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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, March 30th, 2015

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Date: March 30, 2015
Guest: Ryan Anderson, Dan Savage, Lawrence Lessig, Lanny Davis, Derrick
Pitts, Steve Riley, Jacob Rascon, Ann Curry


ARI MELBER, MSNBC GUEST HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.

GOV. MIKE PENCE (R), INDIANA: We`re not going to change this law.

MELBER: A fire storm of protests against Indiana`s so called
"Religious Freedom Bill", with pushback from Apple and the NCAA.

Are Republicans rethinking their stance?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re willing to add some clarity legislatively.

MELBER: Then, deadline, Iran. How close is a nuclear deal?

JOHN KERRY, SECRETARY OF STATE: We`re working very hard. Very hard.

MELBER: Plus, the growing threat to America`s power grid: an attack
every four days. A debate over whether the U.S. should try to contact
potential aliens in outer space, the push for a new primary for Hillary
Clinton, and the brand new host of "The Daily Show."

TREVOR NOAH, COMEDIAN: Hello. Hello, everyone, hello. As we say in
South Africa, hello.

MELBER: ALL IN starts right now.


MELBER: Good evening from New York. I am Ari Melber, in for Chris

And we begin with news from Indiana where Republicans have gone from
offense to defense. Governor Mike Pence just signed a new religious
freedom law last week, but today, Republicans held a press conference to
discuss changing their brand new law. That is because the law which said
it will lessen the burdens on religion, may also make it easier as you may
heard to discriminate against gay Americans or other groups.

Here are Republican leaders discussing that law today.


STATE SEN. DAVID LONG (R), INDIANA: It is not the intent to
discriminate against anyone and it will not be allowed to discriminate
against anyone. And to the extent that we need to clarify through
legislative action that this law does not and will not be allowed to
discriminate against anyone, we plan to do just that.


MELBER: But a wide range of opponents want the law stopped, not
clarified. Apple`s CEO called it dangerous. Indiana-based company Angie`s
List says it`s halting a plan for a $40 million expansion at its
Indianapolis headquarters because of all of this, and over the weekend,
public protests continued, you can see them on the ground there in Indiana,
while around the country, opposition surging online, 200,000 people now
calling for an Indiana boycott. That is on Twitter alone.

Now, late today, Democratic Governor Dan Malloy of Connecticut signed
an executive order banning his state from having state-funded travel to any
state that protects religious freedom but doesn`t also prohibit
discrimination for given classes of citizens. And the mayors of both San
Francisco and Seattle also banning city-funded travel now to the state of

And then the big guns, the NCAA, which is based in Indiana and is, of
course, hosting the Final Four in just a few days, now through its
president, Mark Emmert, is renewing what it calls concern about this law.


MARK EMMERT, PRESIDENT, NCAA: Our core values are built around
notions of diversity and inclusion, and anything that might create an
environment within which we can`t maximize those values is something that
we take very, very seriously. So, this is something that`s disappointing
in the actions of the legislature, and something that concerns us quite a


MELBER: You know, all of this has left Governor Pence backtracking on
Sunday. He said the law doesn`t discriminate at all. Now, he says he`s
open to some kind of clarification.


PENCE: We`re not going to change the law, OK? But if the general
assembly in Indiana sends me a bill that adds a section that reiterates and
amplifies and clarifies what the law really is and what has been for the
last 20 years, then I`m open to that.


MELBER: Now, when he says 20 years, he seems to be referencing a
federal law that some argue is similar to Indiana`s. But legal experts
have emphasized the federal statute wasn`t written to protect corporations
or employers. It was for individual people`s religious practices.
Concerns about antigay discrimination also have advanced a lot over those
20 years, which is why even some Republicans here, in fact, many
Republicans, not jumping to Pence`s defense.

Take North Carolina Republican Governor Pat McCrory, who says that a
proposed bill for his state that many said was similar to Indiana`s, just
makes, quote, "no sense."

Let`s get right to it, with it Ryan Anderson, a fellow in religion and
free society at Heritage Foundation, Dan Savage, syndicated columnist and
host of "The Savage Love" podcast, and MSNBC political analyst and former
chairman of the Republican Party, Michael Steele.

Hello, everybody.

Ryan --


MELBER: Thanks for being here.

Ryan, I want to go right to you. What do you make up for the law that
clearly in many context could be used to put corporations or employers`
religious views above those of regular American citizens?

ANDERSON: Well, I think this law actually treats all American
citizens equally. It says that people of all faiths have the right to live
out their faith in public life, and if the government will substantially
burden the exercise of their religion, the government needs to show they`re
doing so for a compelling reason in the least restrictive means possible.
That`s the standard that was in the federal Religious Freedom Restriction
Act, which has governed federal law for over 20 years. It passed
unanimously in the House, 97 votes in the Senate. Its sponsors were Chuck
Schumer, Ted Kennedy, and Bill Clinton --

MELBER: Well, I`m asking you more about substance rather than were
there multiple people from multiple parties who banded in support of this.

