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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, April 7th, 2015

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Date: April 7, 2015
Guest: Brian Hicks, Dorothy Williams, McKay Coppins, Richard Burt, Bernie
Sanders, Michael O`Donnell, Aliyah Field


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN -- police officer
charged with murder after a video shows him shooting a fleeing man in the
back. We`ll have the latest on this still breaking story.

Then --

country back.

HAYES: Then there were two, Rand Paul declares for president.

PAUL: Is there where we light up the phones?

HAYES: Tonight, why Rand Paul`s campaign against the Washington machine is
already in trouble.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rand Paul`s got to prove that he will nuke a Muslim
country if we have to.

HAYES: Then, meet the Republican lawmaker banning food stamps on cruise

Plus, my interview with one of the activists who boarded an oil rig to stop
drilling in the arctic.

ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

A truly stunning piece of video which appears to show a white police
officer shooting an apparently unarmed black man in the back multiple times
has been released by "The New York Times." That officer has now been
charged with murder. We will show the video momentarily. It surfaced just
a few days after the police officer claimed to shoot the victim because he
feared for his life.

The incident occurred Saturday in North Charleston, South Carolina, after a
traffic stop. The police officer, 33-year-old Michael T. Slager stopped a
Mercedes Benz with a broken taillight, according to police reports cited by
"The New York Times". The driver was 50-year-old Walter L. Scott.

What transpired after Mr. Scott exited his car is the subject of the video.
In Officer Slager`s account which he gave on Saturday, when the incident
happened, Mr. Scott took the officer`s Taser, according to "The Times".
Moments later, Officer Slager reported on his radio, "Shots fired and the
subject is down, he took my Taser."

The video we are about to broadcast taken by bystander and provided to "The
Times", as well as other outlets, it appears, shows Mr. Scott running as
Officer Slager fires as many as eight shots.


HAYES: Moments later in the next piece of video, Officer Slager instructs
the victim to put your hands behind your back. The victim appears
unresponsive. And Officer Slager handcuffs him. Officer Slager walks
away, and then runs back to the original spot, and appears to lean over the


HAYES: Finally, in this final piece of video, you will see at regular
speed, and then in slow motion, as provided by "The Times", it appears to
show the officer dropping something near Mr. Scott. This is the video of
Officer Slager walking back to the victim in slow motion.

The version the follows, "New York Times" says the officer appears to drop
the stun gun near Mr. Scott. That`s the stun gun that he had run back to
retrieve earlier in the video, or it appears he had ran back to retrieve.

South Carolina law enforcement division arrested Officer Slager. His
murder charge brings a possible sentence of 30 years to life in prison with
the death penalty, state officials said in a new release.

Joining me now, Brian Hicks of "The Post & Courier", the Charleston, South
Carolina newspaper that is breaking news on this story all day long.

Brian, thanks for being here.

Brian, the mayor and police chief of North Charleston called a press
conference today to announce the imminent arrest and charging of murder.
Do you know when they became aware of the video and how they got their
hands on it?

out about the video just this afternoon when someone from the SLED, State
Law Enforcement Division, showed it to them. In fact, I spoke to the mayor
around 3:00 and he hadn`t seen it yet. But they knew what was in it and
quickly made up their minds to fire the officer and charge him with murder.

HAYES: The State Law Enforcement Division is essentially like state
troopers, right, in South Carolina. And they also handled earlier
prosecution or ongoing prosecution of a South Carolina police officer that
shot a black man in a gas station that was caught on camera, as well.

HICKS: Yes, they`re like South Carolina`s FBI. And they investigate all
police shootings as a matter of policy in this state. It took them very
little time to turn this one around.

HAYES: I read contemporaneous accounts of this shooting on Saturday, I
believe -- stories that posted the day after the shooting happened, and it
said that the officer said he feared for his life. He had a lawyer at that
point and I think he was speaking to the press.

Did this get a lot of attention in North Charleston when the incident

HICKS: It has been pretty big news this weekend. There was -- we had it
on our front page. All the news stations covered it locally. It is one of
those things that tends to draw attention, the North Charleston Police
Department over the years has been criticized by some community groups,
saying that they racially profile people, that they use the excuse of minor
traffic violations to pull people over and search them, and ultimately
violate their civil rights.

And we have never seen a case quite like this, however.

