All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, October 10th, 2014
Read the transcript from the Friday show
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: October 10, 2014
Guest: Robert Tef Poe, Taurean Russell, Tim Reid, Christina Bellantoni,
Tara Dowdell, Sam Sutter, Jigar Shah, Bob Kincaid
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight, on "ALL IN," tensions running high in
St. Louis as protesters gather from around the country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think the man that (INAUDIBLE) is an idiot.
HAYES: A plane passenger jokes about having Ebola. Plus, Republicans have
a new campaign strategy. Terrify you.
Then, standing up against climate change. The Massachusetts D.A. who
dropped charges against two men who blocked a coal shipment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is one of the gravest crises the planet has ever
faced. We took a stand here today.
HAYES: He joins me tonight. And getting pulled from class for a Nobel
Prize. Malala becomes the youngest winner of the peace award. "ALL IN in"
starts right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes. For a third night in
a row, people are expected to be out on the streets in the St. Louis metro
area protesting the fatal shooting of a young black man. Earlier today,
hundreds marched in Clayton, Missouri, demanding the removal of St. Louis
County prosecutor Bob McCulloch, and some demanding the arrest of police
officer Darren Wilson following the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown.
There was a tense standoff last night between police and protesters
following the shooting death of 18 yield Vonderrit Myers by a uniformed on-
duty St. Louis police officer on Wednesday. Police say Myers had a gun
that he fired at the officer after an altercation, a charge his family
disputes. And earlier today, his family identified Myers on a store
surveillance tape just before his fatal encounter with the officer. They
reiterated, they do not believe that he was armed.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can plainly see that he was not armed. His pants
was almost hanging off his whole body.
SYREITA MYERS, MOTHER OF VICTIM: The same people who supposed to protect
and serve they`re taking our lives with no explanation and then they try to
justify and then they put them out there as animals like they were animals
and they was these hard core criminals and it hurts so bad because you can
say all of these horrible things about my son. But I don`t know anything
about the man who took his life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Autopsy results released late last night reveal Myers was shot once
in the cheek and six or seven times in the body, not in the back of the
head, as some had suggested. That information was released in the midst of
last night`s marches, which occurred not in Ferguson, but in the heart of
St. Louis. Now - heat up even more in St. Louis as thousands are expected
to flood into the area are arriving as I speak for planned actions over the
weekend. Earlier yesterday evening, St. Louis P.D. appeared to try to
avoid the mistakes of the Ferguson police, staying back even as protests
intensified. Protesters blocked several intersections and chanted things
like no justice, no peace. And united we stand, united we fall. At one
point, a few protesters took an American flag and burned it as cameras
Around 10:00 p.m., police seemed to shift their tactics. We started to see
many of the same trappings of the intense police presence. They were part
of the cycle of escalation that led to almost two weeks of unrest in
Ferguson over the summer. Police stood in a line with shield, something we
saw in Ferguson in August. They were dressed in full SWAT gear attempting
to contain the protesters. Protests continued on for several hours into
the night with pepper spray being used on several protesters.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you going in or not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you in or not?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, man.
TAUREAN RUSSELL, CO-FOUNDER, HANDS UP UNITED: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Press is going to meet you there, Taurean.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to bring this - We are going to bring this
RUSSELL: I need some water. I need that water.
HAYES: The night ended with eight arrests, two police vehicles damaged and
one business with broken windows. Today, the family of Michael Brown
released a statement urging calm. And, so far, as of now, we have seen
calm, peaceful protest tonight. But it is early on a Friday night as
thousands of people are headed into the St. Louis Metro area for a series
of protest that are being built as some of the largest in recent St. Louis
history. Joining me now, is Trymaine Lee. MSNBC reporter, he`s been
covering events in Ferguson since Michael Brown`s death. He`s been there
Trymaine, what did you see today?
TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Earlier, through a cold, whipping rain,
what started out as a crowd of dozens turned into a crowd of at least 200?
They stood outside of the Bust Westfall Justice Center, you know,
proclaiming themselves there to ask prosecutor Bob McCulloch or demanding
the prosecutor to step down. They marched around the block again,
emboldened by some of the events that took place just about a dozen miles
from here in St. Louis. The killing of the 18-year old man. And they bold
and they are excited pressing through the wind and rain and they`re here to
make a statement.
HAYES: You know, we have seen in the last few days because of the shooting
of , who, it should be - it should be said according to police, according
to what we know so far looks to be under quite different circumstances than
the fatal shooting of Mike Brown. Police say there`s a weapon recovered
that he fired at the officer. That has not been independently confirmed,
as of yet, but I should put that out there. It does seem like the protest
is sort of ignited across the region now. I mean, last night, you saw
protests that looked like the Ferguson protest in the very heart of St.
Louis and neighborhoods in St. Louis that were far removed from the unrest
I think we may have lost sound on Trymaine there. Trymaine, are you still
with me on that?
