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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, October 16th, 2014

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Date: October 16, 2014

Guest: Diana DeGette, Peter Hotez, Frank Denton, Jennifer Carroll



REP. FRED UPTON (R), MICHIGAN: Travel restrictions or bans.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Travel restrictions.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I recommended a quarantine in the infected region.

HAYES: Ebola hearing. As Republicans line up to call for a travel ban,
some are accusing the government of hiding the truth about the disease.

Then, Bill O`Reilly and Jon Stewart go head-to-head on white privilege.

JON STEWART, COMEDY CENTRAL: Were there black people living there in 1960?



O`REILLY: I don`t know.

STEWART: There weren`t.

HAYES: Tonight, we`ll tell you the real story of Levittown.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The owners of this development have not as yet decided
to sell these homes to Negroes.

HAYES: We go back to Florida as Rick Scott hits the fan.

DEBATE MODERATOR: We have been told that Governor Scott will not be
participating in this debate.

HAYES: The incumbent governor of Florida is a no-show thanks to a fan
under his challenger`s podium.

DEBATE MODERATOR: Frank, have you ever seen anything like this?

FRANK DENTON: No, I haven`t.

HAYES: Frank will join me tonight as we examine exactly what happened.

wrong with being comfortable.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.

GOV. RICK SCOTT (R), FLORIDA: He said he wasn`t going to come to the


O`DONNELL: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Just moments ago, President Obama pushed back on mounting calls from
Republican lawmakers to impose a travel ban from the West African countries
where the Ebola outbreak began.


objection, necessarily, to a travel ban, if that is the thing that is going
to keep the American people safe. If we institute a travel ban instead of
the protocols that we`ve put in place now, history shows that there is a
likelihood of increased avoidance. People do not readily disclose their
information. They may engage in something they called broken travel,
essentially breaking up their trip so that they can hide the fact that
they`ve been to one of these countries where there is a disease in place.
And, as a result, we may end up getting less information about who has the
disease. They`re less likely to get treated properly, screened properly,
quarantined properly. And, as a consequence, we could end up having more
cases rather than less.

Now, I continue to push our experts whether in fact we are doing what`s
adequate in order to protect the American people. If they come back to me
and they say that there`s some additional things that we need to do, I
assure you, we will do it.


HAYES: President`s comments come amid growing concerns on Capitol Hill
where a House panel today grilled U.S. health officials over lapses in the
government`s Ebola response that led to the infection of two nurses at that
Texas hospital.

One of those nurses, Nina Pham, first person to contract Ebola in the U.S.,
is now on her way from Texas Presbyterian Hospital in Dallas, to a
specialized facility at the National Institutes of Health in Maryland.

Pham`s transfer to the NIH comes amid tough questions at today`s hearing
about the Texas hospital`s lack of preparation to handle an Ebola case.


REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: Was this information given to your
emergency room personnel? And was there any actual person-to-person
training at Texas Presbyterian for the staff at that time? Yes or no?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was given to the emergency department.

DEGETTE: Was there actual training?



HAYES: This morning on the "Today" show, Briana Aguirre, another nurse at
Texas Health Presbyterian described what she saw as the hospital`s
mishandled response.


BRIAN AGUIRRE, NURSE: They gave us an optional seminar to go to, just
informational, not hands-on. It wasn`t even suggested that we go. It
wasn`t, you know, something that they said, you know, you really should try
to make it. It was no special gear. We were unprepared in the sense that
we did not know what to do with his lab specimens. They were mishandled
and that`s what the lab technician told me.

I just couldn`t believe it, you know? And the second week of the Ebola
crisis at my hospital, the only gear they`re offering us at that time and
up until that time is gear that is allowing our necks to be uncovered.


HAYES: Although another nurse told NBC News she is confident in Texas
Health Presbyterian and the hospital has been pushing back on criticisms by
Aguirre and other nurses. The hospital is, for the first time,
acknowledging missteps that may have resulted in the death of Thomas Eric
Duncan, the first Ebola patient diagnosed in the U.S. who succumbed to the
virus last week.

This morning, a hospital administrator called Duncan`s fiancee, Louise
Troh, later said in a statement, quote, the purpose of this call was to
apologize to me for the death of my fiance, Thomas Eric Duncan, and to
express regret the hospital was not able to save his life." This official
said the hospital was deeply for the way this tragedy played out. "I`m
grateful to God that this leader reached out and took responsibility for
the hospital`s actions."

The CDC also came under fire in today`s hearing, with lawmakers asking
Director Tom Frieden why Amber Vinson, the second nurse who tested positive
for Ebola, was allowed to board a plane with an elevated temperature on


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your comments you just made to us was that if she was
wearing properly protected gear, she`s OK to travel. If she was not, she
should not have traveled. You just told us you don`t know. We need to
find that out.


