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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, September 22, 2014

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September 22, 2014

Guest: Michael Shear, Steve Atkiss, Mike Pesca, Lindsey Snell, Valerie
Rockefeller Wayne, Ellen Dorsey, Tim Dechristopher


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight on ALL IN. Alarming new details about the man
who breached White House security. He had been arrested in July with a
cache of guns and a map of the White House circle. Tonight, more on the
intruder and how the secret service, let him get that far, then an NFL
owner under siege.

STEVE BISCIOTTI, RAVEN`S NFL OWNER: What`s obvious is that the majority of
the sources are people that work for Ray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The latest twist in the Ray Rice saga, plus an ALL IN
exclusive on the frontline of the war against ISIS.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s so dangerous, so be careful.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Inside the Syrian rebel group we are now funding. And a
day after the largest climate rally in history, protests keeps on going.
ALL IN starts right now.


CHRIS HAYES, ALL IN HOST: Good evening, from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. A
federal prosecutor called him a danger to the president. The man who
allegedly jumped the fence along Pennsylvania Avenue, immediately in to the
White House Friday night has been identified by authorities as, 42 year old
Iraq war veteran, Omar Gonzalez. In the court hearing today prosecutor
said, in addition to the small folding knife found on this person,
investigators found 800 rounds of ammunition, two hatchets and a machete in
Gonzales car. Washington post reporting today that, according to an
affidavit signed by a secret service officer, after his arrest Gonzales
told one agent, he was concerned that the "atmosphere was collapsing" and
that he needed to inform the president to get the word out to the people.
The judge ordered Gonzalez be held without bail after his next hearing --
October first. Gonzales was also arrested back in July, after leaving
Virginia state police in a high speed chase. State police found in his car
that time a mini-arsenal of 11 guns including two shotguns and four rifles,
some equipped with scopes and bipods that a sniper would use and "a map of
Washington, D.C., with writing and a line drawn to the White House."
According to prosecutors, Gonzalez was also stopped outside the White House
in August, after secret service officers noticed a hatchet in his
waistband. He was not arrested at that time. Even as prosecutors are laying
out their case against him, Gonzalez`s ex-wife is speaking out on his
behalf. Tony, Indiana NBC affiliate, Gonzalez had been diagnosed with
obsessive-compulsive disorder, schizophrenia and post traumatic stress
disorder. She described him as a great guy and she said he was not the same
after his second tour in Iraq.


SAMANTHA BELL, EX-WIFE OF OMAR GONZALEZ: "I want him to get treatment. He
doesn`t need to be punished. He didn`t go to the White House to hurt Obama.
. He`s not in his right mind. Who jumps the fence knowing you could get
shot and killed? Who tries to go and tell the president the atmosphere is
collapsing? Who does that? He did because he`s mentally unstable."


HAYES: Whatever prompted it, the incident has raised a lot of worry about
the security situation at the White House, As President Obama and his
family had left friends in just four minutes before Gonzalez made his way
inside the front door.


PETER KING, REP.NEW YORK: This is really hard to believe. This is clearly a
breakdown, a severe breakdown. I have great regard for the secret service,
but this should be the most basic of all protections to the president.

MIKE ROGERS, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIR: One of the biggest problems in a
static security force is, atrophy of concern. And I think what you have
seen is that they`re not doing their audits, their checks there, -- test
runs, to make sure the people are up to the right standard.

CHUCK SCHUMER, NEW YORK SENATOR: We will need a complete investigation,
explanation of what happened. But even more importantly, what steps they`re
going to take to make sure it doesn`t happen again.


HAYES: When the president himself was asked (inaudible) today, and he said
the secret service does a great job.


great job.


OBAMA: I am grateful for the sacrifices they make on my behalf, and my


HAYES: Joining me now, from the White House is NBC news White House
Correspondent Kristen Welker. Kristen, what is the atmosphere there like

you that there are more patrols along Pennsylvania Avenue, more
surveillance, the secret service expanding its investigation in light of
all of those revelations that you just mapped out that the suspect in this
case Omar Gonzalez, was known to law enforcement. So one of key question
here, how could this have happened particularly when we are told by law
enforcement officials that the secret service was aware of his criminal
past? The other big question is they`re trying to figure out, how this
could have happened when he jumped the fence he didn`t see the K-9 units
dispatched. That something Chris that typically happened when someone jumps
the fence that serves to stop someone in their track, that didn`t happen in
this case. So, the questions are why law enforcement officials want to know
if perhaps some secret service officials were out of position, because the
president had just departed for Camp David. Those are among the questions
that they`re trying to answer tonight. I can also tell you that one law
enforcement official says that, "The secret service is considering changing
the way tourists are able to see the White House and possibly setting up
security check points several blocks away from Pennsylvania Avenue. That
would be an unprecedented.


HAYES: That would be major.

