updated 8/2/2004 9:33:19 AM ET 2004-08-02T13:33:19

Guest: Daphne Barak, James Garner, Glen Campbell, Kim Campbell

ANNOUNCER:  DEBORAH NORVILLE TONIGHT.

DEBORAH NORVILLE, HOST:  Standing up for party, country, and Mom and Dad.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  As someone who knows all 6-foot, 4 inches of my dad‘s best (ph)...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  John Kerry became part of my life when he married my mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  It is our great, great pride to introduce our father, John Kerry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  Can the candidate‘s family make a difference?  Tonight, our political legacy panel is back, with Jeff Kemp, Steven Ford, Chrissie Gephardt and Chip Carter with their notes on the Democratic convention stars.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA (D-IL), SENATE CANDIDATE:  I say to you tonight, we have more work to do.

WILLIAM JEFFERSON CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  Send John Kerry!  God bless you!

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE:  Reporting for duty!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  And supporting players.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TERESA HEINZ KERRY, JOHN KERRY‘S WIFE:  John Kerry will give us back our faith in America.

ELIZABETH EDWARDS, JOHN EDWARDS‘S WIFE:  John and I have been truly blessed with a beautiful and strong family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  Plus:  40 award-winning years in show business.  Then everything changed in a flash when Glen Campbell went from this to this.  Tonight, in a rare interview, Glen Campbell and Kim (ph), his wife of 22 years, on his drunk driving arrest, his stint in jail, the wake-up call that changed him forever.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GLEN CAMPBELL, SINGER:  I‘m on a golf course, and the next thing I know, I wake up in jail with my hands cuffed behind my back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  And how great songs never die.

ANNOUNCER:  From studio 3K in Rockefeller Center, Deborah Norville.

NORVILLE:  And good evening, everybody.  The Democratic convention is over and the reviews are in, and the Bush campaign is already mounting its responses.  We‘re going to get right to it tonight with our “all in the family” political panel this evening.  Joining us from San Luis Obispo, California, is Steven Ford.  He is a motivational speaker and actor and the son of President Gerald Ford.  With us from Atlanta tonight, just back from Boston, is Chip Carter, son of President Jimmy Carter.  He is a business and political consultant.  Chrissie Gephardt‘s father, Dick, was a candidate for the democratic presidential nomination this year.  She joins us tonight from Washington, D.C.  And get a plug in for her.  She‘ll be appearing this weekend in the new reality show on Showtime called “American Candidate.”  And with us tonight from Seattle is Jeff Kemp.  He is the son of Jack Kemp, who ran for vice president in 1996.  He is the executive director of Families Northwest.

And we thank you all for being with us tonight.  Everybody here has had convention experience.  Let‘s get right to it.  Best moment of the Democratic convention.  Chip Carter, you were up there.  What did you like?

CHIP CARTER, PRESIDENT CARTER‘S SON:  Well, of course, I liked my father‘s speech.  But I thought that maybe Max Cleland‘s speech was the second best and probably my favorite moment.

NORVILLE:  Why‘d you like Max Cleland so much?

CARTER:  Well, I know him so well, and I just think he talked from his heart and he talked to the morals of our country.  And I think he did really well with it.

NORVILLE:  Former senator from Georgia, your home state.  We all know that.  Chrissie Gephardt, who‘d you like up there?

CHRISSIE GEPHARDT, REP. DICK GEPHARDT‘S DAUGHTER:  I really liked Barack Obama.  I think he is an incredible rising star in the Democratic Party.  And I could see this guy being president someday.  He is unbelievable.

NORVILLE:  Steve Ford, favorite moment?

STEVE FORD, PRESIDENT FORD‘S SON:  Well, Barack Obama was excellent, but I kind of liked it when Al Sharpton went off script and sort of upset everybody there.

NORVILLE:  Which remark from Sharpton did you like best?  Was it the one about the 40 acres and the mule and we didn‘t get the mule, so we‘re ride the donkey around and kick it for a while?

(LAUGHTER)

FORD:  There were a few of them, but just the fact that, you know, he handed them one speech and they OKed that and he went and gave another speech that they hadn‘t OKed.

NORVILLE:  And I‘m going to get to you in just a second, Jeff.  But Chip, since you were up there, we know all of the speeches were vetted.  I‘m sure your dad didn‘t have to go through that.  How bent out of shape were the Democrats that Sharpton did that, that did he a switcheroo on the speech?  Chip, you were up there.  What do you think?

CARTER:  Yes.  I don‘t think people were upset at all.  He made a very, very fiery speech, and I think he had the audience in the palm of his hand.  I think the worst moment or the most embarrassing moment or the hardest thing to do was to be Bob Graham, to follow him, made a great speech and nobody remembers it or even noticed it.

