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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, July 16th, 2014

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July 16, 2014

Guest: Xavier Becerra, Robert Reich, Peter Gleick

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight we are ALL IN.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We aren`t monsters here in this country.

HAYES (voice-over): Backlash to the backlash. Growing movement
against the anti-immigrant ugliness. Some label the migrant kids

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re gang members. They`re gang affiliates.

HAYES (voice-over): Tonight we examine the truth behind the gang

Then, carnage in Gaza: four kids playing soccer by the sea, killed by
an Israeli shell. Ayman Mohyeldin saw it all happen. He`ll join us from

Plus, the water crisis in California spawns record fines. Liberals
rallied a recruitment for Elizabeth Warren for president and Republicans
get busted using a spycam at Democratic fundraisers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That guy has a really ugly shirt on. His house
is very `80s.

ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes.

Today a shift in the momentum of the political controversy surrounding
unaccompanied migrant children who have come to the border. Earlier today
House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi reversed her position on calls for
expedited deportations, telling "The New York Times," a bill introduced by
Texas Democratic Henry Cuellar that would speed up deportations, quote, "is
exactly the wrong way to go," asking, "Is the only immigration bill we`re
going to have one that hurts children?"

Republicans have been pushing deportation as the solution to the
humanitarian crisis on the border. And for a time, it looked like
Democrats would be going -- willing to go along with those efforts.

The White House itself has said it favors changes to a 2008 law that
would allow children from Central America to be deported more easily. We
are now seeing a number of Democrats, including Nancy Pelosi, saying
deportations are not the solution to the humanitarian crisis.

Maryland Governor Democrat Martin O`Malley came out strongly against
expedited deportations last week.


GOV. MARTIN O`MALLEY (D), MD.: Think about the sort of country we
want to leave to our children. We are not a country that should turn
children away and send them back to certain death.


HAYES: Congressman Luis Gutierrez has spoken out forcefully about the
need to guarantee those children due process.


REP. LUIS GUTIERREZ (D), ILL.: They get their day in court as the law
mandates. I plan to support the president`s budget request, but we must
make sure we do not short circuit justice for the children. And I think
all of us agree that that is a top priority.

HAYES (voice-over): And yesterday Los Angeles Mayor Eric Garcetti
said that Los Angeles would be taking some of the migrant children in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your city is pretty compassionate towards

So would you take some of those kids while they`re being --


MAYOR ERIC GARCETTI (D), LOS ANGELES: We`re going to. Yes, we`ve
already talked to HHS, who reached out to us. Many of their parents are

Before you get partisan, before you tell me where you are on
immigration, these are children. Let`s get them some place safe and
secure. Let`s get them legal representation which is what this city, this
country has always stood for.


HAYES: Joining me now, Xavier Becerra of California, chair of the
House Democratic Caucus and a member of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.

Congressman Becerra, where is the Hispanic Caucus on this issue right
now as this gets debated in Congress?

REP. XAVIER BECERRA (D), CALIF.: Chris, I think the Hispanic Caucus
members are pretty solidly behind the effort to make sure that we deal with
the humanitarian crisis, but not by stripping protections and due process
rights from children. How we treat children will speak volumes of who we
are as a country.

HAYES: But you seem to have an uphill battle, though, ahead of you.
It seems that both the White House, the White House on one side, Cuellar
and Cornyn, which is the bipartisan bill that`s been introduced, and the
Far Right flank of this discussion, which is the Issa-Hunter bill that`s
been introduced, all of them are in agreement the 2008 law needs to be
revised, all of them are seeking faster deportation.

Are they all wrong?

BECERRA: Well, I think all of us are seeking for a swifter route to
justice. And so that means that these children shouldn`t have to wait
years to have their case processed.

And so for them to have an opportunity to be represented and have
their case heard, I believe the president made it pretty clear today when
he met with many of us from the Hispanic Caucus that what he is looking for
is the means to be able to work through these cases so these children have
their day in court.

So I don`t think the president is asking us to strip due process.
What I do believe he`s saying is that we must act and act swiftly, because
we can`t continue to see a humanitarian crisis on our border just persist.

HAYES: Do you think that this debate has brought out the best or
worst in American discussion of immigration?

It seems to me some of the loudest voices have been the ugliest. But
I`ve been seeing many, many reports about churches and neighborhoods taking
people in, inviting children in. This was some -- a statement from the
Catholic Diocese in San Bernardino, California. Take a listen.


also want to let them know that there are people here in the United States
who love and support them, they`re praying with them and for them and that
maybe that could give them some of that spiritual food for the next leg of
their journey.


HAYES: How do you think our reaction as a country has been when faced
with these tens of thousands of unaccompanied children?

BECERRA: I think the answer is all of the above, a little bit of
good, a little bit of bad. But I think for the most part Americans
recognize that when you`re talking about children, it`s different.

