All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, November 26th, 2014
Read the transcript from the Wednesday show
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: November 26, 2014
Guest: Hakeem Jeffries, Phillip Atiba Goff, David Feige, Osagyefo Sekou
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --
LESLEY MCSPADDEN, MICHAEL BROWN`S MOTHER: I don`t feel that he
stirred the crowd. The crowd was already stirred.
HAYES: The Ferguson fallout continues.
PROTESTERS: No more murders. No more murders.
HAYES: As marches spread to cities across the country, video is
released of another horrifying incident in Ohio.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was only 12. He wanted to play basketball
and NBA. He loved everybody.
HAYES: A 12-year-old boy with a pellet gun is shot and killed by
police in Cleveland. Tonight, why the police thought he was such a threat.
Plus, should witnesses who disagree with Darren Wilson really go to
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NYC MAYOR: I would prosecute all those people
HAYES: Another major development in the campus sexual assault
controversy at the University of Virginia.
And on this Thanksgiving Eve, your Siberian traffic and weather
ALL IN starts right now.
HAYES: Good evening from back here in New York City. I`m Chris
President Obama has a message for protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, as
an announcement of the grand jury -- I`m sorry, this is not correct. Hold
on one second. Let me get that fixed.
We are here tonight as in the wake of protests that have rocked the
entire country. In 37 states, we`ve seen protests. We`re right now
looking at a live shot of Ferguson, Missouri, which seems to be very, very
quiet and very, very calm at this hour.
Last night, police had closed off some of the main stretches that had
been the site of most of the protests. And tonight, you see live shot of
National Guard who are patrolling. But the reports we have from Ferguson
is it`s a very quiet night.
It was not a quiet night last night in cities across the country.
Marches and protests in places like New York City and Los Angeles, in
Dallas/Ft. Worth, in Philadelphia and in Boston.
All of those places rising up to lend their support, but the
protesters in Ferguson who found themselves facing down what they see as
continued injustice and racial disparities in policing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETER KINDER (R), MISSOURI LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: Why were they not in
there at the first sign of an overturned police car or a smashed police car
window with a show of force that would have stopped this?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: That`s lieutenant governor, Republican lieutenant governor in
Missouri who is directing pretty aggressive criticism at Governor Jay
Nixon. That`s Peter Kinder.
Kinder went on to suggest the Obama administration had pressured Nixon
to hold the National Guard troops back.
Michael Brown`s mother Lesley McSpadden appeared this morning on "The
Today Show" where she said she`s been heartbroken since the verdict. She
also responded to the criticism of the emotional reaction from her husband
and Michael Brown`s stepfather Louis Head, seconds after the family learned
that Darren Wilson would not be indicted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCSPADDEN: I don`t feel that he stirred the crowd. The crowd was
already stirred. It`s been stirring since August 9th. I hold -- I
wouldn`t hold him accountable for that. That comes from a higher power
elected official, and it`s called the governor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Remarkably, the protest last night in Ferguson coming after
the chaos on Monday might have been some of the least contentious of
anywhere in the country. Protests over the verdict took place last night
in major cities from coast to coast, with incredible images coming out of
many of them.
In Boston, where 45 were arrested, about 1,400 marched through the
streets and blocked traffic. When the protesters passed the South Bay
House of Correction, the inmates put their hands up in a stunning show of
solidarity behind bars.
In New York, mass gridlock as thousands blocked highways and bridges.
In Washington, activists staged a die-in outside the Metropolitan
Police Department headquarters.
In Cleveland, protesters blocked cars on the freeway, though their
anguish focused on more than just the killing of Mike Brown.
There`s a reason these protests were widespread. Whatever the
particularities of Ferguson`s specific racial dynamics in that part of the
country, the frustration with police and the criminal justice system writ
large can be found in every major city and small towns as well.
Now, the statistics are startling. Young black males are at far
greater risk of being shot dead by police than their white counterparts, 21
times greater according to a "ProPublica" analysis of federal data. And
those protests in Cleveland yesterday were centered on the latest,
especially tragic killing by police of one of their own.
This surveillance video released today by police shows 12-year-old
Tamir Rice in what would turn out to be the last minutes of his life. He
can be seen walking along the sidewalk playing with and sometimes pointing
what police would later learn was a pellet gun. At one point, he stops
pacing to play with the snow. He can be seen on the surveillance video
packing up a handful of snow, making a snowball, and tossing it on to
Minutes later, he can be seen sitting on a bench in the gazebo behind
the sidewalk. You can see him get up from the bench juts as a police car
pulling up. An officer jumps out of the passenger side, and by the time
the police car has stopped, 12-year-old Tamir Rice has been shot. You can
see him fall to the ground just behind the police car.
Here`s how it happened once more. Within seconds of the squad car
pulling up, you can see Tamir Rice falls to the ground. Police had been
called by a 911 caller who had warned that the gun Rice was carrying was,
quote, "probably fake." Here`s a bit of that call.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CALLER: He`s sitting on the swing right now, but he keeps pulling in
and out of his pants and pointing it at people. Probably a juvenile, you
(END AUDIO CLIP)
HAYES: The president of the Cleveland Police Patrolmen`s Association
said the responding officers were not told by the dispatcher the gun might
be fake. This is the air soft gun police say Rice was carrying. The
orange safety indicator meant to mark it as a toy had been removed.