HAYES: If there`s one thing that everyone agreed on at the hearing today,
that is everyone on the Republican side of the aisle is that the way to
solve the so-called Ebola crisis is by imposing a travel ban in the
countries where the outbreak originated.


UPTON: The president does have the legal authority to impose a travel ban
because of health reasons, including Ebola.

REP. STEVE SCALISE (R), LOUISIANA: I want to join with Chairman Upton in
urging the president to immediately institute a travel ban.

REP. MICHAEL BURGESS (R), TEXAS: I think perhaps this committee should
consider forwarding to the full house a request that we have a vote on
travel restriction because people are asking us to do that. And I think it
is -- they are exactly correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the question the American public is asking.
Why are we still allowing folks to come over here? And why once they`re
over here, is there no quarantine?

UPTON: Even Jamaica, as I read in the press earlier this week, has issued
a travel ban from folks coming from West Africa. Are you aware of that?


HAYES: But as the president explained, here`s why a travel ban is actually
a pretty bad idea. Under the status quo, a man in, say, Guinea who wants
to visit family in, say, Milwaukee, would have to go through screening
before getting on his flight. If he didn`t have a fever or other symptoms,
he`d be able to depart. And then on arrival, in one of the five U.S.
airports where 95 percent of West African passengers pass through, he`d be
screened again before being permitted to continue unto Milwaukee.

For travel ban in place, it would not necessarily keep this hypothetical
man from getting into the U.S. All he would have to do is, say, cross the
border from Guinea into Mali. And there would be no screening on
departure. No record of his having come from an affected country when he
landed in the U.S. The patient would then also have incentive to lie or
obfuscate, to health care workers and government officials.

Further, a travel ban would massively complicate and unquestionably delay
aid workers, doctors and others from getting in and out of West Africa
where they are desperately needed to contain the outbreak at its source.

The White House has so far resisted the growing calls for a travel ban.
Moments ago, after an emergency meeting on Ebola convened for the second
day in a row, President Obama said he would consider appointing an Ebola


OBAMA: It may make sense for us to have one person in part just so that
after this initial surge of activity we can have a more regular process
just to make sure that we`re crossing all the T`s and dotting all the I`s.


HAYES: I spoke to one of the members of the House committee that held the
Ebola hearing today, Congresswoman Diana DeGette, and I asked her what she


REP. DIANA DEGETTE (D), COLORADO: Well, I think we learned that there were
lessons learned. I think we learned that the Presbyterian Hospital in
Dallas made some mistakes and I think there were mistakes made by the CDC.
But the ultimate thing that I learned, number one, we need to work hard as
part of an international community to contain the outbreak of this virus in
West Africa. And number two, we need to concentrate on our first
responders, our emergency rooms, our ICUs, to make sure that they can
identify anybody who comes in with Ebola symptoms and then be able to train

HAYES: Do you think that you have a clear sense now of where the
breakdowns happen and what is now being done to rectify those breakdowns?
Because it seems inevitable, just given the math, that there will be
another Ebola patient who walks into some other emergency room during the
course of this West African outbreak.

DEGETTE: You know, I think that we have to prepare for the worst. And,
obviously, having another Ebola patient would be the worst. But I think
that people still need to realize that it`s very hard to transmit this.
You can`t just get it from the air like you can the flu or a cold. So
that`s important for people to realize.

We learned some good information today. We learned for example that --
well, we knew already that when Mr. Duncan came into the hospital in Dallas
and he said that he had come from West Africa and he had a fever, they sent
him home. And then we learned today that when he came back to the hospital
for the first two days that he was there and he was very, very sick in ICU,
Dr. Frieden told us that it`s likely that that`s when these nurses were
contaminated because the hospital wasn`t using all the protocols that it
could. So, that needs to be beefed up.

And then the final thing that I really learned is that the CDC needs to
educate its providers much more clearly and they also need to be much more
clear about these travel bans.

HAYES: Yes, talk about the travel bans. There has been -- there has been
a chorus, almost a unanimous chorus from the Republican Party, some
Democrats as well, calling for a travel ban. CDC director, director of NIH
said that`s a bad idea. What do you think? What did you learn about that
issue today?

DEGETTE: Well, when I said travel bans just now, I meant bans for the
people who are being watched, the 41 people who are being watched. Some
people are calling for travel bans from West Africa to the United States.

I, you know, Dr. Frieden said that`s on the table. And if he thinks that
could work, he`ll do it.

But what we need to realize is that we need to contain that virus in West
Africa. So, anybody who thinks that a travel ban is going to stop Ebola
from getting here is very, very foolish.

This is a chart that we put into the record. I don`t know if you can see


DEGETTE: We put this into the record at the hearing today and what it
shows is people fly from West Africa all around the world.

