updated 7/15/2014 9:30:45 AM ET 2014-07-15T13:30:45

THE ED SHOW
July 14, 2014

Guest: Steve Israel, Gyasi Ross, Ari Rabin-Havt, Peniel Joseph, Mike
Papantonio, James Peterson

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Americans, welcome to the Ed
Show, all the way live from New York. I`m Michael Eric Dyson in for Ed
Schultz. Let`s get to work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNDIENTIFIED MALE: Our borders are not secured no matter what they say.

UNDIENTIFIED MALE: It is a border security issue.

UNDIENTIFIED MALE: Hey, security borders first.

GOV. RICK PERRY, (R) TEXAS: It`s a crisis at hand. It is a problem of
monumental humanitarian impact.

UNDIENTIFIED MALE: Allies in the border certainly is encouraging
misbehavior.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Amnesty is a magnet.

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R) TEXAS: In a while illegal -- in ill children to
say in the United States.

PERRY: Well, you cannot catch a train a bus or speak high or do not fear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are able to detain people and send them back to
their countries.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... essentially back all over the world.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you`ll come to our country illegally, you will be
sent back.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: Our nation like no other began as a nation of others. The tired,
the poor, the huddled mass is yearning to breathe free. We`re the sons and
daughters of immigrants, immigrants who were promised the chance of the
American dream so that they picked themselves up by their boost traps they
too could succeed.

That opportunity for social mobility and success is what makes America
exceptional. But, our belief in American Exceptionalism does not make us
immune to the historical Amnesia which allows generation after generation
of Americans to turn their backs on the latest wave of immigrants coming to
our shores.

As thousands of unaccompanied children continue to cross the U.S. border
and President Obama pressures Congress to help fix the problem, some
Americans are responding with xenophobic hate and betrayal.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are working here.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible) in your country.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: . in your country.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back. Go back home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back you`re on place.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Go home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go back your home now.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFED MALE: Go back.

(CROSSTALK)

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

DYSION: The fear of the other is a dangerous and long festering system of
American Nativism. Few of their children in the country learn English.

The signs in our streets have inscriptions in both languages. Unless the
stream of their importation could be turned, they will soon so outnumber us
that all the advantages we have will not be able to preserve our language
and even our government will become precarious.

Though the sentiment is something you may recognize from the recent
immigration debate, you may be surprised to learn who wrote those words.
Many called him the first American, Benjamin Franklin.

The unfortunate fact is anti-immigration sentiment is as old as America it
self but it`s never too late to get on the right side of history. And
right now we stand at the cross roads.

A new Gallup poll suggested an increasing number of Americans want to see
less immigration to the United States. It rolled from 35 percent in the
last couple of years to 41 percent today. But this issue was far more
complicated than any single poll can capture.

A poll conducted in May by the New York Times shows a 46 percent of
Americans think all immigrants should be welcomed to the United States.
That`s up from 33 percent in 2010 or 24 percent in 2007. The last time
immigration reform failed. The percentage will say there should be no
immigration has dropped to 19 percent.

Here`s the truth. The way we talked about immigration and in turn
immigrants matters. The rhetoric matters. Where you get your information
matters because many people who oppose immigration reform happen to have
another thing in common -- they watch our friends across the street.

According to a survey from the Public Religion Research Institute and the
Broooking Institution, 60 percent of Republicans who trust Fox News the
most believe immigrants are a burden on our country because they take our
jobs, housing, and health care. That`s compared to 60 percent of all
Americans who said they believe immigrants strengthen our country because
of their hard work and talents.

The truth is, this myth that immigrants take our jobs and burden our
economy while bringing crime, drugs, and diseases with them has been used
against different minority groups throughout our countries history.

When we look back on those times in textbooks, we say, "Not again." The
truth is I should have to make a case to humanize the people now trying to
cross our border. I should have to note that 40 percent of Fortune 500
companies were founded by immigrants or first generation Americans. I
shouldn`t have to show images of children in detention centers to make the
case that we have a moral imperative to address the current crisis to
strong policy and procedure.

We should pride ourselves on our national immigration story. It`s part of
what makes our country like no other. But when civilian malicious are
forming telling Americans to go arm to protect the border, we all need to
take a look at whop we were, who we are, and who we want to be.

Get your cell phones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question, "Are we doomed to repeat history if we don`t address immigration
reform?" Text A for yes, text B for no to 67622. or go to our blog at
Ed.MSNBC.com. I`ll bring you the results later in the show.

Joining me now is Congressman Steve Israel of New York. Congressman, what
action do you want Congress to take here in light of this extraordinary
crisis?

REP. STEVE ISRAEL, (D) NEW YORK: Well, there`s several things that have to
happen.

First, the House of Representatives controlled by Republican majority
should pass the Comprehensive Immigration Reform that was passed a year ago
in the Senate on a bipartisan vote. Conservatives and liberals voted for
Comprehensive Immigration Reform for a solution.