These are innocents, they`re people that are not yet at the point of
being able to make judgment calls. How they`re able to travel these
distances and still be alive is amazing to many of us. But what we do
recognize is that but for the grace of God goes my child. And so I think
most Americans are very good about saying, let`s be fair.

But let`s also respect the fact that we`re a sovereign nation and we
have to know how to treat those who are trying to come into this country.

HAYES: If I had talked to you after Election Day in 2012 and said,
two years from now you`re going to be in the midst of a debate about more
money for border enforcement and a debate that centers on how quickly you
can deport children, what would you have said then?

BECERRA: I would have said then what I`d say now. This is why we
need to fix a broken immigration system. This is why Republican
leadership, stifling a vote in the House for more than 380 days -- that`s
how long it`s been since the Senate passed its bipartisan bill to fix the
broken immigration system.

It`s crazy. We should have done this a long time ago; we probably
wouldn`t be where we are today with the crisis, the humanitarian crisis at
the border, had we passed the common sense fix to the broken immigration

And so, Chris, this is what happens when Congress does nothing. And
this shut down, do-nothing politics that`s being played in the House of
Representatives is corrosive.

HAYES: Congressman Xavier Becerra, thank you so much.

BECERRA: Thank you.

HAYES: If you`ve been listening to some of the uglier rhetoric,
you`ve likely heard people talking about migrant children from Central
America bringing poverty and disease.

Well, Republican Congressman Rich Nugent of Florida is worried about
another thing; gangs.


REP. RICH NUGENT (R), FLA.: Listen, if you`re 15, 16, 14, 15, 16, 17
years old, and you`re coming from a country that`s gang infested,
particularly with, you know, MS-13 types, you know, the most -- that is the
most aggressive of all of street gangs.

When you have those types coming across the border, they`re not
children at that point. These kids have been brought up in a culture of,
you know, of thievery, a culture of murder, of rape, all those types of
things and we`re going to now infuse them into the American culture. It`s
just ludicrous.


HAYES: Nugent is worried about Central American migrants bringing
gang culture into the United States. But there`s a strong argument to be
made that the process actually worked in reverse, that U.S. policy helped
push gangs into Central America through decades of drug wars, waged across
a hemisphere.

Earlier this week, Honduran President Juan Hernandez argued as much,
arguing the root cause is that migration -- is that "`the United States and
Colombia carried out big operations in the fight against drugs. Then
Mexico did it.` Those operations pushed drug traffickers into Honduras,
Guatemala and El Salvador, he suggested, adding, `This is creating a
serious problem for us that sparked this migration.`"

The American drug war, which has been exported all over the
hemisphere, first to Colombia, then to Mexico, has, in some very narrow
ways in those two countries been quite successful.

But success for one country like, say, Colombia has been a disaster,
arguably for Central American countries like Honduras, Guatemala and El

Joining me now is professor of public policy at UC Berkeley, Secretary
of Labor Robert Reich, who stars in the documentary based on his work,
"Inequality for All."

And, Bob, you made this point the other day that as we talk about this
crisis unfolding, it`s not like the U.S. has had no role to play in the
dire straits in which these three Central American countries now find

implicated in a variety of ways. Number one, we are the customers. I
mean, if there weren`t a lot of Americans seeking marijuana and heroin and
cocaine, how did cocaine -- you know, there would not be a drug war, there
would not be violence.

Central America and Mexico are the corridors, the highways taking all
of these drugs to American customers.

And secondly, we`re implicated because, for years, we have poured
billions of dollars into Mexico and now to some extent Central America,
actually creating a drug war, a very violent drug war that has made the
price of these drugs even higher on the black market and attracted more
violence in its wake.

HAYES: We`ve also executed this perverse success, particularly in
Colombia and Mexico in which there`s a squeezing the balloon problem. We
all remember what Colombia looked like in the 1980s and there something
called Plan Colombia, which is almost a billion dollars of U.S. money in a
very militarized response. That was successful in largely eradicating a
lot of the criminal activity and drug production in Colombia, but it has
simply pushed it somewhere else.

REICH: Yes. It`s like a balloon or a mattress. What`s happened, as
long as you have got customers here in the United States -- and by the way,
the evidence suggests that there has been no drop in drug consumption in
the United States at all, or in the movement across the border of Central
America and also Mexico.

But the more you actually push in one area, the more you`re going to
have it move to someplace else. It`s exactly what`s happened in Central
America. That`s why these children are really refugees, child refugees of
a drug war that is our making.

HAYES: The point you made there, I think is crucial, also. The drug
war that`s been undertaken over the last 30 years particularly has not
moved in any kind of discernible fashion the levels of drug consumption in
the United States.

REICH: It`s been a complete failure. Even the prestigious Council of
Foreign Affairs has recently stated in a report that the drug war is a
failure. I mean, we have certain states. We have Colorado and Washington
that have legalized marijuana. That`s a step in the right direction.

