The Ed Show for Friday, March 27th, 2015
Read the transcript to the Friday show
Show: THE ED SHOW
Date: March 27, 2015
Guest: Tobias Wolff, John Fugelsang, Terence Moore, Jon Ralston, Joe
Cirincione, Caroline Heldman
ED SCHULTZ, HOST: Good evening Americans and welcome to the Ed Show live
from Detroit Lakes, Minnesota. Let`s get to work.
Tonight, discrimination "in religious freedom".
GOV. MIKE PENCE, (R) INDIANA: And if I thought it was about
discrimination, I would have vetoed it.
SCHULTZ: Later, Candidate Cruz and his appetite for destruction.
SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: We will defend the United States of America.
SCHULTZ: Plus, Harry Reid calls to quit.
SEN. HARRY REID, (D) NEVADA: Don`t be too elated (ph). I`m going to be
here for 22 months...
SCHULTZ: And a twin experiment that`s out of this world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In my environments (ph), you know, pretty severe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight, folks. Thanks for watching.
We start with discrimination in the state of Indiana.
I thought America has gone far beyond all of this kind of stuff. I guess
On Thursday, Republican Governor Mike Pence signed a so called Religious
Freedom bill into law. The bill was signed in a private ceremony, why
private for that matter? Private ceremony in Pence`s office, no members of
the public or press were allowed to attend.
Here it is. "Senate Bill 101 prohibits a state or local governments from
substantially burdening a person`s ability to exercise their religion
unless the government can show that it`s a compelling interest and that the
action is the least restrictive means of achieving it."
It sounds like a lot of gobbledygook when you break it down. It`s a whole
bunch of discrimination. The push back of this law has been severe early
Opponents say it provides the opportunity to discriminate against gay and
lesbian Americans. The law could also provide the opportunity to
discriminate against any faith.
On Thursday, Pence came out and defended the law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: This bill is not about discrimination. And if I thought it was
about discrimination, I would have vetoed it. In fact, it doesn`t even
apply to disputes between private individuals unless government action is
involved. I think there has been a lot of misunderstanding about this
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: So yeah, there is a lot of explaining that has to be done.
During a radio interview, Pence was asked if there were any specific
incidents that would justify the law.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: I`m not aware of cases and controversies. I mean, as I travel
around the state, one thing I know for sure -- Hoosier hospitality is the
greatest in the nation. Hoosiers are loving, sharing, generous to a fault,
people that have strong hearts, strong values and -- but this isn`t about
any present controversy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: The Governor said he wants Indiana to have the same protections
as other states.
Pence is rumored to be interested in running for president in 2016. A lot
of people are thinking that well, this law is going to boost his street
cred with the conservatives across America just to head of the primaries.
But regardless of his motivations, people are outraged. For instance,
Colts punter Pat McAfee, also Montel Williams, George Takei, also Miley
Cyrus, they all oppose the law and are speaking out. Cyrus took to
Instagram and called Pence an "a-hole".
Now, there could be some serious economic consequences for the state of
Indiana as well. Salesforce CEO Marc Benioff canceled all company events
in the state of Indiana. Is that a misunderstanding? The Christian group,
Disciples of Christ has threatened to boycott Indiana over the law.
Organizers of Gen Con have threatened to move their convention out of the
Hoosier state. Gen Con if you didn`t know was one of the largest gaming
conventions of the country and last year, 56,000 people attended. They
pumped roughly $50 million dollars into the Indianapolis, Indiana economy.
How about the NCAA? They are concerned, expressing concern over the law.
Next week`s Final Four will take place at the Lucas Oil Stadium at
Indianapolis. And of course NCAA President Mark Emmert released a
statement saying this, "We are especially concerned about how this
legislation can affect our student athletes and employees. Moving forward,
we intent to closely examine the implications of this bill and how it might
affect future events as well as our workforce."
We`re not done, folks, here comes the National Football League. They are
responding to the law. After saying that they had no comment, a league
spokesman has step out and said, "We are in the process of studying the law
and its implications." The NFL Scouting Combine has been held in
Indianapolis since 1987.
Pence is aware of the economic consequences of the law. The Governor said
that he would reach out to business leaders and explain what he calls the
misunderstandings about the law.
Now, these groups are the groups that Governor must reach out to,
Salesforce, Gen Con, Disciples of Christ, the NCAA and the NFL.
Mike Pence is an interesting guy. He is a staunch conservative. He spent
some time in Congress obviously. Then he was a right-wing talk show host.
I don`t know if he did any sports radio or not but somebody ought to tell
him that the NCAA Final Four and the NFL is big business. And when you
have major conventions, we were talking about leaving your state. You
should take notice.
Why does he have so many groups to explain things to if the law is so
correct? One thing that I think we have found out with this law, the bible
bill in this country starts in Indiana and goes west.
