updated 8/13/2014 10:14:27 AM ET 2014-08-13T14:14:27

THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
August 12, 2014

Guest: Bob Zmuda, Michelle Cornette; Michael Brendan Dougherty

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Rachel, I`ve faced a lot of tough
pitchers in Little League, but nobody as tough as Mo`Ne. Glad I didn`t go
against her.

RACHEL MADDOW, "TRMS" HOST: I know, exactly. Well done.

O`DONNELL: Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks, man.

O`DONNELL: Police in St. Louis County, Missouri, are trying to keep
the peace on the streets of Ferguson, Missouri, tonight, while they also
try to keep their secrets about what happened on one of those streets on
Saturday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(CHANTING)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need justice for my son.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: New clashes and new protests.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Four days after an unarmed teen was shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eighteen-year-old Michael Brown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tensions ran high in Ferguson, Missouri, again
last night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police in riot gear firing tear gas and rubber
bullets.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The violence needs to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fifteen people were arrested.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A heartbroken community is still searching for
answers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are two very different versions of events.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is a long history here of distrust.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The majority of African-American city with a
majority of white police force.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to wonder, like, what year this is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These black kids here in St. Louis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have some very deep-seated racial challenges
here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Walk around with a target on their back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They will not release the name of the officer who
fired the shots.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officer safety is reason.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The FBI is investigating for potential civil
rights violations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We ought to be celebrating my son`s graduation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m not sure we`re going to see this end any time
soon.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But we`re planning a funeral.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O`DONNELL: Tonight in St. Louis County, police and community leaders
are hoping for calm after two turbulent nights of protests over the killing
of 18-year-old Michael Brown, an unarmed teenager shot and killed by a
police officer on Saturday.

Heavily armed police in riot gear have used tear gas and rubber
bullets to force crowds to move away from major thoroughfares and onto side
streets. People in the community have been sharing video of the police
actions on social media. Police say that no one was hurt last night, but
more than a dozen were arrested.

Some people took advantage of the situation last night, and looted
this shoe store. If any of the looters were also joining in the protests,
they were violating the advice of their community leaders and they were
violating the wishes of Michael Brown`s family. Michael Brown`s father
said this today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL BROWN SR., FATHER OF MICHAEL BROWN: I need justice for my
son. I need -- I need everybody to be on one accord.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s right, come on.

BROWN: I need y`all to be -- I understand everybody is -- how they`re
dealing with the situation, because they have losses, too. But I need all
of us to come together and do this right, the right way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

BROWN: The right way, so we can get something done about this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No violence.

BROWN: No violence.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Today, police released preliminary results of the autopsy
of Michael Brown, the autopsy found he died of gunshot wounds but the
police refused to say how many gunshot wounds. They did not disclose that
all of Michael Brown`s gunshot wounds -- they did disclose that all his
gunshot wounds came from the police officer`s gun.

Multiple witnesses had said they saw Michael Brown being shot
repeatedly after he put his hands up. Michael Brown was, of course, found
to be unarmed.

NBC`s Ron Allen is live in St. Louis County where a community
gathering is taking place at this hour.

Ron Allen, what is the situation there now?

RON ALLEN, NBC NEWS: Well, Lawrence, the streets are calm, and that`s
perhaps the most important thing to get across. We are not seeing these
huge crowds that were gathering last night, causing trouble, sometimes
taunting the police back and forth, 15 arrests last night. But for now,
it`s calm.

I think what the day has revealed is the deep divide between the black
community and the leadership and the deep suspicion that this community has
about whether this investigation will be fair, open, and transparent. You
mentioned that the autopsy preliminary reports were released today.

People want to know more. They want to know how many gunshot wounds
the boy Michael Brown suffered. They want to know where those wounds
entered. And, of course, some of this information is going to be released
slowly. But the lack of a lot of information soon is causing a lot of
concern here.

The other issue of the day was this question of the naming of the
police officer who fired the fatal bullet wounds. The police have said
that they can`t do that, release his name, because it`s just too dangerous,
that there have been death threats against the officer and the police
department.

But the community wants to know who this person is. They are
convinced he`s a white officer and that reveals another problem here, that
there are only three or so police officers, African-American police
officers on the police force here in a force of about 50 officers.