LEE: I`m back, Chris. Certainly, what began as protest here in ground
zero in Ferguson clearly spread beyond these borders into St. Louis? And
even despite some of the facts that police say they presented, that they
found a gun, that there`s a bullet hole in the car in the direction of the
officer, people here are still angry and upset that another young, black
man has been killed. Again, and part of this speaks to the abyss of
distrust between the community and the police. And the anger, especially
among the kind of core group of protesters, veterans of the protest here in
Ferguson say they`re not going to stop until their voice is heard not just
hear, and not just in St. Louis, but across this country. That`s going
HAYES: You were there in August. You and I were both there. We were both
covering it. It struck me then how organic the protests were, but often
how unorganized, or disorganized they seem. Is there a difference now?
Does it seem like the protests are more organized? That there`s sort of
leadership, that there is folks who`ve had experience in doing this?
LEE: It`s kind of twofold. In those early days, where things seem so
unwieldy, and organic and spontaneous, all across Ferguson here on the West
Florissant, (INAUDIBLE), where Michael Brown was killed. I mean and then
people started to organize and have specific goals and ideals and demands
and even organizing under Hands-Up United, and other organizations to pull
off what they are calling, this weekend of resistance. But then, even now,
I`m not sure, if it`s as organized as we thought. Expecting thousands. We
haven`t seen many people out here yet. There`s talk of splinter groups
going over to the (INAUDIBLE) neighborhood to St. Louis while there are
events planned here in Ferguson. And even as I spoke, I just got a text
message that`s saying, there`s some - another action over at the police
department, at the same time it`s supposed to be a candle light vigil here.
And it`s still as they can deal with the ideals and as organized, it`s
still a little unwieldy because so many people have so many different
interests under this kind of umbrella of protests.
HAYES: Trymaine Lee, thank you very much. Joining me now are the co-
founders of Hands Up United. Robert Tef Poe and Taurean Russell. They are
also both of the Organization for Black Struggle. Taurean, let me start
with you that was footage we showed of you being pepper sprayed last night.
Can you tell me about the circumstances under which that happened late last
night in St. Louis?
TAURIAN RUSSELL: No matter the location, Ferguson or St. Louis, a peaceful
protest turns violent and ugly by the arms of the police. We were
peacefully protesting, walking down the streets on grand, walking passed
arsenal. I believe I was attacked by the police. They walked out, police
officers, some people wanted to have a verbal confrontation with them to
verbalize, you know, their anger. And after that, the cars were already
back there. They formed formations. And then behind us, they came out of
cars and they swarmed us. No warning. Pepper sprayed me probably within a
yard. They started beating up people and it was strategic to get people
off of grand onto arsenal where the buildings and the trees are tall so
they can do what they do, which is hurt peaceful protesters.
HAYES: Let me say this, Tef, and I`ll direct this question to you because
I was watching the live stream last night and I saw you on it.
For folks that are watching that live stream, who are seeing what`s
happening, you know, the protesters are in the police officers` faces,
they`re yelling at them sometimes not more than a few inches away. What do
you say to people who say you are provoking? You`re going out of your way
to try to elicit this response from the police?
TEF POE, CO-FOUNDER, HANDS UP UNITED: Well, 17 shots into an unarmed man
was provoking. Leaving Mike Brown in the street for 4 1/2 hours, dead, not
allowing his parents to approach his body, forcing his parents to watch
their son die was provoking. I think it`s unfair narrative that says, you
know, you can come to our communities, that you don`t even live in, shoot
us dead and then expect us to Kumbaya our way out of the situation. To
expect us to not hurt, to expect us to not express the anger. This problem
has been going on since my father was my age, since my mother was my age.
It doesn`t look like your father`s civil rights movement because it`s not.
We`re fed up. No one has answers. You know, people try to pacify us. The
information that they do give us in the mainstream media is information
that we already know in the community. We haven`t got answers at all and
HAYES: Let me ask you about one thing you said in the beginning. You said
fired 17 shots in an unarmed man. And I assume that`s talking about
Vonderrit Myers who was shot and killed in the Shaw Neighborhood. You
know, police say they have recovered a weapon. They say there`s
ballistics. There`s shell casings. Do you just - do you think that`s
TEF POE: St. Louis P.D. is widely known for a term that we call in my
neighborhood, free casing. I`ve been walking down the street one morning,
going to work and a cop pulled up on me and said what do you know about
this murder? I say nothing. He says, get in the back of this car and tell
me about it downtown. This happens all of the time. So I don`t think that
it`s an unfair situation for us to be suspicious of the fact that they say
he had a gun and his parents didn`t.
HAYES: Taurean, these protests that are planned for the weekend, do you
see them taking place throughout, do you think people will be back in St.
Louis, in Ferguson, in Clayton, all around the metro area this weekend?