Get your cell phones out, I want to know what you think.
Tonight`s question, "Has Mike Pence legalize discrimination in Indiana?
Text A for Yes, text B for No to 67622, you can leave -- we`ll bring you
the results later on in the show.
For more, let me bring in John Fugelsang, Host of Tell Me Everything on
SiriusXM Radio, Terence Moore with us tonight, National Sports Columnist
and also with us Tobias Wolff who was a Professor of the University of
Pennsylvania Law School, great to have you, gentlemen, with us tonight.
Professor, you first. What are the dangers of this law as you understand
it? Does this really open the door for discrimination? For instance, if I
owned a business and decided not to hire, you know, black people or Jewish
people or people of a certain faith, how do you interpret this law and how
dangerous do you think it is?
TOBIAS WOLFF, UPENN LAW SCHOOL: Well, Governor Pence has gotten himself
into a lot of trouble with this statute. And I think anybody who follows
the proliferation of these laws around the country is going to understand
that the impedes for these laws is precisely that gay, lesbian, bisexual
and transgender people are starting to participate equally in the economy.
They`re starting to participate equally in the workforce and there are some
people who would like to have a special privilege to fire them or to deny
them service from a business.
And the question of whether this law can be used to license discrimination,
is a very serious, very important question. And frankly, in a whole bunch
of ways, this law has been drafted specifically to get rid off some of the
limitations that existed in the laws of others states. The courts have
relied upon to say that discrimination is not licensed by these laws.
Indiana appears to have drafted its law for the express purpose of
eliminating those limitations. So I don`t know exactly what part of the
law Governor Pence is pointing to when he says it doesn`t license
discrimination but this is a law that looks like it was drafted for
precisely that purpose.
SCHULTZ: OK. John Fugelsang, in Senate Bill 101 -- and let me just read
the first sentence of this, "It prohibits, meaning it doesn`t want states -
- to states or local governments from substantially burdening a person`s
ability to exercise their religion."
That means if someone thinks that gay Americans are living a lifestyle as
they would say and I certainly wouldn`t term it as that but that`s how the
religious people come up with. That they say it`s a lifestyle and they
don`t approve it and I`m a business owner then I would be able to get rid
of these folks.
In the employment arena, isn`t that discrimination everywhere else of the
country but Indiana?
JOHN FUGELSANG, SIRIUSXM RADIO HOST: Exactly, Ed. You know, being gay is
natural, hating gay is a lifestyle choice. And Mike Pence should be very,
very grateful. There is not a law that prohibits businesses from serving a
fake Christian begets because whether or not its discrimination, it`s up
for debate maybe, it certainly seems that way.
What is not for (ph) discussion is, that it is not Christian. There is
nothing in the gospels where Jesus ever condemns gay people are, really,
you can`t use anything in the entire new testament including those three
letters of Paul (ph) to deny service to gay people as well.
If you`re a Christian, it`s not your job to judge the gay people. It`s
your job to love gay people. And a lot of businesses are going to be
staying away from Indiana after this. I kind of want to go to Indiana just
to saw a rainbow flags to all the non-bigoted businesses so they`ll know
where to go shop.
SCHULTZ: Terence, NCAA, NFL, big business, the last thing Pence wants us
any problems. You know, how influential do you think they can be in the
state in this situation?
TERENCE MOORE, SPORTS ON EARTH: Oh huge, and that`s why those guys is
going to back down.
First of all, the NCAA and dead serious and we know that because back in
2001, they told South Carolina, the state, and until they took the
confederate flag from a top of the state capital that they would never ever
get any NCAA type big event. And 15 years later, they haven`t been done.
They`re missing the NFL. The NFL back 20-something years ago, kept the
Super Bowl out of Arizona because they refuse to pass to Dr. Martin Luther
King Jr. Holiday and then they almost lost to the other Super Bowl because
of the immigration thing.
And there`s the other thing, Ed. I was born and raised in South Bend,
Indiana and that`s where the majority of relatives live, my parents live
Indianapolis and I can tell you something here, the only thing that people
as a whole in Indiana love more than right-wing conservative politics is
basketball and game stuff, OK?
I`m talking about -- conventions. I`m talking about stuff from the NCAA
and those type of things. And one of the biggest critics of this is right
there in Indianapolis, the Mayor of Indianapolis Greg Ballard who is a
Republican. He is screaming like crazy. He is going to end up -- Mike
Pence is going to end up backing down.
SCHULTZ: OK. Well, you know, Terence, the culture of NFL is, they have
the best attorneys around. And when they say that they`re studying the
law, I take that as they already know the law but they`re running up the
flagpoles so everybody knows that they`re not going to approved this down
the road. So they`re not going to get too heavy-handed because they don`t
want that bad P.R. being heavy-handed but they know what the law is when
they say they`re studying it.