So, if we did a travel ban in the United States, people could still come to
Europe or South America or other places. And CDC has or the World Health
Organization has said that if we don`t stop Ebola in West Africa, 1.2
million people could be affected. Well, if that happens, you`re going to
have people with Ebola all around the world, whether you have a travel ban
or not. So, I think that`s a little bit of a red herring.

HAYES: So, do you think right now there`s sufficient resources being
devoted to that project, and there`s a sufficient political weight behind
the project of stopping the outbreak in West Africa as opposed to the
attention being paid, understandably, to those who have attracted the
disease here in the U.S.?

DEGETTE: Both the CDC and other witnesses that we had here today said that
there`s enough resources to go into West Africa. I think we kind of got a
late start building these clinics and sending people out. But I think,
now, the international community realizes to stop a real blossoming of
Ebola in that region. It`s going to take a concerted, international effort
than we`ve ever seen before.

HAYES: Are your colleagues handling this responsible? Do you think
there`s been a sober-minded approach to this? Or do you see a lot of
election year grandstanding and fear-mongering?

DEGETTE: Well, let me say this -- I`ve been on this committee for a long
time. I`ve seen czars. I`ve seen SARS. I`ve seen bird flu, H1N1. And I
knew that this could be happening.

So, on September 2nd, I asked the chairman to have a hearing on Ebola.
We`re not having a hearing now until two and a half weeks before the
election. And there were a lot of pretty out-there statements being made

And so, I would hope that because this is a serious issue facing this
country, I would hope everybody would work together in a bipartisan way.
Number one, we need to figure out what went wrong at the Dallas hospital.
We need to fix that. And we need to make sure every single health worker
in this country knows what to do. And, also, we need to really double down
on stopping this virus in West Africa.

HAYES: I just want to make sure I`m understanding this clearly -- you
requested from the Republican chair of the committee, of the subcommittee,
a hearing on Ebola September 2nd and there was no hearing until today?

DEGETTE: That`s correct. Yes.

HAYES: Meaning everyone went on recess, went back to their districts,
started campaigning and were called back to D.C. in the middle of recess,
only after these transmissions had happened?

DEGETTE: That`s right. In fact, I requested that hearing in early
September, and then again in October. So I`ve been asking for several
moments for this. And you`re right, it`s just a few weeks before the
election everyone is called back to do this hearing.

And, you know, I will say, September 2nd, that`s before Mr. Duncan showed
up. That`s before the nurses who were infected. So maybe we could have
gotten to the bottom of some of these protocols before that. I don`t know,
maybe none of this would have ever happened. But that`s why I`m concerned
and that`s I think why we need to work in a bipartisan way to fix this.

HAYES: Congresswoman DeGette, thank you very much.

DEGETTE: Thank you.


HAYES: As President Obama continues to resist Republican`s calls for a
travel ban, the kind of Ebola truthism is starting to emerge. Rand Paul
meeting with students in New Hampshire today told them the government isn`t
telling us the truth about Ebola.

As MSNBC`s Benjy Sarlin reported, Paul told his audience, quote, "This
thing is incredibly contagious. People are getting it fully gowned,
masked, and must be getting a very tiny inoculum, and they`re still getting
it, and then you lose more confidence because they`re telling you stuff
that may not be exactly valid and they`re downplaying it so much that it
doesn`t appear that they`re really being about it."

Senator Paul seems to think the only reason we`re not instituting a travel
ban is some kind of misplaced political correctness. Quote, "Everyone
shouldn`t be out spouting platitudes about hey we don`t want anybody`s
feeling to be hurt, so we`re going to let everybody continue to travel, as
if nothing`s going on."

That`s far from most radical theories circulating about Ebola. Wisconsin
Senator Ron Johnson was asked today if we should be worried about ISIS
infecting themselves and traveling to this country in order to use the
virus as a biological weapon. And this was his response.


SEN. RON JOHNSON (R), WISCONSIN: Well, it`s certainly something I`ve been
thinking about ever since this Ebola outbreak started. And you really
don`t even want to think about it, don`t even want to talk about it, but we
should do everything possible to defend ourselves against that possibility,
because I think that is a real and present danger.


HAYES: Real and present danger.

Joining me now, Ezra Klein, MSNBC policy analyst and editor in chief of

Ezra, I feel like we are watching all of the worst dysfunctions of American
politics play out before our eyes three weeks before an election in which
you have politicians basically looking for some kind of brute force
response that is going to play the best in election as opposed to what
would actually best-address the problem.

EZRA KLEIN, MSNBC POLICY ANALYST: Incredible levels of fear do not tend to
improve American politics, I think as a general rule.

