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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday,October 7th, 2014

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October 7, 2014

Guest: Ruben Gallego, Karima Bennoune, Krystal Ball, Don Blankenship


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are we secure? Are we protected?

HAYES: ISIS propaganda as campaign propaganda. Meet the candidate using
video of an American being beheaded as an attack ad.

Then, a startling report out of Ferguson, Missouri. Police are now
planning for riots in case Officer Darren Wilson does not get indicted by a
grand jury in the death of Michael Brown.

Plus, "ALL IN" travels to the land of big tobacco and big coal.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In and of itself, coal is actually not toxic.


HAYES: And Jennifer Lawrence and her hacked photos. It`s not a scandal.
It`s a sex crime. "ALL IN" starts right now.

Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. The FBI is seeking the
public`s help tonight in identifying a masked man who appeared in an ISIS
propaganda video released last month speaking in what sounds like a North
American accent.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here in the 17th division military base just
outside the city of Raqqa. And we`re here with the soldiers of Bashar.
You can see them now digging their own graves in the very place where they
were stationed.


HAYES: The man could be one of the dozen or so Americans the FBI believes
are currently fighting with ISIS in Syria. Just this weekend, a 19-year-
old from Chicago was arrested at the airport allegedly - allegedly on his
way to join the militants. Despite the U.S. -led bombing campaign against
ISIS, the group is continuing to gain ground. After more than a week of
fierce battles with Kurdish fighters in Syria, they are now on a verge of
taking the city of Kobane, which is just a few hundred feet from the border
with Turkey and NATO member and key U.S. ally.

U.S. military has stepped up airstrikes on militant targets in the area.
Turkish president Tayyip Erdogan says that won`t be enough to keep the city
from falling to ISIS. All of which brings up a very important question,
never fully answered in runup to this campaign, if airstrikes fail, then
what? Despite that unanswered question and many others, there have been
remarkably little political debate over the Obama administration ISIS
strategy arming the Syrian rebels passed by wide margins in both chambers
of Congress on a bipartisan basis. There were few voices of dissent in
Washington while the public overwhelmingly supports airstrikes. And yet
still, politicians are looking for ways to make ISIS a wage issue on the
campaign trail. We saw Scott Brown used it in his campaign against New
Hampshire Senator Jeanne Shaheen.


SCOTT BROWN: Radical Islamic terrorists are threatening to cause the
collapse of our country. President Obama and Senator Shaheen seem confused
about the nature of the threat. Not me.

SH: A National Republican Congressional committee has unleashed a barrage
of ISIS -themed ads against Democratic candidates.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Evil forces around the world want to harm Americans
every day. Their entry into our country? Through Arizona`s backyard. Yet,
Anne Kirkpatrick consistently votes with her party against protecting


HAYES: Well, Congressman Tom Cotton who`s running for Senate in Arkansas
may be pretty extreme, and as far as I can tell, entirely unsupported pitch
on a conference call with voters.


REP. TOM COTTON (R) ARKANSAS: Islamic State collaborate with drug cartels
in Mexico and have clearly shown they `are willing to expand outside the
drug trade into human trafficking and potentially even terrorism. They
could infiltrate our defenseless southern border and attack us right here
in places like Arkansas. This is an urgent problem and it`s time that we
got serious about it, and I`ll be serious about it in the United States


HAYES: And in the hotly contested race for Arizona`s ninth congressional
district, Republican challenger Wendy Rogers just unveiled this ad against
Democratic incumbent Kyrsten Sinema.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Terrorist threats are growing. Are we secure? Are we
protected? Keeping us safe and secure is Congress` job. Kyrsten Sinema
hasn`t done her job."


HAYES: Yes, you are not mistaken. That was a shot of James Foley from the
ISIS video of his murder. We reached out to the Wendy Rogers campaign to
invite the candidate to join us tonight, but they told us she couldn`t make
it due to a scheduling conflict. The ad has reportedly - has reportedly
been taken down from YouTube, but the campaign says it will continue to run
on TV.

Joining me now, is Ruben Gallego, he is an Iraq war veteran, running for
Congress as a Democrat in Arizona, adjacent to the district of Kyrsten
Sinema. What`s your reaction to seeing the murder of someone - the
preamble to the murder of someone in a political ad?

disgusting. One, James Foley (SOUND GAP), you know, she could take
advantage of it. In Phoenix, she`s known as a really trusted and dedicated
teacher that worked in one of our poorest school districts. And to see,
you know, his face without the permission of his family for political
advantage at the Rogers campaign is just disgusting. And, really, it`s
dishonorable for somebody who considers herself an honorable person in the
Air Force. She should be ashamed of herself that stuff like this ever

HAYES: You served in Iraq. And we are now amidst a campaign in which Iraq
is now on the front burner again. What do you make of this as someone who
served there?

