All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, January 9th, 2015
Read the transcript from the Friday show
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: January 9, 2015
Guest: Karima Bennoune, Amaney Jamal, Jonathan Laurence, Eli Lake, Jeremy
Scahill, Evan Kohlmann
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on "ALL IN". French police end two
separate hostage standoffs in a hail of bullets. Three gunmen are dead, as
are several hostages. Tonight, how it all went down. The hunt for the
suspect who appears to have escaped and what we now know about the possible
al-Qaeda ties of the Charlie Hebdo killers. "ALL IN" starts right now.
Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. A suspect is still on the
loose tonight after two separate hostage situations in France came to a
deadly and almost simultaneously end this afternoon. Dramatic images show
the moment the police stormed a kosher market in eastern Paris where a
suspect in the death of a policewoman yesterday killed four people and took
15 others hostage. His alleged accomplice and partner Hayet Boumddiene
seen here in 2010, is still on the loose tonight. And while that was
unfolding, the two brothers suspected of attacking the office of Charlie
Hebdo on Wednesday and killing 12 people were confronted by police 25 miles
northeast in Paris.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After the massacre and the manhunt, and siege about
five hours ago, the two suspects in that massacre, the Kouachi brothers
were chased to a small printing works in an industrial area just a few
hundred yards from here.
HAYES: Today`s events unfolded on televisions in France and across the
globe. This morning two brothers on the run since Wednesday massacre,
abandoned their getaway vehicle and hijacked another car. Said and Cherif
Kouachi flee to the town of Dammartin en-Goele exchanging fire with police.
They run into a building housing and printing facility armed. They take
one hostage. A convoy of policemen rush in, Special Forces and armored
vehicles surround the area. Military helicopters hover. The town goes
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are two schools in the area where more than a
thousand pupils are locked in. Some of the younger pupils, the teachers
are singing them nursery rhymes to try to calm them down.
HAYES: Residents are told to stay indoors, and away from windows. Heavily
armed officers guard the roads. Meanwhile, in Paris, news of another
hostage situation. At a kosher grocery store in the eastern part of the
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the last hour right here in Paris it`s been reported
that another gunman possibly the man who shot a policewoman dead yesterday
has taken more hostages.
HAYES: Police gather.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So the last few minutes, we`ve had emergency vehicles
rushing up and down this road to the scene of this latest hostage taking.
HAYES: Within the hour, French police released the name and a picture of a
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: French police have the name - the man they want to
speak to, Amedy Coulibaly, 32 years old. Want to speak in connection with
the shooting of the policewoman yesterday. That is the man, they believe,
has five or more hostages here.
HAYES: For the next several hours, the two hostage situations, miles
apart, play out in parallel. The French station, BFMTV reportedly speaks
with both Cherif Kouachi and Amedy Coulibaly. NBC News hasn`t been able to
independently confirm the authenticity of the audio. The BFM reporter
reaches Kouachi by phone and confirms he had been in Yemen.
CHERIF ROUACHI: (speaking French)
REPORTER: (speaking French)
CHERIF ROUACHI: (speaking French)
HAYES: Later, Coulibaly reportedly calls into the station and says he is
working in concert with the brothers.
REPORTER: (speaking French)
AMEDY COULIBALY: (speaking French)
REPORTER: (speaking French)
AMEDY COULIBALY: Non.
REPORTER: (speaking French)
AMEDY COULIBALY: (speaking French)
HAYES: In Dammartin, negotiations prove to be unsuccessful. Brothers tell
authorities they are ready to die as martyrs. The authorities move in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Smoke is rising from the industrial area. There is a
helicopter overhead now. It looks like the siege is coming to the
helicopter just going over my head now. It looks like this scene is just
coming to a rapid end.
HAYES: Said and Cherif Kouachi are both killed. Their hostage is freed.
Minutes later, security forces move in on the kosher grocery store where
several hostages are being held.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s been what I could see, a rush of officers, a
rush of individuals in armored gear going into this building and this is
the second location here now at ten minutes behind what we saw with the
flash grenades potentially at the other side.
HAYES: In total, 15 hostages are freed from the store.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And we saw the individuals who appear to be holding
their hands up being escorted by personnel, police officials -- police
HAYES: Several hostages are reported to be dead and police confirmed that
Amedy Coulibaly was killed in the raid.
Nearly three hours after the raids, French President Francois Hollande
addresses his nation calling for vigilance and unity in the face of
terrorism. "It is our best weapon," says Hollande. We can fight against
anything that could divide us.