In a statement today, Rice`s family said their son`s death could have
been avoided. They also called for calm as protesters gathered at
Cleveland City Hall. "We understand that some of you are hurt, angry and
sad about our loss", said the statement. "But let`s use those emotions in
a way that will contribute to positive efforts and solutions that bring
change to Cleveland, northeast Ohio and cities across the nation as it
relates to how law enforcement officials interact with citizens of color."
Joining me now, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries. He`s Democrat from New
York. And Philip Atiba Goff, he`s co-founder and president of Center for
And, Dr. Goff, I`ll start with you. You work studying racial bias and
policing. You`ve worked with police. Tell me your response to that video
of Tamir Rice.
PHILLIP ATIBA GOFF, CENTER FOR POLICING EQUITY: I think anybody who
is not heartsick at seeing that, who doesn`t have a cousin or a son or a
nephew and thinks that could have been in my family is dead inside. Alice
Walker says that the most important question is, why is the child crying?
And I see that and I say, we don`t have good enough answers for that within
law enforcement. Why is it that law enforcement -- there`s not mandatory
training on how to identify and engage with young people? And why is it
that we can`t give our young people in those communities the chance to
mature and enjoy their childhood until they have to be burdened with the
way of adulthood?
HAYES: Congressman, we saw a lot of things. We`re seeing now a
natural movement around this. I`ve had you on the show to talk about
things in New York City, specific. You`ve been pretty outspoken about
policing in New York City.
There was a wave of, you know, discontent with the militarization of
police and talks about reform which quietly, of course, was killed in
Congress. No one is talking about reform in the 1033 program which was
giving surplus military equipment.
What -- is there anything going on in Washington that is responsive to
what`s going on in the streets of New York and videos like that?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D), NEW YORK: We`re going to get back to
Washington next week. And hopeful that based on what`s happened in
Brooklyn, what`s happened in Cleveland, what`s happened in Ferguson,
Missouri, what`s happened all across America for decades in terms of young,
unarmed, innocent, African-American men being gunned down by police
officers, often without justification, and then no criminal consequences
that we decide to confront this issue in a meaningful way when we get back
to Congress. Democrats and Republicans, people from all over the country,
because this is a national problem.
But, Chris, at the end of the day, in my view, the only way that this
behavior will change is if there`s criminal accountability at the end of
the day when an officer engages in the use of force that is excessive and
HAYES: But, Dr. Goff, this is precisely the issue. We`ve seen the
statistics about how rarely police are, in fact, prosecuted for shootings
and killings. Part of that rests on a pretty firm legal foundation.
Police obviously have far more latitude to use force, A; B, it is difficult
to get inside the mindset of a police officer or the two police officers
that pulled up in front of Tamir Rice, one of whom was a rookie. I imagine
when we hear from them, they were going to say they were scared, they
perceived him as a threat, they perceived a gun and that`s where the story
ends in most cases.
GOFF: That`s exactly right. They said the orange cap was removed.
But one of the parts that`s really telling to me in this is the dispatch
audio says that the suspect was maybe 20. Suspect was 12.
So, it`s not just that this is a law enforcement problem, though it
is. Law enforcement suffers from the same set of cognitive biases that
we`ve all collectively decided black boys are dangerous at a younger age
than everybody else in the world.
So, yes, we absolutely have to deal with law enforcement. There need
to be consequences for illegal behavior, but we can`t stop with law
enforcement. What these trends have been showing us is that we`ve got a
bigger societal problem. Until we take collective responsibility instead
of just pinning it on police officers, then we`re going to be stuck because
the people who are coming on to the job, the new rookies every new year,
they`ll have the exact same set of biases that the rest of these officers
have and all the rest of us have.
HAYES: The point you made that I want to clarify, when one of the
police officers called into dispatch, he referred to the person they were
referring to as a suspect at the time as a male of 20 when he was in fact
12. Now, Dr. Goff, that`s a good point there because there`s no reason to
suspect that officer`s lying, right? He`s actually perceiving this child
as a full grown man.
Part of the issue here, it strikes me, in moving from street unrest to
protest to some kind of concrete steps is the polarization that happens
around these issues, right? We have seen some Republican politicians talk
about how our criminal justice system is broken, how we overpolice, they`re
too militarize, we have too many people in prison, but then when you go
into the heart of the conservative base right now, they`re saying Darren
Wilson was justified in what he did and people shouldn`t disobey the
JEFFRIES: Well, this is a polarized country, a polarized Congress and
we`ve seen a polarized reaction. Largely, a racially disparate reaction in
terms of many white conservatives taking one view and certainly the
African-American community taking another.
One of the things that I think needs to happen over the next two
years, President Obama announced a very important initiative earlier this
year related to My Brother`s Keeper, and a meaningful intervention to
socially and economically connect young African-American boys and young
Latino boys to the mainstream. And in order to ultimately solve this
problem, we`ve got to deal with the disconnect that exists in communities
of color all across the country.