WELKER: But of course, absolutely would be major. We should stress that is
something that is still under consideration, hasn`t happened yet, hasn`t
been approved yet. But of course, what happened on Friday night was
unprecedented, Chris. That is never happened before law makers outraged you
heard some of them there in those clips that you played. And I can tell you
that some of them are returning from their recess to hold hearings on this
to try to get to the bottom of exactly what happened. Chris?

HAYES: NBC news-White House Correspondent Kristen Welker, Thank you.
Joining me now, on the White House Correspondent for the New York Times,
Michael Shear. So, when this report first broke, Michael, I think a lot of
people said, "Oh, my Lord, he got into the White House?" It seems like a
pretty big deal, from your reporting, from inside this, is this seen as a
pretty big deal?

interesting thing is how it changed right? Initially, the secret service
was very much sort of playing this down as the another one of these kind of
fence jumping incidents that it happens every now and then even though, it
was more -- that he got further, he actually got in to the White House. But
I think today`s revelations, about all of the weapons and the problem of
how come the secret service, when they had him a few weeks ago outside the
White House with a machete, or with the hatchet sorry. How come they didn`t
link that to all of the weapons that he had been arrested with and that map
of the White House with a circle drawn around it, how come they didn`t link
those two things together and do something to prevent it. Because that
probably could have stopped this from happening if they put those things

HAYES: It also seemed like the secret service has not had a great 18
months, two years. I mean, we`ve seen several scandals, of course the
infamous one (ph) with sex workers down in South America. Do you think it
really shake out to the secret service? It is -- I`m wondering if we`re
seeing a little tip of an iceberg of an institution actually, is going
through something that is not very good.

SHEAR: Well, look I mean -- they are the first ones to remind folks that
the things you don`t see are the successes. The Things that are prevented -
- the problems that are prevented every day, they`re up in New York. The
secret service is protecting not only the president and the first lady, but
also all the hundred and forty visiting worlds leaders that are coming for
the United Nations general assembly. They do a lot that never goes wrong,
that we never sort to see. But I do think that this one has the potential
to be little bit more serious, some drunk agents in a hotel room, which at
the end of the day might be a problem, but it isn`t as serious, as a guy
who managed to get into the White House after having you know, evidence of
an awful lot of weaponry and maybe some ill intent.

HAYES: And quickly, finally, I`m amazed that this guy was not shot
actually. And it seems, in some ways are triumph of the training of the
secret service even though obviously, they are being -- you know, blamed
for allowing getting that far, that they were able to subdue him without
firing a weapon is that how they are trained to respond?

SHEAR: Well, I think they are trained to have some restraint, and if you
talk to them, they really do feel this dual mission of protecting the
president but also keeping the White House kind of an open place for
tourist serve are willing to see the people`s house by walking right in
front of the gates and that`s not going to be, enhance by having bullets
lying around that all the time. So, they do have that restraints, and the
question really is, was the -- did the restraint go too far this time in
letting somebody get as far as he got.

HAYES: New York Times White House Correspondent Michael Shear. Thanks

SHEAR: Sure.

HAYES: Joining me now, Steve Atkiss, a former special assistant to the
president for operations at the White House, he acted as the central point
of contact in the White House in the secret service from 2001 and 2006. And
Steve, it strikes me the president`s defense of the secret service today
where a lot people seem quite angry at him for the incident. I mean, the
last people that you could you throw under the bus, if it is the president
of the United States, is the secret service?

STEVE ATKISS, PARTNER, COMMAND CONSULTING: Sure, yeah. The president knows
the truth, which is that the secret service is the very best agency in the
United States and in the world, at providing protection to our government
leaders and to their facilities. One of the great things about the secret
service is they are very eager to learn every time there is a mistake of
whatever magnitude. So, certainly, when you have something on the order,
like an assassination attempt, if you take the Ronald Reagan assassination
attempt, that produces a change in the way that they do their business. And
they look for these incidents, they try to diagnose them and figure out
what went wrong, and our very eager and adapt the way they do business to
take those lessons into account.

HAYES: One of the reasons I want to talk to you is you work -- you did not
work for the secret service, you work for the president -- but you were
interfacing with them and it strikes me that -- that must be a complicated
negotiation. Because, from a security perspective, right? There are a lot
of things that you`d like to say no to. That from a political perspective
either, Kennedy wants to do, where he want to go to a restaurant, they want
to go out, or just an optics perspective, I mean you could presumably put a
20 foot concrete barrier in front of the White House, but that would not
fly politically.

ATKISS: No, that`s exactly right. It`s exactly what Michael just said as
well. The secret service has to do this very difficult mission in the
context of other values aside from security that exist and where the
magnifying glass is especially intent at the White House. And so,
certainly, if we want to turn downtown to Washington into an armed camp, if
we want to make sure that no one is ever able to get close enough to do
something like, getting across the fencing, getting to the first guard post
inside the door, we can accomplish that. But, what that`s going to mean is
that we`re going to be limiting people`s access to the White House grounds,
to the area surrounding the White House grounds and the secret service has
to accomplish their mission in the context of American values that value
freedom and open us.