GALLEGO: Well, a lot of this is deja vu again. I mean I actually served
in a lot of cities that are being fought over right now. Haditha, (AUDIO
GAP). So it`s a lot of flash backs for me. But it also reminds me of a
lot of what occurred under the Bush administration of just really this fear
mongering that took place to split, you know, split voters and create
wedges (AUDIO GAP) voters. And I think it`s just really an unnecessary
thing that`s being done by the Republicans. And I see it not just, you
know, in cinema`s district, but also in Kirkpatrick district, trying to
combine the fear of terrorism with illegal immigration. And for some
place, I guess, it`s very unnecessary.

HAYES: Yeah, the fear mongering, it strikes me as a strange alignment of
incentive, which we have ISIS clearly wants to make Americans scared, and
to make them - and then you have politicians who opportunistically think
they can gain something for making Americans scared. Which is how you end
up with propaganda from what everyone who says is a brutal, horrific and
murderous group starring in an ad for an American politician.

GALLEGO: It`s shocking that anyone would ever approve this. You know, the
amount of pain that they probably put the family through. And then also to
have another propaganda coup to ISIS by actually going back and actually
replaying this is horrible. And it`s irresponsible. And you - that`s
irresponsible leadership that she`s showing. And we cannot trust her to be
a congresswoman.

HAYES: Ruben Gallego who is running for Congress himself in Arizona, thank
you very much.

GALLEGO: Thank you.

HAYES: ISIS may have gotten our attention by killing Americans and trying
to wipe out religious minorities, like the Yazidis, but what`s clear is
that Muslims have overwhelmingly been the target of their brutality. Among
the thousands of people killed by ISIS, and associated groups, according to
a recent U.N. report, a large majority appeared to be - not surprisingly,
fellow Muslims. And it`s not just members of the rival Shia sect that`s
killed fellow Sunnis, too. Including Sunni clerics who refused to swear
allegiance to the caliphate, which is part of why ISIS has been almost
universally condemned by Muslim leadership around the world, including
senior clerics in Saudi Arabia, Turkey and Egypt. And all that seems
increasingly relevant amid a conversation here in the U.S. about the nature
of political Islam which we addressed right here last night.

More than 12 years now, the American media has had this debate about the
nature of violent Islam, and the nature of the Islamic religion as a
distinctly nefarious force - affairs. Yet, time and time again, there`s
this conversation that occasionally bubbles to the surface about the
Muslims that so often doesn`t actually include, you know, Muslims. So if
you`re going to have this conversation about the Muslims are this, or the
Muslims are that, and the Muslims believe X, Y and Z, then have it with
someone who actually practices the faith you`re talking about.

Tonight, we are going to do just that. Joining me now, Karima Bennoune,
she is professor of international law of the University of California,
Davis. Author of "Your Fatwa Does Not Apply Here." She wrote about people
standing up to fundamentalism and terrorism after her own father faced
death threats in his native Algeria for doing just that.

Karima, the - talk you gave, which has a million hits about precisely this
struggle in countries from Egypt to Algeria to Pakistan where you have
folks who are attempting to look at the eyes in the eyes of the most
fundamentalists and merciless groups and basically say no. It`s incredibly
inspiring. So, what do you make of this conversation as it plays out in
America, particularly in the wake of the gruesome ISIS beheadings?

to get beyond this shallow debate. We need to stop the discrimination
against Muslims and the sort of statements against Islam generally. And we
need to critique fundamentalism and support those who are on the ground,
who are standing up to it.

HAYES: What does it mean, though? I mean I think this is where I think I
started to ask Ben Affleck in that exchange - what`s your ask at one point,
which I thought was an interesting way of putting it. You know, I don`t
see a lot of people going around defending ISIS. I don`t - in fact, you
know, the people that I`m close with, that I have correspondence with, for
instance, in Egypt, who are lefties and anarchists and sexual (ph)
liberals, you know, they really dislike the Muslim Brotherhood, in fact,
they sort of cheered on a coup. Because they like - they dislike the
Muslim Brotherhood so much. But the question of as an American, what is
standing with X group standing up to a fundamentalist organization,
actually mean? What does that cash out as?

BENNOUNE: The first thing we need to do is to recognize their existence.
To listen to their voices. To listen to groups like the Network of Women
Living under Muslim Laws, women campaign here against the extremists from
Afghanistan to Nigeria. There`s the progressive Muslims here in the United
States group based in Los Angeles that is working, even performed same-sex
Muslim marriages. We need to make sure those groups have the support and
the resources they need. We need to make sure they have access to the
media. All of that is absolutely critical. It`s not that the U.S. or
Americans need to fight this struggle for Muslims and people of Muslim
heritage, it`s that we - we need to support their efforts.

HAYES: And that to me, the thing about the U.S. fighting, and part of what
ends up being the direction I feel like this conversation has taken in the
past week or two weeks, aside from I think some really willy-headed
nonsense about like is there a specific problem with Islam and the faith
itself is this question of, well, reformation. Some kind of reformation
coming to Islam across the world and one point - people practice it. And
somehow that it comes from us, I guess, as Americans. And it just seems to
me like that the conditions that most empower the most violent reactionary
elements in any society in any context. But, particularly, in the Islamic
world now is the sense that outsiders are attempting to wage some kind of
battle against heritage and faith.

