THE ED SHOW
August 19, 2014
Guest: James Clyburn, E.J. Dionne, Matt Pearce, Jelani Cobb, Lawrence
Kobilinsky, Mike Papantonio, Holland Cooke
ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Americans, and welcome to THE ED
SHOW live from New York. Let`s get to work.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN`S MOTHER: Right now it`s really up to
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to need to keep focus on Michael Brown Junior.
CAPT. RON JOHNSON, MISSOURI STATE HIGHWAY PATROL: Today my hope is
peaceful protesters will stay hold.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone on the Ferguson Market parking lot. Each
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They could not stand there, they could not assemble
there. They had to keep moving.
JOHNSON: But let`s give attention to the peaceful, not to those determined
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our cameras were rolling as the National Guard starting
rolling out at its South St. Louis facility.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It looked more military than anything else.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The so-called militarization of local police forces.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: To a community in Ferguson
that is rightly hurting.
MCSPADDEN: This is what bring peace.
OBAMA: That seek to heal, rather than to wound each other.
MCSPADDEN: We have to remain strong and the violence needs to stop.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: The violence needs to stop. Good evening everybody, the crisis
in Ferguson, Missouri is only getting worse. Certainly the last 24 hours,
not any better. Monday night, marked the 10th and most intense night of
clashes between police and protesters. A small group of people shoot at
police -- threw rocks and Molotov cocktails. Four St. Louis police
officers were hit by rocks and bottles and sustained injuries.
Seventy-eight people were arrested throughout the evening, the majority of
people arrested were from the Missouri but there were arrest from as far
away as New York. It`s clear the National Guard as being called into
Ferguson did very little to calm the violence. I thought it was bad move,
it didn`t get any better.
Earlier this morning, Captain Ron Johnson made it clear a small number of
criminals are responsible for the violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Anyone who has been at these protests understands that there is a
dangerous dynamic in the night. It allows a small number of violent
agitators to hide in the crowd and then attempt to create chaos. The
catalysts can be bottles thrown, Molotov cocktails, and of course shots
fired. Protesters are peaceful and respectful. Protesters don`t clash with
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: In a different move, Captain Johnson also called for protesters
to gather in the daylight hours. The police want to separate the criminal
element from the peaceful protesters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: Because of the dangers posed tonight, I want to encourage the
good people of this area to come out and protest tomorrow during the day
time hours. Make your voices heard, where you can be seen and we are the
cover for violent agitators. That is my suggestion. I like the people
concerned about peace in Ferguson to consider that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Attorney General Eric Holder will be on the scene in Fergusson
Missouri tomorrow. The St. Louis County prosecutor offers -- said a grand
jury could convene in Wednesday to determine if Officer Darren Wilson will
face criminal charges from the shooting of Michael Brown.
Meanwhile, I want to highlight another recent protest and compare it to
what has been unfolding in the way it`s happened in Ferguson, Missouri.
For decades, freeloading rancher Cliven Bundy refused to pay his grazing
fees. Bundy says he doesn`t recognize the federal government`s authority.
OK. So in April an armed group of protesters came to defend Bundy and get
his cattle back.
The militia had no problem aiming their rifles at federal agents just
trying to do their jobs. When this got too dangerous the BLM, Bureau of
Land Management, well, they backed off, released Bundy`s cattle and ended
the situation. Bundy still hasn`t seen any punishment for his lawless
actions in the Nevada dessert.
Now, compare that to what`s happening in Ferguson, Missouri. For the most
part, peaceful protesters are gathering in the call for justice for the
killing on an innocent 18-year-old man by police. They are being met with
an overwhelming police presence in show of force. They haven`t broken the
law, many of them. Unlike the BLM in the Bundy situation, police are
intensifying their presence.
The National Guard has been called in. Police are harassing photographers
and reporters. I think it`s fair to say that the police are making the
situation worse with an overwhelming show of force. Cliven Bundy`s
protesters, well they point guns at federal agents and absolutely not
charges are filled against anyone.
In one single night of protest in Missouri, 78 people were arrested. Most
of them were charged with refusal to disperse. What about that in Nevada?
Compare those arrests to the man on the bridge pointing a rifle at federal
agents. Who do you think deserves to be arrested?
My question tonight is, when does all these going to end? If the grand
jury convenes tomorrow, clearly, the wheels of justice are in motion. The
President has gone on record with this situation. The attorney general
will be on the scene tomorrow. The governor is going to continue to have
pressure on him to do more.
