Skip navigation

All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, September 5th, 2014

Read the transcript from the Friday show

  Most Popular
Most viewed

September 5, 2014

Guest: Jacob Sullum, Jon Ralston, Bakari Sellers, Jelani Cobb, Jay Smooth


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.

Abrupt landing. A chartered plane with as many as 100 Americans on
board grounded in Iran. We`ll have the latest details.

organization that is running roughshod through that much territory.

HAYES: The president says the U.S. and its allies are preparing to
take the fight to ISIS, while Republican hawks take a victory lap.

And Tesla hits the jackpot. State of Nevada offers the electric car
company over $1 billion in tax breaks to build a battery factory. Even if
the factory succeeds, will state taxpayers lose?

ELON MUSK, TESLA: I think people in Nevada should be very proud that
that`s the state you have.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Breaking news tonight: 100 Americans have now left Iran hours after
the charter plane carrying them from Afghanistan to Dubai was ordered to
land when it crossed into Iranian airspace. The Fly Dubai flight which
often carries U.S. contractors from Bagram Airfield in Afghanistan to Dubai
failed to re-file a flight plan after it delayed departure from Bagram.
Ground control in Iran told the plane to land at an airport in Bandar
Abbas, or Iranian fighter jets would be scrambled.

Pilot voluntarily landed before that happened, thank goodness.

Fly Dubai then sent a second plane and trans-loaded the passengers and
baggage on to the new plane. It took off to Dubai within the last two
hours. U.S. officials tell NBC News it was resolved diplomatically. The
State Department characterized what happened as a bureaucratic issue.

Joining me now, NBC News contributor, journalist, and expert on
Iranian affairs, Hooman Majd.

Great to have you here, Hooman.


HAYES: All right. So, I guess the reason everybody gets panicked
about this when it first crossed the wires is obviously the precedent of
American hostages in Iran in 1979, but also the fact that this is an
incredibly delicate moment between these two countries talk to each other.
They don`t have official diplomatic channels. So, when something like this
happens, you worry that this can escalate.

MAJD: Well, yes. I mean, I think it`s just too juicy of a headline -
- 100 Americans stuck in Iran.

HAYES: That`s exactly right.

MAJD: And then the idea that planes are going back and forth between
Kabul or Bagram Air Force Base in Dubai where transfer to other flights go
across the world, and they have to cross over Iranian airspace. And
clearly, this is happening all the time.

HAYES: Yes, right.

MAJD: And it has been since 2002. The Iranians have been -- it`s
clearly in their national interest. It always has been for Afghanistan to
be stable and for the Taliban not to return. The Taliban was as big an
enemy of Iran, maybe even bigger than it was of the United States.

And, you know, not to go too deep into history, but the Iranians
helped or offered to help.

HAYES: In the early parts of the Afghanistan war.

MAJD: Absolutely. Even in getting Hamid Karzai to become president
because Iran and the U.S. wanted that to happen and there was this
infighting inside Afghanistan. So, there was a lot of coordination with
Iran, between Iran and U.S. at the time and, of course, we know what
happened. George Bush, State of the Union address where he said Iran was
evil and that upset further cooperation with Iran and probably upset many
other things like the nuclear negotiations.

But, right now, we`re at a very sensitive moment between Iran and the
U.S. Both sides really want this nuclear deal, which has a deadline of
November 24th, three months away. There`s going to be notions in here in
New York in a couple of weeks over the nuclear issue, which is a big deal
for both countries. There`s ISIS.

HAYES: Yes. And both sides now, talk about the Taliban, there was
this great reporting about how the U.S. had Special Forces who were
straight-up coordinating with Iranian intelligence.

MAJD: Yes.

HAYES: In the early days of the Afghan war because the Iranians
despise the Taliban, feared the Taliban, wanted to see the Taliban. ISIS
is now the kind of most recent iteration --

MAJD: Iteration of the Taliban. Exactly.

HAYES: These are people that are coming into towns and executing
every Shia Muslim they find.

MAJD: Yes.

HAYES: As a matter of course, right?

MAJD: Absolutely.

HAYES: What we`re seeing is this massively brutal violent sectarian
agenda that, of course, Iran, is quite opposed to.

MAJD: Apart from it being sectarian, they`re opposed to Iraq breaking
up, breaking up into a Kurdistan.

HAYES: Particularly when the government of Nouri al Maliki is
essentially an ally.

MAJD: Well, and the new government will be, too. Iran was, again,
did coordinate, I think probably if not officially, unofficially in the
United States in getting Nouri al Maliki to resign which was a big problem,
as you know, a few weeks ago, and -- or actually to step down from being
the premier.

HAYES: Right, yes.

MAJD: And so, both Iran and the U.S. backed the new premier. And so,
here we have, again, interests that are colliding. Iran and the U.S. both
want a stable Iraq. The U.S. does not want to put boots on the ground.
Iran has that cliche of boots on the ground.

Iran has boots on the ground. The commander of the Quds force you
just mentioned, the big piece in "The New Yorker" last year on him, Qasim
Sulaimani, there`s a photograph of him in Amerli, in the town that was just

HAYES: That was referenced in the most recent hostage video.

