All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, January 8th, 2015
Read the transcript from the Thursday show
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: January 8, 2015
Guest: Christopher Dickey, Irshad Manji, Juan Cole, Benjamin Crump; Feisal
Abdul Rauf; Matthieu Aikins; Harry Shearer
MATTHEWS: Three days of working in Brooklyn to put this story together.
And I`ve got to tell you, Margulies is such a pro. I hope she wins every
award for ever.
Thank you, Kim Masters.
That`s HARDBALL for now. "ALL IN" with Chris Hayes starts right now.
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC ANCHOR: Tonight on ALL IN.
The city of lights goes dark as the manhunt continues in Paris. Tonight,
the latest on the suspects who continue to elude capture.
Our first look inside the offices where masked gunmen opened fire as
"Charlie Hebdo" makes a big announcement about its future.
A look at the small, but diverse group of people suggesting the cartoonists
had it coming. And the decision by some media outlets to not publish
"Charlie Hebdo" cartoons.
Plus the other manhunt in Colorado. We`ll have the latest on the NAACP
And just when you thought the Tamir Rice case couldn`t get any worse. Wait
until you see the new video released by Cleveland Police.
ALL IN starts right now.
HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.
A day after the worst attack in France in half a century and hours into
another nightfall following the brutal murder of 12 people, an all-out
manhunt is now centered on a forest close to the town of Longpont about 60
miles northeast of Paris. Longpont, along with two other towns, gas been
the focus today of a search by air and by land, including SWAT teams going
door-to-door following the last reported sighting of the suspects, brothers
Cherif and Said Kouachi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: "This man had been eating in the town of Longpont,
an hour from Paris. He left as the police arrived amid reports two men
with guns had abandoned a car and fled to the forest."
Earlier a petrol station a few miles away had been held up by two men with
a rocket launcher in their car. It`s believed Cherif and Said Kouachi
fired shots as they left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: All told, 88,000 security personnel have been mobilized and the
French Interior Ministry says 4,000 military personnel will be added
tomorrow. Police are following up with 90 witnesses who made reports,
according to the Interior Ministry. More details are now emerging about
the suspect, Cherif Kouachi, participating in a documentary on
radicalization 10 years a ago. Shown here.
Cherif was convicted of terrorism charges in 2008 and sentenced to a year
and a half in jail. That arrest and prosecution stemmed from his
association with an Islamist cell enlisting French nationals from a Paris
mosque to go to Iraq to fight Americans.
Two senior counterterrorism officials tell NBC News that Cherif`s brother
Said Kouachi traveled to Yemen in 2011 to be trained by al Qaeda in Yemen.
One of the sources tells NBC News the training lasted several months.
The third suspect,. 18-year-old Hamid Mourad, surrendered but he reportedly
turned himself in after seeing his name in the news. And he`s professing
And there is this. Early today a shooting in Montrouge, a suburb of Paris.
A female police officer was killed. Another person reportedly (INAUDIBLE),
see if she was injured and is serious condition. SWAT teams arrive at this
site, as well, but it is not yet known if there`s any connection to
The horror and full implications of what transpired yesterday morning in
Paris only began to make its mark. There is this image, the "Charlie
Hebdo" office which hours after the massacre had been transformed from an
everyday, comfortably, mundane setting into a true nightmare.
In its counter point, a National Moment of Silence today led by President
Francois Hollande on this official day of mourning.
Worldwide expressions of solidarity through vigils. Countless individual
expressions of support.
Late today President Obama made an unexpected visit to the French embassy
in Washington to express his condolences.
Joining me now on the phone where he`s traveling back to Paris, from the
location of the manhunt today is Bill Neely, NBC News chief global
And Bill, what is the latest in the manhunt? It strikes me as somewhat
surprising that they remain at large?
BILL NEELY, NBC NEWS CHIEF GLOBAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, they still are. The
police are being very enigmatic about it. Since the massacre, the police
have not given a single news conference. So we don`t what they`re
thinking. But if you`re to judge anything by the number of officers that
they are pouring into the area about an hour north of Paris, it`s clear
they do believe that they have the suspects or believe the suspects to be
in this area.
There are literally dozens if not hundreds of counterterrorism police, a
SWAT team, even military in this area. The police and military have been
using five helicopters today.
It`s a rural area about an hour north of the capital city. All of the
roads in the small area are closed off. And the police have been going
from far-to-farm, from village-to-village, telling people in some cases to
They do believe that they`ve got the man in this area. Indeed there was a
report which again the police haven`t been able to confirm, that one of the
teams in the police helicopter had spotted men with weapons on the ground.
It`s dark here now. It`s in the middle of the night and the police were
earlier using a helicopter with night vision equipment. But they have, to
all intents and purposes, now suspended the search until first light.
But yes, I mean, this isn`t a ring of steel that these men could have
slipped through an area. As I say, it`s fields and a forest. It`s not a
ring of steel and then men could quite easily have alluded capture. And as
you say, they`ve been on the run for, well, the best part of two days now.