NORVILLE:  He was the guy after Sharpton.  And Jeff Kemp, I know you were watching.  What was your favorite moment?

JEFF KEMP, JACK KEMP‘S SON:  Well, I only watched the last two nights.  I wanted to see John Edwards and John Kerry.  And I thought it was fascinating to see that group that had been in Vietnam with John Kerry all supporting him and some of the memories that they recalled.  And then, for me, it was just kind of interesting seeing these families, these little kids, because it reminded me of when we were doing that back in ‘96.

NORVILLE:  Yes.  Chrissie, you mentioned Barack Obama.  I want to play just a little bit of what he had to say and then get all of your opinions on just how far his star may be rising as a result of his appearance in Boston this week.  Here‘s Barack Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA:  Even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters, the negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes.  Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America.  There is the United States of America.  There is not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America.  There‘s the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  How much was he speaking to the Democratic Party faithful, and how much was Barack Obama speaking to people who have just completely soured on the political process altogether?  Chrissie, he was your favorite pick.

GEPHARDT:  I think he was really speaking to everyone in this country

·         I mean, not only to the Democratic Party but to swing voters out there and people who have been disillusioned with the political process.  And I think that what was so great about his speech was that he speaks in common language.  He doesn‘t talk like your typical politician.  And he speaks in a language that everyone can understand.  And I think that‘s why he‘s so effective.

NORVILLE:  Do you think he is really the rising star, or is he just the flavor of the moment?  Because I remember four years ago, there was another very impressive young man, Harold Ford, who was up there, and everybody was saying the same thing about him, and he didn‘t have much of a prominent role this go-round.

GEPHARDT:  I really think that Barack Obama is the real thing.  I think that he has just—I‘ve never seen a floor energized the way it was when he spoke, on the convention floor.  I mean, he just—he came alive, and so did everyone.  And I just see great things for him.

NORVILLE:  This was supposed to be, according to the Democrats, the kinder, gentler convention.  And yet when you listened to Al Gore, it certainly didn‘t sound that way.  Here‘s what Al Gore had to say, a snippet of it anyway.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERT GORE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  But I sincerely ask those watching at home tonight who supported President Bush four years ago, Did you really get what you expected from the candidate you voted for?  Is our country more united today or more divided?  Has the promise of compassionate conservatism been fulfilled, or do those words now ring hollow?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  Jeff Kemp, I‘m going to go to you first because you‘re on the Republican side of this panel.  How is that going to ring with people who may be looking at the GOP and having second thoughts, based on some of the things that have happened in the last four years?  Is that going to sway anybody‘s hearts?

KEMP:  I don‘t really know right now, obviously.  But I think that the convention was aimed at the people in the undecided middle.  And Republicans will pretty much know that the track record of the Democrats looked a lot different than this impressive and patriotic convention that had a lot of very conservative themes to it.  And then I think many, you know, hard-core Democrats and liberals would know also that this was very much aiming toward persuading people in the middle.

Both sides have been pretty tough on the other.  And I think any one of us that are on this panel really believe in statesmanship.  We respect our fathers and the way they did things.  And we hope this campaign would articulate the difference in ideas, not the personalities, ascribing bad motives to either side.

NORVILLE:  Steve, do you think they did that?

FORD:  Well, I think it was well orchestrated.  It put a kinder face -

·         listen, it was very intense before the convention on both sides.  But you know, as good a speech as Barack Obama‘s was, there is room in this country to disagree and yet have a great country.  There are liberal views, there are conservative views.  And it‘s going to be important for the Republican Party and America, the undecided vote, to see that you are looking at a candidate who‘s the most liberal senator in the Senate and his running mate is the fourth most liberal.  And when a mother or father at home, I think, gets underneath all the issues and see that John Kerry voted for federal money for children to get the day-after pill without their parents‘ consent, that is going to swing the middle voters one way or the other, that the government can think that they‘re a better parent than the parent at home.  Those are the issues.  It‘s not this flag waving and everything.  We‘ve got to get to the real issues.

NORVILLE:  I want to ask you all about the campaign...

CARTER:  That‘s not a real issue.

NORVILLE:  Well, let me—we‘re going to get to some real issues in just a few minutes, but I want to ask but the campaign bounce because every political pundit will say that the party who‘s just had the convention always gets the bounce.  There wasn‘t that much of a bounce.  If you look at the polls, maybe John Kerry got a 2 or 3 percent bump from this.  Chip, are the Democrats going to be disappointed about that, or is that what they expected?

CARTER:  I think that‘s what they expected.  The party—I mean, the country is so polarized right now that there‘s only about 8 percent undecided.  So when you go out there and start looking for that 8 percent, a 3 or 4-point bounce is a huge part of that.