HAYES: Joining me now from Dammartin, which is north of Paris, with the
latest is NBC News chief global correspondent, Bill Neely.
Bill, one suspect remains at large. Do we know anything about her
whereabouts and the status of that untied threat in this investigation?
BILL NEELY, NBC NEWS CHIEF GLOBAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that`s right, the
sieges are over, but the crisis is not. Those three gunmen are dead. But
their accomplice, a female terrorist is on the run. Hayet Boumeddiene, 26
years old, the police issued a photograph of her earlier today and said
that she is potentially armed and dangerous. And there is no question that
she was part of this cell. For example, the Paris prosecutor tonight, the
man who is in charge of all French antiterrorists operations gave a news
conference in which he said that more than 500 phone calls had been
intercepted between her and the Kouachi brothers or, indeed, one of their
So these two groups who were involved in the two sieges were clearly linked
and clearly one cell. And they have created mayhem across Paris in the
last 48 hours. 20 people are dead at the end of these 48 hours. 17
victims and the three gunmen, but as you say, this woman is still on the
loose. And Chris, just a few other details from the Paris prosecutor,
because he gave as you have just done a minute-by-minute blow, but blow by
blow, account of these two sieges. He said, in detail, gave details of the
arsenal of weapons that these men had. It wasn`t just the Kalashnikovs
that we saw them with in those first two videos. They had Kalashnikovs,
they had pistols, they had grenades, a lot of ammunition and a rocket-
He also said that the supermarket killer had actually cased the Jewish
kosher supermarket a week ago. That this had been planned, long-planned.
And we heard, also, from a man, one of the family, who runs that
supermarket. He said he saw this man in the supermarket a week ago and
thought how odd. He isn`t one of our usual customers. He looks completely
out of place. But the man left and he thought no more about it until the
events of today.
So, the French prosecutor, and the police and intelligence agencies still
trying to piece together the pieces of this jigsaw. And a lot of questions
remain unanswered. As I said, the sieges are over. The crisis isn`t.
There`s a woman on the loose. Are there more people, lone wolves, perhaps,
planning attacks? Are there sleeper cells that will be motivated by these
events? And decide that this is the time to strike? So, the crisis far
from over and the French president Francois Hollande insisting that France
remains on high alert.
HAYES: Bill Neely, NBC News, chief global correspondent has just been
doing phenomenal work all day. Thank you, Bill, I really appreciate it.
NEELY: All right. A reported member of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula,
AQAP, the al-Qaeda affiliate in Yemen, now claims the group was responsible
for the Charlie Hebdo attack. And earlier today, a source from within al
Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, told the Intercept that France comes third
on the target list in the nations that they are looking at. Joining me
now, investigator reporter of the Intercept Jeremy Scahill who got that
link. Tel me about this. I don`t think I`ve ever -- it`s been a while
since I`ve seen a headline that says al-Qaeda source says X. You`ve
communicated with an al-Qaeda source?
JEREMY SCAHILL, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE INTERCEPT: Right. I mean and
this is - this didn`t just happen out of the blue. This is a source that
I`ve been in contact for a sustain period of time, who has given me
reliable information in the past. And whose identity I validated through
people that I very much trust on the ground inside of Yemen. And I want to
just make one thing clear at the outset. An official claim of
responsibility from AQAP as an institution has not yet happened. One of
the most senior clerics within AQAP released an audio recording today where
he praised the attacks and defended the attacks, but he stopped short of
taking responsibility. Typically, when AQAP is involved with the an
attempted attack or an attack of this nature, like the attempted Christmas
Day bomb plot in 2009 involving Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, they then later
will release images showing him in Yemen, video and proofs that ...
HAYES: A kind of prove - a kind of evidence like he was here, we trained
him, we - we have the goods.
SCAHILL: Right. So, what I`m reporting is that a source within al-Qaeda
in the Arabian Peninsula is saying that yes, this was our operation. We
directed this. We did it to defend the reputation and the honor of the
Prophet Muhammad and that the attacks are going to continue in France and
HAYES: There`s a really chilling line in there about - in sources that
they have the right to print their cartoons. We have the right -- they
have the right to print their magazines, we have the right to unload the
bullets from our magazines.
SCAHILL: Right. And the context of this is that back in June of 2010,
when al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula first published their English-
language magazine "Inspire", which is like a glossy, highly produced, you
know, magazine. One of the main focuses of that issue was talking about
targeting cartoonists who had depicted the Prophet Muhammad in the
demeaning way. And actually names specific individuals including the young
woman Molly Norris from Seattle Washington who had to then go underground
and change her name. And my understanding is that she still remains
underground for fear that she might be killed.