HAYES: Do we know anything further about or are there reports that you
could confirm anyway about this third suspect? Yesterday it seemed quite
clear at a certain point that three people have been associated with this.
We have the two brothers and we have this Hamid Mourad, whose picture we
didn`t had, who was quite a bit younger than the other two. Reports he`d
turned himself in.
Do we know one way or the other if he actually was a suspect? If this is a
case of mistaken identity? Has there been any resolution on that?
NEELY: Well, he was certainly a suspect, although again not named formally
by police. He turned himself in allegedly because his name was -- are
being used on social media. He -- as you say, he`s 18 and he`s in police
custody at the moment being questioned. They can hold him for, I think,
roughly around another 24 hours or less. And then they would have to apply
permission to continue holding and questioning him.
He insists, apparently, that he had nothing to do with the attack at all.
But the police have also insisted that there was a third person apart from
these two brothers involved in the massacre.
HAYES: I had also seen some reports that the police had questioned the
Kouachi brothers` parents, had talked to a lot of people.
Do we have any confirmation one way or the other on that?
NEELY: We know that they raided a number of homes in another city north of
Paris where the brothers have their -- if you like their family base. So
they have questioned family members of the brothers. The parents were not
sure if it was them. Again, the police are giving very, very little
information, which is quite typical of a French investigation.
It`s very different from the U.S. or even the U.K. where the police will
give regular news conferences. They`re simply not doing that here and
they`re still under no pressure to do so.
HAYES: Bill Neely, thank you very much. Really appreciate it.
Joining me now, Christopher Dickey, foreign editor of "The Daily Beast."
And Christopher, can you tell me what the mood one day after this horrible
murder in Paris was like today?
CHRISTOPHER DICKEY, FOREIGN EDITOR, THE DAILY BEAST: I would say it`s
somber and it`s nervous. I think you saw a lot of indications of that.
Certainly, there was the public mourning, the moment of silence at noon. I
think even in the middle of the January sales, people went -- most people
went silent. You have that incredibly dramatic scene when the Eiffel Tower
went dark ay 8:00.
But apart from that, there are police all over the place. They seem to be
at every major intersection in the center of Paris. Directing traffic,
sometimes snarling traffic, diverting traffic. There are sounds of sirens
going here, there, and everywhere. I think people are really very nervous.
If you go into the subway, there are a lot of fewer people in the subway
than you would normally see, I`d say even fewer people on the streets.
I think people are very concerned. They don`t like it that these two
shooters, or maybe three, are out there roaming around with their guns.
Even if for the moment they seem to be isolated somewhere up in the north
toward the Arden.
HAYES: We`ve gotten word from unnamed counterterrorism official, U.S.
officials that one of these brothers, Said Kouachi, went to Yemen. He
trained possibly with al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, al Qaeda in Yemen,
I imagine that there`s also some fear about the degree to which this was a
planned attack. And it is a priority both for investigators there but also
in terms of the public feeling that these men be either apprehended and
some determination made about the extent of this plot.
DICKEY: Well, exactly, Chris. I mean, it`s not just these gunmen who are
scary. It`s the idea that there may be other groups, other cells that
would operate just like them. That may be as skilled as them. Maybe more
skilled than them who would carry out attacks on other soft targets.
There`s also the risk of copycat killings and attacks, which may be what we
saw in the south of Paris earlier today. You know, the French officials
are saying that the south of Paris shooting and the "Charlie Hebdo"
shooting, they are not related at this stage. They can`t say that they`re
related at this stage. But you can certainly say that when a guy with a
bulletproof vest and the powerful rifle and a pistol shoots a policewoman
for no apparent reason, it`s not exactly a normal, everyday occurrence here
So I think there`s a lot of concerns about spreading violence. There`s
also a lot of concern about the kind of cleavage that`s going to occur in
French society between the Muslim population and the secular population or
HAYES: Talk a little bit more about that. We saw some isolated reports of
possible attacks on mosques in France today. And obviously this kind of
fault line about the Muslim population of French which is somewhere on 8
percent to 10 percent, and how it relates to the French state and French
society and French traditions of secularism, et cetera, have been a main,
prime, political line of conflict in France.
DICKEY: Well, it has been for a long time. I mean, France has a really a
huge Muslim population. Somewhere between five million and six million
people which would be about the percentages you were talking about before.
Now those people are not all going to mosques. Far from it. I would say
they`re just about as little or as much religious as most of the population
is. But they do come from a different background. And in France, as in
other parts of Europe, they never simulated terribly well.
Maybe here better than in some other parts of Europe. But the net result
is that you have a lot of racism, basically, that doesn`t speak its name,
but it addresses -- but that acts as something opposed to Islam. The
problem is Islam, it`s not that -- it`s not that I don`t like brown people,
it`s not that I don`t like Arabs, it`s that I don`t like Islam.