So, there are structural problems here. There are divides that are
being exacerbated by this violent outburst that a lot of people here say
was coming at some point.

This is a community that in some ways is a classic example of a place
where you`ve had white flight. You have an urban core that`s about 60
percent to 70 percent African-American, and the leaders, the mayor, the
police chief, members of the city council, the significant leadership of
this community is all white. There seems to be a huge disconnect.

At the meeting here tonight, the governor appeared, Governor Nixon.
As far as I know, it was his first public comments about what happened. He
read carefully from prepared remarks.

He said that this is a time for peace. He said all the things you
would predict, how pained he is by what happened here. He was very
eloquent. And then after his remarks, he left.

The police chief and the mayor made remarks, as well, which were
received well by the crowd that was here. It was a very diverse crowd I
might also add, blacks, whites. This is a fairly middle class part of the
community, unlike the part of the community where this incident happened.

But there were calls for reconciliation. There are many members of
the clergy who were here tonight. There was a coming together.

But I was struck by watching the mayor and the police chief, how
disconnected they seemed from what was going on after they made their
remarks. I was also struck by how uncomfortable the mayor seemed to be
when he started his remarks. I`ve never seen speak in public before, but I
was just struck by how, as the evening went on, they really fell into the
background. They did not lead. They did not have the moral authority to
really take charge of this meeting, which is what you would hope from city
officials.

But again, all just underscored how long a road this community has
going forward -- Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Ron, did the police chief in particular take any questions
from the people assembled there? And what was your feeling specifically
about how the police chief`s presentation was received, given how much
suspicion there is around this case, and how much unprecedented secrecy
there is, like refusing to give the number of shots fired.

ALLEN: Well, the police chief made some very interesting remarks.
One thing he said was that he acknowledged that the Justice Department is
here, and they are very involved in what`s going on. He said at one point
that there are people from the Justice Department here who he has been
discussing this whole situation with. Not so much the investigation, but
the community relations aspect of how the police function in this
community.

And he said, "I`m willing to do whatever they tell me to do." There
was talk, for example, of some civilian review board being set up here.
Again, underscoring the fact that there is a history here of ill-will, bad
relations between the black community and the white-dominated police force
and how many times have we heard that?

He did not take specific questions. But the meeting is still going
on. It`s been going on for several hours and may go on more. No specific
questions, but again, just something of disconnect.

He also made the point that when this happened, he immediately turned
the investigation over to the St. Louis County police so that it would be
fair and impartial and transparent he said. So, he acknowledges, and he
also said that it pains him to be seen as part of the problem -- Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: NBC`s Ron Allen, thanks for joining us tonight, Ron.
We`ll come back to you if there are any more developments out there. Thank
you very much, Ron.

Dorian Johnson says he was walking in the street with Michael Brown
when that police officer pulled up next to them in a patrol car. This is
how Dorian Johnson told that story today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DORIAN JOHNSON, SAYS HE WAS WITH MICHAEL BROWN: When the officer
pulled up on us, he was so close to us and he tried to push his door open
so aggressively. Now, my friend, Big Mike, he`s a real big guy. I`m not
that big, but he`s real big, and we were standing so close to each other,
that when he pushed the door open, it didn`t get a full inch out and hit us
and bounced back on him. Almost in an instant, his arm came out the window
and grabbed my friend around the neck.

But when he shot, he let my friend go, and we took off running.

Now, at this time, when the first shots went off, his vehicle was
parked in a way that both lanes are taken up. No cars can get past, north
or south. It`s three vehicles parked right in front of the scene.

As we`re running, I stepped behind the first vehicle and stooped
slightly. I could tell the officer was in shock, because it took him at
least two or three minutes before he initially got out of the car after the
first shot. It was almost like he made a judgment call or think about what
he had just done or just saw.

And while I`m stooped down behind the vehicle, my friend, Big Mike,
runs past me. He sees me in plain sight. He looks down at me and says,
keep running, bro, verbatim, his exact words.

I`m still in shock, so my body, I can`t move, but my mind is trying to
move but my body can`t move. But this time, the officer is out of the car
now, and I`m standing -- I`m standing up now and the officer is walking
with his gun drawn but it`s almost like he couldn`t see me, because I`m
just standing in plain sight, but he`s walking in such a way that his
vision wasn`t on nobody else but what he was trying to do.