And, yes, you have an issue happening now where you have politicians back
at home. People terrified. They`re coming to them. They want something

And the politicians do not have a good answer because politicians do not
have a good answer for Ebola. Ebola isn`t something you can legislate

The thing that makes an intuitive kind of sense of people and I want to --
and I think it should be said, that it`s clear why it does is a travel ban.
And so, that becomes the thing that number one, your constituency wants
from you. And number two, because now, the Obama administration and CDC
don`t appear willing to grant it.

Now, you can`t go back to people and say they`re fighting for what you
want. But those Democrats simply aren`t giving it to you. So, that
actually gives you a very easy way to seem like you`re doing something and
that there`s a political valence to why it isn`t actually getting done.

HAYES: Well, and I thought the president`s comments just now, I thought he
made a very good case. He said, I don`t -- there`s no ideological
objection to it, as some have intimidated. I mean, some people have been
saying, oh, his affinity is with Africa and that`s why he won`t institute a
travel ban. He`s being politically correct. He just says everyone who
studies infectious diseases has told me this is a bad idea and will make
the problem worse.

KLEIN: Yes. So, I think it`s worth saying. I think he gave a very good
explanation why travel bans are a bad idea.

But I want to put a slightly angle on it, which is that people, I think,
missed it. The most important thing for making Ebola -- for stopping Ebola
is West Africa. It`s not America.

I think people have a conception, a model of the disease. So, what`s
happening now, a disease cluster in Dallas. And the problem is starting
out in Dallas, including the nurse going on that plane. You`re going to
begin having a sort of rampage of Ebola here.

The issue with Ebola as Dr. Frieden told them (ph) is when you hit a
tipping point where you have more Ebola patients than you have effective
isolation points. We are so far from that in America, that it is not even
at the moment anything like a consideration.

The way that happens is not that it happens here. It`s not that it jumps
from West Africa to Dallas. It`s that it overwhelms West Africa, then it
overwhelms more of Africa. It gets into India. It goes from India.

You see that Congressman DeGette had that chart of travel. And it begins
to happen that way. And you get into a situation where the numbers are so
large, that disease protocols have, which are very, very effective, but
they are incredibly time consuming. They`re incredibly labor intensive and
they require the infrastructure of sufficient isolation wards, that that
fails you because you simply have too many patients.

So, if you want this to not become a global epidemic, if you want this not
to become a problem in America where it`s popping up in every city with an
airport, the thing you need to do is focus on West Africa and stop it

HAYES: That is exactly, exactly correct. Ezra Klein, thank you.

KLEIN: Thank you.

HAYES: The Texas school that rejected students from Nigeria because of
Ebola, ahead.


HAYES: New York Giants are scheduled to play the Dallas Cowboys on Sunday
in Dallas. And with satirical headlines like this, it was inevitable I
guess that someone was going to ask them about going there.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you worried because they had that breakout of Ebola
in Dallas? So, are you worried about like your team going in Dallas and,
maybe, like, catching Ebola or something like that? Are you guys going to
have to take medical precautions?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the Cowboys are going to get it first. So,
it`s to our advantage.


HAYES: Giants were actually briefed on Ebola ahead of their trip to Dallas
this weekend. But they should probably be more worried about trying to
beat a team that`s 5-and-1.


HAYES: Earlier this month, several applicants to Texas` Navarro College
located about 60 miles from Dallas, received some troubling news in the
mail. A letter dated October 2nd, five days after Thomas Duncan was put
into isolation in a Texas hospital reads, quote, "With sincere regret, I
must report that Navarro College is not able to offer you acceptance for
the spring 2015 term. Unfortunately, Navarro College is not accepting
international students from countries with confirmed Ebola cases."

That letter was sent to at least two Nigerian applicants. Today, the
school stood by the decision saying, quote, "At this time, we believe it is
the responsible thing to do to postpone our recruitment in those nations
that the Center for Disease Control and the U.S. State Department have
identified as at risk."

So, it looks like the Texas school is now blocking all students from
countries labeled, quote, "at risk" of Ebola. We know they`ve rejected
students from Nigeria for this reason.

But here`s the thing, Nigeria, Africa`s most populous country, has actually
done a very good job of containing Ebola. The disease was brought to
Nigeria over the summer, much in the same way it came to Texas, on a plane
by a Liberian man infected with a disease. The man flew into Lagos, the
transit hub of Africa, in what could have been a complete and total
disaster in one of the most heavily populated and poorest cities. Instead,
it looks as if to be a successful containment.

Nigeria has a population over 170 million people, eight times the
population of Guinea, Sierra Leone and Liberia combined. And yet, the
outbreak looks to being contained to just 20 people with eight fatalities.
Nigerians had no new cases since August 31 and is less than a week away
from being declared Ebola free by the World Health Organization.