And I would like to take exception to Mr. Kemp.  Democrats are very

much patriots.  We are just as patriotic in this country as the Republicans

are.  We own the flag just as much as the Republicans do.  And those social

issues that you‘re talking about—birth control and those kinds of things

·         that‘s not the issues.  The issues is war, peace and the economy, health care.  They don‘t have anything to do with this stuff that they‘re talking about, these fringe issues that they‘re trying to make a prominent part for their party.

NORVILLE:  I‘m going to stop it right there.  When we come back, we‘re going to look at how the Democratic Party has embraced what had been traditional Republican themes.  We‘re also going to look at how this convention may well have set a record for cross-generational promotion.  When we come back, more with our panel, Gephardt, Carter, Ford and Kemp, on the dream team, the Kerry girls, the Heinz boys and Cate Edwards.  Stay with us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  I‘d like to say how proud I am of my stepfather and how honored I am to serve this cause.  When my mom first introduced me to John, I said to myself, Self, the only man good enough for your mother is the president of the United States.  I think it‘s going to work out.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  My dad jumped in, grabbed an oar, fetched the cage from the water, hunched over the soggy hamster and began to administer CPR.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  It was the kind of family story you don‘t forget too soon.  John Kerry, United States senator, presidential candidate, once gave mouth-to-mouth resuscitation to a water-logged hamster.  It was the ultimate “My dad is a good dad” story.  And John Kerry‘s daughters, Vanessa and Alexandra, today are getting rave reviews for humanizing the candidate, someone whom they‘ve describing as a great father to them.

Back now with our political panel, who know all about having a dad out on the campaign stump.  Call me cynical, but what else are these kids supposed to say, except that, My dad is a great dad and he‘s been a terrific father and he‘ll be a great president?  I mean, am I crazy to expect something else was going to come out of their mouths?  Who wants to take that one?

KEMP:  I‘ll take it.

CARTER:  Well, I...

NORVILLE:  Go, Jeff.

KEMP:  Of course—of course, they‘re going to talk about their love for their family.  Their family loves them, and it makes sense.  Those are neat people.  I think all of us have been blessed with great families, and that‘s one of the evidences of leadership.  But it‘s just an amazing thing to see those young ladies up there with so much poise do such a great job.  And you know, it‘s not going to change the election.  But our families are a part of us.  And today, with such a difficult time getting to know the candidates, it‘s really important to have the families involved.  And they really made a strong push to give that picture at the convention.  They did a great job.

NORVILLE:  Jeff, of all the people on our panel, you‘re the only child who actually has introduced their dad before their acceptance speech.  How much pressure on that is on it a kid?  I mean, you were in your 30s when your father was running for vice president.

KEMP:  I guess it had helped a little bit that I came out of playing pro football and giving lots of interviews and stuff.  So I didn‘t expect it to be that big a deal.  I was in the swimming pool with my kids all day, and I barely made it to the rehearsal.  And then when I got up there in front of all those people and realized the whole nation—and the importance, of course, to my dad and the country, it was quite an emotional and a special time.  And I was quite humbled by it.  I enjoyed it.  And it was quite easy because I love my dad so much.  Everything I said was from the heart (UNINTELLIGIBLE) me.  But I was impressed at how these young people handled something, especially young Edwards.  She‘s only 21 or so.

NORVILLE:  Yes, just...

KEMP:  That‘s fascinating.

NORVILLE:  Just out of college.  And here‘s a little bit of her introduction of her mother, Elizabeth Edwards, before she spoke on Wednesday night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CATE EDWARDS, JOHN EDWARDS‘S DAUGHTER:  They say a ship in a harbor is safe.  That is not what ships are built for.  They‘re built for exploring new possibilities.  And to quote from my mom‘s favorite poem, they‘re built for allowing to us believe that a further shore is reachable from here.  My mom believes.  She has brought joy to our home and love to our hearts.  And she will join my father in bringing hope to America when she is the next second lady of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  Pretty good for a kid who just graduated from Princeton.  Steve, you were about the same age as Cate Edwards.  In a million years, could you see yourself doing what these young people did?

FORD:  I could not have done half the job she did.  I went to the convention.  I was a shy kid.  And the convention really woke me up.  I mean, it energized me to go out and campaign for Dad.  And the next three months after the Kansas City convention, that‘s what I did.  I went out and campaigned, learned to speak and made a lot of mistakes.  But it was—it energized me, and I wanted to go support my dad.  So I think all these kids did a great, great job.

NORVILLE:  Chip, as we see these families on stage -- - we see the Kerrys embracing one another.  We see the Edwardses holding their darling little young children—how is that making these candidates more relatable, more votable for someone who is among that 8 percent of undecided voters you speak of?