It comes to the House of Representatives. It dies. Speaker Boehner has
announced there won`t even be a vote to in a foreseeable future.

Second thing that has to happen, we need more resources, more assets, more
immigration judges, people involved in due process issues at the border.

Third thing that has to happen, we have to make sure working with our
partners in Central America -- in South America, that the conditions exist
for stability and security that no parents in those places has to say to a
child, "Leave the home, walk across the desert, walk across the border into
an uncertain future because that`s of a safer bet for you that staying at
home."

So in those three solution points -- but right now you have a Republican
Congress that is just absolutely disinterested in any solution to this
issue.

DYSON: Well, given the triumph that you`ve articulated so briefly and
eloquently here, you would think that that would make common sense and
people would accept that but you`ve seen the ramp up rhetoric taking place
on the border -- are Americans really ready for immigration reform?

ISRAEL: Yes. In fact, there you -- I listened to some of the poll numbers
that you just sighted, Michael. And they`re instructive but the fact of
the matter is that the fast majority of Americans support Comprehensive
Immigration Reform. And that reform means more effective control in
management of our borders and a path to citizenship for some of those who
came here.

That`s the perfect compromise. It`s a solution that majority of Americans
want. But here`s the problem, the majority of the Republican base doesn`t
want that. And so, the Republicans in the House of Representatives have
decided that they shouldn`t pursue a solution. They should pursue a
strategy and their strategy is designed to get their base out in the
midterm election to try and retain their majority.

Is it an effective political strategy? We`ll see. Is it a solution to
immigration? Absolutely not.

DYSON: We`ll in choosing a strategy over a solution, do you think anything
meaningful will get through Republican opposition?

ISRAEL: How can anybody expect anything meaningful to get passed up
republican opposition when they`re now suing the president? You know, this
is a group of people that time after time has rejected compromising
solutions for a political strategy and obstructionism.

Speaker Boehner just put the death mail for any immigration reform now.
And so, what we`re going to need is democratic majority in the House of
Representatives to join the bipartisan majority in the Senate and get this
bill to the president`s desk once and for all.

DYSON: Well, Republican Shenanigans society and the brutal opposition of
Congress, what do you make of the formation of civilian malicious at the
border?

ISRAEL: It`s awful. That`s not America. That`s not an accurate picture
of America. That is just a small minority of people who are screaming the
loudest. And, you know, I`ll tell you what America is. It`s the Statue of
Liberty. It`s an orderly process that does control our border but it`s
based on good common sense and humanitarianism.

And some of the footage that we`re seeing at the border is extreme -- well,
all the footage that we`re seeing at the border is extreme. And I think
it`s disavowed by most Americans, Democrats and Republicans alike.

DYSON: Surely. No problem. Congressman Israel, thank you so much for
your time tonight.

ISRAEL: Thank you.

DYSON: Now, let me bring in Gyasi Ross, attorney and author of "How to say
I love you" in Indian -- my man. How are you doing, bro?

Brother Ross, this type of uttering or vilification has been used against
minority groups throughout our nation`s history as you well know. The
establishment of the other as something foreign and therefore to be
dismissed and therefore to be demonized is really powerful. Do you think
today`s media though makes maintaining those myths easier or does it make
it harder because after all, the point of having independent media is to be
able to check some of this rubbish?

GYASI ROSS, ATTORNEY, AUTHOR: Yeah. Absolutely. But in the same sentence
when you say you check it, there`s another group obviously that has the
opportunity to highlight it. So as the congressmen so eloquently put,
that`s not America. However, we see those images of Marietta, the
chauvinism, and racism.

And just for a second professor, let`s be very honest. Before we can have
a real conversation about immigration reform, we need to have a
conversation about these folks that are having this more visceral response
to these brown skinned individuals, often times indigenous who are coming
across for very, very mortal fear reasons because their children are in
great danger in their home countries.

And there are provisions and conventions that allow for immigrant children,
for indigenous children, brown-skin children to come across those borders
when their home lands are in strife. However, because of these media
outlets and you know, they certainly have their free press ability to
broadcast, though, the ugliness, those folks are, you know, are harping up
the level of animosity because that is normalizing that reaction that oh,
there are people that feel like this and so it`s okay for us to feel like
this as well.

DYSON: Right. And normalizing is the key term there because it makes it
appear to be inevitable and therefore, acceptable within the context of
American politics and ideology.

ROSS: That`s right.

DYSON: But do you think anti-immigration or anti-immigrants sediment is
something we`re doomed to keep repeating? How do we break that cycle?

ROSS: Well, I think that so long as we deal with this deficit sort of
construct where were -- we see jobs and resources, crime, et cetera, et
cetera, as finite resources and that we have to preserve and as somehow
these folks who are coming across borders that those folks are in
competition, it`s obviously a fiction. It`s a myth.