There`s going to be a vetting process of this prosecutor to the nth degree.
But maybe, if the protesters were to back off and the media were to back
off, which probably is just wishful thinking, maybe injuries would be
averted. Do we have to go through all of these at this point? I`m
convinced personally that oh, yes. Something`s really big, just as why
it`s going to happen in this whole thing.
But do we have to see tear gas launched at people who don`t deserve it? Do
they have to be protesting in a certain way to satisfy police and the
reports that are coming out of Ferguson, Missouri lend us to believe that
the police don`t even know how to enforce all of these. Let`s all cool our
jets for a moment.
For more, let me bring in Congressman James Clyburn of South Carolina.
Congressman, good to have you with us tonight. You have....
REP. JAMES CLYBURN, (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: Thank you very much for having
SCHULTZ: When do these protests end? You`re thoughts on what has unfolded
in recent days. The showing up of the National Guard certainly didn`t
alleviate any of the pressure on anybody last time. What`s your analysis
at this point?
CLYBURN: Well, Ed. The only thing I didn`t compare this to is a history
of these kinds of protest. I agree with Ron Johnson, we can make the point
by carrying out these protests early in the evenings. I don`t know that we
had to wait until midnight in order to petition for a redress of
grievances. I was thinking just today, all the times I was ever arrested
for protesting, it was all between 10:00 AM and noon. And we were very
effective in carrying out our redress.
I do believe that they ought to allow the people come home from work 6:30-
7:00 in the evenings, let`s have big protest movements, let`s go to a
central place and express our feelings and then let`s retire to our
residence so that we can be on time, just talk things over the next day.
Something needs to be done to keep the peaceful people of Ferguson away
from those people who are using the cover of darkness to carry out their
unlawful activities. I agree with Mr. Johnson that that is the way we
ought to go from this point forward.
SCHULTZ: Congressman, is it fair? People in Ferguson have been arrested
for refusal to disperse while none of the Bundy militia people are arrested
at all. In fact, agents backed off.
CLYBURN: That`s my point. I think that when you have this lawless
element, using the cover of darkness, police officers get nervous, and we
can understand that. I do believe that the police ought to be assisting
the protesters but I think that the people of the community may ought to
work with Mr. Johnson and seek, and we get these grievances addressed in a
way that can be effective. It`s one thing, just to do something. It`s
something else to be effective in what you do. I want to see the protest
SCHULTZ: Congressman, the role of the president and the attorney general,
obviously, Attorney General Eric Holder has limited power. He can`t tell
the governor what to do. He can`t come in and change the prosecution. He
can`t set the grand jury. So from a federal level, from what we have seen
so far, what are your expectations and how is this all going to end as you
CLYBURN: Well, we have two tracks going here. Was the officer criminal in
what he did? If so, that`s a state issue. Did that officer violate the
civil rights of Michael Brown? That is a separate, and I think a federal
issue. So I don`t see why these things have to be mutually explosive.
These things can go on separate tracks at he same time. And maybe you want
to stay -- the civil proceedings until after the criminal proceedings are
over but in order to conduct the kind of investigation that needs to be
conducted, you don`t have to wait to investigate it.
I think that the FBI, other federal officials can move now to begin
developing the civil rights case as the grand jury it will be -- either
behind closed doors to consider whether or not any criminal charges ought
to be brought.
Haven`t said that, remember that the president of the United States,
whenever he cares to do so, can in fact federalized the National Guard. It
has been done in these kinds of cases before, both Republican Presidents
and Democratic Presidents. So there`s nothing partisan about going forward
to this. Dwight Eisenhower did it back in Little Rock Arkansas back in the
1950s. And John F. Kennedy did it in the 1960s. So, this is not a
partisan event here. The President will be within his rights to federalize
the National Guard if it comes to that.
SCHULTZ: And what would bring it to that in you opinion?
CLYBURN: Well, I think after the report of the shooting today, over in
Saint Louis, all of these is kind of up in the air. I hesitate to say what
might happen tonight because I don`t what all the facts are surrounding
that shooting over in Saint Louis. But I do believe that the President is
right to send Mr. Holder there, and I hope that the Attorney General will
be very vigilant in carrying out his duties and responsibilities. And I
would hope he would interact with the people there especially the clergy
who I saw on TV last night. They seem to have things pretty much under
control, is so far as they can deal with it.