How do you view that there first when they come out and make a statement
MOORE: That`s serious. Again, we`ve just seen the (President) for that.
And the other thing, Ed, the news reported out (ph), just kind of quick
putting this as perspective.
Indiana back in the 1920s got a reputation are rightfully so for being the
most northern, southern state in the union because to date the largest clan
rally in the world to place in Kokomo which is about 60 miles north of
And it took until about the 1970s to kind of erase that damage with a mayor
named William Hudnut who is a visionary.
He is the one that built the stadium in Indianapolis before Indianapolis
had a football team. He was later became the coach. He is a guy that put
the mall downtown connecting the downtown shops turned it, Ed, into this
great airport and that`s type of thing.
There is no one in the world as a wholly gain of the state that people are
going to allow this one governor to take the Indiana from the 21st century
back to the 18th century.
SCHULTZ: Yeah. I want to play this clip. This is Governor Mike Pence
justifying this law. Here it is.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PENCE: People don`t know this was been federal law since 1993. People
don`t know that this is already the law in 30 states. And people think
this is somehow limits individual`s freedom, it limits the freedom of a
government to intrude upon peoples deeply held religious beliefs that was
this does. That`s why Teddy Kennedy supported it, that`s why President
Clinton signed it, that`s why then State Senator Barack Obama voted for it
in the State Senate in Illinois.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Professor Wolff, your reaction to that.
WOLFF: Well, to start as Governor Pence just has his facts wrong (ph).
This is a very different statute from the ones that we`ve seen in other
But you know, if Governor Pence really believes what he says that he
doesn`t want license discrimination, that he would never sign this law if
he thought that it was going to result in discrimination. There`s a very
simple solution to this whole problem that I think will be very attractive
to business community and here it is.
Indiana does not currently have statewide discrimination protections for
gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. There are cities that have
some good ordinances, Indiana doesn`t have it statewide.
If Governor Pence will take the leadership role in seeking to enact
statewide discrimination protections for LGBT people and make a clear in
that statute that nothing in this recently passed REFRA (ph), licenses
people to discriminate, that solves the problem.
And if he would take the lead in doing that and make it a priority of his
caucus in the state legislature, I think the business community will
respond very positively. If he really believes what he`s saying then what
he`s going to do.
SCHULTZ: John Fugelsang, considering the definition and the description
that we got from Terence Moore on exactly what Indiana is all about, how is
Pence going to retreat from this?
FUGELSANG: He`s not. I mean, he signed it behind closed doors, so it`s
not something he`s obviously proud off to begin with. I think it was a
calculated risky took that`s going to blow up in his face and I think he`s
already realizing that from the reaction of the business community.
But again, I`m waiting for the media to jump on about how this is
unchristian. You know, it`s time to thump with the Bible thumpers with the
If you want to have a government based on Christian values that means, you
take care of the poor, you take care of the sick, you don`t start fight
with people, you`re kind to those in jail, and you let private charities
have a big sale to bailout Wall Street.
I`d love that kind of (inaudible) with local based governments. This has
got nothing to do with Christianity and I`m waiting for people to wake up
and realize Christianity is not cover for bigotry.
SCHULTZ: John Fugelsang, Terence Moore and Tobias Wolff, professor at
University of Pennsylvania also, great to have all of you with us tonight.
Thanks so much.
MOORE: Thank you.
SCHULTZ: Remember to answer tonight`s question there at the bottom of the
screen. Share your thoughts with us on Twitter @edshow, like us on
Facebook and thanks for that. You can get my video podcast on my website
Coming up, Republicans celebrate as Harry Reid announces his retirement.
We look at the cast and characters waiting to the wings to take his seat.
Plus, imagine the war plans of President Ted Cruz. We have new insight
into his foreign policy platform.
Stay with us. We`ll be right back.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show.
Minority leader Harry Reid says he will not seek reelection. It should
come as no surprise. He is 75 years old.
The Nevada Senator announced his decision today in a YouTube video. He`s
endorsing Senator Chuck Schumer. He is endorsing Schumer from New York to
take his leadership spot.
Schumer is currently third in command behind Senator Dick Durbin of
Illinois. And of course, reinsist his decision as nothing to do with his
eye injury or the recent election back in November which of course makes
him Minority Leader today.
Harry Reid has served the Congress since 1982 and he was a master at
calling the Republicans exactly what they are.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REID: I don`t want to answer that question. That`s a clown question, bro.
Pigs are really slippery to begin with when you cover them with grease
they`re really slippery.
Senate Republicans, Madam President are addicted to Koch. Two very wealthy
brothers, who intend to buy their own Congress, may cover this little
animal with tons of grease. It`s a greasy little pig.