BENNOUNE: This is not a clash of civilizations between the West and Islam.
This is a clash within a civilization on the ground in every country where
extremism is found. And the people who understand it the best are the
people who have been fighting it for decades, while the United States,
unfortunately, has been supporting the Gulf governments that have helped to
nourish these fundamentalist movements.

HAYES: Yes, it strikes me that if you wanted to say what`s - one concrete
thing that the U.S. could do to tamp down or to sort of starve the oxygen
for this, it would be to have a serious reckoning with the kingdom of Saudi
Arabia, which is - out of which flows most money for the exporting of the
most virulent kind of Wahhabism and extremist ideology.

BENNOUNE: Absolutely. And I`d like to see the United States standing up
for Saudi liberals like Raif Badawi who is now facing a thousand lashes for
running the liberal Saudi Arabia web site. I`d like to see the United
States standing up for the right of women in Saudi Arabia to drive. And
being openly critical as Vice President Biden was courageous enough to do,
of Gulf governments and other governments that are supporting these

HAYES: Yeah, that was a fascinating moment in American foreign policy,
because Joe Biden made the mistake of telling something that at least to me
looks a lot like roughly the truth. And a lot of reporting indicates that
much of the funding for some of the most extremist elements in the Syrian
war have flowed out of, at least private citizens in Qatar and in Saudi
Arabia. And he has now had to basically go around and apologize to those
regimes for saying that.

BENNOUNE: Yes, and I`ve been worried that as we are sort of allying yet
again with these Gulf governments in the battle against ISIS, that we will
overlook their own human rights records in their own promoting
fundamentalism. And everywhere I went, from Pakistan to Mali, people were
complaining to me about Gulf funding. In Pakistan, one woman said you
know, you, in the U.S., you`re supporting the biggest sharia state in the
world, which is Saudi Arabia. So we definitely have to rethink that.

HAYES: Karima Bennoune, thank you very much.

BENNOUNE: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. A new report reveals officials in Ferguson are
preparing for the worst. If the officer who shot and killed Michael Brown
isn`t indicted. A new video from an Indiana traffic stop leads to more
questions about the standard protocol of the American police departments.
That`s ahead.


HAYES: There`s a blockbuster report today out of Ferguson that Missouri
state law enforcement is planning for riots in the event that Darren
Wilson, a white police officer, is not indicted for killing Mike Brown. A
black unarmed teenager. The report says the contingency plans are being
drawn up right now for an outbreak of violence, according to Reuters.
Plans are being thrashed out and meetings are being held two to three times
a week and the FBI said it was involved - also involved in the discussions.
Ferguson Mayor James Knowles told Reuters that if unrest is set off by
grand jury decision not to indict Wilson, the concern is that "the unrest
is going to be far beyond the city of Ferguson." St. Louis County
prosecutor Bob McCulloch who`s overseen the grand jury proceedings has said
the decision could be reached next month. And though it`s unknown what
will ultimately happen, the residents of Ferguson who I`ve been in regular
contact with as well, as several activists and organizers I routinely talk
to all tell me they are increasingly convinced that there won`t be an

The fact, for instance, that Officer Darren Wilson reportedly spent nearly
four hours making his case before the grand jury. Something the target of
an investigation is not typically brought in to do. The fact that the St.
Louis County prosecutor Bob McCulloch did not recommend a specific charge
for Wilson, leaving it instead to the grand jury to take new evidence as it
becomes available and then to decide what the evidence warrants, basically
turning the grand jury into a kind of detective in of itself, something
that "Washington Post" characterized as an atypical approach. These news
around the grand jury has intensified the simmering anxiety in Ferguson and
that people around that city have not gone anywhere. They are still angry
and frustrated, and the situation is just as fraught intense now as it was
almost a few months ago.

If you want a snapshot of what`s brewing barely beneath the surface, this
is video taken outside the St. Louis Cardinals game last night. When there
is a man with an "I am Darren Wilson" handwritten sign at the back of his
Cardinals jersey.


CROWD (chanting): Justice for Mike Brown!

CROWD (chanting): Let`s go Darren!

CROWD (chanting): Justice for Mike Brown!

CROWD (chanting): Let`s go Darren!

CROWD (chanting): Justice for Mike Brown!

CROWD (chanting): Let`s go Darren!


HAYES: Racial tension, as you can see, is still there. Call for justice
is still there. And joining me now, MSNBC national reporter Trymaine Lee
who`s been covering the events in Ferguson since Michael Brown`s death.
You`ve been back there more recently than I have. That snapshot was, you
know, again, they are people who are drunk at a baseball game. You don`t
want to draw the massive conclusions. At the same time, that seemed a
snapshot -- that, to me, was a tiny blip -- a visible blip of what I had
been seeing when I was down there beneath the surface.

TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: When you look at that video, it still
seems so terrifying. We are still assessing out the details with the grand
jury and it`s not clear what, if anything, was done wrong by Darren Wilson.
But for a crowd of dozens to cheer Darren Wilson, another person said that,
you know, we gave you all the rights you have, talking to black protesters.
Another person said if you went and got a job, we wouldn`t be in this
situation. It shows you again how tenuous this situation is.

And how those nerves are so frayed and still very fragile.

HAYES: Yeah, and one of the things you`ve seen is, as the national media
cameras kind of left Ferguson, people stay in the protesting, they`ve been
protesting in creative ways and disruptive ways. I mean they`re refusing
to let this go away even if the process of the grand jury is happening.
This is something that happened in the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra on
Saturday night. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED PEOPLE (singing): Which side are you on, friend? Which side
are you on? Which side are you on, friend? Which side are you on?

Justice for Mike Brown! Justice for Mike Brown.


HAYES: I mean, that`s intense. Like that`s - like, and that is also a
reminder that whatever happens going forward, however the legal process
plays itself out, we are at the beginning of the story, and that it`s not
just going to stay in North County, St. Louis. Right? That`s in the St.
Louis Symphony, that`s New York Cardinals game last night. Other cities,
like this is not going anywhere.

LEE: The level of sophistication around the organization. That is
spreading. This weekend, this weekend of resistance that`s planned, where
you have thousands of organizers from across the country who plan on
descending upon Ferguson, it`s getting more organized. Around this broader
efforts. But what is masking is still that very real anger.

HAYES: That raw .

LEE: Because there is that concern as you`ve talked to folks, I`ve talked
to people every day that .

HAYES: Yeah. You know, we say - say .

LEE: There wasn`t. Might not be indicted. Many people don`t believe it.

HAYES: People - increasingly people don`t think it`s going to happen
again. That has no bearing one way or the other on what`s actually
happening in that process and or if he deserves it from the legal
prospective in terms what the evidence is. I haven`t seen the evidence
presented to ground jury, from an outsider`s prospective, it seems like
having covered criminal trials in the past, I`ve seen places where less
evidence have got an indictment.

LEE: Right.

HAYES: Frankly, than this. What I would say, though, is when people talk
about preparing for riots because some group of largely African American
people are upset about something, I kind of - I`m a little like what the
racial subtext here. In this case, there is so much anger, I don`t think
there`s going to be riots or not riots, but everyone I know who is in
Ferguson on either side of this case is preparing for that moment.

LEE: I think the scary part and referring back there - we read this
article where gun sales among white residents is out the roof. When you
talk about preparing for concert of widespread unrest, look - Hurricane
Katrina. When you had people trying to flee, fled ground to - and they
were firing over their heads over the bridge.

HAYES: And it reminds me, current (INAUDIBLE), in terms of the rumor mill.
I mean there`s this rumor mill on different sides of the racial divide in
Ferguson in North County and St. Louis. I`m hearing it from the sources
I`m texting and talking to about, oh, they are planning to evacuate the
white people, or oh, they are planning to do this and that. And Lord knows
what`s true about it. But people are in a kind of a very kind of anxious,
terrified .

LEE: That hyperbolic fear is very dangerous, because that - some people
would say that`s what got us in the situation in the first place. This
overall fear of this black man, now you have thousands of angry black
people. How do you handle it?

HAYES: That`s right. And what we have seen in the way that there`s this
situation from that moment on Saturday afternoon is, there`s been periods
of mutual - of escalation, in which particularly when law enforcement is
escalated, the situation has gotten more out of control.

LEE: That`s right.

HAYES: And when law enforcement deescalated this situation has gotten
calmer. That has been the kind of pattern throughout. And that`s going to
be really important in the coming days, particularly this weekend.
Trymaine Lee, thank you very much.

LEE: Thank you.

HAYES: What might be excessive force caught on tape, what happens may
shock you, but police say they were just following protocol? We have the
tape. We`ll play it for you. Stick around.


HAYES: And Indiana couple is suing police for what - for using what they
say was excessive force after a disturbing incident during a traffic stop
was caught on tape in Hammond, Indiana. On September 24, Lisa Mahon and
Jamal Jones were pulled over with Lisa`s seven-year-old daughter and 14-
year-old son in the backseat. According to the lawsuit, a police officer
told Lisa Mahon she had been pulled over for not wearing her seatbelt and
asked her for her I.D. Mahon said she complied and asked to be issued a
ticket quickly because she was rushing to the hospital to see her mother
before she died. Police then asked Jamal Jones who was sitting in the
passenger seat for his I.D. Jones says he didn`t have it. According to
lawsuit, Jones told police he had been ticketed for not paying his
insurance and didn`t have a driver`s license. So he offered the ticket to
the officer. At this point, Jones says the officer drew his gun and police
asked him to step out of the car. Jones refused because, according to the
lawsuit, again, he feared the officers would harm him. Meanwhile, Lisa
Mahon, the driver had called 911 from her cell phone. This is as police
are outside her car. Her 14-year-old son captured some of the incident on
the video. We do not know what happened before or after this video you are
about to see, but you`ll hear Mahon talking on the phone, again, to call
911, and you`ll see and hear some of what happened between Jamal Jones and
police outside the car, warning, the video is disturbing.