It`s been such a successful effort, the CDC has sent researchers to the
country to study just how it was done.

Joining me now, Dr. Peter Hotez, founding dean, National School of Tropical
Medicine at Baylor College of Medicine.

Doctor, how did Nigeria that has a lot less money and less well-endowed
health infrastructure pull this off?


So, there are a lot of reasons why Nigeria has been so successful. First
and foremost, remember, Nigeria has not been suffering through horrific
conflict and civil war like the three most affected countries in West
Africa are now, Sierra Leone, Liberia, and Guinea. They went through
horrific civil war, total depletion of their health care infrastructure.

We`re looking at a very different situation for Nigeria, which is one of
the 30 wealthiest economies in the world. There`s a lot of health
disparities because there`s a lot of poor people, but there is an
infrastructure in place.

And then there`s another very good second reason that not many people know
about that was articulated very well to me recently by my colleagues Erin
Lavine (ph) and Rachel Lansdale (ph) at the Gates Foundation, the Bill and
Melinda Gates Foundation, which is that in 2012, they put together a polio
emergency response unit. So this was a presidential task force for
combating polio in this country. And they created an entire health care
infrastructure just for purposes of combating polio, which also included an
emergency operation center.

And so, when the first Ebola case hit from the individual coming in from
Liberia, they used that as a template to mobilize a similar type of
emergency operations unit. They used some of the same polio people that
were so successful in controlling polio, put them on and repurpose for
Ebola. They mobilized a thousand workers and caseworkers to identify
contacts, and they snuffed it out.

So, I think it`s a great example of how they took -- went from one case to
20 and then snuffed it out as opposed to what we`re seeing elsewhere in
West Africa.

HAYES: And it isn`t necessarily rocket science. It`s just contact
tracing. But it`s a certain brute force and care and labor and execution
of the plan that matters.

HOTEZ: Yes, exactly. That`s why we`ll never see an Ebola outbreak in the
United States, because we have a terrific health care infrastructure and a
great public health response unit, both at the federal level through
Centers for Disease Control, and excellent state and local health agencies.
They could be better supported and better financed. But we have the
ability to identify case contacts, and that`s why, you know, after Mr.
Duncan came into Dallas, we were able to trace all the contacts and there
have been no additional cases acquired in the community.

HAYES: Dr. Peter Hotez, thank you very much.

HOTEZ: Thank you.

HAYES: Bill O`Reilly and Jon Stewart debate white privilege. That
actually happened. We will play you the highlights.

Plus, it seems like there is no shortage of super entertaining state
political debates this week. Tonight, round two, Vermont gubernatorial
debate, this time with a call-in feature.



from you today. This is it. This is all we have to do in this
conversation. I want you to admit that there is such a thing as white
privilege. That`s all I want you to admit.

to say that.

STEWART: That`s it. Just a little -- I just -- I just want you to say I`m
-- I`m -- I`m terribly, terribly wrong on this.


HAYES: Bill O`Reilly and Jon Stewart debating white privilege sends like a
joke, but it happened on the "Daily Show" last night. O`Reilly has long
argued there`s just no such thing.

Last night, Stewart tried his best with persistence and magnanimity to try
to get Bill to understand the concept of white privilege and how it might
even apply --


STEWART: Do you think your upbringing gave you values and ethics?

O`REILLY: Yes, it did.

STEWART: You didn`t grow up rich.

O`REILLY: No. We didn`t have any money at all.

STEWART: You worked hard.

O`REILLY: Right.

STEWART: You lived where?

O`REILLY: Levittown.

STEWART: So it gave you a nice table, a cheap home, there is no
downpayments. Those houses are subsidized.

O`REILLY: No, they weren`t subsidized. They were sold to GIs and the GIs
got a mortgage they could afford. Look, you`re making a huge mistake.

STEWART: No, no, no, no. Let me just ask you a question. Did that
upbringing leave a mark on you even today?

O`REILLY: Of course, every upbringing leaves a mark on other people.

STEWART: Right. Could black people live in Levittown?

O`REILLY: Not at that time.

STEWART: So that, my friend, is what we call in the business white

O`REILLY: OK, that was in 19 -- no. That was in 1950, all right.

STEWART: In 1950. Were there black people living there in 1960?

O`REILLY: In Levittown?


O`REILLY: I don`t know.

STEWART: There weren`t.

O`REILLY: How do you know?

STEWART: Because I read up on it.

O`REILLY: You don`t know that. I can find somebody.

STEWART: My point is this.

O`REILLY: Why would you want to live there, it`s a nice place, but it`s
not like it`s Bell Air.

STEWART: It`s a place that built values. What you don`t understand is --

O`REILLY: There were millions of black neighborhoods that built values,
millions of them.