HAYES: OK. But, Congressman, I hear this and I agree, and I don`t
think anyone could possibly be against that as a policy initiative. But,
you know, people are getting shot when they are connected to the
JEFFRIES: That`s correct and --
HAYES: Tamir Rice is dead right now not because of whatever his
familiar background was or his connection or disconnection from the
JEFFRIES: Well, this gets to the professor`s point, that at the end
of the day there`s a societal problem in terms of how African-American and
Latino males are viewed broadly. And until you change the underlying
dynamic as it relates to the economics and the social infrastructure --
JEFFRIES: -- and plug our young men of color and boys of color into
the mainstream, that general societal perception won`t change and they`re
going to continue to see this type of law enforcement behavior.
HAYES: What Dr. Goff talked about and what you`re talking about, this
sort of deep prejudice we have, stereotype, expectation we have of young
men of color in particular, we`re gong to talk more about that later in the
Congressman Hakeem Jeffries and Phillip Atiba Goff -- thank you,
JEFFRIES: Thank you.
GOFF: Thank you.
HAYES: Yesterday, I had an exclusive interview with Dorian Johnson,
Michael Brown`s friend who was with him when he was shot by Officer Darren
Wilson. And he told me what he recalled happening. Today, there are some
people out there calling him a liar. My response to that, ahead.
HAYES: All right. If you are near a computer and you have the
ability or you have your smartphone, go to PBS.org right now and pull up
this piece. "What do the newly released witness statements tell the story
of the shooting of Michael Brown?" You will see this incredible chart. I
spent an hour poring over this today.
And we`re going to be talking about how it puts the witness statements
to the Michael Brown shooting into context. Pull that up. Stay with us.
We`ll talk about that, next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GIULIANI: I would prosecute all those people for perjury.
MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Wow, really?
GIULIANI: Well, I mean, to testify falsely in a case at which you can
put a man in jail for the rest of his life is an extremely serious --
KELLY: But you know how unreliable eyewitness testimony is. I mean,
I think his belief according to him is, it`s just unreliable. And so,
these people believe they saw what they didn`t see.
GIULIANI: It`s not unreliable. These are people who are friends of
his. These are people who have an ax to grind.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: What former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani said there about
witnesses in the Michael Brown shooting, it`s not an isolated sentiment.
I`ve heard a lot of people, seen a lot of people on social media saying
something to that effect.
And one of the people who have been targeted by such criticism, people
assuming he must be lying is Dorian Johnson. He`s one of the three people
actually involved in the incident that ended with Darren Wilson killing
And last night, right next to the spot where Brown was shot dead,
Dorian Johnson told me what he recalled or what he saw that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Gunshots go off, right, inside the car, is that correct?
DORIAN JOHNSON, FRIEND OF MICHAEL BROWN: He shot from inside the car,
yes. Darren Wilson shot from inside the car. He was not outside the car
when the first shots went off.
HAYES: You fall to the ground, is that what happened?
HAYES: What happened?
JOHNSON: I was standing up. I was standing up, I turned and looked -
HAYES: And you`re right next to Michael at this point.
JOHNSON: I`m standing right next to him. I turned and looked at him
and saw that he was struck and blood was on his shirt. I saw that he was
struck. He had on a white shirt and blood ran down his shirt. That`s how
I knew that he was hit.
HAYES: And what does Mike do?
JOHNSON: We ran. That`s when we ran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Now, there are places where Dorian`s recollection appears to
be contradicted by forensic evidence. For instance, although he`s said
that Mike Brown`s hands were never inside Darren Wilson`s vehicle, forensic
evidence shows Michael Brown`s blood on the gun, on the uniform and inside
But that does not mean that Dorian Johnson is lying or even
untrustworthy. Memory, after all, is a tricky thing. And despite Rudy
Giuliani`s advice, St. Louis county prosecutor Bob McCulloch does not plan
to prosecute witnesses for perjury. Here`s how he explained it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB MCCULLOCH, ST. LOUIS CO. PROSECUTOR: I think there are a number
of witnesses, in all honesty, that truly believe what they said. And the
ones who were consistent throughout even in the face of their testimony
being in conflict with the physical evidence that was there. I think they
truly believe that that`s what they saw. But they didn`t.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: This phenomenon that Bob McCulloch explains there without the
definitive they didn`t is why every piece of eyewitness testimony in the
history of criminal trials has probably diverted in some way from what
If you want to get a sense of how true this is take a look at what the
folks put together over at PBS. It compares the testimony of several
witnesses who saw what took place in August 9th, and their testimony before
the grand jury, to some key details from Officer Wilson`s report. And
there is essentially no unanimous consensus on any one detail. None.
According to PBS` analysis of more than 500 pages of witness
testimony, more than 50 percent of the witnesses said that, yes, Michael
Brown did indeed hold his hands up when Darren Wilson shot him. And only
five witnesses said that Brown reached towards his waist during the
confrontation as Wilson contended.
Inconsistencies are going to happen. They`re part of every criminal
case that has eyewitness testimony, and yet somehow, people are indicted,
people are put in prison, even placed on death row based on eyewitness
Joining me now is David Feige. He`s a former public defender who
spent a lot of time studying the issues of eyewitness identification.