MAJD: Yes, exactly. There`s a photograph of him there on an Iranian
Web site. Not just on, you know, not a fake photo as far as we know. So,
he`s there on the ground. And we`re bombing.

So, I doubt if we are bombing his positions, because he`s working with
the Kurds and with the Shiites.

HAYES: It is such a crazy situation to manage right now.

MAJD: It is.

HAYES: I mean, because in some levels, when you move, you know, 50,
60 kilometers in one direction and it`s -- you move into Syria where the
Iranian government is alive with Assad, again against ISIS, but sort of
against the U.S. or FSA.

MAJD: Against everyone who wants to overthrow.

HAYES: Right. You have this tremendously tangled contentious,
dangerous part of the world in which you have these two powers. These
historical enemies who find themselves aligned in certain ways.

MAJD: Yes. And let`s not forget about Turkey and Saudi Arabia here
as well. Saudi Arabia in particular because of the funding they can
provide and Qatar as well. The funding they can provide to groups such as
ISIS. Now, of course, Saudi Arabia denies they`re funding ISIS, but there
certainly has been money flowing to a group such as ISIS or ISIS itself
inside Syria or Iraq.

But, fundamentally, for the United States, our interests right now are
aligned with Iran`s interests in the Middle East, even when it comes to

HAYES: I would say that the -- there are many people in the Israeli
government who would beg to differ, to put that -- Michael Oren recently
said the lesser of two evils was ISIS over Iran. He said that in Denver
in, in Colorado recently.

Hooman Majd --

MAJD: That would be shocking. If they were the lesser --

HAYES: I`m just saying. There are some who make that argument,
always great to have you.

MAJD: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. News of the plane stranded in Iran broke today
just hours after news that another plane, this one carrying Americans, a
private turbo prop plane, had stopped responding to air traffic control.

Larry Glazer, real estate developer from Rochester, New York, and
wife, Jane, left Rochester in a brand new seven engine prop plane at 8:25
Eastern Time this morning heading for Naples, Florida. Just over an hour
and a half later, Mr. Glazer, veteran pilot, contacted Atlanta air traffic
control to report a problem on board.


PILOT: We need to descend down to about one eight zero. We have an
indication that is not correct on the plane.


Descend and maintain level two five zero.

PILOT: Two five zero, we need to get lower, 900 kilo November.

CONTROLLER: Working on that.


HAYES: Once the plane descended 25,000 feet, communications stopped,
F-15 jets were scrambled to intercept the plane, a relatively rare move.
When they caught up with the flight, the pilot was slumped over, the
windows were frosted.


F-15 PILOT: I can see the chest rising and falling. Right before I
left, it was the first time we could see that he was actually breathing.
And defending on how fast they descend, he may regain consciousness once
the aircraft starts descending for fuel starvation.


HAYES: F-15 jets had to break off the chase when the plane reached
Cuban airspace then 14 miles from the Jamaican coast the plane went down in
the ocean. Jamaican officials say they have found a wreckage field in that
vicinity and dive teams are heading out to search the area. Tonight, a
leading theory is the cabin lost pressure and the Glazers were
incapacitated due to lack of oxygen.

Joining me on the phone tonight: retired NBC News aviation
correspondent Robert Hager. He had seen it all.

So, Bob, what is our best idea of what`s happened? Obviously, there`s
been precedent. The Payne Stewart flight comes to mind here.

That surely is so similar, back in 1999. I remember we were on the air all
day that day, for four hours while the plane flew on kind of ghostlike and
in that case, they also scrambled fighter jets up and they looked at the
plane. They could see the windows were frosted over, indicating it was
very cold inside which is a sure sign of lack of oxygen, oxygen

They could see, again, in that case, the pilot slumped over the
controls. So, this came down very, very much like that. You can`t tell
what it is that caused that oxygen depravation in the plane. You know,
could it have been a seal somewhere on the plane? Something wrong with the
air circulation system?

The air comes in -- bleed air off the engines, to keep the oxygen
supply replenished inside. So things can go wrong with that. We just
don`t know yet.

HAYES: What happens when a plane becomes depressurized?

HAGER: Well, the oxygen leaves, so the pilot -- if the pilot realizes
what`s happening in time, there`s supplemental oxygen on most planes and
there surely was on this one, so if the pilot is able to realize what`s
going on and react, he could grab the oxygen mask and take in the
supplemental oxygen. You can`t tell from that little radio transmission
that we heard where the pilot has radioed in that he`s got a problem. We
don`t know whether he knew it was a problem with the pressurization system
-- could be, you know, something else is going on with the plane. We just
don`t know.

So, don`t know if he had any time to try to get the oxygen mask, but
evidently, in the end did not, because everything else on the way that
flight traveled out there in a straight line and everything indicates that
both the pilot and his wife were unconscious, if not dead already.

HAYES: Over the course of your career of covering aviation, there was
tremendous strides made in the safety of commercial aviation. We`re
talking about big commercial carriers. You know, record low number of
fatalities in the U.S. domestic flights for a number of years. It doesn`t
seem like that same kind of safety revolution has happened with smaller
planes or am I wrong and we just sort of pay attention when they go down?

