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PoliticsNation, Thursday, October 30th, 2014

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Date: October 30, 2014

Guest: Jason Johnson; Dana Milbank; Emanuel Cleaver; Wayne Parcelle,
Caroline Modarressy-Tehrani, Chris Witherspoon, Midwin Charles, Jim
Cavanaugh, Clint van Zandt

ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC ANCHOR, THE ED SHOW: Good to be with you tonight. And
we hope you`re successful. Way to stay in the fight.

That`s "the Ed Show." I`m Ed Schultz. "Politics Nation" with Reverend Al
Sharpton starts right now.

Good evening, Rev.

REVEREND AL SHARPTON, MSNBC ANCHOR: Good evening, Ed. And thanks to you
for tuning in.

Tonight`s lead, there`s lots of buzz about governor Chris Christie not
backing down from this exchange with a protester.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Do you want to have the conversation
later? I`m happy to have it, buddy. But until that time, sit down and
shut up.



SHARPTON: His response today is classic Christie. We`ll have that later
in the show.

But we start with tonight`s lead, five days before the election, the
Republican in-fighting over the next election is bursting into view. Today
tea party Senator Ted Cruz implying Republican Jeb Bush would lose if he
ran for the White House in 2016.


SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Jeb has not declared his candidacy. I like Jeb.
I`m a fan of Jeb Bush. I`m going to let him decide if he is running first
and let the primary voters make a decision, but I will say this. We need
to learn from history. We need to look to history on what works and what
doesn`t. If we run another candidate in the mold of a Bob Dole, or John
McCain or Mitt Romney, we will end up with the same result which is
millions of people will stay at home on Election Day which was what
happened for all the three of them. And if we run another candidate like
that, Hillary Clinton will be the next president.


SHARPTON: Senator Cruz taking a direct swing at Jeb Bush and in the
process exposing the radicalism that the GOP has been desperate to hide in
the midterm.

In 2014, Republican candidates are as extreme as ever, even if they pretend
not to be. In Iowa, tape just surfaced showing GOP candidate Joni Ernst in
2012 saying she carries a gun to defend herself from the government.


JONI ERNST (R), IOWA SENATORIAL CANDIDATE: I have a beautiful little Smith
& Wesson nine millimeter and it goes with me virtually everywhere. I
believe in the right to defend myself and my family, whether it`s from an
intruder, or whether it`s from a government.


SHARPTON: In Colorado, GOP candidate Cory Gardner has been claiming he
didn`t really support a personhood effort to ban abortion, despite the
existence of videotape like this.



the personhood petition. I`ve taken the petitions to my church and
circulating it in my church. I have a legislative record that backs up my
support for life.


SHARPTON: In Georgia, GOP David Perdue is trying to run as a moderate,
even while he brags about outsourcing.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You made a career out of outsourcing. How
do you defend that?

This is a part of American business.


SHARPTON: Republicans can run from their extremism, but they can`t hide
it. It`s a problem for them in 2014, 2016, and beyond.

Joining me now are Dana Milbank and Jason Johnson. Thank you both for
being here.



SHARPTON: Dana, we have to start with Ted Cruz and Jeb Bush. Is this the
basic GOP split, extreme versus moderate, in the public view?

MILBANK: Well, or maybe it`s extreme versus more extreme. I mean, it`s
interesting that he was saying Jeb was the model of a Bob Dole or Mitt
Romney or John McCain, as opposed to the model of his own brother, George
W. Bush, who won the presidency twice.

So, I think this is just an early shot across the bow. There`s little
secret that Ted Cruz would like to run for the presidency. The Republican
electorate, the primary electorate so far has eventually gotten it right
and said no, we`re not going to go with the most extreme character, even
though they flirt with each one of the possibilities along the way.
Ultimately, they go with the most electable one. If they`re going to beat
Hillary Clinton, they have to come up with the most electable one, and
chances are that`s not Ted Cruz.

SHARPTON: Jason, I see you nodding. What do you say to this?

JOHNSON: Look. I think Ted Cruz came to the right conclusion, but for the
wrong reason. Basically, if there was a Bush against a Clinton, a Clinton
is going to win. We have better memories of the Clinton years than we do
of the Bush years. But the reality is, the last time the Republicans ran
someone for president who portrayed themselves as a moderate, he won.

Remember, George Bush said he was compassionate conservative. It was Bob
Dole, it was John McCain, it was Mitt Romney who spent the whole campaign
taking about their conservative bona fide. So Ted Cruz is on the wrong
side of history and campaign strategy. Republicans need a moderate to go
up against Hillary Clinton. A conservative will lose badly.

SHARPTON: You know, talking about in-fighting, Dana, in an interview with
"the Washington Post," GOP congressman Paul Ryan hinted he might run in
2016. And he took a jab at his potential rivals who are in the running.
All over the place they`ve been going to early primary states, he said,
quote, "I don`t feel the need to be out there, putting my toe in the water.
I don`t see the point in it. It`s not fun, and I don`t think I need to. I
already know a lot of people in these key states well. They call me up, so
I don`t feel the need to have to chum."