DICKEY: So that`s a discourse that you hear in France and that`s a
discourse that you hear all over Europe. And the "Charlie Hebdo" thing
plays right into that. If you would look at a really extreme example of
that kind of attitude, (INAUDIBLE) in The Netherlands, he`s a very powerful
politician there, what is his line? His line is, "We don`t tolerate people
who are intolerant."
DICKEY: Muslims are intolerant, Islam is intolerant. It has no place in
Europe. And that`s a discourse that`s going to gain ground as a result of
this. And that is probably -- I don`t think that these guys, who were the
shooters, I don`t think they`re big, strategic thinkers. But if there is a
strategy here, if there is somebody behind this, say, Ayman Zawahiri, then
it could be -- it could draw -- it could make things a lot worse here in
HAYES: Christopher Dickey, thank you for your time.
In the past 24 hours, it`s become abundantly clear that notwithstanding
this attack, "Charlie Hebdo" will keep publishing. The magazine is
planning to print one million copies of its next edition instead of the
usual 60,000. More than $300,000 have been raised to the digital
innovation press fund back in part by Google, the French culture minister
has pledged the equivalent of about $1.2 million to keep the magazine
Joining me Irshad Manji, founder of the Moral Courage Project at New York
You`re someone who -- you`ve been in a situation not completely dissimilar
from the folks at "Charlie Hebdo". Not -- you have faced threats yourself,
you read a book called "The Trouble with Islam" which was tremendously
What is your reaction to this news and the kind of rush of support we`ve
seen sort of solidarity from press outlets, not just I would say in Europe,
but I`ve seen a lot of cartoonists in Egypt, I`ve seen -- I saw someone
staring on the streets in Syria today, at "Charlie Hebdo."
IRSHAD MANJI, FOUNDER, MORAL COURAGE PROJECT: Right.
HAYES: There does seem to be a defense of these values across a whole wide
range of different societies:
MANJI: Cast your mind back to 2006, Chris, during the Prophet Mohammad
cartoon crisis coming out of Denmark. Even at that time, almost 10 years
ago, I remembering receiving e-mails from young Muslims in various parts of
the world saying, you know, I might be offended by the cartoons, but I am
even more offended by the violence that`s being committed in the name of
Now that angle didn`t get very much coverage. And not surprisingly.
MANJI: It wasn`t sensational.
HAYES: Those were e-mails and it wasn`t a burning of the Danish flag.
MANJI: Exactly right. It wasn`t sensational. But I can tell you that
over the past 10 years, since then, I`ve received more of these kinds of
messages than of the hate. That we are constantly being told Muslims are -
- you know, are expressing.
And I have to say that while I appreciate where Chris Dickey was going with
his analysis that the right, political right may very well be gaining more
ground as a result of, you know, the wedge that a crime like this drives
HAYES: And we should say, that from the national front there it`s already
MANJI: Yes. And it is -- it is quite strong. But the other sort of piece
of this story is that there is a very clear indicator suggesting that a new
generation of Muslims is actually more interested in integration than in
cleavage. For example, the rate of intermarriage between Muslims and non-
Muslims is high and is on the rise.
HAYES: In France, you`re saying.
MANJI: In France. And historically, intermarriage is an indicator of
integration and social cohesion.
HAYES: You also have this issue in France which I think is important to
kind of zero in on here, which in America, we have conversations about
race, particularly as it relates to African-American immigration. That`s
one vector of our debates. And then we have the kind of war on terror
foreign policy. And those are kind of two different channels, our
political debates happening on. They`re both intensely important issues
and they get people very passionate.
In France, those issues essentially lay atop each other. I mean, to the
extent there`s a cultural politics about immigration, cultural politics
about a, quote, "underclass," Muslim-on-Muslim crime, why are they all in
prison? Why are they all poor? Why are they all on welfare? These kind
of tropes you hear here directed at people of color.
HAYES: Those are all there. And then atop this is this other discourse
MANJI: Well, and it goes back to something that Chris Dickey was saying
about, you know, racism that dare not speak its name. There is very much
that in France and I would argue that it goes back to this pillar of
republicanism, which is really the state ideology of France. A pillar of
republicanism called laicite.
MANJI: Which is more than just separation of church and state as we would
know it here.
MANJI: It is actually a disappearing of religion. It is making religion
and faith utterly invisible so that people don`t even have the language
with which to speak its name. And that`s why so many Muslims, though they
are not given, as Chris pointed out, to go to mosque, et cetera,
nonetheless feel systemically excluded from the ability to express all that
they are in France.
Very big difference in that respect between the democracy like France and a
democracy like the United States.
HAYES: That`s really well said there, Irshad Manji. Thank you very much.
HAYES: Evidence that fundamentalist of different faiths all converge at a
certain point. That`s ahead.
