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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, July 31st, 2014

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July 31, 2014

Guest: Joaquin Castro, Christina Bellantoni, Tom Trainor, Prof. Paul
Butler, Laura Bassett


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The House will be in order.

HAYES: Chaos on Capitol Hill. The border bill pulled after John
Boehner faces a revolt in his own party.

important for us to act and I`m hopeful we will.

HAYES: We will have the latest on where things stand now.

Then, the governor of New York under threat of investigation by
Manhattan`s U.S. attorney.

Plus, the workers picketing for the reinstatement of their boss get an
ultimatum from his replacement.

And, why liberals are pushing for one of the most liberal justices in
the Supreme Court to step down.

long as I can do it full steam.

HAYAES: ALL IN starts right now.

GINSBURG: Notorious RBG.


HAYES: Good evening, from Knoxville. I`m Chris Hayes.

Breaking news from the Middle East -- frankly welcome news -- where
the United States and the United Nations have announced a 72-hour cease-
fire to the war in Gaza. The pause follows increased pressure from the
White House and a widening (AUDIO GAP) leaders over the mounting tally of
civilian casualties in Gaza among Palestinians in the war. We`ll have more
on how this deal happens and what happens next.

But, first, total chaos on Capitol Hill today.


REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), MAJORITY LEADER: It is possible to advise
all members that it`s possible to have votes later today. I am hopeful
that by late this afternoon, we`ll be able to notify the time of it. Will
the --


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The House will be in order.


HAYES: New Majority Leader Kevin McCarthy, apparently with his very,
very young new chief of staff, suggesting possible further votes on a day
when at one point it was entirely unclear whether the House would vote at
all on the issue about which its Republican majority has been railing for a

A humiliating day for Speaker John Boehner who once again found
himself with an utter lack of control over his own caucus. A vote that had
been scheduled today for a vastly pared down border supplemental bill of
$659 million to address the humanitarian crisis at the border was scrapped.
The reason it was scrapped, Ted Cruz.

Last night, we reported to you that Senator Cruz had, as he has
before, most notably during the shutdown huddled with about a dozen members
of the House Republican caucus. Cruz urged House colleagues not to vote
for the supplemental unless it also included a provision that would defund
President Obama`s deferred action for childhood arrivals. That had removed
the threat of deportation for hundreds of thousands of people who had been
brought to this country as children and who were, in the president`s words,
American in every single way but on paper.

But Cruz caucus doesn`t see it that way. And the House Republican
leadership`s bill was in serious jeopardy.


REP. STEVE KING (R), IOWA: I think there will be a respectable number
of members that will vote no on the leadership`s bill.

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA: I think it was fairly
unanimous, the viewpoint that was in the room. People were not happy with
the bill that House leadership has.

REP. MO BROOKS (R), ALABAMA: The pizza was very good, Pizza and Dr.

As of about who hours ago, the House leadership did not have the 218
votes needed to pass the legislation based on everything I`ve seen.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: We do these every few weeks where we sit
down and then visit with House conservatives and talk about the challenges
facing this country. I am encouraged and I think it is likely the House is
going to vote on the bill to eliminate President Obama`s authority to grant


HAYES: Faced with yet another revolt from the Republican right flank,
Speaker Boehner`s plan by this morning was to hold two votes. OK?

First, the aforementioned $659 million border bill and then to appease
the caucus and the Ted Cruzers, a bill by Congresswoman Marsha Blackburn,
one of the attendees of that Cruz meeting, that would defund any further
DACA applications, as well as any attempt by President Obama to extend work
permits to any immigrant.

And since that second bill would never be passed by the Senate, it
would largely be a symbolic vote. That`s what Boehner had acceded to.


BOEHNER: The second bill we`ll vote on today will make clear the
House`s position. No more unilateral action by the president. In my view,
doing something is better than doing nothing. The crisis on the border is
going to continue until the president acts, but he`s clearly not going to
act. That means the Congress has to act.


HAYES: OK. So that`s the plan. Two votes, right?

We throw you a bone, you Tea Party folks, we`ll defund DACA and we`ll
also vote on this border supplemental.

Now, had they held those two votes as originally intended, Democrats
would have characterized the debacle as the Democratic leader did this


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER: Again, if that bill were
not bad enough, they`re saying to those members, unless you vote for this
terrible bill, even though you don`t think it`s terrible enough, you`re not
going to get a chance to tie the president`s hands when it comes to using
his discretion and executive authority.


HAYES: But even that, even those two votes, even throwing the bone
was not good much for the hardliners. And so, suddenly, this afternoon,
the border supplemental bill was pulled entirely.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to find an answer and people need to get
together, so it`s very disappointing that we didn`t come together as a
Congress to address this issue.