Brad Pitt came to see me a couple years ago. So when it came -- I`m --
it`s OK to stand for pictures. And I said, "How they going to tear (ph) us
When I ran in 2004, it was like I`ve taken a bath and I felt so clean and
then comes 2010, back into the sore.
Goes on about this business, Republicans are all out (ph) in fact have
billionaire friends and there`s no pain to pick working in my Senate
Republican colleagues reminds me of chasing one of this little pigs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Joining me tonight longtime journalist from Nevada, Jon Ralston
and host of the Ralston Live on PBS. Jon, always a pleasure -- good to
have you with us.
You know, I was in Nevada back in 2010 when it was Sharron Angle and Harry
Reid and it was a very close race. If Harry Reid were to do it again would
he be reelected? How does he stand with the folks in Nevada these days?
JON RALSTON, HOST, THE RALSTON LIVE: Well, he probably stands worse than
he did in 2010, Ed. His numbers here are not good he`d probably have half
or more of the people here who were dissatisfied with him but he`s a very
polarizing figure. And as you pointed out in your introduction, part of
this because some of the language that he uses. But I have to tell you, he
would have been a slight favorite for reelection, I don`t think he is not
running because he`s afraid of losing.
The Republicans, they had run Brian Sandoval against Harry Reid. They
would have been the favorites but any other candidates as Harry Reid so
bluntly said during a radio interview today, our second year candidate.
So I said I was 55-45, he would had gotten reelected. I don`t think
there`s such anything to do with why he`s not running again.
SCHULTZ: Are we going to see Sharron Angle again?
RALSTON: We can only pray, Ed, as I do everyday that Sharron Angle appears
on the ballot again out of here.
SCHULTZ: What is this going to do the democrats in the state? I mean this
is something that they really have worried for a longtime. I mean, Harry
has been around for a longtime, done a lot of good things for the state of
Nevada especially Las Vegas. So where is the sleeve (ph) of the Democrats
in the state? Do they have someone that can win that seat?
RALSTON: Well, the answer to that question is yes. However, there was a
caveat. Former Attorney General Catherine Cortez Masto has long said that
she wants to run for the U.S. Senate. Harry Reid called her this morning,
he is already anointed her as his successor. She is not made a public
announcement yet but I`ve talked to her about it.
In the patch, she said she wants to run. She is now working in the higher
education system here but she`s only had that job for a few months. I
think she`ll be ready to start a campaign.
She`ll be a permissible (ph) candidate. She`s a Latina in a state with a
burgeoning Hispanic population where the Hispanic voter is very, very
important. She made a lot of headlines fighting sex trafficking here. I
think she`s the favorite to win the race if she run`s based on the Reid
machine (ph) helping her and based on that being a presidential year.
But if she does not run, Ed, there is a huge drop off for the Democrats.
Their bench was decimated by what happened in 2014 here. The Republicans
took over all state white offices, there are couple congressmen who fear
radically could run and it might be good candidates in that race. I don`t
think either will but there are lot of Republicans who want to run. And if
Catherine Cortez Masto bows out to this race, I think the Democrats have a
SCHULTZ: Will, the RNC released a statement today and they think of course
this is because things aren`t going well they say, "With the Democratic
Party in disarray, fund raising in trouble and a scandal plagued
frontrunner. It`s no surprise that Harry Reid step is going to step
You know, when you look Harry Reid now, he`s going to retire, Barbara Boxer
or Barbara Mikulski you know, Tom Harkin and there are others, I mean, the
Democrats are loosing some real veterans that know how to legislate and
maneuver around this obstruction.
What do you think Harry Reid`s departure? His leadership has been very
vital in recent years. I mean, you know, he over saw the passage of health
care. We know that had to go reconciliation that was a pretty bold move on
his part. He followed through legislatively for President Obama. Of
course, he also got the -- stimulus package through when we were really
hurt as far our as economy brought us to the worse recession ever.
I mean, there had been some things that Harry Reid is had his hands on and
now that leadership is gone. Well, how does it vote (ph) for the Democrats
nationally as you see it?
RALSTON: Well, it`s really question, Ed, because your description of Harry
Reid is exactly what he love about being a U.S. Senator and why so many
people including myself are a little bit surprise and he`s not running
He loved to legislate. He loved to be in the back room putting together
deals that and, of course, attacking Republicans and the Koch`s brothers
whenever he got the chance.
We don`t know how Chuck Schumer going to do in that position. We know
Chuck Schumer loves T.V cameras. We don`t know if he`s going to be as good
and Harry Reid at the needy-greedy of legislating.
But what I think, it`s ironic because you have a lot of the Senators now
who are leaving, and it actually because the Senate become a toxic place
since this functional. We`ve hear all of this.
I think Harry Reid love that part of it. He loved helping to make it this
functional. He tried back there. He didn`t care about criticism and so
you really need somebody like that with that kind of thick skin. I`m not
sure that Chuck Schumer or anybody else is that person.