HAGER: No, I think that the record has improved a lot with the small
planes as well. I mean, to have moved forward sort of in tandem.

And you`re right, there`s a tremendous difference. When I first
started reporting aviation, this is about 35 years ago, something like
that, there was a big commercial crash at least once, if not twice a year
in the U.S. And now, I mean, it`s just such a rare thing.

So, on both the private planes and the big jets, the safety record has
improved remarkably.

HAYES: Yet, these do go down relatively often, or go down more often
than commercial jetliners. Is that just due to the wider spectrum of pilot
ability? Is that due to fact that these are just less redundant machines
than massive big corporate jetliners?

HAGER: It`s both of those, but in particular, what you mentioned
about the pilots -- I mean, the commercial pilots are so highly trained and
they`re in the simulators and they`re constantly presented with these
different accident scenarios and react to them in the simulator, it`s just
like flying the plane. Private pilots, they also get simulator training if
they want it, but it`s nothing like what the commercial pilots get. So,
yeah, that is one difference is the pilot training.

HAYES: Obviously sort of horrible tragedy for the Glazers and
everyone in their family.

Robert Hager, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

HAGER: Thank you, Chris, yes.

HAYES: After being accused of not having a plan to deal with ISIS,
President Obama announced today he has a plan, sort of. That`s ahead.


HAYES: After almost five months of direct conflict, there`s this
evening a cease-fire in eastern Ukraine. Russia has been at pains to say
it`s not part of the conflict, today`s deal was signed by representatives
of Ukraine, the rebels, the organization for security and cooperation of
Europe, and the Russian Ambassador Mikhail Zurabov, who called it a
breakthrough. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko ordered government
forces to stop hostilities at 6:00 p.m. local time, with reports that
actual fighting has been tapering off as forces from both sides receive
orders to stand down.


HAYES: Today, President Obama announced newly created coalition
against ISIS, with a goal apparently far broader than the initial U.S.
effort to contain and beat back ISIS in Iraq. The goal now, to degrade and
destroy ISIS.


OBAMA: I also leave here confident that NATO allies and partners are
prepared to join in a broad international effort to combat the threat posed
by ISIL. And Secretary Kerry will now travel to the region to continue
building the broad-based coalition that will enable us to degrade and
ultimately destroy ISIL.

You can`t contain an organization that is running roughshod through
that much territory causing that much havoc, displacing that many people,
killing that many innocents.


HAYES: Coming at the end of the NATO summit in Wales, the core
coalition of 10 countries including Canada, Britain, France, Germany,
Italy, Poland, Denmark, Australia, but only officially includes one Muslim
nation, Turkey. ISIS is the rare regional actor without known state
sponsors. Secretary John Kerry`s plans to go to the Middle East following
the NATO Summit is designed to build on informal support the U.S. has
already received in its effort against ISIS, including from so-called
moderate Arab states like United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia.

Of course, it should be noted that U.S. ally and possible partner
against ISIS, Saudi Arabia, has beheaded 19 people this month, including
one for sorcery, according to multiple reports.

The beginning of a meeting with Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and the
foreign and defense ministers of other NATO nations, Secretary Kerry said,
"There`s no contained policy for ISIL. There`s an ambitious, avowed
genocidal, territorial-grabbing, caliphate-desiring, quasi state within a
regular army, and leaving them in some capacity, intact, anywhere, will
leave a cancer in place that will ultimately come back to haunt us."

The plan, however, is still being formed. One diplomat told "The New
York Times," the meeting`s participants at the level of foreign minister
rather than leaders indicated the U.S. was still fleshing out its strategy
against the militant group ISIS.

As the consensus both internationally and domestically seems to be
moving towards military escalation against ISIS, Senator John McCain took a
victory lap, tweeting out, "It`s gratifying to see all these doves turn
into hawks." McCain linked to a "Washington Post" piece about anti-
interventionists in his own party, like Senator Rand Paul, normally solid
opponent of intervention, he appears to be twisting himself into knots
suggesting the U.S. should align with Syria`s President Bashar al Assad and

All indications are that President Obama could get some kind of
authorization from Congress in its very abbreviated September session. The
president did not indicate today the U.S. offensive against ISIS, what has
yet involved air strikes in Syria.

Joining me now, Jacob Sullum, senior editor at "Reason" magazine.

Jacob, I`m curious to just get your sense of how the winds are
shifting politically and how Rand Paul is negotiating this, because it did
seem to me we were really in an anti-interventionist moment just a year ago
when Syria was -- the idea of bombing Syria was floated and there was just
a broad, cross-ideological, bipartisan uprising against that idea and it
seems like things are different right now.

JACOB SULLUM, REASON MAGAZINE: Well, I mean, Rand Paul was in an
anti-interventionist mood as recently as last Friday. He was here in
Dallas. He was asked about ISIS, and he did not say they`d pose a threat
to our national security that we need to address. He did not say we should
wage war against them. He said we need to have a debate about that and
indicated it wasn`t clear to him that ISIS, did, in fact, pose a threat to
U.S. security. That justified war.

