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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, September 2nd, 2014

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September 2, 2014

Guest: Marie Harf, Hussein Ibish, William Taylor, Matt Pearce, Jessica
Valenti, Susan Crawford, Dan Ackerman


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.

first and foremost are with Mr. Sotloff and Mr. Sotloff`s family.

HAYES: Another American apparently executed by ISIS as the group
promises more beheadings. Tonight, the latest on the ISIS offensive and
the growing Muslim backlash.

Then, the mystery behind the fund-raiser for the police officer who
killed Michael Brown.

Plus, a down on his luck ex-congressman makes good on his concession
speech promise.

continuing to fight with all of you for the things we believe in.

HAYES: We`ll tell you about Eric Cantor`s new job.

And here come the victim blamers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t put naked pictures of yourself on the
Internet, people. So dumb.

HAYES: Tonight, the investigation into the nude celebrity photos
leaked over the weekend and why your photos could be next.

ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

A horrific video posted online today by the Islamic militant group
ISIS claims to show the beheading of an American journalist, Steven
Sotloff, by an ISIS militant. U.S. government has not authenticated the
video which comes two weeks after the release of an ISIS video depicting
the beheading of another American journalist, James Foley.

In that video, ISIS said that Sotloff, 31-year-old Florida native who
was kidnapped in Syria last year, while reporting on the Syrian civil war,
and whose insightful dispatches for "Foreign Policy", "Time" and other news
outlets brought the chaotic aftermath of the Arab spring into vivid focus,
they threatened that he would be the next hostage killed.

In a statement today, the Sotloff family says, quote, "The family
knows of this horrific tragedy and is grieving privately."

Just six days ago, Sotloff`s mother, Shirley Sotloff, issued her own
video, appealing to the ISIS leadership for mercy for her son.

Now, the State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki said that if the new
ISIS video is genuine, quote, "We are sickened by this brutal act."

White House spokesperson Josh Earnest said the government will work
carefully to determine the video`s authenticity.


EARNEST: This is something that the administration has obviously been
watching very carefully since this threat against Mr. Sotloff`s life was
originally made a few weeks ago. Our thoughts and prayers, first and
foremost, are with Mr. Sotloff and Mr. Sotloff`s family and those who
worked with him.


HAYES: In the video released today, a man who appears to be Sotloff
speaking directly to the camera reads a statement, seemingly crafted by
ISIS criticizing President Obama over U.S. foreign policy.

The militant then speaks directly to the camera saying President Obama
is to blame for Sotloff`s death because of this decision to continue
airstrikes on ISIS in Iraq. The militant speaks with a British accent,
similar to the accent heard in the James Foley video, as you can hear in
this very short snippet from the new video.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m back, Obama. And I`m back because of --


HAYES: We don`t know when the new video was made. Though Sotloff`s
appearance and certain statements by the ISIS militants in the video would
seem to indicate it was made after the video depicting the murder of James

Joining me now, Marie Harf, deputy spokesperson for the State

Marie, what is the procedure and timeline for authenticating a video
such as this?

intelligence community takes their time to make sure they can authenticate
the video. As you know when we went this with James Foley, there`s a
number of things they look at in the video to make sure it is indeed
authentic. That`s what they`re doing right now.

We want to be able to give an answer to that as soon as possible. You
remember with James Foley, it took about 24 hours. So, obviously, they`re
working as quickly as they can.

And if what we fear turns out to be true, Chris, this is obviously an
incredibly sad day for the Sotloff family and for his friends, and our
thoughts are certainly with them tonight.

HAYES: Does the American government know how many Americans are
currently being held by ISIS?

HARF: There are a small number of other Americans currently being
held by ISIS in Syria. We don`t give the exact number out of concern for
their safety. But we are putting every diplomatic, law enforcement,
military and intelligence tool behind finding them and hopefully bringing
them home.

We also will be looking at the video from today, the intelligence
committee will, to find any piece of information they can use to identify
the man in the video, the ISIS member, and eventually so we can hold them
accountable for what they may have done.

HAYES: Does the State -- how does the State Department interpret
these videos? It seems to me there are two ways to see them. One as a
kind of provocation to bait America into more attacks on ISIS or being
sucked into an even bloodier, more protracted engagement in Iraq.

The other is as warning, which is the kind of surface text of these
missives. We are killing these people because of you, because you have
done airstrikes. How does the State Department, how does the White House
understand these videos?

HARF: Well, first, there`s absolutely no justification for what ISIS
has done to James Foley, possibly to Steven Sotloff and also to thousands,
hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Syrians that they have brutally
terrorized as well.

This is clearly part of ISIS` propaganda campaign, showing their
barbaric acts to the world, which make clear to everyone, most importantly
people in the Arab world, that ISIS doesn`t represent Islam, does not speak
to Muslims. It shows to everyone how brutal they are, which is why we`re
focused on putting a coalition together and continuing to take the fight to

HAYES: Where do you see support for that coalition coming? There`s
been a lot of talk out of White House and State Department of assembling a
coalition. Who are the parties in question?