What do you say to that? And now look at where Chris Christie is going in
the next five days before you answer, Dana. He`s traveling to 19 different

Is Paul Ryan taking a dig at Republicans like Christie who are way out in
front of the 2016 primary? v

MILBANK: I don`t know if he`s taking a dig so much, Reverend, as he`s
saying. This is his own way of dipping his toe into the water without
having to actually having to go through the trouble of racking up all those
air miles. Paul Ryan has been a bit reticent saying, his future is going
to be in the Congress. So this is a significant shift for him.

This Republican field is very crowded and it doesn`t really have any sort
of a dominant figure. You can sort of picture the seven dwarf`s scenario
here, although it seems like we`re going to get rather more than that.

SHARPTON: Jason, let`s get away from the smoke and the TV ads. Look at
six GOP candidates in key races. Let`s deal with real policy since they`re
just five days away. Look at these positions. All of them oppose raising
the federal minimum wage. All of them support repealing the affordable
care act. All of them support banning abortion or placing strict limits on
it. These are all candidates for the U.S. Senate, all six of them. Is
this an agenda that can win in a national election?

JOHNSON: Reverend, you`re exactly right. I don`t think this is an agenda
that can win in a national election. And it only wins in a local election
when you don`t talk about what you actually stand for. I think a lot of
these Republican candidates have managed to do the sort of lipstick on a
pig move, whether it is like I`m going to put on a nice suit. I`m going to
use different language and no one`s going to realize I`m in favor of
personhood and have no interest in raising the minimum wage.

But you can do that at a local level where people may not be paying
attention. But during a two-year presidential campaign, you can`t hide
from your record, and that`s going to be really hard for any Republican
running for president.

SHARPTON: But Dana, in these critical, national policy issues, this
defines a lot of where the party is. Can the party win in a national
election, with these kinds of representatives in Washington?

MILBANK: Well, that`s the thing, Reverend. When you cited there does not
put these guys outside of the main stream of the Republican party at all.
They`ll fit right in with the Republican caucus in the United States
Senate. What`s going to be interesting now is if they do take the Senate,
well, there`s going to be a lot of pressure to bring up all of these pieces
of legislation like personhood bills. Now, of course the president will
veto them. But that will establish much more of a contrast that, in a
national election, in 2016, Democrats will be able to say, look, this is
what is going to happen if there`s a Republican president. He`s going to
start signing this stuff. So it creates a real contrast and that`s why
there`s some argument that having a Republican Senate right now creates a
stronger position for Democrats in 2016.

SHARPTON: So, Jason, as we are seeing all kinds of people, including us
out saying, get out in vote, this is a very, very well defined election,
because it`s almost no mid ground here in terms of clear positions on very
serious policy issues.

JOHNSON: Right. And look, I mean, most people if they`re paying attention
to this election, they know what these Republican candidates are standing
for. They know what these democratic candidates are standing for. The
real issue is going to be, can people, and will people turn out to vote?
And I want to say this, Rev., because not only do we have this clear choice
on policy, but we have a clear choice on effort as well. I think that some
of the things that have happened in Ferguson, Missouri, and what happened
in Florida, should remind people to not just vote policy, but vote on the
local level as well. Your district attorney, your local sheriff, these
races are important as too. And I hope that people realizes that these
issues aren`t just national, they can be local as well.

SHARPTON: Dana Milbank and Jason Johnson, thank you for your time tonight.

MILBANK: Thanks, Reverend.

JOHNSON: Thank you, Reverend.

SHARPTON: Coming up, Chris Christie is responding to this.


CHRISTIE: Do you want to have the conversation later? I`m happy to have
it, buddy. But until that time, sit down and shut up.



SHARPTON: Plus, the Ebola nurse defies her quarantine, going for a bike
ride. What do you think about it?

And the king comes home. Lebron James is back in Cleveland. Why it`s
bigger than basketball, and bringing a whole city together.


SHARPTON: One of the biggest stories on social media today is about this.


CHRISTIE: Do you want to have the conversation later? I`m happy to have
it, buddy. But until that time, sit down and shut up.



SHARPTON: Today the governor is defending that response. We`ll debate
that in "conversation nation" ahead.

But first, let us know what you think. Keep the conversation going on our
facebook page or tweet us, @politicsnation.


SHARPTON: We`ve got just five days left until Election Day, and the whole
thing could come down to African-American voters. We`ve told you Democrats
see the black vote as their last hope to hold the Senate. But in midterm
years, black turn-out tends to fall. And just a few thousand people
staying home could make all the difference.

So Democrats are doing everything they can to motivate black voters,
including running ads like this, against North Carolina Republican Thom


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tillis won`t fight for us. Instead, he made it
harder for communities of color to vote, by restricting early voting and
voter registration. Tillis even led the effort to pass the type of stand
your ground laws that caused the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.