But as long as we see those people in competition for the jobs that want us
who are established and who have honestly to use a very overused term first
world problems, we`re not in competition for the same jobs as these folks
who are coming across the borders, yet that`s the myth that`s been
propagated. And so long as those outlets continue to propagate that myth,
absolutely, we are doomed to repeat history, professor.

DYSON: You know brother Ross, after seeing this type of reaction, do you
think Americans are ready for immigration reform or does it even matter?

ROSS: Yeah. I think it`s -- I think it matters. The community that I
work most closely with, obviously, is going to be native people. And there
are native people who are very vulnerable. So for example, to whip the
Tohono O`odham people who are on the Mexico border in Arizona. Those folks
have been essentially occupied by border control -- border patrol -- excuse
me. And there been examples of -- within the Tohono O`odham nation of
border patrol shooting Tohono O`odham citizens. This is documented
empirical fact.

And so hopefully, a comprehensive immigration reform would help to address
those sort of micro aggressions and microcosms of this larger discussion so
I don`t think it`s completely lost but I think that we are -- as we talked
about previously, we are doomed to have this conversation and this sort of
xenophobia/racism will continue to go on but we can help to alleviate a
little bit strain for our brothers and sisters in different places along
the border and hopefully make life a little bit easier and, you know,
comprehensible so they know the rules.

Right now, a lot of people simply don`t know the rules.

DYSON: In my book, you`re one of the sharpest young intellectuals we have
out there in the nation, so I know this is a big, big question but briefly,
how does one reconcile a belief in the American dream and American
exceptionalism what the type of anti-immigrant rhetoric that we`re seeing a
really visited today.

ROSS: First of all, thank you very much for those kind words professor.
You know, you`re one of my intellectual heroes and I truly appreciate that.
Number two, regarding how do we reconcile that, I think it`s important that
we do understand as Congressman Israel pointed out that these are the
exceptions.

These people are not unfortunately the loudest microphone often times gets
mistaken for being the rule. And they have the loudest microphone because
they`re performing in ways that are absolutely un-American and are
spectacles. They`re making complete idiots of themselves at the --
unfortunately at the cost of -- it may come -- putting a lot of fear into a
lot of brown-skinned people, a lot of brown-skinned vulnerable children who
are looking to come across the border and brown-skinned people in general.

And that`s fine. That`s their right under the free press and freedom of
expression. However, in reconciling that, I think that Malcolm X, you
know, he said of all of our studies, history is best qualified to reward
our research. And we have to look at history and understand, I think,
there`s a lot of ahistorical people out here. And we have to look at
history and understand that with the exception of the vast majority of my
ancestors, the vast majority of Americans come from immigrant backgrounds.

And that`s fine because that has made America into the amazing creature
that it is today providing those resources, intellectual capital to be able
to build some distractions that we`ve been able to do and make the amazing
government, make the amazing business contributions that we have.

And so as you pointed out these Fortune 500 companies that have been
started by immigrants or first generation folks, we have those sort of
resources that are wanting to come across the border and we have to just
continue to meaningfully and be able to engage that and be able to weed out
.

DYSON: Right.

ROSS: ... you know, those negative influences because we can`t have the
borders open for everybody.

DYSON: Right.

ROSS: That`s accepted.

DYSON: Right.

ROSS: But we have to be able to say that we`re going to do it into a -- in
a way that provides meaning and substances that have just reject everybody.
That`s not reasonable.

DYSON: All right. Gyasi Ross, thank you so much for your time tonight.

ROSS: Thank you, Professor.

DYSON: Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the
screen and share your thoughts on Twitter @edshow and on Facebook. We
really want to know what you think.

Coming up, Rand Paul and Rick Perry duke it out in a war of words. The
Rapid Response Panel weighs in on their 2016 aspirations.

But first, a noted diplomat Chris Christie gives his take on foreign
policy.

Trenders is next. Stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Time now for the Trenders. Keep in touch with us on twitter@edshow
and on Facebook. And you can find me on twitter@michaeledyson.

The Ed Show Social Media Nation has decided and we`re reporting.

Here today`s top Trenders voted on by you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s a storm coming.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The number three Trender, hell, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beach goers in Syberia got pummeled (ph) with a freak
hail storm.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Even on the hottest days in the summer under the
right conditions, balls of ice can fall from the sky.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, how`s the weather up there buddy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wild weather has rushing beach goers running for cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sunbathers and swimmers ran for cover when the storm
came in with no warning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s going to leave a mark.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The number two Trender, kick offs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stand up for Argentina who have defended their lives.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The World Cup final gets bumped for a weather warning
in upstate New York.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: WENY in the New York-Pennsylvania border interrupted
the Germany-Argentina World Cup Finale in just five minutes left in over
time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Played it very, very .

