All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, August 25th, 2014
Read the transcript from the Monday show
ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
August 25, 2014
Guest: Anthony Gray, Mia Bloom, Chris Murphy, Marq Claxton, Bernard Parks,
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will demand equal justice for Michael Brown,
HAYES: The calls for justice continue, as thousands gather to lay
Michael Brown to rest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Michael Brown`s blood is crying from the ground.
HAYES: Tonight, the latest from Ferguson.
Plus, the latest on why Darren Wilson`s last police department was
completely disbanded and what communities can do when policing gets out of
AL SHARPTON, "POLITICS NATION": The only thing that messes up good
apples is if you don`t take the rotten apples out of the bushel.
HAYES: Then, Senator Chris Murphy on the recent acquisition in the
simmering war between Russia and Ukraine.
And as the hunt for the killer of James Right Foley continues, is an
expanded attack on ISIS imminent?
JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president, thus far,
has not made a decision to order additional military action in Syria.
HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.
HAYES: Good evening from Ferguson, Missouri. I`m Chris Hayes.
And on a punishingly hot day here in the St. Louis area, thousands of
mourners flocked to the Friendly Temple Missionary Baptist Church in St.
Louis City to lay to rest Michael Brown. The unarmed black teenager shot
dead by a white police officer 16 days ago.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PASTOR CHARLES EWING, MICHAEL BROWN`S UNCLE: Yes, we call him the
gentle giant. We call him Big Mike. We call him Mike Mike.
ERIC DAVIS, MICHAEL BROWN`S COUSIN: Michael was a big guy, but he was
a kind, gentle soul.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: On a day when an article in "The New York Times" described
Brown as, "no angel," sparking major backlash, including a protest hashtag
on Twitter, those who actually knew the young man, they called Mike Mike,
described him in very different terms.
(BEGIN VIDOE CLIP)
CAL BROWN, MICHAEL BROWN`S STEPMOTHER: I met Mike Mike three years
ago, and he truly became my best friend. We spent so much time together
just talking about God. He was truly curious about what God had to offer.
He evolved into a man, a good man. And he just wanted so much. He
wanted to go to college. He wanted to have a family. He wanted to be a
But God chose differently, and I`m at peace about that because he`s
not a lost soul. His death is not in vain.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Many of the speakers addressed the deep anguish and sense of
injustice brought out by the manner of Brown`s death. Ben Crump, an
attorney for the Brown family, invoking the history of racial
discrimination going all the way back to the notorious 3/5 clause in the
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BEN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR THE BROWN FAMILY: An African-American was to
be considered 3/5 of a man, but we declare here today that we pay our final
respects to Michael Brown Jr., that he was not 3/5 of a citizen. He was an
American citizen. And we will not accept 3/5 justice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: MSNBC`s own Reverend Al Sharpton delivering an impassioned
eulogy urged the audience to turn their grief and anger into action.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: We can`t have a fit. We`ve got to have a movement. A fit,
you get mad and run out for a couple of nights. A movement means we got to
be here for the long haul, and turn out chance into change, a demonstration
in the legislation. We have got to stay on this so we can stop this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: In an emotionally raw interview yesterday, Mike Brown`s
parents sitting alongside the parents of Trayvon Martin, told MSNBC`s Craig
Melvin what it was like to see their son`s body at the funeral home for
almost the last time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN`S MOTHER: I looked at him. I talked
to him. I touched him.
MICHAEL BROWN, SR., MICHAEL BROWN`S FATHER: Not having a conversation
with my son, it really bothers me. Seeing how he feels. Just what`s going
on in the day. Seeing him in the casket today made it reality.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Brown`s parents told Craig they intend to keep their son`s
legacy alive long after today`s funeral.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCSPADDEN: I`m planning on not letting anyone forget my son or what
happened to him, because he didn`t deserve it. I`m going to make sure --
MICHAEL BROWN, SR.: He will never be forgotten. Never.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Reverend Al Sharpton, Rev, media was kept out of the sanctuary
today for good reason, obviously, while the service was observed. Can you
tell us what the mood, the atmosphere, in that room was like?
SHARPTON: I think it was electric. People were energized as well as
mourning at the same time.
That family was determined to have a dignified and a solemn occasion,
but yet, an occasion that was energized. I keep using that word. Because
it was something that was emotional, uplifting, hopeful, as much as it was
that we were putting to rest an 18-year-old child.
And I thought that the messages by the religious leaders, we had
everyone do prayers, from Bishop TD Jakes, to Reverend Freddie Haynes. All
of the leaders that were there, many of whom didn`t speak.