HAYES: So, you`re saying there was longstanding grievances by certain --
elements of the community against the North Charleston police about police

HICKS: Yes, there have. And I`m not saying those are fair or unfair, but
there have been questions over the years. And what Officer Slager did was
basically give a lot of ammunition to those critics.

HAYES: There`s also -- I believe I`ve seen reported that Officer Slager
does have a few incidents in the past that were investigated and ultimately
cleared of misconduct, including one suspect that Officer Slager tased him
without provocation. Do we know anything else about his record?

HICKS: That is really about the only thing we know of about his police
record and he was exonerated in that case, apparently responding to a
robbery call, and tased the victim of the burglary from what we`re told. I
can`t tell you if that`s true or not.

HAYES: But just to be clear, according to the mayor himself at the press
conference today, it was to release the video or the acquisition of the
video by the state law enforcement division and the showing to that to
local authorities that resulted in today`s arrest and charge of murder?

HICKS: That certainly sped up the process. There had been no call on what
to do about the officer as of yet. He had been placed on administrative
duty where he was working in the office, but I`m not sure what the evidence
was going to show. But the guy had Taser tongs in his back. It`s hard to
tase yourself in the back I would imagine.

HAYES: Brian Hicks, thank you very much.

Joining me on the phone is North Charleston City Councilwoman Dorothy
Williams, who served for 22 years, I believe.

Ms. Williams, thank you for your time tonight.


HAYES: Your reaction to the arrest and charge of murder for Officer Slager
today in the wake of the release of this video?

WILLIAMS: I`m going to tell you, I feel for his family and the deceased
family. But I am so happy at the SLED department finally did something
right in not finding the police innocent. There had been too many times
they have done things like this, and they have been found innocent. But it
just so happens that somebody videotaped it, and there was no excuse
anybody could have given.

And knowing my mayor and my chief of police, they don`t take any wooden
nickel. They would not cover up for any crime. And they say, hey, that`s
it, you got to go, he did it.

And I was so happy because you know, the last few months, you know, just
too many killings of blacks, and they get by with it. And I never agree
with a police department checking on another police department. Ninety-
nine percent of the time they don`t find them guilty.

And by the grace of God, somebody videotaped this and there was no way they
could find this guy innocent.

HAYES: Councilman, can you give us a little context for police community
relations in North Charleston?

Brian Hicks has just mentioned, there had been some complaints by some
community members about the methods of policing.

WILLIAMS: Of course, we are going to have that all over the United States.
But I`m one of the council people that they call on a regular basis
whenever they`re having problems. What I do, I listen to them, and I would
call the chief office and say, look, there are five sides to every story.
Let me give you their side.

They immediately investigate and get right back with me. That is one thing
I must say about our city. They don`t drag on it. They get right back
with me.

And like the gentleman said from "The Post & Courier", one of the main
things, they stop cars and saying that the lights are out -- somebody
didn`t put on their turn signal, and don`t let sometime a minority drive a
nice car. It seems like sometimes it`s just automatic they`re doing
something wrong if they have a nice car.

But, you know, we have nice police officers, black, white, Hispanic, that
have taken care of this city. But this is a message that should go out all
over the United States. You will not continue to do this because now,
because what happened three, four times in a row, our SLED department and
I`m pretty sure every SLED or whoever does the investigating, they know
they have to do the right thing.

That`s how I feel. But we have a wonderful mayor and a chief of police.
And they are always there when I call them about complaints, I always get a
response right back.

HAYES: Councilwoman Dorothy Williams of North Charleston, thank you very
much for joining us tonight.

I want to just reset for folks that might be joining us. Some breaking
news tonight, a tape has emerged published by the "New York Times" and
other outlets, an incident in which an officer, 33-year-old Michael Slager
of North Charleston, South Carolina, where a woman you just heard, Dorothy
Williams, is a councilwoman, after a traffic stop of the man, Walter Scott,
50-year-old Walter Scott, for a broken taillight on his Mercedes Benz
apparently got out of the car.

There was an interaction between the two, and a video released showing
Officer Slager firing at a fleeing Walter Scott, at least eight times in
the back, ultimately shooting and killing him, subsequently a series of
movements, handcuffing what looks to be a dead body, after barking at him
to get his hands behind his back, also appearing to go and retrieve a
Taser, which was down far away and bring it back and toss it on the ground
near the deceased man, Walter Scott.