HAYES: In fact, the recent "Inspire" illustration, which has been floating
around, which means - (INAUDIBLE) who was murdered as part of this
operation, also has Molly North still on that list.
SCAHILL: Right. And so this - the most recent issue of "Inspired" was put
online in December. And it reupped this threat that we`re going to go
after people who draw these kinds of cartoons. Now, you know, there`s
competing claims going on here, too. The Islamic State, I think, would
very much also like to get their - to the ring. This can be used to raise
funds for either of those groups.
You know, there is increasing evidence, though, that at least one of these
brothers was, in fact, in Yemen. And there are allegations that he met
with Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born cleric who was killed in a drone
strike in September of 2011, which would have been, you know, soon after he
allegedly met with one of these individuals who suspected of being a
shooter in this crime.
HAYES: And, in fact, the brother that called the French broadcaster today,
that - that we had in that package at the top, he specifically name checks
Awlaki who was - at first a kind of propagandas for al-Qaeda in the Arabian
Peninsula. And then, according to U.S. counter terrorism officials, they
say he then became an operational figure.
SCAHILL: And in my reporting on the ground, including interviewing tribal
leaders in Shabwa, the province that we`re talking about is that AQAP would
take people that they wanted to commit these kinds of attacks in the last
to Awlaki to sort of help them come up with a rationalization of why they
should be doing this religiously. Or in the case of Umar Farouk
Abdulmutallab I believe he was mentally ill, and that they took him to
Awlaki and sort of said hey, can you help us get this kind of shape so we
can manipulate him and get him to do what we want him to do. There`s still
very much a question of what exactly Anwar al-Awlaki`s role was. He was
never charged with the crime, but U.S. killed him in drone strike, but he
clearly was calling specifically for the assassination of people that did
the kinds of work that the journalists at this publication in France were
HAYES: Let me also ask you, there`s been a lot of focus, obviously, on the
first attack on Charlie Hebdo and, the fact that these were, essentially,
there was a prize out on their head, so to speak. Have we seen AQAP
specifically target Jewish institutions before? Obviously, they`re waging
the war against the government in Yemen, suicide bombings here, but have
you seen that before?
SCAHILL: The only specific incident that I can recall is another failed
plot where AQAP was alleged to have tried to smuggle bombs masquerading as
printer cartridges that were addressed to Jewish community centers in the
United States and I believe in Chicago, in one case. And there, but the
address wasn`t current for the place and the plot was warded off. Now, I
don`t have any inside information on that plot. That`s the only time I can
recall specific details being contributed to an AQAP plot targeted in this
way at a Jewish entity.
HAYES: Jeremy Scahill with just a tremendous reporting for the Intercept.
Thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
All right, our NBC chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel will be here
with more on just who the four terror suspects in France are, how they knew
each other, whether they had any connection to larger cells and networks.
HAYES: More on today`s events in France. Plus, an update on some other
things going on. An incredibly busy news day, and there`s a lot including
news that New Jersey Governor Chris Christi was recently interrogated by
federal investigators for the bridge scandal and former Massachusetts
Governor Mitt Romney may run for president again, and a possible indictment
of General Petraeus. All of that is ahead. Stay with us.
HAYES: As we have been reporting, three suspects tied to the Charlie Hebdo
terror attack were killed in France today while a female suspect remains at
large. Investigators are now combing through evidence in an effort to
understand the relationships between them and the nature of their
relationship to existing terror cells and networks. Joining me now with
the latest NBC News chief foreign correspondent Richard Engel. Richard,
what do we know about these three individuals who died today? Their
connections to each other and their paths of radicalization, as it were.
RICHARD ENGEL, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, by this stage, we know quite a
bit. Particularly about the two brothers. Cherif and Said. They were
well-known, especially Cherif to French intelligence agents and to the U.S.
intelligence services for quite a long time. Actually, for about ten years
now. Cherif in 2005 was initially involved with a radical group, was
arrested in France. He was trying to go to Iraq to join up with the Abu
Musab al-Zarqawi group which, back then, was linked to al-Qaeda. It was
one of the most brutal groups in Iraq killing Shiites, attacking U.S.
troops, killing other Sunnis who opposed him.