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The reports now due to the fact that a tornado warning
has been issued for parts of our viewing area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People in the area didn`t take it calmly with their
soccer being interrupted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Calm down, Greg. It`s soccer. It`s soccer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And today`s top Trender, criss-cross.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) NEW JERSEY: Every time I think I`m going to run
out of things to say about the president of the United States.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New Jersey Governor Chris Christie chimed in on
foreign policy slamming the president.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Christie says his piece about President Obama`s Mid-
East policy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was critical of the president on the issue of
Israel.

CHRISTIE: Are you stupid? On topic. On topic.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today, Israel is not sure that they have America`s
full support like they used to.

CHRISTIE: That is a complete pile of garbage.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the unrest you see the Middle East is caused
in some measure by the fact that this president has not acted in a
decisive, consistent way.

CHRISTIE: I am who I am but I am not a bully.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: Joining me now is Ari Rabin-Havt, host of the Agenda on SiriusXM
radio. I got caught in Chris Christie`s denunciation of the notion that
he`s a bully.

So, is Chris Christie qualified to speak on foreign policy?

ARI RABIN-HAVT, HOST, SIRIUSXM "THE AGENDA": Chris Christie behaving
unpresidential, Michael, really? No, he`s not qualified to speak on
foreign policy. What struck me is he criticized the president then he was
asked, "Well, would you send troops?" and he said, "Well, I`m not
president, so I`m not going to answer that." And thankfully, I don`t think
he`ll ever be president so we`ll never have to worry about Chris Christie
answering that question because frankly, I don`t want him to.

DYSON: Yeah. Well, brother Ari, is this is a big indication in your mind
that the governor still has 2016 ambitions? You say that he will never be
president but he`s got those ambitions lined up, right?

RABIN-HAVT: There are a lot of Republicans with ambitions that are never
going to come true.

Chris Christie, look, he`s had ambitions all along. I`ve always said, "You
got a guy like Chris Christie who -- he`s shtick in New Jersey, his
bullying shtick plays well, he goes out to Iowa for the caucuses, he`s
going to run into some Republican voters who disagree with him and shtick`s
not going to play well out there regardless of what you think of his
policies. His politics aren`t going to work in a Republican caucus in Iowa
and that`s going to doom his presidential campaign if that`s what he wants
to do.

DYSON: Well, let`s play a game of make believe. Let`s, for a second,
imagine a world with President Chris Christie. How do you .

RABIN-HAVT: You`re scaring me.

DYSON: How do you think his tough-guy style would play in the
international diplomatic field?

RABIN-HAVT: I don`t think it would work and I don`t think he would do it
and I don`t think it would be realistic and I think to have -- you can be
bellicose and push people around as governor and you can pretend you`re a
tough guy. But when it comes to diplomacy, diplomacy is about new ones,
diplomacy is about coming together, diplomacy is about working with people,
some of whom, you don`t even like and Chris Christie has proven no
abilities to do any of that.

DYSON: Yeah. Yeah, it`s pretty unfortunate. So, switching topics .

RABIN-HAVT: Yeah.

DYSON: . another Republican trying to get back-ends of the spotlight spoke
out today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DICK CHENEY, FMR. VICE PRESIDENT, BUSH ADMINISTRATION: I feel very
strongly about what`s going on over there now. Just as I did when we made
a decision of going to Iraq in 03, I believe in it then, I looked back on
it now, it was absolutely the right thing to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DYSON: Now, there`s no surprise, Cheney was met with fierce protest
outside today`s event. What`s your reaction to Cheney`s continued defense
of the Iraq war?

RABIN-HAVT: I`m just amazed people are still paying attention. Why don`t
we go to Michael Brown and get tips on how to run FEMA, we go to Bernie
Madoff for some stock tips and, you know, you can go to Dick Cheney to
learn what to do in the Middle East.

The man was an abject failure, the worst Vice President in our nation`s
history, led us to the greatest foreign policy disaster that we`ve seen in
the last 20 years. And, you know, I wish he would just go away and it`s
amazing that anybody in the media takes him seriously. Like, look, Dick
Cheney wants a platform, I get that, but the idea that we are paying
attention to him, that the media is paying attention to him, that anybody
takes him seriously is a joke.

DYSON: Well, the fact is you`re absolutely right. Many would agree with
you but on the other hand, people say, "Look, this is a man of certain
accomplishment, the vice president of the United States of America." but on
the other hand, making such decisions that have led us down on such a
disastrous path. Why doesn`t he pay more for that in terms of his
reputation? He`s out there constantly haranguing the president but he
doesn`t really pay for, I think, in an effectively fair fashion for what he
did to this nation.

RABIN-HAVT: Because being bellicose about foreign policy, because bombing
other countries and invading them indiscriminately means you never have to
say you`re sorry. I mean, I remember people were drummed off of
television. We`re drummed out of foreign policy circles for suggesting
going to war in Iraq was a bad idea. It`s actually really disgusting to me
that Dick Cheney hasn`t been drummed out of those same circles with all of
his ilk for being just as wrong.