In reaction to that video, the local authorities in North Charleston have
arrested and charged Michael Slager with murder.

Joining me now, MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid who`s been following
the story, who`s been in contact with representatives of Walter Scott`s

Joy, great to have you here. Thank you.


HAYES: I want to play for a second the 911 tape, because you can get a
sense of the account the officer was giving to the dispatch, to his lawyer,
to the press, to others as compared to the tape. Here`s the 911 call.


OFFICER: 223 Dispatch, shots fired. Subject is down. He grabbed my

DISPATCHER: Additional (INAUDIBLE). Shots fired. He grabbed your Taser.
Subject is down at 9:38.

ANOTHER OFFICER: 34 copy, I`m en route.

DISPATCHER: 23-4, 9:38.


HAYES: So, obviously, the grabbing of the Taser was the immediate
response. If in fact what the video shows is him retrieving the Taser and
planting the evidence near him, it goes to the frame of mind of the officer
about what he had just done.

REID: Yes, absolutely. If you look of the totality of the video, there is
a point in which he appears to notice the person who`s taking the video, as
well. He seems to look over and it`s not clear whether he saw that person
taking video or not, but it definitely does appear -- and a second officer
does come and kneel down over Walter Scott, and appear to attempt to render
some kind of aid at that point. Officer Slager also points his fingers at
the neck of the man who is obviously, as you said, inert on the ground, who
he had also handcuffed earlier.

And what the representatives of the family are saying is that for multiple
days, for up to four days, the officer continued to tell the story that
Walter Scott posed some sort of a danger to him, that he felt threatened
for his life --

HAYES: Feared for his life.

REID: Feared for his life, and that Walter Scott grabbed for his Taser
gun. That was the story that the officer was telling, including his
original attorney. The video obviously appears at least to contradict

HAYES: We should also say, do we know the chain of custody of this video?
It is remarkable, truly horrific and upsetting piece of video.

REID: Yes.

HAYES: It was an act of tremendous courage and bravery by the person who
took it to keep taking it and to turn it over I believe to the family of
Walter Scott.

REID: Yes, the family or their legal representatives are in possession of
the video. It`s not clear who took the video, obviously, or how it came to
be in the hands of the family, but the fact is this person came forward and
directly contradict the story the officer was telling.

Now, the original traffic stop, there was some reporting saying that Walter
Scott might have fled from the officer because he had some sort of
outstanding warrants related to child support custody, but certainly not
somebody who was accused of a violent crime. This was a tail light, this
was traffic stop essentially.

And the video clearly shows the distance between him and the officer. The
fact that he is facing away, his back is to the officer, and there is so
much that contradicts that original story that I think that`s why we`re
seeing the charges now.

HAYES: I do want to show, we`re not going to show this on loop, but I do
want to show this video one more time because it is important for what the
video shows. Particularly as it diverges from the account the officer
gave. Take a listen.


HAYES: The other thing, two things occur to me. One is that it could be
entirely possible, I mean, I know we talked about the shooting of Tamir
Rice. There is a police account that was very different once we saw the

REID: Right.

HAYES: There was a shooting in South Carolina at a gas station, the police
account very different than what we saw in the video. There`s, of course,
the shooting of Michael Brown, which there is no video and different
judgments have been rendered about what actually happened there. The key
thing I think to see in this video is that it could be possible that he did
grab for the Taser at some point. And that also, what happened
subsequently was not justifiable.

REID: Yes, the question here and I want --

HAYES: In fact, that might be what you`re seeing in that.

REID: Right. You don`t know what you`re seeing and I would be interested
in knowing what the status of the fleeing felony rule is in the state of
South Carolina. There was -- I believe those laws have been done away with
largely throughout the country, because there used to be a fleeing felon
rule that allowed an officer to fire if you were running away from them.
That is not the case in most states.

And I think even if something happened and there was an altercation, when
they were close together and could have posed some sort of a danger to the
officer, once he is that distance away and clearly fleeing, then the
question would be, is there some sort of fleeing felony rule in place that
would allow the officer to still claim that`s a justified shooting.

HAYES: And, of course, what haunts all of this -- what hangs over all of
this is the thought of what video we would see if every single officer
involved shooting had video as crystal clear as this.