It was the wishes of the family that I give the eulogy and that the
cousin, Reverend Yule, gave the family eulogy, and I thought it was an
impactful testimony to a movement who sees that Michael Brown is not just a
victim, but a symbol of what needs to be addressed in this country.
HAYES: You talked about the difference between a fit and a movement.
You talked about this being a moment for a movement to take shape. We saw
with the Eric Garner rally in New York on Saturday that you were one of the
chief organizers of.
Where does this go from here? It feels like there`s something
coalescing here and as yet has taken its full shape. What do you see
SHARPTON: I think that you`re seeing different parts come together.
That`s what a movement is. There`s a difference between an organization
and a movement. From my studies of the civil rights movement in the `60s,
and I`ve been fortunate enough have been mentored by some of those who led
it like Reverend Y.T. Walker. There was Dr. King and others doing other
things and the SNCC, Student Nonviolent Committee, that didn`t necessarily
get along with Dr. King, that were doing other things.
All of these things made the civil rights movement successful, and I
think you`re seeing disconnected factions that are moving the same way,
addressing the militarization of police, addressing how the federal
government needs to have laws, setting a climate. We saw, Chris, the first
time that I can find in history, certainly in my lifetime, a sitting
attorney general come to the scene of a civil rights crisis.
We give a lot of credit to Bobby Kennedy, but Bobby Kennedy never went
to the South during the civil rights movement when he was attorney general.
He sent people. The fact that we have, the president addressing this
issue, the fact the attorney general came to the scene of a police civil
rights matter, means we`re being heard. Now, we must be determined and
disciplined to make our chance lead to change and our demonstrations into
legislation. As the families have the right to engage the criminal justice
system for justice.
HAYES: There was a portion in your speech I think will probably get a
lot of attention. It was kind of directed inwards about kind of getting
our act together. I`m speaking in your voice now about African-Americans
and acting right and there`s a long tradition of this, of course, and there
are also critics who hear this and they call it -- they use the term
respectability politics, that this is a way to kind of audition for the
outside world and that that kind of respectability politics doesn`t end up
gaining anything. What do you say to those critics who hear that portion
of the speech and feel that that takes the eyes off the ball?
SHARPTON: Because I think that they don`t know what the ball is. The
reason I tell our communities to don`t act up is they`re acting up against
us. So, it`s not about being respectable to others, it`s about respecting
So, when I said, don`t act in misogynous way, it`s not to impress
outsiders, it`s because our women should be respected. When I say don`t do
petty crimes in the street, it`s not so others won`t think ill of us, it`s
because we shouldn`t be doing it to each other.
I couldn`t care less what the critics say. I think my life has shown
that. I care a lot about what we`re doing for each other and to each
other, and that`s also why I fight so hard when others do something to us.
It would be the height of hypocrisy to say that we`re going to make sure we
address what happened to Michael Brown or Eric Garner in Staten Island, but
we`re not going to address what some of the same folks in the community are
doing ill to each other.
Either you`re against wrong or you`re not.
HAYES: Rev, there was a big -- there was a big profile of you in
"Politico" about your relationship with the White House. You spoke about
it on "Meet the Press." I got to say, in looking at some of the coverage,
there`s kind of an obsession with you as a figure in some precincts. I can
never quite figure out.
Have you -- have you figured out why, why you remain the kind of point
of obsession for some people as they watch this play out?
SHARPTON: I mean, it`s amazing to me that they always get to the
sensational point. Am I close to the president? Am I too close to those
in the streets? Am I too this or that?
Why don`t they deal with the work? Why don`t they deal with the fact
that whatever we`ve been able to do, a lot of people feel we`ve given
voice. I`m in St. Louis because the family called and asked me to come to
St. Louis. The family asked me to come to Staten Island.
Why? Because if it`s Amadou Diallo, or Abner Louima, where we got
success, no one analyzes the work and the success that we`ve been able to
penetrate with no government funding at all. The fact that I have access
to the White House, every president had civil rights leaders that had
access to them. There`s no story there other than you convinced yourself
that I would never be able to perform at that level.
That`s you misreading me. That`s not me not misreading my role and my
HAYES: Reverend Al Sharpton, thank you so much.
SHARPTON: Thank you.
HAYES: You can catch the reverend`s show weekdays at 6:00 p.m.
eastern on MSNBC.
Joining me now, Anthony Gray, attorney for the Brown family.
Mr. Gray, thanks for being here.
ANTHONY GRAY, ATTORNEY FOR BROWN FAMILY: How you doing, Chris? Thank
you for having me.
HAYES: I`ve got to say, I saw Michael Brown`s mother rocking back and
forth throughout the service and it just, it struck me that to put yourself
in her shoes and her family`s shoes for a moment, amidst all of this is
just this individual pain and grief of someone that`s lost their kid.