And just a few hours after that, he was telling "A.P." if he were
president, he would convene Congress and ask them to authorize war to
completely destroy ISIS. So, something happened there to change his mind,
I guess.

HAYES: What is your understanding on that? Because to me, Paul seems
a likely 2016 candidate. He has a foreign policy that is probably between
his father`s, Ron Paul, and John McCain`s, but closer to his father`s. And
the question has always been, will the Republican donor class and the base
stomach those kind of foreign policy views?

SULLUM: Yes, he`s been tarred as an isolationist by Democrats as well
as Republicans for a long time. Unfairly, I think. And basically, he`s
expecting, you know, skepticism about foreign intervention. He`s being
cautious. He`s not saying he never wants to intervene.

But I think he`s tired of that and wants to show that he is willing to
intervene and this is, you know, an opportunity to do that. To show he`s
not an isolationist.

And it`s unfortunate. It surprised me. It embarrassed me, too,
because I had just written a column praising him for being cautious about
intervention. And it seems to me this is a political move on his part to
try to position himself in terms of the Republican, you know, nomination
race, and to fend off criticism from both parties.

I don`t know whether he really means it or not, but if so, he`s
convinced himself of it pretty quickly.

HAYES: It seems to me that part of what`s happening here is there`s
an effectiveness to the gruesomeness of the ISIS propaganda. I mean, they
are releasing videos that make you despise them and make you want to see
terrible things happen to them because they`re doing horrible things to
Americans in a horrible way, and that is having this kind of intended
effect in that it`s producing the kind of political coalition and consensus
and groundwork for intervention that we are now seeing falling into place.

SULLUM: Yes, I mean, that`s clearly Rand Paul`s reacting to that. If
you look at his statements about this, he says we can`t let them do that.
We can`t let them behead American journalists. We have to protect our

Now, that`s disturbing to me because there are Americans in virtually
every country on Earth. We have a diplomatic presence in almost every
country on Earth. And that`s a pretty dangerous, dangerously open-ended
justification for military intervention if you`re going to say that
wherever Americans are threatened, we may intervene.

That`s exactly the opposite of the approach that Rand Paul was calling
for last week, you know, when he wrote in the "Wall Street Journal" about
how intervening in Syria against Assad was a mistake, that it actually had
strengthened ISIS. He also criticized interventions in Libya and Iraq, I
think rightly so. And it seems to me he is, along with everyone else, is
reacting emotionally and saying this is horrible, we have to do something
about it.

But if you really are cautious and skeptical about foreign
intervention, you have to pause and take a breath and say, is this really
the sort of threat to national security that justifies war?

HAYES: And that is what is going to be interesting to me about the
debate that`s going to happen when Congress comes back. It does look -- I
mean, Bill Nelson obviously is going to be introducing a resolution.
There`s a far broader one introduced in the House by Frank Wolf of
Virginia. There`s going to be a debate.

I mean, members of Congress have to line up, get up and say where they
are. My sense is the combination of those videos and a midterm election,
you know, a few weeks away, is going to lead to a stampede toward granting

SULLUM: That may be what happens. To his credit, at least Paul is
calling for a congressional vote. You know, it happens to be what the
Constitution requires. And it requires it for good reason.

You know, I think a lot of members of Congress we just assume not have
to sign off on it and not be responsible for it, but they should be. There
should be a debate and people should lay out arguments.

This is why this is the sort of threat that justifies war. I`m not
convinced. Apparently Rand Paul is. But they really need to have the
debate so the American public understands what`s going on and what
justification for intervention is.

HAYES: Jacob Sullum, thanks so much.

SULLUM: Thank you.

HAYES: After Michael Brown was shot by police, the police released a
surveillance video that showed him appearing to forcibly take a box of
cigars from a convenience store. And many people saw that as an act of
character assassination. The police justification was that they had no
choice, the media asked for it.

But did the media ask for it? Tonight, we have an answer. That`s


HAYES: Today, new developments surrounding one of the most
controversial episodes in the aftermath of the death of Michael Brown. The
surveillance video released by police in the week following the death of
Michael Brown showing Brown in a convenience store appearing to forcibly
take a box of cigars. That surveillance video was widely seen in the
Ferguson community as a way to assassinate the character of the dead teen.

But on the day police released the video, Ferguson Police Chief Tom
Jackson vigorously defended his decision.


CHIEF TOM JACKSON, FERGUSON POLICE DEPT.: We`ve got a lot of freedom
of information requests for this tape. And at some point, it was just
determined we had to release it. And we didn`t have good cause absent any
other reason to not release it under the FOI.


HAYES: We got a lot of Freedom of Information requests for this tape.
A lot for this tape.

Jackson then went on to say, again, then one more time for good
measure, police released a tape because the press was asking for it.


JACKSON: What I did was release the vide videotape to you because I
had to. I`ve been sitting on it, but I -- too many people put in FOI
requests for that thing and I had to release that tape to you.

REPORTER: If the murderer -- the murder and the robbery did not come
together, why did the video come out and it was not related together?