But we have got to decriminalize and regulate these drugs in the long
term. Now that`s not going to solve the problem on the border right now.
With regard to these children and many of them are refugees from these drug
wars, we do have to very quickly figure out how many are in fact refugees.
And if they are refugees from our drug war, we`ve got to help them.

This is a humanitarian issue. How many of our forefathers, our
fathers, grandparents, great-grandparents were refugees from foreign wars
or from foreign dangers?

I mean, this is a principle that the United States has followed for
years. That is, we honor our humanitarian instincts, to open our gates to
people who desperately need to come here, not to force them back to death.

HAYES: Particularly when they are many saying that they face upon
return certain death and there`s this kind of bloodless language you see in
some of the legislation being proposed, that it is our job to, quote,
"safely repatriate them," if that is not a possibility, then it seems we
should be clear-eyed about exactly what we`re doing if we send them back.

REICH: Chris, let me just ask you, when did our country become so
mean-spirited? I watched the pictures of these people at the border,
yelling at these kids, yelling at people who may be in very -- in grave
danger if they go back?

And I think to myself about not only our ancestors, but also the
Statue of Liberty. I mean, "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled
masses yearning to breathe free." The principle on which this nation is
based is to welcome people who desperately need to come here.

HAYES: Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, thank you so much.

REICH: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: All right. The scarcity of water in California has always
been a big problem.


"J. J. GITTES": Going to be a lot of irate citizens when they find
out that they`re paying for water that they`re not going to get.

"NOAH CROSS": Oh, that`s all taken care of. See, Mr. Gittes, either
you bring the water to L.A. or you bring L.A. to the water. See, Mr.
Gittes, most people never have to face the fact that at the right time and
the right place, they`re capable of anything.


HAYES: California`s water fight in real life has gotten even worse,
neighbor versus neighbor on social media ahead.


HAYES: Through the windows of a hotel in Gaza City a reporter saw
children playing soccer on the beach and then mortar fire. And four
Palestinian children were killed. One of those reporters, NBC News` own
Ayman Mohyeldin was kicking a ball with those children just a few minutes
before they were killed. He joins me next.



defend itself from rocket attacks that terrorize the Israeli people.
There`s no country on Earth that can be expected to live under a daily
barrage of rockets.

Over the past two weeks we`ve all been heartbroken by the violence,
especially the death and injury of so many innocent civilians in Gaza. The
Israeli people and the Palestinian people don`t want to live like this.
They deserve to live in peace and security free from fear.


HAYES: For the first time in nine days of violence, the people of
Gaza will have five hours of relief from Israel`s aerial bombardment to
receive humanitarian aid from outside the territory`s borders. Israel has
agreed to a U.N.-brokered humanitarian cease-fire beginning tomorrow
morning local time allowing aid to get through to the 25-mile strip of land
which has been devastated by nine days of shelling and missile strikes,
leaving 223 Palestinians dead and at least 1,600 injured.

Israel is saying they`ll honor the pause for five hours. And Hamas
now reportedly also signing on; 113 rockets have been fired into Israel
from Gaza over just the last day with one Israeli killed since the conflict

A halt in military operations comes as Hamas having now officially
rejected Egypt`s proposed cease-fire, reportedly offered their own terms
for a 10-year truce, including the release of prisoners arrested during the
hunt for the three missing Israeli teens who were later found dead, the
opening of borders with Israel and Egypt and U.N. supervision of Gaza`s

Meanwhile, as a growing chorus across the Israeli political spectrum
calls for a full ground invasion, the prospect of boots on the ground in
Gaza seems ever more likely. Earlier today before the humanitarian cease-
fire was declared, some of the most harrowing images we`ve seen in this
conflict began to emerge out of Gaza City.

While playing soccer on the beach, four Palestinian boys were killed
and several others wounded by what witnesses describe as artillery shells
from a nearby navy ship. The incident occurred outside the window of
international journalists staying at a hotel just across the street,
including our own Ayman Mohyeldin, who had been kicking the ball with those
same boys just minutes earlier.

According to reports, the first explosion left a small shack burning
on the jetty, sending the boys running for cover. Thirty seconds later, a
second shell hit. As the smoke cleared, journalists and other onlookers
rushed to the beach to help the injured boys.

Jonathan Miller of the U.K.`s Channel 4, tweeting, "Children wounded
by shrapnel treated by foreign journalists on the terrace of Al Deera (ph)

And from "The Guardian`s" Peter Beaumont, "Today was a personal low
point, giving first aid with colleagues to two children wounded by shrapnel
on Gaza Beach on the terrace of our hotel."

At the hospital, family members learned their young relatives had been
killed. The four boys, ages 9 to 11, were all cousins, members of the same
family. Spokesmen for Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told
Channel 4 News, quote, "The story with these four boys is a tragedy. Let`s
be clear, the Israeli military does not target civilians."