CARTER:  Well, I think that the people of the party and everybody in the country is trying to go toward families.  And their families are very important.  They‘re trying to get families to vote for them.  So I think a lot of the neighborhood, the families, those kind of things, are what politics is all about.  I feel an awful lot of empathy with these children, and I feel a lot of empathy with the other people of this panel and people that have been a campaigning candidate‘s kid because there‘s very few of us that have done it, and it‘s something that was I think pretty much thrown on us on without any prior experience.  And I think that everyone handles it pretty well.  And these kids did an exceptional job.

NORVILLE:  The kids did a great job.  Chrissie, I‘m curious.  Who do you think was the most pointless speaker of the four nights of the Democratic convention?

GEPHARDT:  The most pointless speaker?

NORVILLE:  Yes.

GEPHARDT:  Oh, my.  Oh!  You know, I don‘t know if there was a pointless speaker.  I think that they all had purpose.  I mean, I think that they all represented a different part of the Democratic Party, and I think that they all had a mission to accomplish in terms of getting their message out to the American people.  So...

NORVILLE:  And speaking of mission, I want to ask you about Ron Reagan‘s speech.  He was decidedly apolitical, said, I‘m not here endorse a candidate.  But when he spoke of stem cell research, he certainly got a lot of people‘s attention.  Let‘s listen to just a small amount of what Ron Reagan had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RON REAGAN, PRESIDENT REAGAN‘S SON:  We can choose between the future and the past, between reason and ignorance, between true compassion and mere ideology.  This is our moment, and we must not falter.  Whatever else you do, come November 2, I urge you, please, cast a vote for embryonic stem cell research.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  Ron Reagan has gone on to write an article in the upcoming “Esquire” which is extremely critical of the Bush administration.  Should he have done this?  Steve Ford, you first.

FORD:  I was concerned about the speech.  I wanted to hear it.  Personally, I would never take a position that would—I felt, sort of stepped on the legacy of Ron Reagan.  I wouldn‘t do that to my father, even if I thought I was the one to lead that cause.  There‘s plenty of other people that could lead that cause.  What my dad did for me is far more important than taking that issue.  I thought his speech was dishonest, to be honest with you.  He gave me the impression that the answer to this was right around the corner, and he acted like that it was illegal in America to have federal funds supporting stem cell research.  And that‘s not the case.  President Bush...

NORVILLE:  Let me bring Chrissie in real quick.

FORD:  ... in 2001...

NORVILLE:  Chrissie, go ahead.  I just want to stop you there because I want everybody to get a chance to comment on this.  Chrissie?

GEPHARDT:  I don‘t agree.  I think that it was wonderful.  I think it was great that he came to the Democratic convention to talk about such an important issue.  And I think...

NORVILLE:  But is this a big issue in the campaign?

GEPHARDT:  You know, I don‘t necessarily think that it‘s the biggest issue.  I mean, I don‘t—I think the war and the economy and whatnot is probably more important.  But I think that people think this is an important issue.  Look, we have tons of diseases out there that we have no cure for, and I think that it‘s very important that he brought light to this subject.

NORVILLE:  What about the symbolism of the whole religious aspect and, you know, when does life begin, is it conception, is it this, is it that?  Chip, you want to jump in?

CARTER:  Sure.  I think that‘s a big part of it.  Stem cell research is something that needs to be done.  Ronnie Reagan did a great job at the speech.  I met him for the first time after that, by the way, and I really liked him and I liked what he had to say.  And I think he‘s—I disagree that he did something wrong or bad to the legacy of his father.  I think he is doing this to be the legacy of his father.  His mother obviously supports it very much.  And they both have—you know, you‘ve got to be yourself or you can‘t do this thing.  And I think Ron was doing just exactly what he thinks is the right thing for him to do.

NORVILLE:  But Jeff Kemp, does it distract from the Democratic Party‘s mission and central message?

KEMP:  Well, it didn‘t fit into the rest of the speeches.  So obviously, they were using Ron Reagan‘s legacy and his son going against him for the effect that it would have.  I don‘t disrespect Ronnie Reagan for going up there.  I think deep in his heart, he passionately cares for this.  Of course, he loves his family, and his compassion for others is clear.

But I don‘t really agree with the characterization that those who might have a differing view are either ignorant or only viewing things from an ideological standpoint.  There is compassion.  There is principle.  There is prayer.  There is respect for the creator of life, not just those of us who‘ve been created, that goes into this debate.

NORVILLE:  Yes.

KEMP:  And I think we really, really need to be careful to consider that and not label the other side as uncaring if they might disagree with that perspective of his.  And like Steve said, that‘s a very serious thing to consider when the legacy of your family is also compromised by that.

NORVILLE:  I‘ll let that...