ANDERSON: I`m saying the substance is good substance. The substance
is good substance, and that`s why we saw a unanimous vote in the House and
97 senators, and Bill Clinton signed it into law.

MELBER: Let me put --


MELBER: I want to bring our panelists in, but let me put the question
to you that was put to Mr. Pence that he couldn`t answer. Let`s play that
from Sunday.


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: You cannot refuse to serve a gay
couple without fear of punishment.

PENCE: Well, let me explain to you --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Is that legal now in Indiana?

PENCE: George, this is where the debate has gone.

STEPHANOPOULOS: It`s just a question, sir, yes or no?

PENCE: Well, there`s been shameless rhetoric.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Is it true or not?

PENCE: George, look, the issue here is --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you think it should be legal in the state of
Indiana to discriminate against gays or lesbians?

PENCE: George --

STEPHANOPOULOS: It`s a yes or no question.

PENCE: Come on.


MELBER: You can see some of the pain there. My question for you,
Ryan, before I bring in the rest of the panel is, do you see this law as
allowing people who for religious reasons don`t want to serve gays to have
those protections?

ANDERSON: Well, of course not. No one is interested in just refusing
to serve gays or lesbians. The only religious liberty concerns center
around marriages and wedding ceremonies. What this law would do -- it
doesn`t say who would win such a claim. It just says that a citizen could
bring a claim to a court and say that a law that would force them to help
celebrate a same-sex wedding, whether it says a florist or a baker or
photographer, that they can get that reviewed by the court, and then the
government would have to show that it has a compelling government interest,
that`s it`s pursuing in the least restrictive way possible, enforcing, for
example, a 70-year-old grandmother into providing flowers for a same-sex

MELBER: Dan Savage, what do you think?

DAN SAVAGE, HOST, SAVAGE LOVECAST: I think Ryan is mistaken. The
Religious Freedom Act that Chuck Schumer supported, that Bill Clinton
signed into law, prevented the government from discriminating against
people on the basis of their religious beliefs. This law is so broadly
worded that although the intent is to target gays and lesbians, bisexual
and transgender people for discrimination, which is why a similar law in
Georgia was tabled when amendment was attached banning discrimination, is
why this law was drafted, and it will legalized discrimination not just
against LGBT people, but all against all potentially.

And this really settled civil rights law, that if you open the doors
of a private business, it`s -- and you`re opened to the public, you have to
be open to all of the public. Publicly financed roads, roads that everyone
pays for bring customers to your business. The police departments and fire
departments that all the public pay for protect your business, make it
possible for you to your business open. And you`re not allowed to decide
at the front door that you want to discriminate against large broad swaths,
groups of the public.

You know, anti-black bigots, during Jim Crow and segregation, made the
exact same arguments that you`re hearing people make now --


ANDERSON: Not at all. That`s really unfair to be saying that.

SAVAGE: There is an infamous interview on the radio of a restaurant
owner using the same rhetoric the segregationists used during the civil
rights movement. These are the kinds of people, these kinds of bigots,
that these laws have empowered.

ANDERSON: That`s really unfair --


MELBER: Let me got to Michael. And, Ryan, I`m going to get your
response. Michael, first.

these moments when you sit there and you just go, "why"? I mean, Dan is
absolutely right. A lot of this is settled law in many respects, even with
respect to the Religious Freedom Act, the idea was related to government.
Now, I think Governor Pence is even acknowledging this law is so broad,
that it has clearly been misinterpreted from its intent.

And the question is, what is its intent? If the intent is to mirror
what the federal law is, then, fine, draft the law that way, and then you
make it very clear by adding to your state constitution or otherwise
language that protects every citizen in that state from discrimination.
When you can`t answer that question fundamentally, that`s when you get on
the slippery slope and have a real problem with the broader public.

MELBER: Ryan, go ahead.

ANDERSON: Sure. I mean, that`s exactly what this law does. This law
protects every citizen in the state of Indiana from government
discrimination. It says the government cannot coerce anyone`s free
exercise of religion unless the government proves that it`s doing so for a
compelling government reason, in the least restrictive way possible. It is
the same --

SAVAGE: Ryan is using the bizarro world definition of protecting
people from discrimination here.


ANDERSON: It`s the same legal standard as 31 other states.

SAVAGE: No, it is not.

ANDERSON: (INAUDIBLE) that Dan says that it`s discrimination. It
strikes me that all of the businesses that are currently boycotting Indiana
are saying that they want to run their businesses in accordance with their
values. And so, they`re free to boycott Indiana. Why is it that the 70-
year-old grandma can`t be free to run her business, and, of course, with
her beliefs, or for that matter, a Catholic charities adoption.


MELBER: Ryan, I know, strong view -- Ryan, I`m going to ask you a
question and then, Dan, I`m going to get your rebuttal.

