All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, October 23rd, 2014
Read the transcript from the Thursday show
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: October 23, 2014
Guest: Tom Clark, Paul Dewar, Devin Nampiaparampil, Chris King, Benjamin
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.
HAYES: A standing ovation for the sergeant at arms who stopped a gunman
inside Canada`s parliament as police release new details and footage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the suspect exits bearing his firearm, people run
HAYES: Tonight, Canada comes to terms to what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday, we lost our innocence.
HAYES: As police tried to calm fears.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Though we are calling on everyone to remain vigilant, I
want to stress that you are safe. Your families are safe.
HAYES: Then, a potential case of Ebola in New York City.
The Justice Department slams the leaks from the Ferguson grand jury.
Alaska`s only congressman doubles down on comments he made about suicide at
a high school where a student had committed suicide.
And a backlash to the backlash. Renee Zellweger and Hollywood hypocrisy.
ALL IN starts right now.
HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.
And tonight, we have striking new video of the gunman in Ottawa and a whole
lot of clarification on just what happened in the horrible attack in the
capital city yesterday. More on that video you`re seeing in a moment.
The Canadian government was back in parliament this morning, back in that
same building, mourning the fallen and celebrating the bravery of those who
managed to bring the gunman down, including the sergeant at arms, Kevin
Vickers, seen here in this video, just moments after he shot and killed the
assailant with the gun still in his hand.
Vickers, who holds a ceremonial position, fought back tears today as he was
celebrated by members of parliament as he entered the chamber.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The Canadian prime minister addressed the body saying Canada would
not be intimidated and urging lawmakers to increase the scope and power of
terrorism and surveillance laws.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN HARPER, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: In recent weeks, I have been
saying that our laws and police powers need to be strengthened in the area
of surveillance, detention and arrests. They need to be much strengthened.
And I assure you, Mr. Speaker, that work, which is already underway, will
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And Harper cross the chamber and in a rare moment for this very,
very partisan leader, shook hands and hugged the leaders of other parties.
The opposition leader then took to the podium.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS MULACIR, MP, NEW DEMOCRATIC PARTY: Let us not become more
suspicious of our neighbors. Let`s not be driven by fear because in
Canada, love always triumphs over hate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: But even as Canadian leaders came together in parliament, the
capital remained tense. Earlier, in morning, as Prime Minister Harper and
his wife laid flowers at the very same National War Memorial, in honor of
the Corporal Nathan Cirillo, the soldier killed yesterday, flowers were
laid. An arrest was made just a few feet from the prime ministry. You see
it right there.
Following the emotional mourning, the parents of the gunman Michael Zehaf-
Bibeau released this heartbreaking statement, "He has lost everything and
he leaves behind a family that must feel nothing but pain and sorrow. We
send our deepest condolences to them, although words seem pretty useless.
We are both crying for them," that is the victims, "we are so sorry."
In a press conference this afternoon, Canadian officials gave a detailed
timeline about yesterday`s events. Officials in a remarkable display of
transparency laid out everything they knew. Say witnesses reported seeing
the shooter around 9:50 a.m., coming from behind the war memorial where he
fired two shots, killing Corporal Nathan Cirillo, a soldier guarding the
memorial, and the first calls to 911 came in just two minutes later.
This footage, here, shows Michael Zehaf-Bibeau running into and getting
into the car by the National War Memorial moments after that shooting.
From there, officials say he drove off and parked his vehicle at the side
entrance to parliament where security cameras captured his movements.
The commissioner of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Bob Paulson,
described what happened next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB PAULSON, RCMP: The video that you`ll see is the scene of the entrance
to the parliamentary precinct. You`ll see individuals who seem to be
recoiling westward down the street from the incidents at memorial.
You`ll see, shortly, a vehicle pull up. The circle indicates the car as it
approaches. One of the pedestrians even approaches the car. As the
suspect exits bearing his firearm, people run away.
This is the suspect running through the bollards and up towards this block.
He runs towards those vehicles that are parked there. The lead vehicle is
the minister`s vehicle that was occupied by the driver. The suspect goes
around in front of the car. There`s some exchange with the driver. The
vehicle backs up slightly. The driver exits the vehicle and runs away.
The suspect then drives toward center block. It is at this point that
those actions were noticed by our CMP officers. Our officers are in
pursuit and as he gets to the door of the center block, there`s an exchange
of fire with the House of Commons security officers. Our officers back up
slightly as the shooting takes place, and then pursue him inside.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: In addition to laying out a detailed timeline, officials gave us a
lot of other new information. First, confirming there was definitively
just one shooter, as far as authorities know. And, also, that yesterday`s
events have no known connection to Monday`s incident in which a man
apparently devoted to violent jihad named Martin Couture-Rouleau crashed
his car into two Canadian troops and drove off, killing one.