I spent the weekend with my kids and the whole time I was kind of
haunted by, oh my God, to negotiate the level of grief they`re going
through while the whole world is watching this insane situation play out, I
just can`t imagine what it`s like for them right now.
GRAY: Right. It`s unspeakable. I`m not sure if I got to words to
express it, but I think you`re starting with a good example. If you were
to imagine yourself with your own kids and your own family scenario, if it
got played out that Saturday afternoon the same way it did for Lesley, how
would you feel? And as you just so eloquently described, it would be very
difficult to navigate through their personal feelings while the whole world
That`s what she has to deal with. She didn`t prepare for this. I
don`t think no parent can prepare for something like this. This was thrown
on her, and she`s trying to do the best she can to cope with it.
HAYES: It`s a really interesting moment in the service when one
family member got up there, and I forget who it was. It might have been
his cousin. Who said, I`m hurting, and I`m angry, but I`m going to --
GRAY: It was Ty.
HAYES: Yes. Ty said, I`m hurting and I`m angry, but I`m in church,
and I want -- and it was just such a human moment because there`s, you
know, folks are still angry. It`s like --
GRAY: Right, right.
HAYES: -- everyone`s going to pack up their tents and walk away from
Ferguson because there`s no tear gas to cover, but the people who live here
are going to go out and get in their cars and get pulled over by the same
Ferguson police that were there two weeks ago and the family members are
still going to be in Ferguson when everyone packs up their tents.
GRAY: Sure, sure. What he was expressing is indicative of a lot of
feelings that are here. I was proud of the fact he was willing to admit
that. That he`s angry, that he`s upset.
But at the same time, we`re going to honor Mike Brown Jr. at this
moment during this memorial service. I just thought it was an absolutely
excellent dichotomy of emotions that he played out on stage, and, you know,
I don`t know how to put it in words what is going on right now and what`s
going to happen in the future. It`s just so hard to predict what`s going
to become of this. All I can do is just remain hopeful, Chris. Remain
HAYES: What is your role -- what is your role as an attorney for a
family that has lost a son, that has a process that`s now playing out in
legal channels through the county prosecutor who is investigating the case,
has said he won`t recuse himself. The governor won`t take him off. What
are the family`s attorney`s role in this now?
GRAY: Right now, you know, we`re attorneys and we`re counselors at
law. And so, to some degree, I consul them with respect to how the process
is supposed to operate. And not everybody can understand and take in the
real slow churning wheels of the justice system. So, a part of my role is
to give that explanation and let them kind of see how things are from a
HAYES: County prosecutor Bob McCulloch, as I referenced before,
started presenting evidence to a grand jury. He had his line where he
talked about losing his own father who was a police officer in the line of
fire and saying it made him a victim. You`re an advocate for victims. Has
he contacted the family, Bob McCulloch?
GRAY: He has not.
HAYES: He hasn`t contacted the family at all.
GRAY: Yes, not that I`m aware of and I serve on the official channel
of communications for the family. To my knowledge, and I`ll qualify that
to say, to my knowledge, he`s not reached out to the family.
HAYES: All right. Mr. Gray, attorney for the Brown family -- thank
you very much. We appreciate it.
GRAY: All right.
HAYES: All right. How is it possible that a terror group that
commits such horrible acts of atrocity is able to recruit so many people
from the West? That`s ahead.
HAYES: So, what should happen when police step over the line while in
the line of duty? I`ll talk about that with some former police officers.
HAYES: The violent Islamic militant group ISIS, also known as ISIL,
or the Islamic State, expanded its territory, by seizing an air base in
northern Syria from forces loyal to Syrian President Bashar al Assad. This
amateur video uploaded to social media purports to show that attack and its
aftermath, though it can not be independently verified by NBC News.
Meanwhile, a new and disturbing ISIS propaganda video has emerged. We
do not know when these images were taken, but the video shows militants
using a drone and committing several atrocities in Syria.
But the United States now widely believed to be considering targeting
ISIS militants inside the Syrian border. The Syrian foreign minister today
warned the U.S. against such airstrikes without the consent of the Syrian
government. He added that the Syrian government is, quote, "ready to
cooperate and coordinate in fighting terrorists."
That raises the rather astounding prospect the United States
essentially implicitly partnering with the government of Bashar al Assad,
who has been implicated in war crimes and a chemical weapons attack in
connection with Syria`s three-year-old civil war.