HAYES: At that point, it looked like the House was planning to leave
at the end of today for recess, leave town, having not voted on the bill
that they, themselves, had crafted to address the problem they say is
urgent and pressing. And when they realized how terrible that looked, the
House Republican conference met at 3:00 in the afternoon emerging with a
decision they would not recess today and will conference on tomorrow,
Monday morning, at 9:00 a.m. to discuss the border bill.

Who knows what happens in the next 24 hours? And just now, in the
other chamber, Senate Republicans blocked $2 .7 billion border bill backed
by most Democrats.

Joining me now, Congressman Joaquin Castro, Democrat from Texas,
member of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus.

Congressman, what is going on down there?

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D), TEXAS: Well, it`s been a tough day, Chris.
You know, I think the country has been looking for Congress to be partner
in governance to the country and specifically this week in doing something
about the humanitarian situation going on on our southern border.

Unfortunately, Republicans both in the Senate and the House blocked
legislation to do anything about it. And so, it`s been a bleak day.
Perhaps we can pass something tomorrow. It`s clear that the Department of
Homeland Security needs the resources in order to deal with this situation.
So, I`m hopeful we can still do something before we leave town.

HAYES: Part of the reason this -- part of the reason they had to yank
the bill was that in previous instances in which John Boehner has alienated
the Tea Party caucus with a piece of legislation, he`s found the makeup
votes on the Democratic side. My understanding was Leader Pelosi,
Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi, was whipping against this bill because she
says it`s inhumane and totally insufficient and spends 2/3 of the money on
border security which really isn`t the problem.

CASTRO: That`s right. You know, many of us believe that these kids
are refugees and should be treated as such, and that most of all, we should
not repeal the 2008 law because they should have their chance in court, due
process to make their case for asylum. In fact, "Reuters" reported in a
poll yesterday that show that 70 percent of Americans agree the kids should
have their day in court. But like on many other issues, Republicans are
nowhere near where the overwhelming majority of American opinion is, so
they`ve moved forward not only to repeal the 2008 law, but also to make
changes to DACA.

And I think it`s also clear if you have a Republican majority in the
Senate, and in the House next January, they will not only repeal the 2008
law, but they will repeal the existing DACA law.

HAYES: That seems to be the position right now. The Republicans have
coalesced around which is a pro-deportation position on immigration.
Meanwhile, the Senate has gone on recess. They haven`t passed their side
of it. So, nothing`s getting done out of this Congress before the august
recess. And that leaves the problem still in Texas. And filling that
vacuum are militia members who are now patrolling the border.

All members of the Texas Democratic delegation, yourself included,
called on Attorney General Greg Abbott to denounce militia groups along the
border and clarify the jurisdiction the groups have to patrol alongside law
enforcement and border patrol agents.

In the absence of federal action, are we going to see more of this
kind of vigilante action down in the state of Texas?

CASTRO: Unfortunately, when there`s a void in leadership by
government, you`re going to see this kind of lawless action where militias
with semiautomatic weapons, vigilantes, are going down to the border, have
these strike teams or units now. The leader of that group has said that
the way you keep immigrants out of the border is point a gun at their head
and threaten to shoot them.

These folks are now on the border wearing ski masks and carrying
semiautomatic weapons and what`s very unfortunate is that the leadership in
Texas, both Rick Perry and the attorney general, Greg Abbott, who`s running
for governor, have refused to denounce this kind of action. They`ve
remained silent on these militias and that`s just made the problem worse.

HAYES: So, then what -- what next here, Congressman?

CASTRO: Well, you know, I know that earlier my friend Henry Cuellar
mentioned us getting together and come to some kind of compromise. It`s
imperative that Congress not be a bystander to governance, that we actually
get something done. And, unfortunately, today has been emblematic of this
term in Congress. It`s been the least productive term in congressional
history so far.

So, you know, I think the speaker has a few choices here. He can do
what he did with the Violence Against Women Act and Hurricane Sandy relief
which was to work with Democrats to find some reasonable middle ground, or
he can continue to be beholden to a group of people who quite frankly don`t
care for him very much and are going to keep moving further and further to
the right the more you let them. And that is the group that`s led by Ted

If you keep trying to please that small faction of people who are
incredibly influential, but a small faction of people, then you`re probably
not going to see anything happen until, perhaps, September. The problem is
the money is running out over at DHS.

HAYES: It is. Congressman Joaquin Castro of Texas -- thank you so

To make today`s leadership debacle all the more humiliating for the
House Republican leadership, today was the first day of their new
leadership team. As now former Majority Leader Eric Cantor exited that
role, with Congressman Kevin McCarthy replacing Cantor as majority leader,
and Congressman Steve Scalise replacing McCarthy as majority whip. Well,
what a welcome to their new jobs.

Joining me, Christina Bellantoni, editor in chief of "Roll Call."