He never made it to Iraq. He was arrested, spent time in prison. Spent
about a year and a half in prison. He was originally sentenced to three
years. But this was someone who had already been in and out of French
jails. The two brothers Said and Cherif, were immigrant sons, first
generation born in the (INAUDIBLE) Paris. Their parents both Algerians
died when they were young and they were raised in northern France in foster
care. Then after when they became adults, they moved to Paris and had odd
jobs. Their lawyer later said they were - would spend sometimes using
drugs, they were involved in petty crime until they found a cause in
Then, we don`t hear much about the two brothers until 2010 when they are
once again questioned and Cherif is held for several months in connection
with an attempt to spring another terrorists from prison. And that`s - and
then after that, after 2010, those two brothers` files go quite dark and
French surveillance on them, which was supposed to be in place, eventually
tapers off. It`s expensive. It`s time consuming. They haven`t done
anything for a long time and there were other priorities, especially as the
- the problem with ISIS really came to the forefront and so many French
nationals and French residents started coming back.
When, exactly, the two brothers met with the other group Hayet and
Coulibaly (ph) is unclear, according to the Paris chief prosecutor. They
probably met in prison and they had some mentors in common. They had other
extremists in common, and that the spouses of Cherif and Hayet. So,
Cherif`s wife and Hayet were in quite frequent telephone contact, according
to the France chief prosecutor. There were 500 phone calls between the two
of them. And then, according to both of them, they launched this plot
HAYES: Richard Engel live in Paris tonight. Thank you, Richard. Really
All right, joining me now, MSNBC terrorist analyst Evan Kohlmann, author of
"Al Qaeda`s Jihad in Europe." And Evan, to pick up where Richard left off
with this, Amedi Coulibaly and Hayet Boumeddiene who, of course, remains at
large, something strange in the claims of credit by these two men who were
calling into the radiobroadcast.
The Kouachi brother who calls in says, references Awlaki. He says this is
- you know, we have al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. That he`s a member
of or affiliate of. While Coulibaly says he`s a member of the Islamic
State, there is now a Twitter war raging in Arabic between people claiming
credit on behalf of al-Qaeda and those not - crediting - Islamic State.
Two groups that are essentially waging war against each other.
EVAN KOHLMANN, TERRORISM ANALYST: Look, I think a lot of people that look
at Yemen, Iraq and Syria, and they say all of these guys are jihadists.
What`s the big deal? The reality is that these guys hate each other, the
person that was just - they put up this body recording on behalf of al
Qaeda in Yemen, not maybe - not claiming credit, but trumpeting this
attack. Or trumpeting this attack.
The person who recorded this audio recording just a few days ago was
savagely attacked by ISIS on Twitter. They said he makes excessive
statements that he`s spiteful, that he philosophizes, he got a big mouth.
So look, I mean there`s no love lost here. And then it`s very curious that
if this is so well-coordinated, why is it that they`re claiming on behalf
of two different groups? And it just doesn`t make a lot of sense. And if
you look at this, if you look at this holistically, what it looks like is
you have a network of people who are initially drawn together by at least
one major terrorist plot. Which tried to free Ali Belkacem, the mastermind
behind the 1995 Paris metro bombings.
HAYES: Who is in prison.
KOHLMANN: Who is --
HAYES: They were plotting, apparently, to break him out. One of the
Kouachi brothers and Amedi Coulibaly who were suspected to be part of that
KOHLMANN: Right. And they - this is part of a larger network of
individuals that also includes an individual, a French national who went to
Tunisia and who assassinated a senior Tunisian politician. Now, that guy,
right now, is in Syria supposedly with ISIS. Now, look, are they part of a
network? Well, broadly speaking, yes. But do you really think that this
person that ended up in Syria is well aware of everything that they`re
doing? No. And by the same corollary, it`s not clear that everyone in the
network in France knows exactly what they`re up to. It could have just
been that Coulibaly saw his friends, his associates on the news and said
now is the opportunity.
HAYES: Although it seems that the French prosecutor at least tonight
saying that they had - they have planned it and that he had - Coulibaly had
cased the kosher market a week earlier. We also learned from the French
prosecutor that - about some of the armaments that they had and the report
in the "Global Mail" today about cache of weapons, a grenade launcher. I
mean, that`s a fairly significant piece of equipment. We imagine there
might be some other people supporting this other than the four identified
KOHLMANN: Yeah, the closest allegory to this, the closest analogy to this
is back in `96. There was a group of guys called the (INAUDIBLE). They
were individuals who would receive training in Bosnia Herzegovina. They
came back and they brought an arsenal of weapons back with them. RPGs,
automatic weapons, they tried setting up a bomb at a police station.
HAYES: In France.