HARF: Well, first and foremost, our European allies. The president
and the secretary will be consulting very closely with this week at NATO,
at the NATO conference in Wales, to talk about how they can help in the
fight, but also our allies in the region. The secretary will be traveling
onward from the NATO summit talking to partners in the region. People like
the Saudis, the Turks, the Qataris, the UAE, other partners as well, who
can bring any tool they can to bear to fight this very, very serious

HAYES: Is the U.S. confident that those other regional powers are
doing all they can to make sure money is not flowing into ISIS` coffers?

HARF: Well, that`s certainly one of the main issues we focus on,
particularly with our partners in the gulf where there are private citizens
who have supported ISIS. So, we worked with Gulf partners to crack down on
this. They know this is a shared threat.

Believe me, the Saudis and others have been forceful in condemning
ISIS` actions. So, that`s going to be a main conversation going forward,
Chris. Absolutely.

HAYES: Marie Harf, thank you very much.

Joining me now, NBC News foreign correspondent Ayman Mohyeldin.

Obviously, this is barbaric and monstrous, and they`re reveling in
that? What is the strategy here?


HAYES: For either.

MOHYELDIN: For ISIS, I think it`s to try to deter America from taking
further action inside Syria.

HAYES: So, you think it`s a first order Occam`s Razor, they`re doing
this for the reason they say which is they are -- they don`t -- the U.S.
bombing campaign is hurting them. They want it to stop.

MOHYELDIN: Yes, I think you have to kind of step back a little bit to
see what ISIS is about. ISIS right now is about territory. They`re trying
to take territory. They are in an ideological war with so much of the

But they are not attacking Turkey which is a Muslim country, decadent
Western lifestyle. Something they could have a fundamental difference

But what they`re trying to do is take territory, solidify it, make
that their control, their base of operation to launch future attacks
against the world. Maybe even to try to expand their conquest part of
their ideology.

So, you got to understand that first step to be able then to see why
it is they`re trying to deter the U.S. from taking these actions to slow
down their advance.

HAYES: At the end of the video today, there was a British citizen who
we are not naming who is being threatened now with murder.

You spent a lot of time in London. How is this playing in England?

MOHYELDIN: Well, it depends on the community, and, you know, one of
the most disturbing things I`ve seen in recent weeks is that there is a
population of the Muslim community in the U.K. that actually supports ISIS.
They are not the majority. They are a very small minority, but they are a
vocal minority.

And I think it raises questions about how that community in Europe, in
general, deals with what ISIS stands for and what it represents, how much
tolerance we have for free speech in Western societies.


MOHYELDIN: There are a lot of fundamental big-picture questions if
you will. But at the same time, it poses a major challenge for Western
security agencies, who now not only have to deal with the threat of
Westerners going to fight in ISIS-controlled territories in Syria and Iraq,
but what happens when they decide to come back, what happens when they
decide to become human weapons if you will, and come back to the Western
countries, the U.S., and U.K. and others to carry out attacks?

HAYES: You`ve reported in the Middle East for years, in war zones,
and I just want to take a moment to sort of acknowledge and praise the work
of Steven Sotloff, who I don`t want to just be this name who met this
grisly end. This is someone who took on tremendous risks to report from
the most brutal war zones for essentially very little money. This is a

There are still people taking incredible risks to tell these stories.

MOHYELDIN: Nothing stings more as a journalist who works for a big
corporation than to see what happened to freelancers, on a personal level.
Some of my best friends are freelance journalists. They take this drive to
understand the Middle East, some of these complex problems very seriously,
very personally.

What`s even more troubling, Chris, is the fact sometimes their
recording isn`t showcased. We may never have known Steven Sotloff`s name
except the fact that he had become a hostage and that`s very upsetting.

HAYES: And it speaks I think, even a higher testament people take
these risks to tell the stories, that often there`s not much even appetite
or demand for it in the U.S. I mean, he was reporting on Yemen when Yemen
was off the front pages, and Syria has been off the front pages for years,
and these are people who go to those places.

MOHYELDIN: That`s what`s so sad about this. There`s a drive in
United States among journalists, freelance journalists -- I meet dozens of
freelance journalists. Everywhere I go, people who want to try to
understand and explain back here to the U.S., when I come back to the U.S.
and see this sense of apathy and sometimes a lack of willing to understand
what`s happening in the Middle East, I always kind of -- I`m struck by this
notion that Americans may be the most informed people. They have
information on their fingertips with phones, but they`re the least
knowledgeable sometimes. They don`t want to access that information. They
don`t want to invest in understanding their government`s foreign policy or
what these reporters are trying to understand and that`s very disturbing.

HAYES: Some of the most amazing reporting that Steven Sotloff
produced was the wake of the Libyan bombing campaign against Gadhafi and
the chaos there. This comes as news that basically the American -- the
former American embassy in Tripoli has been turned into, for lack of a
better word, a jihadi pool party, which has been taken over by a militia.
And also I think is an important thing for everyone to remember as they
think about intervention or escalation against ISIS.