I spoke earlier with NBC foreign correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin in Gaza
City. I started by asking him what exactly he saw on that beach.


actually making our way from our office back to our hotel in between some
of our work throughout the day, and we came across these boys who were
playing -- at the time they were playing on a side street across the street
from our hotel.

We stopped; I just joked around with them a little bit, we kicked the
ball around for maybe just a few minutes and then walked on to back our
hotel, not thinking anything about it. And what we learned was that a few
minutes later they headed down towards the beach, which is just right
across the street from where I saw them, and went down there to continue
playing a little bit of soccer.

And then we heard two loud explosions a few minutes after that; I
looked out my window. I saw a cloud of black smoke billowing just down
into the Gaza seaport. And I ran downstairs and our producer started
seeing these kids that were being triaged and treated on the terrace of our

Then they were transported into the ambulance that took them to Shifa
Hospital. Our cameraman also happened to be -- heard the first explosion;
ran to the window and started filming that scene of the kids running away
from the beach. And at the time the aftermath of all of that. So it was a
chaotic scene that we witnessed today.

HAYES: These were not airstrikes; this was shelling that came by way
of the sea from, it appears, an Israeli naval ship.

What is the Israeli government saying about the intent here?

What happened?

MOHYELDIN: Well, right now, there has not been any official
explanation as to what may have happened. What we do know is certainly I
think the Israeli government at this point is investigating the case or the
allegations that there was Israeli shelling taking place at that point.

There`s no doubt about it from the perspective of journalists and
those that were on the ground who, over the course of the last several
weeks, have been hearing this very consistent shelling, consistent with
naval shelling as opposed to that of an airstrike or artillery fire.

It did seem consistent with navy shelling. There were navy boats on
camera seen by journalists off the coast of Gaza at that point and a lot of
the eyewitnesss who saw it, described the shelling coming from the
direction of the Israeli navy.

What they may have been targeting, that`s very hard to identify. The
Gaza seaport is not a developed seaport. There are not a lot of
warehouses, in fact, a lot of the ships are really old wooden ships that
themselves have been destroyed over the course of the last several years.

So it`s not a robust place; it didn`t seem to have any legitimate
targets, but then again, the Israeli military may have had some
intelligence, may have at the same time it could have been an accidental
error, we simply don`t know.

But what we do know for a fact, four Palestinian boys lost their
lives; four others were injured. These were young kids, cousins, just
trying to enjoy a summer day on the beach, despite the fact that they were
living in Gaza.

HAYES: And what is the American government saying about this? I
understand there was an exchange with the State Department. What has their
response been?

MOHYELDIN: Well, the State Department right now obviously is not
commenting on the specifics of the incident on the ground, at least not
that I`m aware of at this particular point. They are looking at this in a
broader picture and trying to say that there was an opportunity for a
cease-fire, that Hamas rejected that cease-fire and in a sense trying to
kind of perhaps equate the two with one another.

That the tragedy that may have happened on the ground regardless of
the motivations are accidental or not, and the rejection of Hamas of the
cease-fire is allowing this violence to continue. That`s the tone that is
coming out of the U.S. State Department.

There has been no clear condemnation of it; there has been no calls
for an international inquiry or perhaps even calls for holding Israeli
officials or the military accountable for the killing of these four young
boys. And that certainly is going to be a major sour point, if you will,
for the Palestinian community.

They see their children get killed on the international stage, they
see very little condemnation and that just fuels the anger among the
Palestinian population. It`s something we heard from people at the
hospital as they were recovering the bodies from the morgue to bury them,
that they kept shouting, "Where is the world? Why is the world not
protecting us?"
And that`s always a difficult question when you`re a journalist and
the people on the street are posing that question to you to answer.

HAYES: Ayman Mohyeldin, NBC News foreign correspondent, thank you
very much for your reporting today.

MOHYELDIN: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: All right. College students recruited to wear spyglasses to
record the campaign events of the Democratic opponent of Republican
Governor Rick Snyder of Michigan. High jinks ensue -- that`s next.



with the yellow shirt, Macaca or whatever his name is, he`s with my
opponent; he`s following us around everywhere. And it`s just great, we`re
going to places all over Virginia. And he`s having it on film and it`s
great to have you here and show it to your opponent, because he`s never
been there and probably will never come.


HAYES: That was the infamous moment the political career of
Republican Senator George Allen went up in flames. Allen was running for
reelection to the U.S. Senate in Virginia and was even thought to be
considering a run for president. That is until he called S.R. Sidarth a
University of Virginia student, who was taping a speech that day, a racist
slur that basically means monkey.

Sidarth was then serving as Republican Senator George Allen`s tracker,
which means that while volunteering for Allen`s Democratic opponent, Senate
candidate Jim Webb, that Sidarth videotaped Allen`s public appearances
whenever he was admitted into an event.