RUSSELL: To speak on what Taurean said, it`s a method to the madness. The
organizing - this organization that you see, it`s actually a plan. You
can`t come down with 22 or 27 municipalities at the same time, lock people
up, hold hostages, pepper spray tear gas people when you`re spread thin. I
commend them for coming out last night. Good luck doing it on a weekend in
the weekend resistance.
HAYES: Tef Poe, Taurean Russell, thank you very much.
POE: Thank you.
RUSSELL: Thank you.
HAYES: Joining me now, Tim Reid, he`s a correspondent for Reuters. Tim,
you wrote a piece about planning that was happening inside officialdom in
the St. Louis Metro area in Missouri, for the possibility of larger-scale
unrest in the event of a lack of indictment for Darren Wilson. What did
you find out through your reporting?
TIM REID, REUTERS CORRESPONDENT: Well, I found out, I mean, obviously, all
sides, police enforcement, African American community, and the white
community - everyone is very fixated on the grand jury decision which is
expected to come out probably around the second week of November. And in
the event that Officer Darren Wilson is not indicted by the grand jury,
which many expect to be the decision, there is a great deal of concern
among law enforcement that this will spark big protests, maybe even bigger
than the ones we saw in August in the aftermath of Michael Brown shooting.
So, they are actually meeting two or three times a week, various police
forces in the area to draw up contingency plans to prepare for these riots.
They also worry that the riots will not just be confined to Ferguson, but
to St. Louis. And also - they`re also talking to other police forces in
other parts of the country both to get advice on how to deal with mass,
civil unrest. But, also, to keep tabs with other police forces on outside
groups that might come into the area, to, as the police enforcement people
say, possibly, to cause trouble in the event that Officer Wilson is not
HAYES: You`re saying they are meeting two or three times a week. I mean
that`s a fair amount of preparation going into this.
REID: Yeah, I mean I think this shows the level of concern about this
eminent grand jury decision. I mean among the African American community,
and this is not lost on everyone else, the grand jury that is deciding the
Michael Brown shooting and then whether or not to indict Officer Wilson is
a 12-member grand jury, nine of those members are white, six are white men,
three members of the grand jury, African American and the chief prosecutor
in charge of the proceedings, Bob McCulloch, who you mentioned earlier in
the report, he comes from a family of policemen, his own father was shot in
the line of duty by an African American man. So, there`s a lot of
distrust, profound distrust in Ferguson that they will get a fair and
impartial decision, although that is something that Bob McCulloch fiercely
denies and says that the press says it`s fair.
HAYES: Of course, the question is, whether police learned - what lessons
they take away in responding to mass protests, which have been largely
peaceful, I mean throughout, if you sort of quantify them, the vast
majority of protests and expression, even when they`ve been angry, have
been peaceful. What kind of posture they take? Any sense from the
reporting what that looks like?
REID: Now, with this - that`s very much a work in progress. And that is,
I think, one of the major things that they`re discussing in these meetings
is what kind of posture to take. Which police force takes the lead? I
mean it was announced last week that the St. Louis County police are now
going to take the lead day-to-day from now on. Whether they take the lead
after the decision on the indictment is made is still being decided. I
mean they`re not ruling out or taking off the table, you know, if things
get really bad the use of carriers that we saw in the aftermath of the
Michael Brown shooting. They are not taking anything off the table, but
they are obviously very concerned, and this is a major part of the debate
how to patrol the streets in the case of problems.
HAYES: Tim Reid, of Reuters, thank you very much.
REID: Thank you.
HAYES: After years of fracturing, Republicans have finally been able to
come together on one thing - to scare the hell out of the American public.
I`ll explain ahead.
HAYES: 25 days before the midterm elections, Republicans have finally
settled on a unifying message - be afraid, be very afraid. Up until now,
they haven`t really had one main theme to bring it all together. Their
2010 wave was driven by concerns over federal spending and out-of-control
deficits. The deficit is now at a record low, and for a while, we thought
it would be all about Obamacare. Now, the exchanges have turned out pretty
well. Republicans seem to have largely abandoned their calls to repeal the
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think at this stage, what we should do is a number
of bills that would fix flaws in Obamacare. I think we`re passed the point
of being able to repeal the bill all together.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: So, taking their cue from what has been a pretty grim bleak news
cycle, the GOP has landed our argument that basically boils down to this.
Ebola`s coming, ISIS wants to kill you and it`s all the Democrats fault.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: While ISIS terrorists threaten to cross our border and
kill Americans, my opponent falsely attacks me to hide her failed record on
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s a deadly disease and it needs to be taken
seriously. This president seems to have trouble taking anything seriously,
whether it`s Ebola, whether it`s our border security.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: With America`s national security threatened, warnings
of Islamic extremists, ISIL plotting imminent attacks, but what does Mark
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mark said last week that ISIL does not present an
imminent threat to this nation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is a world health crisis. It has to be
addressed, again. You know, I`m a mom. I`ve got kids. And people are
concerned. This is a safety and security issue and the president needs to
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And because few things scare a candidate more than their opponent
successfully scaring the crap out of the electorate, some Democrats appear
to be getting it on the act.