Ayman Mohyeldin, it`s such a pleasure to have you in the flesh.

MOHYELDIN: Thank you, Chris. Always a pleasure to be here.

HAYES: All right. The U.S. military launched additional airstrikes
against is in Iraq over the weekend, this before the video came out. And
on Monday bringing the total number of strikes against the group to 124.
It also launched strikes last night against the al Qaeda-linked Somali
militant group al Shabaab which claimed credit to their horrific assault on
an upscale mall in Kenya last year and many other violent attacks.

Officials told NBC News, the hell fire missile attacks on an
encampment and vehicle in a remote area of southern Somalia killed three
suspected al Shabaab militants.

Sources said Ahmed Godane, the top leader of al Shabaab, was the
target. Rear Admiral John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said today
officials were assessing whether Godane was among those killed in the


about whether he was, in fact, killed or not -- I mean, he is the
recognized appointed leader of the al Shabaab network in Somalia. So, if
he was killed, this is a very significant blow to their network, to their
organization, and we believe to their ability to continue to conduct
terrorist attacks.


HAYES: It`s important to remember during these times when we see
these images from ISIS and stories coming out of the Middle East that most
people in the Muslim world view ISIS, al Shabaab and other militant
Islamist groups much the way that -- well, people outside of the Middle
East view them, with utter horror or fear or contempt.

A poll from the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion found that 85
percent of Palestinians oppose ISIS, also known as ISIL, while 13 percent
support it. And keep in mind, this is a population that was in the midst
of a war when that poll was taken.

As Amnesty International wrote today, ISIS is responsible for ethnic
cleansing on a historic scale and vast majority of people in the Middle
East respond to the horrifying mayhem caused by the group with animus and

That sentiment extends to Muslims around the world. On Sunday,
leading British Muslims issued a fatwa condemning ISIS. The U.S.-based
Council on American Islamic Relations describes ISIS as both un-Islamic and
morally repugnant and said it rejects the false claim it any way represents
mainstream Islamic thought.

Joining me, Hussein Ibish, senior fellow at the American Task Force on

And, Hussein, I wanted to have you on because you wrote a piece
basically making the case, you have been arguing strenuously for a long
time, I would say, from a kind of secular left Middle Eastern perspective
for some kind of U.S. military intervention against ISIS.

to be a large international coalition. Yes. And I think it`s unfortunate
that it`s fallen almost entirely to the United States in support on the
ground of Kurdish forces and Iraqi special forces only.

I think there ought to be a much larger coalition. Yes, I think it`s
very important that the United States recognize its interest in crushing
this movement, particularly in Iraq and in the long run in Syria as well.
And I think that`s in the interest of a very wide coalition of forces in
the Middle East that are -- that know it but haven`t yet taken action.

HAYES: So that seems to be the case. Regionally, ISIS is very
different from other groups because it doesn`t really have a kind of
sovereign client relationship. It`s not backed by some foreign
intelligence apparatus. It is its own Crazy Zoey-generous thing.

IBISH: Yes, that`s right. Sorry. No, I was going to say, I mean,
when they claim to be a state, when they call themselves an Islamic state,
they`re not kidding. Now, in a way, it is sort of a joke because it`s this
weird network of roads and bases and towns, but it is a quasi-state in the
sense that it`s autonomous.

And Western intelligence and other sources of information hold and I
think plausibly that they`ve been financially independent for many years
between the ransoms they get, the oil and cash that they`ve stolen and the
other bode that they retrieve in sort of inland pirate routine they have.
It`s very lucrative, it`s very profitable criminal conspiracy that they
have going.

HAYES: OK. You`re advocating for some kind of broad coalition to, in
your words, crush them. To me, the question is the then what question.

I remember, I don`t think there was a ton of debate about like, are
these good people? Are they doing good stuff? Are they good for the
people whose lands they`re taking?

But I remember all that was true about Gadhafi in 2010, 2011 and if
you look at Libya today, the then what question seems to be a very scary
question mark and can say about ISIS` progenitor, al Qaeda in Iraq, who we
crushed in some basic tactical military sense, who then gave birth to this.

IBISH: Well, the problem is the crushing of al Qaeda in Iraq in
particular was done in way that was entirely betrayed by Nouri al Maliki
and the Iraqi government and we let the Iraqis essentially get away with
it. They broke their own promises but they broke our promises, too.
That`s not something that we ever should have turned a blind eye to.

The "what next" question is really complicated. It`s a serious one
and it has two different answers. One in Iraq where I think you really
need to look at, you know, a much greater form of federalism in Iraq, and a
way to empower the Sunni/Iraqi Arabs who essentially either have not done
anything to stem the wave of ISIS in their areas or have in some cases,
like former Baathists and others, fought alongside them. They have got to
be incentivized to see ISIS for what it is and I think it`s entirely
possible in the context of say, look, there`s a future in which you have
much less of a dominant subordination relationship with Baghdad, where you
get to run your own affairs.

Where you start to look much -- your areas look much more like the
Kurdish areas that are autonomous and, you know, you become much more self-
governing and don`t have to live with these crazy people that you
essentially already know you don`t really like. But you relied on either
out of desperation or rage.