SHARPTON: Tillis was deeply involved in voter restrictions and he was
leader of the house when the state passed its stand your ground law. But
here`s how one conservative group responded.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you heard this race-hustling Kay Hagan ad paid for
by Hillary Reid`s super PAC? Probably not. Because they`re not running it
on this station. Desperate to hold on to power, Obama, Reid, and Hagan,
are shamelessly race-baiting.


SHARPTON: They`re accusing Democrats of race-baiting, but that`s nothing
compared to what we`re seeing now in Texas. Ron Natinsky is a Republican
running to be Dallas county judge. It`s a democratic district represented
by Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson. Here`s what Natinsky said last
year about Congresswoman Johnson`s supporters.


motivate her voters. We don`t need another 5,000 or 10,000 of her people
to go to the polls. We want to them to think is there`s no reason, she
doesn`t have an opponent, I don`t need to go to the polls, I`ll go to the
grocery store or whatever on Election Day.


SHARPTON: It`s hugely offensive. But beyond the racially charged
rhetoric, one thing`s clear. He`s afraid of black voters turning out. If
they do, he`ll lose. So will lots of other Republicans across the country.

Joining me now is Congressman Emanuel Cleaver, Democrat of Missouri.
Thanks for being here.

REP. EMANUEL CLEAVER (D), MISSOURI: Good to be with you, Reverend.

SHARPTON: Congressman, you know, we rarely hear GOP politicians talk
openly like that, saying they want minority voters to stay home. Doesn`t
that show just how important turn-out really is?

CLEAVER: Absolutely. And in fact, I think that`s one of the great
encouragements to African-Americans. And if we will allow many of those
individuals who are clearly trying to suppress the vote, speak more openly
and clearly and give them opportunities to do so, I think that we`re going
to have a good turn-out. And if you look at the turn-out in North
Carolina, for example, just on the Sunday voting, 53 percent African-
American and 40 white.

Now, the goal is not to have more black people to vote for than whites.
The goal is to create a democracy where we want everybody to vote. And I
think one of the great tragedies of this moment in history is that in the
democracy, the world`s leading democracy, we have people actually trying to
reduce voter participation and that`s the great shame. And it`s being done
even more shamefully on the basis, in many places, of race.

SHARPTON: Now, congressman, traditionally, we see a big drop in voter
turn-out among blacks in the midterm. Take Georgia, for example. In the
last two presidential elections, more than a million African-Americans
voted in the state. But in 2010, that dropped to about 741,000. We saw
similar drop-off in North Carolina. What can we do differently this year?

CLEAVER: Well, you know, I preached on Sunday at a church of God and
Christ. And one of the things I said with a black and white audience
congregation, rather, that if you become angry at something, my sermon was
about anger. If you would become angry, vote. You don`t have to do
anything stupid. You don`t have to do anything dumb. Just go out and

And I think if people understand what is at stake, they`ll go out and vote.
If they understand that the minimum wage will not be raised to $10.25,
should be about 15, if they don`t go out and vote. If they understand
there`s no way we`re going to be able to eliminate interest rates in
college loans, they`ll go out and vote for people who will.

I mean, there are appropriate issues that impact the whole community, but
in some instances, the people who are the poorest, which are the
minorities, African-American and Latinos are going to have the most
negative impact on them. And so, I don`t think there`s anything wrong with
saying, get out and vote.

And for example, I`m right down the street from Ferguson, Missouri. And I
said to people there in churches where I preached in Ferguson, you know, if
you don`t like what`s going on here, if you don`t like things that have
happened, if you don`t like the fact that there are no African-Americans or
Latinos on the city council, get out and vote. I don`t see anything that`s
racist in that statement.

SHARPTON: Not at all. We`re seeing some interesting numbers from early
voting. "New York Times" found that black voters have made up about 27
percent of those voting early in North Carolina and Georgia. But this past
Sunday, as you stated, they made up 53 percent of all voters. Doesn`t that
show how effective souls to the polls drives can be.

CLEAVER: And that`s exactly why they`re opposed to it. You want to talk
about injecting race. African-Americans are connected almost inseparably
to religious institutions, to their churches, as both of us, our lives have
been committed in that direction. And so, if that`s going to get people
out to vote, then why not have souls to the polls in every state in every
city, so that we can maximize the American democracy. I think, if you look
at the reality of this, that would be a reason to just have holidays on
Tuesdays when we have voting. Or we get the greatest turn-out in the
United States on Sundays, then let`s have Sunday voting. Whatever it takes
to maximize democracy, so that we can boast around the world that the
United States, the leading democracy, has a huge turn-out of voters. That
means that they have embraced democracy. And we are, in this country,
trying to suppress it. And most of it is done on the basis of race.

SHARPTON: Well, I think Mr. Natinsky down in Texas answered that last
point, Congressman.

Thank you for your time tonight, Congressman Emanuel Cleaver.

CLEAVER: Good to be with you, Reverend.

SHARPTON: Still ahead, think Chris Christie would apologize for telling a
protester to shut up and sit down? Think again. His response is next.

Also, spin cycle. Should the bike-riding nurse be arrested for breaking
her Ebola quarantine?