REID: And what would happen if there were no video. I mean, imagine if no
one there would get this account. There was a second officer there but he
didn`t appear to see anything.

HAYES: Joy Reid, always a pleasure. Thank you.

REID: Thank you.

HAYES: There`s other news to report tonight. We now have two official
candidates for the highest office in the land. Who will stand with him?
That`s ahead.


HAYES: Very big news today in the most important context in the country.
I speak, of course, of the ALL IN 2016 all in fantasy candidate draft,
that`s because another candidate has officially declared, racking up points
for the contestant who has the candidate who has officially declared. And
I know you`re on the edge of your seat about who could this person and a
woman be? I`m going to tell you all about it, ahead.



PAUL: I have a message -- a message that is loud and clear and does not
mince words: we have come to take our country back.


HAYES: There are now two, officially, Republicans running for president of
the United States. Earlier today, Rand Paul announced his candidacy to an
enthusiastic crowd. And unlike Ted Cruz, Paul`s crowd seems to have come
by their own free will.

Paul, also unlike Cruz, had purchased his own domain name when he launched
his candidacy, always a good move, while still support
President Obama, immigration reform now., on the other hand, is a bit like a hipster prepper Ikea, you
can buy basically everything you need for your life, and Rand Paul theme,
everything from an unleash the dream beer sign to an NSA spy cam blocker,
which will help Paul supporters stop hackers in the NSA, safe and

Clicking through, one might think he really is different, that
he`s out to defeat the Washington machine, as a sign to day`s speech read.
Rand Paul does know a thing or two about the Washington machine. His
father ran three campaigns in some ways very successful presidential
against it.

But if you squint your eyes a little bit, you can see that Rand Paul is
doing just the opposite, running head first into becoming part of the
machine. The younger Paul worked very hard earlier today to strike all the
right notes, a little something for every constituency, for his libertarian
supporters, Kentucky Republican threw out some anti-surveillance red meat.


PAUL: I say that your phone records are yours. I say the phone records of
law abiding citizens are none of their damn business.

Is there where we light up the phones?

The president created this vast dragnet by executive order. And as
president on day one, I will immediately end this unconstitutional


HAYES: With Tea Party populists who helped first elect Paul, he railed
against cronyism. And for the foreign policy hawks, he`s trying to placate
at this moment, he made sure to frame his anti-foreign aid sentiment as a
screed against radical Islam.


PAUL: It angers me to see mobs burning our flag and chanting "death to
America" in countries that receive millions of dollars in our foreign aid.
I say it must end, I say not one penny more to these haters of America.


HAYES: Paul`s speech was very well-crafted attempt to please his base,
while appealing to the run of the mill Republican voter. He largely pulled
it off.

But here`s the thing: if you scratch the surface, what he actually provided
wasn`t anything close to a plan to defeat the Washington machine. It was
just pretty standard Republican fare.

Joining me now, McKay Coppins, senior political editor of "BuzzFeed",
author of the forthcoming book, "The Wilderness".

And, McKay, you were there today. I mean, it seems that look, his father
really was a different kind of Republican, really, really different. Got
up there and talked about anti-imperialism in Republican primaries and drew
boos. Rand basically has to keep that base, which he essentially inherited
his father`s machine, while not alienating the median Republican voter who
basically wants nothing to do with the full Ron Paul agenda.

MCKAY COPPINS, BUZZFEED: Yes, it`s interesting. I was actually struck by
this speech, to the extent at which he was trying very hard to make sure
that his libertarian base was still there for him. I reported this morning
at "BuzzFeed" that for the past two years or so, inside Rand Paul`s camp,
there`s been a debate about what their primary coalition is. Is it the
liberty base plus establishment mainstream voters or is that the liberty
base plus evangelical Christians?

They basically haven`t made a decision. They basically decided to go for
all of it, which is why you see some of the tension that you noted on your
opening there, because a lot of the event here was trying to kind of
shoehorn libertarian ideals, which have been central to his platform all
along, into a message that would appeal broadly to the foreign policy
establishment, the neoconservative/establishment, and kind of the
mainstream establishment of the Republican Party. It`s going to be a tough
sell. It`s going to be a very uphill battle for the next year or so.