In Syria, I think, it`s much more about how to change the Assad regime
and create regime change where, in fact, there`s a symbiotic relationship
between ISIS and the Assad regime, where they`re not allies in any
meaningful sense but they know how to make each other useful and rely on
each other. ISIS depends on its popularity, for its popularity on Assad`s
brutality and Assad depends I think on ISIS` insanity to --


HAYES: To say to the rest of the world it`s me or them basically.

IBISH: Exactly.

HAYES: Right. You wrote a piece basically saying we shouldn`t --
your point is we shouldn`t fall into the trap thinking some airstrikes
against ISIS in Syria --

IBISH: There are two traps not to fall into. One is the trap of
thinking that because, you know, by striking ISIS in Iraq, you would be
helping Assad, therefore you shouldn`t do it. That`s trap one. And trap
two is ISIS is so bad, you should ally with Assad against ISIS. Those are
both ridiculous mistakes and wrong.

HAYES: It would truly be some kind of horrific garish American Middle
East policy if we ended up on the side of Assad after the carnival of

Hussein Ibish, thank you.

IBISH: Sure.

HAYES: All right. The president headed to Estonia right now. And
it`s not too much of an overstatement. He`s headed there to tell them, I
got you. We`ll explain, ahead.


HAYES: Every single important thing about you is on someone else`s
computer and the cost of that simple fact are becoming more and more
apparent. That`s ahead.


HAYES: Tonight, President Obama`s en route to Estonia where he will
meet with leaders of the Russia bordering NATO country, reassure Baltic
allies and send a message to Russia, itself, the U.S. takes what it views
as Russian aggression seriously. This after Russian President Vladimir
Putin reportedly told a European official he could, quote, "take Kiev in
two weeks if he wanted to."

Russian government spokesperson said the comments were taken out of
context. But Putin`s alleged comments may not simply be boasting. If you
look at what`s been happening on the ground in eastern Ukraine over the
past couple of weeks.


troops and hundreds of the foreign tanks now on the territory of Ukraine.

REPORTER: Ukraine`s forces have been winning, breaking the grip of
pro-Russian rebels in eastern Ukraine. But now, with Russian help, the
rebels are pushing back across a broad front, the clashes on land and sea
with the Ukrainian coast guard coming under attack.


HAYES: Just back in early July, the Ukrainian government made
significant strides in what they were calling at the time an anti-terror
campaign against Russian-aligned rebels, taking back the city of Sloviansk.

But fighting continued in the weeks after the separatist rebels
apparently downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, killing almost 300 people.

By the end of August, rebels suffered several territory defeats. And
Russia had sent a convoy of humanitarian supplies into rebel-controlled
eastern Ukraine.

Now, over the last two weeks rebels have managed to take back
significant amounts of territory. The dotted red line, dotted line, shows
areas of eastern Ukraine held by the rebels as of mid-August, and the
yellow shading shows the areas rebel control as of yesterday. That`s a
significant expansion.

Right now, NATO estimates there are more than 1,000 Russian troops in
Ukraine proper. Russia, it should be clear, denies this. While the U.S.
has been careful not to use the word invasion, Ukrainian defense official
said they`re fighting, a, quote, "full-scale invasion."

Joining me now, Ambassador William Taylor, former ambassador to

Ambassador, the president is meeting in the Baltic and going to a NATO
meeting, I guess for the purposes of reassuring. Is there something he can
say or do at this point that`s going to reassure anyone?

is. I think he can make it clear we take this Russian invasion, let`s call
it that, what it is, very seriously and that we need to contain and deter
Mr. Putin from these kinds of actions and in terms of actions that we can
take that the Europeans and the Americans can take is we can expand the
economic sanctions that are already having an effect to a broader range of
Russians and a deeper effect on the Russian economy.

And that`s not enough. The sanctions are working, need to be expanded
but are not enough. We should -- he could provide this military support to
the Ukrainians.

HAYES: Why won`t that just be read as an escalation by Russia who
will then escalate in part? People keep saying the sanctions are going to
work, we can escalate the sanctions and we can provide military support.

But it seems to me the asymmetry in all of this from the beginning has
been the fact Eastern Ukraine is in Vladimir Putin`s backyard and not in
the U.S.` and not in Germany`s, and so, he has made calculations about what
he wants to do there or what he thinks is important to happen there that
are always going to be stronger than other powers.

TAYLOR: They`re not going to be stronger than the international
system that we put together. That the Americans and the Europeans and,
indeed, the rest of the world put together after World War II and certainly
after the Cold War, that system whereby nations don`t invade other nations.
Nations don`t annex parts of their neighbors.

That system is important to us, it`s important to Europeans and it`s
important to world security.

HAYES: Well, I mean, that system has been honored in the breach as
the people in Iraq will tell you in 2003. I mean, just so we`re very clear
about that.

TAYLOR: Well, let`s be clear about what the motivation is. The
Americans are not in Iraq anymore, and the Russians are deeply inside of
Ukraine. And they are taking territory. They have taken -- they have
taken Crimea. There`s no comparison.