And backlash to the new Victoria`s Secret ad. Should women view this as
the perfect body. "Conversation nation" is ahead.


SHARPTON: It`s not just candidates on the ballot this Tuesday, all across
the country, people are voting directly on key issues.

Washington and Alabama will both be voting on gun measures. Colorado,
North Dakota, and Tennessee have abortion rights on the ballot.
Connecticut, Missouri and Montana have important voting rights issues at
stake. And five states will be voting to raise the minimum wage. In
Arkansas, over 70,000 voters came together to put minimum wage on the
ballot with a petition.

Now, that`s democracy at work. And there are important initiatives on the
ballot in Michigan and Maine to protect animals. Here`s a TV ad that
animal rights activists are running about inhumane bear hunting in Maine.
Some viewers may find it disturbing.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Caught in cruel traps. Suffering for hours. Some
bears even trying to chew off their own limbs to escape. Eventually shot
at point blank range. An execution. Do you want to end this cruelty?


SHARPTON: These animals may not be able to speak up, but we can make our
voices heard for them with our votes.

Joining me now to help explain these ballot measures is Wayne Pacelle,
president and CEO of the humane society of the United States.

Thanks for being here, Wayne.

you, Reverend. Glad to be with you again.

SHARPTON: What`s at stake with the bear-hunting issue in Maine?

PACELLE: Well, you know, in your set-up, you mention at the ballot
initiative process has been used to drive reforms on a whole range of
issues. And that`s certainly been the case with animal welfare. We`ve
outlawed cockfighting in three states with (INAUDIBLE) initiative, the use
of steel-jawed traps, extreme confinement of farm animals that you and I
have spoken about n your show previously.

This year in Maine, there`s a measure to stop three particularly inhumane
and unsporting bear-hunting methods. The use of bait, where people put out
jelly donuts and other food and shoot the bears while they`re feeding.
Second is releasing packs of hounds to chase the animal and terrorize the
animal and then shoot it out of a tree at point-blank range, which is the
moral equivalent of shooting an animal in a cage in a zoo. And third, and
you showed this in your set-up piece for our segment, trapping of these
animals. And

Maine is the only state in the nation, 32 states that allow black bear-
hunting. Maine is the only one to allow all three of these practices.
We`re urging a yes vote on question one to end these practices of killing
animals for trophies.

SHARPTON: But the people who are saying vote no, they`re saying it`s about
controlling the bear population, that it`s a large population that`s just
become a nuisance.

PACELLE: Yes. That`s part of their rhetoric. That`s part of their fear
tactics. That`s the way they`re trying to frighten people. Remember, I
said, of 32 states of bear hunting, Maine is the only one to allow all
these practices. Somehow, the other states are managing their bear
populations without resorting to these completely unfair and inhumane
practices. And let`s remember --

SHARPTON: Let`s go to Michigan on another issue of animal safety. There
are measures on the ballot about Wolf hunting there. Only 650 wolves
remain in Michigan`s upper peninsula.

Wayne, what are you trying to get accomplished in Michigan?

PACELLE: Well, wolves just got off of the federal list of endangered
species. And just as they got off, the state pushed a trophy-hunting
season to really persecute these animals. Now, no one hunts wolves for
food, you know. If someone is shooting a deer or moose and eating their
meat, that`s one matter and that`s a pretty big tradition in our country
and it`s pretty defensible for the majority of Americans.

SHARPTON: But the other side is saying that wolves attack cattle and
farmers are upset about that. Do they have a point, Wayne?

PACELLE: Well, you can already control any problem animal. So under
existing law, you can kill an animal threatening cattle or public safety.
This is about trophy hunters going into the wood and killing unoffending
animals for no good reason.

SHARPTON: Wayne Parcelle, Maine and we are looking at Michigan, it`s very
interesting. On the ballot, president of the Humane society, thank you for
your time tonight.

PACELLE: Great to see you again. Thanks so much for having me on.

SHARPTON: Up next, Chris Christie defends his smack down of a heckler.
It`s classic Christie, you`ll want to hear this one.

Plus, it`s the most famous bike ride in America, but should that Maine
nurse be arrested for breaking her Ebola quarantine. Stay with us.


SHARPTON: We`re back now with "Conversation Nation." Joining us tonight,
HuffPost Live host Caroline Modarressy-Tehrani. The Grio`s Chris
Witherspoon. And legal analyst Midwin Charles. Thank you for being here
this evening.



SHARPTON: First up, Governor Chris Christie is now responding to this
outburst yesterday in New Jersey. Watch.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: I`d be more than happy to have a
debate with you any time you like guy, because somebody like you, who
doesn`t know a damn thing about what you`re talking about, except to stand
up and show off when the cameras are here. I`ve been here when the cameras
aren`t here, buddy and done the work. I`ve been here when the cameras
weren`t here and did the work.


So, I`m glad you had your day to show off, but we`re the ones who are here
to actually do the work. So turn around, get your 15 minutes of fame, and
then maybe take your jacket off, role up your sleeves and do something for
the people of the state. It`s been 23 months since then, what all you`ve
been doing is flapping your mouth and not doing anything. So, listen. If
you want to have the conversation later, I`m happy to have it, buddy. But
until that time, sit down and shut up.