Ryan, what do you think about folks who look at this and say, OK, yes,
as you say, it changes the standards of compelling government interest, but
what`s going to happen when Indiana runs into, say, someone running a
business who says their business reflects extreme Muslim values and women
can`t enter or work there unless they are in a hijab. Do you think that`s
a good idea?

ANDERSON: I think in a free society if a Muslim wants to run a
business in accordance with their Islamic values, then as Americans, we let
Muslims be Muslims, unless it violates someone else`s right.

MELBER: That`s what I`m asking you.

ANDERSON: So they are running a business --

MELBER: Then, as a legal and state law matter, can they say that
women have to dress a certain way to patron the business?

ANDERSON: I`m going to say, that would have to be solved by the
courts. The courts will have to settle whether or not there`s a compelling
state interest that`s being pursued in the least restrictive way possible.
I` m saying this is a good test. And so, the Muslim citizen would have his
day in court to say that this is what his religion requires, and then, we`d
have to see from the government to see why they think that they have to
coerce this religion. I`m in favor of living and let living.

MELBER: All right. Dan, go ahead.

SAVAGE: And the law says, if the Muslim who is attempting to
discriminate against women can point to a sincerely held religious belief,
which is a squishy, ambiguous standard, that he wins. So really what this

ANDERSON: He doesn`t say --


SAVAGE: Let me finish, let me finish, let me finish. There`s this
bizarro world definition of discrimination that Ryan is attempting to
inject into the discourse here, where the government is discriminating
against you if it orders you not to discriminate against your fellow
citizens. It is settled anti-discrimination law that if you open a
business and you open the doors to the public, you must serve all of the

ANDERSON: They are serving all of the public.

SAVAGE: Ryan and the Heritage Foundation want to take us back 50
years --

ANDERSON: No, that`s not true.


MELBER: Gentlemen, I`m going to bring the chairman back in.
Moderators have to moderate.

Chairman Steele, come join me in this conversation as well. What I
want to ask you for the Republican Party is, you could see the pain on
Governor Pence`s face in that interview.

STEELE: Oh, yes.

MELBER: Now, I don`t know if that was self interested political pain
because he could feel himself withering under fair questioning from George
Stephanopoulos, or whether he may be rethinking this whole thing is a bad
idea. Where does this go, Mr. Chairman?

STEELE: I think -- I think you saw the governor go through a
combination of both of those emotions. And I think that he wants to get
out from under this as quickly as possible largely because I don`t think
the governor anticipated the backlash from the corporate community.

This is the first team that the corporate community has sent a very
clear and un-confusing signal, that this is where they want to go and this
is their concern about this type of law.

So, I think that took them aback and I think what you`ve heard is
almost deafening silence from a lot of potential presidential candidates.


STEELE: As well as other Republican leaders on this issue because,
(a), they don`t want to embarrass the governor but, (b), they don`t want to
have to answer this question. And I think, quite honestly, the country, we
should answer this question, because I think there are good examples on
either side that we have to wrestle with, quite honestly, Ari.

SAVAGE: The reason they don`t want to answer the question and Pence
didn`t want to answer the question is because the answer is yes, that the
intent of the law is to legalize discrimination against gays, lesbians,
bisexuals and transgender people and it`s now a problem to answer that
question honestly and directly, which is why we`re treated to obfuscation
like we`re getting from Ryan and from Mike Pence.


MELBER: We`re out of time. Dan Savage, Michael Steele, and Ryan, I
appreciate you coming on.

And, Ryan, I will say, we reached out to folks in Indiana who didn`t
want to come on. We`re out of time. I appreciate you making the time and
sharing your views with us. Hope we can do it all again.

Now, ahead, we`re going to talk about another controversial item.
Should Hillary Clinton face a primary challenge in 2016? If so, is
Elizabeth Warren the best candidate? Who else is out there? Team Clinton
and Team Warren will actually be here to debate that, coming up.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The first emergency dispatched calls sounded as if
the National Security Agency was under attack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Reported gunshot wounds and possible traumatic
arrest at the NSA connector road gate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helicopter video revealed the chaotic scene and a
white sheet covering a body.


MELBER: Just before 9:00 a.m. Eastern this morning, two men dressed
as women wearing wigs approached the gate at the entrance to the secured
campus of the headquarters of the National Security Agency. That is in

And according to the NSA, after the men failed to obey an agency
police officer`s instructions to exit that area, the barriers were raised
to block the entrance, the car turned, accelerated towards an NSA police
vehicle that had moved into position to block the road and the NSA police
officers then fired at the vehicle before is it struck their police car.

Now, one of the suspects in that car was killed, although the NSA is
saying the cause of his death has not yet been officially determined. The
other man in the car was critically injured, and one NSA police officer
also sustained minor injuries.

NBC News is reporting the car that the men were driving at the time of
the incident had been reported stolen and at least one weapon as well as
drugs were discovered inside that vehicle.