HAYES: Well, here`s my prediction. I think he will basically jettison any
of his anti-militaristic inclinations he had, anti sort of imperial
inclinations who came from his father, who again, whose campaign he
managed. It isn`t just that, you know, they share the same DNA. He has to
answer for his dad. Like he has his base, he managed his campaigns.

I think he`s just going to jettison that, isn`t he?

COPPINS: Right. Well, I mean, you`ve already seen it in the past, since
he got to the Senate, he`s gotten -- he`s made several policy concessions
to the foreign policy establishment of the Republican Party. And it`s kind
of a tragic story for him politically, because he`s made all these
concessions and the -- at the expense of the libertarian base, which even
Jesse Benton, who was his 2010 campaign manager, told me, you know, he
can`t count on him being as fired up, in part because of those thing.

But at the same time, he really hasn`t won over huge swaths of the
Republican establishment yet. They still see him as very suspicious. So,
he`s kind of in this no man`s land where the activists aren`t happy and
then the establishment isn`t happy, either.

So, we`ll see which direction he ends up going, but I think he probably has
to choose one side or the other and just grab it all the way.

HAYES: Yes, the neocons hate that dude much so much. No natter what he
says, no matter how much he recant.

McKay Coppins, astute as always. Thank you for being here.

All right. Speaking of foreign policy, joining me now is Richard Burt,
foreign policy adviser of Rand Paul. He`s former ambassador, served as
chief arms control negotiator under George H.W. Bush.

Ambassador, I would love for there to be a Republican in this field who
articulates a vastly different alternative foreign policy, but I can`t for
the life of me identify what that is when we`re talking about Rand Paul at
this moment.

I don`t know what you mean about a vastly different foreign policy. I
think what he did in his speech today and what he`s been doing for the last
six months or 12 months is talking about, I would say, a fairly traditional
Republican foreign policy. He has described himself as a common sense
conservative realist.

So, he`s not a neocon. He doesn`t throw red meat to that base. Instead, I
think he identifies more with an effective and successful foreign policy
that Republican presidents have pursued in the past, whether you start with
Eisenhower or you go to Ronald Reagan or George Bush, H.W. Bush, or Bush

He is never identified with isolationism, but at the same time, he doesn`t
support a policy of open-ended military interventionism. He talks about
kind of smart interventionism, where we`re prepared to use force to protect
our vital interests, but not purse peripheral interest.

HAYES: But if that`s the case, Ambassador, if you are articulating that
vision, there`s going to be a lot of people in the field and, you know,
Rand Paul, eye doctor, senator from Kentucky, not a tremendous amount of
foreign policy experience. What you are describing sounds like the middle
of the bell curve of Republican opinion. Why do I vote for him on that?

BURT: Well, I don`t think it is, as you describe it, the middle of the
bell curve. In fact, I would argue that -- and I`ve been working with
Senator Paul for almost two years. I think he`s probably the best prepared
of all the Republican candidates, because he`s read more, he`s thought
more, and he`s talked to a number of people and listened to a number of
different points of view.

HAYES: So, then, could you give me a concrete example of that?

BURT: Sure.

HAYES: Yes, please.

BURT: Absolutely. He has criticized, for example, the Obama
administration for intervening in Libya without a plan, after the fall of
the Gadhafi government and the death of the dictator, not having a plan the
day after.

HAYES: John Boehner has done the same thing. The entire Republican Party
has done that.

BURT: Well, at the same time, he`s supported the use of air power against
ISIS in Iraq.

HAYES: Every Republican in Congress does.

BURT: And has been unwilling to intervene, like some Republicans wanted to
do, in Syria, because we have no allies in Syria. It`s a choice between
the Assad regime or al Qaeda or ISIS.

So, when I talk about smart intervention, he`s thinking about where we can
make a difference, but it`s no not the kind of open ended interventionism
on the one hand that some support. And it`s not the isolationism that
increasingly people argue he represents.

I think what it certainly not a bell curve. I think he`s distinguished
himself as having a smart approach to an effective foreign and defense

HAYES: I do think smart is better than dumb, I think we can agree on that.

Ambassador Richard Burt, thank you for being here.

BURT: Thank you.

HAYES: How an mayoral election today in Chicago is a preview of what 2016
is going to be like for Democrats. I`ll explain next.