OK, Christina, I sat in front of this camera night after night for a
month or more and played tape of Republicans in the House railing against
the president being AWOL. He didn`t go to the border. He doesn`t care
about this.

He`s going to go to Texas and not go to the border. He has to do
something, he has to step up. When is he going to take responsibility?

And now, they`re going to go on recess having not passed their own

CHRISTINA BELLANTONI, ROLL CALL: Well, they`re not, and I think
that`s what you`ve laid out there is exactly the reason why lawmakers are
tells our "Roll Call" reporters tonight they`re going to work through the
night. They`re going to get this dealt with. If they need to stay through
the weekend, they will.

But consider the high drama of this day. I mean, this is -- this
happens every time they`re about to adjourn for a long recess. This is
five weeks where they go home to campaign. We are 96 days out from the
elections. And you`ve got members of Congress who are prepared to head
home Thursday afternoon thinking this would be no big deal.

And then they realize, oh, man, this looks really bad for the exact
reason you just laid out. They`re forced to stick around. Democrats don`t
want to do John Boehner or the new leadership team any favors. Meanwhile,
in the Senate side, you`ve got senators who are actively trying to kill
House legislation.

Not just this. I mean, they have this huge fight over the highway
trust fund bill. This was a day of really intense drama and tension.

And, by the way, Eric Cantor gave this very nice "I`m leaving" speech
and talked about bipartisanship and the importance of working together.
This is Congress.

HAYES: Well, it`s also -- I mean, frankly, it`s a massive humiliation
for the leadership on their first day. I mean, they got rolled once again
and they got outplayed. It reminds me of the shutdown.

I mean, John Boehner was coming there every day saying, we don`t want
a shutdown. We don`t want a shutdown. I remember doing -- playing John
Boehner three or four days before the shutdown. We don`t want a shutdown.

Meanwhile, Ted Cruz is whipping the House and we saw what happened and
saw what a political disaster it was and now they`re going to try to rerun
this, they`re going to allow him to do this 96 days before the election or
almost do. It`s pretty astounding.

BELLANTONI: It is. And it`s really when you consider it`s a very
small group of people that are controlling the strings here, they need 218
votes to pass legislation. If they don`t work with Democrats, that means
they can only afford to lose between 30 and 40 of their Republicans. Well,
they tend to lose those on major votes.

And so, when you think about in, you know, not just last summer, or
last fall with the government shutdown, but in 2011, the Tea Party class of
2010 stood up and said, we`re not going to raise the debt ceiling and that
imperiled their recess.

And whenever you have leadership forced to pull a bill off the floor
saying we don`t have the votes. They were telling reporters today that
they had 214 of the 218 that they needed. That is really embarrassing.

And, by the way, it`s really important to point out that all parties
tend to do this where they are waiving every single transparency rule that
they set in place on themselves. The Republicans said we would have three
days to look at legislation -- well, they had a meeting at 6:00 p.m.
tonight, you know, barely got any notice, saying we`re going to waive this
so we can consider this same-day legislation tomorrow.

And again, how many times have we seen the tape of people saying, who
read the health care bill? Nobody is going to read this bill either. This
is $659 million, you know, to spend here.

So, it`s Congress at its most dysfunctional. Right ahead as Nancy
Pelosi pointed out today, this is right when voters are starting to pay
attention for the midterm elections.

HAYES: They`ve also backed themselves into a corner. They are now --
they`re coalescing now as a party around a deportation message. I think
that is just poison for them. It was one thing after 2012 when everyone
thought they were going to get onboard for comprehensive immigration
reform, Senate passed it, they sort of slowly backed away from it.

Now, it`s not just -- that they`re not doing anything on comprehensive
immigration reform. It`s now a pro-deportation message that`s a leading
message of the Republican Party on immigration.

BELLANTONI: That`s the message that`s coming through. When you talk
to rank and file Republicans, the majority of them don`t actually feel that
way, and really when you talk to them even privately, a lot of them do
actually favor comprehensive reform, but they understand that it`s putting
lawmakers in tough positions to force them to vote on a broad bill.

I mean, don`t forget this Congress started with a Republican retreat
where they put out immigration principles that weren`t the Senate-passed
bill, but very closely resembled that Senate-passed bill. That`s one of
the reasons Eric Cantor got himself in trouble in that June 10th primary.

And so, you really have seen this dramatic election-forced shift, and
with the backdrop of 2016 as well, this is difficult for the Republican
Party right now.

HAYES: Christina Bellantoni from "Roll Call" -- always a pleasure.
Thank you.

BELLANTONI: Thank you.

HAYES: Breaking news to report tonight: a 72-hour humanitarian cease-
fire in Gaza was announced a few hours ago. We`ll have the very latest,


HAYES: Amid all the rest of the chaos on Capitol Hill today, an
unbelievable moment was caught on camera. It happened when Congressman Don
Young of Alaska tried to go into the House Republican conference a few
hours ago. A staffer tried to divert him to a side door, which is standard
practice and those conferences are in session. And then, Congressman Young
grabbed his arm and twisted it, clearly causing the staffer pain. He
finally let it go and went into the conference.