The president was briefed on that incident earlier today. The FBI is
now leading an investigation there, although a senior U.S. official told
NBC News there`s no early indication that this was actually a terrorist
event and it was being treated so far as, quote, "a local criminal matter."

We`ll continue to follow any development in the story and keep you



STEPHANOPOULOS: Hillary Clinton is not the candidate to take on those
powerful special interests?

don`t know where she stands. Let`s be honest here, the presidency of the
United States is not some crown to be passed between two families. History
is full of times when the inevitable front-runner is inevitable right up
until he or she is no longer inevitable.


MELBER: That was former Maryland Governor Martin O`Malley yesterday,
arguing it`s too early to declare Hillary Clinton the presumptive nominee.
While many of the Democratic Party`s biggest names have shied away from
challenging Hillary, names like Biden and Gore and Kerry, and Cuomo,
O`Malley is one of the only Democrats openly pushing her right now, and
that create some of a race.

But many Democrats seem more animated by a newcomer who has said she
won`t challenge Clinton -- of course, Senator Elizabeth Warren.

Some liberals now trying to woo her into the race. The progressive
group Move On says 300,000 people have now signed on to its Run Warren Run
campaign and coming now, an alliance that includes former Obama
administration official Dan Jones and a Democratic primary candidate in her
own right, Zephyr Teachout, are hooking up with the activist and Harvard
law professor Lawrence Lessig to make a formal pitch for a Warren

Lessig arguing that that while Warren has fought against a rigged
system, Clinton, he says, quote, "has offered nothing to demonstrate she
either gets it or cares about addressing it", end quote.

Joining me now is that Harvard Professor, Lawrence Lessig, and Lanny
Davis, former special counsel to President Bill Clinton, a friend to both
Bill and Hillary, and we should mention, he`s not officially affiliated
with Hillary Clinton`s potential campaign.

Good evening to you both.


MELBER: Lawrence, what do you mean?

thing that Elizabeth warren has done so powerfully is to focus the nation
on a sense that many, many people have, that this system is not working for
them. As she puts it, the system is rigged.

And my view is, if that`s in fact true, which I agree with her it is,
we need a debate, a campaign that`s going to focus on exactly why it`s
rigged and what are we going to do about it? And the concern that many of
us, is that if we have a one candidate primary, no debates, no effort to
push this issue into the center, then we won`t be able to address it in a
way that can rally people into getting back to getting involved in

So many people are turned off by what they see as a failed system and
the question Elizabeth Warren is asked is a question we need to get

MELBER: Lanny, do you think the Democratic Party is better off with a
raise that focuses on anointing Hillary or this wider race?

DAVIS: Well, I don`t like the word "anointing." I would encourage
Elizabeth Warren, Martin O`Malley, governor of my state, Senator Sanders,
Senator Webb to enter and join the fray to debate the issues, specific
issues that will take the country in the right direction. I happen to
think that Senator Warren, Senator Clinton, Governor O`Malley are
progressive Democrats are basically in agreement on all the major issues,
including regulating Wall Street.

And on the very specific issues that we can talk about tonight, I`m
not sure where the differences are between Senator Warren and Senator
Clinton, but I`m certainly in favor of a vigorous debate. I agree with the
speaker completely that we`ll all be better off with a vigorous debate and
Hillary Clinton has got to work hard for every single vote. And I can tell
you, if she runs, she will.

MELBER: So, Lawrence, what do you say to that argument, though, that
there is a lot of overlap here among what are essentially progressive
Democrats, as Lanny put it?

LESSIG: Well, I think it`s exactly right. Progressive Democrats, all
of them, see that the frustration exists about the failure of our system to
function anymore. The question is whether we can move the debate beyond
what everybody takes is obvious, to focus on things that would actually fix
the problem.

That`s exactly what happened in 2008, when Edwards and Obama raised
this issue and push it. It engaged the debate. Hillary Clinton had to
respond to that debate then, and I think we have to move it again in this
election cycle, because unless the Democratic Party can give people a
reason to believe, there is something they are going to get by showing up.
We can actually fix the system --

MELBER: What do you mean exactly? If someone is watching, and you`re
referring to those debates from `08, are you talking about specific bills
to deal with Wall Street, and break up the banks? Are you talking about
money and politics?

LESSIG: Yes. In my view, the fundamental problem, the root problem
here that explains what is going on with Wall Street, that explains what`s
going on with the student debt, with the failure to get an economy going,
with the debt of the nation, the single fundamental issue here that we`ve
got to get addressed is the system that is rigged because of the way we
fund campaigns. And unless we have a debate that can bring that up and
address it, then we`re not going to make any progress.

Last year, we did a poll and found 96 percent of Americans believe it
important to reduce the influence of money in politics. We have
politicians who are not even willing to talk about it, to address it in a
way that gives people a sense that there`s a solution that`s possible and
they`re going to push for it.

MELBER: Lanny, do you think that campaign finance reform or
experiments with public funding or dealing with Citizens United are
priorities for Hillary Clinton based on what you know of her?