And as he got closer, he fired one more shot. That shot struck my
friend in the back. He then stopped what he was doing and stopped to turn
around what he was doing, with his hands in air, and started to tell the
officer that he was unarmed and he was not, and before he can get his last
words out, the officer fired self-more shots and my friend went down in the
fetal position. And that`s when I took off running.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: And here is the way the man in charge of the local
investigation, the St. Louis County police chief, told the police story
today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHIEF JON BELMAR, ST. LOUIS COUNTY POLICE: One of those individuals
at the time came into -- as the officer was exiting his police car,
allegedly pushed the police officer back into the car where he physically
assaulted the police officer.

It is our understanding at this point in the investigation that within
the police car, there was a struggle over the officer`s weapon. There was
at least one shot fired within the car. After that, the officer came back
out of the car, he exited his vehicle and there was a shooting that
occurred where the officer in fact shot the subject and the subject -- they
were fatal injuries.

The shell casings are all matched to the officer`s weapon. There were
more than a few shell casings recovered. I cannot say at this time how
many times the subject was struck by gunfire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Joining me now is MSNBC.com national reporter Trymaine
Lee, who interviewed Dorian Johnson, and is there on the scene tonight.

Trymaine, this is -- there are unprecedented aspects to this aftermath
of this situation, beginning with leaving this body on the street for
several hours, four hours or so, just an astounding provocation to a
community. And now, these just basic factual kinds of insults going on
there, refusing to say how many police bullets were fired.

They know that fact tonight, as they sit there in their police
offices. They know exactly how many bullets entered the body. They know
these facts. They`re refusing to disclose them.

And this unprecedented refusal, this creation of a secret police, in
effect, we will not tell you the name of the police officer who killed this
boy.

TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC.COM NATIONAL REPORTER: What`s also unprecedented
is, you see the amassing of force. I went to find a place to type earlier
and I went to a target shopping mall. The entire center was filled with
St. Louis County police vehicles, paramilitary vehicles, police officers in
fatigues.

This is very much a story of divide -- a divide between what the
police is saying happened and what witnesses say. A divide between how one
segment of residents here are reacting compared to the other.

Even tonight at the meeting behind me, there was a great kumbaya
moment, you have the mayor, the police chief, you have a motley crew of
black and white, and particularly old. But what`s missing are the angry,
young people, mostly black, male and female, who are down about two miles,
holding signs, raising fists, saying, kill the police! They`re angry and
they`re seething, and that`s what`s missing here.

We talk about the leadership. The people down there, and I feel like
I`m a broken record, Lawrence, we talked about this several times over the
last few weeks, no one is going down and speaking to these young people.
These young people feel they haven`t had a voice. And when they talk about
leadership, they said national leaders and local leaders are coming trying
to get recognition, saying no justice, no peace, but what about them?

And so, there`s so many unprecedented aspects here, particularly in
St. Louis with a history remaining calm and cool under these kinds of
circumstances. To have the violence that we`ve had from the community, and
also the police, launching tear gas canisters, firing rubber bullets. We
talked about unprecedented, there`s a lot going on here and the divide
seems to only be widening.

O`DONNELL: And communities historically have very good reason to be
suspicious of the aftermath of these kinds of killings. Police and
internal affairs divisions, police unions circle the wagons and run a
protection racket frequently for police officers in these situations. And
it`s only when you have enough witnesses on the scene to contradict police
that you have a real chance of getting some kind of fair investigation.

But the other big chance here for the fair investigation is the
federal investigation, which is very clearly going on now, isn`t it?

LEE: I spoke to a department of justice spokesperson earlier who said
they have people on the ground. You have the FBI, you have the community
relations service working the background to work as a mediator. You have
civil rights attorneys on the ground.

So, while the Department of Justice, they made it clear they don`t
want to take over the case, but they want it to be known they are here and
they are watching. Often once it gets to the second level, we have to
clear this level of the investigation first, we don`t know all the
information yet.

But the next step would be -- is there room for the federal government
to come in and use this heavy hand to push one way or the other if they see
fit?

But as of right now, as you mentioned earlier, there`s so much we
don`t know and so much evidence that the local law enforcement leaders are
not giving. We know there`s been a preliminary autopsy report.