Unbelievable. All caught on tape.


HAYES: Some late breaking news tonight out of Gaza: within the last
few hours, Secretary of State John Kerry and the U.N. announced that Israel
and Hamas have agreed to implement an unconditional 72-hour humanitarian
cease-fire set to begin tomorrow morning at 8:00 a.m. local time.


JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: It is a lull of opportunity -- a
moment for the sides, the different factions, to be able to come together
with the state of Israel in an effort to try to address ways to find a
sustainable cease-fire.


HAYES: After the cease-fire begins, Israeli and Palestinian
delegations will travel to Cairo to take part in negotiations, mediated by
Egypt. U.S. will also send a delegation. Senior U.S. government officials
says the U.S. expects Hamas to be part of the Palestinian delegation but
the U.S. will not sit across the table from Hamas.

The cease-fire agreement comes after pressure from the White House and
a widening gulf between the U.S. and Israeli leaders over the horrific
tally of civilian casualties during the operation -- casualties in Gaza
that even led to a very rare rebuke of the Israeli military from the
Pentagon today. A spokesman saying there, quote, "Civilian casualties in
Gaza have been too high and it`s become clear that Israelis need to do more
to live up to their very high standards of protecting civilian life."

Joining me now, Andrea Mitchell, chief foreign affairs correspondent

Three weeks into this, Andrea, there have been numerous cease-fire
proposals floated, some by Egypt and the U.S. rejected by Hamas. Some
floated by Hamas, rejected by Israel.

What changed today to bring this about?

there are a couple of things that make it a little more promising, and I am
very, very cautious in my optimism. As John Kerry said, this is no time
for celebration or joy, but for deliberative work. And there`s a lot of
work to be done.

But this time, it`s a cease-fire in place, and Israel has made
considerable gains in getting at those tunnels. So they don`t have to back
out of their forward positions. They can continue trying to destroy the
tunnels, but it basically does protect the people of Gaza from the horrific
air attacks that they`ve been having, and will stop the rockets similarly
from firing into Israel proper.

So, the air war will be on hold if this holds, and there will be talks
and the talks will include a Palestinian delegation in Cairo that as you
pointed out will include Hamas. It`s been endorsed and brokered by Qatar
and Turkey, thanks to Mahmoud Abbas from John Kerry, and explicit thanks
from the State Department to Qatar and Turkey as well.

So, Egypt is the host. Kerry is not taking a lead role by going
himself. He is going to be flying home from India. He`s sending a smaller
lower level delegation and he can obviously join if there`s something to
celebrate later on.

HAYES: Part of -- part of the sticking point thus far that Hamas has
insisted that a cease-fire must be tied to the end of a blockade, the
opening, for instance, of the Rafah border crossing. The lifting of,
frankly, siege, Gaza has been under for seven years. Israel from their
perspective doesn`t seem to have much interest in that, so how does that
nut get cracked?

MITCHELL: That`s for them to decide at the negotiating table. What
is interesting here is that Hamas has agreed to this without getting a lift
of the blockade. So, that`s what they are to determine.

And this is actually what was offered days ago when neither side,
first, Israel accepted, Hamas didn`t, then there was a flurry of activity
and disagreement disagreements back and forth. But Hamas is not getting
anything more than it had been demanding days ago. Israel is getting a
forward position on the tunnels, and more time to have limited the tunnels.

And so, the only thing has happened in the intervening days is that so
many people have died, been wounded or been made homeless.

HAYES: Andrea, you`ve covered this conflict for a while, and it
strikes me that something significant has happened over the last weeks --
week, particularly -- in divergence between how the Israeli government and
Israeli public with overwhelming support the action feel about this, as
justified and as necessary to root out Hamas terrorists. And the way the
White House, and I think certainly international community, but a lot of
Americans increasingly just are seeing picture after picture of the most
horrific carnage of innocent civilians, children.

The gap between those two is as wide as I`ve ever seen it. I wonder
if you feel the same way.

MITCHELL: Well, with a few caveats because the last poll I saw was
last Monday and there was still significantly more American support for
Israel`s position by a wide margin than support for Hamas. So, Israel
still has American support -- certainly, American political support in

What has changed really is in the administration, the administration
has really become terribly concerned and aggravated with Israel and you see
the tension between Kerry and Israeli officials which is expressed in the
Israeli media -- the annoyance, the statements from the White House today,
from the Pentagon today.

Interestingly, though, you`re hearing silence from a lot of the Arab
leaders. The Arabs are not standing up and criticizing Israel. They`re
not coming to the defense of Hamas. They seem more wary of a threat from
Hamas than of a threat from Israel.