Officials also confirmed that Michael Zehaf-Bibeau, 32-years-old, is a
Canadian citizen and may have Libyan citizenship, as well. "The Globe and
Mail" reports he, quote, "was the son of Bulgasem Zehaf, a Quebec
businessman who appears to have fought in 2011 in Libya, and Susan Bibeau,
the deputy chairperson of a division of Canada`s immigration and refugee
Officials say he had been in Ottawa since October 2nd, staying in a
homeless shelter downtown and contrary to earlier reports, he was not on
the list of 90 people being monitored by Canadian authorities. And his
passport was not taken by authorities. In fact, he was in Ottawa applying
for a passport and seems to have been flagged.
Joining me now is chief political correspondent for Global Television
Network, Tom Clark.
And, Tom, a lot more information today about who this was, still a lot of
questions about what might have motivated him, how long he was plotting it
and how this came about.
TOM CLARK, GLOBAL TELEVISION NETWORK: Absolutely. And these questions are
going to continue for some time, Chris.
What we know, though, is that he was living more on the margins of society
than we knew. This guy was a drifter. As we were saying last night, he
was known to police, possession of drugs. At the homeless shelter today,
we were talking to some people and other people at the shelter were saying
that he was also an addict.
So, here was a guy who as I said lived on the margins of society, became
radicalized in the process. But what were his connections beyond that?
Was he connected to some sort of group? Was he online with other sort of
lone wolf jihadists? That we don`t know. And it certainly changes the
complexion of the response, depending on what we know.
HAYES: Yes, that seems a key point here. Last night, there were some
reports that had indicated the possibility of some coordination online with
Monday`s attack, the police seem fairly definitive, at least at this
moment, they have reason to believe that right now.
What is the policy response in terms of this list that police addressed
today? The folks that they`re not allowing to travel, whose passports
they`ve confiscated. What is being done in that area, as far as we know?
CLARK: That is being looked at. The government is addressing it, because
there is that conundrum. I mean, if we`re going to say we`re going to
seize your passport so that you can`t go and terrorize in Iraq and Syria,
it just lets them terrorize here at home. And it`s an issue not only for
Canada, but I`d suggest an issue for the United States, as well.
If you have preventive detention, as they do in the United Kingdom, that is
something where Canada is going to start looking at the possibility of
doing. At the moment, the law doesn`t really allow us to do it.
In fact, in one of the cases, Chris, the Mounties suggested to our crown
prosecutors, which are like your district attorneys, that they place
somebody under custody and the crown said there wasn`t enough evidence.
So, they couldn`t apprehend him.
The law has to be clarified on this. But it is a traditional push-pull
between rights and freedom, security and freedom, that is going to play out
here in the next couple of days.
HAYES: Yes. And we know, obviously, the Prime Minister Stephen Harper had
already proposed a package of what he was calling anti-terrorism laws
before this incident and there will be some pretty spirited debate, I would
imagine, to come in Canada on precisely that.
Tom Clark, thank you very much.
CLARK: You bet.
HAYES: As we said, the Canadian government was back at work in parliament
today just one day after the attack. And I got a chance to speak to Paul
Dewar. He`s a member of parliament. I asked him what the mood was like
PAUL DEWAR, MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: It was a very solemn day and, in many
ways, a very anxious day in many ways. I`m the local member of parliament
here in Ottawa. And my riding, what you would call your district in the
States, includes parliament. And I walked -- I decided to walk to work
And as I walked to work, I could feel, you know, a lot of people, you know,
turning to each other and looking at each other and giving each other, you
know, a hug and a smile and saying, are you OK?
But going into that parliament after what happened yesterday, you know,
carried a lot of emotion, frankly. And it was a difficult day, but an
important one for us to continue to do our work and our business and to
show the country and our citizens that we will continue on and we will keep
HAYES: What political or policy conclusions do you think are being drawn?
We have seen in other countries, sometimes there`s a move towards stricter
measures, changes to the law, changes to enforcement posture and then,
sometimes, years later, those changes were regretted or weren`t entirely
Where do you see that conversation in a policy level right now in Canada?
DEWAR: Really, really important question. I`m with the official
opposition of the NEW Democratic Party. The conservative government has
brought in measures, we think, go a little too far when it comes to
protecting civil rights and, as you can appreciate, we`d have to have a
So, we were having that conversation, interestingly enough, before these
events happened. And that will continue. And, you know, it`s really
important after, you know, an event like this, that we don`t overreact,
that we do take time to reflect on what happened and be sober about how we
So, right now, the conversation is around, do we give the state more powers
to -- oh, we already have powers, actually, to pre-arrest people that we
think might be involves in terrorism. The government has taken passports
away, in this case, the individual wasn`t able to get a passport. He was
But there was discussion around, do we give analogous to your CIA, our CSIS
-- our CSIS more powers to be able to, you know, to listen on people`s
conversation and gather data. You know, I`m very concerned that, right
now, we are in a charged atmosphere and really want to take time to, as I
said, be sober about this.