HAYES: Right. I`m not saying there`s comparison. I`m just saying
the sort of notion of territorial integrity is a little hard for the U.S.
to go around preaching given what we`ve seen over the past 10 years in
terms of the U.S.` record.

TAYLOR: The U.S. has a pretty good record of not invading countries
and taking their oil, taking their territory, taking their assets. What we
have seen the Russians do is exactly that. That`s not comparable.

HAYES: We`re getting word the president is now ordering 350 new
military personnel to protect diplomatic positions and personnel in
Baghdad. That wire has just crossed from the White House.

So, here`s the other issue about NATO. This is a NATO meeting and the
sort of core complaint emanating from Russia and Vladimir Putin has been
about this kind of NATO encroachment, right, basically you`re going to end
up ultimately after the Maidan, after the kind of pro-European, pro-Western
Ukrainian government with Ukraine as a NATO member, John Kerry was very
careful to sort of offer assurances away from that.

Do you still think that`s important?

TAYLOR: I think it`s important for the Ukrainians to decide
unmolested, unpressured by their Russian neighbors, Ukrainians decide what
they want to do. How they want to ensure their own security. Ukrainians
can decide whether or not they want to apply to NATO for membership. Not
the Russians. The Russians don`t get a vote in that. The Ukrainians get a
vote and NATO alliance gets a vote.

HAYES: What is the ultimate end game to this as you foresee it? I
was reading some really interesting reporting from Keith Gessen in "London
Review of Books", who wrote a long dispatch from eastern Ukraine. One of
the things that struck me, it was that -- obviously, there`s tremendous
amount of Russian infiltration there and there`s Russian backing for the
rebels but there`s also just a lot of people in that part of you rain who
were freaked out by the uprising in Maidan. They don`t like the new
government. There`s a genuine political fissure there that`s going to have
to be dealt with to bring this to a solution.

TAYLOR: And that genuine fissure has been addressed by Mr.
Poroshenko. Mr. Poroshenko was elected by every oblast that was allowed to
vote, including oblast parts of Ukraine in the east and in the south.

So, Mr. Poroshenko made a proposal to devolve some powers to local
governments to be able to decide on budgets, decide on language policy,
decide on local infrastructure. That kind of devolution of power makes a
good sense and that would address most of the concern that these people
have expressed.

HAYES: Ambassador William Taylor, thank you very much. Appreciate

TAYLOR: Thank you.

HAYES: After President Obama leveled sanctions on a Russian bank over
the situation in Ukraine, the bank hired two ex-U.S. senators, former
Senate Majority Leader Trent Lott, former Senator John Breaux, to lobby
against those sanctions and they`re not the only former members of Congress
making bank literally. I`ll tell you who else is cashing in, next.


HAYES: As we have been documenting every night here, it has been a
rough summer news wise. So, we are taking every opportunity we can to
highlight good news. Like the heartwarming story of the fellow American
landing on his feet after a massive setback.

You remember this scrappy congressman who hit a rough patch when he is
running for re-election. When he as house majority leader lost the primary
election to a candidate he outspent by an ungodly ratio, a candidate pretty
much no one outside of his district had ever heard of.


of long faces here tonight, and it is disappointing, sure. But, I believe
in this country. I believe there is opportunity around the next corner for
all of us.


HAYES: That turned out to be pretty prophetic, at least as far as
Eric Cantor, himself, is concerned. So turn that frown upside-down,
because right around the corner is Moelis, a boutique "Wall Street"
investment bank.

And, starting tomorrow, Cantor will soon, his new role there as Vice
Chairman, Managing Director, which will be a marked monetary improvement on
his $193,000 a year salary as house majority leader.

Cantor will receive a total of $3.4 million for joining the bank. Our
crew member just rolled his eyes and nodded his head. Including a cash
bonus of $1.2 million in 2015, according to the company`s S.E.C. filing.
Now, Eric Cantor may be moving onto the big money on "Wall Street, but he
has not forgotten where he came from.


REP. CANTOR: My grandparents fled religious persecution in Europe in
order to find a better life. My grandmother, a young Jewish widow, was
soon raising my dad above a grocery store in Richmond just trying to make
ends meet. And, so it goes, two generations later, her grandson would
represent part of what was James Madison`s seat in the house. And, then go
on to serve as its majority leader.


HAYES: And, then go on to serve as vice chairman of a "Wall Street"
investment bank. Only in America.


HAYES: Police officers in Ferguson, Missouri are now wearing body
cameras. And, according to Police Chief Thomas Jackson, the cameras seem
to be a real hit among members of his department. Officers have been
trained to use the devices after two companies donated.

Chief Jackson telling the St. Louis post dispatch, the officers have
been receptive to the gadgets, quote, "They are really enjoying them."
Devices attached to uniforms, recording audio and video, but as Chief
Jackson notes, there is a bit of a learning curve, quote, "We are still
playing with them."