HAYES: Tomorrow, a blogger is set to be lashed in a country a U.S.
considers an ally, Saudi Arabia, after being accused of insulting Islam in
an online forum he created. The Associated Press reports, quote, "He will
be publicly flogged the first time after Friday prayers outside a mosque in
the Red Sea coastal city of Jeddah."
Raif Badawi was sentenced 10 years in prison, 1,000 lashes and was ordered
to pay a fine of about $266,000. A member of Badawi`s family spoke to the
Associated Press on condition of anonymity for fear of government reprisal
and said, quote -- Badawi was, quote, `being used as an example for others
The State Department commented on the case today, expressing great concern,
calling the punishment inhumane and asking the Saudi authorities to cancel
it and review his case.
Back in a moment.
HAYES: Well, condemnation of the heinous murders in Paris yesterday,
they`re more or less universal. The attack on "Charlie Hebdo" has started
a debate over the content of the magazine`s satirical cartoons. And on one
extreme end of that debate, there are some people arguing that
"Charlie Hebdo" essentially had it coming.
Those voices appeared to be quire isolated but "USA Today" decided to give
one of them a fairly prominent platform. In an op-ed column today, Anjem
Choudary, is a radical Muslim cleric from London and a favorite foil of
Under the heading, "Opposing View," Choudary wrote in "USA Today," quote,
"The potential consequences of insulting the messenger Mohammed are known
to Muslims and non-Muslims alike. So why in this case that the French
government allow the magazine "Charlie Hebdo" to continue to provoke
Muslims, thereby placing the sanctity of its citizens at risk?
This argument that the magazine or the French government actually invited
the attack in some sense was also advanced by a very different type of
religious figure, another FOX News favorite, Bill Donahue, president of the
Catholic League, who penned an essay entitled, "Muslims are Right to be
angry," writing the following about "Charlie Hebdo" editor (INAUDIBLE), one
of the 12 people killed, quote, "It is too bad he didn`t understand the
role he played in his tragic death. Had he not been so narcissistic he may
still be alive."
Donahue later expanded those argument in appearance on, of course, FOX.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL DONOHUE, CATHOLIC LEAGUE PRESIDENT: The abuse of liberty in this
country and in England by these smart alecs who treat -- who want to take
their middle finger and put into the face of people of faith, that has to
stop, too. How about some restraint and civility and decency on the part
of these people?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And there`s a Russian orthodox activist named Dmitry Enteo.
Apparently well known in his native country, was brought to my attention by
Russian writer (INAUDIBLE). This is a guy who has written up the U.S.
recently for lecturing on whether Vladamir Putin may be god. Yesterday he
tweeted out this image, saying, "The scoffers from France who`d mocked at
Jesus Christ" had received a fair punishment.
And on a day when people gathered at vigils all around the world to mourn
the dead and stand in solidarity with France, Enteo tweeted at me directly
that he was going to pick it outside the French embassy in Moscow or what
he called the offending of religious feelings.
Joining me now, Juan Cole, professor of history, University of Michigan,
author of "The New Arabs."
So, Juan, you had this piece that I thought was excellent yesterday about
the kind of the rationale of extremism, the rationale of terrorism and
fundamentalism, and how different kind of fundamentalism and how different
kind of -- fundamentalism in play off each other.
You said this. "Al Qaeda wants to mentally colonize French Muslims, but
faces a wall of disinterest. But if it can get non-Muslims French to be
beastly, to ethnic Muslims on the ground there, Muslims, it can start
creating a common political identity around grievance against
discrimination, the idea of kind of provoking, trying to get to some point
of maximum polarization, clashes civilization, as the only means of
possibly recruiting people, who by and large have no interest in what
JUAN COLE, HISTORY PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: That`s right. You
know, we`ve seen this story in Iraq where al Qaeda was a small, fringe
group in 2003. But it`s specialized in creating a civil war. They kept
hitting Shiite Muslims, soft targets, weddings, ice cream shops where there
were children, a shrine. And they provoked Shiites to counterattack. To
ethnically cleanse a lot of the Sunnis from the city of Baghdad.
And, over time, they created so much tension between the two communities
that then, last summer, the -- the Sunni Muslims of Mosul allied with an al
Qaeda off-shoot ISIS to throw off the Shiite government. So they actually
made a deal with the people who had put themselves in this position in the
HAYES: Today we have news of a suicide bombing in Iraq targeted at Shia --
at worshippers, in fact. And we have al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula on
the same day as this heinous attack in France setting off suicide bomb that
killed about 30 I believe in a police academy. So this -- we should also
keep in mind that this tactic is deployed routinely, cruelly, and bloodily
day in and day out across regions that are not Europe.
COLE: That`s exactly right. And it`s a horrible, horrible tactic. It`s
brutal. But so far it has worked for them. They have grabbed up 42
percent of Iraq by doing this kind of thing. They have eastern Syria.