I mean, look, the city I live in, where I grew up, I`m a hometown Ottawa
boy, had nine homicides last year. We have to make sure that, you know,
where we see safety prevails. We have when we take pride in that here in
When we see things like yesterday happen, we say, OK, well, what`s a smart
thing to do? What was it we were dealing with and not just react? So,
this conversation was happening before the events of yesterday, will
continue, and the policy options are, frankly, do we give more power to the
spy agency and to the police? And if so, what safeguards are there to make
sure that that isn`t abused, frankly. And that`s the debate that we`re
going to be having in the next couple of weeks.
HAYES: Paul Dewar, as you heard, a member of the official opposition of
the Democratic Party, member of parliament for Ottawa, great thanks, sir.
HAYES: We learned this afternoon that New York City might be looking at
its first case of Ebola. The details on how it`s preparing and what went
into action today, ahead.
HAYES: Alaska Congressman Don Young has decided to offer his own theories
on the causes of suicide in front of a bunch of high school students whose
classmate had just committed suicide. It went about as well as you would
imagine. And then he made it worse. We`ll give you the latest, ahead.
HAYES: This hour, there`s a 33-year-old in New York City hospital who has
manifested symptoms consistent with Ebola.
And while he might end up in the same situation as 88 other suspected cases
of Ebola in New York City since October 6th, most of which were easily
ruled out, this man, Craig Spencer, is a doctor from Doctors Without
Borders having come from Guinea, one of the three affected countries in
Africa, where he treated Ebola patients. And that obviously puts him in
quite a high-risk category. And New York officials say he is being closely
monitored in an isolation room in Bellevue Hospital with test results
expected by 3:00 p.m.
What is truly remarkable about this story is how this case has been treated
thus far, as a study in contrast with the botched case of now-deceased
Thomas Duncan and Dallas Presbyterian Hospital.
Over the past 2 1/2 months, America`s largest, most-crowded city, New York,
has prepared, trained and drilled in potential for an Ebola case, putting
in procedures and protocols for this very day. In full disclosure, my
father works for the New York City Department of Health.
But New York`s preparation looked to be truly impressive. At JFK Airport,
according to a detailed account by "Business Insider", travelers from
affected countries are questioned, their temperatures measured with an
infrared temperature gun.
Bellevue Hospital is New York`s designated facility for possible cases. It
has four isolation rooms with nine more rooms available if necessary.
From failures in both Dallas and in Spain, nurses in New York have been
trained on how to put on and take off personal protective equipment.
Additionally, the city`s department of health has sent patients,
undercover, pretending to have Ebola symptoms and with a plausible travel
history into all 11 city hospitals to evaluate their performance. The CDC
communicated a host of procedures to New York City hospitals, which put
those procedures into place on August 11th.
So, here`s how all of this training and preparation came today. Dr. Craig
Spencer suffering from symptoms of 103 degree fever and nausea, called 911.
Per protocol, Ebola was recognized as a possibility, and a specialized EMS
unit was dispatched. With EMS crews responding wearing suits, which are
Hazmat suits that cover the entire body.
Clad in those hazmat suits, FDNY hazardous material specialist sealed off
his fifth-floor apartment around noon, according to "The New York Post".
Video obtained from newyorkpost.com shows Dr. Spencer being transported to
Bellevue Hospital from his Hamilton Heights apartment in an ambulance, with
a police escort.
EMS hazmat units transferred him, according to the New York`s Department of
According to New York City Department of Health, Dr. Spencer`s girlfriend
is healthy and in quarantine.
And just hours ago, New York Mayor Bill de Blasio addressed this possible
first case of Ebola in New York City.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D), NEW YORK: The important facts to note here
without going, again, into too much detail, the individual in question is a
doctor, has been able to work very closely with public authorities in
providing information, a very careful protocol has been in place now for
weeks. This protocol was followed every step of the way, including the
initial contact with the individual.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, Dr. Devi Nampiaparampil, clinical assistant
professor of rehabilitative medicine at NYU School of Medicine.
So, there has been behind the scenes, as we`ve all been watching this,
right? There`s been a fairly intensive effort and communication at all the
hospitals in New York, because I think there`s a general sense among
officials if it`s going to end up anywhere, it`s going to end up in New
DR. DEVI NAMPIAPARAMPIL, NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: Especially with all the
place that come into New York. I mean, people have been preparing for some
time and there`s all the things that you mentioned which I`m very
optimistic about, but a lot of hospitals are actually going beyond that.
So, they`ve created some Web communities. I mean, think about in general
if you`re trying to learn something new, some new technique, or if you have
a question, you look on the Internet, right? So they`ve created these
online communities where people can get more support about how to manage
Ebola immediately. And in terms of mock trials and mock patients, that`s
also a good thing.
HAYES: So, doctors, nurses, health care providers can go on a sort of
message board and ask questions about, you know, how do you put on this
piece of gear? What do you do if you have this person presenting this
symptom and emergency?