KOHLMANN: In France. And then they`ve got involved in a dramatic
shootout, two dramatic shootouts near the French-Belgian border. And once
again, these guys were extremely heavily armed. They`ve come to the
attention of French police because they couldn`t figure out why people
would be robbing supermarkets with automatic weapons and RPG. And the
reality is, unfortunately, if you have ties back to a conflict zone, in
Syria, in Yemen, in North Africa, it`s not that challenging to get your
hands on these weapons. They are illegal in the France, certainly.
But there is a black market for weapons across Europe and because of the
fact that the European Union, there are very few border checks, and I just
said earlier, I flew between Zurich and France and back. - to go to
airport. No one ever checked my I.D. Not once. Not in Zurich or in
Paris. And that kind of gives you an idea that the border controls around
these countries are fairly porous.
HAYES: Evan Kohlmann, thank you very much.
KOHLMANN: Thank you.
HAYES: All right, after the Charlie Hebdo attack, is it going to become
even harder to be Muslim in France, if you consider what`s happened since,
I think the answer leans towards "yes." We`ll talk about that next.
HAYES: The three suspects killed today Amedi Coulibaly and Brothers Said
and Cherif Kouachi were all Muslims of African descent. Kouachi is from
Algeria, Coulibaly reportedly from somewhere in West Africa. But all three
were born in France, they were French, in fact, we know about them so far,
it appears they were not always radical. France is home to more Muslims
than any other nation in Europe. And their place in French society has
been one of the number one controversies and conflicts, the source that
country`s politics since long before the events of the past week.
Joining me now is Karima Bennoune, author of "Your Fatwa Does Not Apply
Here". Whose university professor father was subject to death threats by
armed Islamic group after he taught about Darwin, and Amaney Jamal,
Professor of Politics of Princeton University was also director of the
workshop on Arab Political Development at the university.
Karima, I`m struck by a few things, one of course the Frenchmen of Arab
decent who is the policeman who is murdered by these individuals. There`s
been a kind of taking off of his cause as a representation of French
Muslims, of Frenchmen and women of Arabic decent. And also the fact that
this incredible story from "The Globe and Mail" in which the Tunisian
neighbors of the Kouachi brothers were so upset by their behavior, the
constant chanting of the Quran, their suspicious behavior.
They actually broke into the apartment of these two brothers to find the
huge weapons cache, only to have one of the brothers return and threatened
their lives if they went to the police and then not going to police. But
it just shows in some ways how distant and alienated these two individuals
were from even the community they live in.
KARIMA BENNOUNE, AUTHOR, "YOUR FATWA DOES NOT APPLY HERE": Absolutely.
And you can also think of Mustapha Ourrad, the copy editor of Algerian
descent who died at Charlie Hebdo. We have to remember that the lines here
are very complicated. Identity here is very complicated.
There are many people of Muslim heritage who are in the front lines of
opposing Islamism and terrorism and that is so critical to remember here.
I`ve been talking all day to Algerian activists in Paris who are so
outraged by these terror attacks and at the same time worried about the
possibility of rising racism that they will face. But many of the French
people of Muslim heritage are from Algeria, and many of them were refugees
from the 1990s violence in which nearly 200,000 people were killed by
And they feel like they`ve been warning about this issue for many years. I
talked to a woman yesterday who was a T.V. producer who had to flee Algeria
because somebody that she worked with was killed, was shot and is actually
a paraplegic today. And she told me, I feel like that terrorism has
followed me here.
HAYES: Amaney, can you talk to me a little bit about what this will mean
for French Muslims in a political context. There`s a lot of fear of
reprisals, we`ve seen some reports of graffiti on mosques. Some scattered,
what appear to be hate crime attacks on them. What is your sense of what
this will mean in the coming days and weeks for French Muslims?
AMANEY JAMAL, POLITICS PROF., PRINCETON UNIVERSITY: Yeah, I think
unfortunately in the coming days and weeks, the French Muslim community is
going to be the target of an increasing level of backlash unfortunately. I
think the sentiment is -- in France that you have this Muslim underclass
that is not assimilated, not integrated and the only thing they perceive
coming out of that community unfortunately is this violence and terrorism.
If we put this in context, the idea that the Muslim community in France
constitutes a significant threat is one that has grown in recent years.
The far-right has mobilized quite effectively on this platform that the
Muslim community in France is one that shouldn`t be pressed and one that
doesn`t belong, one that is not really French.
So, in many ways unfortunately what we`ve seen this week sort of reinforces
that those Islamaphobic perspectives in France. So, unfortunately the
Muslim community is going to be on the receiving end of a lot of backlash.