DYSON: Now, how do we contrast, just very briefly, George W. Bush`s
renaissance relatively speaking in comparison to Dick Cheney? Is he the
hingeman (ph) who`s out front visibly articulating what the former
president believes? Or do you think this is a true contrast between their
personas?

RABIN-HAVT: Well, I think, it`s a persona contrast. I`m sure George Bush
still believes he did the right thing. Dick Cheney is trying to promote a
political career for his daughter. He wants to remain relevant. He
clearly has a view point he wants to express. It just happens to be dead
wrong.

DYSON: Yeah. Well, when you think about being dead wrong and he`s got a
daughter to promote, the broader issue here is how former politicians weigh
in on the events of the day while maintaining a certain kind of
presidential in this case or at least vice presidential presence and at the
same time, deferring to those powers that be. Dick Cheney doesn`t seem to
recognize or at least acknowledge that kind of rule.

RABIN-HAVT: I mean, does that separate him from Republicans who refuse to
recognize or acknowledge Barack Obama`s president or refuse to recognize or
acknowledge the executive authority he has? He`s just way in line with
every other Republican out there on that.

DYSON: Yeah, no doubt. Ari Rabin-Havt, thank you so much for joining us
here tonight.

RABIN-HAVT: Thank you Michael.

DYSON: Still ahead, Rand Paul puts Rick Perry in his crosshairs as he eyes
the 2016 run. Rapid Response Panel weighs in on the clashing
conservatives.

Plus, a reality check for Mama Grizzly`s limelight and being in the
Pretenders tonight.

But next, I`m taking your questions. Ask MED live is just ahead. Stay
tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Welcome back to the Ed Show. We love hearing from our viewers
tonight in the Ask MED Live.

Our question is from Gary. Do you think the Republicans will impeach
President Obama if they win the senate in November?

You know, Gary, in all honesty, I want to us to be able to say no that
there will be enough reserve, enough calm, enough dignity in that chamber
which is ostensibly the most judicious of all governing bodies in our
nation. And yet at the same time, the captivity and indeed the hijacking
of the Republican Party by the far right extreme of the Tea Party gives me
great pause and hesitation about thinking that, "Hey, this Senate might
just make the attempt to impeach President Obama." I don`t think it`ll be
effective but if the desire is in question, I think the desire is real.

Our next question is from Jordan, "What would the Republicans want
President Obama to do once he arrived at the border?" Your answer, your
guess is as god as mind. What do they want them to do? Shot things down?
Turn those kids around? Disallow them, on tray into the nation? Send them
back immediately packing to believe that they are somehow the visible signs
of the horrible things happening in this nation is simply the pile on where
their needs -- no -- needs to be no more paling on.

The xenophobia, the extraordinary racism, the ethnic purging that we see
going on here, it makes me not proud to be an American but makes me ashamed
to believe that America could do this. We are better than that. We must
stand up. And I think the president is taking the safe and effective
measure of trying to calm us down so that we can have some insight and some
critical, I think political courage around these issues.

Stick around. The Rapid Response Panel is next.

MILISSA REHBERGER, CNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Milissa Rehberger with your
Market Wrap. The Dow gained 111 points closing back about 17,000. The S&P
is at nine and Nasdaq added about 25.

Citigroup reported earnings that manage to beat estimates, the results
included in $3.8 billion charge related to a settlement with the Justice
Department. Several other financial companies report results this week.
And gas prices have dropped 4 cents several last three weeks to 367 per
gallon, thanks to the following crude prices.

The ED Show continues after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Welcome back to the ED Show. Republican`s Rand Paul and Rick Perry
are in a war of words of reform policy.

(BEGIN VEDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You really ripped your fellow Republican Rand Paul on
an Op-Ed in Saturday`s Washington Post, you said, your words, "Obama`s
policy certainly led us to this dangerous point in Iraq and Syria, but
Paul`s brand of isolationism or whether term he prefers would compound the
threat of terrorism even further." Well he responded today, he said,
"Unlike Governor Perry, I am opposed to sending American troops back into
Iraq. I support continuing our assistance to the government of Iraq. I
support using the advance technology to prevent ISIS from becoming a
threat."

RICK PERRY: I disagree with Senator Paul`s representation of what America
should be doing and when you read his Op-Ed in the Wall Street Journal he
talks about basically what I consider to be isolation as policies. And
America can no longer come back on to the continental United States and
draw a red line around the shore of America and think that we`re somehow or
they`re not going to be impacted.

(END VEDIO CLIP)

DYSON: Kentucky Senator Rand Paul who also happens to be an
ophthalmologist gave this caving respond in an political Op-Ed today. He
wrote, "Apparently his new glasses haven`t altered his perception of the
world, or allowed him to see it any more clearly." Senator John McCain
who`s reportedly friends with both Paul and Perry express his opinion of
their spat on Sunday.