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Exactly. So people can get their questions answered
immediately. And on top of that, just the way the Pentagon created its
strike team, many hospitals have also created their own strike teams within
the hospital specialists. So, if there`s any question of anybody having
Ebola, they can come and answer questions immediately and answer questions
or take over care.
HAYES: I was struck today about just in how this is played out, and,
again, I should say my father has been involved in this. I`ve been seeing
it from behind the scenes at some level. But the importance of early
identification as possible, because what you had in Presbyterian is he
comes in and gets sent home with antibiotics, what you have in Spain is a
nurse just sitting in an emergency room, according to reports, telling
people I have Ebola, and not being put in an isolation chamber. It`s
impressive to me that they got an EMT unit equipped to this --
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Exactly. And that this person also didn`t go to the ER,
you know, he called and he let them know that he might have been exposed to
HAYES: That`s the other side of it, right? This is someone who`s come
back from treating people with Ebola, knows exactly what the risks are
presumably and is probably flagging it ahead of time.
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Yes, so the people in the ER did not get exposed. I mean,
even the people who came to respond, the first responders were protected,
for the most part. So, I am very optimistic about the way that was handled
compared to other situations, of course.
HAYES: You know, part of that, I think what we`re seeing is a learning
curve. And there was a lot of criticism of that initial response and I
think it was warranted because it was not handled well, and there`s a man
who passed away, and possibly who`s life could have been saved had
intervention happen earlier.
At the same time, Dallas Presbyterian has no experience with Ebola. I
mean, American hospitals in general, aside from this very specialized unit
in Nebraska and Emory and NIH, don`t have much experience.
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Well, I think you`re right about the learning curve, too,
because in Dallas, I mean, I don`t think people would have expected to see
Ebola. Of course, we didn`t have a single case of Ebola at the United
States at that point, right? So, here in this situation, we`re learning
from everybody else`s mistake. The CDC has also revised its guidelines.
The Pentagon formed that strike team. There are a lot of different things
that are contributing to our having a better response, I would think.
HAYES: There`s also this practice makes perfect aspect. Someone that I
know who had spent time in Nigeria and in Kenya had talked about how she
was back in the U.S. and had malaria and her treatment wasn`t great because
her doctors don`t have a ton of experience in the U.S. in treating malaria,
whereas doctors in Africa actually do, and in Nigeria and Kenya and the two
countries that she had been. And I thought of that here, right?
I mean, these are people who are going from zero to crash test in a very
short period of time.
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Exactly. I mean, I`ve always thought that we should
recruit some of the West African doctors, especially the ones who have had
Ebola in the past, Ebola survivors, because they can`t catch it again. So,
why not draw their expertise?
HAYES: Dr. Devi Nampiaparampil, thank you very much.
NAMPIAPARAMPIL: Thank you.
HAYES: All right. I`ll talk to the attorney for Michael Brown`s family
about the cascade of leaks that have been coming out of the Ferguson grand
HAYES: U.S. Justice Department is blasting a series of leaks we`ve been
documenting on the show coming out of the Ferguson grand jury as it
investigates the shooting death of unarmed teenager Mike Brown by Ferguson
police officer, Darren Wilson.
Over the last several days, these leaks have made their way to a number of
big media outlets and New York Times" and "Washington Post", "The St. Louis
Post-Dispatch". Leaks all seemingly have the intention or at least the
effect of bolstering Officer Darren Wilson`s account of what happened when
he shot Brown on August 9th.
The Justice Department has issued a strong statement condemning the leaks,
saying, quote, "The department considers the selective release of
information in this investigation to be irresponsible and highly troubling.
Since the release of the convenience store footage, there seems to be an
inappropriate effort to influence public opinion about this case."
That convenience store reference is about what happened on August 15th when
Ferguson police released surveillance video of Mike Brown allegedly
stealing cigars from a convenience store, even though the Justice
Department urged Ferguson police not to do so.
Meanwhile, Darren Wilson`s attorney denies having anything to do with the
source of the leak, saying, quote, "We were not responsible for any leaks
to media. Further, we are not in possession of any of the disclosed
reports or the investigative report."
But it is very clear that these recent leads, according to "The Huffington
Post`s" Ryan Reilly, has left Attorney General Eric Holder, quote,
"exasperated" are coming from somewhere.
There`s a little bit of a clue about where the leaks are coming from in
this "L.A. Times" piece by Matt Pierce where he says that Chris King,
managing editor of "St. Louis American", said law enforcement officials had
offered him the leaks, saying they had been briefed on the evidence and it
didn`t look good for Michael Brown supporters. King`s paper, which is
geared towards African-American readers, declined the information.
Instead, the paper responded with this editorial that reads in part, quote,
"`The Times` and `Post` run with this anonymous third party hearsay,
tensions are high that preparations for riots if Wilson walks free are
discussed in sober terms in local and national media, and on street
corners. The editors of these powerful publications have shown a lapse in
judgment and ethics that is not only shameful, but actually dangerous."