Great to have you here. Author of "Indefensible."
So, you know, McCulloch gets up and says, look, you guys think there
was this inconsistent story. But when we talked to all these witnesses and
there`s just all these inconsistencies.
DAVID FEIGE, FORMER PUBLIC DEFENDER: Right. Done.
FEIGE: Yes, he does. He says that and it`s kind of nonsensical,
HAYES: Why it is nonsensical?
FEIGE: It`s nonsensical because as you just pointed out, eyewitness
testimony is seldom consistent, and by the way, seldom accurate. And more
importantly, there`s little correlation between certainty and accuracy.
HAYES: What do you mean by that? Someone says I absolutely positive
I saw --
FEIGE: Exactly. Rudy Giuliani may prefer operative football. But if
you`re ever watching a football game with a pal and you watched a
contentious call and you`re absolutely sure his feet were in. The other
guy is absolutely sure his feet were out.
FEIGE: And we don`t have instant replay. We don`t have slow mo --
HAYES: Exactly right.
FEIGE: -- to take a look at it and say, OK, here`s what actually
And the problem is, without those high angle cameras, we`re left with
I`m sure of one thing, you`re sure of another.
HAYES: And in this case, part of what we have is we have one account
-- I`ve read now a lot of this testimony, I`ve read all of Dorian Johnson`s
testimony, all of Darren Wilson`s testimony.
The Darren Wilson testimony is quite compelling and partly because
alone I think among people, he`s a professional testifier before juries.
HAYES: I mean, that`s one thing that police have going for them when
their account is put up against someone else, right? It`s a routine part
of a police officer`s job.
FEIGE: And, by the way, they`re trained in doing so. Let`s not
forget. Most police officers are trained on how to testify -- a skill that
comes in handy when you`re testifying in your own behalf.
HAYES: You know, there`s a part on which Darren Wilson walks people
through him cycling through his use of four options. And it`s very
compelling and very clear and distinct, I could have used a flashlight, but
it was in the wrong place, I could have used the baton but the angle
wouldn`t have worked. So, he wasn`t having tasers and he walks through.
What he`s describing is series of mental states that are happening in three
FEIGE: Three seconds? In an instant.
HAYES: So that to me just struck me as excellent story telling but
not necessarily bearing any resemblance to the actual mental process that`s
happening at the time.
FEIGE: It`s entirely constructed and it`s entirely constructed by
lawyers going through, hey, listen, man, having proffered witnesses to the
grand jury, I can tell you, you go through this. They`re going to want to
know, why didn`t you do this, why didn`t you do that? You have to explain
And so, of course, it is not an accurate representation of his mental
HAYES: It`s almost impossible to do that.
FEIGE: Yes. I mean, but what it is, is a brilliant re-creation of
what a jury wants to hear so as to get to the conclusion you want them to
HAYES: So, then, like what`s the takeaway here? I feel like we`re
into some new phase now and Bob McCulloch, in releasing all this, is
everyone is going to basically his feet were in, his feet were out, like
not to be glib about it, but the very high stakes version of that is what
we have now.
FEIGE: In a way -- I mean, look, what he did is an astonishing thing.
We shouldn`t lose sight of that, which is he sought to avoid a politically
uncomfortable decision by punting to the grand jury but in his press
conference essentially revealed --
HAYES: That this is what he thought was proper.
FEIGE: Yes, that`s right, and that he had his thumb on the scale the
whole time. And it is the abuse of hallowed notion of transparency that
bothers me most about this whole thing.
HAYES: What do you mean by that?
FEIGE: If you`re going to wrap yourself in this very important idea,
which is we`re going to let it all be free. We`re going to make it open.
We`re going to let the information come out. When in fact what you`re
doing is, like I said, putting your thumb on the scale, that`s a problem
because, frankly it`s a perversion of the process.
HAYES: So then to come back to the fact that everyone`s in this
ridiculous situation trying to construct their own trial, right, based on
this and divine what actually happened and who is reliable and who is not,
what does that say about how the system works? Like given that eyewitness
testimony is unreliable, given the fact that there are people on death row
and life sentences based on eyewitness testimony, routinely -- some of
which is proven false. How functional is the enterprise of the criminal
FEIGE: Well, not very. And I think one of the things that you find
whenever you dig deeply into a case, is just how many flaws there are, just
how deeply the systemic problems, you know, how deeply they run.
HAYES: That`s -- what you just said there is key, because in the
particularities of the Darren Wilson case, because we dug that deeply, we
are seeing all the ugliness around the prosecution, right?
HAYES: But if you took that same level to any case that you walk
into, you would suddenly start finding a lot of the same stuff.
FEIGE: You could show up for a trial in the Bronx tomorrow and, if
you spent the time, you could unpack all of these very same issues.
HAYES: That is key. David Feige, great pleasure. That was really
HAYES: In all our collective anxiousness to get where we`re going for
Thanksgiving, there`s probably one thing you will not find yourself doing,
hopefully -- it`s this. The story behind this photo, next.