STEWART: But imagine growing up that you, as an American, as a G.I. who
fought in World War II couldn`t buy into that because you were less.

O`REILLY: It was unfair.

STEWART: And the residue of that continues today and that is white


HAYES: You may not be familiar with the story of O`Reilly`s hometown of
Levittown, New York. But it was a great example for Stewart to use to make
the point about white privilege. In fact, in February of this year, just
after his Super Bowl interview with President Obama, we here at ALL IN took
a close look at the place Bill O`Reilly once called home.


O`REILLY: I think you are much more friendly to a nanny state than I am.
I`m more of a self-reliance guy. You are more of a big government problems

HAYES (voice-over): During his sit down with President Obama, Bill
O`Reilly brought out one of his more famous themes. He`s a self-made man
and those who don`t subscribe to his political philosophy are looking for a
hand out. The president took issue with that.

OBAMA: You and I took advantage of certain things. I don`t know about
you, but I got some loans to go to college.

O`REILLY: No, I paid it out. See, that`s who I am.

OBAMA: I painted houses during the summer, too. It`s still 1-0.

HAYES: As Bill O`Reilly will be the first to tell you, the place that made
him is Levittown, New York.

O`REILLY: Nowhere else in this planet could -- a wise guy from Levittown
with no uncle in the business, no social skills at all, I`m sure you`d
agree, kissed nobody`s butt ever, rise up and command the position that I
command. That couldn`t happen in Switzerland. It couldn`t happen in
Japan. It happens in America.

HAYES: And though it might come as a shock to Bill O`Reilly, Levittown is
creation of government policy. In the suburban post-war boom, Long
Island`s Levittown was idyllic model.

ANNOUNCER: Back in 1950, it was easier to buy the middle class life.
Levittown, New York was the first with a mass produced suburban communities
complete with something called shopping centers.

HAYES: But Levittown wasn`t created by god, it`s created by a lot of hard
working people, a few smart developers and federal housing policy. After
the war, returning GIs were looking for affordable home to start their
adult lives. Among them was World War II veteran, Eugene Burnett, who, in
a 2003 PBS documentary, explained what happened to him and his wife when
they tried to buy a house in Levittown.

EUGENE BURNETT, WORLD WAR II VETERAN: I went up to the sales man. We`re
interested in getting a home. We`re interested in buying one. What are
the procedures? Is there an application to be filled out? So he looked at
me and looked around and he said -- he says listen, it`s not me, but the
owners of this development have not as yet decided to sell these homes to

ANNOUNCER: The FHA underwriters warned that the presence of even one or
two non-white families could undermine real estate values in the new
suburbs. These government guidelines were widely adopted by private

HAYES: The point is discriminatory federal policies, like those of the
Federal Housing Administration helped build the wealth in America suburbs
and they also helped build the poverty in America`s ghettos.

And it only started to end in 1968 with the passage of the Fair Housing
Act. Now, let`s be clear. This doesn`t take anything away from the grit,
determination and hard work of Bill O`Reilly or anyone who came out of
Levittown or any of the other countless suburbs across America.

We are all standing on a scaffolding of laws and government policy that is
so massive that it feels like the ground. This isn`t some kind of
speculation. It`s documented. In 2008, the Cornell poll asked people
whether they had ever used a government social program, 57 percent of
people said no.

As political scientist Susan Metler writes, 94 percent of those who denied
using a government program have benefitted from at least one. The average
responded had to use four. There are two types of people in America.

Those who recognize that they`re standing on top of something built to help
them and those who believe they are naturally giants.



HAYES: Few political races this midterm election had been quite as
enjoyable as the governor`s race in Vermont. The Green Mountain State with
its history of independence, tasty maple syrup is an inclusive state, so
everyone currently running for the office of governor, all seven of them,
keep getting included in every debate.

Last week, about inclusiveness meant, you got to meet candidates like self-
described revolutionary non-violent socialist, Peter Diamondstone of the
Liberty Union Party, the spectacled and the bearded independent candidate,
Bernie Peters, and half aficionado Cris Ericson, who had an important point
to make with the current governor, Peter Schemlin.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Second of all, I would reinstate all the rest areas
on the state highway that Peter Schemlin has removed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, we`ve actually been adding rest area
facilities. We built a new one in Bennington. I cut the ribbon on that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve taken them out in `91 and `89.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can assure you that there have been no rest areas
removed under my governor ship.


HAYES: Tonight, there is another debate, one where viewers could call in
and ask questions and Ms. Ericson and her hat proved to be the breakout
stars of the evening.


CRIS ERICSON: -- fletcher-free library. I went there recently. They
refused to allow adults to use headphones. They said children could use
them in the children`s library. On Chester Vermont, no headphones because
public libraries, and not all of them. Springfield, Vermont does allow

I want you to go out motorboats on Lake Champlain. Your kids could get
killed swimming in Lake Champlain and I want to go out and protest F-35
strike fighter jets because they`re designed to be dual capable to carry
nuclear bombs and we`ve got to stop nuclear proliferation. Thank you.