One thing that would be interesting, was Michael Brown in fact shot in
the back? Was he shot in the back? How many times was he shot?

All these questions continue to keep this situation seething. So, in
the next coming days, will we get the name of the police officer? Still
more questions than answers.

O`DONNELL: Well, we`re going to get that name. I don`t know whether
that police department knows this or not, but we will get it. It is a
question of time. We normally don`t have to wait this long.

That name is going to be a defendant in a federal civil rights lawsuit
certainly brought by the family and a wrongful death lawsuit brought by the
family. That`s a long way down the road here.

But also, Trymaine, the president issued a statement today, as you
know, saying that this death is heartbreaking. He said the Department of
Justice is investigating the situation, along with local officials. They
will continue to direct those resources.

And as we know, the federal investigation can be run completely
independent of the local and federal charges can be brought totally
independently of local charges, and there`s no double jeopardy component
there when you`re dealing with state and federal charges. So there`s a
real federal role to play.

LEE: Historically, though, the federal rule, they want to step very
carefully, especially when it comes down to matters of race and this kind
of environment which is a powder keg continuing to blow. That`s why you
have the community of relations service here. But as you know, they can
come in independently, but they`re going to step carefully.

O`DONNELL: Well, you know, we can count on one hand the number of
times a president of the United States has actually commented, even
commented on an incident like this, at this stage. This is certainly
getting presidential attention and obviously getting Justice Department
attention.

Trymaine Lee, thank you very much for joining me tonight.

LEE: Certainly.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

LEE: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, a man who helped Robin Williams do his most
important work.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: Today, Lieutenant Keith Boyd of the Marin County sheriff`s
office revealed this at a press conference.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. KEITH BOYD, ASST. CHIEF DEPUTY CORONER: Mr. Williams` personal
assistant became concerned at approximately 11:45 a.m., when he failed to
respond to knocks on his bedroom door. At that time, the personal
assistant was able to gain access to Mr. Williams` bedroom and entered the
bedroom to find Mr. Williams clothed, in a seated position, unresponsive
with a belt secured around his neck, with the other end of the belt wedged
between the closed closet door and the door frame.

The preliminary -- and I again say preliminary -- results of the
forensic examination revealed supporting physical signs that Mr. Williams`
life ended from asphyxia due to hanging.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Coming up, an interview with Robin Williams speaking as
you have never heard him speak.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: In Boston today, the park bench where Robin Williams sat
in "Good Will Hunting" became a memorial to him today.

In San Francisco, fans placed flowers outside the home that was used
in "Mrs. Doubtfire."

While Hollywood honored Robin Williams with a tribute at his star on
the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

Oscar-winning director Barry Levinson who cast Robin Williams in the
career-changing movie "Good Morning, Vietnam" sent me an e-mail this
morning with his thoughts about Robin which later today was posted on
Variety.com.

Barry Levinson wrote, "He was amazingly funny. Not the usual tell a
joke funny. Some other kind of funny. A funny that defies all
imagination. When he was on, he was the human version of a fireworks
display. Funny ideas and characters traveling almost at the speed of
light.

"How is that possible?" More than one person has asked me over the
years when Robin would go on a long wild comedic routine off the top of his
head, "Where does he come up with this? Where does it come from?"

There is no answer to the question. Genius cannot be explained.
There are only a few among us who pass through this world with an ability
that can`t be described or the process understood.

What makes his death so difficult to understand is the question "How
can someone so funny be so sad?" We can reflect on it, try to understand
it, analyze it, but nothing will truly answer the question. The fragility
of the man, his sensitivity, his deep feelings for life -- all that allowed
for him to carve his comedic sensibilities, were the same feelings that
took his life. He felt too much perhaps?

There was always a kindness to Robin. An inquisitive man trying to
understand the madness of mankind. But when the comedy motors were off,
you could sense the vulnerability of the man.

There was always a sense that he could easily be hurt. And if he were
hurt, how quickly could he heal? A bleeder in a world of sharp edges.

There was an innocence to his thoughtful intelligence. If there were
an endangered species list for mankind, he would have been first on that
list. He was perhaps too delicate for this difficult world.

We lost one of a kind. We all lost a friend."

Joining me now, a friend of Robin Williams, comedy writer, producer
and creator of "Comic Relief", Bob Zmuda.