HAYES: In the annals of travel indignities you may be facing right
now or have ever faced in all of your holiday season experiences, this
image would certainly qualify. Yes, those are passengers outside their
airplane in Siberia pushing it. Or at least that`s how it appeared when it
started circulating on social media as a kind of too good to check story.
I mean, it`s pretty incredible that those passengers would be getting out
in freezing temperatures to push their 30-ton plane on its way down the
But you have to think, how would that work exactly? Once the plane
started going. Would people jump up and grab the sides of it the way you
would throw yourself into an old beater?
So spoiler alert, we checked and apparently what really happened was
the plane had frozen to the ground in the sub zero temperatures and had to
be towed and the passengers got off to lighten the load. They thought it
would be funny to pose for a selfie of them moving the plane and they were
Eventually they made it home, albeit with a slight delay. Now, as a
winter storm pummels the east coast, more than 700 flights have been
canceled just today. So, get ready to get out and push, everybody.
HAYES: One of the most prestigious, storied universities in the
country, university founded by Thomas Jefferson, University of Virginia,
now finds itself in total crisis. And this is in the wake of a bombshell
investigative report alleging gang rape at one of its fraternities as well
as a system at the university that simply has not come to grips with how to
handle that or any of the other multiple instances of alleged sexual
A Rolling Stone report published seven days ago opens with an
absolutely horrific story of gang rape at the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity at
the University of Virginia in the fall of 2012. Indeed, it reads like a
ritualized gang rape as frat initiation.
The victim, identified simply as Jackie in the article, and eventually
reported the incident to the head of the school`s sexual misconduct board,
Dean Nicole and for reasons which we will discuss momentarily Jackie has
not filed a criminal complaint.
But in the more than two years since her assault, two other women
approach Jackie relating gang rape incidents that occurred allegedly at the
same fraternity and Jackie relayed this information to the dean in May of
2014, but it was not until September of this year having learned of Rolling
Stone`s probe into Jackie`s story that UVA at last placed Phi Kappa Psi
under investigation and within days of Rolling Stone article being
published, university`s president Teresa Sullivan suspended all 62
fraternities and sororities on campus until January 9 pending the
university`s next steps.
Just yesterday, board of visitors announced a zero tolerance policy
for sexual assault.
It`s obviously an aspirational goal, Rector George Keith Martin said
after the meeting. At this point it`s premature to say how it will be
At that meeting, President Sullivan they spoke of the school`s
responsibility to protect students from sexual violence.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERESA SULLIVAN, PRESIDNET, UNIV. OF VIRGINIA: If we can`t deliver on
fundamental duty, then we, all of us, we will have failed. Jackie`s
experience should not have happened, and nothing like it should ever happen
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: But according to the Rolling Stone report, in the last
academic year 38 students went to Dean Eramo about sexual assault, up from
20 students three years ago. However, of those 38 only nine resulted in
complaints and of those nine complaints, four resulted in sexual misconduct
According to the Rolling Stone investigation, since 1998, 183 students
have been expelled from UVA for honor code violations like cheating on a
test or stealing and yet no one has ever been expelled for sexual assault.
Protests have erupted at UVA following the Rolling Stone article.
University of Virginia is one of 86 schools undergoing a title 9
investigation for possible
inadequate handling of sexual assault complaints by the Department of
Joining me now Laura Dunn, executive director of SurvJustice, an
organization that fights for justice for survivors of sexual violence.
Laura, I`ve now read the Rolling Stone article multiple times. And
the details are so horrific that I think of myself as someone inclined to
believe survivors and they were so terrible, I had to read it a few times
to convince myself that it was true because it`s just almost so
incomprehensible that this could be happening.
LAURA DUNN, SURVJUSTICE: Oh, absolutely. I myself am a survivor of
sexual assault. I had two men rape me when I was a freshman. And I can
tell you from living through that experience, it`s hard for victims to
believe that has
happened to them, and then to go into a community that not only has no
sympathy for what you`ve been through, but actively discourages you from
It is hard to understand how it actually gets that horrible on a
campus, but it is happening every day.
HAYES: OK, so we have a situation here where we have this woman who
sort of at the center of this, Dean Eramo. She is the one who sort of
stuff and she is, as reported in the article, kind of beloved by survivors.
And she is running this process in which she offers people with these
allegations a kind of choice of how they want to pursue what happens.
What`s wrong with offering them choice?
Like, what is going wrong in this process such that no one`s being
held to account even though it seems that in some ways the process is
designed to be as compassionate as possible?
DUNN: That`s a great question. So this dean who is supposed to be an
advocate for victims, she on one hand is trying to be victim centered
making sure that victims are truly choosing what they want to do, but what
she`s not doing is actually what`s required under 2001 title 9 guidance,
which is when a victim doesn`t feel comfortable moving forward, you are
actually supposed to address their fears and say if you`re afraid of
retaliation, we as a school will do more to protect you.
You are supposed to be not only letting people know about their
options to go to police, but encouraging it and facilitating it. It is an
active duty. Because you -- survivors do want justice, but they need to
feel like they have a real shot at getting it and that they`re not alone
and it won`t cost them more than the
likelihood of them getting justice.