HAYES: You were in the White House after in 2001-2006 after 9/11. And I
wonder were there arguments, where their fears to bait to ever point to
disagree back and forth about striking that precise balance?

ATKISS: We had a very positive and constructive relationship with the
secret service, where we sought to understand what their concerns were,
they sought to understand what we`re trying to accomplish with the
president`s agenda and we were always trying to find the balance between
doing what we want to do. Whether it is -- president travel around the
world or physically at the White House in a way that they were comfortable
kept him safe as possible.

HAYES: Steve Atkiss, a former special assistant to the president for
operations at the White House, Thank you. All right, up next, the Baltimore
Ravens pushed back hard against an ESPN report, alleging misdirection by
the team saying the sources have an agenda to get Ray Rice back in the NFL.


BISCIOTTI: They are building a case for reinstatement. And the best way to
build a case for reinstatement is to make everybody else look like they`re


HAYES: On ESPN responded to that. That`s ahead.


HAYES: Major event this weekend, MSNBC will air the first ever live
broadcast of the global citizen`s festival with performances from the CAS
(ph) the roots, Alicia Keys, No Doubt, Thon, and Kerri Underwood and Jay-Z.
I`ll be there, not raping along with Jay-Z but, in Central Park alongside
Alice Wagner, from MSNBC live coverage of the concert to end extreme
poverty, starting at 3:00 P.M. on Saturday. It`s going to be epic. Don`t
miss it. But, first, tonight, this is what`s happening by Wall Street right


HAYES: These are live pictures from Northern Manhattan of the latest on the
ongoing protest to highlight corporate America`s role climate change,


HAYES: Baltimore Ravens is a pushed back hard against a block buster report
from ESPN, first report here on Friday night, allegedly in pattern of
misinformation and misdirection by the team in NFL. In connection with the
handling of the Ray Rice domestic violence investigation, ESPN reported
that an Atlantic city police officer had described in detail the contents
of the now-infamous video showing Rice striking his now wife inside a
casino elevator to the Raven`s head of security, who then relayed the
disturbing videos play-by-play to team executives, long before it was made
public. Today, a Raven`s police detailed respond to ESPN story, which the
team claimed is full of errors and inaccuracies and false assumptions. And
Raven`s on Steve Bisciotti, held a press conference in which he questioned
the motives of ESPN`s sources.


BISCIOTTI: What`s obvious is that the majority of the sources are people
that work for Ray. Almost everything in there is anonymous, but it`s clear
from the subject matter that it`s Ray`s attorney, it`s ray`s agent, and
it`s ray`s friends. You know, they are building a case for reinstatement.
And the best way to build a case for reinstatement is to make everybody
else look like they`re lying.


HAYES: Investigative reporter, Don Van Natta, who co-wrote the story
appeared on the ESPN, shortly after and rebutted that claim. And others
today by the Ravens` saying the story was source in part to be with in the
NFL as well as the Raven`s organization itself. During that our Mike Pesca,
who`s in Slate Magazine, Daily Park has suggest. The Bisciotti performance
was about as impressive as Goodell`s performance, which is I say not
particularly impressive. What did you make of them sort of doubling down

MIKE PESCA, THE GIST PODCAST HOST: Well, I`ve got to say, when I came on
your show, Chris, and I was wearing a blazer and unbutton shirt and jeans,
I thought I was maybe under-dressed for the occasion, exactly how Bisciotti
wore for his press conference.


PESCA: Maybe about a little bit (inaudible) as a topic. I think that he was
--that he has been called less stiff and more humane than Goodell. And I
think, Goodell exact -- he acted exactly like a person whose massive
fortune relied on the whims of a very rich man, and Bisciotti acted like a
very rich man, he was a little, he joked a time inappropriately, I think he
was less stiff. But the most striking thing is that the reason for the
press conference is to rebut an ESPN story, as suppose to talk about the
Raven`s huge change of heart and the Raven`s realization on how to deal
with domestic violence and anything of substance.

HAYES: And the whole thing now is exploding into this kind of war of all
against all. Everyone else is trying to throw someone else on the bus, so
you seeing some of the NFL folks or now talking to reporters saying, "Well
the team is handling as well." The team is saying the NFL in held up, Ray
Rice, who is petitioning for reinstatement, right? And this Bisciotti
saying, has a motivation to basically tell all he knows about it right?
Because, he`s got nothing left to lose.