DAVIS: I know the facts are that the answer is yes. On her
performance in the primaries in 2008, with all due respect to someone who
shared some of our issues probably in common, Hillary Clinton swept every
industrial major state in the United States, carried working family votes
by enormous margins. She and Barack Obama agreed on raising the minimum
wage, agreed on Senator Warren`s proposal and Consumer Financial Protection
Board, she agreed on taxing carried interest, a great concern to Wall
Street investment bankers, at ordinary rates, not capital gains rates, she
has taken on what I think are the progressive values of our party, and has
been a champion of women rights, human rights and all other civil rights
that we stand for as progressives.

So, we need a debate. I completely agree and I hope that we have a
vigorous debate. Hillary Clinton will be a greater and better candidate.
She stayed into the very end in 2008, and I think made Barack Obama a
better candidate. So, I can`t exactly say that it shouldn`t happened this
time when I was arguing last time, that it would help Obama for her to stay

MELBER: And final question to Lawrence on this effort, we`ve got all
of the stats here. Elizabeth Warren said repeatedly she`s not running.

Why do you think you can change her mind?

LESSIG: Well, I think that if she sees the importance of engaging
this debate and that`s a debate beyond the particular that we all want,
we`ve got to get beyond fantasy politics and recognize that unless we
address the fundamental problem here, we`re not going to get any of the
things that the progressives are talking about what they want. And, you
know, quite frankly, even the stuff that the people on the right say that
they want.

The fundamental fact is that this system blocks change and until we
talk about fixing the system, none of us are going to get what we want, and
that`s the debate we want to have, not whether we all agree on what
progressive values are.

MELBER: Well, Lawrence Lessig and Lanny Davis saying nice things
about each other candidate`s and welcoming an open Democratic primary, I
look forward to more of it.

Thanks for being here more, you guys.

LESSIG: Thank you.

DAVIS: And more Ari Melber on TV, I think.

MELBER: All right. Coming up, we have a new debate raging among
space geeks. Is it maybe a little dangerous to be send9ng signals out into
space that are searching for, yes, alien life if you`re not sure who it
might reach? Well, that`s ahead.


MELBER: It`s now a little after 2:00 a.m. in Lausanne, Switzerland,
where nuclear negotiations between Iran and six world powers are really
coming down to the wire. This is ahead, of course, of tomorrow night`s

Secretary of State John Kerry and his counterparts from the U.K.,
France, Germany, China and Russia have less than 22 hours now to overcome
substantial differences with Iran and settle on a framework deal.

At this point, it`s anyone`s guess whether they will be able to get
A state department spokesman told reporters, now the odds are 50/50, but
diplomat quoted by the Chinese news agency said the atmosphere among
negotiators today changed from optimism to gloom.

And Russia`s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov actually left the talks
earlier today and returned to Moscow. He had prescheduled meetings. Now, he
could return tomorrow, that`s according to his spokesman, if this deal
comes within reach.

Now, I spoke with Ann Curry reporting for NBC News from those talks,
and asked her where negotiations stand at this hour.


ANN CURRY, NBC NEWS: Well, they`re within striking distance, within
reach. There are about three or four, as we can gather, major issues that
they still have to resolve, and, as you know, the clock is ticking. It is
going to be a very critical night.
We`re understanding that the negotiators are breaking into teams
to address each one of these critical issues. We can tell you what some of
those issues are, a lot of them we don`t know, but we do know is research
and development from years 11 to 15, whether or not Iran will be allowed
to -- what the restrictions will be on Iran`s research and development of
nuclear -- it`s nuclear program is one of those things.

Another one of those things, and probably the most critical this for
the Iranians is going to be whether or not there will be some immediate
relief of U.N. sanctions.

There is already, according to multiple sources, we`re talking about
sources, European sources, as well as Iranian sources, that the deal to
deal with the larger sanctions, the U.S. sanctions, the international
sanctions, you know, different countries have different sanctions, that
that part of the agreement has largely been resolved. And it really is
going to be a kind of quid pro quo, that`s the plan.

So, another words, if Iran does A, then this particular sanction will
relieved. And this will happen over the course of many years, possibly even
the length of the entire agreement.

But, the one issue that is the real sticking point, and especially for
Iran, Ari, is the U.N. sanctions. The U.N. sanctions send a message --
originally, they sent a message when they were agreed to impose on Iran,
and they still send a message to Iran that they are not part of the
international community.

And so for -- sort of almost a philosophical kind of issue of pride
for the Iranian people, the Iranian negotiators want to be able to announce
that they have
been able to get not only sanctions relieved, but some immediate U.N.
sanctions relief.

MELBER: Ann, from your reporting out there one of the keys to getting
to yes at the end of this is that both sides really want it. Are there any
initiative going towards the finish line that both sides equally want it
badly to get it done.