Bob, I know this is a very difficult time for you and a difficult
night. Your reaction to what Barry Levinson wrote about the fragility of
Robin Williams and how easily he could be hurt.

BOB ZMUDA, COMIC RELIEF: He hit it on the head, of course. You know,
I knew Robin Williams for over 35 years before he was a celebrity.

The one thing I knew about Robin is I didn`t know anything about
Robin. He always really cut kind of -- put up a shield and he always had
to keep the show going on. At times, if I met with him for some comic
relief business one on one, it was very uncomfortable. It would be like
being in an elevator with a total stranger.

He couldn`t wait until another person came in the room. If there was
two or more people, he would hit that switch and start performing. And he
was comfortable.

And this is trait with many comedians, that this is almost a
psychological imperative for Robin. Maybe that`s why he was as good as he
was, is because he really needed this to kind of deal with society.
Without it, he was lost.

O`DONNELL: So two or more constituted a quorum for an audience for
Robin and then he was on.

So, Bob, how hard was it to talk him into helping with "Comic Relief"?

ZMUDA: Well, you know, we started this with Robin, Whoopi, Billy and
myself.

(CROSSTALK)

ZMUDA: -- executive at HBO.

And at first, you know, I took the idea from "Live Aid". "Live Aid"
was the first event that turned it around for musicians. I said to HBO, I
said, listen, we know all the comedians. We could do the same thing with
comedians. So, we needed our anchors.

The first person I went to Robin, I was Andy Kaufman`s writer. I
think oddly enough dealing with this deep situation, I think Robin was
feeling bad for me that I had just lost my best friend, Andy Kaufman. So
when I asked him, he said absolutely.

Chris Albrecht from HBO asked Billy. And then the new kid on the
block was Whoopi Goldberg, because he had just done "The Color Purple", and
she called up and she said, can I meet Robin Williams and Billy Crystal?
Of course, she was not aware of how big -- so those three really brought it
together. And because of them, we raised over $70 million for homeless
Americans.

O`DONNELL: And one of our -- Robin`s inputs is he wanted to devote a
serious chunk of that to the homeless.

ZMUDA: Oh, very much so. Robin came from a very well-to-do family
out of Chicago. His dad owned a car dealership. So, he had a silver spoon
in his mouth.

And he always, I think, felt a little guilty about that, that he was
given so much. And he wanted to give back.

So, that issue, listen, they would come in and they would not only
rehearse the show for a few days before hand and the shows were live, as
you know, and sometimes could go on for five hours. But not only that,
those three especially Robin, could go and visit homeless shelters.

So, the guy`s heart was so big. It`s great, everybody seen the comedy
and dramas he did. But I`m telling you, this guy really rolled up his
sleeves and really cared about his fellow human beings.

O`DONNELL: Bob Zmuda, I wish we had more time. I could listen to you
all night about this. Thank you very much for joining us tonight and I`m
very sorry for your loss.

ZMUDA: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Robin Williams as you have never heard him
discussing depression, addiction, and suicide.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE) want to know one thing. How
do you become a stand-up icon?

ROBIN WILLIAMS, ACTOR: Survive. Stay alive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: In the spotlight tonight, depression and suicide
prevention.

Last night we heard about Robin Williams from James Lipton, the best
interviewer of actors in the history of American television. Tonight,
we`re going to hear something that`s a bit more inside show business.
Comedian and actor Marc Maron does what may be the most probing and raw and
surprising interviews that have ever been done in show business and he`s
done most of them right here in Los Angeles in his garage, with many of the
biggest stars of our time, comedians, actors and actresses, and with no
cameras present.

Then Marc Maron puts those interviews on his Web site as pod costs.
These interviews, which have a cult following in show business and beyond,
can be any length that Marc Maron and his guest feel like. They typically
run about 90 minutes, sometimes longer and they use the real language of
their lives, which means we are going to have to bleep out some of the f
words in what you`re about to heard. I, for one, find every one of Marc
Maron`s interviews mesmerizing, whether I like the work of the person he is
interviewing or not because when Marc sets the mood of just a couple of
guys talking in a garage, they can go very, very deep. And they can be
funny and laugh about some very dark stuff.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARC MARON, ACTOR: Drinking is just drinking --

WILLIAMS: No, no. I think it is trying to fill the holes and its
fear and you kind of doing what I am doing to my career and you start
thinking, you know, what would be great at this point, be rehab. But it is
the idea of just you bottom out.