PESCA: I don`t think that NFL is actually as Machiavellian as to be able to
pull this off, though they`d like to, which is to change the conversation
from what it should be, to this element of palace intrigue. And you know
what? It really doesn`t matter if Roger Goodell saw the tape or not. I
mean, if he did, he will be out of the job, but I don`t think he will be
able to prove it. And it really doesn`t matter if ESPN got a detail wrong
or Ray Rice`s perception of why Bisciotti offered him a job for life. That
does not matter. What matter is they`re still not getting the domestic
violence things right, because the things they say to clear themselves, I
feel invite (ph) themselves. But, there`s whole difference between well, a
punch and a slap if it comes from (inaudible)

HAYES: The original sin here right? Is Ray Rice is arrested for domestic
violence, he get -- he pleased he gets two games, people out Ray right? And
then the video -- internal video comes out and they said, "Well, we didn`t
quite know it was this bad." And now there`s this debate about didn`t he
telling me slap this -- than fianc‚e` or punch her like guys.

PESCA: It seems to be a huge debate within the Raven`s organization. In
fact, everything seems to hinge on the debate, slap versus punch. It`s
crazy to me and I guess.

HAYES: Yes, exactly.

PESCA: I guess maybe, I don`t understand the parts of society that also
think that`s important, too. It`s obviously playing to some demographic
whether like, well, if it was a slap, maybe he should have gotten 4 games,
that`s insane to me.

HAYES: Yeah, and there`s interesting -- one of the stories emerged here as
well, people are still watching the games. There`s a great post like Derek
Thompson in Atlantic today, shows TV ratings of the top ten rated network
shows, first, prime time football and it`s just bananas, right? Network
shows falling off a cliff, football going up, and what I found was so
interesting was it`s 76 percent of those -- that growth in the ratings
since 2009 comes from women viewers. So a huge trunk of what is this
massive revenue game for not just the NFL but for all these TV networks is
coming from women viewers.

PESCA: Yeah, and the NFL talks about women in the context of there are the
decision makers in the household. They control the per strings (ph).

HAYES: You know, the camera was not on me, so people couldn`t see my epic
eye roll, that I just roll in my eyes.

PESCA: The NFL just keeps making and minting money. The (inaudible) with
the NFL to keep their fortunes capital, I don`t think that`s going to
change. But I think -- why deny people their entertainment. Just get the
moral component of it close to right, not horrifically wrong.

HAYES: I also think they`re under more threat of people turning away than I
think they realize. Mike Pesca of the Gist, thanks so much.

PESCA: You`re Welcome.

HAYES: All right, coming up, one day after Commissioner Roger Goodell
announced a new long term partnership with the National Domestic Violence
Hotline. I visited their headquarters in Austin.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`ve had a rough year. So this is a-- it`s huge deal.
This is -- this is game-changing.


HAYES: Visit inside the National Domestic Violence Hotline, ahead.


HAYES: The National Domestic Violence Hotline located in Austin, Texas, the
video of Ray Rice punching his then fianc‚e Janay Palmer has changed
everything. It`s hard to imagine any good coming out of that horrible act
of violence. The people who run the National Domestic Violence Hotline will
now receive more funding, and more visibility, for the issue they have
dedicated their lives to.


HAYES: So, there are these statistics that say, you know, since (inaudible)
domestic violence has gotten better. Do you think it`s gotten better?

similar to the way the race relations for America have gotten better since
the Civil Rights Act where there have been seen a lot of progress, but
there`s also a lot more to be done.

HAYES: The National Domestic Violence Hotline sounds like a big operation.
You`ll hear TV show after TV show directing people to call.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can call the National Domestic Violence Hotline.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here`s the number for the National Domestic Violence

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`d say call the hotline.

HAYES: In reality, the hotline is 15-20 people sitting in a room in Austin
taking calls. How does it work, just logistically? A call comes in what
happens next?

BARRETT: A call comes in. We have a board that lights up if there`s an
advocate available at that moment, they raise their phone and they answer
it not knowing who`s going to be on that line, who`s going to take each
one. National Domestic Violence Hotline, how can I help you?

HAYES: Maisha Barrett has been an advocate at the hotline for two years.
She watched, two weeks ago, as everything suddenly changed.

UNDEINTIFIED FEMALE: There is new out rage this morning over Ray Rice two-
game suspension from the NFL as new surveillance video has emerge appearing
to the moment that Rice punches then fianc‚e leaving her unconscious.

BARRETT: When the Ray Rice story broke, the top left shows how many calls
are waiting and it was 13, 14 calls waiting for 20 or 30 minutes with every
single advocate here on a call.

HAYES: For days, the video of Ray Rice punching his then fianc‚e Janay
Palmer played on a loop in TV screens across the country. From your
perspective, someone who works just with survivors, what do you think about
showing that tape?

BARRETT: I understand feeling conflicted about that. I think a lot of us
felt conflicted about that, too, because that was a really tragic moment in
her life being played out on national television for people to dissect and
put their opinion in and nobody asked her if that was OK. At the same time,
it also started a really big conversation and hopefully some major change
is going on right now.