SCHULTZ: OK. Congressman James Clyburn, I appreciate your time tonight.
Thanks for joining us here on THE ED SHOW.
Let me bring in E.J. Dionne a columnist of The Washington Post and an MSNBC
contributor. E.J., comparing the situations in the past like Kent State,
where things can spiral out of control. Back at that day, and I mentioned
this last night, those National Guards men were there to make sure
everything was OK and that they were going to be involved in crowd control,
they did not go there with the expectation of shooting students.
And not to say that that`s going to happen in Ferguson, but when you have
so much force on the scene and you have so many emotionally charged people
and now, going into night number 11, who knows where the hell this is going
to go. How do you diffuse it? What`s the best way to cool everybody`s
jets on this?
E.J. DIONNE, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, I think bringing in Captain
Johnson and the state police was a good move right off the top. Even
though it hasn`t had the effect, people hope because he has been so clear
in defending the rights of peaceful protesters while trying to sell --
separate them out from -- as he pointed earlier the acts of violent
criminals. And so, I think that was a step in the right direction.
I also think obviously, that the hyper-militarization and bringing out all
that equipment really made the situation worse. Although I`ll be publicly
honest with you Ed, I don`t know how exactly when something like this gets
out of hand. You can deal with it. I would say that the Kent State and
also the killing around the same time at Jackson State in Mississippi were
part of a nationwide protest against President Nixon`s decision to go into
This was a started out as a terrible but isolating case, but it`s
developing a real national impact both because of the nature of our media,
but also because the issues of the militarization of our police forces and
the dangers faced by young black man, these are now -- these are becoming a
symbol for this larger argument that we have them having for a while as a
country. And this is just really brought it home to last.
SCHULTZ: Well the thing that I fear is that, this is going to be the
benchmark issue and also example of how black communities in America are
treated if they have an issue and they want to protest. Just bring out all
the force you possibly can and let them have it. And that`s this -- I
don`t believe that that would happen, this way in other communities. And
so, I just don`t feel that local law enforcement has got a real pulse of
this community where they would know how to handle this crowd, and I think
clergy plays a huge role right now and they seem to be doing everything
they possibly can. But when you see these images, how will this further
the dialog on race relations in America if this is how minority communities
are met when they have issues?
DIONNE: Oh, I couldn`t agree with you more. I mean, you mentioned the
comparison with the Bundy case. Yes, of course arrest people who were
violent, those folks last night. But the notion that peaceful protests are
going to face some kind of charges when the guys at Nevada never -- did not
charges, there`s something wrong with that. There`s something wrong with
the hyper military response to peaceful protesters.
I mean, people in Ferguson had and have a legitimate grievance. And we`ve
talked before about the disparity between the make up of the local police
force versus the make up of the community. People have to feel represented
in their government. And I think you a re going to see -- I suspect a real
political result, not in the bad way but in the good way...
DIONNE: . in the next elections there, where people are going to step up
and say, wait a minute, this isn`t how the government of our town, our city
ought to behave.
SCHULTZ: E.J. Dionne, good to have you with us tonight. Thanks so much.
DIONNE: Good to be with you.
SCHULTZ: You bet. Coming up, journalists are being harass and intimidated
for doing their job in Ferguson Missouri. We`ll bring you the latest on
the reporters being arrested for trying to get the story out.
Plus our grand jury could convene tomorrow to decide if Officer Darren
Wilson will face criminal charges. America`s Attorney Mike Papantonio
brings us the latest details.
Stay with us. We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Let me also be clear that our constitutional rights to speak
freely, to assemble and to report in the press must vigilantly safeguarded,
especially moments like these.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Thanks for watching tonight. Hours
after President Obama expressed his support for reporters on the ground in
Ferguson. Six more journalists were arrested during last night`s clashes
between protesters and law enforcement.
At this point, journalists in Ferguson look more like they`re reporting
from a combat zone. Many are wearing tear gas masks or bullet proof vest.
Protesters and journalist have been forced to dodge tear gas, bean bags, or
Journalist are being confined to designated zones which can changes the
whim of whatever law enforcement or somebody point a gun at him, or barking
the orders change his mind. Journalists in Ferguson are facing harassment,
intimidation, and arrest from law enforcement officers who are there to
protect and serve. A total of 11 journalists have been arrested since the
Hostesses (ph) America in 2014 and freedom of the press is under attack as
I see it. What`s going on in Ferguson is hard to watch which is exactly
why it needs to be documented. Imagine the potential of unchecked power if
all eyes were not on Ferguson, the free and unrestricted flow of
information to public and something which sets our country apart. We are
not a police state. The American people deserve the full story.