But it`s -- you know, it was that weird (bleep) thing if you, you have
all these stuff. But the weird thing, and the only sanity clause and that
sounds like a Marx mother, hey, I don`t believe in a sanity clause. The
idea is going on stage is the one salvation.

MARON: So, before you have the heart surgery -- I mean, you don`t
seem to me like someone who is like morbidly fascinated or hung up on
death?

WILLIAMS: No. I mean, it is weird. I mean, when I was drinking, it
was only one time, even for a moment, (bleep) I know what like. And even
my country is playing with --

MARON: (INAUDIBLE)

WILLIAMS: (INAUDIBLE)Things are pretty good, each though you may not
be working right now.

MARON: Yes. Let`s stop with the suicide and leave that over here in
the discussion area. We`ll talk about that. First of all, you don`t have
the balls to do it. I`m not going to say it out loud. Have you thought
about buying a gun?

WILLIAMS: No.

MARON: What were you going to do, cut your wrist with a water pick?

WILLIAMS: Maybe.

MARON: That`s erosion. Why are you thinking about that? Can I put
this over here in the what the (bleep) category?

WILLIAMS: Let`s put that over here in what the (bleep).

MARON: Can I ask you what are you doing right now?

WILLIAMS: You are sitting naked in a hotel room with the bottle of
Jack Daniels.

MARON: Is this maybe influencing your decision?

WILLIAMS: Possibly.

MARON: OK. We`re going to put it over here. Who is that on the bed
there?

WILLIAMS: I don`t know. Don`t discuss this with her because she may
tweet it, OK. We`ll put that over here possibly for therapy for maybe for
a podcast two years from now. Who is this? It`s your conscience (bleep).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O`DONNELL: Joining me now is Michelle Cornette, executive director of
the American Association of Suicidology .

Michelle, what do you hear when you hear Robin Williams entertaining
these thoughts about suicide?

MICHELLE CORNETTE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF
SUICIDOLOGY: Well, the thoughts are concerning obviously. I mean, we know
that individuals who have these sorts of thoughts are more likely to go on
to have additional thoughts, and to be at risk and some aren`t, but for
suicidal behavior later on.

O`DONNELL: And Barry Leavenson wrote today, there`s something about
wondering if there`s something in the artistic temperament that makes for
more vulnerability. And William Styron in his book "darkness visible,"
which he explores his own depression, which he thinks of as a genuine
disease, listed a bunch of artists from Van Gogh to Hemingway to others who
committed suicide.

And then he said, when one thinks of these doomed and splendidly
creative men and women, one is drawn to contemplate their childhoods worth
to the best of anyone`s knowledge to siege of the illness takes strong
root. Could any of them had a hint then of the psyche`s perishability, its
excusive fragility and why they were destroyed while others similarly
stricken struggled through.

Michelle, what is it that separates those that struggle through with this
and those who don`t make it through?

CORNETTE: Meaning individuals who struggle with mental health issues?

O`DONNELL: And suicidal thoughts.

CORNETTE: Yes. Well, that`s a complex question. I mean, there are
really a myriad of factors that contribute to risk for suicidal behavior.
Thomas Joyner happens to be a well-known researcher in the field of suicide
who talks about something called acquired capability as being necessary to
essentially take someone from serious suicidal thinking or suicidal intent
to engage in suicidal behavior.

And basically he talks about the idea that one has to overcome
essentially what he describes as self-preservation instinct that we have as
human beings. And so, we have to overcome in part amongst some other
things the fear associated with pain, injury, and death in order for that
to occur.

O`DONNELL: In Styron`s book, he talks about this feeling that`s
called depression as like a storm in the brain. That`s like something
that`s attacking the brain and completely debilitating it. I want to read
something that Robin Williams` daughter said today, because I think the
children of people who commit suicide are left in a terribly precarious
situation that I would like to talk about.

She said, he was always warm even in his darkest moments. While I`ll
never ever understand how he could be loved so deeply and not find it in
his heart to stay, there`s minor comfort in knowing our grief and loss in
some small way is shared with millions.