And so what the dean wasn`t doing is really saying this is wrong. We
have your back. You can ask for justice and we will make sure you get it.
But you know from UVA`s own stats, they weren`t giving justice to victims.
The ones that did come forward, there wasn`t expulsions, there wasn`t
massive investigations, so she knew that going in.
HAYES: In fact, here is the dean talking about why students have not
been expelled even when they have admitting guilt. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO LCIP)
DEAN NICOLE ERAMO, UVA SEXUAL MISCONDUCT BOARD: Honestly, I feel in
condition text of an informal resolution meeting there`s no advantage to
admitting guilt, there`s no need to admit guilt. They`re not actually in a
hearing proceeding. And I feel like if a person is willing to come forward
in that setting and admit that they violated the policy when there`s
absolutely no advantage to do so, that that does deserve some
consideration, that they`re willing to say that
I`ve done something wrong and I recognize that and I`m willing to take my
licks and deal with it, that`s very important to me. I think that shows a
level of understanding of what they did that I don`t see in a hearing
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: This is the entire absurdity of the process and not just at
UVA, colleges across the -- I mean, what we`re talking about as alleged in
the article are multiple men drugging, holding down a woman and brutally
raping her and the way that it`s talked about in that context is like
someone slighted someone or said
a mean thing in a seminar.
DUNN: Well, the worst part is I`ve heard college administrators
across the country speak just like that about this issue. In many cases,
they`re like, oh,
these are young men, they`re confused. They`re just figuring out how sex
works and maybe they made a mistake. What they`re forgetting about is the
lives of women who are being actively destroyed in a horrific way that
leads some people to take their own life, even Jackie was thinking about
that at some point.
So, colleges aren`t understanding sexual violence at all.
HAYES: OK. So here is my next question for you, Laura. I read this
-- if I`m UVA, I say, OK, you want to pick on us, UVA, go look at Columbia,
go look at
Yale, go look at Penn State. In fact, I`ll just start naming universities.
And then if you want to come to me and say go look at the Department of
Defense, look at the issues they`ve had, look at various religious orders.
Look at a huge variety of institutions that seem to have the exact same
problem. Like who is getting this right?
DUNN: So actually, one school system who has already been in trouble,
the SUNY school system up in New York, they had been under title 9
investigation, currently have a voluntary resolution agreement, they are
now doing things right.
They`ve collected a work group. They`re making uniform policies. They`re
bringing in advocates, survivors, legal experts, not just administrators,
and they`re trying to be on the forefront of taking this issue. In fact,
they`re limiting the sanctions to only two for any type of gender violence
and that`s suspension or expulsion.
And with suspension, it should be for the duration of the victim`s
academic career so that they are not having to face their rapist.
So I do see some schools, normally after they`re in trouble, go out of
their way to say we`re not going to make this mistake twice and we`re
It really is kind of the younger generations influencing this change.
HAYES: It`s remarkable that it`s a reform to have as a baseline for a
finding of essentially guilty in a hearing as suspension for the duration
of the victim`s time. Laura Dunn, thank you very much.
DUNN: Not at all, thank you.
HAYES: Part of Officer Darren Wilson`s testimony about his initial
confrontation with Michael Brown, the unarmed 18-year-old who he later shot
to death reads as follows, quote, "and when I grabbed him the only way I
can describe it I felt like a 5-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan."
What that statement might say about subconscious bias ahead.
HAYES: Of all the pages and pages of documents reviewed by the grand
jury in the Michael Brown case and released to the public this week, a few
lines in the testimony of the shooter police officer Darren Wilson have
gotten some of the most of the attention. Here`s how Wilson describes his
initial altercation with Michael
"And when I grabbed him, the only way I can describe it is I felt like
a 5-year-old holding on to Hulk Hogan."
Keep in mind this is coming from a police officer just about the same
exact height as Brown, though about 80 pounds lighter. And there is his
description of the way Brown reacted to the first shot fired inside the
police car. "He looked up at me and had the most intensive, aggressive
face. The only way I can describe it, it looks like a demon, that`s how
angry he looked."
And then the moment when he says Michael Brown turns back toward him
on after Officer Wilson fired the first volley of shots, quote, "at this
point it looked like he was almost bulking up to run through the shots like
it was making him mad that I`m shooting at him and the face that he had was
looking straight through me like I wasn`t even there. I wasn`t even
anything in his way."
Wilson`s description of Michael Brown makes him seem almost
superhuman. And there`s some empirical evidence to suggest that this is
how black people are often subconsciously perceived by white people.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL ERIC DYSON: Many people see black kids as older than they are
so that there`s a loss of innocence of black masculinity and other
childhoods. And on the other hand, there`s a lack of humanity ascribed to
these people. You see both of these forces converging here: the lack of
humanity and in that sense the denial of the innocence of this, you know,
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The academic research actually backs that up, including a
series of studies just published in the journal of Social, Psychological
and Personality Science, which found evidence that what the authors call
attribution of supernatural, extra sensory and magical mental and physical
qualities to humans. And that tendency of white people to subconsciously
magnify the powers or strengths of black people.