KEMP:  I mean, I would do what I felt was right, and I think that‘s what he did (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

NORVILLE:  I‘ll let that be the last word.  We‘re going to take a short break.  When we come back: The Republican Party was laying low during the convention, but today‘s the day after, and they were out in force.  Back in a moment with our panel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE WALKER BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  I appreciate my running mate.  I tell you, he‘s not the prettiest man in the race.  But he‘s got sound judgment.  And he‘s got great national—he‘s got great experience in national security.  He‘s a steady man.  I‘m proud to have him by my side for four more years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KERRY:  I defended this country as a young man, and I will defend it as president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  That‘s Massachusetts senator John Kerry accepting his party‘s nomination to be the Democratic presidential candidate.

Back now with our political panel, consisting of Steve Ford, Chrissie Gephardt, Jeff Kemp and Chip Carter.  It‘s clear that the Democrats are trying to grab hold of what have been traditionally some Republican themes as they go forward.  How does the Republican Party respond with its campaign convention, which happens in about a month?  Steve, you first.

FORD:  Well, I think both—listen, both parties are guilty of putting on big shows.  It‘s playing to a TV audience.  But I think the president—I think he needs to take John Kerry to task on, you know, You voted to support me for the war, and then you didn‘t vote to support the troops or—you know, he‘s got two decades of liberal non-defense spending legislation that he‘s not supported.  And you know, the president has to press him hard on that.  You can‘t be both things and reinvent yourself.  And I think that‘s probably what the Republicans are probably trying going to try to do.

NORVILLE:  Real quick, you think it‘s going to be a nasty campaign from here on out?

FORD:  I think once the convention‘s over, it‘ll be very, very nasty.  It‘s a different political environment than it was when my dad and Chip Carter‘s dad ran against each other.  It‘s not as nice as it used to be, and I hate to see that.

NORVILLE:  Chip, what‘s your prediction?

CARTER:  Well, I predict—first of all, I think the Republican themes that you‘re talking about are basically because we‘re at war.  And he talked about how he would try to help us get out of this war.  But I certainly expect the Republicans to go after Kerry.  I think the Democrats were very, very kind in not going after Bush in a very heavy way.  You talked about Al Gore‘s speech.  Well, if you‘d heard him speak before, you would know that that was a very toned-down version of what he has been saying.

NORVILLE:  It really was. 

CARTER:  Yes, it was.  So he toned it down, too.

Dad supposedly rewrote his speech and took all that Bush bashing out of it.  So I think it was good.  But I think the Republicans are going after us hard.  It has already been a very nasty campaign.  I certainly don‘t expect to it change. 

NORVILLE:  Chrissy, what are you looking to see the Republican do from this point out, especially as they plan their campaign in a month, their convention in a month? 

GEPHARDT:  Well, I think what they‘re probably going to do is, they‘re going to pick apart his record in the Senate. 

I know I‘ve heard a lot of people saying that he didn‘t talk about his record in the Senate, that he pretty much skipped over that phase of his life.  And I do.  I think that they‘re going to talk about the different votes that he had that contradict each other, sort of like voting for the war and, but voting against the $87 billion.  So I think they‘re going to really take him to task on that. 

And I think John Kerry should be prepared to answer those questions. 

And Jeff Kemp, your dad was in this position not too very many years ago.  You‘re advising the Republicans, let‘s say.  What do you suggest that they do to win this thing? 

KEMP:  Well, I think they need to point out the reality gap between the impression painted in this middle-of-the-road convention and really the record of the past and the policies that have been spoken of to the core of the Democratic Party in the past. 

But, secondly, the Republicans need to lay out a positive vision, yes, for solving the war, winning it and getting out with honor, but what are we going to do domestically to reach out and give opportunity to every American, and do it based on the conservative, proactive, free enterprise principles that honor families and the lowest level of decision-making in America. 

NORVILLE:  Yes.  Well, I‘ll tell you, I think the best line of the night came when John Kerry said, it is not a nation of red states and blue states.  We‘re a nation of red, white and blue.  And I think that‘s one thing everybody can agree on, no matter which side of the political aisle you‘re on. 

NORVILLE:  Steve Ford, Jeff Kemp, Chip Carter, Chrissy Gephardt, it‘s so fun to have you guys on.  I hope we will be able to get you back again between now and the first Tuesday in November, OK?

(CROSSTALK) 

GEPHARDT:  Great.  Thank you. 

(CROSSTALK) 

NORVILLE:  All right, thanks so much, guys.

GEPHARDT:  Thanks.

NORVILLE:  We‘ll be right back.

ANNOUNCER:  Coming up, Glen Campbell and his wife, Kim, open up to Deborah about paying the price and lessons learned in an ongoing battle with alcohol and memories of recording with Elvis, to Sinatra, to a sensational solo career—when DEBORAH NORVILLE TONIGHT returns.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NORVILLE:  Glen Campbell had a great ride as the Rhinestone Cowboy, but he‘s also had some bumps along the way.  How has he managed to stay in the saddle?  He joins me live next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NORVILLE:  For 40 years, Glen Campbell, the Rhinestone Cowboy, has been making his mark on music, recording a total of 70 albums and 27 top 10 hits.  His television program back in the early ‘70s drew a weekly audience of 50 million people and it made him an international star. 