CURRY: Absolutely. U.S. senior -- senior U.S. officials have talked
about where they are in hopeful terms. There is a feeling that they have
run the marathon and they`re just within sight of the finish line. And,
they feel that if they can just get through this toughest part then they
can actually make a deal.

I think the Iranians feel the very same thing. They`ve spent 18
months, we`ve been here through most of it, 18 months trying to get a deal.
But now what they`re really down to is really tough political choices. And,
my impression based on what
we`re learning is that neither side is likely to come away from this deal
without having some major political fallout when they go home.

And that`s the problem. They`re struggling to be able to say to the
world that they got a good deal. That they didn`t give away too much and
got too little.

MELBER: Ann Curry reporting from Switzerland.

Thank you so much for staying up late and joining us. Appreciate it.


MELBER: We will keep watching that story. Meanwhile, a vital piece of
infrastructure in this country comes under attack every four days. Are we
doing enough to protect it? That`s next.


MELBER: Did you know that every four days the nation`s power grid
comes under physical or cyber attack? Well, that somewhat gulling statistic
is called from federal documents that were analyzed by USA Today.

Now, so far none of those attacks have resulted in widespread power
outages, otherwise, well you might have heard about it. But their
frequencies has raised concerns about the security of this obviously vital
piece of our infrastructure.

On NBC News, Jacob Rascon, in collaboration with that USA Today
report, investigations.


JACOB RASCON, NBC NEWS: It was the most significant attack ever on
our nation`s power grid. The Metcalf substation, powering part of Silicon
Valley near San Jose, attacked by sniper fire, 100 rifle rounds damaging 17

changer for city gas and electric and the industry. No doubt about it.

RASCON: Two years and 15 million dollars in repairs later, still no
named suspects, no arrests.

From terror to theft, physical attacks on our power grid happen every
Department of energy records obtained and analyzed by USA Today show more
than 300 incidents in past four years.

STEVE RILEY, USA TODAY: Many of these were simple incidents of
attempted copper theft or copper thefts, others were sophisticated attacks
like we saw on Metcalf.

RASON: And now, a new threat, cyber attacks.

GERRY CAULEY, USA TODAY: Any given day there is thousands of attempts
to probe and get into the networks and control systems on the powergrid,
and we have the defenses to prevent that.

RASCON: The Department of Homeland Security tells NBC news, it is a
priority to "strengthen our critical infrastructure to reduce risks to
systems we all rely on, including the electric grid".

PG&E says its spending 100 millions of dollars to increase security at
its facilities.

Here at the substation, they replaced the chain link fence with a
concrete wall, beefed up security patrols and added surveillance cameras.

UNKNOWN FEMALE: And here we are, standing in front of a substation
with a wide open gate.

RASCON: But a 3 month investigations by NBC bay area station, Khan
TV, found security gaps at other substations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMAL: No on site security that we can see.

RASCON: Without providing details, PG&E told us their implementing
other advanced detection and deterrent measures.

No one lost power in the 2013 attack, but it was a wakeup call.

CAUDLEY: I think the Metcalf incident was a significant turning point
for us, that`s the reality.

RASON: Last November, industry regulators put in place a new physical
security standard, requiring all power companies to identify critical
transmission facilities, analyzing threats and vulnerabilities, and enact
new security plans.

As threats evolve, attacks are more frequent and one successful attack
is too many.

Jacob Rascon, NBC News, San Jose, California.


MELBER: And, joining me now is Steve Riley, the USA Today
investigator reporter and data specialist who you saw there heading up that
investigation on the power grid.

Thanks for joining me tonight.

STEVE RILEY, USA TODAY: Thanks for having me.

MELBER: I think anyone can understand someone kind of, going over to
a grid, lifting some copper, but what about the cyber stuff here, which is
a lot newer and scarier to people?

RILEY: Well, we looked at both types of attacks, both physical and

Physical attacks, they do represent security breaches that no one
wants to see breached. Those are a real concern, like we saw in the Metcalf

Security cyber attacks, we also looked at, and we saw those across a
broad range of areas. From urban areas to one we looked at in rural Texas,
these are
attacks that are happening all over the country.

MELBER: What`s the goal?

RILEY: Well, in a lot of cases no one knows. That`s one thing we
looked at is how often the suspects are apprehended and rarely they are.
So, we don`t know specifically what the motives of some of these attackers
are. We don`t know, in a lot of cases, who they are.

MELBER: So, that`s scary right there. You don`t know who it is, and
you don`t know why they`re doing it.

I mean, if someone`s trying to knock off an ATM, you have an
understanding of the kind of crime and threat you`re dealing with.

Here, you`re telling me that someone could be trying to cut out power
to a neighborhood or to a wider part of the city and we don`t even know
what their up to.

RILEY: Exactly. And, that`s even in the attack at the Metcaf
substation in California. Those suspects were never apprehended, as we saw
in that report. We don`t know who they are, what they wanted, and why they
attacked that substation.