LISA MAHON: Now they are asking me to open my door so I can get out. I
fear that - if you can pull out a gun in front of - there are still kids in
the back seat.

OFFICER: Open door for you. You understand. All right.

MAHON: No, don`t miss - no, no. (INAUDIBLE)

JONES: If you do that - all right, I`m not - I`m not operation in this

OFFICER: Are you going to open the door?

MAHON: Why do you say somebody is not going to hurt you? People are
getting shot by the police.




HAYES: Jones appears to be being tazed there. Police dispute much of
Jones and Mahon`s story. They say Jones refused to hand off the ticket and
he says he offered to officers that he refused to lower the window more
than the small amount that you can see in that video and that his reaching
toward the backseat made them fear he might be reaching for a weapon. The
Hammond Police Department`s two page statement on the incident argues that
"The Hammond Police officers were at all times acting in the interest of
officer`s safety and in accordance with Indiana law." But after watching
this video, I would argue, that if this is compliant with protocol, this is
what it looks like when police are following the rules, if the police think
this traffic stop went just fine, then that, itself, is the problem.


HAYES: It is not a scandal, it is a sex crime. Those are the words of
Hollywood superstar Jennifer Lawrence talking to "Vanity Fair" in the
newest issue with a cover that was shot before hackers stole nude photos
of her and other celebrities from Apple`s Cloud storage service and posted
them on the internet.

After that happened, "Vanity Fair went back to Lawrence`s reaction not only
the hacking, but also to those who said she shouldn`t have taken naked
pictures in the first place. "I started to write an apology, she said,
"But I don`t have anything to say I`m sorry for. I was in a loving,
healthy, great relationship for four years."

As for someone hacking those pictures, quote, "It`s a sexual violation.
It`s disgusting. The law needs to be changed and we need to change.
Anybody who looked at those picture pictures, you`re perpetuating a sexual
offense. You should cower with shame."

Joining me now is Krystal Ball, co-host of "The Cycle" here in MSNBC. I
was really impressed by Jennifer Lawrence and the way she handled this
whole thing. I like that line about where I was going to write an apology
and I was like no.

KRYSTAL BALL, HOST, MSNBC`S "THE CYCLE": Exactly. And I love that she
didn`t apologize because not only for herself is that empowering, but for
women who are watching this unfold who have, my God, had the audacity to
send a compromising picture to a loved one before, it`s a really important

The thing that really bothered me when this first broke was that instant
instinct for people to say why are you taking nude photos anyway? To
instantly go to blaming the victim rather than saying, your property was
stolen. Even if you`re a celebrity, that is still a violation.

HAYES: Yes. It was interesting. I did -- the people that I am friends
with. I didn`t -- people I friends with were not saying anything like, you
shouldn`t take nude photos. One thing I did hear though was, well, she`s a
movie star. She does nude sex scene, how -- how crazy could this be like -
- I almost in this way of like not understanding the level of violation
that represented. But she clearly could have like profoundly as one would
be, like felt profoundly violated.

BALL: Of course, I mean, people get confused to about the difference
between what happened online is about somehow less real.

HAYES: Or that she`s posing on the cover, right? She`s posing topless and
that`s just what you do. So why do you care?

BALL: But it`s no difference when it`s online than when it`s in real life.
If you`re a peeping Tom glimpsing into her bedroom window without consent,
everyone would know that was wrong, right? Even if she had posed nude --

HAYES: That`s right.

BALL: -- even if she had been naked.

HAYES: So that`s an interesting point, right? In the physical analogy
here, an actual peeping Tom in the actual window of Jennifer Lawrence`s
apartment, right? Everyone understands anyone doing the looking is engaged
in the crime, right? So when she says if you looked at these images,
right, you`re complicit in somehow. Maybe not legally but morally like
that reason is a pretty strong argument.

BALL: It`s pretty strong and it`s also very real because the whole reason
that these images have power is because they do get so many clicks and so
much attention.

HAYES: Also when this first broke, I felt like the conversation of being
around celebrities and celebrity privacy. But the thing you said in the
beginning to me is the much more important part, which is in this day and
age, I now sound like an old man. But the fact of the matter is people
send, in relationships, send compromising pictures themselves, compromising
intimate pictures themselves, all sorts of things to each other.

And then when the relationship ends, those things stick around and there`s
an entire universe of revenge porn sites and these aren`t celebrities.
These aren`t people who -- you have no expectation price. They are just
people who now find themselves in a situation, which some other person,
some ex-lover, boyfriend now owns this thing and they can have no legal
recourse to retroactively withdraw consent from.

BALL: That`s exactly right. And the legal system hasn`t caught up with
that. There are women across the country who are struggling to deal with
the fact that not only have these images been posted, but it`s having
incredible impact on their life. At times, they`ve lost their jobs. Their
whole situation has been compromised because they have someone with this
material out there who is posting it and posting it and posting it.