JACKSON: Because the press asked for it.


HAYES: Key point there, that the murder -- well, the death of Michael
Brown, the killing of Michael Brown, was not related to the robbery,
something the chief would later confirm.

Now, today, new documents are calling the chief`s version of events
into question. Matthew Keys of submitted his own Freedom of
Information request asking formal all requests made by journalist and news
organizations specifically asking for the video of the convenience store
robbery. It turns out there were not a lot of journalists who are asking
for the video. In fact, according to the logs, not one single journalist
asked specifically for the tape.

Of all the logs provided to Keys, he reports just one request seemed
broadly worded enough it could have possibly been read to have included the
tape of the robbery.

On August 12, Joe Kerry (ph) of "St. Louis Dispatch" filed a request
asking for, quote, "all documentation concerning the events leading up and
including the shooting of Michael Brown. This could include, but may not
be limited to incident arrests, and investigative reports, 911 audio,
photos and video obtained by the police department. "

We spoke to Kerry by phone earlier today. He said, he heard rumors of
robbery at the time he have submitted that very broad request, but what if
submitted a similarly broad request, had he not.

And, it is important to know that he asked for a lot of other
information from police as well, both the incident report and the 911 calls
were asked for multiple times by several different outlets in the law
provided keys, official freedom of information request. Police as of today
have chosen not to release the incident report with Darren Wilson`s version
of events or any 911 calls.

But, the apparent effort to spin a tale of a thuggish Michael Brown
and an embattled Officer, Darren Wilson, extends far beyond the Ferguson
Police Department. A right wing blogger today posted pictures he says are
from Michael Brown`s Instagram. They look pretty much like what you would
expect from an 18-year-old male. The blogger writes that they reveal,
quote, "A misogynistic young man obsessed with drugs, money and violence."

Meanwhile, this image has been making its way around Facebook and the
internet, sometimes attached to messages like, quote, "Officer Wilson
arrested after that poor little gentle giant Brown got done with him" or,
quote, "Why is not the mainstream media releasing photos of police Officer
Darren Wilson`s injuries after he was assaulted?"

It purports to be Police Officer Darren Wilson after the incident that
left Brown dead but it is not Wilson, I repeat. It is not Wilson. It is
actually, motocross rider Jim McNeil after a biking accident. And, yet,
think about this, an untold number of people, including potential jurors in
a possible criminal trial against Darren Wilson, are seeing that face in
their feed and think that picture is a true story of what happened.


HAYES: It was a triumphant day yesterday for Nevada Republican
Governor Brian Sandoval, who together with Tesla Motors CEO Elon Musk
announced that Tesla had agreed to construct a $5 billion factory to build
advanced batteries for electric cars in Nevada, that industrial center
outside of the city of Reno.

Supporters say the massive factory, part of Tesla`s long-term strategy
to drive down the cost of its electric cars will create 6,500 manufacturing
jobs and thousands more construction and indirect jobs.


BRIAN SANDOVAL, (R) NEVADA, GOVERNOR: This Giga factory will mean
nearly $100 billion in economic impact to Nevada over the next 20 years.
Think about that.


HAYES: Economic benefit to the state, whatever it turns out to be,
comes at a serious price. Tesla pitted five states against each other in a
kind of bidding auction for the facility. Essentially, running an auction
to see who could make the best offer. In June, Texas Governor Rick Perry,
whose state is famous for throwing incentive packages to companies, test
drove a Tesla of part of his effort to bring the facility to his state.


RICK PERRY, (R) TEXAS, GOVERNOR: You know what, I think what would
make it even prettier is if it had a made in Texas bumper sticker on it.


HAYES: So, what did it take for Nevada to win the factory? I hope
the state legislature approves the deal. Nevada will fork over $1.25
billion in tax breaks to Tesla over two decades. And, Tesla would pay no
sales tax for 20 years. No property tax and payroll tax for ten years. As
part of the deal, the company would get nearly $200 million in transferable
tax credits, which allow businesses to sell tax credits to other companies,
which is basically just a check for $200 million.

Tesla, which would operate tax free for a decade, that essentially is
just money. An open letter before the announcement, good jobs first and
other groups warn the deal may be part of an ongoing race to the bottom
between states with no real winner. Sandoval, the Nevada Governor,
insisted the Tesla deal was worth the pricing. The return on investment
will be 80 to 1.


GOV. SANDOVAL: Even the most skeptical economists would conclude that
this is a strong return for us.


HAYES: Joining me now, Political Reporter Jon Ralston, host of
"Ralston Reports." All right, Jon, good deal? Is it being hailed as a
good deal in Nevada?

JON RALSTON, POLITICAL REPORTER: Well, if you do not hail it as a
good deal, I think your label as a queezling and shown the state line,
Chris. It was really something else to be at this event yesterday in front
of the capital. There are hundreds of people there. They had no idea the
details you just mentioned there.

They came out right before Sandoval and Musk made the announcement.
And, they are jumping to their feet in standing ovations. There must have
been close to a half dozen of them. As if they were seeing a Rolling
Stones in 1969 or something like that.