As the U.S. confrontation with ISIS escalates in Syria, there`s also
importantly grim news out of Libya which is, of course, the site of a 2011
international military intervention featuring aerial bombardment, one
hailed at the time as successful because it ultimately bought about the
death of Moammar Gadhafi. Islamist allied militias on Sunday claimed
control of the Libyan capital Tripoli, including its international airport.
American officials said today that Egypt and the United Arab Emirates
have secretly been launching air strikes against those militants without
the consent of Washington. There are some rare good news out of the region
on Sunday. Officials announced that American writer Peter Curtis was freed
by a different group in Syria, not ISIS, after being held by two years by
al Qaeda affiliated jihadists, al Nusra.
The news follows the release of a horrific video showing the beheading
of American journalist James Foley, by ISIS militants.
British intelligence officials tell NBC News they have identified the
man they believe murdered Foley who speaks with a British accent in the
The White House today warned of the threat posed by ISIS militants
with ties to the West.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
EARNEST: The other concern that we have and in some ways this is the
most significant concern, is that there are individuals with Western
passports who have taken up arms alongside ISIL in this fight. And the
United States and other Western countries harbors a significant concern
about those individuals returning to the west to carry out terrorist
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: There are an estimated 2,000 Western recruits to ISIS and
similar extremist groups, and according to British officials, that number
includes at least 70 U.S. citizens and more than 500 from the U.K., many of
whom could return home.
This weekend, NBC News` Keir Simmons spoke with British citizens in
London who openly support ISIS` mission.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are a lot of people who would feel the
Islamic State does have a duty to protect themselves and defend against
KEIR SIMMONS, NBC NEWS: Killing a journalist isn`t protecting
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The vital question you need to ask is, who is
really to blame for the death of James Foley? I believe it`s the foreign
policy of Obama --
SIMMONS: It`s the man who put that knife if his neck, surely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, the thing you`ve got to ask is, why was this
particular man chosen? It seems like he was chosen because he was an
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, Mia Bloom, professor of security studies at
University of Massachusetts-Lowell. Author of "Bombshell: Women and
Professor Bloom, we all see the videos from is and I think unanimously
across the political spectrum, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, across all
regions of the world, people just gasp in horror at the sheer brutality,
and yet at the same time, they have been massively successful in
recruiting. How has ISIS been so successful in recruiting?
MIA BLOOM, PROF. OF SECURITY STUDIES, UMASS-LOWELL: ISIS has two
kinds of videos. The videos you`re talking about are meant to instill a
sense of fear and intimidation against their enemies, whether these are
enemies in Iraq, or enemies in Syria, or the United States.
But the other videos that they use are actually quite alluring. They
present this idealized version of the caliphate where kids are playing,
they use soft lighting, so that they have two different ways of using the
propaganda. One is a positive one, which is what is resonating with
Muslims around the world.
HAYES: What does the social science tell us about the process of
recruitment into a militant extremist group? Not just jihadists, but other
militant extremist groups. What do we know about who are the kinds of
folks that end up doing something that seems from the outside as insane as
dropping your life in East London to go carry a Kalashnikov in Syria for
BLOOM: Well, when you look at the kinds of recruitment across the
spectrum, whether it`s for extreme right wing Aryan Nation, whether it`s
the jihadi groups, what they tend to do is tend to try to present a picture
of what that person is going to really be. It`s a fantasy vision, and so
they`re selling this new improved version of yourself. These are people
who want to belong to something bigger than themselves, and they want --
they think that they have a calling of some sorts, and I think that that`s
what you`re seeing. You`re seeing people who think that being involved is
one thing, but the reality is very different.
And that`s what we`ve learned from studying terrorism, talking to
former terrorists, seeing that the discrepancy between what they thought
being involved would be like, and what actual involvement was like was so
different that sometimes that`s when they leave and they give up.
HAYES: So, what are the countermeasures available in interrupting
that process? Because obviously it`s very worrying to people that anyone
would join a group that`s committing the kinds of things is ISIS, but it`s
also worrying for a security perspective as Josh Earnest said and others
about folks who have passports in the U.K. or U.S.
What do we know about what are effective ways of combating that?
BLOOM: Well, there`s one caveat I want to add is the fact the FBI
just came out with a statement saying that ISIS does not pose a real threat
to the United States. And if that is the case, then I don`t want us to
overblow the threat. I think the reason we`re paying attention is because
of the fact that James Foley was massacred in front of a video camera.
But the reality is that most of the people who are going to be going
to Syria or to Iraq, if they come back, they will be followed. They will
be tracked. What we can do, some of the things we can do is actually
within the community, the community-led projects that are educating people.