In last night, North Carolina Senate debate Republican candidate Thom
Tillis accuses opponent, Democrat Kay Hagan of making her constituents less
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STATE REP. THOM TILLIS, (R), NORTH CAROLINA: But she decided that a Park
Avenue fundraiser was more important than a classified briefing on the
threat of ISIS. She`s failing on a comprehensive strategy for ISIS and
incidentally, she`s failing on a comprehensive strategy for addressing the
Ebola threat. When I saw this threat emerging, I called for a ban. I
think it takes courage to say folks, we`ve got to get the situation under
control until the CDC can convince us that people are not going to come to
this nation and threaten our safety and security.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And in echo of our politics after 9/11 when Democrats - away from
challenging the GOP national security scare tactics incumbent Senator Kay
Hagan fired right back with a similar one of attack.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. KAY HAGAN, (D) NORTH CAROLINA: These people are terrorists. They
have killed Americans. Our mission should be to eradicate these
terrorists. I`m well informed on these issues, but I think Speaker Tillis
has been spineless because he will not say what he would do. He is not
saying whether he would arm and train the rebels or whether he would put
boots on the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
HAGAN: I`m decisive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, Christina Bellantoni, editor and chief of "Roll
Call.: And Christina, it is - Jerry Peters (ph) had a piece in "The New
York Times" basically noting this. But it has gotten dark. The new cycle
is dark. It`s basically Ebola and ISIS all the time. The level of sort of
fear and threat is high. And you`re seeing now an election that wasn`t
really about anything substantively. Now, sort of going to the lowest
common darkest denominator.
CHRISTINA BELLANTONI, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF "ROLL CALL": Yes, all those true.
There are two really important points to point out. One, all of Congress,
Republicans and Democrats punted. And decided not to address the ISIS
issue before going on recess to campaign. They left a week earlier than
expected, didn`t deal with this. Now, there are some people, both parties
that want to see a vote. We`re basically saying we authorizing the
president to use military force there. But using in a campaign ads, I mean
that`s typical. Everybody has done that since the beginning of campaign
ads, right? You`re going to use something to scare people to show up.
Now, the other part of this, Ebola, I do - I think we need to turn the lens
on ourselves a little bit. They wouldn`t be able to use this to scare
people if the media was not trumping up these stories and scaring people.
BELLANTONI: I mean we all play a part in that. And, you know, what a
Democrat - I talked to this week said, why don`t we talk about the rising
obesity rates, or ways that if we don`t invest in infrastructure, we could
have another Minnesota bridge collapse. Like those things are scary, why
aren`t we using those tactics? And Democrats just don`t have the same
ability to message on it. But, in all, voters want to feel like they`re
voting for something. And oftentimes, that ends up being a change message.
But, in general, it`s something positive that you`re turning your life
around. So, the scaring, it works for some voters on the margins, but it`s
not necessarily the most effective tactic.
HAYES: Well, and there`s also been - I mean there`s also been some really
reckless scare monitoring here. I mean Wendy Rogers in this Arizona race
and Kyrsten Sinema having an ad with James - the opening shot of James -
his beheading video in a campaign ad, which I think was widely seen as
beyond the tale, tasteless and disgusting. She added polling that add.
You`ve had two members of Congress, Duncan Hunter and Trent Franks, both
Republicans, claiming, as a matter of fact that ISIS fighters have been
either up against the borders or operating (INAUDIBLE) when there is no
evidence of that whatsoever.
BELLANTONI: Yeah, that is - it doesn`t - you don`t really - the truth in
advertising role is sort of nonsense. We have fact checking organizations
that will say, will that ad was baloney. That just gives you fuel to run
BELLANTONI: And it really goes back and - and both parties do it and both
parties trump these things up. One thing - I have seen a little bit of a
shift. You are not seeing as many social issues. I mean think about the
sort of like, are they corrupting our values scary ads .
BELLANTONI: That you`ve seen in years past? There`s less of that.
HAYES: No, that`s completely gone.
BELLANTONI: Because of what you are seeing with the gay marriage decision.
HAYES: You are not seeing it. It`s amazing.
HAYES: Here, you have all of this actual stuff happening with gay
marriage. It`s completely outside of that. Christina Bellantoni, thank
BELLANTONI: Thank you. Have a good one.
HAYES: Ahead, what looked like a scene from E.T. come to life on a U.S.