Joining me tonight, Matt Pearce, national reporter for "The Los Angeles
Times" and also Jelani Cobb, contributing writer for "The New Yorker", both
gentlemen obviously on the ground. Matt, you first, what have you
witnessed that you would consider to be overboard treatment of journalist
on the ground?
MATT PEARCE, LOS ANGELES TIMES: Well, you know, ultimately it`s not my
place to say what is overboard. I think that is the public`s decision.
But what I can say is that, it is hard to see the action when we are placed
in pens from a distance from where police are shooting tear gas at
demonstrators. Many of them are peaceful, some of them are not, but it`s
hard for us to see that.
And, I know that the police are saying that they want to do that for our
protection and from their protection but we`re supposed to be out there as
an independent eye for the public, you know, or standings for the public
and we can`t really do our job if we can`t see what`s happening.
SCHULTZ: Jelani Cobb, do you think that media is being picked on?
JELANI COBB, NEW YORKER: I don`t know if I consider the media as being
picked on. But I think, yes that people are treating the media
indiscriminately. And there certainly seems to be a degree of antagonism
towards the media. And so, I`m not entirely comfortable with the idea that
people are being prevented from entering for their own safety because, you
know, news reporters cover wars.
And, you know, going to place where there are active conflicts all the
time. And so under the guise of protecting the safety of journalist, it
also gives them a great deal of leeway to do things that the public would
be not happy with, worthy (ph) to witness it, or worthy to witness it
through the eyes of a reporter. And so, none of these makes me very
SHULTZ: Would you say, Jelani that the law enforcement officials who may
have been there night after night so far are just loosing their patience
and getting tired of this, feed up and they`re just going to make a move on
it, and maybe not using their best judgment considering the circumstances?
COBB: Well, possibly but the antagonism preceded that. The antagonism has
been ongoing theme in the way people interacted. I know I got here on
Wednesday and there was that dynamic then, and so perhaps this gotten worst
but it certainly just start, it didn`t just begin.
SCHULTZ: In a news conference late last night, Missouri State Highway
Patrol Captain Ron Johnson had this to say about the arrest of journalist
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHNSON: I`m going to tell you in a midst of chaos, when officers are
running around, we`re not sure who`s a journalist and who`s not. So yes,
we may take some of you into custody, but when we do take you in the
custody and we have found out that you`re journalist, we have taken the
proper action. But in the midst of it we cannot, in a midst of it, in the
miss of chaos in trying to move people on, we have to be safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Matt Pearce, what`s your response to that?
PEARCE: Well, I`m not entirely sure if that is current -- the case, as of
last night we had a reporter for The Intercept, Ryan Devereaux get
arrested. He was held in jail overnight. I`ve not heard an explanation
for why he was held that long. I imagine he identify himself as press.
You know, I understand that out on the ground, things could be really
intense and that -- maybe foot level officers, you know, may not have been
properly trained or may not be completely calm in the situation in which we
have journalist standing out with demonstrators.
And, you know, sometimes the journalists aren`t clearly marked as press.
And, you know, maybe they arrest them, but for journalist to be sitting in
jail cell overnight I think requires a little bit more explanation.
SCHULTZ: Jelani, there`s a lot of journalist who are running around
without the usual camera equipment. They have their iPhone, that`s how our
business is these days. The social media is a big part of what they`re
doing. They become eye witnesses and then they have to say, "Oh by the way
I`m a Journalist".
SCHULTZ: Has that been part of the problem? The method of reporting is a
heck of a lot more contemporary than it used to be.
COBB: There`s that certainly, you know, I have been -- concern myself,
when people getting us -- didn`t really think I was a reporter. Yeah,
granted I don`t, maybe don`t look exactly about -- like, what their idea of
a reporter might look like. But, you know, that is one of the other
dynamics, like people are whipping out cellphones. But there are people
who have, you know, kind of clearly identifiable things that, you know,
cameras that only a media organization would have. And it doesn`t seem
like they`re being pretty much different either.