What ISIS and these groups do is they bastardize verses from the Koran,
they take them out of context and it`s really the fact that people don`t
have the ballasts to be able to fend off this version of Islam which is not
So, I think teaching people the reality of Islam and what the Koran
actually says would be one way to fight their ability to recruit.
HAYES: My favorite detail from the week was the two jihadi recruits
in the U.K. who purchased "Islam for Dummies" apparently en route to join
up to jihad.
Mia Bloom from the University of Massachusetts -- thank you.
BLOOM: Thank you so much for having me.
HAYES: Lots of news to report tonight from Ukraine, where Ukrainian
military says Russian tanks have been crossing the border carrying weapons
to pro-Russian separatists, the latest on that terrifyingly tight
HAYES: Northern California is recovering tonight from a powerful
earthquake that hit early yesterday morning. The 6.1 magnitude quake
struck around 3:20 A.M. Sunday with an epicenter just 6 miles from Napa.
The most powerful earthquake to hit the bay area in 25 years. It was
followed by dozens of aftershocks.
California Governor Jerry Brown declared a state of emergency for the
region. And, the city of Napa is working to restore services and assess
the damage. According to the city, more than 200 people were treated at a
local hospital and there are 90 waterline breaks. Among the injured, a 13-
year-old boy, who was seriously hurt when a chimney collapsed on to him.
He was listed in serious but stable condition today.
More than 30 buildings have been deemed uninhabitable because of the
damage to the quake. The cost of the damage is expected to reach as high
as $4 billion. Now, an early warning system that is still being tested at
a U.C. Berkeley Lab did work on Sunday morning giving a 10-second warning
before the earthquake struck.
That combined with the resilience of the area engineering is a
reminder of just how much the damage of what we call a natural disaster
depends on what technology and preparation and institutions are in place
when it strikes. We will be right back.
HAYES: Though much of the world`s attention is now focused on the
Middle East, there is the little issue of the land war, bloody land war
that continues to roil in Europe and threatens further destabilization and
possible chaos. Ukraine`s political turmoil intensified today. As
Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko announced the dissolution of the
country`s parliament called for early elections to be held at the end of
Poroshenko said he was operating under the Ukrainian constitution
since lawmakers failed to form a new majority within 30 days after the
ruling coalition collapsed in a heap in July. Lawmakers will continue
working until a new parliament is elected. As for how voting should take
place should areas of Ukraine remain under rebel control, well, that
remains to be seen.
That news comes on the same day as Russia`s announcement it will send
a second convoy, carrying what it calls humanitarian aid to Ukraine.
Shortly after a convoy, which some referred to as a Trojan horse crossed
the border into Ukraine without Kiev`s permission, drawing condemnation
from Nato, European Union and the U.S.
Amid reported from the "Associated Press" that convoys coming from the
direction of Russia have been consistently spotted crossing into Ukraine
carrying military weapons and heading toward pro-Moscow separatists. State
Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki said that basic details of the first
convoy remain unclear. Two days after, it was to have return to Russia and
that another unauthorized convoy would only aggravate an already tense
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNIFER RENE "JEN" PSAKI, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: Russia
continues to fuel the conflict with weapons, training personnel, and
material. It is also not clear that all the trucks and drivers departed.
While we are certainly concerned about Russian plans for a second aid
convoy, any new mission done without the explicit permission of Ukraine
would not be another provocative measure that would only escalate a
situation President Putin claims he wants to resolve.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: A divide between parts of the country still governed by Kiev,
and those controlled by Russian affiliated separatists was starkly
illustrated on Sunday, Ukraine`s Independence Day. Kiev, the capital, put
forward a display of national pride and military power while Russian
separatists held their own parade, marching Ukrainian prisoners through
Donetsk to a cheering crowd.
Joining me now, Democratic Senator Chris Murphy from Connecticut, a
member of the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee. Senator, I got to say, we
got an ongoing war in Gaza. There is the horrible situation in Iraq, in
Syria. We have been covering Ferguson here. And, every time I go to the
newspaper or check in on the situation in Ukraine and Russia, I think to
myself, "This might be the worst powder keg in the entire world right now
and it just seems to get worse." How do you feel about it?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY, (D) CONNECTICUT REPRESENTATIVE: Well, you know, it
certainly has been pushed off the front pages, but I do not know that we
should elevate the situation in Ukraine above what is happening in the
Middle East right now. It is tempting to that because we like looking at
old paradigms and trying to apply them to new problems, and of course, we
understand the cold war, so when Russia acts, we have this instinct to act
with equal force back; but, this is not the cold war any longer.
It does not matter to us as much as it did 30 years ago what Russia
does. And, well, we have got a dangerous precedent being set here that a
country is infringing upon the borders of its neighbor. What Putin is
doing here is continuing to show his weakness, not his strength, because as
he loses ground, he panics and puts new pieces on to the board.