(BEGIN VEDIO CLIP)

JOHN MCCAIN: I`m not particularly interested in getting between Sen. Paul
and Gov. Perry but I do believe that the things we`re seeing in the world
today, in greater turmoil and in anytime in my lifetime is a direct of
result of an absence of American leadership and we are paying a very, very
heavy price now and we will in the future until we decide to understand
that America is an essential role in maintaining peace and stability
throughout the world and that does not mean sending combat troops ...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Right.

MCCAIN: ... everywhere.

(END VEDIO CLIP)

DYSON: Neither Paul nor Perry has announced plans for presidential run in
2016 but they`re clearly buying for attention. Joining me now as our Rapid
Response Panel, Dr. Peniel Joseph, Professor of African-American Studies at
Tufts University also Mike Papantonio, Host of Ring of Fire Radio.

Professor Peniel Joseph, does this fight have a point beyond them fighting?

DR. PENIEL JOSEPH, TUFTS UNIVERSITY: Well I think it`s both them fighting
Michael but I also think it stake out two important positions in the 2016
Republican primaries. I think Paul`s position in this case is not what we
call classic isolationism. It`s really a position that strikes closer to
what the president has done, which is to use American power judiciously and
I think that`s going to gain a lot of traction in the 2016 primaries.

I think Rick Perry on the other hand is rehabilitating his image from a
disastrous 2012 run. And his take on this is basically to double down and
say, "Well, he would be willing to spend more American blood and treasure
in Iraq." And that has real traction, especially from people like Dick
Cheney and others who complain that the President didn`t finish the job.
So they`re staking out two different positions that actually both will gain
support.

I suspect that Rand Paul`s position has more grass roots support among
conservatives.

DYSON: Mike, in light of what Peniel has indicated in term of his analysis
of the buying and contentious relations between those two. Do you think
Democrats can use the GOP fighting and infighting on foreign policy to
their advantage?

MIKE PAPANTONIO, HOST OF RING OF FIRE RADIO: I think absolutely, I think
you`re seeing signs of the same kind of third party movement we`ve been
hearing about when we heard Sarah Palin a few weeks ago say, "Gees, she`s
no longer part of this GOP ideology." Right now, for example, you have
Rand Paul squarely lining up in a way that scares the Jesus out of the GOP.

Look, what is he talking about? He`s talking about the expansion of
militarism and you`ve got that always has been kind of branded the
Republican Party. On the other side, you`ve got the establishment, Rick
Perry, you know, he`s talking about GOP leadership, embracing this
unrestrained cowboy, kind of reckless military expansion, which is
generally been the talking point for the GOP.

Add to that, what we hear Rand Paul talking about on issues like NSA, how
he suspicious of the NSA, how we have to take them under control. These
are fundamental parts Michael, of a division that`s taken place in the GOP
and it`s very easy to understand it. The twist on this is you have
billionaire inheritance that is like -- they like to all themselves
libertarians, the Koch brothers for example.

For decades they`ve been trying to either control the establishment of the
GOP or in the alternative, they`ve been trying to launch this viable third
party, they come from a libertarian background. In the process, what they
have created is this division that we see in these editorials. They`ve
weaken the GOP by creating this Tea Party type friends within the GOP
that`s represented clearly by Rand Paul.

And while doing that they empowered these loopy alternatives, like Sarah
Palin and Ted Cruz, he`ll appear to be more willing to form this new right-
wing, almost libertarian party. So ...

DYSON: OK.

PAPANTONIO: ... I read a lot more into these editorials that are crossing
when you take it together with other developments that we`ve been seeing in
the past weeks.

DYSON: Well Peniel, in light of that, you know, adding more freight and
more drama to the (inaudible) squabbles between in the GOP, you got to look
at it in terms of Rand Paul`s recent political Op-Ed, where he said the
following, "On foreign policy, Perry couldn`t be more stuck in the past,
doubling down on formulas that haven`t worked parroting rhetoric that
doesn`t make sense and reinforcing petulant attitudes that have cost our
nation a great deal. If repeating the same mistakes over and over again is
what Perry advocates in U.S. foreign policy, or in any other policy, he
really should run for president. In Washington, he`d fit right in, because
leading Republicans and Democrats not only supported the Iraq war in the
first place, but leaders of both parties campaigned on it on 2008."

That`s a mouthful, that`s interesting in light of our earlier dissection of
the difference between isolationism and the kind of classic judiciousness
that the Obama/Biden presidency and vice presidency has deployed, so what`s
you`re reaction to this rather, if you will pointed arguments of Rand
Paul`s?

JOSEPH: Well it really scares the hell out of the GOP establishment,
because when we think about what he`s saying, he`s basically saying that he
were president it wouldn`t be business as usual and that the entire party
should actually have a different perspective on military intervention.
Because historically, it`s not just that the Republicans in the post war
period have been historic hoax, we`ve have Democratic hoax and Republican
hoax.