Cameras, of course, are just one tangible reaction to the storm inside
the Ferguson police department after one of its officers, Darren Wilson,
shot and killed 18-year-old Mike Brown. This weekend, marchers from across
the country came to Ferguson calling for accountability, marking three
weeks since the unarmed teenager was killed. His body left in street for
four hours.

Officer Darren Wilson not only remains on paid leave. He has been the
beneficiary of a wildly effective, but mysterious viral fund-raising
campaign that is netted more than $400,000 online. Journalist Matt Pearce
of the "Los Angeles Times" has tried to get to the bottom of exactly who is
behind the fund-raising efforts after two fund-raising pages bearing
Officer Wilson`s name were shut down this weekend.

Reportedly, so that tax lawyers can decide how the donation need to be
handled. "Support Officer Darren" and "Support Officer Wilson" are two
separate pages collecting donations through the fund-raising site gofundme.
The first page, "Support Officer Darren Wilson" has come into question
because as Pearce`s reports, its creator was anonymous; had not received
certified status from gofundme.

Enter Missouri State Representative, Jeffrey Roorda. Roorda, a
democrat running for state senate, is helping with fund-raising efforts for
Officer Wilson and tells the "L.A. Times," the creator of the "Support
Officer Darren Wilson" page is a teenage girl from the St. Louis area.

Roorda, a former police officer, himself, is vice President of Shield
of Hope. That is the charity arm of the fraternal order of policing.
Roorda says that Shield of Hope created the second Wilson fund-raising page
after the mother of the creator of the first fund-raising page asked the
union to take over.

Here is where things get really strange. According to Matt Pearce`s
reporting, quote, "When the "Times" relayed Roorda`s story to the anonymous
account holder of the page purportedly created by the teenage girl, and
unidentified administrator responded, `I can tell you. I have not worked
with or spoken with Rep. Roorda. The information you have been given is
false`." And, Joining me now is Matt Pearce, National Reporter for "Los
Angeles Times." He has also been covering the events in Ferguson with
tremendous diligence. All right, Matt, what is the story here? What is
going on?

not actually have the story confirmed. There are essentially two stories
as you pointed out, Representative Roorda spoke with me by phone last night
and told me the story about how there was this teenage girl from the St.
Louis area who had felt moved after the shooting and all the events that
came after it to raise a fund-raiser in support of Darren Wilson.

And, she apparently got freaked out by threats that were coming in
against her, because she apparently had her name originally linked with the
page. And, so her mom approached the police department and asked them to
take it over.

Well, that is the story. But when I contacted the administrator, as
you mentioned, of that page, they responded to me anonymously through
gofundme that they had never spoken with Representative Roorda. All the
information that he had given me was false.

And, actually I just got an e-mail from them about half an hour ago
because I asked them, you know, is this still true or are you still
sticking to your story that the representative is not giving the right

They said -- they said, yes, you know? So, there is still -- they are
still saying that they are not a teenage girl from St. Louis. So, we do
not really know who is in control of this more than $200,000 worth of

HAYES: That is what is so crazy here, right? I mean we got two
pages. One of which we do know who is behind it. That is the one that is
sort of officially like affiliated with the police union and Rep. Roorda
has been working on. The other one we do not know.

But, the fact is there is $400,000. I mean, am I wrong? That is real
money, right? That is money that has been raised and can be claimed for
some entity for Darren Wilson as soon as tax lawyers get through it? Like,
that is real money.

PEARCE: That is actual more than $ $200,000 worth of donations from
people who donated wanting to support Officer Wilson. And, you know,
actually gofundme spokeswoman did tell me that, you know, they had spoken
with whoever was running that page and they said they did not have a reason
to believe that, you know, this person was acting fraudulently.

You know, at the same time, gofundme`s terms of service, you know,
they do not really vouch for the donation pages that they put out. You
know, gofundme purports itself as a neutral platform, you know? Anyone can
go on there and create a page for whatever cause.

You know, gofundme does not have any kind of interest in going in
there and censoring that kind of -- censoring by content or fund-raiser or
whatever. And, so you have these competing fund-raisers for Officer Darren
Wilson and for the Mike Brown family, and we just do not know for sure who
is in charge of more than $200,000 worth of donations.

HAYES: And, we also know that this was something that kind of got
caught in a kind of viral updraft, I think in the wake of media attention
on Ferguson and the death of Mike Brown, where it became a kind of way for
people that felt like the media attention was unfair or that Darren Wilson
was being unfairly maligned to kind of register their dissent. Do you
think -- did Representative Roorda say at all that he was surprised by just
how much money -- I mean, $400,000 is a lot of money.

PEARCE: Well, he did say he was overwhelmed, you know? The fraternal
order of police, which he is -- or at least the watch, that he is vice
President of, that he helps represent, he says he is never really seen
anything like this. And, you know, they had not really been set up to deal
with something like this.

At the same time, we have seen, you know, high-profile cases in the
past where you have had defendants like George Zimmerman who have received
a lot of critical media attention and that resulted in quite a few people
making a little bit more quieter donations to his cause in support of him.