He was losing the military battle in big ways in eastern Ukraine. He
decided to move towards a settlement conversation. And, to strengthen his
hand in that conversation, he starts to move convoys in. So, I think we
are right to be focusing more energy right now on ISIS and we are right to
not get dragged into a situation where everything Russia does has to be met
with an equal counterweight by the United States.
HAYES: So, here is the question, Senator. Then is essentially the
status quo, which is you have the Ukrainian Government that is having a
hard time essentially keeping a government in power, but has had an
aggressive military push into the separatist regions, Russia convoy that
essentially this status quo is essentially a tolerable equilibrium for now?
SEN. MURPHY: Well, I do not think it is tolerable, but I think that
we need to take steps that actually can effectuate a change and that would
be to continue to stand up the government in Kiev. This is a very
troubling time, both politically and economically there.
And, to the extent that the people of Eastern Ukraine have to make a
choice between supporting the separatists and supporting the government in
Kiev, they need to see that there is a new economic pathway for their
country coming out of their capital.
And, Europe and the United States can support that. But, of course,
this is Russia`s playbook. We have these frozen conflicts in Georgia, in
Moldova, and now they are trying to create another one in Eastern Ukraine.
So, this is not the only part of that region in which is happening. That
is not to excuse it, but it is not a new tactic by the Russians.
HAYES: Right, but then the question is, geo-strategically, can that
be abided? Essentially, is that the best of bad options when other people
are calling for ratcheting up the pressure or more focus on sending arms to
Ukraine, that essentially a frozen conflict like the ones we see in other
parts of that area of the world is essentially the best of bad options?
SEN. MURPHY: So, the question is what are your options and what are
you prepared to do? It does not matter enough to us to put heavy military
weight behind the Ukrainians beyond the assistance we are giving. It does
matter enough to continue to ratchet up sanctions on the Russians.
There is this debate being played out within the Kremlin that
ultimately the oligarchs may win, those that are actually being hurt by
these sanctions. But, more broadly, we are sending a message outside
Russia, countries like China that might be thinking of trying to settle
their territorial disputes outside of diplomatic channels.
It may be that ratcheting up sanction might not change Putin`s
behavior, but it stops this from becoming the norm in other parts of the
world. We just have to decide what we are prepared to do, and I do not
think major military intervention is now in the cards.
HAYES: Senator Chris Murphy, thank you.
SEN. MURPHY: Thanks.
HAYES: Michael Brown and Eric Garner are two names that will forever
be linked with police behavior, and these two cases, police behavior that
led to their deaths. I am going to talk to some former police officers
about policing and, importantly, about accountability and police officers
policing each other. That is ahead.
HAYES: The story of a police department that was so corrupt, it was
shut down. Everyone was fired and the whole thing was shuttered. Ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REV. AL SHARPTON, HOST OF "POLITICS NATION": Let us be real clear.
The only thing if you have a bushel of apples, the only thing that messes
up good apples is if you do not take the rotten apples out the bushel. We
are not the ones making the cops look bad. It is the bad apples that you
will not take out the bushel.
(END OF VIDEO)
HAYES: The funeral today for Mike Brown, an unarmed teenager shot and
killed by Ferguson, Missouri, police officer, Darren Wilson, comes two days
after a rally in Staten Island, New York for Eric Garner, a father of six
who was killed after being placed in a choke hold by a New York City police
officer last month.
This movement that is now coalescing, this call for justice, is no
longer about a particular set of circumstances in Missouri or New York. It
is about acknowledging, confronting overzealous policing and finding
systemic ways to bring accountability for it. Now, any reporter who has
interviewed police or spent time reporting police departments knows there
is many, many cops doing very good work under difficult circumstances.
But, even in my brief time here in Ferguson, Missouri, there have been
examples of policing that have clearly, clearly egregiously crossed the
line, like when police began launching tear gas at a news crew armed with a
camera, microphone and lights. One officer allegedly pointed a gun at a
photographer and said this --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get down. Get the (EXPLICIT WORD) out of
here and get that light off! Or you are getting shot with this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Or when an officer was caught on camera pointing a
semiautomatic assault rifle at an unarmed protester and threatening to kill
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE PROTESTER: My hands are up, bro. My hands are up.
LT. RAY ALBERS, ST. ANN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Hands up. Hands up.
(EXPLICIT WORD) Hands up. I will (EXPLICIT WORD) kill you. Get back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That officer identified as Lieutenant Ray Albers of the St.