SCHULTZ: Jelani, do you think that there`s been different instructions
given to the media in dealing with this, that maybe law enforcement is not
really consistent in the way they`ve been handling it and I know it`s a
chaotic situation. It`s not going to be a perfect world but has there been
confusion on what is expected of you and what`s allowed and what isn`t
COBB: Well, there have been different people in charge at different times
but one of the thing -- just to echo Matt`s point is that the station that
was setup, you know, this safe point as oppose to the setup (ph) for media
yesterday was fully a mile, if not a little bit more away from where all
the protest and the real exchange between the demonstrators and the police
was happening. And so, is that really for safety? Is that to, you know,
make it more difficult? Is it from, you know, they`re coming from the
National Guard? Is that coming from Captain Johnson? It`s all very hard
to know right now.
SCHULTZ: So Matt Pearce, is this just nothing but a big balancing act on
the part of media? You want to get in the crowd, find out what the people
are saying and don`t miss anything but then pay attention to what the cops
are saying at the same time. I mean this becomes really -- it`s social
engineering of a story about how you have to cover it and you have to use
your instinct to know exactly what the limitations are. How else do you
PEARCE: You know, I think you`re right to call the balancing act. You
know, it`s a balancing act to get the story. It`s a balancing act to make
decisions for our own safety and it`s a balancing act in terms of listening
to the police. You know, when the police say that there`s a curfew at
midnight, no one should be out on the streets, does that include
You know, is that clearly defined as the first amendment 10 that we`re
locked up in. Is that going to be constitutional? Those are the kinds of
things that I`m thinking about and then the fact is that it`s also
dangerous out in the field too. You know, we`ve had at least seven people
who have been shot over the last week or so of demonstrations, you know.
PEARCE: . two last night, two the night before, one the night before. You
know, it`s dangerous out there, you know, I`ve had demonstrators warn me
that there are people coming with guns and I`ve heard gun shots. So, it`s
not a safe environments and it`s also not very clear in terms of, you know,
what we should do either for our own safety sometimes and what we should do
in terms of listening to the police and how we could balance that with the
need to got the information out to the public and the need to keep safety.
SCHULTZ: And finally, do you think that there are some journalists on the
scene who don`t care if they get arrested?
PEARCE: I think that might be the case but I`m not one of them I`d like to
keep doing my job.
COBB: I can`t see if anyone else. I`m trying to give. I think about it,
before they get arrested, it would make it difficult for me to observe
what`s going on. So it`s a deterrent in that sense and that`s probably the
only concern I have about it.
SCHULTZ: All right. Matt Pearce, Jelani Cobb, great to have both of you
with us tonight. I appreciate you time. Stay safe.
Coming up, Ferguson citizens call for the arrest for the officer who shot
Michael Brown. Plus, the right-wing pushes the black-on-black crime
But next, I`m taking your questions, Ask Ed Live just ahead here on THE ED
SHOW at MSNBC. We`ll be right back.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. I appreciate the questions tonight
in out Ask Ed Live segment. Our first question comes from Tom (ph). He
want`s to know, "Where is the Tea Party group`s outrage over the
militarization of the police?"
Well, it is in a minority area so I wouldn`t expect them to have any
outrage. Yes. I do believe they are racists. That`s my opinion. They
haven`t proven otherwise.
As far as the militarization of the police, look I`m all for law
enforcement having all the tools they need because of the Department of
Homeland Security, most recent reports says the biggest threat is within
our borders with all of these antigovernment militia groups that are
propping up all over the place. It`s how they use the equipment is the key
Our next question is from Nekole. She want`s to know, "Do you think that
tensions might ease if it is announced that the Officer Darren Wilson has
been arrested?" I would hope that the tensions would ease of the grand
jury is convene tomorrow. If they want justice, there are processes that
have to be followed. That would be a big first step, convening the grand
jury. But yes, I would think that tempers would cool and emotions would
settle a little bit once we get the wheels of justice in motion, which I
have very -- a great feel of confidence that this is going to happen.
Stick around, Rapid Response Panel is next.
JANE WELLS, CNBC MARKET WRAP REPORTER: I`m Jane Wells with your CNBC
It was a good down Wall Street. The Dow jumped to 80 points. The S&P up 9
and the NASDAQ added 19.
Now, one reason and sign the housing market is improving, home construction
topped expectations in July. Housing starts surge nearly 16 percent.
Apple shares returned to triple digit, hitting $100 for the first time
since it`s 701 split in June. Everyone is all excited about the new iPhone
coming out next month.
And former Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer officially stepped down from the
company`s board. Ballmer wants to focus more time on his new team, the
L.A. Clippers and I think Doc Rivers doesn`t have a Windows Phone.