Airways flight, plus we`ll wrap up our week of "ALL IN" America coal
country." What happens to Appalachia when all the coal`s gone? Stay tuned
HAYES: In Birmingham, England, this morning, there was an unusual
announcement during chemistry class at the age best in high school for
girls. The teacher came in, pulled one of the students aside to tell her
she had won a Nobel Peace Prize. That student, of course, is Malala
Yousafzai, the 17-year-old Pakistani girl who just two years ago was
recovering from a gunshot wound to the head after the Taliban tried to kill
her for doing what earned her the Noble Prize today, tirelessly advocating
for girls` right to education.
She shares the prize with Kailash Satyarthi of India whose organization
Save the Childhood movement has continuously campaigned for children`s
rights and an end to child trafficking. Symbolism of the Pakistani Muslim
and an Indian Hindu sharing the prize are not lost to either of them. As
Malala recounted a conversation she`d had with the fellow Nobel laureate
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALALA YOUSAFZI, WINNER OF NOBEL PEACE PRIZE: We both decided that we will
walk together for this call that every child gets quality education and do
not (inaudible) these issues. Other than that we also decided that he is
from India and I`m from Pakistan, we will try to build strong relationships
between India and Pakistan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Since the Taliban`s attack, Malala has become a symbol of bravery
and perseverance in the face of terror, violence and oppression promoting
non-violent solutions to conflict and crisis.
A year ago in a meeting with the president in the oval office and the first
lady, she voiced her opposition to American drone strikes in Pakistan even
though they reputedly were targeting the people who try to kill her, saying
the attacks were fuelling terrorism.
Today, at a time when America is in a fearful mood, Malala reminds
remarkable courage of so many across the globe who must stair down terror
right where they live almost every single day. She`s a voice for humanism
in inhumane times.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
YOUSAFZI: It does not matter what`s the color of your skin, what language
do you speak, what religion do you believe in, it is that we should all
consider each of them as human beings and we should respect each other and
we should all fight for our rights, for the rights of children, for the
rights of women and for the rights of every human being.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The world knows Malala Yousafzi`s name for good reason. Today is
an opportunity to consider just how many more Malalas are out there. How
much quiet and bravery there is in this world. Thank you, all of you.
HAYES: Well, we`ve done it, America. Just when you thought air travel
couldn`t get more awesome, Ebola flight scares are now a thing. Today in
Las Vegas, a Delta flight that originated at JFK in New York was
quarantined at the gate at the McCarran International Airport.
This, after a passenger, who according to reports, had recently travelled
to Africa, got sick and threw up on the plane. After a brief delay, the
Clark County Department of Aviation released this statement.
That reads in part, "It has been determined that the affected passenger
does not meet the criteria for Ebola." I understand people taking
precautions, but in a country where nearly 2 million people are getting on
planes every day, you expect some percentage of them to get sick.
In fact, (inaudible) on flights called airsickness bags or parches bags
every seat back pocket for just such an occasion. Today`s false alarm, of
course, comes on the heels of what happened yesterday, just an incredible
scene in Punta Cana, Dominican Republic.
A U.S. Airways flight from Philadelphia landed in the DR shortly after 1
p.m. local time and that`s when a 54-year-old man reportedly sneezed and
said, quote, "I have Ebola. You are all screwed," hilarious.
Now the confusion and rumor about the disease, the plane was held on the
tarmac and a flight attendant addressed all 290 passengers on board.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FLIGHT ATTENDANT: Everybody sit down. You, too. I need your
attention. I`ve done this for 36 years. I think the man that has said
this is an idiot. And I`ll say that straight up. I want you to keep your
wits about you. We have people coming on.
We`ve all been watching the news. So they look like they`re in the little
bubble machine. Please, stay out of their way. Let them do their job.
This is all new territory for all of us. I`m trying to give you the loop
as much as I can.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: There are more than 8,000 cases of Ebola more than half of them
died. Here in the U.S., there`s been a one confirmed case, Thomas Duncan,
a Liberian man who died on Wednesday.
Ever since he got on a plane and came to the U.S., there`s been a fear and
worry of an outbreak happening here, which may explain why 58 percent of
Americans now want a ban on incoming flights from West African countries
hardest hit by Ebola.
Even though the CDC and public health officials say that would be a very
bad idea. Joining me now is Democratic political strategist and Ebola
skeptic, Tara Dowdell.
That video is so great because A, the fact that they`re wearing E.T. suits,
my favorite part of it is the fact that the plane isn`t freaking out. You
can tell, like, that`s what I love about this.
Sometimes I can`t tell whether the media is creating the sort of fear and,
like, people are actually pretty chill or if people are panicking. And I
feel like what I get from this video that people are actually pretty chill.
TARA DOWDELL, DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL STRATEGIST: People are totally chill.
People are taking selfies during that incident.
HAYES: Not with the Ebola suspect.
DOWDELL: Yes, exactly. I think the greatest part of it was the flight
attendant. When she said I just want to say I think the guy that said this
is an idiot. I think that really set the tone and calmed people double.