HAYES: There`s been a few states that have outlawed so-called revenge
porn. The ACLU has opposed that? They basically said we are worried about
the direction this goes. What do you think about that?

BALL: I think we have to have a legal system that recognizes the right
that people have to have private material. That doesn`t mean indefinite
consent until the end of time. We`ve got to catch up with that. The other
thing that I would say here is there`s nothing to be ashamed of. I don`t
know why there`s so much shame around, my God, a woman`s naked body.
That`s the other piece of this that`s troubling to me.

HAYES: The only thing we should be ashamed of is our bodies. Krystal
Ball, thank you.

You can catch Krystal on "THE CYCLE" weekdays at 3 p.m. Eastern on MSNBC.

All right, how coal is like big tobacco, the second instalment of our All
in America series, "Coal Country" premieres tonight.

Plus, he`s been called a killer coal baron. I`ll talk to one of coal`s
most intimates figures. Don Blankenship himself ahead. You don`t want to
miss that.


HAYES: If you missed the premier of "All In America, Coal Country, last
night, you can see our first report on our web site at
Don`t go away. Our second report is just ahead.


HAYES: All this week, we`re bringing you a series in the coal industry in
America, a very powerful profitable industry in decline that`s fighting
tooth and nail against regulation that threatens its profits. Very much
like big tobacco in the 1990s, big coal has on its hand a very dangerous
product, something the scientific community is acknowledging more and more.

Today, big coal is fighting that growing scientific consensus and using a
few pages out of big tobacco`s playbook.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coal is done for all intense and purposes. Maybe
there`s 20, 25, 30 years left, but coal is done in Appalachia. What we`re
seeing now is the last gasp of an industry that`s trying to blast, dig, and
otherwise drag every last little bit of capital profit they can get out of
this region before my allies, my friends, can say no, you`re not leaving on
your terms, you`re leaving on ours.

HAYES: The story of coal is the story about a very powerful, profitable
industry, an industry fighting tooth and nail against efforts to regulate
its dangerous product. An industry so profitable, so powerful, no
government has been able to contain it and it`s a story you`d likely heard

ANNOUNCER: This book is a federal government report. It was released at
noon today and it says in view of the continuing and mounting evidence from
many sources, it is the judgment of the committee that cigarette smoking
contributes substantially to mortality from certain specific diseases and
to the overall death rate.

HAYES: In 1964, a report from the surgeon general set off one of the
fiercest and longest public health battles of our times.

SENATOR ROBERT F. KENNEDY (D), NEW YORK: We must accept the fact that the
cigarette industry is peddling a deadly weapon. It is dealing in
Cigarettes would have been banned years ago were it not for their
tremendous economic power, the tremendous economic power of their

HAYES: As doctors and activists fought for more regulation on cigarettes,
they repeatedly rammed to a brick wall. Public interest lawyer, John
Banzeth, fought against big tobacco for decades.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At that time, tobacco was so important that a tobacco
state congressman would trade his home for anything else in the world if
the legislators from, say, Minnesota would vote.

HAYES: Tobacco waged war against a Clinton-proposed cigarette tax and
congressional efforts to regulate their business.

UNIDENTIFIED ANCHOR: The nation`s tobacco makers came out swinging on
Capitol Hill today.

UNIDENTIFIED ANCHOR: Company executives said cigarettes are no more
addictive than a cup of coffee or Twinkie.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you believe nicotine is not addictive?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t believe that nicotine is addictive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe that nicotine is not addictive.

THOMAS SANDEFUR, BROWN AND WILLIAMSON: I believe that nicotine is not

DONALD JOHNSTON, AMERICAN TOBACCO: I do believe that nicotine is not

HAYES: Throughout the battles of the `80s and `90s, the industry`s base of
power was in North Carolina where one senator fought to keep tobacco on

SENATOR JESSE HELMS, NORTH CAROLINA: My good friends, providing with the
demise of the tobacco program.

HAYES: But if tobacco was once of the most powerful in North Carolina,
today Duke Energy, the largest electric utility in the country.
Headquartered in Charlotte, Duke Energy`s presence is felt all over the
state at universities and performing art centers. The governor of North
Carolina, Pat McCorey worked there for nearly 30 years.

The 2012 Democratic National Convention in Charlotte paid for in large part
by Duke. Duke Energy operates 14 active and retired coal fired electric
plants in the states. Those plants, which burn coal create a by-product,
coal ash.

mercury and lead and zinc and boron and thalium and cadmium and all kinds
of carcinogens and neurotoxicants. It`s extraordinarily toxic.

HAYES: Duke stores 100 million tons of coal ash in coal ash ponds across
the state. For years they have fought environmental regulations. State
lawmakers and
environmental regulators have obliged.

HARRISON: Nothing happens in Raleigh that they don`t approve of basically.

HAYES: But earlier this year, one of Duke`s coal ash ponds started

UNIDENTIFIED ANCHOR: The 80,000 tons of coal ash leaked into a pond and
then into the Dan River. It happened at a Duke Energy plant.