Now this is a common job in campaigns. It`s sort of lowly grunt work.
And employing such trackers is fairly common practice. Your idea is to
capture an opponent in the act of saying something stupid.

But what happens when your political opponent holds private events?
How do you conduct operative research on closed-door events like
fundraisers? Why, you outfit a couple of college kids with a pair of
spyglasses, of course.

Today the Michigan Republican Party acknowledged the state party sent
staffers Natalie Collins and Kyle Anderson into a fundraiser to videotape
Democratic gubernatorial candidate Mark Schauer.


NATALIE COLLINS, POLITICAL SPY: I have to just figure out the best
way to hide this. As long as I don`t feel it`s in my phone, then they`ll
see that I have the Rick for Michigan app. (INAUDIBLE).


HAYES: The Rick she`s talking about is Michigan Governor Rick Snyder,
who apparently has a app for his campaign and he`s in the midst of a
tightening reelection race against the aforementioned Mark Schauer.

So enter the Michigan Republican Party and its spycam-equipped
trackers; here`s just some of what they discovered at their secret
undercover fundraiser mission.


COLLINS: This house is very `80s. Like, look at all the tile that
was selected to use around the fireplace.

I want some of the fruit.

I feel weird because, like, no one else is eating. I just want

LISA BROWN: Are you involved with politics on campus?



COLLINS: He lives that frat life.


HAYES: Everything seemed to be going well. They checked out the
house, helped themselves to some appetizers -- pineapple included -- even
made some small talk. And then people stopped being so polite and it
started getting real.


CANDACE GROOMS: How`d you guys hear about this event?

COLLINS: Well, we went to a event last weekend actually and they were
talking about it then.

GROOMS: How`d you hear about the -- how`d you hear about that one?

COLLINS: We literally went online, and we both wanted to go to a Mark
Schauer event and we just Googled it and it came right up.

GROOMS: You Googled (INAUDIBLE) --

COLLINS: Well, we just Googled Mark Schauer events.

OK, that lady was freaking me out.

ANDERSON: Yes. I think she`s on to us.


HAYES: Yes, you think? The video was released -- get this -- by the
Schauer campaign, which, well, how did they get hold of it? Well, they got
hold of it because according to "The Detroit News," the disk containing the
video was found on the floor of the Pipefitters Local 636 Union Hall after
a Democratic Party meeting, which probably means it was left there during
another episode of undercover sleuthing.

And this isn`t the first alleged cloak-and-dagger routine for Michigan
Republicans. In March, a man who previously filmed a television commercial
for Rick Snyder reportedly posed as a CNN cameraman at a campaign event for
Mark Schauer. He`s reported to have flashed generic media credentials and
wore an orange CNN hat.

But a CNN political editor denied the network had sent anyone to the

Well, tonight at ALL IN, we have done some snooping of our own and
acquired a top secret training video from the Snyder camp they`ve been
using for their college interns.

Take a look.


"HOMER SIMPSON": Hello, my name is Mr. Burns, I believe you have a
letter for me.

"ATTENDANT" OK, Mr. Burns. What`s your first name?

"SIMPSON": I don`t know.


HAYES: We`ll be right back.


HAYES: California is currently in the middle of the worst drought
it`s been since the 1970s, which a new analysis estimates will cost the
state $2.2 billion this year. Along with more than 17,000 jobs as hundreds
of thousands of acres of farmland go unplanted.

In January, California Governor Jerry Brown asked Californians to
reduce their water use by 20 percent to help minimize the damage. They did
not listen. In fact, the analysis released yesterday found that overall
water consumption in California has actually increased by 1 percent
compared to a year ago.

So yesterday after three years of drought, California water regulators
declared no more Mr. Nice Guy.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Tuesday the board approved a $500
fine for those who overwater their yards, wash their cars without a shutoff
nozzle or use water to wash down sidewalks and driveways.


HAYES: That`s right. In California, local agencies will soon have
the authority to fine people who waste water up to $500 per day. That`s
just one side of the fight to save water in California. Many local
authorities are encouraging citizens to report their neighbors.

Have you ever heard of drought shaming?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): On social media, so-called drought
shaming posts show neighbors spraying the sidewalk for an hour or washing
his car. "Thanks," read this post, "for using the last bucket of water in

HAYES (voice-over): On Twitter and elsewhere, the unrelenting eye of
social media is being deployed for a neighbor-versus-neighbor exposure of
perceived water wasters. And some, including an apparatus ecovigilante in
San Jose appear to be taking even more direct measures.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My feelings are that somebody is against the
people that have green lawns.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So maybe to show their frustration for having
green lawns, someone is turning the grass brown.

HAYES (voice-over): Some Californians who want to keep their lawns
green while abiding by the water restrictions is even taking to have their
lawns painted. Residential water use in California is just a small part of
the state`s problem.