HAYES: Let me just say for the record, I think you should be able to wear
earphones inside a library and I think motorboats in the lake in which
people are swimming are kind of dangerous. From one governor`s debate to
another, we`ll have the Florida for the fallout over fan-gate next.



HAYES: It`s day two in Charlie Crist fan-gate in which we uncovered the
former governor of Florida`s long relationship with the wind generating
device. The details plus I`ll talk to one of the moderators at last
night`s debate next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right now, we want to take a shot of the stage here at
Bailey Hall in Broward County and as you can see the two candidates who
were invited to take part in this debate right now are not stepping up on
the stage. Ladies and gentlemen, we have an extremely peculiar situation
right now. We have Governor Charlie Crist.


HAYES: Last night, we brought you the breaking news of Florida Governor
Rick Scott`s near no-show in the gubernatorial debate over the presence of
a small fan under the podium of his opponent, former Florida Governor
Charlie Crist.

Scott eventually came out, but not before Crist took full advantage of the


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Crist has asked to have a fan, a small fan,
placed underneath his podium. The rules of the debate that I was shown by
the Scott campaign say that there should be no fan. Somehow, there is a
fan there and for that reason, ladies and gentlemen, I am being told that
Governor Scott --- really, will not join us for this debate. Ladies and
gentlemen --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can we say?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s the ultimate pleading of the fifth I`ve ever

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do the rules of the debate say that there should be
no fan?

CHARLIE CRIST: Not that I`m aware of.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So the rules that the Scott campaign just showed us
that says no electronics can be used --

CRIST: Are we really going to debate about a fan or are we going to talk
about education and the environment and the future of our state? I mean,


HAYES: Later in the debate, Governor Scott attempted to explain his side
of what has become to be known as fan-gate.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Scott, why the delay of coming out over a fan.

GOVERNOR RICK SCOTT: He said he wasn`t going to come -- he said he wasn`t
going to come to the debate.


HAYES: Afterwards, the Crist campaign posted a copy of the contract they
signed to the rules of debate, which has a hand-written asterisk adding
with understanding the debate host will address any temperature issues with
a fan if necessary.

As documented by Molly Ball, Charlie Crist has had a long relationship with
fans. He seemed to pull the same stunt with his gubernatorial opponent in
his 2006 debate. His opponent, Tom Galleger, looked at Crist fan and said
that`s not fair, get another fan in here or I`m walking out.

The debate was delayed several minutes until the second fan could be found.
After last night`s debate, Governor Rick Scott`s press secretary said that
Scott never refused to take the stage and debate. But Charlie Crist can
bring his fan, microwave and toaster to the debates.

Joining me now, Frank Denton, he was the panel of moderators at last
night`s debate,. All right, Frank, so what happened? What happened?
Please explain.

Governor Crist people agreed to not have a fan there. It was written and
actually said the word fan on it. I don`t know why. But that was what the
debate sponsor set up. And then suddenly -- and they had this asterisk if
it got too warm in the hall.

So the organizers turned the air-conditioning down so it was one point just
before the debate, 66 degrees up there on the stage under the lights. But,
still, one of Crist`s people went in and installed this fan. So Governor
Scott`s people kept him off and they were negotiating this for about an
hour before the debate.

HAYES: So here`s how I read the situation. The Scott camp knows that he
has this thing about needing to have a fan. It`s clearly a comforted
thing. There`s a long documented history. So Scott people think we`re
going to screw him. We`re going to negotiate debate terms so he can`t have
a fan. And the Crist people sneak a fan out there and then the Scott
people are totally flummoxed. Is that the way it went down?

DENTON: Well, we don`t know. I don`t know why it was in the agreement not
to have any electronic boxes including a fan. I don`t know. I actually
asked the debate sponsors about that and hope to get an answer by tomorrow,
but it was part of the agreement that Crist signed and then Scott was
sickened to the rules. I suspect both were trying to knock the other one
off of their political equilibrium.

HAYES: Were you at any point concerned you were going to have to vamp for
the hour that was budgeted or call the thing or?

DENTON: Well, we were over there kind of looking concerned and exchanging
notes and trying to figure out what to do especially if Governor Scott
didn`t come out, would we talk to Governor Crist for an hour.

Now we certainly didn`t -- we`re going to turn it over to a campaign speech
for him so we would have challenged him as we did later and we also
challenged Governor Scott, but fortunately Governor Scott`s people thought
better of it and sent him out.

I personally think both people lost some points on it. Maybe Governor
Scott lost a few more for kept keeping us waiting 6-1/2 minutes. It was a
statewide television audience.