SHARPTON: Sit down and shut up. He drew a lot of criticism today about
his temper. David Axelrod even calling out his soprano approach to
politics. Today, the governor was stumping in New Mexico for Governor
Martinez when he was asked about it, and his response, which he posted on a
YouTube page this afternoon was this.


CHRISTIE: If you give, you`re going to get back. I love having --



But if someone`s going to stand up and I ignore them for a while, and they
continue to be rude and talk over me and other people, then I`m going to
engage. And that`s what the people of New Jersey and in the country, have
some respect for me. I don`t look forward to it, but I don`t shy away from
it either. So, it`s just another day at the ranch, rancho Christie.


SHARPTON: Another day at rancho Christie. Christie said, he doesn`t look
forward to doing that stuff. What`s your take, does he like it?

CHRIS WITHERSPOON, THEGRIO: You know, it`s hard to watch those clips, they
still enrage me. But with that said, with that said, I got to say --

SHARPTON: It enrages you?

WITHERSPOON: It enrages me and it makes me angry. But I didn`t know he
posted it to YouTube. When I heard that, when I heard he posted that clip
to YouTube, it makes me wonder, was this calculated? What`s he possibly
trying to maybe -- that base and loves to see Chris Christie the bully come

SHARPTON: Right. Right. Well, Midwin, you know, when you get Chris mad,
you might have lost the whole country.

CHARLES: Well, I think this is what we expect from Chris Christie. It
doesn`t surprise me. Listen, he`s not going to win governor, you know, the
most the kinder and gentler governor award of the year. This is what
people expect of Chris Christie. I actually don`t have a problem with what
he said, perhaps how he said it obviously is a bit much. There`s no need
to be rude to get your point across.

SHARPTON: But Caroline, now he`s on the national stage, or he`s trying to
go there, will this play nationally, and how do you say sit down and shut
up better as Midwin saying? Does he say sit down, sit down and shut up is
sit down and shut up.


MODARRESSY-TEHRANI: You know, my problem is that, my issue is the way he
said, I`m just engaging. No, you`re not engaging, dude. You`re just
talking down to people. Engaging is having a dialogue. There was no
dialogue there. And if you`re going to be running for president, which I`m
sorry, that is something an example of somebody who wants to be running for
president of the United States of America. That`s not engaging.


CHARLES: And he`s the only one that has the mic. So you can`t hear what
the other person was saying.

SHARPTON: But why do the YouTube? Was he apologizing? Was his people
advising he walk it back? Because they posted this on YouTube. Was this
his way of trying to walk it back?

WITHERSPOON: I honestly think it was his way of just invigorating that
base that loves to see that.

SHARPTON: So he was digging in.

WITHERSPOON: He was digging in. And here`s my thing. You know, you`re
saying it`s okay to act that way. You`re saying that --

CHARLES: No, no, no, I`m saying his point, I agree with his point.


CHARLES: The way in which he conveys his point is completely

WITHERSPOON: Agree. And here`s the thing, he might one day be our
president. I don`t want to see our president crack like that. He cracks.
He wasn`t talking down, anybody. He completely cracked. He`s not. And
there`s no reason why at that level you should be able to act like that.
You know hecklers are going to be there, that just happens, be prepared.

CHARLES: Well, I agree. I agree --

SHARPTON: All right. Let me move on to Maine where the Ebola nurse Kaci
Hickox is defying her 21-day quarantine in a rather interesting way. Just
take a look at this scene. She decided to forget the quarantine and take a
little bike ride. And she was joined by a swarm of reporters. I mean, is
this a circus or what? She stopped to talk as she rode back home.


KACI HICKOX, NURSE: There`s no legal action against me. So, I`m free to
go on a bike ride in my hometown.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: What does this add to the court order, Kaci?

HICKOX: I don`t know. When you find out, you tell me.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: How did it feel to be out on the road?

HICKOX: It feels amazing.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: You plan to go out again later today?

HICKOX: We`ll see.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Did you talk about --

HICKOX: No, I didn`t. You know, this morning, Ted and I just said we want
to go for a bike ride. So here we are.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Is that something that you guys do often?

HICKOX: We do. Yes.

Thank you, guys. I have to go speak with the Health Department now.


SHARPTON: You remember Hickox was released earlier this week from that
weird tent Governor Christie put her in in New Jersey. She was released on
the condition that she`d self-quarantine at her own home in Maine. But
despite having state troopers stationed outside her home, and threats of
arrest, she`s out for a ride today. The state is reportedly seeking a
court order to force Hickox to remain quarantined at home. And this
afternoon, Governor Paul LePage weighed in.


GOV. PAUL LEPAGE (R), MAINE: I don`t want her within three feet of

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: What happens if she does? Is there any legal

LEPAGE: Let`s put it this way. I`m going to use the legal provisions to
the fullest extent that the law allows me. And I just hope that she
recognizes that. I`m just asking her to be reasonable, let`s get to
November 10th, and then you can do whatever you would like.