HAYES: Minutes ago, the polls closed in Chicago`s first ever mayoral
runoff election, putting incumbent Rahm Emanuel, who failed to reach 51% in
the last election back in February against the challenger from the left,
Jesus "Chuy" Garcia.
Few people expected the politician nicknamed "Rahmbo", a long standing
member of the Democratic establishment, close ally of both the Obamas and
Clintons, to find himself in this position.

The mayoral race has exposed deep dissatisfaction with his leadership.
Progressive activist, labor unions, grassroots, community groups, just
average citizens rallied around "Chuy" Garcia, who emerged as Chicago`s`
great left hope. A plausible alternative to what many see as a culture of
chronism and indifference inside City Hall.

With Emanuel increasingly prioritizing city administration while shutting
down dozens of schools which infuriated lots of residents, and letting
economic inequality fester. Rahm`s even gotten a new nickname, Mayor 1%.

This is a guy who`s close personal friend with Illinois Republican
governor, former private equity manager, Bruce Rauner, and whose biggest
donor is a billionaire investor and self subscribed Reagan Republican, who
said he felt the rich had insufficient influence on the political process.

The race has came to symbolize a larger battle within the Democratic party,
between the donor behold and establishment and progressive populace, and
it`s made "Chuy" Garcia a national figure.

Earning an endorsement last week from Vermont senator, Bernie Sanders, who
is is, himself, considering a challenge to the establishment on the
national level.

Thanks in large part to the huge amount of money behind Rahm Emanuel`s bid,
$30 million compared to $5.2 for his opponent, the incumbent is widely
expected to win tonight.

Recent polls have shown the double digit lead, but having a progressive
challenger has forced Rahm to be accountable to constituents, and that
raises some tough questions for Democrats in 2016.

What if they hold an election and only one candidate with a huge amount of
big money shows up?

I`m joined now by Senator Bernie Sanders (inaudible). Why did you go out to
Chicago to endorse "Chuy" Garcia?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Because A, I like him and B, I was
impressed by the strong grassroots working class movement that he put
together, and furthermore, I was not happy to see a situation where the
billionaire class is supporting a candidate, and I worry about what this
means for our country. Whether a candidate representing working people can
actually win elections any more when the billionaires are prepared to spend
endless amounts of money.

HAYES: Here`s the problem that people will say about "Chuy" Garcia is,
okay, fine, you leftes, you don`t like the billionaires and you don`t like
the establishment. You got to show you can governor. You got to show you
can get in there day one, Chicago`s a big city, "Chuy" Garcia didn`t meet
that in the debates, and I think the same thing happens for presidential

I mean, if you`re running for President, run for President. Run to take the
nuclear football, and to run the damn country. Right?

SANDERS: Right. And that`s right, and that`s why anyone running for
President, anyone running for the mayor has got to have a strong agenda.
And at the top of that agenda is the issue of incoming wealth and
inequality, and the fact that we right now are seeing a situation where 99%
of all new income goes to the
top 1%, and with Citizens United, with the billionaire class now exerting
an enormous impact over our political life.

HAYES: But, here`s the thing. I look out across the 2016 landscape, across
the Democratic party, and in Chicago I know a lot of those folks from back
when I was a reporter there, that were working around "Chuy" Garcia. There
was, you`re right, strong infrastructure around him.

I see nothing nationally for Democrats right now. It is a barren landscape
and Hillary Clinton.

SANDERS: Let me respectfully disagree. I was just out to the West coast. I
was in L.A., and San Francisco, and I was in Las Vegas, and I was in
Chicago, and I was in Austin, Texas. And, let me tell you something, I
mean, all together thousands of people came out because they do want to
hear a progressive message.

There is huge discontent with the status quo. There is an understanding
that we need a massive jobs program, that we should not be the only country
or major country without a national health care program.

People want to see fundamental change, and they know that this country is
now moving in the wrong direction.

HAYES: Okay. That may be true.

SANDERS: That is true.

HAYES: It is true, but Chicago obviously doesn`t stand internationally,
but in Chicago it is a good example, people really were discontent. Right?
I mean, the question is, if people are yearning to hear someone say to them
look, here`s what we can do, here`s a vision for median wages going up, for
you having more money in your pocket, someone`s got to be able to give them
that message and have the organized --

SANDERS: Well, go to my website and you`ll find the 12-
point proposal, which calls for creation of millions of new jobs by
rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure, which calls for raising the
minimum wage to a living wage, which calls for dealing with the over time
scandal, which calls for a national health care program guaranteeing health
care to people, which calls for the breaking up of Wall Street banks.