When I speak after the Arabs, I mean Cairo, and also what you`re
hearing from the UAE and Saudi Arabia is silence. Other than Qatar and
Turkey, Hamas does not have any partners.

HAYES: Yes, it`s been a tremendous and fascinating shift post-Arab
spring to see basically Egypt and Israel and Saudi Arabia all aligned
essentially on the same page on this operation.

NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell -- thank
you so much.

MITCHELL: Sure thing.

HAYES: You can catch Andrea`s show weekdays at 12:00 p.m. Eastern on

We`ll be right back.


HAYES: You may be wondering why I`ve been doing the show from here in
Knoxville for the past few days. I`m here doing interviews as part of our
"All in America" series. I spent this morning in Harlan County, Kentucky,
a couple of hours north in Knoxville, in the heart of Appalachian coal

I spoke with unemployed coal miners about the steep decline in coal
jobs in the region, the devastating impact that`s had on their communities
and who or what is to blame. We`ve all heard plenty about the supposed war
on coal. But the story of coal country goes a lot deeper than that.
Coming up soon in a week-long series, we will take you into the past,
present, and future of coal country. You won`t want to miss it.


HAYES: Picket lines are increasingly rare sights in America, but
right now Massachusetts, there is a picket line of sort that confounds our
idea of how business and labor work in this country. Workers are
protesting outside the Market Basket grocery chain in the hopes of, wait
for it, getting their boss back.

In the day in age when CEOs make 331 times what an average worker
does, Market Basket employees say they are willing to put their jobs on the
line in order to get their former CEO, Arthur T. Demoulas reinstated as CEO
of the company.


BEN CHARLES (?), MARKET BASKET EMPLOYEE: I do not want to work for
anybody else. Like I said, I have been here 32 years. He has given me
everything for me and my family. Nobody else would do that.


HAYES: Last month, after a shift of allegiance on the company`s
board, Arthur T. Demoulas was ousted in a Shakespearian coup led by his
cousin, Arthur S. Demoulas. Arthur T. as "The Boston Globe" points out was
generous enough that Market Basket`s managers and supervisors can easily
make into the six figures or paying more than $40,000 for experienced

Arthur T. was a big believer in profit sharing, so much so that in
2008 when one of the funds in which the profit sharing money is invested
suffered a $46 million quarterly loss. Arthur T. says he insisted the
company immediately make up a loss to his employees` accounts.

While Arthur S., on the other hand, once reportedly sought a $1.5
billion payout to shareholders on top of the $500 million in dividends
shareholders have already received over the last decade. And, according to
"The Boston Globe" Arthur S. discussed a sale of his family`s stake in
Market Basket with private equity company Cerebrus capital management in

All these raise to employees` fears that losing Arthur T. will lead to
ruthless corporate efficiency. And, today, Arthur S. and the rest of the
shareholders took out a full-page ad in Boston papers about a job fair next
week, sending a clear ultimatum to Market Basket employees who walked off
the job, "Returned to work on Monday or will begin hiring other people."
Joining me now is Tom Trainor, long-time district supervisor from Market
Basket. He was fired after helping tolead the protest movement. Tom, why
were you willing to walk off the job for your boss?

is a great man to work for, and I know without him, Market Basket as we
know it no longer will exist.

HAYES: What exactly makes it so great? What exactly makes it worth
the risk that all these employees are taking on?

TRAINOR: Well, first off, he is a great businessman. Second of all,
he is a great human being. He knows people. He is more comfortable
walking through a store and talking through his customers and his
associates than he is sitting in his office.

"The Boston Globe" calls Arthur T. "The good Arthy and the rest is the
bad Arthy." And, I liken it to -- "It is a wonderful life" with George
Bailey and Mr. Potter. Mr. Potter has two sisters and a sister-in-law as
shareholders and they are what is holding up the sale of the company right
now back to Arthur T.

HAYES: So, the company could be sold and it would be sold possibly to
private equity and there are a bunch of grocery chains that are owned by
private equity. What do you think would happen to Market Basket in the
hands of a private equity owner?

TRAINOR: Prices would rise. Profit sharing, benefits and wages would
probably be cut all in the name of profit. Arthur T. Demoulas cares more
about people than he does profit. And, the customers, we have 2 million
customers a week are solidly behind us.

They boycotted the store and they really taken over this movement that
me and a few other people started. They have taken over this movement and
they are boycotting our stores.

HAYES: How did they tell you, you were fired?

TRAINOR: I was sitting on my front porch, July 20th, on a Sunday
night with my wife and my youngest daughter and a courier pulled up to the
driveway and handed me an unsealed manila envelope. Inside was my
termination papers and a no trespass order.

HAYES: And, did they say why?