Benjamin Crump, the Brown family`s attorney, will be joining me in a few
But with me now is Chris King, managing editor at the "St. Louis American."
Chris, my ears perked up when I heard about this and you`re describing it
to Matt Pears. Can you tell me how you were approached and by whom about
CHRIS KING, "ST. LOUIS AMERICAN": Yes, Chris. I`ve been doing the
archaeology on this. It was old news to me. It was August 22nd was the
conversation I had. I had a mutual friend with the Del1 Wood police
officer who had obviously had a lot of information that had not yet been
He was telling a mutual friend that he had not backed away from the protest
scene because the evidence was not going to look good for Michael Brown. I
could have pursued that, but I didn`t want to run that version of events.
I later was approached by a federal official who I literally bumped into
and this person told me something very similar. Said something we read in
the "New York Times" and the "Post Dispatch," namely, that there were a
number of black witnesses that would back up Officer Wilson`s story.
I also told her I wasn`t interested in digging into a partial release of a
selective group of information and then later, a police officer who I have
a good relationship with talking about something else launched into a long
He said he had received that had, again, very similar details of what we`ve
seen. I certainly could have picked his brain and ran a report with a week
authority. But I think the authority is too weak. I couldn`t have used
HAYES: Why not? This is information. This is a hotly contested case and
people run articles from grand jury leaks all the time? Why do you choose
not to do it?
KING: Well, you know, it`s humbling working in the minority media in a
city like St. Louis. It is so racist in so many ways because we can`t run
anonymous reports. No one will believe them.
When we cite names, sometimes are daily paper will call the source and say
did they really say it. So we`re not taken seriously when we use name
I don`t have the option of using anonymous sources. It`s very arrogant.
You`re asking the public to believe somebody who told somebody told me and
you`re supposed to believe me. I don`t have kind of arrogance.
HAYES: There is a key point here is that all the people you`re talking
about are people that were in law enforcement community. It sounds like
two local officials, one federal, who had been briefed, but weren`t sitting
in the grand jury room.
It seems the chain here is a grand jury is happening, someone is briefing
law officials about what transpired in the grand jury and what people are
saying there, those people who have then been briefed are then talking to
KING: The federal official was not a law enforcement official, I didn`t
say that and she`s not. I don`t know where these people are getting their
information. I thought they were disrespecting a legal process.
I thought it was a trial and I believe that`s actually what the shooter
would be better for him. He`s going to go into history, if the way we
predict, as a goat, as a bad guy, when maybe a full airing of the evidence
would exonerate him.
HAYES: Chris King, thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
Joining me now is Benjamin Crump, attorney for the family of Michael Brown.
Mr. Crump, your reaction and Mike Brown`s family reaction to the stories
that we`ve seen over the last several days with some key information coming
out from the grand jury?
BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR THE BROWN FAMILY: It is very disappointing,
Chris, because all Michael Brown`s family has asked from day one is equal
justice for their son.
The concept of due process that this notion of all the laws and the legal
proceedings will be fair for them just as it is for the police officer.
They want to have a trial to have the truth come out of what happened where
the evidence could be vetted and everybody could see what happened
transparent and people could accept it. Nobody has confidence in this
grand jury. Nobody trust it
HAYES: Do you think -- there is a theory that I have heard from several
people and I want to give it to you to hear how you feel about it. That,
essentially, what is happening is there is a conclusion that there will be
And that in order to essentially prepare the ground for that to happen, in
obviously a very tense environment, a lot of frustration, anger about this
That these leaks are bag leaked so that people have a chance to absorb this
information as a kind of strategic information about how to organize the
aftermath. What do you think of that?
CRUMP: I`ve heard that rumor as well, Chris. First of all, I want to say
that the prosecutor in Saint Louis County made a choice to have this secret
grand jury proceeding. We wouldn`t be dealing with any of this had he done
this the way all lawyers have done these cases.
When you have probable cause, the prosecutor`s job is to charge, and when
he charges him, then the police officer can come and defend and it would be
very public and very transparent and you don`t have to prepare the
community for anything.
But when you go down this road where you`re going to have this secret
proceeding and then, as the family has believed from day one, you are not
going to indict the police officer, then the family, the citizens of
Ferguson and people all across America, says this isn`t fair.
And that`s when you have the greatest problem, Chris. When people don`t
believe the system is fair for their community. They say they have to take
matters into their own hands. And nobody wants that. Everybody wants to
believe that the citizen -- the system works fair for my children, too.
HAYES: But what could be fairer than prosecutors come before a grand jury
and presented all the evidence and actually had Darren Wilson testify and
they just didn`t meet the standard necessary.
CRUMP: Well, you know what, Chris, I want you to think about what you just
asked and think about the situation was reversed? Would Michael Brown,
Jr., get a grand jury proceeding or would he just get charged? Why are the
rules different when our children are dead on the ground?