HAYES: Stories of violence poured in. And the number of calls coming into
the hotline overwhelmed their limited resources. Barrett says the National
Domestic Violence Hotline, which was created by the Violence against Women
Act almost 20 years ago, has never been fully funded.

ROGER GOODELL, NFL COMMISSIONER: Thank you all for coming today.

HAYES: But on Friday, the hotline`s funding fortunes changed courtesy of
Roger Goodell and the NFL.

GOODELL: To begin, we`ve entered into a long term partnership with two
leading national organizations. The National Domestic Violence Hotline and
the National Sexual Violence Resource Center, the hotline received an 84
percent increase in their call volume just last week. They did not have the
resources to reach even half of those calls.

HAYES: For the National Domestic Violence Hotline, the announcement was a
game changer.

BARRETT: It`s a huge deal. This is really going to -- we`re going to be
able to help a lot of people with this money.

HAYES: Today, the National Domestic Violence Hotline could be fully funded
for the first time in its history. It took a horrific moment of domestic
violence in an Atlantic City hotel and the worst NFL public relations
crisis in decades to get there.


HAYES: We`ve heard from the folks of National Domestic Violence Hotline
that just over the weekend, they`ve hired some new staffers. And just in a
few days, they`ve been able to take their percentage of calls. They can
actually take from 50 percent to 55 percent, that`s just in a few days. All
right. Up next, as the president prepares to make his case for united
military action against ISIS to the U.N. this week, we take an exclusive
look from inside Syria at the Syrian rebels the U.S. has agreed to arm.
That`s next.


HAYES: The effort to stop ISIS from recruiting foreign fighters around the
globe will be the center piece for President Obama`s trip to the U.N.
General Assembly this week, taking off tomorrow here in New York.

In the background briefing this morning, senior White House officials told
reporters 15,000 foreign fighters from 80 countries are flowing in and out
of Iraq and Syria to fight with ISIS and other militant groups. We have no
way of confirming those numbers.

And, among the hundred plus Americans the government is aware of, some have
returned to the U.S. and are now under surveillance, again, according to
those unnamed officials. On top of that, NBC News reports at least eight
Americans have been arrested allegedly on their way to join militant
factions in Syria.

Stopping the flow of ISIS recruits will be the subject of a special U.N.
Security Council Session on Wednesday chaired by President Obama, himself,
in pushing a binding resolution requiring member states to put in place a
legal framework to prosecute those who join ISIS or send them help.

While in New York, President Obama will also meet for the first time with
Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi who is new, supposedly more inclusive
government is a key part of the U.S. strategy to rally regional support
against ISIS. While U.S. airstrikes appeared to have stopped the extremist
march for Baghdad, ISIS continued to gain ground this weekend in Syria
where attacks in the north sent over 130,000 Syrian Kurds fleeing over in
the border into Turkey.

U.N. Officials telling "New York Times," it is one of the greatest refugee
flows since the start of the Syrian Civil War. And, yet another reminder
the threat the wars in Syria and Iraq pose to stability in the entire
region, not just those countries, and the challenge confronting the, quote,
"Moderate Opposition," which the Obama administration now has congressional
approval to arm and train. Well, a lot of questions remain about who those
fighters are and whether they are reliable allies, Secretary of State John
Kerry says, he is confident in our ability to sort it all out.


JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We have been working now with the
free Syrian Army for several years. I mean you have had a pretty active
debate about arming, not arming and so forth. The debates have been in
Washington, too. The fact is that we have gotten very good at knowing who
they are at vetting. We have been doing 20 years of vetting now.


HAYES: Partners of vocative went inside Syria with a unit of the free-
Syrian army. Here is the report.



SEPTEMBER 11, 2014





UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Now we are going to the hot points, hot
clashes area with ISIS -- against ISIS.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): It is so dangerous. So, be careful.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Quickly Lindsey. We are targeted with
tanks now. We need to go fast.













UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): There is a lot of foreign fighters. We are
talking about American, Saudi, Egyptian. We saw them.




dead body of an American. We also found the American militant`s passport.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Douglas McCain and some of his group
sneaked to our heavy weapon. They killed three good fighters. Then our
people killed all ISIS. They searched their pockets to find something.
They find that passport in his pocket.

LINDSEY SNELL, VOCATIVE PRODUCER: Does it surprise you that Americans are
coming to fight?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): No. It is not a surprise thing. Every one
in the world is fighting here in Syria. Your government knows there are
Americans fighting here in Syria.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): Across the border in Syria, we have ramped
up out military assistance to the Syrian opposition.

SNELL: Obama had a speech. And, for the first time, he said that Assad
was a terrorist and he wants to support the FSA and the opposition. What
do you think about that?

ABU KAKA, FSA SOLDIER: Yes. Look, in Syria, we do not take any
consideration for Obama or anyone who speaks for us because we know that it
is just talking.

SNELL: How old they both are?

KAKA: This is my brother.