Ann Police Department was relieved of duty and suspended, but it makes me
think that if it was not for the national press scrutiny surrounding the
shooting death of Michael Brown, the actions of some police officers here
in St. Louis area may never have been exposed.
In fact, odds are Lieutenant Albers would be doing traffic stops in
St. Anne as I speak, saying God knows what to those he pulled over. What
if there was not the press scrutiny, what if so many troubling incidents
were not ought on camera? Incidents like a woman in Los Angeles was
repeatedly punched in the face by a member of the California Highway
Patrol. What then?
The culture of police departments values loyalty and solidarity.
Police have to look after their own because they so often have to back each
other up in dangerous and uncertain circumstances. But, that same trait
that can be a virtue in the line of fire can be vicious in other
circumstances. The question is when an officer acts in a way that should
forfeit his fellow officer`s protection, what remedy is there when his
colleagues continue to close ranks?
Joining me now, former NYPD Detective Marq Claxton. He is a director
of the Black Law Enforcement Alliance, and former chief of the LAPD,
Bernard Parks. Now, a democratic council member for the city of Los
Angeles. Now, gentleman, there is one example of one way of dealing with
accountability, and this comes in "Washington Post" reporting on the
Jennings` Police Department.
Jennings Municipality right here, the department Darren Wilson first
enrolled in as an officer. "The small city of Jennings, Missouri, had a
police officer so troubled with so much tension between white officers and
black residents. The city council finally decided to disband it. One of
the officers who worked in the department lost his job along with everyone
else was a young man named Darren Wilson." Mr. Claxton, that hardly seem
like a scaleable solution, but it makes you wonder how many other
departments that are out there that are that rotten to the core.
MARQ CLAXTON, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: And, for many people, that is
what is happening in Ferguson, is so poignant and relevant to in people
across the nation and it tends to have us question how many other
departments operate in the same or similar fashion and have been operating
in darkness over all these years?
And, at times of tragedy, or incidents such as this, will then be
exposed. And, thank God for certain aspects of it being exposed because it
gives us opportunity to talk about it on a national level.
HAYES: Councilman Parks, let me ask you a question about LAPD
training. You were riding out with your partner and someone is jay walking
and your partner, maybe a new partner, maybe someone you have had for a
while, says to the young man who is jay walking, "Get the "F" off the
street," or in a traffic stop says something demeaning and derogatory to
someone. Is that officer the partner trained to say, hey, I did not like
that tone you took or to file some report or to have some kind of
confrontation, or is that just kind of a shrug and you go on?
BERNARD PARKS, FORMER LAPD CHIEF: Well, I think it is handled in a
variety of ways. Hopefully, there are not a lot of shrugs and go on. But,
in LAPD for decades, it has been a standard operating procedure that if an
officer is aware of misconduct, they are obligated to report it.
Now, the key is the balance, it is also that the public also should
have some obligation to report it and the more that you bring it to the
attention of the police department, the media also has a role, if they
become aware of it, that is how you ensure there is transparency. It is
not a transparent department when the public does not report it or the
police department chooses not to investigate it and it does not go any
HAYES: Councilman, what is the bar for misconduct? I mean, what am I
told as an LAPD officer is something that should trigger me, filing one of
PARKS: The issue is very simple. If you become aware of anything
that you believe is misconduct, you are obligated to report it. That could
mean from verbal abuse, to physical abuse, to failure to take reports, to a
variety of things in which are may be available.
When I became chief, we changed the system to where no longer did you
give the supervisor the ability to determine whether misconduct occurred.
We changed it to say if a complaint is made, you shall take it and it shall
be investigated. It eliminated that in between discretion where we found
so many complaints were not being dealt with properly.
HAYES: Mr. Claxton, you know, I have covered institutional corruption
in other settings, in Enron, in Wall Street, major league baseball and the
steroids era, in the Catholic Church during the child rape scandal. And,
in all those cases we should say the Police Departments are not alone in
protecting their own, first of all.
HAYES: But, what I have discovered is that there is a big difference
between what official policy might be and how the culture operates. So, if
Councilman Parks says, "Well, it is official policy, you are trained to if
you see misconduct, file a report." That does not necessarily mean that is
what the culture of the place will tolerate when you have to go back to the
locker room at the end of your shift.
CLAXTON: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. As a matter of fact, the same
policy exists in the NYPD as far as mandatory reporting of corruption.
However, just the mandatory reporting of corruption does not necessarily
result in a positive result. I mean, people have to have confidence that
not only will they report these incidents.