There`s more than enough probable cause? You have the police officer`s
version against seven eyewitness versions. And all of them say hands were
up. That`s a factual dispute.
When you have a factual dispute, you take it to a jury. You charge him.
You let the jury decide it. You let America and the world see it so it`s
transparent and everybody says we have this dispute, but we`ve resolved the
dispute based on the constitution of the United States.
Not on this discretion of the prosecutor to say I`m not going to recommend
any charges to the grand jury. Next time, it happens to a young person of
color in Ferguson, we want the prosecutor to do the same exact thing. I`m
not going to recommend any charges. I`m just going to be extra fair.
HAYES: Benjamin Crump, thank you very much. There are breaking
developments in the story brought to you early in the program. A patient
in New York City being tested for the Ebola virus. Stay with us.
HAYES: Breaking news at this hour, a patient in New York City has in fact
tested positive for Ebola. As we told you before, the 33-year-old man who
is in a New York City hospital had manifested symptoms consistent with
Craig Spencer is a doctor from the non-profit global organization, Doctors
Without Borders, having come from Guinea, one of the three affected
countries in West Africa, where he was treating Ebola patients.
He suffered from symptoms of 103-degree fever and nausea and called 911
today. Video obtained from newyorkpost.com shows Dr. Spencer being
transported to Bellevue Hospital from his Hamilton Heights apartment in an
ambulance with a police escort and a specialized EMT unit that has that
kind of protective gear you see there.
They were dispatched to the apartment. According to New York City
Department of Health, Dr. Spencer`s girlfriend is healthy, but is in
quarantine. CDC officials are on their way to New York City as well and
health care workers have spreading across New York City to trace anyone who
may have come in contact with Dr. Spencer in recent days.
Mayor Bill Deblasio and Governor Cuomo are holding a news conference at
9:00 p.m. If you want to learn more about Doctors Without Borders, go to
doctorswithoutborders.org. They do absolutely exceptional work taking on
tremendous risk. Tonight, a reminder of just how brave those doctors are.
HAYES: All right. Once again, we have breaking news at this hour. Dr.
Craig spencer, a 33-year-old doctor has been confirmed tested positive for
Ebola just moments ago. He was taken to the hospital earlier today. He
had called 911.
It was determined according to a New York City protocol that had been set
up over the last few months, that he was a likely possible Ebola patient.
He was reporting a 103-degree fever. New York City dispatched a special
form of EMT to his apartment.
At that apartment, he was taken by EMT workers who were equipped with
special gear to protect them from possible transmission. Dr. Spencer was
put into an ambulance and driven to Bellevue Hospital.
Bellevue Hospital in Manhattan has been identified by New York City health
officials as the hospital to specialize in Ebola treatment. They have been
doctors there who have gotten specialized training in the subject.
They have created isolation units. There are now four with as many as nine
possible. The FDNY sent a special unit of hazmat folks to Dr. Spencer`s
apartment. His girlfriend was also quarantined. She has been showing no
The "New York Times" is reporting that last night, Wednesday night, Dr.
Spencer had gone bowling in Brooklyn. He had taken the subway, apparently,
as well as a taxi. That is from "New York Times." We don`t have that
independently confirmed by NBC News at this moment.
Of course, we have seen over the course of the outbreak in West Africa,
most of the transmissions that have happened particularly the people not
from West Africa have been transmissions that have happened to health care
There were, of course, several missionary health care workers early on who
contracted the disease. They were flown back to the U.S. and treated until
the virus was out of their system. They all survived.
We have also seen, in Europe, two Spanish nurses, health care workers have
contracted the disease. They are both in stable condition, as far as I
know, as of now, although there`s been some real anger in Spain about the
treatment of them.
And, of course, we have seen recently here in the U.S., the index case of
Ebola in the U.S., the first index case of someone who got the disease or
at least manifested the symptoms for the first time in the U.S. was, of
course, Thomas Duncan, the man from Liberia, who traveled to the Dallas,
Ft. Worth area.
He then gave the disease to two health care workers, nurses. Mr. Duncan
died after being sent home from Texas Presbyterian Hospital for the first
time with antibiotics.
He then returned two days later and we should note here the difference in
the responses and this isn`t to say anything about Texas Presbyterian
Hospital versus Bellevue. It`s saying much more about how much learning
has happened in the interim.
In the case of Thomas Duncan, what happened was he showed up at a hospital,
the information that he had been in Liberia was not properly communicated
so that the red flags went up to test him for the disease and to isolate
him instead he was sent home with antibiotics.
He had to be rushed to the hospital by EMT two days later. We should also
note that many of the health care workers who came in contact with Mr.
Duncan did not in fact contract the disease.
Two nurses have. Both of them are in good condition, as far as we know,
Amber Vinson and Nina Pham. Both are being treated at different facilities
here in the U.S. that specialized in Ebola.