SNELL: How old is he?

KAKA: He is 17 years old.

SNELL: He is young.

KAKA: 17 years. Yes -- but, it seems as if very young. He is fighting
since six months with us. In other places, even women are fighting with us
because it is death or life revolution.




ABO AHMAD, FSA COMMANDER: This is a mortar and mortar missiles factory.
Everything here is self-made. These are the missiles. The missile is
poured into an oven, then shaped. Then a detonator is attached along with
a propellant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Syrian people`s future is fighting. We do
not care for promises or presidents` word to help the Syrian people. No.
We are sure that we will stay fighting.


`HAYES: Joining me now is the producer of that piece, who spent six days
in Syria with the free Syrian army, Lindsey Snell. Great piece of
reporting, Lindsey. Thank you for that.


HAYES: There is no way that kid is 17. I am sorry. I mean I was not
there. You were there, he said he is 17, but that does not look like a 17-

SNELL: No, it does not. I would say 12, 13, maybe.

HAYES: Were there a lot of young fighters?

SNELL: There were. There were quite an abundance of, I guess you would
say, child soldiers.

HAYES: It was interesting to me that he, at some level, knew that if in
fact he was not telling the truth about the age of that kid, which I cannot
verify, but in fact that he would say 17 because there is some sense in
which like, "Yes, they are not real big on child soldiers in America."

SNELL: Yes, they know.

HAYES: The Free Syrian Army is a phrase that we are using to sort of talk
about the moderate opposition. What does that mean on the ground? Is that
a meaningful phrase on the ground?

SNELL: It is, but it is a huge umbrella, different factions, different
groups of different factions. So, it is sort of an overarching term for
everyone who is fighting in the opposition.

HAYES: OK. So, there is like a big coalition -- I mean these guys call
themselves the Jaish Al Mujahideen, which literally means army of the holy

SNELL: It does, yes.


HAYES: So, I mean, the point is that, it seems to me, from the reporting I
have read and the people I have talked to that have been sort of there,
that everyone in there -- there is not really a secular opposition in any
real way?

SNELL: There is not. They are all conservative Muslim, they are. But,
they are reasonable. They are reasonable.

HAYES: There is a facility where they are actually making their munitions.
How does that even work?

SNELL: They have come to use everything around them, gas tanks, parts of
cars, just everything that you could think to make their own weapons
because they have been so under armed for so long.

HAYES: I thought the last line from that guy was chilling because he
basically saying like, "Yes, you help us. You do not help us." There is
this sense from the people that I have talked to around this war that it is
just going to drag on. That basically war as far as I can see and the
entire society that has just become a wartime society. Is that how it felt

SNELL: Yes. And, the people are very downtrodden. They are prepared to
fight until the death, and they will, but they are very downtrodden at this

HAYES: And, they do not seem to think particularly optimistic that
American help is going to turn their side. And, they also seem like they
are still focused on Assad, right? I mean, ISIS is secondary to what they
want, which is to get rid of Assad.

SNELL: Absolutely. And, Assad has greater fire power. He is the planes.
He has the helicopters. He is dropping the barrel bombs.

HAYES: Yes. It is interesting to see ISIS put out a statement today in
which they are talking about the moral abomination of Assad`s barrel bombs.
It is like a real head snapping moment. Lindsey Snell, Producer of
Vocative. Thank you very much.

SNELL: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up, they are the most famous oil family in history. And,
yet, today, the Rockefellers are shifting away from fossil fuel. One of
them joins us to explain next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: John D. Rockefeller was the richest man in
America. He was a man who created the Standard Oil Trust. He was the man
who more than anybody else, made the modern American economy.


HAYES: A family that has been a well-known force in America for more than
a century and whose wealth was founded in oil, standard oil, made an
announcement today that grabbed headlines, as it should. The Rockefeller
Family of all people is divesting a major portion of its wealth from fossil

It is $860 million philanthropic organization, the Rockefeller Brothers
Fund. And it joins more than 800 other philanthropies and investors today
in announcing a $50 billion fossil fuel divestment one day before the big
united nation`s climate summit.

Joining me now, The chair of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, Valerie
Rockefeller Wayne and Ellen Dorsey, Executive Director of Wallace Global
Fund and creator of Divest-Invest Philanthropy coalition of 17 foundation.
All right. Valerie, I will start with you.


HAYES: Why did you make this decision? And, I am sure you are aware of
the epic, cataclysmic irony in all of this?

WAYNE: Well, we like to see it as an irony and an opportunity. And, it is
a very careful process the Rockefeller Brothers Fund just gone through,
because we want to do this responsibly, but it is very much aligned with
our mission. It is over half of our grant making as in sustainable

And, we have been in this field, as have many, generations of Rockefellers
actually in preserving the environment. So, this was just naturally a next
step for us in aligning our endowment with out grant making.

HAYES: So, you are going to pull money out of investments in Fossil fuels?
That is the idea here.