SCHULTZ: All right. Jon Ralston, always good to have you with us here on
the Ed Show, I appreciate your time tonight. Thank you so much.
Coming up, Ted Cruz and his hawkish allies. Plus, when astronauts are
taking space exploration to new heights.
Keep it here. You`re watching the Ed show on MSNBC, we`ll be right back.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. Thanks for watching tonight.
NASA`s one year mission has begun.
Astronauts Scott Kelly and a Russian cosmonaut took off just two hours ago
from Kazakhstan. This is a one year mission on the International Space
Station. It`s Scott Kelly`s fourth space mission and the longest for any
Back on earth, Scott`s twin brother Mark is also playing an important role
in the one year mission.
The information collected from this research could have a major impact on
future`s space travel. Here`s more on their unique mission.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To boldly go where no man has gone before.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Astronaut Scott Kelly is getting ready for a first of
its kind mission for NASA.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Captain Scott Kelly is preparing to spend one year in
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kelly has launched into space three times before.
SCOTT KELLY, ASTRONAUT: I had a desire to fly in space again.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s twice the length of a typical stay for an
American on the International Space Station.
KELLY: The fact that I`ve flown a long duration flight before, gives me a
little bit of perspective on what it`s like.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If we ever want to send someone to Mars we must first
learn what it takes for someone to live in space for long period of time.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The goal of the one year mission is to study the
physical and mental effect of space missions on astronauts.
S. KELLY: We know what the effect is for six-month mission.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Volume (ph) loss, muscle lost, effects on our immune
But now we need to know what it is between six months and a year and what
those negative effects are and how to mitigate them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scott`s brother, Captain Mark Kelly is no stranger to
CAPT. MARK KELLEY, ASTRONAUT: I did four flights on space shuttle, so I
have 54 days in space.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But this time, Mark`s mission is back on earth.
M. KELLEY: Yeah. I asked the question when I was assigned for this one
year flight, whether any study like this would be done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was a unique opportunity to do class of studies
because we had one twin flying and one twin in the ground.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The twin study will help NASA gain further insights
into the effects of space light on humans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can study two individuals that have the same
genetics that are in different locations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They want to look at what the space environment has
done to my RNA, DNA, proteins...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With this study, we`re in a position to look at how
humans respond to these challenges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And put us in a better position to explore far beyond
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We understand our physiology better on Mars flight as
something definitely that we can accomplish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Coming up, the Rapid Response Panel and the Ted Cruz foreign
policy is next.
MARY THOMPSON: I`m Mary Thompson with your CNBC Market Wrap.
Stocks end slightly higher on Friday, the DOW up 34 points, the S&P up 4,
the NASDAQ gaining 27.
The latest read on the economic growth shows it remained steady at 2.2
percent in the fourth quarter. Some analysts were looking for a slight
increase to 2.4 percent.
There are maybe some deals in the works. The amazon.com is said to be in
talks to buy the Luxury online retailer Net-A-Porter and Intel shares jump
6 percent on report, and looking out a deal to buy Altera.
That`s it from CBNC, first in business worldwide.
SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. Thanks for watching tonight.
Former U.S. Ambassador John Bolton was dead wrong when it came to invading
At this point, the only person who takes Bolton`s opinion seriously, are
the head nodders over Fox News.
It makes Bolton the perfect fit. I mean the perfect fit for his new role,
informal foreign policy advisor for Ted Cruz.
The 2016 election, we`ll have to focus on foreign policy, no doubt. The
Middle East is in a free fall. The US is sending aide to deal with a new
chaos erupting in Yemen. The United States has taken the lead with air
strikes on ISIS targets around Iraq, conducting 17 air strikes on Thursday
with our allies around Tikrit.
Now, this weekend it is critical for the Iranian nuclear talk so that the
deadline could be pushed back another two weeks.
Ted Cruz doesn`t have a whole lot of foreign policy resume to talk about,
to tackle the complex issues, the Middle East faces. And of course John
Bolton simplified it for him, publishing an op-ed in the New York Times
titled "To Stop Iran`s Bomb, Bomb Iran." It`s a red meat for the GOP hawks
so Bolton suggests throwing diplomacy out of the window, bombing Iran,
leading a regime change, America wins.
Bolton sounded like a broken record defending the controversy of column on
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENNA LEE, JOURNALIST AND ANCHOR ON THE FOX NEWS CHANNEL: There are those
that say, you know, painting a picture of regional war, have an immediate
JOHN BOLTON, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR: That`s ridiculous.
LEE: Why is that ridiculous?
BOLTON: Flatly wrong.