TRAINOR: In the newspapers, the next day they said the disruptive
behavior, but they never told me. They never looked me in the eye and told
me I was terminated nor did they even phone call me.

HAYES: And, how long have you worked for Market Basket?

TRAINOR: 41 years. It is a company I grew up.

HAYES: 41 years.

TRAINOR: Yes. I started at 14, bagging groceries like everybody in
our company. It is a culture. You promote from within. Everybody has the
opportunity to go as high as they can possibly go, as long as they work
hard, do their jobs, stay loyal. It is a great company to work for. I
went to work every day loving my job until June 23rd.

HAYES: Do you think this is going to work? I mean, right now it
looks like they are trying to bring the hammer down. That full-page ad was
sending a pretty clear message it seemed to me that they are going to just
start firing any troublemakers.

TRAINOR: Well, this is the third time they have told us they are
going to fire people. This is the third time they have told us they are
going to replace people permanently. And, the second time that they have
offered amnesty to employees. You know, they are saying they are looking
for store managers and assistant managers. Those people are still working.

Nobody in the stores has walked off the job. People are out
protesting in front of the stores are on their break or on their own time.
The stores are still open. The customers are still shopping. But, there
are just no customers because they support us. So, it is kind of odd we
are going to have a job fair for jobs that do not need to be replaced.

HAYES: Do you think you can win this? I mean, can you bring public
pressure to bear, a boycott, employee pressure, to essentially effect a
change on the board of the corporation you work for or worked for?

TRAINOR: Well, it is really not about the board anymore and it is not
about the two incompetent CEOs we have right now. It is more about the
shareholders. We have the "A" shareholders, which is Arthur S.`s side. We
have the "B" shareholders, which is Arthur T.`s. He has a proposal on the
table to buy the company. And, from what we understand, it is a very fair
and full offer. And, Arthur S. has no overcome his love of money. He has
to overcome his hate for Arthur T.

HAYES: It is an incredible story. So, you are caught in between the
Arthur S. and Arthur T. interfamilial fight. And, if Arthur T. got it
back, you think he would call you up and hire you back?

TRAINOR: I would hope so, but, you know, you never know. But, I
stand by my convictions and let`s hope that the shareholders, Arthur`s
sisters, Fotene and Diana Merriam wake up and Rafaela Evans Demoulas wakes
up and does the right thing here. 25,000 associates and 2 million
customers are waiting for their answer.

HAYES: Former Market Basket Employee, Tom Trainor, thank you so much.
-- Bad news for New York`s Governor Andrew Cuomo. After being accused of
corrupting the committee, he started to get rid of corruption. Now, a very
powerful U.S. Attorney is saying he might investigate Cuomo for obstruction
of justice. Stick around for that story.


HAYES: We just got an update moments ago on that unbelievable video
that we showed you earlier. Congressman Don Young of Alaska grabbing and
twisting the arm of a staffer who tried to get him to enter the House
Republican conference a few hours ago through a side door, as his standard

Staffer was clearly in pain after the congressman released him.
Congressman Young just released a statement saying, "While returning to the
GOP conference meeting to discuss the ongoing situation on our southern
border, I was caught off guard by an unidentified individual, who was
physically blocking me from reentering the room. Regardless, my reaction
was wrong. I should have never placed my hands on the young man." We will
be right back.


HAYES: One of the most powerful and feared prosecutors in the country
is warning democratic New York Governor Andrew Cuomo to back off. As we
reported last week, Cuomo has found himself in hot water since a major "New
York Times" investigation found his office allegedly meddled in an
independent commission to investigate corruption in New York State that was
set up by the governor, himself.

Governor vowed the Moreland Commission would be independent, but a
blockbuster investigative story in "The New York Times" offered evidence,
it was far from it and that it is Cuomo`s office that was to blame.

"Times" reporting tha after the commission issued a subpoena to a
media buying firm that counted Cuomo among its clients, Cuomo`s most senior
aide, Lawrence Schwartz, called the commissioner co-chair and ordered him
to, quote, "To pull it back." Subpoena was swiftly withdrawn. In the wake
of "The Times" story, Governor Cuomo has been in damage control mode
defending his office is interactions with the commission.


ANDREW CUOMO, (D) NEW YORK GOVERNOR: Of course there is going to be
back and forth. That is fine. That is as it should be. Interference is
different. Interference means the commission was not independent. Their
independence was trumped by the second floor. That is false.


HAYES: That same day, several members of the anti-corruption panel
issued public statements contradicting "The Times" story and defending the
governor`s office. And, according to new reporting by "The Times" today,
at least some of the statements were prompted by calls from the governor or
his emissaries.