That might explain why the police officer called in the shooting of
12-year-old Tamir Rice in Cleveland this weekend identified him as a 20-
Now, let`s assume for a second -- and I personally think it`s safe to
assume -- that the two cops involved in that horrible tragic shooting
didn`t show up on the scene intending to take the life of a 12-year-old
boy. But the fact that one of them saw him as a 20-year-old, the way they
responded, may very well reflect the subconscious bias underlying their
perceptions of Tamir Rice. That bias is at the heart of issues around
policing, Mike Brown, the criminal justice system that have unleashed
And the fact that that bias is subconscience and socially ingrained is
what makes it such a deep problem embedded in the soil of our own society
and brain architecture and what makes it so very lethal.
Joining me now Jelani Cobb, contributor of the New Yorker, associate
professor and director of the institute for African-American studies of the
University of Connecticut; and Monifa Bandele, she`s senior campaign
director for Moms Rising.
This to me is like -- there are so many issues stacked up here, but
let`s just focus on this microissue of the perception. I want to extend an
assumption of good faith to Darren Wilson for a moment, that he is
reporting accurately his
perception. And in the case of the police officer who called in Tamir Rice
has no reason to lie at this moment that he thinks he`s 20. It`s going to
be found out, right?
What do you do about that? Like, people are walking around with these
biases, it`s been shown in a lab. So, that what do you do about it?
JELANI COBB, NEW YORKER: If I knew the answer to that, I can solve
HAYES: Well, Jelani, we...
COBB: I know.
HAYES: We have a few minutes here. I actually...
MONIFA BANDELE, MOMSRISING: Your magical and superhuman.
HAYES: Yes, exactly. I as a white person expect you to have the
COBB: This is the Green Mile or the legend of Bagger Vance, or we can
kind of go through the genre -- 2008 Barack Obama.
But I think that it`s important to recognize that this has also been a
basis for actual policy. You remember the kind of concerns around cocaine
was that it would make black men immune to pain and more prone to rape
white women. And so, you know, and this is going back to the 1920s, people
were kind of saying these kinds of things.
In addition to that, there`s also the kind of other side of this which
is that there have been medical studies that show that people give blacks
less effective pain killers or lower doses of pain killers because of the
presumption that we are somehow or another just more capable of dealing
with pain, yeah.
BANDELE: And more capable of dealing with pain, more criminal, less
human, I mean, all of this is happening in the context of Missouri where
are 66 percent more likely to be pulled over by law enforcement than
whites. And blacks and Latinos are disproportionately searched after those
stops even though
paraphernalia is more likely to be found on whites.
So, the answer to your question, we don`t know, how do we deal with
this? But it`s there and it`s creating an environment that`s very sick and
HAYES: It`s sick and dangerous, and I think it -- I don`t know. I`ve
talked to a lot of cops and people who work in the criminal justice system.
And there`s something about that work that also takes those biases and kind
of ramps them up in some ways, because a lot of times you are dealing with
people at their worst. When you`re showing up to a call as a police
officer, a lot of times you`re showing up to the worst moment in that
person`s life, like the moment when they`re least composed, most angry,
most upset, most out of control.
And so, you`re seeing people, particularly if you`re in communities in
which you`re policing people of a different race, right, all you`re doing
is being exposed to them in a certain kind of context, which seems to then
have this kind of reinforcing effect, right. So it all builds upon itself.
COBB: That`s the argument for community policing, isn`t it? If
someone is actually engaged with institutions in the community, you don`t
necessarily only know the person who has committed an armed robbery, you
know the person who owns the shop, maybe, you know the local pastor, you
know the teachers in the school, the principals and so on and you get a
more fully developed spectrum of the humanity of the people who live in
HAYES: And in fact in the grand jury testimony you had Darren Wilson
talking about going to Camfield Apartments (ph) and saying it`s an anti-
Like, he`s talking about psyching himself up to go into kind of enemy
BANDELE: But I`m going to push back a little bit, because I don`t
know that, for example, the police response to students rioting when Joe
Paterno was fired on Penn State`s campus, right. Students filed into
downtown. They knocked down light poles, they turned over the media news
van and they also threw rocks at police officers. And I`m not sure that
police officers knew them personally, hung out in the cafeterias, you know,
knew the kid from the commons, but still the response
was very different than what you see in Ferguson.
HAYES: That`s a really great point. I want to pose this question to
someone who used to be a police officer, a beat cop in Baltimore, right
after this break.
HAYES: We`re back. I`m here with Jelani Cobb and Monifa Bandele.
And joining us now is former police officer Peter Moskos. He`s the author
of "Cop in the Hood", which is a fantastic book I recommend every time that
you`re on the show, Peter.
OK, so this idea that all human beings walking around with
subconscious bias, particularly racial bias. But you noted that black
people have similar racial biases and when you put them in a lab and test
them on their racial perceptions of black and white they also have racial
PETER MOSKOS, FRM. POLICE OFFICER: Or put them in a police uniform.
HAYES: Or you put them in a police uniform, which we`ve seen in
Amadou Diallo and Chuck Bell (ph) and a lot of police shootings. And then
the experience of being a police office then kind of ramping up that bias.
So, how do you untangle that?