What would you say to Robin Williams` daughter, Zelda, about this?

CORNETTE: Well, I think it`s not at all uncommon for survivors of
suicide loss to feel betrayed and to question and not understand how their
loved one could end their life so prematurity and leave them essentially
without that person.

I think what`s really important to keep in mind with respect to
suicidal thinking and individuals who die by suicide is that they have
essentially reached a cognitive state where they`re not really thinking
about other people. In fact, there`s some interesting research that`s come
out in recent years indicating there`s a very strong association between
perceptions of burden on others and risk for suicide, meaning the
individuals come to believe that their death is worth more than their life
to their loved ones.

And so in an interesting way, although this is not how surviving
family members feel and I respect that very much, you know, the person who
dies by suicide may, in fact, be thinking of others.

O`DONNELL: Well, I have to say, having read earlier Styron`s
description of what goes through the sick mind as these kinds of thoughts
consume, there`s just no logic or lines to be drawn in there at all it
seems. It does seem as the way he describes it to be a horrible storm that
the brain just can`t survive.

Michelle Cornette, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

CORNETTE: You`re welcome.

O`DONNELL: Thank you.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You know how to whistle don`t you, Steve? You
just put your lips together and blow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Lauren Bacall was 19-years-old when she made her film day
debut in "To have and have not," (INAUDIBLE) 70 years ago. She went on to
star beside her beloved in "the big sleek dark passage" and "Key largo
(ph)." Her other films include "how to Mary a millionaire" with Marilyn
Monroe and "designing women" with Gregory Peck. She received her first
Oscar nomination in 1997 for "the mirror has two faces" directed by Barbara
Streisand. She was awarded an honorary Oscar in 2009. Lauren Bacall was
also a two-time Tony award winner. Lauren Bacall died tonight at the age
of 89. She was married to Humphrey Bogart from 1945 until his death in
1957. And to Jason Robards from 1961 to 1969.

Lauren Bacall leaves her children, Steven Bogart, Leslie Boagrt and
Sam Robards. Sam Robards has for a long time been a friend of mine. And I
had the honor of being introduced to his mother by Sam a very long time
ago. And Sam worked with me in the best wing when I cast him for U.S. when
he freaks will remember this as the reporter Greg Brock.

Very sorry for your loss, Sam.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: In the rewrite tonight, throwing like a girl. All right,
now it`s time for our first-ever audience participation. I want everyone
who is physically able, every man, woman, and child out there to stand up -
- come on now, get off your sofas, stand up and throw like a girl, OK?
One, two, three, throw like a girl. Great, well done. Now sit down and
watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Erin.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, so I`m going to give you some actions to do.
Just do the first thing that comes to mind. Show me what it looks like to
run like a girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my hair.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Show me what it looks like to fight like a girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now throw like a girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My name is Dakota, and I`m 10 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Show me what it looks like to run like a girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Throw like a girl. Fight like a girl. What
does it mean to you when I say run like a girl?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It means run as fast as you can.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So do you think you just insulted your sister?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. I mean, yes, insulted girls, but not my
sister.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is "like a girl" a good thing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know what it really -- if it`s a bad
thing or good thing. It sounds like a bad thing. It sounds like you`re
trying to humiliate someone.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So when they`re in that vulnerable time when 10
and 12, how do you think it affects them when somebody uses like a girl as
an insult?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it drops their self-confidence, and
really puts them down, because during that time they`re already trying to
figure themselves out and when somebody says you hit like a girl, it`s
like, well, what does that mean? Because they think they`re a strong
person. It`s like telling them that they`re weak and not as good as them.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what advice do you have to young girls who
are told they run like a girl, kick like a girl, hit like a girl, swim like
a girl.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Keep doing it, because it`s working. If
somebody says running like a girl or kicking like a girl or shooting like a
girl is something you shouldn`t be doing, that`s their problem. Because if
you`re still scoring and you are still getting to the ball on time and you
are still being first, you`re doing it right. It doesn`t matter what they
say. I mean, yes, I kick like a girl and I swing like a girl, and I walk
like a girl and I wake up in the morning like a girl because I am a girl.
And that`s not something that I should believe ashamed of. So I`m going to
do it anyway. That`s what they should do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I asked you to run like a girl now, would you
do it differently?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would run like myself.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you like a chance to redo it?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why can`t run like a girl also mean win the
race?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O`DONNELL: So, if I asked you to throw like a girl now, would you do
it differently? If I tried to throw like a girl now, which I`m not going
to do, because this desk is in the way, I would try to throw just like
Monae Davis.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Monae Davis, she, yes, she was electric. She`s
become the story so far of the road to Williamsport. She throws a 70-mile-
an-hour fastball. And then, yes, double play. Pennsylvania clenches the
final spot in the American bracket. Monae and her squad are going to
Williamsport.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: That`s right. Monae Davis has led her Pennsylvania team
to the little league world series which begins Thursday in Williamsport,
Pennsylvania. Monae`s team plays their first game on Friday. And when she
takes the mound and shows her stuff, every little leaguer in America is
going to wish they could throw like that girl.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Monae Davis, she, yes, she was electric. She`s
become the story so far of the road to Williamsport. She throws a 70-mile-
an-hour fastball.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton now sounds like Dick Cheney.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or like John McCain. Can you tell the
difference between John McCain and Hillary Clinton? I don`t think there`s
any love lost between the Clintons and the Obamas. I know how that has all
been (INAUDIBLE). They get all well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Those comments were inspired by an interview Hillary
Clinton did which she offered this criticism of President Obama`s approach
to international relations.