We should also note, as people think about those subway rides and those
taxi rides, which Dr. Spencer apparently took last night, that out of
hundreds of people that have been contact traced around this single index
case in the U.S.
That`s Thomas Duncan and the two cases subsequently that were transmitted
to health care workers, of hundreds of people that have been contact traced
including Mr. Duncan`s family, who were in close quarters with him when he
was symptomatic, who were left in close quarters with him when his bedding
and clothing was still in the building with him, those folks have passed
their 21 gestation period with no manifestations of the illness.
So that is to reiterate what public health officials have been saying from
the very beginning, which is that it is actually quite hard to transmit the
virus. That as the viral load increases as the person becomes more
symptomatic and as they become more symptomatic, the probability of them
passing it along increases.
So we have seen a concerted effort by public health officials for early
intervention. Over the last six weeks, New York City has gone through a
fairly remarkable process in which it has resorted doing everything,
including sending fake patients to emergency rooms manifesting possible
symptoms of Ebola to check to see whether the responses in mace were
adequate and sufficient.
Again, at this hour, Dr. Craig Spencer now becomes the fourth case here in
the U.S. He is the second case of a patient who apparently contracted the
disease in West Africa and came back. He also illuminates some of the
challenges of the proposed travel ban, a policy that has gained quite a bit
of political cachet over the last month particularly among Republicans with
some Democrats as well.
It is possible that this man, who has selflessly volunteered to go to a
stricken area of the world in which they are trying to wrestle to the
ground a deadly outbreak that this man would have been banned from
returning to the country under a travel ban, of course.
This is an American who`s given himself to try to help the folks in Guinea
and really help everyone in the world combatting this virus you can imagine
a travel ban in which he would not be allowed back into the country and
would be receiving care in Guinea.
We have Katie Tur now on the phone from outside Bellevue. She is, of
course, with NBC News. Katie, what`s the latest there?
KATIE TUR, NBC NEWS (via telephone): What we`re hearing so far right now,
Chris, is that the governor and the mayor of New York City will be holding
a press conference at 9:00. They`re expected to announce that this
patient, Dr. Spencer, has tested positive preliminary for Ebola.
Now those test results will be going to the CDC for further confirmation.
What we do know is that Dr. Spencer is a 33-year-old man. He is an E.R.
doctor from Columbia Presbyterian here in this city.
He was in West Africa treating Ebola patients as part of Doctors Without
Borders. He has been back here for ten days and, today, he woke up and
later this morning, he called the health department, saying that he had
The health department then called 911 and 911 decided to send a hazmat crew
and an ambulance to get him from his Harlem apartment to Bellevue Hospital
Now sources tell us that his girlfriend is also under quarantine right now.
We know that they have some sort of contact this morning. He was also at a
bowling alley in Brooklyn last night and we`re hearing that bowling alley
has closed down out of concerns over this. I assume there`s pretty serious
cleaning going on there.
As of now, the city is definitely pretty nervous about this. They were
treating it as if it was a positive case of Ebola from the start because he
had such close contact and he was such a high risk candidate.
He had not been at work at the E.R. at Columbia Presbyterian since he had
been back. He had been self-monitoring and he said that once -- the second
that he started to feel the symptoms, he self-quarantined and called the
HAYES: So that`s an interesting detail there about how this all went down.
That he, in fact, called the health department directly. Also a key detail
there that he has not been practicing back here in the states, which I
think is probably a wise move on his part and also a sigh of relief to
anyone who might have been in the emergency room at Columbia Presbyterian,
where he works as a doctor.
We should also reiterate, right, he says that as soon as he felt symptoms
or at least the report we have from UKD is that as soon as he felt
symptoms, he was self-monitoring, he called the health department. He was
not symptomatic until when he called them?
TUR: That`s what we are led to believe. That he was not symptomatic until
this morning and the moment that he did become symptomatic, that`s when he
called the health department. We don`t believe that he was symptomatic
I mean, this is a doctor. He worked with Doctors Without Borders. You
would assume that he would know better. That if he did feel achy or
feverish or in any way symptomatic for Ebola, he probably would have stayed
You would think that given his background, he would be responsible in that
way. We know that there was some sort of physical contact with his
girlfriend this morning. I would imagine that he wouldn`t want to put her
at risk if he did feel symptomatic.
So what we were told is that he was being precautious -- or that he was
being cautious. Once he called, he had 103-degree fever is what we`re
being told. I mean, that just skyrocketed pretty quickly, you would
HAYES: Yes, this was a phrase that was used in one of the official
pronouncements today that came from New York City, and again, we are
awaiting a live press conference in just a few moments. That will be the
mayor of New York City, Bill Deblasio and the governor of New York, Andre
Bill Deblasio gave some comments earlier today about the possibility of
this case coming back. It has come back positive that Dr. Craig Spencer
has tested positive for Ebola. The first Ebola case here in New York.