They were treated really like rock stars, Sandoval and Musk. Let us
face it. There is a certain underdog mentality here in Nevada, right? We
are up against Texas and California. Look. We landed this. We got this
big Giga factory. We should be celebrating.

HAYES: And, of course, this is the kind of thing every politician --
a kind of event every politician salivates over, right? It is a new
factory. It is a bunch of jobs. It looks like it is going to be decent
paying job, $25 an hour. It is a cutting edge company that is growing.
Just hit an all-time stock price. But, there is something profoundly
perverse about running essentially an auction between five different states
to see how much money they can throw at you.

And, you know, $1.25 billion, this is in the now top ten of all-time
tax incentive deals in the entire country. The top being Boeing got $8.7
billion from Washington. So, you wonder, like, is there going to be buyers
remorse if this does not work out the way that the Governor promised it

RALSTON: Well, listen. You cannot blame Musk at all. He played all
the states, as you said. And, what is interesting about Nevada, there is a
lot of people, smart people, Chris, who think that Nevada was going to get
this all along. We are the only state that has an active lithium mind.

Nevada was willing to do things no other state was willing to do. We
did not give them the best incentive package. In fact, at one point, he
was asking, I understand, Musk for $500 million in cash upfront. I guess
Sandoval said, no to that because that is --


HAYES: Just think about that for a second. Think about that for a
second. America, land of free market capitalism, up by your bootstraps.
Like think about how bizarre and inverted this is, this entire process.

RALSTON: Well, of course it is. And, of course, you will hear people
argue, listen, the incentives are worth it because we are not really giving
them all those tax breaks, because there will be no tax to abate if they
were not here. But listen, I live here. I have lived here for almost 30
years, Chris. This is a state that dramatically underfunds education.
Does not pay enough attention to social services. Does not fund
infrastructure properly.

I think people would like to see people giving standing ovations when
they announce some visionary plan to take care of those needs. That is the
issue for a lot of people. This could end up being the economic boone that
the Governor says. There is a couple other components to this, real


RALSTON: Is the renewable energy component. And, Harry Reid has
talked about this. You know, Musk is obviously a big renewable guy. We
are a huge place for renewables here. And, alone, Nevada, highest
geothermal percentage in the country. I think that is a very, very
significant aspect of this.

We also have something no other state has, which is interesting here.
They are going to talk about this at the special session next week. We
have performance-based incentive plans. They have to do certain things to
get any of this money, and the speaker of the assembly who is a democrat --

HAYES: Interesting.

RALSTON: -- who is a democrat very outspoken about such things is
going to insist that those performance-based benchmarks be placed right in
the bill that is going to be written for Tesla.

HAYES: I see. So, the idea being that the money and the tax credits
and the packages that have been put together will be contingent on some
benchmarks, so you do not have a situation in which they decide, "Oh! It
turns out, we actually only need 1,000 people to run this factory. We will
still take that $1.2 billion."

RALSTON: Right. Exactly.

HAYES: Jon Ralston, thanks a lot.

RALSTON: You bet.

HAYES: We all think that we are done with segregation in this
country, but maybe it just looks different. Two glaring examples, ahead.


HAYES: "The New York Times" this week, Historian Heather Cox
Richardson called for the GOP to bring back the party of Lincoln. Writing,
quote, "Abraham Lincoln and others recoil from the idea of government as a
prop for the rich. They highlighted the equality of opportunity promised
in the declaration of independence and warned that a healthy economy
depended on widespread prosperity."

And, as Jonathan Chait pointed out in New York" Magazine, it is not
likely the Republican Party can return to the ideals of Lincoln considering
that, quote, "Alliance between the white south and Republican Party has
grown more firm than ever."

As for evidence as to why that is the case, look at South Carolina,
where there is a race going on for the open Lieutenant Governor seat,
between Democrat Bakari Sellers, who according to South Carolina state
newspaper, could become the first African-American elected to that post
since reconstruction.

And, his opponent, Henry McMaster, former U.S. attorney and South
Carolina Attorney General. Sellers has challenged McMaster yesterday to,
quote, "Permanently renounce his membership from a historically all white
country club." McMaster, according to his campaign manager has no plans to
resign from the Forest Lake Club, where he has been a member for more than
30 years.

Now, that the club has no policies of racial discrimination, and
McMaster would not be a member if it did. And, joining me now is, Bakari
Sellers, democratic candidate for Lieutenant Governor of South Carolina.
Mr. Sellers, as I understand this, this is a club that was once officially
an all-white club, is no longer as a matter of policy. So, what is wrong
with being a member?

for me -- and, first, thank you for having me, Mr. Hayes. For me, this is
not about the club per se. But, this is about breaking away from the ghost
and the themes of yesterday. Moving South Carolina forward.

I tell people all the time, my race is not about what South Carolina
was, not about what South Carolina is, but what South Carolina can be.
And, I simply asked my opponent to join me in renouncing his membership in
a club that currently has no African-American members. It does have some
African-Americans on a quote/unquote, "Waiting list." But to join me in
renouncing his membership, and let us just go forward.