But, last November (AUDIO GAP) made international news once again.  He was arrested at his home in Arizona, charged with extreme drunk driving and leaving the scene of an accident.  And by the time he landed in a Phoenix jail, he was also booked on aggravated assault after he hit a police officer with his knee. 

Earlier this month, Campbell served a 10-day jail sentence for the crime. 

And Glen Campbell joins us tonight from his home in Phoenix, along with his wife, Kim. 

Good evening.  Nice to see you both. 

GLEN CAMPBELL, MUSICIAN:  Good evening.  Nice to see you, Deborah.

KIM CAMPBELL, WIFE OF GLEN:  Nice to see you.

NORVILLE:  I‘m sure it‘s so much better to be home than it was in jail. 

G. CAMPBELL:  Yes, most of the time. 

(LAUGHTER)

G. CAMPBELL:  It was, Deborah.

NORVILLE:  Well, let me ask you, when you look at that mug shot, and lord knows it‘s been all over the Internet and all over the papers, what went through your mind when you looked at it? 

G. CAMPBELL:  How really—I didn‘t remember anything for like five hours, probably.  But when I look at it, I just said, boy, the things you can do when you are under the influence of alcohol or when you are just dead drunk. 

NORVILLE:  Was it embarrassing to see it when you did realize what had happened and you saw that horrible picture?  Were you beside yourself with embarrassment? 

G. CAMPBELL:  Yes, I was. 

But when people started doing jokes about it, you know, I kind of felt like you‘re kicking somebody when they‘re down, especially on the talk shows. 

K. CAMPBELL:  I wanted to strangle the picture every time I saw it. 

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

G. CAMPBELL:  That‘s going to be my next album cover. 

NORVILLE:  Next album cover.  I don‘t think so. 

(LAUGHTER)

NORVILLE:  Kim, how did you even know that Glen had gotten into this situation and ended up at the local police station? 

K. CAMPBELL:  I was in New York with my daughter.  She was in the Macy‘s Day Parade.  And I got a phone call while I was in the middle of watching “Thoroughly Modern Millie.”  And I went out into the lobby and I was just—ah, I was so mad.  I was just shaking all over. 

And I told him, I said, don‘t go get him.  Let him sit down there until he sobers up.  And I knew he needed to experience the impact of that once he was sober.  If they took him home that night, he would never have remembered any of it. 

NORVILLE:  And, Glen, what do you actually remember?  You had been golfing that day.  And then somehow you ended up home.  What do you actually remember about the whole situation? 

G. CAMPBELL:  I don‘t remember anything.  I don‘t remember leaving the golf course or bumping the guy in the car.  That‘s where we turn into our house out here. 

NORVILLE:  Right. 

G. CAMPBELL:  I didn‘t remember anything.  I woke up in a four-by-four cell or something like that.  And it was just a total shock.  And I said,, wow, what have you done this time?  But, of course, I had never been...

(CROSSTALK)

NORVILLE:  How long did you sit there before somebody did come and bail you out and you found out everything that had been going on? 

G. CAMPBELL:  That was probably two or three hours went by.  Of course, you know, I had never done it before.  So I never even pictured myself doing anything like that. 

But I can tell you one thing.  It did.  It made a believer out of Glen Campbell.  And if I ever run any more whiskey down my neck, you know, God can call me home. 

NORVILLE:  Well, that‘s certainly something that you said to the judge.  And after you said that to the judge, he basically said, thank you very much.  You‘ve got 10 days in the county lockup. 

G. CAMPBELL:  Right. 

NORVILLE:  And you were shipped off to the Maricopa County Jail.  It Is Renowned for being a pretty tough place to do time.  But truth be told, it really wasn‘t that bad for you, was it? 

G. CAMPBELL:  Yes, it was. 

K. CAMPBELL:  We have the pink underwear to prove it. 

G. CAMPBELL:  Yes.  I got Joe Arpaio‘s pink underwear to prove it. 

But, no, to have—I could get up.  I could get up in the daylight hours.  But I had to go—that was after I stayed there for 48 hours.  That was the longest 48 hours I‘ve ever spent in my life.  And, boy, I would advise anybody, take it from one who has been there.  Just don‘t drink and drive.  It was really incredible. 

They have got a wonderful thing, Deborah, that—it‘s wonderful now.  Of course, I griped and moaned about it when they put it in my car.  It is called a breathalyzer. 

NORVILLE:  Right. 

K. CAMPBELL:  Intoxilyzer. 

G. CAMPBELL:  Intoxilyzer.

K. CAMPBELL:  Yes. 

G. CAMPBELL:  And you have to blow in it before your car will start.  If any alcohol is detected on your breath, your car won‘t start.  I think that is just a wonderful thing. 