UNIDENTIFIED ANCHOR: This is coal ash, the sludge that is carpeting part
of the Dan River. In some places, it`s five feet thick, and it stretches
70 miles.

HAYES: Dan River provides drinking water to thousands of homes. Brian
Williams, an environmental activist focusing on water quality issues has
spent six years working on the Dan River.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is what you don`t see right now. If you look, you
see the sand bar here. It just looks like a normal sand bar. But if you
dig down into it, you`ll see that`s coal ash right there. So what happens
is the river runs down through here and then we`ve got a nice layer of coal
ash right there.

HAYES: Federal regulators ordered Duke to clean up the river and in July,
they reported they`ve completed the effort. There are growing calls for
Duke to move their coal ash ponds away from the state`s water sources.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People will say, well, that`s going to cost a lot of
money. Yes, it`s going to cost some money. That`s what happens when you
make mistakes. And the next generation has to pay for your mistakes. It
costs money.

HAYES: Today, Duke says the river is clean and the water is safe to drink.
Coal ash is in and of itself toxic.

(on camera): Is it toxic?

JEFF BROOKS, DUKE ENERGY SPOKESPERSON: I think that toxicity as with many
things a function of those -- in taken and coal ash in and of itself has
many of the same ingredients that you would find in soil and other things.
But in large doses, you know, potentially, it could be there.

HAYES: I mean, it`s also got other stuff that you wouldn`t find in soil.

BROOKS: Well, it has a few things, certainly. But in and of itself, it is
not inherently toxic. It is toxic potentially in large does, but in and of
itself, coal ash is not toxic.

HAYES (voice-over): Keep in mind, North Carolina just burns coal. They
don`t even mine it. To see where it really wreaks havoc, you`ve got to go
to coal country. In states like West Virginia and Kentucky, coal is often
extracted through a process known as mountain top removal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`ve already carved like a wedding cake around the
side of mountains to get into the seams so now we literally just going to
obliterate the top of the mountain and just scoop in from the top.

HAYES: Coal companies use thousands of pounds of explosives to quite
literally blow off the top of mountains. If process unleashing tons of
dust and smoke into the surrounding environment. Bob Kincaid, an activist
and 9th generation Appalachian has watched the destruction of the industry
that brought to his state.

the water. It goes in the aero. It goes everywhere. These are tiny, tiny
particles. So heaven only knows how far they blow in the wind. But
ultimately, where they go is into human beings.

HAYES: Today, the state of West Virginia is leading the fight against any
new regulations of coal. They are suing the EPA over its latest rules.

KINCAID: This is a government that is an entirely wholly owned subsidiary
of the coal industry and it`s been that way for over 100 years.

HAYES: But just like you don`t have to be a smoker to be exposed to the
dangers and cost of smoking, the effects of coal mining extend much further
in the states where it`s mined. Everyone on planet earth is experiencing
the consequences. Burning coal is one of the largest sources of carbon

great majority of Americans are nonsmokers. It`s killing you, 50,000
people were dying of secondhand tobacco smoke. And now we`re able to show
them, it`s burning a hole in your pocketbook. You`re paying much more,
Medicare, Medicaid, veterans expenses and so on and so forth.

HAYES: The ultimate secondhand smoke for the coal industry is the carbon
it puts into the atmosphere warming our planet. That science is settled.
For tobacco, it took almost 40 years for the settled science to translate
into effective policy.

JOHN CHEVES, REPORTER: Our members of Congress could not dance fast enough
whenever the tobacco industry told them to dance. Finally, it got to the
point where tobacco didn`t have much clout anymore. But the echo of the
political influence of tobacco lasted another 10, 12, 15 years because the
money and the donations kept coming into the campaigns.

HAYES: And that`s what we face with coal. The problem is, we can`t afford
another four decades of complacency.


HAYES: Don Blankenship, the former CEO of Massey Energy might just be the
single most notorious figure in the American coal industry and he will be
here with me next.



CARL SHOUPE, RETIRED COAL MINER: Coal has done nothing but rape, ravage
and steal from Harlan County. It`s made ten people multitrillion
millionaires and 10,000 beat up with black lung and died. I watched my
father die, choked to death, smother to death. I watched my father-in-law
smother to death. I watched my grandfather die with black lung stuff. No,
coal has not been good to me.


HAYES: Tom Blankenship is one of those trillion-millionaires. He was CEO
of coal giant, Massy Energy, from 2000 to 2010. It a reign that got him
dubbed as the dark lord of coal country by "Rolling Stone." He became
known nationwide particularly after an explosion of Massey`s upper big
branch mine in West Virginia of April, 2010 which killed 29 miners. It was
the worst domestic coal mining accident in 40 years.

Multiple investigations faulted Massey for the blast sighting the failure
of the company`s safety systems. A finding Don Blankenship has disputed in
a documentary he released early this year.

The company that bought Massey agreed to a settlement of more than $200
million in connection with the criminal investigation of the explosion and
Don Blankenship joins me now. Thank you for coming.

to know the truth about what happened at UVB, they need to go to and watch the documentary.