Agriculture uses a whopping 80 percent of the California`s water,
thanks in part to some insanely water-hungry crops, especially almonds,
which use about 10 percent of the state`s total water supply each year.

In fact, "Mother Jones" reported "It Takes" -- this is astounding --
more than a gallon of water to grow a single almond. California is a state
whose bounty depends on a very sophisticated expensive system of water
management. The questions Californians will soon be confronting is as
climate change takes hold, can the state actually keep that up?

Joining me now, Kevin Gleick, president of The Pacific Institute, an
independent non-profit organization that does research on global water

Peter, I guess the first question is, why didn`t the urge to use less
water work?

Will social media shaming work instead?

And what do we know about how you get people to consume less water?

PETER GLEICK, CLIMATE/WATER SCIENTIST: Well, we know that we`re in a
bad drought. It`s the third year of a drought, the last 10 years, the last
14 have been dry. And yet we haven`t reacted as we ought to have.

There`s not enough water to go around, even in a wet year in
California. And yet the public has been pretty slow to respond, the calls
to respond to the drought have been up until now pretty weak. And we`ve
seen too weak of a response.

I do think the recent decisions to raise the prospects of fines to try
and get farmers to use water more efficiently, may have an effect at least
on the educational side of things and hopefully will drive Californians to
do what we know we`re able to do, which is use water more efficiently than
we`re currently using it.

But we have a long way to go. Our water system is way out of balance
right now and the public is not aware of it.

HAYES: Yes. So what -- how do you fix it? It seems strange to me to
go after that 20 percent of essentially residential personal usage as
opposed to the 80 percent of agricultural usage. You`ve got to have some
kind of policy fix.

How do you make this make sense in California?

GLEICK: You`re absolutely right, we use water for a lot of different
things, we grow a lot of food in California, we use water for industry, we
use water in our homes. The reality is that every sector of our society
could use water more efficiently. We have inefficient fixtures. We have
flood irrigation when we could have drip irrigation.

Every sector ought to be addressing these issues. So agriculture uses
80 percent of the water that we use in California. There`s a lot of
potential to grow a lot more food with a lot less water. But the truth is
even in the 20 percent in our urban use on our lawns, in our gardens and
our homes, we could be using water more efficiently. Maybe it`s no longer
time to have lawns in California. Maybe we could get rid of those old
inefficient toilets and shower heads and washing machines in our homes.

I think every sector could do a lot more to do the things we want with
less water, to be more efficient.

HAYES: California is a kind of marvel of water engineering. The
entire American West is a marvel of water engineering. You have got places
that shouldn`t exist where they exist. Las Vegas comes to mind, Phoenix,
Arizona, places in which the sophisticated use of water into places that
don`t get a lot of rain has allowed this entire universe to bloom.

In an era of climate change, in a warmer era in which droughts are
more common, is California as a project sustainable?

GLIECK: Without a doubt. We have droughts naturally, of course. Wet
years, we have dry years, and we now have climate change. The climate`s
changing; we know it`s changing because of human activities and we know
some of the worst impacts of climate change are going to be on our water

We`re going to lose snow pack, it`s going to get hotter and it`s
already getting hotter, and that means more demand for water.

I think we`ll have to deal with the reality of climate change. We`ll
still have a California, we`ll still have a West. It will be hotter, it`ll
be dryer, we`re going to have to get smarter about how we manage the
limited water resources that we already have.

We can`t act as though the future`s going to look like the past. The
future`s going to be hotter and it`s going to be dryer, and our water
management system, which is already out of balance, has got to learn to
adapt to these coming changes.

HAYES: Peter Gleick, thank you so much. Appreciate it.

GLEICK: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. We`re all used to seeing ultraconservative Tea
Party candidates, primary Republicans from the Right, but in this election
year, a prominent national Tea Party hero is facing a primary challenge
from a fellow Republican from the Left, and he joins me ahead.


HAYES: Kansas Governor Sam Brownback is running for re-election; it`s
been a tough campaign for him, because as we`ve chronicled in our "All in
America" series on Kansas, he`s made a lot of enemies and not just with
Democrats, but with members of his own party.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Brownback saw a group of moderate
Republican state senators as roadblocks. So in 2012, he got involved in
their primaries.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The governor recruited Republicans to run against
his own party`s incumbents. And with the help of Americans for Prosperity
and the Kansas Chamber, successfully ousted most of those moderate
Republican senators.


HAYES: It is incredibly rare for the head of a party to back primary
opponents over incumbents from his own party, yet Sam Brownback did just
that. Citing an alliance between some Republicans and Democrats in the
state senate. Nationally, the GOP has long used the primary as a way to
enforce ideological purity and move the party to the Right as a whole.
Well, like a rubber band, you can only stretch it so far.