So, now, Preet Bharara, the U.S. attorney for the southern district of
New York is not happy about it. He sent a strongly worded letter to the
members of the commission, now made public, warning against any kind of
undue influence by the governor`s office, quote, "To the extent anyone
attempts to influence or tamper with a witness` recollection of events
relevant to our investigation, including the recollection of a commissioner
or one of the commission`s employees, we request that you advise our office
immediately as we must reconsider whether such actions constitute
obstruction of justice or tampering with witnesses did it violate federal

The Moreland Commission is the subject of an active investigation
since April. The U.S. Attorney`s office has been looking into why it was
disbanded nine months early in pursuing some of its unfinished cases. And,
given Preet Bharara`s track record of successful prosecutions, particularly
in the financial industry, landing him on the cover of "Times," Governor
Andrew Cuomo may want to watch who he crosses.

Joining me now Paul Butler, Professor of law at Georgetown University
Law Center and former Federal Prosecutor with U.S. Department of justice
who specialized in public corruption. I got to say, this is like the
nuclear weapon version of a warning shot being sent by the U.S. attorney to
write a letter that uses the phrases obstruction of justice and witness
tampering is really something else.

all. What is up with these governors in the northeast? First, we have
Christie in New Jersey and now they got Cuomo in New York. What the cases
have in common is, it is always the cover-up.

It is unbelievable that Governor Cuomo, knowing that he is being
investigated for witness tampering, would reach out to potential witnesses
and try to influence their statement. It kind of makes it look like he is
a witness tamperer. Now, we are a long way from a criminal prosecution in
this case. But, what I do not get with both of these governors is why they
skate so close to the line.

HAYES: Right. So, I mean, one question here is, when the original
reporting -- I should say "The Daily News" has done great reporting on the
Moreland Commission as well "The Times" blockbuster investigative piece
sort of kicked this off. But, in that reporting, it has always been
unclear if any law was broken.

I mean the bigger problem was this political problem of the governor
saying, "We have this commission and they are going to go wherever the
facts take them" and then it looked like that was not the case. But, it
was unclear that there was any basis for any legal infraction. It now
looks like if there is a legal problem from the perspective U.S.
Attorney`s office, it is anything he has done to cover up the story of him
having meddled with the commission.

BUTLER: That is right. So, the people on the commission are serious
professionals. They are prosecutors, public servants, even law professors.
They are not political hacks. So, it is kind of strange that after
Governor Cuomo reaches out to them, they change their stories. They seem
to be trying to protect the Cuomo administration. Some of them, not all of
them, but it is the kind of thing that raises red flags with the
prosecutor. So, he almost has to investigate.

HAYES: So, going toe to toe with a governor when you are the U.S.
attorney, that is about as high profile a target as a U.S. attorney could
have. And, it is not something you want to take on lightly. We know in
Newark, the U.S. attorney there has opened an investigation into Chris
Christie. Preet Bharara started our with a kind of portfolio from Moreland
Commission, but now looks like he is investigating the governor. I mean,
can you start something like this and not come out of it without someone
getting indicted?

BUTLER: Well, a prosecutor has a whole arsenal of tools. So,
prosecuting someone, trying to send them to jail, that is the ultimate.
But, he is got more mild things that he can do including using the bully
pulpit. So, this U.S. attorney is rightly very concerned about this long
history of public corruption in New York.

He was one of the first people to testify to this Moreland Commission
and he said, "Look, guys, this is the time to do something and go tough, be
aggressive, go hard." And, what does Cuomo do? He disbands the
commission. So, of course, the U.S. attorney is heated.

Now, do I think that that means there is going to be some prosecution
of the governor? Probably not. Again, I do not see what the case is now,
but I think this is saber rattling. This is letting everybody know that he
takes this very seriously.

HAYES: I have been amusing myself today imagining U.S. attorney
setting up an actual prisoners dilemma with Governor Christie and Governor
Cuomo in two different rooms in which he comes in each of them and says,
"You know, roll over on the other guy and the first one who talks is the
one I let go." Paul Butler from Georgetown University Law Center. Thank
you so much.

BUTLER: Great to be here.

HAYES: All right. Why are liberals trying to force one of their own
off the Supreme Court? I will tell you, next.



KATIE COURIC, YAHOO GLOBAL NEWS ANCHOR: What are you thinking when it
comes to your retirement?

people know that I am here to stay, and my answer is I will do this job as
long as I can do it full steam. When I feel myself slipping, when I can no
longer think of shopping right as quickly, that will be the time for me to
leave the court.


HAYES: There has been mounting pressure from some democrats and
progressives for Ruth Bader Ginsburg to retire while the senate and White
House are still in democratic control. But, Justice Ginsburg as you just
heard is having none of it. The public push for her retirement is
literally years old.