BOLTON: Flatly wrong. As I`ve said before, the Arab States would welcome
a successful destruction of Iran`s nuclear program. I think you would see
a popular opposition to the regime if only the United States and others
would help it. I think we could bring the regime down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Joining me tonight on Rapid Response Panel, Joe Cirincione,
President of Ploughshares Fund, also Michael Steele, MSNBC Political
Analyst and former RNC Chair, and Professor Caroline Heldman, she is a
Professor of Politics at Occidental College, great to have all of you with
JOE CIRINCIONE, PLOUGHSHARES FUND: Hi, Ed.
Joe, you first. I mean a lot of people in this country think that John
Bolton is office rocker and dangerous. Is it Cruz`s inexperience to take
some behind Bolton or do you think this is who the guy really is?
JOE CIRINCIONE: John Bolton is crying fire in a crowded theater of the
Middle East. I mean there are limits to free speech in this country, and
we should be taking a very careful look of what John Bolton is advocating.
He has gotten it wrong almost every time when it comes to war and weapons.
He was wrong about North Korea. Under his watch, North Korea got and
exploded a nuclear weapon. He was wrong about Iran the first time around
under his watch, Iran went from zero centrifuges to over 6,000 and now
20,000. And of course, he was deadly wrong about Iraq. Probably the
greatest strategic plunder in American history and now he is figuring what
the hell that war work out so well, let`s go try it again.
He`s made a real problem for Ted Cruz. I can`t wait for the microphone in
front of Mr. Cruz to say what do you think? Are you with John Bolton? Do
you want to start a new war in the Middle East bigger than the last two
we`re trying to finish up?
SCHULTZ: Michael Steele, does John Bolton have any credibility in the
Republican Party? I mean, is he a revered opinion...
MICHAEL STEELE, FORMER RNC CHAIRMAN: Yeah.
SCHULTZ: ... and you think he does. OK.
STEELE: Yeah. No, I think he does. I mean there is nothing to disapprove
that otherwise. I mean, you look at the success that he has had in sort of
galvanizing discussions. Now, whether you agree with this, agree with the
discussion that`s another matter. But he is effective and at least raising
some issues and generating at least within the party. And I think we`ll --
see more broadly doing his campaign, discussions about these issues.
I think the premise that you said out here. It is a little bit off. You
did not call for bombing Iran. That headline is as, you know, done by
editors that not necessarily his choice. And the fact to that matter...
SCHULTZ: His name is on it, Michael. His name is on it.
STEELE: Oh, OK.
STEELE: Ed, I`m not going to argue that point with you. Your premise in
my view, it`s off because if you read the article...
STEELE: He did not call for bombing...
SCHULTZ: Fair enough. I disagree.
STEELE: He did not call it for bombing Iran. He reference the two times
in the past where Israel has done similar strikes in 1981 and 2007 against
Iraq and Syria and what about that? Those events led to war, nothing.
So the question...
SCHULTZ: Would you agree Michael that...
SCHULTZ: Michael, would you agree...
SCHULTZ: ...would you agree that there really is an anybody in the
Republican Party like John Bolton when it comes to international
STEELE: I don`t know what that means. We need like John Bolton. I mean,
what -- you may -- define that for me.
SCHULTZ: He is as radical as I get and every solution is that, we have to
be their boots on the ground. We have to take military action. He is not
your next door neighbor diplomats so to speak, that`s what I`m saying.
STEELE: That`s a good line but, hey, now he`s not as radical as they can
get. I think he is done a...
STEELE: ... of season (ph) and well-established, you know, diplomat and,
you know, individual who knows about these areas.
Now, you disagree, you have a policy disagree with them and that`s fine but
I just think take it to whether he`s calling for war is not the case. And
I think of Ted Cruz to the question, I think it will be important for Ted
Cruz to answer that question ultimately...
STEELE: ... but not necessarily now.
SCHULTZ: Caroline, what -- I mean, there -- he was asked the other day in
an interview, Ted Cruz what have you accomplished? What is his foreign
policy resume? Does he need John Bolton to at least take a position?
CAROLINE HELDMAN, PROFESSOR OF POLITICS, OCCIDENTAL COLLEGE: Well, I think
he`s taking this position for political reasons in order to stand against
the President. I do think it`s in absurd position because it looks way too
much like what happened in 2001 with the very flimsy premise suggesting
that we go in and do a military intervention in the country based upon
nothing except the suspicion that persons don`t understand mutually assure
destruction when of course they do.
So I actually see this as being very politically opportunistic on his part
because it`s a terrible policy.
STEELE: Well, can I say some. I mean...
SCHULTZ: What do you think?
SCHULTZ: Yeah. Sure. Go ahead.
STEELE: Everyone is reading this as -- this is coming out on the mouth of
Ted Cruz. I mean, Ted Cruz has not paused (ph) the policy on Iran. Ted
Cruz is not paused (ph) the policy on dealing with the Middle East more
broadly that is to come.
John Bolton is one of many advisors that Ted Cruz has in his campaign so he
wrote a piece. It was his opinion.