HAYES: But, wait a second. It sounds like --

SELLERS: I am not trying to interject race into this. I am trying to
move it forward. I am sorry --

HAYES: If you are saying that it is not about history, I mean it
seems to me that the history is what is germane here it terms of what the
symbolism of this club it means. The fact that he has been a member there
for 30 years. He was a member there, apparently, according to reporting in
a local paper, back in 2008, had a deed that restricted it to whites only
membership, that it is about history and it is about race.

SELLERS: Well, you know, Mr. Hayes, for me, I like to look forward.
I like to believe in what Abraham Lincoln called the better angels of our
nature. For me, I am trying to move South Carolina forward. I want to
have a community and place where we can talk about how we improve and
prepare our children for 21st century global economy and improve our
crumbling infrastructure.

And, I just want Mr. McMaster to join me and thinking about ideas to
move forward. And, yes, I challenged him to renounce his membership,
because I want people to be able to look at South Carolina and see that we
are elevating our discussion. That we are raising the stature of our
state, that we no longer have to be held back by those ghosts of yesterday.

HAYES: Do you think the politics in South Carolina have changed
considerably considerably? It seems to me that there is been a tremendous
change in North Carolina. North Carolina is a very different state for a
whole bunch of historical reasons in terms of what its big cash crop was
and also what it is been recently in terms of an influx from the north.
Are the politics in South Carolina changing, too?

SELLERS: I believe so. I mean, look Mr. Hayes, I am 29 years old. I
have been elected for eight years. I am running for Lieutenant Governor,
because I believe this is a great state. I have been traveling the state
the last 14 months, shaking hands and asking people for votes.

You know, I really believe that on November 4th we can make history.
And, I am sorry that I believe in words like hope and truth and love and
justice and peace. And, I believe South Carolina believes if those words,
too. I hope that carries me over the finish line.

HAYES: Well, I think everyone believes in those words, Mr. Sellers.

SELLERS: I hope so. And, I believe that -- I believe that those
beliefs will carry me over the finish line. I am excited about where we
are, and I know this is going to be an uphill battle. It is a David versus
Goliath journey. We know that.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. The club in question, Forest Lake Club,
Am I right that one of the managing partners at your law firm is a member?

SELLERS: Correct.

HAYES: Have you told him he should quit?

SELLERS: Well, as we illustrated in the article and everyone who
asked, I said, he is not running for Lieutenant Governor. And, I tried to
take a step back and say that this is not about the club per se, but this
about everything that symbolizes. It is about those ghosts that have
really just binded our state.

This is about trying to break free of those shackles and have a
conversation about the future of South Carolina. I love my boss to death.
I mean we have conversations all the time. But, he is not running for
Lieutenant Governor. I mean if he was, we would be having similar
discussions today.

HAYES: 29 years old. Why did you decide to run for Lieutenant
Governor now?

SELLERS: I think we have an awesome opportunity. I mean, like, as I
said, I have been in the general assembly for the past eight years and
South Carolina has not been moving forward even slowly, but it has been
stagnant. Our quarter shame that we have here has metastasize. We have
hospitals that are closing down. We have children who are dying in the
department of social services. If somebody does not stand up and scream
from the mountaintops that it is time for a change, if not me, then who?
If not now, then when?

HAYES: Bakari Sellers, candidate for Lieutenant Governor in South
Carolina. Thank you very much.

SELLERS: Thank you.

HAYES: What happens when you do not have any diversity? Next.


HAYES: The August economist magazine, a weekly British institution of
intellect and class dating back to 1843 has apologized today for a book
review it ran. That -- well, if it was not exactly a pro slavery book
review, it was kind of an anti-anti-slavery book review.

The review in it`s latest issue in the forthcoming book "The Half Has
Never Been Told: Slavery And The Making Of American Capitalism" by Cornell
historian Edward Baptist read. And, I, quote, "Mr. Baptist has not written
an objective history of slavery. Almost all the blacks in the book are
victims. Almost all the whites villains. This is not history. It is
advocacy." Otherwise, economist criticizing the author for lack of balance
in his book about slavery.

Now, the original review, which did not have bylined has been taken
down and replaced with an apology, which reads in part, "We regret having
published this and apologize for having done so." This is the kind of
thing that happens when white people fair to clear the major obstacle of
having an intelligent conversation about race, which is having that
conversation with people who are not white.

Joining me now, Jelani Cobb, Contributor to "New Yorker" and Associate
Professor of history, director of the institute for African-American
studies at University of Connecticut. And, Jay Smooth, Video Director at and video multimillion producer at Race Forward. You
should check out Ill Doctrine, if you have not.

So, the first thought we are having in that term, this only, like --
and we were looking at the editors at the "economist" who as far as we can
tell appear to be all white. They might not be. I do not know. But, just
how did this get through? And this is such an old idea. I mean, this is
like an idea from back in reconstruction days in the first
historeographical battle over slavery about the happy slaves.

UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT: That is right. The Dunning School of
historiography about slavery and the reconstruction and so on and what
exactly it meant. And, so, it is sad to see this, but it is not exactly
surprising. There is a long historiographic tradition of writing about
slavery as if it were once some sort of collaborative effort.