And, so in one way, the amount of donations that have been made to
Officer Wilson are not surprising, and something that Representative Roorda
told me is that in his district, the constituents that he spoke with,
wanted to wait to see what would happen during the trial process.

HAYES: Matt Pearce of the "L.A. Times."

PEARCE: If there was one.

HAYES: Thank you so much. There is one thing about this big hack
that is affecting Hollywood celebrities that is in a weird way reassuring.
And, I will tell you what it is, next.


HAYES: Hollywood is reeling from the posting of nude photos of
actress Jennifer Lawrence and other female celebrities after the apparent
hacking of their private Apple-hosted iCloud accounts, as a backup cloud
accounts that save all the images in your iPhone.

The story is resonating everywhere because it is the latest stark
reminder of the simple emerging truth that we have to look at every day.
There is no privacy anymore. Any privacy we think we have is pretty close
to an illusion. The origins of the hack are unclear. The photos were
first posted to the website 4chan, which is basically the internet`s dark-

A place where people may post images anonymously, which does little of
anything to edit, censor, or select out content. Lawrence`s publicist in a
statement, "This is a flagrant violation of privacy. Authorities have been
contacted and will prosecute anyone who posts the stolen photos of Jennifer

Several other female celebrities` photos were also posted. And, the
FBI said it is aware of the allegations concerning computer intrusions and
the unlawful release of material involving high profile individuals and is
addressing the matter.

Apple, for its part is admitting the privacy invasion appears to be
through, though not necessarily they say the fault of its system. Saying
in a statement, "After more than 40 hours of investigation, we have
discovered that certain celebrity accounts were compromised by a very
targeted attack on user names, passwords and security questions. A
practice that has become all too common on the internet. None of the cases
we investigated has resulted from any breach in any of Apple`s systems
including iCloud or Find My iPhone."

But, the breach may have not been system wide is in some way
reassuring. But in ways, we will discuss in a moment, not so much.
Everybody bit of information we store or post or even possess is at risk.
So, the question is, does information want to be free? Is this the natural
state of things? Are celebrities the canary in the coal mine? And, whose
fault is this anyway? All that when we return.


HAYES: We are back. And, joining me now to talk about the death of
privacy and the selfie era, which we live in and makes me feel like an old
grandfather who wants everyone to get off his lawn, is Jessica Valenti,
columnist for "The Guardian; founder of She just wrote a
piece on celebrity hacking in "The Atlantic."

Susan Crawford, Visiting Professor in Intellectual Property at Harvard
Law School. Author of the new book "The Responsive City." And, Dan
Ackerman, Senior Editor at "CNET." Your peace today, Jessica was great and
"The Atlantic" was basically like, this is a violation. If it is not
sexual or assault in a legal sense, it is something adjacent to that.

reason people are seeking out these pictures, the reason that they are so
titillating, the reason they are appealing is because -- precisely because
they are nonconsensual.

HAYES: Right.

VALENTI: There are plenty of pictures of naked women on the internet.
They are not hard to find. These women put up pictures voluntarily, you
know? But, we are seeking out the ones that women did not want. And, I
think that says something about our culture and the way that people still
feel entitled to women`s sexuality whether we want them to or not.

HAYES: And, it is a pretty clear violation in like the deepest sense,
and now -- it is not just celebrities. I mean, that is the important point
here, right? This is actually the tip of the iceberg on a phenomenon that
is happening to women from your local high school, through, you know,
someone that you work with. I mean this is a real thing that happens.

VALENTI: Right. When it happens to people who are not celebrities we
call it revenge porn, right? There are laws around it. This is happening
all the time. I mean it is a terrible, awful thing, but it is also sort of
a predictable outcome of a misogynous culture that invades other`s

HAYES: Also to me, resolved, colon, the internet is horrible to
women. Susan Crawford, in opposition to that.

LAW SCHOOL: This is technology. We are in an arms race and some people
are unarmed.

HAYES: It is more than technology. It is technology plus a culture
that is sick and weird towards women.

CRAWFORD: I will accept that. And, that culture exists offline as
well as online.

HAYES: That is true.

CRAWFORD: It is just another layer of life. It is not as if it is
separate from anything else we are doing. And, so we are at a very
primitive stage, trying to protect our own information. There are so many
positive things that can be done with cloud technologies.

We should back up the frame a bit and think that actually for
telemedicine, for education, the cloud is everything and we have not quite
figured out how to tell people have better passwords and make sure that
double factor authentication.

HAYES: OK. Yes. So, if you get one thing out of this or this is the
news you can use -- the two-factor authentication. You log in. They send
you a code on text message for your Gmail or whatever e-mail service you
use. OK. Use that. But the other thing is, there is no security.

Like, every security regime is either bulky and terrible and the other
thing is like, where there is a will there is a way. That is the other
thing, right? Like is it really going to be the case that random celebrity
X or just random citizen Y has a security able to stop the crowd source
penetration of a hundred weirdos, who want to break in?