NORVILLE:  And you have to have that thing on your car for one year as a condition of your probation. 

G. CAMPBELL:  For one year.  Exactly. 

NORVILLE:  And if it detects alcohol, you‘re back in the slammer.  And it is not for one of these overnight stays.  You‘re in for good, right? 

G. CAMPBELL:  Right.  I‘m in for—I forget the penalty is, but I didn‘t worry about that, because I ain‘t going to do it, unless the machine messes up.  But I doubt if that will happen. 

Boy, I wish I could go back over it and remember the whole thing, just to see what I did, to understand what I did and to have a picture of it in my mind what I did. 

NORVILLE:  Yes. 

G. CAMPBELL:  The picture that‘s in my mind about the whole thing is that photograph that I saw all over the news and Jay Leno poking fun at it and stuff like that. 

NORVILLE:  Well, it is an upsetting picture.  And I‘m sure it is upsetting for you, because in your book that you wrote a few years ago, you talked about earlier on in the ‘70s, you had a drug and alcohol problem.  And you had sworn it off then. 

And, Kim, I know that had been kind of a deal breaker for you and you‘ve really given him the tough-love treatment.  How upsetting was it for both of you as a couple to realize the demon rum, which literally it was rum in this case, had snuck back into your lives? 

Kim?

K. CAMPBELL:  Well, it had started to sneak back in our lives, I guess, over the past three years.  Glen had had some dental work done.  And they had given him some various painkillers and I think Halcion, which is a sleeping aid. 

And one of the things we learned when we went to Betty Ford is that some of these drugs can act as triggers to someone who has an addictive disease like alcoholism to trigger those cravings again.  And what it did for Glen was, he started having anxiety attacks.  They call them psychoactive drugs, like Ambien another one.  And for me, that would be a fine drug for me to have. 

But for someone like Glen, he is just very sensitive to certain medications.  And he started getting anxiety attacks.  And so I think the return to alcohol was an attempt to self-medicate. 

NORVILLE:  I‘m going to follow up on that. 

(CROSSTALK)

NORVILLE:  I‘m sorry.  We‘re going to stop for a commercial break.  I want to follow up on that in just a second. 

We‘re going to talk more with Glen and Kim Campbell not only about his experience behind bars, but also about his musical career that just doesn‘t seem to ever quit.

More in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(MUSIC)

NORVILLE:  Yes, that‘s the dance version of Glen Campbell‘s big hit song “Rhinestone Cowboy.”  Over the years, his music has encompassed just about everything, country, pop, rock, even Gospel.  He has got two new C.D.s out.  “Glen Campbell the Legacy” is a boxed set of 80 of his hits and favorites of the last 40 years.  And “Love is the Answer: Songs of Faith, Hope and Love,” a collection of Glen‘s inspirational music.

We‘re joined once again by Glen and Kim Campbell from their home in Phoenix, Arizona.

Kim, we got interrupted by the commercial, but I wanted to follow up on something you said just as we were going into the break.  You were talking about self-medicating.  A lot of people hear that term and they look at someone like and you Glen, who have such an incredible life, and they wonder, what‘s to self-medicate?  Can you explain that? 

K. CAMPBELL:  I think he was trying to deal with the anxiety attacks he was having that were brought on, we think, by the painkillers from the dental work. 

NORVILLE:  Yes.  And that was what was making the alcohol seem like a more attractive thing. 

K. CAMPBELL:  Yes. 

NORVILLE:  Glen, I want to change subjects altogether. 

Your music is incredible, that you have been out there for as many years as you have.  But I wonder, would you still be the huge star if “The Glen Campbell Good Time Hour” hadn‘t happened?  How important was that to your career? 

G. CAMPBELL:  It was everything. 

By the time I got to Phoenix, “Wichita Lineman”—“Galveston” was just going to be released.  And that came before “The Good Time Hour.” 

NORVILLE:  Right. 

G. CAMPBELL:  And when “The Good Time Hour” hit, it was just—the television made my career.  I would say that, although I had a pretty good career going at the time.  I was doing studio work, plus going out and doing dates, too, but not the magnitude that it got to.  That was something that really surprised me. 

NORVILLE:  Yes. 

You started your career when you were such a young boy, really.  And you dropped out of high school to get started.  Did you ever go back and finish your degree? 

G. CAMPBELL:  No.  I have an honorary degree now from the University of Southern California, USC. 

NORVILLE:  Right. 

G. CAMPBELL:  That‘s cool. 

But I was always of the mind that all I ever wanted to do was play guitar and sing.  And that was going to be it, because I grew up looking at the north end of a southbound mule, chopping cotton, picking cotton.  We didn‘t have a car.  We went in a wagon and a team.  And I remember that until I was 12 or 13 years old. 