SHARPTON: Midwin, some confusion about this. Can she be arrested for
leaving the house?

CHARLES: Somewhat yes and no. I think what Governor LePage is saying
there, is that he does have legal authority, as well as the Federal
government to protect the welfare and well-being of the people of the state
of Maine. However, that authority is not broad. One of the problems that
I think the state governors that are enforcing these mandatory quarantine
and isolations, is that the science has to support it. If Ebola is not
transmitted from someone who is not showing any symptoms, then you cannot
necessarily, by law, keep them in this sort of mandatory quarantine. And I
think that`s one of the issues that the courts are going to look at. Yes,
there`s sort of risk here, but how risky is it? And when you look at the
fact that Thomas Eric Duncan the first person to die with Ebola in the
United States, was in an apartment with his family and girlfriend for four
days after he showed symptoms and they did not get Ebola, so there has to
be facts to substantiate, you know, when you`re going to curtail someone`s
civil rights.

SHARPTON: Caroline?

MODARRESSY-TEHRANI: Yes. I mean, I think, you know, the science is very
clear here. And, you know, the only thing that`s difficult for me is that,
she`s trying to represent how, or to express how considerate she`s being,
you know, how kind of within her rights. You know, this is a big civil
rights issue for her. She`s like, I`m going to, you know, expend my civil
rights and this is the way I`m going to do it. But I think that it kind of
rubs people up the wrong way. You know, people were really on her side,
really supportive of her, and doing something like this, I think it can
divide a lot of people.

SHARPTON: There seems to be a lot of passion on both sides of this

WITHERSPOON: And I think that we don`t really have the science figured out
around Ebola. There are still a lot of question marks. I know it with
Craig Spencer, the doctor here in New York, I wish she would have a
mandatory quarantine for 21 days, I didn`t want him going bowling and
riding the subway, he very well may have had Ebola and I think --

MODARRESSY-TEHRANI: But he`s not contagious at that point.


CHARLES: The science is clear.

MODARRESSY-TEHRANI: The science is clear. Yes.

CHARLES: The science is clear and you can tell because only one person has
died from it.


CHARLES: This is not airborne.

WITHERSPOON: I think staying at home for 21 days these days is not that
bad a thing. If she wants to call me, I can tell her some great Netflix
shows she can watch.

CHARLES: It`s easy for you to say because you`re not the one being forced
to do it.


SHARPTON: But there is a civil liberties issue here.


SHARPTON: And the question I think the debate that I`m hearing everywhere
is civil liberties, but also do you consider the fright that people are
legitimately feeling because we don`t know that we`re convinced of the

WITHERSPOON: This is a life or death disease sometimes. People can die
from this. So, I think that if people can die from a possible disease you
may be carrying, just stay home watching --

SHARPTON: Caroline, you`re shaking your head.

MODARRESSY-TEHRANI: Well, I think, Rev, I agree with you. I think that
the science is very clear on this. What you`re absolutely right in saying,
is that there is a lot of fear out there. The American public still remain
unclear. At that time, I think it`s great if she were to abide by the
quarantine, as inconveniencing as it is, and maybe just speak from home,
and let the science speak for her. The only scientists that are coming out
saying, quarantines are ridiculous. And for her to say, you know,
quarantines are ridiculous. Maybe the bike ride was a little bit too far.

SHARPTON: And isn`t Midwin, a lot of it is that a lot of people don`t
trust what we`re being told the science is?

CHARLES: People don`t trust what they`re being told about the science.
But they should look at the facts. I mean, like I said, look at Thomas
Duncan, if those people who lived with him, lived with him did not get
Ebola, after he exhibited symptoms. Remember when he went to the hospital

SHARPTON: And had he been treated, he likely would have made it, according
to a lot of experts.

CHARLES: Yes. There are some questions with respect to the level of care
that he received when compared to some of the other people who have come
down with Ebola. But I think those are the facts that people should focus
on. And I don`t think that this woman civil rights should be curtailed
because people are scared. You know, civil rights are supported and backed
by the constitution of the United States and we shouldn`t think of them as
being whimsical, or what have you, or bend them when we don`t have the
facts or the science to support --

SHARPTON: And Caroline, are we not setting a legal precedent for other
things if we don`t deal with the civil rights of this matter?

MODARRESSY-TEHRANI: Well, yes. I`m not a lawyer, but I think it`s a fair
point. That, you know, maybe this is -- we got a lawyer here. But, you
know, I think in terms of, you know, wanting to get out there and exercise
your civil rights, you know, yes, she did the right thing on that score.
Whether or not it was the right thing politically, if you`re looking at
this from like a broader level, I`m not sure it was the right thing. But I
do hope back the science behind this. She`s totally fine. She`s taken two
Ebola tests. Both are negative. People need to calm down.

WITHERSPOON: She was out on a bike ride on the air, she wasn`t like, you
know, in a gym or like in a restaurant eating. She was on the public air -

CHARLES: And remember, it`s not airborne though, Chris.