That`s it from CNBC, first in business world wide.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. As protests continue in Ferguson
Missouri, the calls for charges against Officer Darren Wilson grow louder.
The officer who allegedly shot 18-year-old Michael Brown is currently on
paid administrative leave from the Ferguson Police Department. A Missouri
grand jury could start hearing evidence as early as tomorrow to determine
if Officer Wilson will be charged in the man`s death.
A spokesman for the Saint Louis county prosecuting attorney told NBC news,
the charges could range from first degree murder, to involuntary
manslaughter but Wilson may not face charges at all. The spokesman did not
give a timeline for the case. Now, friends of the officer are speaking out
in his defense.
On Friday, a caller to Dana Loesch`s radio show identifying herself as a
friend of Darren Wilson recounted the version of events told to her by
Wilson`s significant other.
NBC news has not independently confirmed the identity of the caller or
relationship to Wilson.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
"JOSIE", FRIEND OF DARREN WILSON: At one point he got the gun totally
turned against his hip and Darren, you know, shoves it away and the gun
goes off. Well, then Michael takes off with his friend, they get to be
about 35 feet away, and, you know, Darren`s first protocol is to pursue.
So, he stands up and yells freeze. Michael and his friend turn around and
Michael starts taunting him, "Oh what are you going to do about it, you
know, you`re not going to shoot me" and then he said all of a sudden, he
just started to bum-rushed him.
He just started coming at him full speed, and so he just started shooting
and he just kept coming. So he really thinks he was on something, because
he kept coming. It was unbelievable and then so he finally ended up. The
final shot was in the forehead and then he fell about 2, 3 feet in front of
(END AUDIO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Joining us tonight on our Rapid Response panel, Dr. Lawrence
Kobilinsky and also professor of the chairperson at John Jay College. And
also with us tonight, Mike Papantonio, host of Ring of Fire, radio show and
America`s attorney, great to have both of you gentlemen with us tonight.
Doctor you first, the number of autopsies, do you expect that there would
be a lot of difference in the findings of these three autopsies?
DR. LAWRENCE KOBILINSKY, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: I suspect that we`re not
going to learn anything different in the third autopsy. I think -- you
have to remember the first autopsy gets the best look at the body,
relatively pristine. There`s a dissection done so that the next time, the
second autopsy done by Dr. Michael Baden at the request of the family is
going to be looking at a body that`s already been dissected.
So, there`s going to be second dissection, organs are removed then put back
in place. So by the time the third autopsy is done, the body looks very
different than it did initially. But I think there`s not going to be any
significant differences in the conclusion.
SCHULTZ: That sound bite that we just played, that depiction of what
allegedly happened told through a third-person, talks about a struggle for
a firearm, would that show up in an autopsy in any way?
KOBILINSKY: It`s a good question, I think that if there was indeed a
struggle for the gun and if indeed Michael Brown touched that gun and they
were wrestling over that gun, I would expect to see a transfer of Michael
Brown`s DNA onto the weapon. So, DNA analysis using a very high sensitive,
so high-sensitivity method, we`re picked up a mixture of DNA, and if Mr.
Brown`s DNA is on that gun, it will shed a great deal of light as to the
events that led up to the shooting.
SCHULTZ: And what about the struggle for the gun and of course DNA testing
not done in an autopsy?
KOBILINSKY: That`s correct.
KOBILINSKY: The autopsy is only one piece because...
SCHULTZ: Yeah. Of the whole thing. So, speaking of pieces to the puzzle,
what do you think is missing here to -- at this point?
KOBILINSKY: Well, we know that there were six bullets that penetrated the
body. Unfortunately, only three bullets were found. What happened to the
other bullets? But more importantly, how many shots were fired? How many
rounds were fired? If you`re talking about a semi-automatic, there`s a
magazine, magazines can hold 9, 10, 12 rounds. How many shots were fired?
Where are the shell casings? How many shell casings are there?
Perhaps, the police officer fired a warning shot. We don`t know that, and
that`s only part of it. We don`t have the gunshot residue evidence because
if the gun was shot in the vehicle, I would expect to see gunshot residue
all over the passenger compartment of the vehicle, and on Michael Brown`s
clothing if the shot was closed in. Another, if you can look at the
pattern of gunshot residue around the holes in the clothing and if you see
that ash, that pattern, you would be able to conclude that the shot was
fired from under two and half, three feet.