It`s after 9/11 Michael that the Republican Party brand this preemptive
war, an intervention to spread democracy has been their mantra over the
last 13 years. Paul is suggesting a break from this which scares the hell
out of the establishment.

DYSON: Right. So Mike, do you agree with that? Do the preempt that --
you`re relegating the preempt that the times in past scares the heck out of
the right-wing, because they want to have that bully pulpit to be able to
threaten the world, so to speak? And do you think this is a preview of the
kind of counter attacks Rand Paul will have to use in a 2016 debate
setting?

PAPANTONIO: Well I think what scare them the most Michael, is this
continued division, this ringing within the GOP that gets -- keeps getting
worst. Look, what is the brand of this thing that they`re trying to create
within the party? Is this uncompromising gaggle of ideologist, they`re pro
Rand economics, every man, woman and child for themselves, they`re total
Laissez-faire capitalism, they`re antigovernment of any kind, the part of
Bundy, for example. They`re anti-environment, they`re anti-regulation,
none of these resonates in a broad way with the American publics.

So these division that`s talking place, my prediction is it`s going to
continue, you`re going to see somebody say, you know, we just need to break
away. At some point Rand Paul does not line up with Rich Perry or Karl
Rove or any of the leadership that we`ve seen historically in the GOP.
This is a very important moment.

So the choice is, we`ve got Perry who leaves us with endless military
expansion or we`ve got Rand Paul who leaves us with economic ruin. And so
either way if you take a look at it, it`s bad for the Republican party, the
Democrats should be able to capitalize on this, all they have to do is
think about how to use these different angles. And one thing is for sure,
there`s a change taken place in the GOP, it`s not easily solve and it
potentially could really do harm to the GOP going to forward in the next
couple of decades.

DYSON: All right, Peniel Joseph and Mike Papantonio, thank you so very
much.

PAPANTONIO: Thank you Michael.

JOSEPH: Thank you.

DYSON: Coming up, violence in Chicago continues as dept tolls rise this
weekend. James Peterson joins me to discuss what the city can do to curve
violence and to begin to heal.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: In Pretenders tonight, Busted. Sarah Palin, the governor gone
rogue is complaining about President Obama`s time in front of the camera.
Palin says, "The President`s fancy talking and photo-opin aren`t
impeachable offences, they`re just offensive."

Keep in mind, Sarah Palin used her entire campaign for vice president as a
gateway to the lime lake (ph).

(BEGIN VEDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her public life has been highly choreographed, include
she`s stop in Washington today on the back of a motor cycle.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sarah Palin rolling back into the spotlight Sunday,
kicking off here east coast bus tour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Palin spoke about this moment, her sharing of a pizza
moment with Donald Trump in Time Square last night.

SARAH PALIN: I bet everybody who came to New York wanted to go in
(inaudible).

(END VEDIO CLIP)

DYSON: Sarah Palin doesn`t understand the reality of running a government.
She only understands reality TV. She couldn`t manage one full term as
governor, yet she`s pulled off reality shows. Sarah Palin wants President
Obama to stop showing up in front of the cameras. Visibility is a
legitimate part of holding office.

For Palin, visibility is a payday. If Sarah Palin think hypocrisy shows
off her humility, she can keep on pretending.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

DYSON: Welcome back to the Ed Show. During a bloody fourth of July
weekend in Chicago, at least 82 people were shot and killed and 16 -- 82
were shot and 16 were killed. This past weekend had a promising warm
forecast and help the final days of the taste of Chicago, the largest food
festival in the world. The (inaudible) atmosphere in the city met an early
end.

By the time Friday rolled around, locals brace themselves for yet another
round of senseless violence. One resident plan to skip the nice weather
and social gatherings all together.

Linda Hayes told the Chicago Tribune, she plan to barricade herself
indoors, "When I hear gun shots, I`ll just fall to the floor, then I hear
the police sirens, I`ll know it`s OK to get up."

Unfortunately she was not speaking in extremes but the reality of survival.
The violence in Chicago did not slow down. Twenty-one people were shot
between Friday night and Saturday morning in the city. As the weekend came
to a close, at least 28 people in total have been wounded by gun fire and
three had died. Many of the victims were teenagers, but the bullets had no
discretion. One witness recounted the scene when a 16 year old neighbor
was shot.

(BEGIN VEDIO CLIP)

ANTONIO SHELBY, GUN VIOLENCE WITNESS: The police sit there and the boys
went back this way and he kept running this way, you heard them shooting
there right here, over 40 shots.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you make them all look this entire situation?

SHELBY: I don`t know, the police bogus, the police bogus.