WAYNE: We are virtually out, entirely, already of coal and out of tar
sands. And, we are looking at alternative energy investments remainder.

HAYES: Ellen, this is -- the Rockefeller Brothers Fund is one of a bunch
of philanthropies that are doing this. There has been a big movement to
divest in fossil fuels; universities, some religious bodies, now
philanthropies. My big question Ellen is, is this symbolism or is this
actually going to attack investment.

There is so much money out there floating around and it is like water. It
finds a way. So, OK, you do gooders are going to take your money out of
tar sands, but there is always going to be someone who is going to put
money into it.

all, I think that the intent is not to have an immediate impact,
financially, on the fossil fuel companies. But, over time, it will
absolutely have an impact on the fossil fuel companies. And, the invest
side of the equation -- because this is not just about divesting from
fossil fuels --

HAYES: Right.

DORSEY: -- but, also, investing in climate solutions. The invest side of
the equation will be capitalizing the solutions. Capitalizing the future,
the new energy, the economy, we need. Together, they are signaling the
market. So, I believe this is a political movement. I believe that this
is a financial movement and that it is having impacts on the financial
sector already now.

HAYES: Did you know -- I imagine when this issue starts to percolate,
right? Obviously, you guys are managing a very large endowment and it has
probably got investments and a lot of stuff. Is it just a logistical
matter like, "How much fossil fuels we are actually we in?"

WAYNE: It has taken a lot of study. And, so we committed the board of the
Rockefeller Brothers Fund in 2010 to devote up to 10 percent of our
endowment in alternative investments. And, so we have been at it for
several years. There are a lot of exciting opportunities. But, we also
want to do this extremely transparently and extremely thoughtfully.

We like to think back to John D. Rockefeller, Sr. and the source of that
wealth. We would not exactly use all of his methods. But we do believe,
as he did, in the innovative and looking always to the future but also
watching the bottom line. So, we are doing this --

HAYES: But, that stuff came out of the ground. You are standing here
right now and it is amazing, right?


HAYES: That stuff came out of the ground. People do not understand this
about the United States of America. We were Saudi Arabia before Saudi
Arabia, right? I mean --

WAYNE: But, before oil --


WAYNE: We got the oil from whaling, correct?

HAYES: That is right.

WAYNE: And, so, now, we are looking back and thinking, John D., Sr., he
moved into getting oil out of the ground. Now, we are looking at clean
sources of energy. Of course, we are also looking energy efficiency and
in, you know, the democratic and moral nature of this argument in this

HAYES: John D., Sr., was there. So, the point, though, is that part of
this fortune was built because he was there very early.


HAYES: At a point when the adoption of oil as the main fuel source,
particularly for transportation, was happening. He was there. He was kind
of present at the creation.


HAYES: You see this as a kind of natural progression because something oil
replaced whale oil, something is going to come after oil.

DORSEY: That is right. I mean early adapters now in the new energy economy
that will be the ones that will benefit.

HAYES: The John D. Rockefeller`s --

WAYNE: Like he would have been out there.


DORSEY: The powerful thing about this divest-invest movement is that it is
aligning both ethical risk and financial risk and opening up --

HAYES: What is the financial risk? There is so much money to be made in
fossil fuels. Why is there any financial risk at all?

DORSEY: Well, first of all, I would question that if you look at coal.


DORSEY: Over the last three years, coal is down 60 percent when the S&P is
up over 40 percent.

HAYES: It is getting hammered.

DORSEY: Right?


DORSEY: And, I think that is prologue of what is to come with all fossil
fuels. And, so your past will not tell us what the future will hold. And,
the financial risk is that the fossil fuel companies have more reserves
that can ever be burned or we cooked the plan at --

HAYES: 80 percent has to stay in the ground. So, when you are making
capital intensive decisions for investment, you could be pouring money down
the well but never going to actually pull it up.

DORSEY: Exactly. Exactly.

HAYES: Because that is going to stay there.

DORSEY: And --


DORSEY: And, they are continuing to spend over half a trillion annually in
further exploration.

HAYES: That is the craziest thing in the world.

DORSEY: That is insanity.

HAYES: Valerie, Rockefeller Wayne -- think about that for a second
everyone. $500 billion every year on exploration to find new fossil fuels
when we cannot burn 80 percent of what we already know we have. Valerie
Rockefeller Wayne, Chair of the Rockefeller Brothers Fund and Ellen Dorsey,
Executive Director of Wallace Global Fund. Thank you both very much.

WAYNE: Thank you.

DORSEY: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Coming up. It is being called the biggest climate
march in history. We will have all the details, next.



RICKEN PATEL, PRESIDENT OF AVAAZ: Climate change is not a green issue
anymore. It is everybody`s issue. It is everything we love. So, if you
look at the march today, just in New York City, labor has come out in

That is really a new thing. You got Immigrant Rights Groups, Social
Justice Groups, teachers, parents. It is really wide-cross section of
society. And, that is the kind of movement we need to win.