HAYES: The retired coal miner, what`s your response of that?

BLANKENSHIP: Well, I think that what I watched from the time I was born in
1950 all way through was a country that became the strongest country in the
world on the back of coal. People did make a sacrifice to mine the coals,
but it provided the electricity and steel and so forth to make this country
the great country that it is.

HAYES: It did provide energy, but specifically if look at the places that
we would call coal country, it`s striking how poor they have been for how
long they have been while people like yourself and others, I mean, you made
millions of dollars while you were the head of Massey Energy, how
profitable it`s been for the people that run those countries?

BLANKENSHIP: It`s been very profitable for people that work there today,
too. Coal miners today make $30 an hour in many case, which is probably
twice the national average and you know, the coal has been a vital part of
the country.

HAYES: They also take on a tremendous amount of risk. The only reason
they make $30 an hour is because there`s so much unionization that was
fought for so much regulation that was fought for all tooth and nail
against a coal industry that at every turn didn`t want any of that, right?

BLANKENSHIP: I don`t that`s the case. I think the coal industry pays
people because the coal business is a very complicated, high-technical
business. I think it`s a disgraced t to say that the miners only get paid
for the risk because they`re very skilled electricians, very skilled

HAYES: But it was not paying people very well before they unionized. They
didn`t pay people like they were skilled back in the day. They started
paying them once the United Mine Workers and John Lewis got together and
started calling strikes.

BLANKENSHIP: I don`t think that any industry in this country paid as well
in the 50s, 60s, 70s, as they paid later on. I mean, it`s just the
progression of wages. If you want to know the real truth about coal, go to and watch what`s going on in China and how important
coal is to the world`s development and how important it`s going to be.
Coal is very important.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. You talked about how it powered the U.S.
during this period of growth. Given how dangerous it is, given the fact
that anywhere between 50,000 people a year die from poor air quality just
here in the U.S., many more in China, much of that from the things that
come out of coal when it`s burned. If tomorrow I told you we could swap
out all the coal in America with solar and wind, you would think that would
be good, right?

BLANKENSHIP: I think if you could use renewables completely and provide
reliable energy at a low cost, it would be good. But I think you fail to
consider the trade-offs. The costs of not having coal would be very high
as well. If you watch, you`ll see.

HAYES: The first of that, if we get to the point where it`s scalable price
competitive and you can implement it, you say if you can swap out a BTU of
coal for solar, that`s great.

BLANKENSHIP: You added a big element for that. But if wind and solar and
other renewables were competitive, it would be a different story than what
it is.

HAYES: They are in ten states right now.

BLANKENSHIP: They`re competitive if they`re subsidized. There`s a lot of
problems with wind and solar.

HAYES: They are unsubsidized competitive in almost 80 countries. They`re
competitive in about 10 countries. Plus, we`re subsidizing coal out the
zoo by allowing all this carbon to go in the atmosphere and not taxing.

BLANKENSHIP: Again, if you go to, you`ll see what
you`re saying is not true. So if the world was going to be in trouble
because of carbon emissions, it`s going to be in trouble because of carbon
emissions. The Chinese are up to 4 billion tons, which is four times --

HAYES: This is such an interesting thing that I`ve encountered. People for
a long time have denied the science of climate.

BLANKENSHIP: I still do.

HAYES: Right, you still do. Have now switched to saying, well, China is
going to burn the coal anyway. When was that switch happened?

BLANKENSHIP: Well, it happened when the United States stagnated on coal
and China went up 400 percent in carbon emissions. The problem we`ve got
is there`s a trade-off. You can do this story that you`re doing on coal in
Pittsburg about steel. You could do in North Carolina about textiles. You
can do it anywhere in the country.

HAYES: In Indiana with steel.

BLANKENSHIP: We have not had any increase in the demand for industrial
electricity in this country since the clean air act passed in 1990. You
got 42,000 factories shut down. You`ve got 27 million people are on food

HAYES: You think it`s because of the clean air act?

BLANKENSHIP: I think it`s partially because of the clean air act --

HAYES: Come on.

BLANKENSHIP: I believe in the math. The free trade and the EPA rules make
it almost impossible for an American to have any chance in this country.

HAYES: Twenty years from now, we played that clip of tobacco people saying
I don`t believe it`s addictive. You`re going to look like that 20 years
from now. How do you think about what your legacy will be 20 years from

BLANKENSHIP: I think our legacy will be that we made it possible for the
country to be very strong and to be the super power of the world and to
have the best quality of life in general of any place in the world.

HAYES: And you don`t think that history is going to look poorly on the
things you`ve said?

BLANKENSHIP: I think that the history will look upon it as what we needed
to do. Coal miners didn`t go out and try to destroy the environment. They
were providing energy for our country that needed the energy.

HAYES: It`s not the miners.

Don Blankenship, thank you so much for coming in.

BLAKENSHIP: Thank you.

HAYES: That is ALL IN for this evening. The "RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts


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