Now, Ted`s opinion maybe different, that has yet to come to see but I`m not
going to draw to link that because, you know, John Bolton says that Ted
Cruz is going to act on it or I believe it. And I think he`s paused (ph)
to do that that`s why I think your premises is false.
SCHULTZ: All right. Joe Cirincione, how much of an influence do you think
Bolton`s going to have on Cruz?
CIRINCIONE: I think Bolton represents a wing of the party that`s in a
sentence right now. The neoconservative of wing of the party is back.
You show -- so, Josua Muravchik, another architect of the war with Iraq
writing a similar article. A couple of weeks ago, you heard Lindsey Graham
talking about war with Iran just last week
And I have to disagree at Mr. Steele. I have respect to you, sir, but in
his piece he does say, time is terribly short. A strike can still succeed.
And then he goes on to describe the strike and I remotely debated him --
electronically debated him on Fox just today, and he double down on this.
He started to articulate how our allies in the region where to plow (ph)
the strike. How the people of Iran...
STEELE: So, he`s right about that?
CIRINCIONE: ... would rise up. And it -- I mean...
STEELE: And he`s right about Saudi Arabia would applaud that?
CIRINCIONE: Saudi Arabia wants us to take strong action against Iran, but
this is a region that`s now in chaos. And you wanted now take on one of
the most powerful military forces in the Middle East.
This would definitely unleash original war with unintended consequences
including for example closing the Strait of Hormuz to oil traffic, driving
up the price of oil.
This would be a catastrophe and the U.S. and Israel would suffer most of
STEELE: You know, I think, you know, there is some validity to what you`re
saying in terms of possible consequences. We don`t know for sure that --
those are the outcomes. There are other alternatives in Saudi Arabia and
other in the region, will have a play there. It`s not just, you know, the
U.S. or John Bolton.
SCHULTZ: All right. I wish we could talk more but we`ve got some things
that we got to get to.
Joe Cirincione, Michael Steele and Professor Caroline Heldman, great to
have you with us tonight.
We have to turn now to breaking news from the Italian Supreme Court in
The court has ruled to overturn both convictions against Amanda Knox and
her Italian ex-boyfriend.
Knox`s British roommate Meredith Kercher was found dead in 2007. Knox and
her then boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito were convicted of murder in 2009.
They were acquitted by an appeal`s court in 2011.
Knox has maintained her innocence all along. She is now backed in Seattle
and has vowed to never return to Italy, willingly.
Let`s go to NBC`s Chapman Bell who is in Rome for more on this.
Chapman, what is the latest?
CHAPMAN BELL, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Ed, well, this is a huge turnout for
this story. Their sentences, Amanda Knox and her former Italian boyfriend
Raffaele Sollecito, their sentences have been annulled by the Supreme Court
here in Rome.
Amanda Knox was still sentence to three years for slander for -- that was
for faultily implying someone else was there and committed the crime
earlier on. She will have time serve from that. But the big point is they
are now free. There will be no more appeals for this. The Supreme Court
has said they did not commit these crimes.
This is actually a very rare occurrence where we were told, it seem the
most likely outcome would be. They would send it back to appeal or confirm
the verdicts but they`ve decided not to send it back to appeal.
As I said, they annulled the sentences and they are now free. No more
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: That is the story from Italy. The Supreme Court ruling today
that Amanda Knox and her ex Italian boyfriend, they are free to go.
That is the story from Italy.
Chapman Bell, I appreciate your time. Thanks for the update tonight.
Coming up, new details emerged about the motivations of the copilot in the
We`ll be right back here on the Ed Show. Stay with us.
SCHULTZ: And it`s tonight Two-Minute Drill. I guess you can call it
Just before West Virginia took on Kentucky, there was a little smack
talking going on.
Freshman guard, Daxter Miles Jr., he predicted the Wildcats would be 36 and
1 after facing the Mountaineers of West Virginia. But for all the talk,
West Virginia only put up 39 points on the night as Kentucky dominated the
court. Daxter Miles -- how did he do? Zero he didn`t score at all
following their 39 point victory Kentucky guard Devin Booker responded with
the Tweet, 36 and W O N." Well done.
Rounding out last night`s Sweet 16 action, Notre Dame had a strong second
half and beat Wichita State 81-78, 8 free throws in the final minute help
put Wisconsin over UNC. Arizona makes its third trip to the Elite 8 in 5
years with its win over Xavier.
And also the road to the Elite 8 continues tonight, number 11-send UCLA
takes on number 2-seend Gonzaga. NC State faces off against Louisville
number 1-seed Duke takes on Utah. Go Utah, if that`s OK. And Michigan
State takes on Oklahoma.
Now, the women`s tournament is also heating up. They go the third round
with the face-off between North and South Carolina. University of Iowa
takes on number 2-seed Baylor. Arizona State plays Florida State and
Stanford takes on Notre Dame.