But I think this is a really gross over-reaction. Is Ebola a problem in
Liberia? Yes. Is Ebola a problem in Sierra Leone, a serious crisis? Yes.
Is it a problem in the United States of America? No.
HAYES: No. It just simply isn`t and, yet, we are now in a situation in
which, because of the media and because it is a communicable disease, it`s
something that they want to contain. You know, we saw it in Las Vegas.
Someone throws up on a flight.
Someone says -- I don`t know about an idiot there, somebody acts in a
strange manner and makes a joke about Ebola and you`ve got guys in bubble
suits on the tarmac. And that`s going to be the way it is.
DOWDELL: Yes, it`s sort of like no one should make a joke about having
Ebola. If you don`t want your flight delayed, don`t make a joke about
having Ebola. But I do think that this has been hyped so much by the
media, by so many people.
We have the enterovirus, for instance, which is actually affecting kids.
There are all of these situations of little kids, 600 and such at
hospitals, being paralyzed and dying. That is something that we should be
concerned about. But this gross over-reaction, I think, and it`s being
HAYES: You told me something that your husband is a doctor. He`s a
pulmonologist? He`s going to go to Liberia?
DOWDELL: Yes, he`s going to go to Liberia to help with the situation.
HAYES: That is pretty incredible.
HAYES: So how do you feel about that?
DOWDELL: Well, as I mentioned, as I said, it is a problem. It`s a serious
crisis in Liberia so I am obviously concerned. But at the same time, I
gave him my blessing because they need people to help. We have great
doctors, great hospitals, and great technology in this country.
Unfortunately, part of why so many people are dying in Liberia is there`s
not enough beds, not enough resources, not enough trained professionals to
service the amount of people back there. So I support it nervously.
HAYES: When is he going? Do you know?
DOWDELL: He is probably going to go early next year because we`re actually
going to Ethiopia first to do some humanitarian --
HAYES: And you are undeterred?
DOWDELL: I am undeterred. I will be in Ethiopia in November.
HAYES: This is a keep calm and carry on Tara Dowdell. Thank you very
DOWDELL: Thank you.
HAYES: All right. We`ll wrap up our week-long series of original
reporting, "ALL IN AMERICA" Coal Country tonight, how a lobster boat called
the "Henry David Tea" got involved in the protest over coal use in America
and the amazing thing that happened after they do. That`s ahead.
HAYES: Tonight, at 10:00 p.m. Eastern, MSNBC will be broadcasting the ALMA
awards, the America Latino Media Arts Awards, which honors outstanding
Latino artistic achievements in television, film and music.
And at 11:00 p.m. Eastern, my friend and colleague, Alex Wagner, will be
hosting after the ALMAs. She`s going to have great, behind-the-scenes
video and special guest including Eva Longoria and MSNBC`s Jose Diaz
Vallart. Hope you`ll tune in.
HAYES: All this week, we`ve been chronicaling the uncertain future of coal
in America. Coal is the country`s dirtiest fuel and it`s getting hammered
not only in the market place, but by a protest movement. It`s trying to
shut the industry down, which brings us to this, two guys and a lobster
In May of 2013, climate activist, Ken Ward and Jay O`Hara navigated a 32-
foot lobster boat to a harbor near the Braden Point Power Station, NASA
facility on the border of Massachusetts and Rhode Island and the largest
coal fire power plant in New England.
When they arrived at their destination, Ward and O`Hara dropped anchor and
then called the local police.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEN WARD: Ken Ward, we are anchored off the pier at Riggand Point. I
wanted to let you know we`re conducting a nonviolent, peaceful protest
against the use of coal. And we`ll be completely cooperative.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Ward, O`Hara, and their small lobster boat, the Henry David Tea,
were positioned right where a 689-foot freighter needed to dock and unload
a 40,000 ton shipment of coal from West Virginia. Over the course of a
day, they managed to block that freighter and its shipment before finally
quitting the blockade.
The two men were later charged with conspiracy and disturbing the peace
among other violations, but that is not where the story ends. Ward and
O`Hara were scheduled to face trial last month. They were ready to use
something called the necessity defense.
The two had to act because the consequences of climate change are so dire,
but they didn`t have to. Bristol County District Attorney Sam Sutter
dropped the conspiracy charge and downgraded the other civil charges to
Facing a group of reporters gathered and holding a copy of "Rolling Stone"
magazine, turned to an article on climate change written by
environmentalist, Bill McKevin, Sutter explained he essentially agreed with
Ward and O`Hara.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIIFIED MALE: This is one of the greatest crises the world has ever
faced and it keeps getting worse. We took a stand here today and, case-by-
case, incident by incident, we will continue to take a stand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now is Sam Sutter. Mr. Sutter, why did you make this
decision? What was your thought process as you went into this?
SAM SUTTER, BRISTOL COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: My thought process was that,
first of all, I had a duty to uphold the law and I think I did that.