But so far, we don`t know anything about that because Dr. Baden didn`t have
an opportunity to look at the clothing. So, it looks now like the shot was
more at a distance.
SCHULTZ: OK. Mike Papantonio, how does all these information legally fit
in? Let`s focus in on with that radio show produced as far that sound bite
is concern, how do you unpack that?
MIKE PAPANTONIO, ATTORNEY: Ed, the forensic story is hugely important to
this case, there`s no question about it, if the case ultimately makes it to
trial. That`s the big question here. But more important is the
development of eyewitnesses that support those forensics. Right now, one
of the most important steps the D.A. should be taking is to get solid
statements from as many witnesses as possible. And then start a
prosecution witness vetting process to identify the strongest trial caliber
I can tell you that`s what the other side is doing, that`s what the defense
side is doing. If you look at what this woman had to say in that radio
segment for example, you find it almost tracks exactly what the report --
what the police report says. So here, you got to -- and here`s the real
troubling problem here, you got a D.A., the Prosecutor Bob McCulloch, his
father, his mother, his brother and his uncle all worked for the police
This is the guy going forward with this case. As a matter of fact, his
father was killed responding to a call that involved a black man right
there in that community. The problem, Ed is you`re going to find very few
places in small town in America with a good old boy relationship between
the D.A. and law enforcement isn`t overwhelmingly strong. The same thing
holds true for grand juries. This grand jury, this local grand jury should
not be the people deciding this. A prosecutor can actually push a grand
jury to reach virtually any decision he wants in how he presents that
information to the grand jury. It`s time for the governor...
PAPANTONIO: ...to move this center of gravity away from Ferguson.
SCHULTZ: That was my next question. This is on the governor`s desk, is it
not? I mean when it comes to the prosecution process here, he can step in
as an executive...
SCHULTZ: ...and reassign...
SCHULTZ: the D.A. The attorney general cannot do that, he does not have
PAPANTONIO: That`s correct. It`s time for the governor -- I say move the
center of the gravity out of the town, away from the D.A., away from this
grand jury. Look, there`s so many things that are critical here. If the
forensic and eyewitness story for example develops in a way that puts
Officer Wilson within a few arm`s-lengths away from Michael Brown, then the
defense, it`s a classic defense.
The defense has an easy time painting the picture of panic, of reasonable
fear on part of the officer. The argument becomes that human error is not
the same thing as intent to commit murder. The arguments made that the
officer panicked either because of the size of Brown or because he didn`t
have experience, but the point is all of these matters in how this is
presented to a grand...
PAPANTONIO: ... jury. So you don`t let McCulloch present it to this grand
to this grand jury, absolutely not.
SCHULTZ: OK. Well, it looks like he is going to be the one presenting it
to the grand jury. What is the grand jury going to be looking at? What is
the most telling piece of evidence to get an arrest here?
PAPANTONIO: Well, I think the thing they should be looking at is the
eyewitnesses that has -- that has very credible eyewitnesses to present
this story of what happened. The forensics can mean anything, Ed. You can
take one expert, put him on the stand, 10 minutes later, put another expert
on the stand and you can turn the forensics up on their head.
SCHULTZ: OK, Dr. Kobilinsky, I want your response.
KOBILINSKY: I absolutely disagree. I think eyewitness testimony is
notoriously unreliable. The only evidence that should be trusted is the
physical evidence, analyzed by labs that know how to do it. Facts get
generated and then people reconstruct the events...
PAPANTONIO: Well, we just disagree with that...
KOBILINSKY: ... we cannot trust...
PAPANTONIO: ... I`ve tried...
KOBILINSKY: ...we cannot trust...
PAPANTONIO: ... that doesn`t work. Yes. I got to tell you something, the
eyewitnesses, if they`re properly vetted and if they -- and if they`re on
the stand and they present the case consistent with the forensic posture
that the prosecutor takes, it`s very powerful. I disagree with you totally
relying on forensic evidence alone is a huge mistake here. Do not discount
the power of a good eyewitness when it comes to turning a case around. I
totally disagree with you on that.