They`ve made inroads in Abyan Province in Yemen. And so I think that,
while, you know, there are many reasons for which these terrorists behave
as they did, one thing that al Qaeda would very much like to do is to see a
civil war in Europe between the Muslim minority and the Christian majority.
COLE: which then would make the mainstream Muslims have to turn to them.
HAYES: And we should say at this point, I mean, there`s some -- there is
one eyewitness who says that they -- these men said they were with al
Qaeda. We don`t have any confirmation of that. We do have U.S. officials
saying that one of them trained in Yemen.
There is a question at this point about whether these were two essentially
disaffected brothers who decided to do this by themselves or they have
serious connections, which it looks more and more like it is possible. If
it is the latter, though, I mean, that is what this reads to you to the
extent there`s a strategy as if this is done purposely, these people are
targeted for precisely the kind of polarizing value it might have.
COLE: Yes, these young murderers were French. They were born in France.
They were brought up there. They know exactly the significance in French
politics of what they did. They know what the reaction is likely to do.
COLE: And so it wasn`t just -- I very much doubt that they were consumers
of, you know, small left-wing anarchist publications. It wasn`t just that
they minded this magazine. They wanted to make an object lesson of those
editors and cartoonists, but more importantly they wanted to strengthen the
French right, the far right, Marie Le Pen and National Front, in hopes that
they could create the kind of polarization in France that they -- similar
groups have created in Iraq.
COLE: And that will give them political power. They`ll start to be able
to take over neighborhoods. That these guys were connected to al Qaeda is
not in doubt. One of them went to jail for recruiting for al Qaeda in
Juan Cole, thank you very much. I really enjoyed that piece.
And the NAACP offices around the country are on high alert tonight after
what appears to be an attempt to fire bomb the building that houses their
officers in Colorado Springs two days ago. The latest on the investigation
CHRIS HAYES, ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES HOST: A search is still underway
tonight in this country for a balding white man in his 40s who may be
driving a dirty white pick-up truck with a possible open tailgate or
missing covered license plate. That man, according to federal
investigators, is a person of interest after an improvised explosive device
was detonated outside the building that houses the NAACP Office in Colorado
Springs this week.
As we reported last night, someone placed a homemade explosive next to a
gas can outside the one one-story building which also has a barbershop on
Tuesday. The gas did not ignite, the explosion managed only to char a
small section of the building`s exterior while walking (ph) down a few
items inside. Thankfully, no one was hurt.
Still Washington Post points out NAACP officials around the country remain
on high alert in Boston where the NAACP offices were fire bombed in 1975.
Police have reportedly reached out to local chapter and dispatched a patrol
to watch over the office and thanking local police, the Boston branch notes
quote, "Sometimes the process of making democracy work for everyone comes
at great risk."
The FBI is on record saying the bomb outside the Colorado Springs office
was quote "deliberately set" but the bureau is investigating all potential
motives and that he hate crime is one possibility.
So at this moment, the motive for the attack is still not known, but if we
are dealing with an attempted bombing aimed at NAACP, politically motivated
out of hatred, it should be clear we`re dealing with is an attempted act of
domestic terrorism even as the word grapples with this speaks horrific
attack in Paris, apparently motivated by extremist ideology. It is worth
noting we might very well might also be facing a planned attempted bombing
right here at home at an office for America`s oldest civil rights
HAYES: Tonight, a month and a half after 12-year-old Tamir Rice was shot
and killed by a rookie Cleveland police officer, we have extended video of
the aftermath of that shooting. That video appears to confirm the family`s
version of events which that Tamir Rice`s sister was tackled by officers.
Police have not confirmed that version of events.
Cleveland Police Department originally refused to release the extended tape
only after the Northeast Ohio Media Group hired an attorney to get footage
which they note was shot on publicly owned and operated cameras did the
department eventually relent. And we now have that extended tape and it is
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the video that has previously been released, you see
a police vehicle pull up to a 12-year-old Tamir Rice and shot him twice
within seconds of arriving on the scene. The new, extended video, show`s
Rice`s 14-year-old sister was at the park with her brother running towards
the scene after her brother was shot. She is met by an officer who quickly
tackles her to the ground.
Another officer runs over momentarily to help and then moves away and a
third officer joins in helping to subdue Rice`s sister. You can see the
two officers struggling to subdue the 14-year-old girl who, according to
reports, ran over when she heard two gun shots fired. For several seconds,
the two officers appear to be struggling to handcuff Rice`s older sister,
as her brother lies wounded and alive from the ground several feet away.
Finally, you see the officers pull the girl up and attempt to walk her to
the car she appears to squirm. She wrestles back on to the snow covered
ground while the two officers struggle with her some more. Meanwhile, a
third officer stands by and watches.
Eventually, after several seconds of an apparent struggle, a single officer
marches Rice`s sister who is now in handcuffs into the police vehicle where
he joins the second officer. It put her into the backseat of the car and
shut the door.