You might be poised to see the rubber band snap back in Kansas.
Yesterday in a remarkable turn of events, 104 Republicans came out and
endorsed Paul Davis, the Democrat challenging Sam Brownback for governor.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think this is important. And I think that you
can`t just sit by and watch something unfold, you -- if you feel strongly
about something, you have to help.


HAYES: And the revolt of Republican moderates doesn`t just stop
there. Kansas Secretary of State Chris Kobach, famous in national right-
wing circles for his role in crafting Arizona`s "Papers, please" law. He,
too, is running for re-election, and he`s facing a primary challenge from a
fellow Republican who is running as a moderate, to his left.

Joining me now is that challenger, Scott Morgan, Republican candidate
for Kansas secretary of state and former Kansas state senator Wint Winter,
organizer of Republicans for Kansas Values. He`s one of the 100-plus
Republicans endorsing the Democratic candidate for governor.

Mr. Morgan, I`ll begin with you.

What made you want to challenge Chris Kobach?

kind of an odd decision, but frankly it was realization that at some point
you have to stand up and say, this isn`t as -- we`re better than this.

And he was such an extreme example of what had gone wrong in Kansas,
and I was oddly qualified for the secretary of state, and so I decided, you
tell your kids, you have to stand up to the bully, and I said, OK, I need
to stand up and say, this doesn`t represent us.

And so I`ve been going around the state selling that message that
we`re better than this, we`re not a flashy people, but we`re decent, and we
can be kind to each other and we don`t have to fan fear all the time. And
that`s actually hit a receptive audience.

HAYES: Well, what specifically about Kobach`s record do you think
flies in the face of those values?

MORGAN: He -- for one thing, he doesn`t want to be secretary of
state. It`s not the most exciting office; it`s largely clerical. But he
uses it as a platform both in the state and nationally to go against
immigrants, to push for laws to arrest federal agents enforcing federal law
within the state.

He`s extremely popular with the Tea Party. And it`s just -- if
there`s a red button, he`ll push it, he just has a deep desire to be on
national television, and in whatever media he can, he wants to be
president. And so that doesn`t rub well with a lot of Kansans, whether
they`re moderate or conservative. It`s not something that we typically
like out here, and so I think that`s why it resonates so well with people.

HAYES: Mr. Winter, you`re taking a different approach here.
Obviously Mr. Morgan`s talking about a primary in the Republican primary,
you`re endorsing the Democratic candidate. I should full disclosure say
that I made gentle fun of your name in an earlier television appearance
today, which kind of cracked me up, which I`m sure you`ve gotten before.

What prompted you to take this somewhat dramatic step?

pretty simple, and it has to do with the issues, Mr. Brownback is taking
Kansas in the wrong direction on three very, very important issues.

Number one, he`s enacted, in his own words, an experimental extreme
tax plan; secondly, that`s resulted in cuts to our schools. Education is a
victim of that experiment.

And third, that`s resulted also in irresponsible budgeting and a very
substantial deficit spending. So our passion is about the issues and about
focusing on let`s get Kansas back in the same old sort of traditional,
cautious, conservative, frankly moderate not extreme position.

HAYES: So, Mr. Morgan, that all might sound good to my viewers and
MSNBC. And it might sound good to -- it might even sound good to a
statewide audience in a general election in which there are some small but
significant number of so-called swing voters.

But that message, is that going to work in a primary that`s being run
in August in which the conventional wisdom says only the most ideological,
zealous folks show up to vote?

MORGAN: And I agree, conventional wisdom says this wasn`t the right
thing to do. But again, it took them 20-some years to do what they`ve done
to the party; this wasn`t an overnight occurrence. And at some point you
do need to do that, take that step to say, even if I`m not the one that
takes it there, it`s -- when I go around the state, it`s like a tornado,
something were familiar with, has hit.

And people are coming out of the basement, and there`s this
realization oh, I`m not alone, there is another person, there are others
like me. And that`s when I say, yes, we`re -- there are those of us -- and
again, it`s not just moderates that are doing this. There`s -- in
Republicans out here, you have got Tea Party, but you also have the old Bob
Dole conservatives.

They are prolife, they are proguns. But they also believe in sound
education, they also believe in good roads, they believe in helping each
other, they are very decent, simple people. And a lot of what Kobach does
rubs them the wrong way.

And so it is resonating more than I thought. But the point here
wasn`t to succeed necessarily -- I`d love to win and I think it`s more
possible than I would have thought. But the point is to start raising the
flag to build back a responsible center right party, and I think you have
to do that from within.

HAYES: Mr. Winter, I`ve noted that even the Paul Davis, who you`ve
endorsed, isn`t calling for those tax cuts to be withdrawn and for taxes to
go up. So what kind of impact do you hope to have on this race?