HAYES: In what organizers say, it is the biggest mobilization ever to
combat climate change. Yesterday, an estimated 400,000 people marched in
the streets of Manhattan. About four times, hundred thousands expected.
And, people in climate march included more than 1,400 organizations,
participants from around the world and near by locales like Staten Island
neighborhood devastated by hurricane Sandy.

Politicians, musicians, and celebrities joined in, coordinated to proceed
the United Nations` Climate Summit tomorrow. And, that was followed today
by a smaller but substantial protest called Flood Wall Street to highlight
corporate America`s role in climate change. In the past hour, police have
reportedly been arresting protesters. One person at a time, including one
seen here dressed as a polar bear in what is going to be an iconic photo, I
guarantee you.

Joining me now, one of those protesters, Climate Activist, Tim
Dechristopher, who served 21 in prison for posing as a bidder while
protesting in oil and gas lease auction by the Bureau of Land Management in
Utah. Can we show that photo again, the polar bear? What is going on in
this photo, Tim?

all day long right outside of the stock exchange surrounding bull, holding
a lot of space there in the Wall Street area. And, then around 4:00, they
moved up to try to get to the Wall Street and the police had that
barricaded in. So, then they sat in there along Broadway and Wall Street.

HAYES: Including a guy in a polar bear costume?

DECHRISTOPHER: Including the guy in the polar costume.

HAYES: I love the fact that his paws are actually being cuffed. That is
the best part.



HAYES: He got his paws behind.

DECHRISTOPHER: Yes. So, last I heard, there was a little over a hundred
people, they were arrested there today on Wall Street.

HAYES: What does it mean? 400,000 people is a lot of people.


HAYES: I mean that is a big march. What does it mean? What does this
march mean for the politics of this issue here, for the power of the
movement, for what happens in the U.N.?

DECHRISTOPHER: Well, I think the biggest thing about yesterday is really
what it means for the climate movement. I think it was a defining moment
for the movement. You know, it may or may not change policymakers` minds;
but I think that for the people involved, it was an extremely empowering
experience with a lot of energy, a lot of beauty, a lot of diversity.

And, it shows that the climate movement has reached this kind of maturity
that is bringing in a lot of new folks. And, I think it is a point where
the leaders of the climate movement can start trusting people power, you
know? For decades now, the mainstream of the big green groups have been
trying to appease those in power and appease corporations and concentrated
wealth. And, I think that is because they saw that as the only force big
enough to do the kind of work that needed to be done.

HAYES: Right.

DECHRISTOPHER: For climate change.

HAYES: Right. So, it is like we can partner with these companies --


HAYES: -- towards conservation.


HAYES: We can partner with these companies towards the3se sort of
environmental objectives.

HAYES: Right.

HAYES: Because, we are big institutional players and they have the power.

DECHRISTOPHER: Right, because they are the big force that we see all of
the time in our society. And, we do not see the power of people power all
of the time. We do not see that collective power. And, it is not
something that we can learn to have faith in because of avatars on a
screen, their names on the petition. It is something you have got to feel
in a real way.

You got to see those people and feel those people and sing with those
people and march with those people. And, that what has happened this week.
And, I think it can be a defining empowering moment for those leaders to
say, this is the kind of force that can create the kind of change that we

HAYES: This is a movement that has really come very far and has gotten
more militant.


HAYES: I mean you have got arrests. You have got people engaging in
peaceful, nonviolent civil disobedience. You have got people in the
streets. I think it is partly, and tell me if you agree with this, that
people are just like those politicians just do not get it and are not going
to fix it. We need to just go to the street.

DECHRISTOPHER: Yes. Yes, absolutely. It is a massive failure -- a
massive political failure and things are changing very rapidly. I mean,
you know, I have spent the last few months organizing with folks who
angered a lobster boat in front of a coal fired power plant and blockade a
shipment of West Virginia coal. And, at their trial, the D.A. came out and
dropped the charges and said it was because out of concern for climate
change. And, he was there in the march, yesterday.


DECHRISTOPHER: He was marching with the defendants that he was supposed to
be prosecuting.

HAYES: Really? Where did that happen?

DECHRISTOPHER: That happened in Massachusetts, at the Brayton Point Coal-
Fired Power Plant. It was D.A. Sam Sutter that came out and said that he
was dropping the charges out of concern for the children who would be
impacted by climate change. And, he said that there has been a massive
political failure and he said he would be in New York and he was there

HAYES: That is an incredible story. Tim Dechristopher, a Climate Justice
Activist. It is always really a pleasure talking to you.

DECHRISTOPHER: Yes. Thanks for having me.

HAYES: Right. That is "All In" for this evening. The "Rachel Maddow
Show" starts right at this moment. Good evening, Rachel.


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