MOSKOS: It`s tough to untangle once you`re on the job for a long
time. Part of the problem, I think, is when you do recruit cops of any
race from places where they don`t police. But if your first experience
with African-American men is in
a dangerous neighborhood somewhere, all your stereotypes are reconfirmed.
You`re only seeing people on their worst days. No one invites you to their
weddings and graduations and so on. So, it`s very easy to have stereotypes
That said, I do think it`s important to say that especially in times
of danger, I`m a little hesitant to say there`s some inherent system where
cops only shoot black people and not white people because lots of white
people get shot, too.
HAYES: Right, but the numbers here are pretty disproportionate,
right. I mean, we know there`s 20 -- Propublica analysis and the data on
this is really spotty.
MOSKOS: It`s wrong. The real number by their method should be 9 to
1, three years is an outlier. But that`s another story.
HAYES: OK, so let`s it`s 9 to 1, right. But the homicide rate for
that group is 15 to 1 disproportionate. So, I don`t know what number we
would expect to see. It`s not going to be 1 to 1.
COBB: But if we`re talking about unarmed people, like if we talk
about the homicide rate being 15 to 1, let`s remove those people from the
equation. Let`s simply talk about people who should not have been shot and
you still wind up with that being a disproportionately black group.
Now, if we`re talking about kind of interactions you have with people
on their worst day and kind of how it reconfirms ideas and so on, but the
problem here, the difficulty here is that if that person is in a working-
neighborhood where there`s a guy who maybe had too much to drink and comes
home and punches his wife, you know, in the face, that is an individual
drunk abuser, it doesn`t relate to some broader correlation of who he is as
part of his demographic
But when we talk about black people all of a sudden it becomes this
template that we apply.
BANDELE: We also want to throw in the stats around stop and frisk
where it`s we`re not dealing with any type of homicides or anything, you
know. There`s a disproportionate stopping of African-Americans not only in
New York City, across the country, but in that particular situation, many
of them, there was no reason for the stop.
HAYES: So that -- this gets to a good point, right, which is that are
we talking about a psychological phenomenon in the mind of police officers
how they`re socialized institutionally or are we talking about a policy,
right, because stop and frisk is a great example, right...
BANDELE: You find just as much marijuana in some parts of New York as
you would in -- but you`re going to find more in Bedstai (ph), because
you`re stopping more people.
HAYES: And that`s a combination of the two. So, the question now is
a sort of reform question, right. Is like what -- are you working on the
brain of the cop or are you working on what you`re telling them to do on
MOSKOS: You have to work on the overall system. The cop is doing on
the street is he`s answering calls, he`s responding to robberies, suspects,
those are the cop`s job. I think it`s too much to sort of say there`s a
grand psychological strings you can pull on that cop.
Recruit better cops, train better cops, and then worry about the real
racism that exists in places like Ferguson. But to try and take one
example and then put all of society`s ills on one officer I think is -- it
won`t solve the problem.
COBB: It`s wrong to blame Darren Wilson, you`re absolutely right
because Darren Wilson only exists there at the behest of a system that
wanted him to
function in the way that he has. And so if this were a place where it`s
not accidental that the electoral results are the way they are, the
electoral representation is what it is...
MOSKOS: And cities are funded by fines, by...
COBBS: ...all these things. So, let`s not blame Darren Wilson for
simply doing what he was put there to do, let`s talk about the entirety of
this system which says that these people were there to be subjugated, they
were there to be policed, they were not there to be protected and served.
And this is a kind of broader reflection of white supremacy.
I don`t want to make t -- it almost seems too easy to say this is
about Darren Wilson`s individual problems.
BANDELE: But I do want to talk about Darren Wilson and police
officers and their lack of accountability and how anyone would behave when
they`re basically can operate with impunity, right, because they`re never
held accountable for what they do.
You know, imagine if a doctor never got pulled from the board, you
know, imagine if a lawyer was never censured. And that`s what we see over
and over again and that`s what the protests yesterday were about, not just
what happened, but how
time and time again there`s no recourse.
MOSKOS: Ironically, cops feel victimized.
BANDELE: That`s very ironic.
MOSKOS: But they are fired, they are departmentally -- so a lot of
that is not seen. B ut cops certainly would never say they`re immune.
HAYES: And this is a key -- I think perceptionally, incredibly
understanding this whole thing and how this has all played out. Jelani
Cobb, Monifa Bandele, Peter Moskos, Thank you guys all.
I just want to take a moment. It`s been a sort of rough 48 hours in
this country, dispiriting, to say the least. I found myself with my soul
kind of squeezed out watching what happened in Ferguson Monday night. It
was really upsetting.
And I`ve never looked forward to a Thanksgiving like I am to this one.
I just want to say thank you, the viewer, to watching. Thank you to all
the people in my family who I am going to be with and my daughter who turns
three on Friday. And for everyone to maybe take a moment at this
Thanksgiving to try to enlarge their empathetic qualities and faculties and
to offer some grace to people across the table from them, across the social
divide from them and to give thanks for what we do have.
That is "ALL IN" for this evening.
THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts now with Steve Kornacki, filling in for
Good evening, Steve.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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