Katie, I had read this phrase that struck me, that stuck with me, that the
city was dispatching what it called disease detectives to fan out and do
the contact tracing necessary. Can you tell me anymore about who those
folks are and what they`re doing?
TUR: Well, what they`re doing is part of general precaution. They`ll go
out and speak to everybody that he has had contact with. Obviously, his
girlfriend was one of those people and that`s why sources say that she is
in quarantine right now.
So they are going to try and trace his steps to see who he has had any
physical contact with whatsoever and then they`ll be really cautious and
you can imagine that they probably put those at high risk under a
quarantine of 21 days, which is what we saw in Dallas for the family of Mr.
Duncan, who unfortunately died from it.
So what they`ll do is they`ll talk to him, find out exactly what he did, as
much as they can, and then they`ll try to piece together who could have
possibly been in contact with him. They`ve already gone through his
They`ve been speaking to neighbors to try and figure out anybody has had
contact. This is New York City. The story goes you never really know your
neighbors. You barely know them so I imagine that the majority of the
contact he`s had with getting on or off in an elevator or seeing them in a
For the ones that he did have more substantial contact with, they will go
in and start taking their temperature. They`ll check them for any
symptoms, any signs of the disease. And then they will quarantine and have
them monitor those people who they feel are high risk.
HAYES: Yes, Katie, let me take a moment just to explain to people that why
exactly this is a so high-stakes in New York City. First of all, New York
City is an incredibly densely populated area with a tremendous amount of
It`s an area in which people come into regular contact with each other in
something as simple as riding on the subway to work. It`s also an area
that can be prone to media freak outs, thanks to some of the coverage that
we have here in the city.
It`s an area in which, for all of these reasons, and particularly from a
public health reason, it`s an area where you wouldn`t want to see any kind
of outbreak or epidemic.
It`s an area where health officials have been fighting TB for a while.
Katie Tur of NBC News, I understand you have to get back to reporting.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
New York City is a place where the stakes have very high for any kind of
disease outbreak. It`s a city that`s worked very hard to combat
tuberculosis, one of the similar achievements of Dr. Frieden, who is now
the head of the CDC, but was, for a long time, the head of the Department
of Public Health.
One of his signature achievements was very hands on approach to combatting
the tuberculosis outbreak that happened here in New York that involved such
features even sending people to watch folks take their medicine because New
York poses such a challenge for anyone trying to restrain a virus or an
epidemic because of how compact it is.
We have Mayor Deblasio from earlier today when he was, for the first time,
addressing this issue that news had broken that a possible Ebola patient
had been taken to Bellevue. Here he is discussing that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR BILL DEBLASIO, NEW YORK: The important facts to know here, without
going through too much detail, the individual in question is a doctor, has
been able to work very closely with public authorities and providing
A very careful protocol has been in place now for weeks as protocol was
found, every step of the way including the initial contact with the
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: We have some news that according to New York City officials, Dr.
Spencer exhibited signs of not feeling well for a couple of days prior to
his admission to Bellevue Hospital. If you are hearing that and you were
at a Brooklyn bowling alley last night and you`re thinking to yourself,
that doesn`t sound good.
I would urge you to remember the fact that Thomas Duncan`s family who were
in that apartment with him for several days, 2-1/2 at least, while he was
manifestly symptomatic managed to emerge without ever testing positive for
Joining me now is Dr. Peter Hotez from Belly University, an expert on
tropical diseases. And Dr. Hotez, what do you make of what we`ve heard so
far about how this case is being handled?
DR. PETER HOTEZ (via telephone): Well, it`s not terribly surprising that
we would have another Ebola patient come to the United States. I think,
quite I am not terribly concerned about the risks and the workers for
contracting Ebola. We saw this in Dallas. It`s relative hi straight
forward to identify contacts and isolate them.
I think, for me, the big question is whether Bellevue and NYU have the
power to manage a very complicated Ebola patient. We saw this in Texas
Presbyterian Hospital. It`s was a very difficult to manage patients with
While the patients are as an outpatient and not a risk of transmission,
that`s when the risk happens. That`s what we saw in Liberia where health
care workers on the front lines are first and foremost, the ones that are
the greatest source of contracting infection.
HAYES: Doctor, you make a good point. This is going to be a test of the
first hospital that got an Ebola patient at Texas Presbyterian Hospital.
That Ebola patient did not survive. Subsequent patients have been
transferred out of that hospital.
They`re now receiving care at Emory and NIH where specific wards prepared
for this. This will be a test to see if a hospital that isn`t one of those
specialized areas can give the necessary care. That`s a tall order, as you
HOTEZ: We have four centers right now where they practice all of the time
and they`re well-rehearsed. And I think, right now, both are good.
HAYES: That is Dr. Hotez, thank you very much. That is ALL IN for this
evening. MSNBC will have much more on this breaking news throughout the
night. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.
RACHEL MADDOW: Thanks, Chris. We`re expecting that press conference any
moment and we`ll have it live here. Appreciate it.
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