(END VEDIO CLIP)

DYSON: The tension between residents and law enforcement is palpable, the
blame can not funnel to anyone`s face. With the officers are over fatigue,
their gun laws are too lacks (ph), their gang is too prevalent, the
severity of Chicago`s neighborhood warfare is only there to exacerbate with
each finger pointed.

Joining me to now to dissect Chicago`s violence, Dr. James Peterson,
Director of Africana Studies and Associate Professor of English at Lehigh
University and an MSNBC Contributor. Dr. Peterson, what flows are you
seeing in the conversation on Chicago`s violence?

DR. JAMES PETERSON, LEHIGH UNIVERSITY: I think there are couple of flows.
Number one, we`re really good at sort of counting the data, we`re good at
sort of presenting the statistics, the homicide rates, the number of young
people who are murdered and anyone, particular time.

We`re also pretty good at sort of coming up with these kind of propped up
out of nowhere responses that are not really solution oriented. You know,
someone talked about bring the national guard in, I think about a week ago
or so. And so those are some of the problems in how we approach it. The
reason why the quantitative approach doesn`t work so well here doc, is
because we act to those two things, one, we need a better qualitative
senses of what`s going on there in order to come up with the kinds of
solutions that I think might actually work there.

Obviously we don`t need more -- any kind of military presence or more
police. The police are working hard and in fact they`ve done some really
effective work, particularly along the lines of managing some of the gang
problems there. But this is not all gang related, you know, there`s common
sense gun safety/gun control issues here, the underwriting issues here
obviously have to do with access to jobs and economic development, you
know, these neighborhoods that represent the 80 percent or more of the
homicide statistics that we keep tracking here, our neighborhoods that have
been systematically underdeveloped for scores of years.

And so, if we really are interested as nation, in addressing the violence
problem in Chicago, then we`ve got to be talking about the structural
issues here. And the main ones here are about access -- economic access to
jobs and obviously reformation of the public school system there.

DYSON: Well yesterday I said in Riverside Church what the blessing, the
really baptism of my grandson Maxim (ph). And as his grandmother Marcia
and his father (inaudible) and want his mother and his brother Mosey (ph),
we all concluded, listening to Father Pfleger from Chicago that he was
telling a powerful truth, because he said it was genocide. What do you
think about that kind of philosophical argument that what do we see going
on here is an attempt to subvert an entire group of people to whether
intentionally and not through policies that have failed and through
practices that continue to target them with vicious particularity?

PETERSON: Yeah, whether or not people like to apply the term genocide to
intercity violence in America or to intercity violence in Chicago itself,
doesn`t matter. The consequences of -- that`s where the data is important.
The consequences of it are quite clear. And again, we can`t throw our
hands up here, you know, it seems sort of a immediate reaction to me to say
we need more police here or we need people to stop behaving badly, that is
absurd. If people ever been to Chicago and I`ve been there several times,
each year over the last several years working with school children, you
know, you can tell like there`s downtown Chicago, those beautiful tree
line, street`s clean, beautiful city.

But you go into some of those neighborhoods that are under duress and it`s
the opposite of that. And the reality is that the Chicago city proper is
also responsible for the underdevelopment of some of its neighborhoods.
This takes sustain commitment to economic development, it`s a sustain
commitment to sort of revolutionary ways of thinking about reforming our
public educational system and that`s the only kind of investment that will
long term address these problems.

We can talk about some of the additional policies use, I think there is,
you know, people say the city of Chicago has great gun control, maybe they
do. But the suburb of Chicago does not.

And so the reality is there are policies we can talk about and that has to
do with like think like access to healthcare, common sense gun safety,
educational reform but there`s also -- we do need community effort here too
doc. And there are lots of people in the community of Chicago who are
doing great work, they just don`t always have the resource or the platform
of that folk know that they`re out and what they`re doing.

DYSON: Is Rahm Emanuel focusing enough attention on this issue?

PETERSON: Well you have to say no at this point. I mean Mayor Emanuel was
very, very talented politician but at the end of the day, I`m not sure if
he understands exactly how complex this particular problem is. What I do
know is he knows that it requires a lot of resources and I`m not sure about
his strategy for trying to address it.

You know, again, this is not a policing situation here, we`re talking about
the very fabric of a community, we`re talking about the erosion of
residential life, we`re talking about the inability children to be able to
walk safely to and from school. These are the kinds of issues that require
more than just a mayor. These are the kinds of issues that then require
the entire community, probably require some statutory support at the state
level as well as some federal support from the federal government in order
to understand and acknowledge the ways ...

DYSON: OK.

PETERSON: ... in which Chicago has been systematically underdeveloped
overtime.

DYSON: No doubt about it`s. James Peterson, Professor of Africana Studies
at Lehigh, thank you so much for your time.

PETERSON: Thanks doc.

DYSON: That`s the Ed Show, I`m Michael Eric Dyson in for Ed Schultz.
Politics Nation with the Reverend Al Sharpton starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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