And what one can hope for is that the French, you know, political elite,
the French people can come together along with the French Muslim community
and basically unite in this fight against terrorism.
HAYES: Yeah, and that was one of the notes that Francois Hollande struck
today, very pointedly positioning himself against racism and against anti-
Semitism. And Karima, Amaney`s point there, I mean, I was reading quite a
bit about actually the kind of religiosity of France`s Muslim which is
actually quite low. As a general matter, the Muslim population, and I say
Muslim here as a kind of term for people`s traditions as oppose to their
practice necessarily, that the Muslim population is actually quite secular
by in large much like Christians in France.
BENNOUNE: Yes, indeed. That`s why I used the term people of Muslim
heritage because I don`t want to presume what someone`s beliefs may in fact
be. These 5 million people are all across the spectrum. Some are very
devout believers. Some may be believers but non-practicing, free thinkers.
Some maybe Atheist, some maybe agnostics but the heritage is still very
important to them.
So I had to -- we have to be very careful of generalizing and assuming what
people`s beliefs may be. But I think the critical thing to understand is
that people face a dual challenge right now. I interviewed a woman,
Maimoona Hajjam (ph) who runs a community center in a very poor
neighborhood of North African and other African immigrants who live there
in Paris. And she said, look, I feel trapped. I am stuck between on the
one hand, Islamism and terrorism, and on the other hand, the French far-
And the challenge really is to be able to fight on both of these friends at
the same time. And I think there is a lot of -- it`s interesting I was
reading the Algerian press today as well and there`s a lot of self-critical
debate going on, Adlen Meddi (ph) an Algerian Journalist wrote today, you
know, before we ask others to respect our religion which yes of course we
must do. But before we do that, we must also look at our own failings so
that we can break the cycle of hate. And I`ve heard a lot of things like
HAYES: Amaney, you talked about -- you used the word underclass and I
think it`s important in sort of the French context here and actually in
large parts of Europe as they have seen increasing levels of immigration.
This kind of class dynamic that has played out, there`s a lot of racial
prejudice. It`s combined with the sort of assertion of enlightenment and
values and sectorialism. But by in large, people of Muslim descent in
France have lowered income, lower levels of educational attainment, higher
levels of incarceration and are poor, right?
JAMAL: That`s correct Chris. I mean what you have in France and in Europe
more broadly is, that if you look at the Muslim population, most specially
the Muslim immigrant population that has been immigrating to Europe. The
purpose of the increasing levels of immigration for Europe is basically to
have more labor, unskilled labor in these countries. So, it`s almost a
deliberate immigration policy to allow unskilled workers to come into
As a result, what you`ve seen in Europe unlike the United States is that
the Muslim population in Europe is pretty much the underclass is more
generalized (ph), more marginalized socioeconomically. Then you add the
cultural difference, the cultural distinction and the label of Islam if you
may and that creates the sort of like double whammy...
JAMAL: ... in terms of the other being in the midst. So, that`s probably
one of the biggest distinguishing points between the American Muslim
community if you may and the European Muslim community. The U.S. Muslim
community is far better educated -- far better educated and much more
integrated in U.S. political in social life.
HAYES: Karima Bennoune and Amaney Jamal, thank you both. There`s been a
uptick in anti-Semitic violence in Europe in recent years and tonight the
iconic grant synagogue of Paris did not hold Shabbat services for the first
time since World War II when the Nazi`s occupied France. It`s French jury
under siege, that`s next.
HAYES: French President Francois Hollande wasted no time in denouncing
today`s attack at a grocery store in Paris, where four hostages were killed
as an anti-Semitic attack, saying, "Today in this kosher shop, an atrocious
anti-Semitic act was committed." Now, tonight, Paris`s Grand Synagogue did
not hold Shabbat services for the first time since World War II when the
Nazis occupied France.
This comes after a long year for French Jews, who have warned of an
increasingly hostile atmosphere in France.
Joining me now, Jonathan Laurence, Non-resident Senior Fellow in Foreign
Policy Studies at the Brooking Institution and author of, "The Emancipation
of Europe`s Muslims". Jonathan, I know you`ve studied and written about
the Jewish community in France, which of course is the largest in all of
Europe and it has to be a very, very dark and painful night for French
JONATHAN LAURENCE, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: I think that`s absolutely right,
and unfortunately it is not the first this year, and it`s been several
tragedies in a row starting 2012`s murder in Toulouse, 2014 in the month of
May in Brussels, and of course, this week. All three acts committed by
Frenchmen targeting Jews explicitly. It`s a very depressing day for French
HAYES: What is the reaction been among French Jewry, obviously the
synagogue in Paris not doing Shabbat services tonight for the first time
since World War II. A lot of fears about the safety of French Jews, talk
of moving to Israel, what did you heard in the wake of this?