Because they did say they were responsible and they did agree to pay back
the town of Somerset for the police overtime costs.
But I also agree with their position on climate change. It is a crisis and
so therefore, I felt empowered to make the decision that I did to dismiss
one of the charges and reduce the others.
I think what brought on all the intention was the short speech that I gave
afterwards and I never thought that a three-to-four minute speech would
bring more attention to myself and my office than prosecuting Aaron
Hernandez but it has.
HAYES: Was it a moment of evolution for you? This has been an issue that
was close to you that you`ve been thinking a lot about or was it something
about being confronted with the facts of this case and the facts of this
protest that kind of galvanized you or changed your mind and made you think
about this in a way that you hadn`t before.
SUTTER: I would say the latter. I would say more that I`ve been reading
more and more as the years have gone on. I`m an avid reader of Bill
McKivens. I was particularly inspired by a short piece in "Rolling Stone"
in June of this year.
He called the march that was coming up then. It took place a few weeks
ago, a signal moment in the movement. I think that it was and so that was
certainly part of my -- part of my thinking as I came into court that day.
HAYES: You came to that march and my question for you is do you think we
are going to see more civil disobedience? Do you see this as a moment when
the times demand people to do things that are out of the ordinary to kind
of bring the issue to it had in a way it needs to be to confront the
SUTTER: Well, I`m not encouraging civil disobedience, necessarily, because
as I`ve said many times, Chris, I agree with their position, although I
disagree with the action that I took. I have to say that because, after
all, I am the district attorney.
But I see many promising signs on the horizon. I`ve watched your show
avidly this week and the focus that you`ve put on this issue. I think that
we have to do not only more. We have to do much more.
HAYES: Sam Sutter, District Attorney, thank you very much. Appreciate it.
SUTTER: Thank you.
HAYES: I`ll be joined by activist, Bob Kinkaid, and clean energy
entrepreneur, Jigar Shah, to talk about the future and what`s exciting
about it. Stick around.
HAYES: So, for years, defenders of coal have made their argument by posing
questions such as do you like having a refrigerator and airconditioner? Do
you like having cheap electricity? You, of course being a human being
And then the defender of coal says, well, then coal is the only way to go.
The only problem is scientist say that in order to present the planet from
becoming uninhabitable, we have to keep much of the earth`s fossil fuel
reserves in the ground.
Much of the earth`s fossil fuel reserves are about 80 percent. Extracting
and burning remaining coal reserves could push us to the point of no return
and that of course is where renewable energy comes in.
Joining me now to discuss this future is Bob Kinkaid, who might remember
from our series this week, co-founder of the Appalachian Community`s Health
Emergency Campaign, and clean energy entrepreneur, Jigar Shah. He started
Sunedision, a solar energy company and is author of "Creating Climate
OK, let`s start with -- I want to start with the skepticism of people
responding to our coal stuff this week, which is you`re a ridiculous hippy
You don`t understand anything about engineering and base load. You`ve got
to burn coal forever. This idea that you could put up your little
windmills and your solar. It`s preposterous. What do you say to that?
JIGAR SHAR, FOUNDER, SUNEDISON: We`re deploying $20 billion of the solar
this year. So that`s more than all the natural gas that we`re deploying
this year, any coal which we`re not deploying this year, any nuclear that
we`re deploying this year. So in terms of --
HAYES: We`re deploying more solar this year than natural gas?
SHAH: Absolutely. The profits making for law firms, investment firms,
they`re making more money on solar than natural gas, coal or nuclear this
HAYES: What about the question of base load, right? This is the big
thing. People say coal and nuclear and hydro, also, right? They give you
this steady load, whatever time of day. You don`t have to worry about
whether it`s windy or sunny.
You can`t leave those behind. Those are always going to have to be the
things that power your grid. And the idea that you`re going to go to a
full, renewable grid is ridiculous.
SHAH: Well, I think that, first out of all, you have to acknowledge that
we already have 450,000 megawatts of natural gas plants operating in the
U.S. and which aren`t going to go away in the next year or so.
Second is that we`re actually moving to demand dexterity with supply
dexterity. So today, you can actually control your airconditioner with the
Today you can actually change the way people use electricity using big data
cheaper than you can turn on a new, natural gas generator.
HAYES: Right, so if you have a sophisticated enough grid and sophisticated
enough software, you can actually predict load and demand well enough that
you can match supply and demand in a kind of dynamic way, which hasn`t been
possible even as recently as 10-15 years ago.
SHAH: At 80 percent less cost than turning on the natural gas generator.
HAYES: Right. So it`s actually cheaper to get really good software than
to burn some molecules of carbon.
HAYES: Bob, you said this thing that stuck with me about my coal done in
Appalachian. I was amazed when we went down to Harlan County. You`re
talking obviously you`re from West Virginia. This is in Eastern Kentucky.