Great nations need organizing principles and don`t do stupid stuff is
not an organizing principle.

Obama campaign mastermind David Axelrod tweeted, just to clarify,
don`t do stupid stuff means stuff like occupying Iraq in the first place
which was a tragically bad decision. Senator Hillary Clinton, of course,
voted to authorize the war in Iraq, which Barack Obama opposed. Today, one
of Hillary Clinton`s spokesman released this statement.

Earlier today, the secretary called President Obama to make sure he
knows that nothing she said was an attempt to attack him.

Joining me now is Michael Brendan Dougherty, senior correspondent for
theweek.com.

Michael, don`t do stupid stuff, if it was the organizing principle of
American international relations, would be the single best organizing
principle we have ever had. We would finally stop doing stupid stuff.

MICHAEL BRENDAN DOUGHERTY, SENIOR CORRESPONDENT FOR THEWEEK.COM:
Right. It`s kind of unbelievable. You know, Barack Obama`s foreign policy
certainly can be criticized, but it`s been a vast improvement over his
predecessor. And it`s just sort of -- he beat Hillary Clinton on foreign
policy. He said that on the biggest foreign policy decision post Vietnam
she had made the wrong decision and he beat her. And now she seems to be
emphasizing that she disagrees with him and is more hawkish than him,
leading to a presumptive run for the democratic nomination. It doesn`t
make much sense.

O`DONNELL: Yes. And she`s very conscious of how her word also be
interpreted. And so we`re seeing the gang here of, you know, says these
things to Jeffrey Goldberg of "the Atlantic" and then we have the spokesman
statement tonight saying, you know, it`s not an attack on the president.
Certainly FOX News is taking it to be an attack on the president, which she
had to anticipate.

DOUGHERTY: Not only that, but "the Weekly Standard," which was sort
of the hot bed of hawkishness during the Bush years reprinted her words on
her byline in their magazine as if it was their own editorial. And if to
emphasize the point, putting it under the title of a criticism of Barack`s
failed foreign policy.

It just seems like such an off-game move for secretary Clinton. And
you know, her spokesman not only said it wasn`t meant as a criticism, but
they will hug it out at a fund raising in Martha`s Vineyard tonight. I`m
wondering if we`ll actually see that.

O`DONNELL: Yes, it seems like we`re probably in store for a little
more of this, as her presidential campaign, which is absolutely under way,
continues.

DOUGHERTY: Right. And you know, it will be interesting to see how
Obama reacts to it and how others in his camp react to it. He already --
when these criticisms were voiced by Republican senators the day after
Clinton`s interview, Obama responded that this is, how to put it, horse
stuff.

O`DONNELL: A word you can`t say on TV.

DOUGHERTY: Right.

O`DONNELL: Right. Well we will see if he get that far with Hillary`s
comments.

Michael Brendan Dougherty, thank you very much for joining us tonight.

DOUGHERTY: Thanks, Lawrence.

END

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