WITHERSPOON: Agree. Agree.


But she was on a bike ride.

SHARPTON: But it really as reflected by the three of you, it is really
something that has a lot of Americans divided. And some holding opposing
views within their own minds.

CHARLES: Absolutely. And I can understand that. I mean, I think when you
look at the fatality of this disease, it is scary. I think over 50 percent
of the people who contract this disease do die, but we have always
encountered diseases that people have died from or what have you. AIDS was
deadly as well, but we didn`t quarantine --

SHARPTON: Panel, I`m going to ask you to hold on. We have breaking news
tonight. Accused cop killer Eric Frein is in custody, and has been
captured by Pennsylvania State Police. Confirming it, state police moments
ago, say Frein is accused of killing one state trooper and injured another
in early September.

Frein was accused of shooting those officers on the 12th of September.
Forty eight days ago. He is now, according to state police in
Pennsylvania, been taken into custody and has been captured. Again, Frein
in Pennsylvania has been captured by Pennsylvania State Police. They
confirmed he is in custody after a massive manhunt of 48 days in

Let me bring in Jim Cavanaugh. He`s on the phone and Jim, what can you
tell us? And what`s your reaction to this news?

JIM CAVANAUGH, NBC LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST (on the phone): Well, it`s kind
of like you, Reverend Al, I`m relieved for everybody up in Pennsylvania and
certainly the state police. And they`ve done a great job in this. And
they`ve caught him and he`s alive, that`s positive as well. And no
troopers or agents killed, apparently from what we`re heard. Nobody
seriously injured so far as we`ve know. I think it`s really great law
enforcement work all around. Of course there will be a trial now and he`s
captured, so there will going to be a trial for the murder of Corporal
Dickson and the wounding of the other trooper, the other trooper. So, you
know, it`s a big step forward and a big relief.

SHARPTON: Now, you`ve run a lot of manhunts before, how did this one
strike you? Because it took a long time, 48 days, several sightings, and
it wasn`t over a huge area. How does this strike you how this was done?

CAVANAUGH: Well, you know, Rev, we talked last week on POLITICS NATION, I
think about it. The key is that the people in the area are working with
you, they`re on your side. When you have a case like that, whenever you
have that community support, the police, you`re going to catch him. I
think the key element in this thing from the very beginning was the quick
response by the police and the deputies to set up a roadblock right when
the killing of the trooper occurred and to bring in that helicopter right
away. Those two things, the roadblock where Frein had to turn around, and
the helicopter where he thought he could see him and turned out his lights,
caused him to drive his jeep into the pond, which wasn`t in his plan. He
likely planned to, you know, slip away and maybe choke them without anybody
knowing who he was.

SHARPTON: But the other side of that is that, doesn`t it raise questions
as to how someone that thought they were going to get away could escape for
48 days? Are there things that law enforcement are going to study to make
sure that this doesn`t happen again, where someone could be at large that

CAVANAUGH: No, that`s right. I mean, that`s very difficult. You`re
exactly right. I think the key would be to probably pick this guy up
before something, you know, spilled out of his mind, or leaked out of his
plan. Because once he hits in the woods up there, it`s pretty difficult to
find him. You take so much manpower, like it did in all these days. This
could have ended in more death and tragedy. So it`s a very successful,
patient operation. You know, justice is going to be served.

SHARPTON: Hold on a minute, Jim. I have former FBI profiler Clint van
Zandt also on the phone. Clint, you`re hearing this news that it has been
confirmed by law enforcement that Frein has been captured. He`s in
custody, Eric Frein. A senior source said he was caught in a hangar at the
Pocono Mountain Airport. Frein was not in a public area of the airport,
and as we know, he was wanted for allegedly shooting two Pennsylvania state
troopers, killing one. Your reaction.

CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI AGENT (on the phone): Well, I was just
listening. You`re talking to Jim my good friend. And, you know, he and I
have been in the trenches in a number of these situations. So we know what
it`s like. And you`ve reported on these for years, Al. You know, two
things strike me. Number one, we remember Eric Rudolph, the so-called
Olympic Park bomber. This guy stayed a fugitive five years. And as you
recall, he was apprehended dumpster diving about 2:00 a.m. in the morning
by a local Rookie police officer.


ZANDT: Well, where he was hiding, Al, was kind of up on a ridge top in a
little tent that he had where he could look down on the strip mall. But he
supposedly, some people suggest, had help from locals in the area. They
supported what he was involved in. Unlike this particular situation,
nobody can support somebody who`s killed a law enforcement officer in this
case, and I think it goes to the tenacity too of law enforcement. I mean,
people were suggesting he`s down in Miami, he`s sitting in a beach chair,
he`s watching this on a television. He`s laughing at these things. And
law enforcement said, you know what, we have an area, we`re going to search
this until we can prove he left the area, as far as we`re concerned, he`s
still here. And they stayed at that. It cost them $1.2 million a week to
keep this search up. But they got their man and as you say, they got him
in a matter of, you know, a couple of months, not five years. So I think
we learned from the Eric Rudolph case, and as you suggest, law enforcement
will digest this, dissect it, they`ll look at it, they`ll understand how he
avoided apprehension, and we`ll learn from the next one.