LAURENCE: Well, already, 2014 was a record year for French Jewish
emigration to Israel. Approximately 7,000 French Jews made Aliyah to
Israel this year. That is about twice the number in the previous year and
the number that haven`t been reached for about a decade. So clearly there
is some pessimism about the direction that France is going.
I don`t think anybody doubts the government`s resolve to try and protect
them. I think that when you have one incident after another, and again
with the body count of four more dead French Jews today, it just becomes
almost too depressing to go on. On the other hand, France is the country
that emancipated Jews formerly. As soon as the revolution was done in the
18th century, and it`s the country...
... great opportunities for Jews over the years. They`ve had Jewish-French
prime ministers, artists, writers, there`s no reason to allow these
terrorists to end that, rather grand tradition. And -- while it`s
understandable that some may seek to move to Israel for security sake
hopefully they will not be ethnically cleansed from France just because of
HAYES: Are there any formal means by which the fairly robust Jewish
community in France and the much larger Muslim minority of France who at
different times have both been the targets of majoritarian prejudice of the
right. Are there any means by which those two groups interface in any
formal way or are they fairly alienated as a sort of factual political
LAURENCE: Well, like elsewhere, the Israeli-Arab conflict has taken its
toll on Muslim-Jewish relations in France. However, there is a long
tradition of inter religious dialogue, and that`s something that the French
government has encouraged formally for the last 12 years or so by getting
Muslim leaders from the French council for the Muslim faith together with
French-Jewish leaders from the representative council for Jewish
institutions in France.
And essentially forcing them to sit around a table and recognize their
common interest. And when it comes to questions like, Halal food or
culture slaughter, they do have a lot in common. When it comes to the
expression of religious symbols in the public sphere they also share many
And when the French were debating the legislation that eventually banned
head scarfs for girls in K to 12, Jewish leaders were at the forefront
testifying on behalf of French Muslims in order to allow them to keep their
head scarfs. So, there are commonalities and although these are extremely
trying times it`s worth noting that among the first people to pay their
condolences at the offices of Charlie Hebdo where French Muslim leaders and
that kind of solidarity I think will continue even as French Muslim leaders
are painted into a corner.
HAYES: Jonathan Lawrence, thank you very much. I really appreciate it.
There are some other news to tell you about tonight including some we just
learned before going on the air. The prosecutors are recommending felony
charges against former CIA Director David Petraeus. I`ll tell you what
those charges could be, ahead.
HAYES: Today, we learned that Governor Chris Christie of New Jersey has
been interrogated by federal investigators over the bridge scandal that
engulfed his administration shortly after his reelection.
According to ABC News, "Christie met with federal prosecutors and FBI
agents last month during a secret session at the New Jersey governor`s
mansion in Princeton. He agreed to sit down with investigators voluntarily
after they offered him a chance to provide his side of the story.
Interviewing Christie was one of the final steps in the investigation,
which appears to be wrapping up, according to those briefed on it."
And Christie`s spokesperson has confirmed NBC News, a statement from his
office saying Christie had always maintained to be fully cooperative in
investigation. Meanwhile, Governor Christie is planning to attend yet
another Dallas Cowboys game. According to his spokesman, the Governor will
be paying for travel and tickets for himself, his sweater and his son to
make sure we keep silliness out of the football season.
This follows ethical question raised after Cowboys owner Jerry Jones paid
for Christie`s trip to last week`s Cowboys-Lions game in Dallas.
And also, in the category of possible 2016 presidential contenders, former
Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney is considering a third attempt. Romney
conveyed this to the small group of donors today in New York City according
to a source in the room who spoke with MSNBC`s Kasie Hunt.
Also today, and this might be -- the Justice Department and the FBI held a
press conference regarding an improvised explosive device that was
detonated outside a building that houses the NAACP offices in Colorado
Springs earlier this week.
They released this sketch of a person of interest they`re looking for in
the incident, a balding white male, approximately 40-years-old driving a
white pick up track with an open and missing tailgate and missing or
covered license plate. The FBI and ATF are jointly sponsoring $10,000
reward for information leading to his arrest.
And on that story, a correction, last night on this program, a montage of
images from the aftermath of the apparent attempted bombing outside the
building that houses the NAACP in Colorado Springs all inadvertently showed
this image briefly from another story we`ve been covering.