Harvard Law Professor Randall Kennedy wanted both Ginsburg and Stephen
Breyer retire back in 2011. Just in case, Pres. Obama lost to Mitt Romney
in 2012, it would be, quote, "The responsible thing for them to do, he

And, the pressure continues as this year`s midterm has approached.
Just this past March, the new republic`s Isaac Chotiner pushed back against
Justice Ginsburg`s defenders under a headline calling the idea that
Ginsburg should retire whenever she pleases not only wrong but dangerous.

He notes a, quote, "She is currently serving in the sixth year of a
democratic presidential term with no guarantee of who the next president
will be. If she does not retire now, and ensure an Obama appointed a
replacement, he argues, the consequences could be severe." But, the
specter of a Ron Paul or Ted Cruz presidency does not seem to be moving
Justice Ginsburg.


COURIC: Should the political climate and consideration of your
replacement be factors in your decision?

JUSTICE GINSBURG: I am still here and likely to remain for a while.


HAYES: While it is undoubtedly her decision to make, is her decision
the best decision for the court? Joining me now, Laura Bassett, political
reporter for the "Huffington Post." Laura, first of all, in the interview
with Katie Couric, were you surprised how forthright she was on that topic?

have said before I thought it sounded more like a post-retirement interview
than a pre-retirement interview. I really have never seen her be so candid

HAYES: Yes. She really seemed to be unburdening herself and Supreme
Court justices can be often rather cagy when they are giving interviews.
She was definitely not.

BASSETT: She was not. You know, and I think that she really did that
interview on purpose to come out and say, "Look, I am not going anywhere.
I am still sharp as a tack." You know, she is recently gotten the nickname
notorious RBG. And, they are not calling Elena Kagan notorious Elena

I mean she is really a liberal lion. She is a champion for women`s
right. She wrote a scathing 35 page dissent in The Hobby Lobby decision.
She does not seem to be weakening or slowing down and she wants to come out
and say, "Look, I am not going anywhere."

HAYES: Well, part of this, I think, is that after Justice Stephens`
retirement, she has taken on the role as the kind of captain of team
liberal on the court. You know, The Hobby Lobby dissent she wrote was
formidable. She is the kind most -- she built the most senior and kind of
the most forceful of the liberal justices on the court right now.

There is a question, though, about the basic politics of this. I
mean, you know, if you care about the outcomes, if you are a Supreme Court
justice and you are looking at the political landscape, at some point it
has to factor into your thinking.

BASSETT: Absolutely. If you think back to Thurgood Marshall, you
know, he was also a liberal lion and he because of health reasons, had to
retire in 1999 under George H.W. Bush. And, he was replaced by Clarence
Thomas, who is to the right of Scalia.

And, if you think over the past 20 years, how many major Supreme Court
decisions would have gone the other way if Marshall had been able to wait
two years and retire under Clinton. And, so if Ginsburg really does care
about these causes that she has been fighting for, for so long, you would
think it would be a really big deal for her to retire under a president who
would replace someone who is, you know, equal to her in terms of

HAYES: But, part of the strangeness here, of course, is the actuarial
speculation that we all must engage in when considering the court, which
offers obviously lifetime tenure. They do not have to leave unless they
are impeached, which I do not think has ever happened.

So, you know, everyone is looking and saying, "Well, you know, these
justices are pretty old and obviously Ruth Bader Ginsburg is a cancer
survivor." And, there is something uncomfortable about the political
speculation, yet that is the brute fact of the matter, right?

BASSETT: It is the brute fact of the matter and it is also really
uncomfortable. And, you do not want to look at somebody like Ruth Bader
Ginsburg who is sharp as a tack and going strong and say, "You know, you
are getting old. You should probably shuffle out."

You know, it was her who said I think earlier this year, maybe last
year, Sandra Day O`Connor retired in 2006 to take care of her husband and
she was still healthy. And, Ginsburg, herself, said I wonder if Sandra Day
O`Connor regrets retiring so early. And, I think that, that definitely is
factoring into her decision. She does not want to be a retired Supreme
Court Justice. She wants to be a Supreme Court Justice as long as her
brain can handle it.

HAYES: Yes. I mean Sandra Day O`Connor somewhat famously regretted
leaving, and she even talked about citizens united. She said, "Gosh, I
stepped away for a couple of years and there is no telling what is going to
happen about the citizens` united decision." And, we should know that
Justice Ginsburg has always been very quite independent.

There is this great memo about then-judge Ginsburg is upcoming
confirmation hearings from Ron Klain to David Gergen in the Clinton Papers.
Judge Ginsburg views the White House`s interests and her interests as being
odds with each other. She sees it as having a stake in presenting her as
moderate and getting along with the senate.

She sees her interest of being here, preserving her dignity, and
promoting her independence. And, it looks to me like very little has
changed over her time in the court. Laura Bassett, thank you so much for
joining me tonight.

BASSETT: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: All right. That is "All In" for this evening. "The Rachel
Maddow Show" starts now with Steve Kornacki filling in. How you doing,


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