MELBER: Now, let me push back on what some security analysts are
saying regarding the scope of this. Politico surveyed about half a dozen
experts who are looking at this today and they said look, it`s virtually
impossible for one of these online only or cyber attacks to cause a
widespread or prolonged outage of our North American powergrid.

Do you think that`s an accurate assessment?

RILEY: Well, what experts we spoke with were concerned about mostly
is some type of combination of attack. Either a physical attack, that
targeted multiple substations or facilities at the same time, or some type
of physical attack combined with a cyber attack. Some type of combination
that would have the potential for a broader effect.

MELBER: And, given this reporting, would you say that people should
be more prepared at home for the eventuality of loosing power for a long
time? Did it make you want to change any of your own practices?

RILEY: Well, it might. You can go onto Fema`s website and they do
have the list of what to do to prepare. And, a lot of folks I think might
find that useful.

But, it did raise a concern. These are an almost constant stream of
attacks on the infrastructure we all depend on for our daily lives.

MELBER: I think that is absolutely fair to say. And, it`s the kind of
thing that if one is debilitating everyone will be asking who was on this,
why isn`t the grid better protected, after the fact. Right now, it`s more
at this harm level that people can mostly ignore. That`s why your reporting
on this and what your team did was so interesting.

Steve Riley, thanks for joining us.

RILEY: Thank you.

MELBER: And up next, The Daily Show has a new host and we`ll
introduce you to him. That`s straight ahead.


MELBER: You may have caught Chris Hayes interview retired NASA
astronaut Mark Kelly on Friday about his identical twin brother`s historic
trip into space where he will be for almost a year, while NASA studies what
exactly that does to a persons body.


CHRIS HAYES, ALL IN HOST: So, talk to me a little bit about the way -
- the kind of physiological experiments are going to be run with you and
your brother as a kind of match pair, a sort of natural control and
experiment since, as identical twins, you have the same genetic profile.

What`s the plan going forward?

MARK KELLY, ASTRONAUT: So after he was assigned, you know, NASA
realized that they had a unique opportunity to do some science they`d never
really been able to do before.

And, especially when it comes to, you know, our genes and the way that
genetic material will be affected over this long period of time.

They basically have a control in me on the ground.


MELBER: Now, what you might not have caught was Mark Kelly`s new

According to the AP, he pulled a fast one on NASA right before his
brother lifted off. NASA administrator Charles Bolden telling Kelly on
Monday, he almost
had a heart attack when his brother showed up launch morning without his
usual mustache late last week.

He fooled all of us, Bolden said. Mark Kelly`s mustache was the only
way I can tell you two apart.

The AP reports Mark Kelly was still clean shaven today, perhaps in
effort to keep the experiment as scientific as possible, because if his
brother had to grow a matching mustache, who knows what would happen to it
that long in space.


TREVOR NOAH, COMEDIAN: I wanted to be black, to be honest, that`s
what I`ve wanted. Especially since one day growing up I met an American and
he was shocked that in South Africa we had all these titles, and he said to
me he said, well you know, Trevor, if you go out to America, they`ll label
you as black. I said, really?

He was like, oh, hell yeah, yeah buddy, everybody is black out there.
You`d be super black. I was like oh, that sounds good to me. Super black.

And I made a choice, the first chance I get I go out to America, I`m
going to get a piece of that black.

MELBER: Today Trevor Noah, the son of a black South African woman and
a white Swiss man, who grew up during apartheid will replace the legendary
Stewart as the new host on The Daily Show.

He`s a 31 year old and he joined The Daily Show as a correspondent and
just late last year, he`s appeared, actually, only three times, and he`s
talked about everything from chess to Ebola to American`s views of Africa.


NOAH: I`ve got to be honest, Jon, Africa is worried about you guys.

You know what African mothers tell their children every day? Be
grateful for what you have, because there are fat children starving in
Mississippi. In fact, we`re so worried that me and some of my friends in --
got together and, I told them, I said guys, for just a few pennies a day,
you can help an American.

JON STEWART, THE DAILY SHOW HOST: That is very kind, Trevor.

NOAH: Now, they`re expecting something from me in return, they`re
expecting at least a letter, man.

STEWART: NO, and I know how that goes. I know how --

NOAH: If you want, you know, you can just draw a picture.


MELBER: You can just draw a picture. Well, earlier today Noah
tweeted, quote, no one can replace Jon Stewart, but together with the
amazing team at The Daily Show we`ll continue to make this the best damn
news show, end quote.

Here at All In, we wish best of luck to Trevor Noah, who takes over
the chair later this year.



JIMMY FALLON, THE TONIGHT SHOW HOST: If I was the President, the
moment I was inaugurated, my hand would just -- it would still be hot from
touching the Bible, and I would immediately race to where ever they have
the files about Area 51 and UFOs, and I`d go through everything to find out
what happened.

Did you do that?


If that`s the first thing you that would do.

FALLOW: It`s at the top of my list.

OBAMA: The aliens won`t let it happen.