You know, there are people who would describe slavery as paternalistic
and institution in which black people largely benefited and white people
were largely been deficit, kind of bestowals of western civilization. And,
that has not entirely died out.

HAYES: Right.

COBB: We are looking at now, a few months ago, in Texas, where we are
trying to remove the word slave from slave trade. So, it would be just a
triangular trade, as people could have been trading tobacco or food stock,
you know? As opposed to human beings. So, this is not isolated. It may
seem egregious. It may seem ridiculous. It may even seem laughable, but
it is certainly not isolated.

HAYES: But, it is also a lesson about like what it means to have
diversity in the media, I think, which is something that, you know,
everyone is talking about a lot. Most people fail at. I do not even think
we are where we should be. But, that is what you get when you do not have

same psychological phenomenon you see with someone justifying being in an
all-white club.

HAYES: That is right.

SMOOTH: You know, only a bad person would be racist. If I am a good
person, I obtain the status of never having to think about racism and I go
through life passively assuming I am not racist. So, you let an unjust
status quo perpetuate all around you --

HAYES: That is right.

SMOOTH: Now, one of the ways you see this is this bizarre lack of
perspective in the "economist" piece.

HAYES: There is this data that came out -- I was thinking about
segregation, what was fascinating about the all white club segregation
story, is that it is not an all white club by deed anymore. It is not
officially an all-white code. It does not officially segregated. But,
America is very segregated even if not legally segregated.

There is this fascinating data in the public religion research
institute, 75 percent of white Americans report the network of people with
whom they discuss important matters is entirely white with no minority
presence. 65 percent of black Americans report on a social network that is
composed entirely of people who are also black. How troubled should we be
by the social segregation of America?

COBB: Right. So, part of this -- this has implications beyond this.
We think we say, "Oh, well, I just happen to not have any black friends.
It happens to not have any friends of a different ethnic or racial group
and it just happens to be my life." It actually has implications beyond
this. When people are talking about, who do you hire? This happens all
the time. Oh, we have not met any qualified black people. You do not know
any black people.

HAYES: Right.

COBB: And, so having that conversation, then it is going to continue
to kind of replicate itself in that way. And, so just on that level of
social networks, the other level of kind of when something like Ferguson
happens. If you do not have access to a person who can say, no, the way
that you may have experienced policing is fundamentally different than the
way that people of color experienced policing in this country, you wind up
with, you know, what we have here.

HAYES: Well, there was a fascinating, I forgot who wrote about this,
about the difference between Twitter and Facebook during Mike Brown and it
had to do with the sort of density of highly kind of racially segregated
social networks in which Twitter was Mike Brown, Mike Brown and they are
talking about on Facebook, it was A.L.S. Challenge, Ice Bucket Challenge,
Ice Bucket Challenge. And, it just hit home to them the fact there is this
kind of divided world in which these two different conversations are

SMOOTH: Yes. I mean, I think that people, white people -- some white
people, because not generalizing about all white people is the most
important thing you can do in any race discussion.


SMOOTH: We have learned. They have a tendency to assume --

HAYES: They. There comes the, they.


SMOOTH: Some of they have a tendency to assume that the measure of
whether I am a good egalitarian person is whether I am past having to be
mindful of my connection to history, and my place in the world. Any racism
that I did not personally create, you are maligning. You are impugning my
status as a good person by suggesting I have to be aware of my place in the
system and that leads to all sorts of on obliviousness. The extension of
striving to be color blind and objective blind.

HAYES: Right. Then this question also about the intimate connection
that people make whether there are romantic connections, friendship
connections, is it fair to judge someone for the racial makeup of their
social network?

COBB: Any other information, no. I mean -- I went to a historically
black university, and it has function -- I went to Howard University. And
it functioned then the way these institutions were set up to function,
which is that I have relied upon that network throughout my life since
then. But it was very clear, like, in the absence of there --

HAYES: I went to a historically white university.


COBB: We also kind of differentiate people who say historically black
and hysterically black. But, you know, in the absence of access to these
other broader networks, you have to create a network of your own that will
allow you to kind of move through the world in these ways.

HAYES: People talk about the Obama coalition, about the Millennial as
sort o rise in a lot of America. I always wonder, like, are we going to
see that born out in the data that the Facebook feeds -- are we going to
see there is going to be more cross pollination just at a social level in
America going forward.

SMOOTH: I mean I think our natural tendency is to perpetuate those
same divides if we are not cautiously actively trying to offset them. I
mean I know this from doing a hip hop radio show for 20 years. I do not
think as myself as someone who wants to exclude women from the circle --


SMOOTH: -- But, if I am not cautiously every week saying I need to
get female voices in, we are going to perpetuate that boy`s club in the
studio. So, it is not good enough to assume that I am good. You need to
practice being good.

HAYES: Jelani Cobb and Jay Smooth. Happy Friday. Great to have
you, guys.

COBB: Thanks.

HAYES: That is "All In" for this evening. "The Rachel Maddow Show"
starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.


<Copy: Content and programming copyright 2014 NBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Copyright 2014 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>

Sponsored links

Resource guide