That image is a broken glass of the kebab shop in Paris which is vandalized
after the terror attacks there this week. Showing that image was obviously
a mistake, that`s our bad and we regret the error.
As for this day, breaking news just keeps continuing with reporting tonight
that prosecutors are recommending felony charges against former CIA
director David Petraeus. More on that story next.
HAYES: We are following breaking news here tonight. General David
Petraeus who resigned as the head of the CIA in 2012 after having an affair
with his biographer, and that become public, could now face possible
The New York Times broke the story this afternoon, "The FBI and Justice
Department prosecutors have recommended bringing felony charges against
retired General David H. Petraeus for providing classified information to
his former mistress while he was Director of the CIA."
A decision about whether to actually bring felony charges against General
Petraeus lies with Attorney General Eric Holder. He is expected to make a
decision by the end of last year according to New York Times but has not
yet indicated what he will do. The recommendation of charges came after a
Justice Department investigation into whether General David Petraeus gave
his former mistress Paula Broadwell access to his C.I.A. e-mail account and
other highly classified information.
FBI agents discovered a classified documents on her computer. Joining me
now Bloomberg View Columnist, Eli Lake. Eli, may jaw hit the floor when I
saw this report today.
ELI LAKE, COLUMNIST, BLOOMBERG VIEW: Well, it is kind of extraordinary if
this is all there is to it that the Justice Department and the FBI would go
to these lengths to protect a sensibly state secrets when in the past, as I
said if this is all there is, Sandy Berger and John Deutsch, a former CIA
Director, you know, were basically slapped on the wrist for equivalent, I
guess, crimes against the -- in terms of classified information.
HAYES: We also have a situation in which officials of different political
parties over the past two years had given journalist classified information
routinely almost as a matter -- a matter of course. I`ve seen things in
your reporting, I`m sure was probably classified. I know I read things in
the paper all the time that probably was. So this would be -- it would be
striking if you were prosecuted for this given that context.
LAKE: I agree with you but, you know, David Petraeus has been on the
record before saying that, you know, the CIA officer who is serving time
right now for revealing secrets about the CIA`s detention and rendition
program, you know, violated his oath. And, I mean in my view as a
journalist its gotten way out of hand. There are far too many secrets the
government protects. And it spends way too many resources going after
leakers. I`d like the leakers to be left alone as journalist, you know?
HAYES: Well this is -- you raised a really important point about
consistency here. Of course Kiriakou is the man who is doing prison time
for essentially whistle blowing about detention programs and leaking
classified documents. Petraeus has said that was -- it was proper that he
It does seem from an evidentiary standpoint if in fact this report bears
out that there is something of a smoking gun if in fact the FBI finds
classified documents on Paula Broadwell`s computer. From a legal -- from a
strictly legal standpoint that would probably be fairly open and shut.
It`s a question of prosecutorial discretion at that point.
LAKE: It`s nuts as I`ve said, if all of this -- Paula Broadwell has a
security clearance, she was already -- I kind of briefed in when, you know,
she tailed him, when he was commanding the war in Afghanistan and wrote her
first book. I mean this is not somebody -- this is not the equivalent of
the kind of mega leaks that you saw, you know, with now Chelsea Manning or
Edward Snowden or for that matter the information that was, you know,
that`s been made vulnerable by some of the mega hacks that have also
happened such as the one in Semicon Computers -- in 2007, in 2008.
And in that respect it doesn`t -- unless there`s another part, a thing that
we don`t know and we have to, you know, I supposed if they are going to
charge him will read the case of the government. But, if this is all there
is it seems like, you know, in this environment it`s crazy that this would
a felony prosecution of a guy like General Petraeus.
HAYES: Well I guess the question also here is whether you read the tea
leaves of this being leaked? I mean it seems that this is some ways trying
to pin Holder into a corner by can kind of try to do a metaanalysis of
this, that this is in fact being leaked to a reporter.
LAKE: Well, I was -- I mean I have to say congratulations to the Times for
a great script. I wish I had it. I had written about this last month.
It`s been out there. Some members of Congress, you know, have asked why
the FBI has been taking so long in its investigation. And again, we don`t
know exactly what the government`s case is. But if all it is, is that, you
know, somebody who already had some security clearance wasn`t cleared to
see the level of stuff that she getting from these e-mails and so forth
then OK, I understand that that`s bad. But I mean give me a break.
HAYES: Eli, I like you`re take on this news. Thank you very much. That
LAKE: Thank you.
HAYES: ... for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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