Later in the video, a full four minutes after Tamir Rice was shot, a man
who we now know as an FBI agent who happened to in the area arrived on the
scene and gave the boy the first medical care he`d received after being
shot. About eight minutes after the 12-year-old boy was shot twice, a
sizable group of medical personnel arrived on the scene. It walked over to
where Rice is, behind the police car and it appeared to be helping him.
And around 13 minutes after he is shot, he is taken away in a stretcher and
taken to the hospital.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: And during that entire video, Tamir Rice is alive, wounded on the
ground behind that car. He would only die at the hospital later that
Joining me now Benjamin Crump, attorney for the family of Tamir Rice.
Mr. Crump, that footage is pretty hard to watch. It`s -- it`s -- it`s
pretty appalling frankly.
BENJAMIN CRUMP, ATTORNEY FOR THE FAMILY OF TAMIR RICE: Chris, it`s
outrageous and it`s inhumane, to say the least.
HAYES: Do -- do account we got from Samara Rice, Tamir Rice`s mother was -
- was essentially this. That essentially, the police seemed more focused
in the aftermath of shooting her son with subduing her daughter and then
with restraining her when she showed up on the scene and actually attending
to -- to this boy who had been shot and was laying on the ground bleeding.
CRUMP: That`s correct, Chris. This video confirms 100 percent, the
family`s previous account to what happened. In fact, it shows that it was
inappropriate how they shot her 12-year-old son, and it was even more
outrageous how they man handled and tackled her 14-year-old daughter as she
attempted to go to her little brother who had just been shot.
And it was at that point -- it is clear that point they know that this is a
young child because she said you all shot my little brother, you killed my
little brother. Instead of trying to comfort her and console her, they
tackle her, and they put handcuffs on her and put in the backseat of the
car just feet away from her little brother who she watches lying on the
HAYES: And just to be crystal clear her, in the beginning of that video
when we see her running, she is tackled. She is not running in her account
or in the family`s account. She is not running towards the police. She`s
running towards her brother when the police stop her from getting to him.
CRUMP: That`s absolutely correct then in fact there is a cell phone video
of her when she first comes out at the community center where the other
children up when they hear the gunshots and it`s really -- it`s riveting,
Chris because the cell phone video captures her saying, "They killed my
little brother. They killed my little brother." And the other kids are
trying to calm her down. They say no, they didn`t. He`s not dead, just
She said yes, they killed him and other little kids say, no he`s still
moving. He`s alive. And she`s trying to get to him, but as you see in
that video, none of the Cleveland police officers are trying to perform any
CPR or do any medical life -- and care on this kid and you wonder if they
would have done something, would that have enhance his percentage of
HAYES: Do we have access to that cell phone video? Is that -- is that
footage in your possession?
CRUMP: Actually, it`s on the Internet and has been talked about a lot
amongst people in Cleveland where it`s just riveting to hear that young
girl, this 14-year-old girl saying, "They killed my baby brother," and the
children and everybody are concerned. But it doesn`t seem like the
Cleveland police are concerned at all. It looks like they`re just mulling
around as if they are looking for change on the ground. And what is really
shocking is -- is this standard operating procedure.
CRUMP: . with the Cleveland Police Department. It speaks a lot to their
training and their sensitivity. I mean, it`s just so outrageous that you
would tackle this little girl trying to get to her brother and put her in
HAYES: Benjamin Crump, attorney for the Rice Family. Thank you very much.
CRUMP: Thank you.
HAYES: All right. I`m gonna be joined by the Imam behind the Islamic
Center that was proposed (ph) in your ground zero, you remember that, also
a satirist who is the voice of Mr. Burns on the Simpsons and a journalist
who won an award for courage last year. I`ll ask them whether outlets
should be running the Charlie Hebdo cartoons including the most offensive
ones in the wake of the attack on their office in Paris. That`s ahead.
HAYES: The amazing Harry Shearer on the danger of satires ahead, but first
little breaking news from the White House or more specifically casually lit
room on Air Force 1. A professorial President Obama released the following
video today, teasing his new free community college initiative.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: Put simply, what I`d like to do is
to see the first two years of community college free for everybody who`s
willing to work for it. That`s right. Free for everybody who`s willing to
work for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Yes, two years of college for anyone willing to work for it. Now,
what does willing to work for it mean? How will he pay for all of this?
Well, we will find out a little more tomorrow when the president speaks in
Tennessee and the rest when he rolls out this initiative during the State
of the Union Address. What we do know right now, however, is that students
will need to meet a minimum GPA requirement, 2.5 is gonna be the magic
number. So hit the books.
HAYES: Well, I suppose we don`t yet know their motives for certain.
Eyewitness accounts certainly suggest that the terrorists who murdered the
12 people in and around the offices in Charlie Hebdo were motivated by the
satirical newspapers decision to publish among its many provocations
cartoons depicting the Muslim Prophet Muhammad, many of them vulgar.