WINTER: Well, we hope to have a similar impact to what Scott`s
talking about. And frankly, one of the issues here is competence. And
that is, we first need a governor in the state legislature that can balance
the budget, that can make sure that central core services like public
safety and education are adequately -- austerely but adequately -- taken
care of.

And that`s just not happening. And so we first have to do -- I think
I totally agree with what Paul Davis has suggested. Let`s first stop
additional tax cuts and then figure out from there how do we right this

But this is an issue-dominated movement from our perspective. And
those issues happen to be pretty normal, standard, garden variety issues;
balance the checkbook, take care of our schools. don`t have -- have
responsible budget again. And to some extent what Scott is talking about
is exactly the problem with Brownback.

HAYES: Well, this is a race that I think a lot of people are going to
be watching very closely, particularly your race, Mr. Morgan, in August.
And we will be following it closely.

Scott Morgan, Wint Winter, thank you both very much.

MORGAN: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: All right, next, a candidate who knows a thing or two about
pushing for an authentic ideological debate within her own party.


HAYES: The website has gone live and judging by
its name and content, the objective is pretty clear. Supporters are hoping
to draft Massachusetts Senator Elizabeth Warren to run for president. Why,
you may ask, when Hillary Clinton`s a clear favorite in early polling, even
among liberals?

Many on the Left think a contested presidential primary is key for
ideology defying the Democratic Party in 2016. And you see, Elizabeth
Warren is the most viable vehicle to make that happen.

Now liberal Democrats have not utilized the primary mechanism with
anyone near the level of effectiveness as the Tea Party has on the Right,
particularly over the last six years.

Right now in New York, we`re seeing an attempt to do just that.
Joining me now, candidate for governor of New York and professor at Fordham
Law School, Zephyr Teachout.

You`re running against Andrew Cuomo, incumbent Democrat, from the
Left, why are you doing it?

Well, Andrew Cuomo is a corporate Democrat who doesn`t care about schools.
We have a crisis of inequality in New York, New York is one of the most
unequal states in the union. And I have traditional Democratic values, as
do most New Yorkers, and so I`m running to challenge him.

HAYES: Andrew Cuomo, if he were sitting here, would say this is
purity nonsense, I`m the governor of a state; I compromise when I have to,
I govern from the Left when I can. I`ve done things on marriage, I`ve done
things on drug decriminalization.

I haven`t raised taxes, but you liberals always want to raise taxes.

What would you say to that?

TEACHOUT: Well, I`d say he is using the language of a trickle-down
Republican, not the language of a Democrat. He has slashed school funding
to pay for tax breaks for big banks and tax breaks for millionaires. That
is not the traditional Democratic set of values.

And yet what`s more, he`s really abandoned the state in a lot of ways.
He acts in some ways like a crony Democrat. He serves his donors; he may
be serving his presidential ambitions, but he`s not visiting schools. He`s
not actively riding public transportation, which is suffering right now.

HAYES: Do you think he`s vulnerable? I mean, look, I would think, I
would say this, if I were -- you asked me to bet a thousand dollars on who
would be the Democratic nominee for governor of New York, I would not bet
on you. And so the question is, what do you hope to accomplish with this
campaign if, in fact, you don`t win?

TEACHOUT: Well, there`s a lot of ways to win. I mean, one is we have
to have a wide-open, explicit conversation about how we should spend money
in our state. I think of the tax code of a state as the moral code of the
state. It really reflects the values.

Right now it reflects values that we`re going to do everything we can
for a few rich folks and we`re not going to care about those who are less
well off. It`s upside down and we can right it. And by having that
debate, it will shed light on what`s actually happening in this
extraordinary democracy.

HAYES: Do you think this is something we should be seeing more of
across the country?

TEACHOUT: Absolutely, yes.

HAYES: There`s other states. There`s Jerry Brown in California,
there are other Democratic elected members who are vulnerable from the
Left, although liberals are very critical of.

Do you want to see more?

TEACHOUT: Yes, we want to see this race set off a movement of people
challenging corporate right-wing Democrats from the Left, and from the
center and from traditional Democratic values.

HAYES: Do you think that`s going to happen at the presidential level?

TEACHOUT: I hope so.

HAYES: You`d like to see the same thing?

TEACHOUT: I would. You should never leave power on the table. And
at the heart of democracy is contested primaries. If you don`t have a
contested primary, you can`t have a discussion about your tax code or
fracking or school funding.

That`s where actually it happens.

HAYES: People forget that the most progressive, sort of leading
policy proposals in 2008, in that presidential primary, many of them came
from John Edwards, who is now a completely disgraced figure and who was
never -- was not president, but that doesn`t matter, because those policies
were out there, and they had an effect on how everyone else ran that race?

TEACHOUT: Yes. And we`re already having an effect, and we see even
more people coming out every day.

HAYES: Zephyr Teachout, thank you so much.

That is ALL IN for this evening. And "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts
right now with Steve Kornacki.


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