So playing guitar and singing, I guess, it just—that‘s all I wanted to do, heck of a lot lighter than a plow handle. 

NORVILLE:  And you‘ve worked so hard for your career and you‘ve worked so steadily.  I‘m curious, what do you think about the get-famous-fast shows that are out there now, the “American Idol”s and all these contests where it seems like people come out of the woodwork on the chance that they get their 15 seconds on television and, kaboom, they‘re the next Glen Campbell?  What do you think about those guys? 

G. CAMPBELL:  That‘s a wait-and-see thing.  Ask me that question five years from now and I can pretty well answer it for you. 

My idea on it is, if you don‘t learn it on the way up, I don‘t think you‘re just going to instantly be set up here on this level and you‘re going to maintain it.  There‘s a couple of the singers that I heard that can cut it and do it.  But I would say the majority of them, according to my ear and my opinion about singing and playing, yes, I feel kind of sorry for them. 

NORVILLE:  In your music, you talk about this.  And you talk about this, too, in some of the interviews I‘ve seen you give, how important your faith is to both you, Kim and Glen.

Give us a sense of how that aspect of your lives has not only kept you together during the rough spots like last fall, but throughout 20-some-odd years of marriage. 

G. CAMPBELL:  It‘s—the faith has done it.  Kim and I, we read the Bible.  We go to a Messianic congregation, where they teach whole Bible.  And it has just—it has really opened my eyes to a lot of things. 

(CROSSTALK)

K. CAMPBELL:  The Bible covers it all. 

G. CAMPBELL:  It really does.

K. CAMPBELL:  It teaches you how to relate to each other as husband and wife and how to be good parents.  And it‘s full of wisdom.  So that‘s what we use to govern our lives, are the scriptures.

G. CAMPBELL:  Yes. 

K. CAMPBELL:  And our belief in God gives us the faith we possess.  It

gives us our strength to overcome obstacles like what just happened

(CROSSTALK)

G. CAMPBELL:  I will say, I will give her the credit, because she is the rock of my foundation right now.  And if I hadn‘t been with her, I don‘t know where I would have been today. 

NORVILLE:  Yes. 

(CROSSTALK)

G. CAMPBELL:  She has really kept it together. 

NORVILLE:  Well, it is a great testament, more than two decades of marriage, four decades in the music business. 

And, Glen, I know you have got lots to come, more than 100 dates coming up.  They told me that you would do me a big favor if I asked you really nicely, that before we went to the break, that you would sing some songs for us.  Is that possibly true? 

G. CAMPBELL:  Sure.  What do you want to hear that I know? 

(LAUGHTER)

G. CAMPBELL:  Oh, what have I got? 

(MUSIC)

G. CAMPBELL:  Jimmy Webb is just an incredible songwriter.  And, naturally, I love “Rhinestone Cowboy.”  I stop my car on the street to listen to it. 

(MUSIC)

G. CAMPBELL:  I actually broke my G-string.

(MUSIC)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NORVILLE:  This week‘s “American Moment,” a Democratic Convention speech you probably didn‘t catch because most of the networks didn‘t carry it.  But 16,000 people inside the FleetCenter had the pleasure of hearing 12-year-old Ilana Wexler‘s speech.  She is the president of Kids For Kerry. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ILANA WEXLER,  KIDSFORKERRY.ORG:  My name is Ilana Wexler.

I‘m 12 years old. And I am the founder of Kids for Kerry.  Kids for Kerry is a grassroots organization of kids that support John Kerry, want to help their futures and get active in politics.  John Kerry wants to make class sizes smaller so that children get the best part out of learning. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  Ilana skipped summer camp this year to volunteer for the Kerry campaign.  She‘s interested in running for office herself some day, mayor or senator, or, as she put—quote—“President might be nice.”

As you know, you have to be 35 years old to run for president of the United States, which means the soonest Ilana could run is 2028.  So if you‘re having a hard time convincing kids that the Democratic process is important, even interesting, here‘s a new role model. 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WEXLER:  Kids, kids, this is about our future.  Make sure all adults you know get out and vote.  We can have a voice today. 

Thank you!

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE) 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NORVILLE:  And that is our “American Moment.” 

In exactly one month, the Republican Convention will be held in New York City, and we‘ll be there. 

Send us your ideas and comments to us at NORVILLE@MSNBC.com

That‘s our program for tonight.  I‘m Deborah Norville.  Thanks so much for watching.

Coming up next, an “ABRAMS REPORT” special, inside Illinois Governor George Ryan‘s decision to commute the sentences of every single person, all of the 167 inmates on death row in the state of Illinois.  Why did he do it?  Governor George Ryan on “THE ABRAMS REPORT”—next.

END   

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