SHARPTON: Yes. Gentlemen, hold on a minute. We`ll going to take a quick
break and we`ll be back. Again, Eric Frein has been captured, wanted for
shooting two Pennsylvania state police, one dying. After 48 days, he is
now in custody. We`ll be back with more news on this right after this.


SHARPTON: We`re back with breaking news. Eric Frein, who has been at
large for 48 days, since September 12th, has now been captured and is in
police custody in Pennsylvania. Wanted for shooting two Pennsylvania state
police, one fatally, and he is now in custody. He was captured in a hangar
at Pocono Mountain Airport. Frein was not in the public area of the

Let`s go back to you, Jim Cavanaugh. It seems like this was a very
complicated, intense manhunt. It was not easy, but they never are, Jim.

CAVANAUGH: No, they`re always difficult, Reverend Al. Just like Clint
outlined, you know, the law enforcement study it, learn the lessons from
it. But, you know, it`s not only are the citizens relieved today, but you
know, all the families of all those thousand law enforcement officers that
were working to find him are relieved. But they don`t have to worry about
their loved ones, you know, at least tonight for being injured or killed by
Eric Frein. Of course, they`ll have to go back to their duties in the next
couple days, so it never ends for law enforcement. But this particular
risk will be over. A great relief and a great job. And the trial to
ensue. Pennsylvania, you know, showed that it has good police. It has
people that support what`s going on. So it`s all positive to have Frein

SHARPTON: Isn`t that part of the point, Clint, that we must always look at
the human side? The family of the officer that was killed, and how they
feel tonight, as well as the family of the wounded officer. And the
families who had to keep their children home from school. I mean, sometime
behind the headlines, the human factor in this, the anxiety, the fear, we
sometimes do not stop and think enough about.

CAVANAUGH: Well, you know, Al, if you think notwithstanding the loss of
human life and the money that`s been spent every day looking for him. It`s
the economic impact on that area. I mean, hunting season was canceled.
People were going up to look at the fall leaves. They were told not to
come up. Motels, restaurants, everybody. Everybody took a hit. It`s
almost like a terrorist walked into the area and set an explosive device
off or something. Because it stopped commerce in that area from taking
place. So I think there`s going to be a collective sigh of relief that
he`s in captivity up to and including this guy who alleges that he`s been
confronted by police over 20 different times because he`s an Eric Frein

I mean, no longer does he have to be under that. But I think Jim makes the
good point. This guy is going to have to stand trial. No more can he play
the games. People have said, why hasn`t he shot anybody else? And I said,
I don`t think he has to. You know, he did what he wanted to do. He`s
playing out this sophisticated, real-life paint-ball game with real
bullets. He doesn`t have to necessarily shoot anybody else. But in so
many of these cases, Al, that you`ve covered, you see they end in suicide.


CAVANAUGH: Or suicide by cop. In this particular case, he`s going to have
to stand trial and a jury of his peers, and be responsible. He`s not going
to have to hide, he`s not going to be a hero. He`s going to turn out to be
what the state police call him, which is a coward.

SHARPTON: A lot of fear in that community, Jim. A lot of apprehension.
And now as you`ve said and Clint reminded us, now a trial. He will stand
trial. He will have to be brought in front of his peers and be judged.

CAVANAUGH: That`s right, Reverend. You know, the first step on the road
to justice is the charge. The arrest of the person believed to be
responsible, and that took a lot in this case to get that to happen. But
that`s the first step on the road to justice and they made it today. So I
think everybody can breathe a sigh of relief. Clint outlined it well.
You`ve talked about the human factor. And you`ve seen that in so many
cases, and you know from reporting on these cases, how when loved ones are
lost, how it impacts the families, the community. So, you know, our hearts
go out to the trooper`s family that were killed and injured. And the whole
state police family, you know, who suffered through this. But what a great
job, super job, to find Frein without more death.

SHARPTON: Well, let me show the Pocono Mountain Airport, this is the
airport where a hangar is where he was found. He was not in the public
space. Forty eight days, all kinds of intensity, all kinds of real hard
police work, but he was caught. They did not turn around. They did not
become deterred by the cynicism. They caught their man. Clint, are you

ZANDT: No, Al. In fact, I`m glad they did. You know, they`ve employed
every technical device and every personal device they could. I think --

SHARPTON: And no violence, from what we understand, no violence.

ZANDT: Yes, no violence. And, look, everybody, you know, said this guy
was a great mountain man, he`s a survivor, he can handle the woods, he`s
living in a hole, he`s got tent --

SHARPTON: I`m going to have to hold it there, gentlemen, citing breaking
news and thank God that the families can breathe relief in that area
tonight. Clint and Jim, thank you both.

Thanks for watching. I`m Al Sharpton. Stay with MSNBC for coverage.
"HARDBALL" starts right now.


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