DAN ACKERMAN, SENIOR EDITOR AT "CNET": Yes. A thief will always
break into a vault if he has enough time, enough resources, and when you
kind of crown sorts of things across hundreds, or even thousands of people,
eventually that will happen. You have to sort of balance convenience
versus the degree of security that you want.

And, it is also because we think of sort of digital things, whether it
is people`s private photographs or movies or music or games as sort of
sharable, that kind of information wants to be free, excuse makes people
feel like it is not a crime to take or download something that is not
theirs, as long as it is not a physical product.

HAYES: Right.

VALENTI: And, I have seen this excuse sort of floating around the
internet like, "I am not the one who hacked them. I am not the one who is
spreading them around, so it is OK for me to look at them." No. Every
time you seek out these pictures, every time you click on one of these
pictures, you are perpetuating -- you are participating in the abuse and
harassment of women.

HAYES: And, someone said in our editorial meeting this morning, if
someone came in and said, there is a hole cut in the locker room you can go
look at, right? You would not be like, "Well, someone else cut the hole,
obviously. I will go take a look." It is clear that is a violation.

CRAWFORD: There are a lot of human parts to the story. I mean
celebrities are just like us. Take their most intimate pictures on their
most intimate devices. This is very human stuff. We have to figure out
how to get better at this. And, the services do to. Apple could be doing
more to promote double factor authentication.

HAYES: Right.

CRAWFORD: But, they are not at fault of the human nature that had
people putting pictures in the cloud. In fact, that is on balance a good
thing for people to be able to share electronic files. Not those of
others, but their own --

HAYES: Wait, but that is the whole point, right? This whole system
when moving to in which like everything that is important to you is on
someone else`s computer only works if you trust it, right? But, there is
no actual reason to trust it.

We trust it out of convenience. But, why should I trust it? Either
the NSA could get it or the FBI can get it with a warrant or some anonymous
Russian hacker can get it or 4chan can get it, but like who are we kidding?
It is all just going to be out there.

CRAWFORD: OK. Let us accept that, but then let us make sure we have
regimes in place that are as strong as they can be. It is an arms race.
We are in this fight with each other to try to lock down information
without making it so unavailable that we cannot use it.

ACKERMAN: And, it is an arms race. Once everyone has double factor
authentication, we have to move to triple factor. Once we start using bio
stuff in using our fingerprints, they are going to be cloning thumbs.

HAYES: Right.


HAYES: Well -- great.

VALENTI: I just have to say, technology aside, there has never been
privacy for women.

HAYES: Yes. That is a good point.

VALENTI: You know, and Roxanne Gaber wrote about this in her terrific
column at "Guardian U.S." that, you know, this has been happening to women

HAYES: Right. That is why the people is this thing.

VALENTI: Right. Exactly. Technology has just given abusers a
broader set of tools to harass and abuse women.

CRAWFORD: We would not want to burn the village to save it, frankly,
because technology has also given women a voice they never had.

HAYES: Right.

VALENTI: Absolutely.

CRAWFORD: So, let us keep this in perspective a bit. And, look at
the positive uses of the cloud.

HAYES: But, here is my feeling, all right. It just seems to me the
case that if someone with the will or determination or tactical
sophistication just says like -- decides like mark you, right, and I know a
lot of women who work online who have been on the receiving end of
precisely this which is, like, "I am going to get your address and I am
going to get this about you and going to get that -- you are defenseless."
That is the basic fact about internet security. Which is that someone with
sufficient technical expertise with animus combined wants to come after
you, right?

ACKERMAN: There is almost nothing you can do and seems to be what
happened here. A group of people spent months if not years targeting
people and using very low-tech methods that was not a big super intelligent
hacker collective. This is very basic stuff, trying to get people`s
password reminding questions.

CRAWFORD: Criminals have always used every form of technology
available and that telephone was terrifying to people when it was first
introduced. We are just children at this moment. We do not quite know
what we are doing.

HAYES: I do not -- the other thing I think about all the time in
regards to this is just, like, the world of teenage girls who are in
situations in which they have people that they are in intimate
relationships with, they are texting with, they are texting photos to and
once that photo leaves your hands -- it is like anything you e-mail to
someone, you e-mailed to the world. And, once that photo leaves your hands
-- that disgusting gray market of those images, that is out there, right?

VALENTI: Right. I mean it is really disturbing. And, you and I have
daughters around the same age and I do not want to know what technology is
going to look like in ten years when they are teenagers.

HAYES: Right.

VALENTI: But there is not anything that we can do about that, right?
Like this is the way the teenagers communicate. This is the way the people
have romantic relationships now. You know --

HAYES: That horse has left the barn.


HAYES: To me the point is creating some sort of cultural norm about
like this is wrong, looking at it is wrong, you deserve sanction for it and
then coming up with some way we do have some kind of, whether it is just
two-factor authentication or something where people can feel like they
trust the data that is in their hands. Jessica Valenti, Susan Crawford,
author of the new book "The Responsive City" out today --

CRAWFORD: Thank you.

HAYES: -- And, Dan Ackerman. Thank you. That is "All In" for this
evening. The "Rachel Maddow" show starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.


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