That has left media outlets grappling with the question of whether to show
those cartoons in the wake of the attack. Those have done so has cited
both the fact the cartoons are a central part of the story and the desire
to make an ideological statement of solidarity with both Charlie Hebdo and
the principle of free speech.
Those who have chosen not to show the cartoons have largely explained their
decision by citing a longstanding policies against showing offensive images
particularly when they are deliberately offensive. NBC News Group has thus
far cleared six images for use, including the final cartoon from murdered
editor, Stephane Charbonnie, a sad depression (ph) depiction of a terrorist
warning of an attack before the end of January. But NBC News Group is not
showing any cartoons depicting Muhammad.
NBC News Group Standards sent guidance to NBC News, MSNBC, and CNBC not to
show headlines or cartoons that could be viewed as insensitive or
The other cable networks, many national news that was in the U.S. have
basically taken a similar approach, while, in Europe, many newspapers have
chosen to publish the Muhammad cartoons as of many online-only news outlets
in the U.S. including BuzzFeed, Slate and the Huffington Post.
A number of news outlets cropped pictures that you couldn`t see the
Muhammad cartoon, some including New York Daily News decided to blur the
images of Muhammad out. The public editor of the New York Times which
elected not to show the Muhammad cartoons today published a story in which
executive editor, Dean Baquet explained that decision which he said it was
not an easy one.
Ultimately, he decided against showing the cartoons in deference to Times
readers especially its Muslim readers. Baquet had quote, "We have a
standard that is long held and has served us well. There`s a line between
gratuitous insult and satire. Most of these are gratuitous insult."
When we return, I`m gonna talk to three people, including Simpson actor
Harry Shearer, the Imam behind the so-called ground zero mosque about
whether they think media outlet should be showing the Muhammad cartoons.
Stay with us.
HAYES: Hi. We`re back and joining me now, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf. He`s
the founder of the Cordoba Initiative. He`s a spiritual leader of proposed
Islamic Center, a few box of ground zero that some saw as controversial.
Journalist Matthieu Aikins, a fellow at the Nation Institute. An
incredible investigative journalist and satirist, Harry Shearer. He`s
voice of Mr. Burns, other characters in the Simpsons and star and creator
of "Nixon is the One" on YouTube
Harry, let me start with you because I think you have a strong feeling that
-- that outlets should be showing these images, even -- even the most
HARRY SHEARER, SATIRIST: Well, I think that the news outlets that have
decided not to should use the hash tag we are not Charlie. I think, you
know, satire is meant to be transgressive. It`s meant to draw blood. The
idea that it should be some sort of, as the Washington Post said this
morning, describing American satire "comfortable" is -- is sort of bizarre.
It`s notable that two of the networks have decided for their news divisions
not to show these images have satire shows which specialize in having
politicians come onto show the public that they`re really, you know, to
humanize them and show that they`re, you know, they`re good guys and have a
sense of humor. I don`t think that`s what satire is about. I would
suggest that if there`s any timorousness about showing these images that
specifically of the cartoons relating to Muhammad, the networks might go
back into the archives of Charlie Hebdo and show images that have made the
Catholic church sue that magazine 14 times.
HAYES: Yeah, I mean, I think there`s this -- so there`s two questions here,
Matthieu I want - there`s -- there`s a question of -- of sort of journalist
standards, right? So, there`s one argument you made which is like, you
know, some of these images and you and I are just talking about. There`s
one cartoon that was done about Boko Haram who`s in the cover, which is
just massively offensive in every way.
It shows the -- the -- the girls kidnapped by Boko Haram, being pregnant,
crying out for their welfare checks. It`s gross and racist and
intentionally offensive. It`s I think kind of -- it was sort of -- with
some layered joke about something the right wing (ph) was doing the time
and at the same time, Boko Haram.
But just sort of like, you know, whether it`s satire or not or it draws
blood (ph), like it`s tasteless and, to me, not in a particularly
So, there`s -- there`s question of do you show things that would be against
your standards anyway? Then there`s this -- the genuine question of
safety, right? I mean, how much do you think safety is playing in here?
MATTHIEU AIKINS, THE NATION INSTITUTE FELLOW: Well, I think that that`s
maybe the news organization has been a little disingenuous and not
mentioning that issue, right? Like if it`s about offensiveness and you
show a Piss Christ which is the, you know, Jesus submerged in a bath of
AIKINS: . that`s pretty offensive. In New York Times and all these places
have showed it, right? So, there`s a -- the reason you don`t wanna show
these Muhammad cartoons I think goes beyond that to one of safety and
frankly if you have a bureau in Baghdad or Kabul (ph) employees there who
are engage in really important journalism. Do you want to jeopardize them
because they`re showing these cartoons? I think it`s not the question that
they probably ask themselves.
HAYES: If you were - you`ve spent a lot of time in Kabul, he`s reporting
there and all through Afghanistan and in places that are quite dangerous,
just as a general matter. What would your feeling be if you`re working for
a news outlet that did choose to run that?