Women`s action continues this weekend with four more third round games
tomorrow on the quarter final action starting on Sunday.
Stick around lots more coming up on the Ed show, we`ll be right back.
SCHULTZ: And finally tonight, we are learning more about the mental state
of Andreas Lubitz, the copilot who intentionally crashed the Germanwings
jetliner, killing 150 people in the French Alps.
The most telling piece of evidence so far is a torn up doctor`s note
declaring Lubitz, "Unfit to work for several days."
A hospital in Dusseldorf, Germany confirms doctors had treated the 28-year-
old within the past two months.
They would not confirm a diagnosis citing privacy reasons.
NBC`s Katy Tur has more from outside the Lubitz home in Germany.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATY TUR, NBC CORRESPONDENT: The German prosecutor`s office has released
findings of what they were able to find within the childhood home of Lubitz
in the Dusseldorf Apartment. They said they did not find any evidence of a
suicide note or any no claiming responsibility for this crash. They said
no evidence of a religious or political affiliation either, but they did
find evidence of illness.
Now, they wouldn`t say what sort of illness exactly but German media has
been widely reporting that he was suffering from depression. They did
find the evidence that he was being treated presently for that illness.
Now, there were doctor`s notes as well doctor`s note excusing him from work
in the past few days including the day that he was flying that plane and
the date that he crashed that plane into the side of a mountain, which
means that he should not have been working that day, that he was ignoring
doctors orders not to be at work, also evidence that he was hiding this
from his employer which would coincide with what Lufthansa has been telling
us that they had no warning signs.
A coincide as well what we`re hearing from neighbors that they didn`t see
anything wrong with him
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I cannot imagine that he has done it, this attention
does not fit in this picture I have for me.
TUR: Orphan people who knew him during his flight club days here in
Montabaur that they didn`t see anything wrong with him.
Investigators then will now be looking out whether or not they can find any
reason that this was premeditated and a motivation for this crash.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SCHULTZ: Dr. Janet Taylor, Psychologist, joins us tonight here on the Ed
Show. Dr. Taylor, I appreciate your time.
You know, I think the American people and people around the globe are
asking the question what is the fine line between privacy and public
safety. I mean, if the doctors said that he was unfit to work but they
couldn`t stop him from work and that`s where I think the question comes in,
your thoughts in all of this
DR. JANET TAYLOR, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, there`s no doubt, this is a tragic
accident. And I have heartfelt sorry -- the sorrow for the families. But
the fine line is the fact that our medical information is protected, and
stigma and blame are powerful against individuals of mental illness. And
there are number of individuals of mental illness who take their medicine
who are treated and work, and no one knows as they should.
But in this case, if he we`re in fact hiding it from his employer, the
blame goes at him and not with his employer.
SCHULTZ: Could he have been so depressed that he was disconnected from
reality and had no concern for anybody else but himself and that`s why he
flew 150 people into the mountain?
TAYLOR: Well, there`s no question. Depression is a conciliation of
symptoms that you can find if you have a major depression you can have
psychosis with it. Depressions are part of bipolar disorder or man with
depressive illness, all of those can contribute to psychosis which means we
don`t know what he was thinking. He might have been paranoid. He might
have felt like he was doing everybody a favor by getting rid of them, no
one ever knows.
But the fact is, if you are depressed, seek treatments. Certainly, if you
are not living in a reality, hearing voices, feel paranoid, talk to your
medical provider, talk to your psychiatrist or therapist, and get the help
that you need so no longer will we injure or kill innocent people.
SCHULTZ: So it seems now that the aviation industry connected with the
medical profession is going to have to come to some conclusion on how to
deal with many mental illness in aviation. I mean if the doctor said that
he was unfit to work, we could not stop him form working. Where do we go
TAYLOR: Well, it`s communication between the doctors treating him and his
employer. Clearly, if I`m sure the aviation company knew that, he was not
fit to work because -- and we`re assuming it`s for the mental illness. We
don`t know in fact, he could have had medical illness. But we`re assuming
that, that there`s a lack of communication because most places of
employment have -- especially when you`re dealing with people who are
operating machinery, people who maybe around children, who are in positions
where their mental state can incapacitate than another people. There are
TAYLOR: ... methods to stop them from working.
SCHULTZ: Well, safeguard methods need to be examine by the aviation
industry because I don`t think there`s too many people that would want to
get on that airplane if they know the pilot or copilot is dealing with
TAYLOR: Well, in fact...
SCHULTZ: Anyway, the traveling public needs to be needs -- to be
protected. We will have you back to talk more about this because it is
such a riveting subject, no question about it.
I appreciate your time tonight, Dr. Taylor.
That`s the Ed show, I`m Ed Schultz.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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