SCHULTZ: OK. Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky and also Mike Papantonio, great to
have you with us tonight, appreciate the discussion. Coming up, the right
wing media reacts to the events in Ferguson. Stay with us, we`ll be right
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. Law enforcement sources have
confirmed to NBC news, the federal autopsy of 18-year-old Michael Brown is
complete. According to the Justice Department, Attorney General Eric
Holder was briefed by phone on the preliminary findings. No information
has been released on those findings as of yet. A short time ago, lawyers
for the family of Michael Brown announced a funeral will take place on
Monday, August 25th. We`ll bring you any new developments as they are
Keep it right here. You`re watching THE ED SHOW. We`ll be right back.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to THE ED SHOW. The right-wing is pushing the
black-on-black crime narrative again. President Obama says the racial
tension underlying Ferguson, Missouri`s unrest cannot go ignored.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I`ve said this before. In too many communities around the country,
a gulf of mistrust exists between local residents and law enforcement. In
too many communities, too many young men of color are left behind and seen
only as objects of fear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: But in prime-time Fox News has had Henry says acknowledging is a
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED HENRY, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Look at what happened with
Cambridge, Massachusetts when he said that police acted stupidly when this
was on-going investigation. That was a mistake.
Trayvon Martin case, the nation was inflamed over that to some extent. He
jumps in and says, if I had a son he might look like Trayvon. Those two
were clearly mistakes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: And of course Fox News and Henry didn`t waste time criticizing
the Department of Justice`s investigation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HENRY: And not more than a week since Michael Brown was killed. So, sure,
the Justice Department is going to keep the pressure on and make sure that
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That all resources of the Department of Justice,
that`s what they said today.
HENRY: . and they`ve got, well over 50 FBI agents I believe the number is.
But on the other hand.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s incredible.
HENRY: It is. Look at this, look at this numbers. This week and I
checked, right here on New York City, 11 shootings, 2 dead, 19 wounded.
Chicago, 7 dead, 29 wounded. Is attorney general going in New York or
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Ed Henry, I know you`re better than that.
Joining me, media consultant Holland Cooke. Holland , is this a narrative
displaying out across the country and the conservative media that there`s
something wrong with the way Obama, the President and the Attorney General
Holder of handling this?
HOLLAND COOKE, TALK RADIO CONSULTANT: Well, no matter what happens of
course it is Obama`s fault. Remember he did not go to the border when they
were all posing down there for the photo op. Imagine if he did, they`d
accuse him of grand standing.
You`ve the voices on the right, like the old light beer commercial, you
know, they used to holler, taste great, less feeling. Some of them are
hollering Martha`s Vineyard and some of them are hollering, where is he?
So, is he doing too much or is he doing too little?
All these Fox News voices you just played of course are on-message.
They`re reciting the words of the leader. And let there be little doubt as
to why Rush Limbaugh has ratings problems. I and I`m sure everyone in the
building there at 30 Rock today are thinking fondly of the late great Don
Pardo we just lost at 96. Started broadcasting right here on Providence,
Rhode Island back when radio was a kinder, gentler medium than all of this
anger that`s so relentless day after day.
And to be fair to Rush Limbaugh, I have hand copied from the transcript,
these sound bites. I`m not making this up. In Rush`s view, what`s
happening in Ferguson is a soap opera. He says, "It`s all politics
disguised as sorrow and sadness and compassion". He might feel differently
if he were a parent.
He says, "The Democrat Party I think profits from racial strife".
Ironically, you know, who doesn`t profit from this is Rush himself, who`s
own company just took his show off its own station in Pittsburgh, they
abandoned the talk format entirely and went country last week.
COOKE: So Rush, who used to be disk jockey at A.M. in Pittsburgh is back
on A.M. in Pittsburgh. And in the meantime you`ve seen the ratings they`re
tacking (ph) on all the big markets.
SCHULTZ: Well how is the right-wing want to address race and the killing
of an unarmed 18-year-old by a police officer? They find fault with
COOKE: Of course and it`s like a fox goes out first thing in the morning
because the mantra they`re all chanting is Chicago, Chicago like nobody`s
covering Chicago. It`s all I hear about on Fox News, how can they say
nobody is covering it? They`re trying to scapegoat the President because
no matter what he does, it will be the wrong thing.
SCHULTZ: Holland Cooke, media consultant, great to have you with us
tonight here on THE ED SHOW.
Tonight will night number 11. I pray there is no violence. Message has
been received. The wheels of justice are in motion. You have to have some
level of confidence that this is moving forward. I hope you`ll pray
tonight too that there`s not going to be any violence and hopefully this
will all end soon.
That`s THE ED SHOW, I`m Ed Schultz.
"POLITICS NATION" with Revered Al Sharpton starts right now. Good evening,
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