It`s part of the same region.
I think it`s fair to say. I was amazed that the folks I was talking to
down there, almost to a person, said the same thing, and these are people,
some of whom are conservative, some of whom hate Barack Obama, some of whom
love Barack Obama.
Some of whom thinks climate change is a hoax. Some of whom think it`s a
pressing concern, but everyone is like we understand. We see the writing
on the wall and, yet, the political system doesn`t yet.
BOB KINCAID, ACTIVIST: How can you not see the writing on the wall, Chris?
Because there`s not more coal in the ground being made by little Keebler
coal elves, it`s going to go away and we`ve got a hundred years of dealing
with the boom and bust cycle.
The people who have dug the coal and died to dig the coal know that better
than anybody else. It`s not at all surprising that people would
acknowledge reality. I know it seems challenging now. But we know that
it`s going away.
And we know it`s going away because we wouldn`t be blowing the tops off of
mountains with 5.5 million pounds of high explosives every day in
Appalachia if there were six-foot seems of coal underground to be dug
The fact of the matter is the jobs are going away and the workers know it
because there were thousands upon thousands of underground coal miners once
upon time. They are gone now and there`s little more than 4,000 mountain
top removal workers in West Virginia.
HAYES: For the entire state -- there`s 4,000 for the entire state?
KINCAID: Yes. And coupled with that, there are 4,000 statistical excess
deaths in West Virginia`s mountain top removal counties every year. So
we`re talking about an almost one-to-one swap for life for job. And that
is not something that a state can tolerate and sustain into the future.
HAYES: And, yet, do you feel like coal`s power has been eaten away?
What`s fascinating about me about this moment for coal is it`s facing a tax
on two flanks. In the market, it`s really in trouble, right?
SHAH: Coal lost 10 percent of its share price yesterday.
HAYES: Yes, and on Friday, there were three big coal companies that hit
historic lows. They`re getting hammered. Their bond ratings are in
trouble. Like they are getting hammered in the market, right?
SHAH: We`re hiring 2,000 to 3,000 people a month in the solar industry
alone. You count energy efficiency and a lot of the other climate change
solutions there is and we`re up to 5,000 people a month. It`s
extraordinary how many people we`re on boarding every month.
HAYES: OK, but that`s happening in the market. Plus, you`ve got
activists, people like yourselves who are going after coal in sort of
activism. But you go watch the Senate debate in West Virginia and they`re
just competing on who loves coal the most, same thing down in Kentucky.
When does that political power go away?
KINCAID: I think it only goes away when the coal industry itself goes away
because our politicians have had the common decency to get bought and stay
bought. The only people talking about the realities are third party
candidates. And they`re talking about renewable energy and they`re talking
about the health crisis in Appalachia and they`re talking about HR 5260
emergency act and mountain top removal.
HAYES: That`s in Congress.
KINCAID: Yes. I have had two ads in the "Charleston Gazette," Chris,
calling on the Democratic candidate or the Republican, to not acknowledge
that the studies, and there are more than 20 of them, that show that people
are being poisoned in mountain top removal communities.
Not to agree with these studies, but to simply to acknowledge that they
exists. And neither of these candidates and none of our political
SHHA: Don`t you think the reason Al Gore lost the presidency in 2000 is
because he lost West Virginia, a state that`s reliably Democrat. Every
Democrat has been afraid of talking about coal since that election. We
need leadership. We need some people like Grimes to realize that actually
if she talked about inspiration and hope that we would actually get
HAYES: Here`s the most exciting thing to me about the best case scenario.
I try to focus on best case scenario because if you focus on the worst case
scenario of climate, you get super depressed.
The best case scenario is that there`s a relationship between the
concentration of power and who gets the stuff out of the ground and the
concentration of power and politics.
What that looks like is West Virginia and Kentucky and poor states with
corrupt politics for a long time. And the future we might be headed
towards, which is a more distributed one, might be one that is also more
small D democratic when a small group of people don`t control all of the
KINCAID: I think that`s absolutely true, but it`s also a matter of the
politicians having to learn and the political consultancy class, Chris.
There`s polling data out there for both Republican and Democratic pollsters
in the last few years that show upwards not just the morality, but 60
percent of people hate mountain top removal.
HAYES: Bob Kincaid and Jigar Shah, Gentlemen, thank you both. All right,
to wrap up this week, my family is here visiting the studio tonight. Every
time my daughter comes, she asks to see a video of a different animal on
Last time, it was elephants. So we showed two baby elephants in a wading
pool. Tonight`s request is gorillas. Here`s some gorillas eating birthday
cake at the Cincinnati Zoo to celebrate the birthday of Gladys, the baby
western gorilla who turned 1 in January.
That is ALL IN for this evening. The "RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts now with
Steve Kornacki filling in for Rachel. Good evening, Steve.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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