HAYES: Is there now is going to be another debate. I`m told CNN is co-
sponsoring that one. There`s been a clear no-fan policy given to Charlie
Crist. So I guess we`re going to see how he performs without the fan that
is clearly a thing that he cares a lot about. Although I have to say why
anyone would care about whether someone had a fan or not continues to
escape me.

DENTON: I don`t know if you`ve seen "Buzzfeed," but they put out a slide
show of about 20 occasions where Governor Crist is there and there`s always
a fan. And they point to it with arrows, but it was quiet. We didn`t hear
anything. No one can tell whether the fan was on or not.

There was a little noise, but nobody thought it was from the fan. So we
weren`t sure. I`m riding a column now for Sunday about, it`s too bad that
all of this attention was focused on such an issue and both of them really
are at fault for it, I think.

And there are so many more important things that are facing the people of
Florida. And that their chief executive officer candidates would be
reduced to arguing about a cheap fan is really beneath the state frankly.

HAYES: We`re going to talk about some of the substance of that race ahead.
Frank Denton, thank you very much. Why the Florida governor`s race is the
worst one in the country next.


HAYES: Fangate was just the latest event in a race that "Rolling Stone`s"
Jeb Lund called everything that was wrong with American democracy. Joining
me now are my colleague, Steve Kornacki, host of "UP" on MSNBC and Jennifer
Carrol, former lieutenant governor of Florida in Governor Rick Scott`s
administration, author of "When You Get There."

Jennifer, can I start with you? I remain flummoxed as to how Rick Scott is
the governor of Florida to begin with given the fact that his record had
some real big negatives to it. He just didn`t seem to be at all a natural
politician in any way, shape or form.

FMR. LT. GOV. JENNIFER CARROLL (R), FLORIDA: Well, your question is the
same that a lot of Floridians have and during the time that the governor
ran in 2010, his opponent in the primary election was a question mark for
the voters as well.

So the governor came across as a non-politician, an outsider that will
bring a change to government, which as it turns out, the change end up
being the good old boy system back in place again.

HAYES: What do you mean by that?

CARROLL: Well, I depict in my book, the good old boy system that continued
to exist with the typical political maneuvers and back stabbing that occurs
behind closed doors, the favoritism that occurs in politics when the good
old boys are still in place and that`s exactly what we have in the
government in the state of Florida.

The Tea Party got behind Governor Scott when he was running because he was
going to change all of that. He was going to run the state as a business
and have accountability measures and, unfortunately, it went back to the
same old system.

HAYES: And the irony here is that he ran this big business, made a lot of
money off of it and it was also a business that entered into the largest
plea for Medicare, Medicaid fraud ever in the history of the United States
government over a billion dollars ended up being paid in fine.

He was here while this -- while some of the activity happened. He was
never convicted. He took the fifth. But then he took the money that he
made and he plowed it into -- I mean, a big part of why he`s governor is he
just spent a ton of money.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST, "UP": Well, it was sort of the right time,
right place situation. He had the money and he caught the Tea Party wave.
He created this group. I think it was conservatives for health care
reform, something like that opposing putting big money out there and
putting big money out there making himself this conservative movement.

HAYES: He was running ads nationally against health care reform.

KORNACKI: Right into the campaign, and the former attorney general of
Florida, also a former congressman from Florida was somebody who brought,
as you say is, brought history to this race as well. He had been one of
the prosecutors in the Clinton impeachment, lost the Senate race in 2000 as

He had history, too. Scott I will say he had a very low point in about two
years ago. Now it`s back up to the mid-40s. . And the big reason for
that is there`s a poll out that shows this race dead even. The reason why
his numbers have come back is I don`t think optimism is the right word. If
you ask Floridians, do you think it`s the right direction? They say, yes,
it`s 47-27.

HAYES: Yes, the irony is that part of it has to do with the macro economy.
Florida has created about 500,000 jobs during his term, which is a hundred
thousand less than the 700,000 that have been estimated. But are voters
skeptical of Charlie Crist?

CARROLL: Some voters are skeptical of Charlie Crist particularly
Republican voters, but yes, voters that Republican and Democrat voters that
are also sceptical of Governor Scott. So the question is where do they go?

Well, there is a third party candidate and libertarian, Adrian Weidly that
is picking up steam with the voters and he`s polling in double digits now.
As a matter of fact, after the debate last night, he came out and stated I
am the viable option for these two people.

HAYES: And I don`t need a fan and I won`t negotiate over details.
Jennifer Carroll, Steve Kornacki, thank you very much. Catch Steve show
weekends at 8:00 Eastern here on MSNBC. That is ALL IN for this evening.
"RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW: You can just call it Rachel show.


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