AIKINS: I think the next time that I`m in, you know, Aleppo and hang out
with rebel fighters or just with my Afghan friends in Kabul who`d be really
humiliated by these images. I don`t want to explain them why something
like Charlie Hebdo is what I supposed to live (ph) represent, and I think
that you can specifically defend their right to free speech and the right
to live without necessarily showing these offensive images.
FEISAL ABDUL RAUF, CORDOBA INITIATIVE FOUNDER: I think we`re now in a
situation where we have to look at some global standards. As we know, in
the United States, the -- in the freedom of speech doesn`t mean you can
shout fire in a crowded theater. Values have changed regarding the use of
certain words -- the end word to describe blacks is considered unacceptable
in our society. There are certain boundaries on free speech that we -- we
know or have evolved in our society.
HAYES: As a legal matter is a kind of -- in the first case, you`re talking
about the legal matter, so just to distinguish fire in crowded theater is
a legal standard, right? There`s a certain kind of danger incitement
that`s cited in a -- I believe in all for one to home`s (ph) opinion,
The end word or -- or something like that, that`s a kind of norm or
convention that we say is outside polite (ph) society but it`s not legally
RAUF: Granted. But in both cases, the rationale behind it is a question
of safety of the community and the overall welfare of the community. After
all this is balance, you know, freedom of speech versus the safety of the
society when you crying fire in a crowded theater.
HAYES: Well that sounds -- that sounds very much to but with due respect
that sounds to me.
HAYES: . very much like saying that you are giving.
RAUF: . allow me.
HAYES: . a veto to people that are going.
RAUF: No, no.
HAYES: . to commit this kind of violence.
RAUF: No, no. I`m not saying that. Look. I was just to come to talking
to a friend of mind today who said, "You know, I used to advise congressmen
when they visited the Middle East or the Far East, on -- on how to behave
and sit, and if you sit with a -- in the Far East and cross your leg and
show the person the sole of your foot, they`ll be extremely insulted.
You know, so -- so the -- the use of -- of even hand gestures, you know,
that we - we`re taught these rules. Now, as we have a globalize society, I
think we need to revisit the idea of -- of freedom of speech versus the
notion of what are the limits for -- to make sure we have a harmonious
HAYES: Harry, I don`t.
SHEARER: Chris that -- this is.
HAYES: .. please respond.
SHEARER: . this suggests -- this suggests a race to the bottom in which
the countries with the most tendency to be offended and the least respect
for freedom of speech get to dictate the global standard. I think that`s
very dangerous territory.
HAYES: Yeah, well, elaborate on that.
SHEARER: Well, I don`t think that -- that leads to harmoniousness. I
think that leads to a situation in which the free are intimidated by the
HAYES: Well, there`s -- I mean, what do you think about that?
RAUF: I -- I -- I take issue with that. I mean, look -- I mean, we -- we
--freedom doesn`t mean you can front -- you can drive on a, you know, on
the wrong side of the road.
SHEARER: We`re talking about freedom of speech, not freedom of driving.
RAUF: Yes -- yeah, but I mean -- I mean, even freedom of speech, there`s
certain things which -- which -- which create disharmony inside. I believe
in freedom of speech. I mean, the prophet himself was lampooned and mocked
by his own contemporaries. He was even attacked by his own contemporaries.
But his own behavior was such that he prayed for those who lampooned him,
prayed for transition (ph) part and succeed in doing that and -- and my
message to the -- to my fellow Muslims is that`s the standard, that the
Quran, we have the prophet demands of us and we should behave in this way.
HAYES: But you would -- but you would like it to be the case. And I want
RAUF: I`m set without.
HAYES: . separate this from the active murder, right? Just -- because
that everyone is unanimous in condemning that and no one thinks that -- you
would like it to be the case that we have evolved conventions around
offensiveness that just made people view something like the Prophet
Muhammad the way they would have say using the end word.
RAUF: I mean -- I mean, look.
HAYES: It`s just a norm that you wouldn`t violate.
RAUF: Look because we want to make sure that, you know, people are safe,
our embassies are safe and then -- in certain countries. We don`t have --
I mean, what does freedom of speech.
HAYES: Wait but that makes it -- that makes it sound like it`s less
philosophical and more a fear of intimidation.
AIKINS: There`s plenty of people out there who are using the end word is
playing racist publication, the people, like Bill Donahue, who are
incredibly offensive in their own. They exist. It will become part of a
global, you know, object of panic and war because you don`t have these
kinds of violence around them, right?
So, obviously, that creates different kinds of conversations and one of
those causes pragmatism. Do you want.
AIKINS: . want to get involved in this kind.
HAYES: And that -- and then the fear, I think, Harry, is -- is the point
you made that you end up with the sort of race at the bottom or violence
sense of being kind of veto. Harry Shearer, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, and
Matthieu Aikins, thank you very much.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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