The police officers have to have confidence not only will they report
these incidents, but they will be taken seriously and there will be steps
taken to ensure that corruption and oftentimes we call it criminality,
corruption; but, I will play along, that corruption is dealt with, you
People lose confidence in the system. The public has lost confidence
in the mandatory reporting system of corruption. And, the police officers
have lost confidence in the mandatory reporting of corruption. And, until
people have that confidence restored, there will always be the problems of
reporting integrity issues, corruption issues, criminality issues and
expecting a positive result.
HAYES: Former NYPD Detective, Marq Claxton, former LAPD Chief,
Bernard Parks, thank you, gentlemen, both.
PARKS: Thank you.
CLAXTON: Thank you, Chris.
HAYES: So, could police officer body cameras help fix misconduct? I
will ask another former police officer, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Get on the ground. (EXPLICIT WORD). Get
down. Get the (EXPLICIT WORD) down. Put your hand behind your back. Put
your hand behind your back! Put your hand behind your back or you are
going to regret it right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: I am trying.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE OFFICER: Put your hand behind your back. Hand
behind your back! Good boy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That was video from the Rialto Police Department outside Los
Angeles in February of 2012. Officers were outfitted with uniform cameras
in the year after the cameras were introduced. According to a study out of
Cambridge University, get this, officers used force 59 percent less often
and complaints files against officers dropped by 88 percent compared with
the previous 12 months.
Joining me now, former police officer, Peter Moskos. He is an
associated professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice and author of
the book "Cop In The Hood." Peter, this idea is gaining a lot of
attraction to the New York City Public advocators recommended. What to you
think of the idea of body cams for police officers?
PETER MOSKOS, FORMER POLICE OFFICER: You know, I think in the long
run they are inevitable and they are coming. There is going to be initial
opposition from police officers, but by in large when police officers have
them, they end up liking them. That stat you just showed, 88 percent fewer
complaints is part of the reason why.
But, look, in the modern age, everything is being filmed. So, it is
incredibly useful to have a camera from the police officer`s perspective,
that does not just show the last 15 seconds of some scuffle, but shows
everything that leads up to it.
HAYES: Right. I remember actually covering a big fight in the
Illinois State legislature with a young state Senator, Barack Obama, over
video recording homicide interrogations. And, one of the arguments being
made by folks -- this was a protection essentially for law enforcement as
much it was for suspects because if someone said their interrogation was,
you know, brought about in an illicit means, they can point to the camera.
And, you think there`d be something like that to this body camera idea as
MOSKOS: Absolutely. Look, a lot of the reasons there are not more
cameras is simply money. It all comes down to that. So, you have money
issues. You have a culture of paranoia in the rank and file over the
police organization. You know, the duty to report misconduct is such a
vague and typically asinine rule of a police department, because what does
that mean; if an officer cusses someone out, if an officer uses discretion?
It is so much easier to be said than done. So, it is not so much that
there is this blue wall of silence, but no police officer lives in a glass
house. All police officers violate regulations. And, I am not talking
about corruption or brutality. But, the system has to be fair to the
police officers as well.
HAYES: That point about discretion I think is a really important one.
One of the biggest takeaways from your excellent book is that -- is the
amount of discretion and authority a police officer has just -- even the
lowliest beat cop in how they conduct themselves. And, I thought that
having body cams might actually be a great way for people to get a better
sense of what work and does not work in policing even when we are not
talking about violent altercations.
MOSKOS: Yes. One thing I fear about cameras is I think they are
going to limit discretion. I mean you are going to see cops -- which is
not always necessarily good -- always do things by the book when sometimes
that is not the right answer. You do not want cops to arrest every one,
they commit a crime.
Sometimes, they need a talking to a warning. Sometimes, they even
need a cussing out, not bad often, but sometimes you need that but that is
against departmental regulation. That is going to go down if there is a
camera. But, the good that is going to come out of having this openness is
far going to outweigh the bad.
HAYES: Peter Moskos of John Jay College, thanks so much for your
MOSKOS: Thanks for having me.
HAYES: All right. Well, we are in Ferguson tonight. And, it is a
quiet night here and there are no militarized SWAT vehicles behind me.
There are no protesters out, largely respecting the wishes of the Brown
family. And, the national media has packed up their lights and they have
gone home. And, I am going to go home tomorrow, all things going well with
But, I want you to know, we are not going to give up this story and we
are not going to stop following it and talking about the moment we have
right now in criminal justice and policing in this country, just because
there is no tear gas or there is nothing to chase in the streets. The
story is still there and we are going to keep reporting it night and night
out. I pledge that to you. "The Rachel Maddow" show starts right now.
Good evening, Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Amazing work you
have done down there in Ferguson, man. Well done. Welcome home tomorrow.
HAYES: Thank you.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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