MELBER: The aliens won`t let it happen, but there is a new debate
raging in the scientific community. This is real. Should we just listen for
potential sounds from aliens in outerspace or should we start trying to
contact them ourselves?

For decades, researches have been listening for signs of intelligent
life. They use large radio antennas.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: SETI is the search for extraterrestial
intelligent. Here, computers operate as sophisticated radio scanners
checking 28 million different frequencies in the microwave bands,
filtering out the background noise of outerspace in order to detect any
possible transmissions from intelligent beings.


MELBER: Yes, it is the kind of stuff you`ve seen in movies. Jodie
Foster was playing a SETI scientist in that `97 film Contact. And now some
scientists are advocating that we go beyond just listening for those
potentially messages from potentially alien civilizations, they want to
start initiating the conversations from Earth.

Now the proposal is new, and it`s called active SETI. Its proponents
believe we should be using radio telescopes like this one there in Puerto
Rico, to communicate with our potential alien neighbors. As SETI`s Douglas
Vey Coach (ph) tells Slate, "in the past, we have always assumed any extra
terrestrial civilzation with the capacity to detect us will automatically
take the initiative to make contact, sending us a powerful signal to let us
know they exist."

"But," he continues, "there may be civilizations out there that refuse
to reveal their existence unless we make it clear that we want to make

But some are urging caution, including some pretty heavy hitters.
More than two dozen people now, including billionaire founder of Space X
Elon Musk, are asking to halt any further attempt here to contact those
possible alien

Quote, "a worldwide scientifict, political and humanitarian discussion
must occur before any message is sent," they say.

Meanwhile, astrophysicist Neil DeGrasse Tyson, well he may have said
it best, quote, "we don`t give our address to members of our own species
when we don`t know. So the urge to give our home address to aliens is,
that`s audacious. But here`s the thing, holding aside those uncertainties,
it would be awesome to make contact with an advanced civilization." He did
admit that.

And joining me now to explain the whole debate is the chief astronomer
at the Franklin Institute in Philadelphia Derrick Pitts. Good evening.

DERRICK PITTS, FRANKLIN INSTITUTE: Good evening, Ari, thanks for
having me.

MELBER: Absolutely.

So, this is a real thing, the idea of active SETI, of saying we`re not
just going to wait and listen, we are going to transmit. What do you say
to the criticism I just showed on the screen?

PITTS: Well, you know, the criticism that you showed on the screen
really is wrapped around a tremendous amount of assumption about what
aliens are like. We have to remember that any time we talk about what the
alien reaction would be to
whatever signal we send out, whenever we talk about that, we`re
automatically assuming that aliens will, a, understand what our signal has
to say, and b, it would mean anything to them at all.

So, we are beginning in a place where things are pretty shaky to start

I don`t see any real problem with sending out information about us.
After all, our radio signals have been traveling out in space for about 100
years anyway. So there`s nothing that we can do to recall that. And any
civilization listening will get a good taste of what we`re like here

MELBER: What about the sort of legitimacy piece of this, which is
this seems like a big decision for the world if we`re going to, as DeGrasse
Tyson put it, tip off our address. Should there be some a wider American
or global debate on this, or does SETI or any other group with the radio
technology get to just start pinging out there?

PITTS: Well, actually I think it is a global debate to determine what
we should send that represents humanity here on the planet. I mean, that`s
really the thing is that we want to send messages that demonstrate the
diversity of life here. And in that sense, if we have one small group
deciding what goes out, you know, that group isn`t being selective enough
to to show the great diversity of what is
happening here on Earth if maybe it is just a scientific message that says
this is a planet. We`re around this star. And, you know, we`re in this
location in space, that`s a different sort of thing altogether.

But I think if we`re going to represent, you know, the life here on
the planet then we should have a bigger discussion about what all we put

MELBER: There`s one question over whether that life exists, and
there`s a second question over whether we transmit information to them.
Would they then come to us or bring something to us. How would that even
be possible if they`re light
years away?

PITTS: Well, this is all part of the assumption piece. And that is,
that again, we`re assuming that if they understand what our message is or
understand who we are, even if the life is of a form that could understand
any of what`s being transmitted to them at all, that`s the thing that sort
of drives what would happen.

So, again, the next thing that happens is the travel time. Any life
form that`s at some considerable distance away from us, say 100 light years
away, if they could travel at the speed of light, it would take 100 years
to get here. Would they really want to use that that way?

MELBER: That`s a long trip.

Final question, Derrick Pitts, if they did make the trip and they
landed in the U.S., the other political question is, then, are the space
aliens entitled to Obamacare?

PITTS: I`m sure that`s a good question. I`m sure the Republicans
would have a good answer to that.

MELBER: You know, it`s the news, so we always have to get in some of

Derrick Pitts, thanks for talking to us about this big debate.

PITTS: Thanks, Ari.

MELBER: Absolutely. That is All In for this evening. The Rachel
Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, Rachel.



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