How`s that for a start?

HAYES: It`s a good start. Are you going to run?

SANDERS: Well, we`ll make a decision pretty soon.

HAYES: If you do run, you`re going to, are you going to run for real is my

SANDERS: Yes. There`s no question about that.

Look, what`s at stake here is not my ego. What`s at stake is the fact that
millions of people are struggling. They`re working longer hours for low
wages. They want real changes in this country.

If I run, it is for real.

HAYES: Senator Bernie Sanders, always a pleasure.

Alright, why does the state of Kansas want to ban anyone on welfare to
using it on cruise ships, in lingerie shops, or to go to movies? We`ll ask
a Republican law maker pushing the bill next.


HAYES: One of the great scourges in the Conservative mind is the welfare
cheap, the idea that there are people around sucking on the government teat
while the rest of us are working hard. And now Kansas, the legislature,
wants to make sure that recipients of temporary assistants for needy
families, or TANF, don`t waster your money.

House Bill 2258, version of which has now passed, both the Republican
controlled House and the Republican controlled senate in Kansas state the
following, no TANF cash assistant shall be used in the retail liquor store,
casino, gaming establishment, jewelry store, tattoo parlor, massage parlor,
body piercing parlor, spa, nail salon, lingerie shop, tobacco paraphernalia
store, vapor cigarette store, physic or fortune telling business, bail bond
company, video arcade, movie theater, swimming pool, cruise ship, theme
park, dog, or horse racing facility, parimutuel facility, or sexually
orientated business or any retail establishment which provides adult
orientated entertainment.

The Kansas governor, Sam Brownback is expecting to sign the bill, and
joining me now from Wichita, Kansas, one of the bills advocates, Republican
state senator, Michael O`Donnell.

Senator, can you you point me to the data that you have in the state
legislature, that shows that this is a problem, that folks are spending
lots of their TANF money of the things you have listed.

MICHEAL O`DONNELL, STATE SENATOR: Well, first off, Chris, thank you very
much for having me on your show tonight. I have enjoyed watching you over
the last number of years since you`ve been on MSNBC.

What we know that there is hard evidence that their is individuals on TANF
have used that money in casinos, in strip clubs, at liquor stores, tobacco

TANF stands for temporary aid for needy families.

HAYES: No, I understand what it is, but I`m just asking if, when you say
there is hard evidence, we`re talking anecdotal evidence or like, a body of
data that says, we`ve got numbers that show a big portion of the money
that`s going is being spent on these things.

O`DONNELL: We never said a big portion was being spent on these things --

HAYES: So, you don`t have any specific data?

O`DONNELL: No, we do have data. We absolutely do have data that money was
used. And, Kansas Watchdog compiled a great list of evidence that showed
where this money was being spent.

HAYES: What percentage was being used on cruise ships?

O`DONNELL: There is fraud in the system, Chris.

Well, cruise ship, that was just more structurally put in place because the
cards aren`t good outside the state of Kansas. So you`ll use this money in
the state of Kansas.

HAYES: But then are there a lot of cruises happening outside of Topeka.

O`DONNELL: Well, absolutely. There`s cruises every day. Carnival Cruise,
Wichita has Royal Caribbean Cruise Line, we`ve got a headquarters here for

So, obviously people from across Kansas use cruise ships all of the time,

HAYES: Let me ask you, one of the things in this list is the lingerie

And, I mean, this sounds silly but it`s a genuine question. Why do you care
where people purchase underwear? My understanding is, under the current
law, if you buy underwear in a lingerie shop, you can`t do that, but if you
buy it somewhere else you can. Should the government care where people buy

O`DONNELL: Well, Chris, I know that there`s a lot of items that people can
look at this bill and sensationalize, like the cruise ship or like lingerie

TANF is really made for the necessities of life, for the gas in your car,
for food, for utility payments.

HAYES: But senator, with all do respect, I understand what it`s for, but I
didn`t write the bill to put lingerie shops and cruise ships. So, if you
feel like those are sensational, you guys didn`t have to put that in the

O`DONNELL: Well Chris, we know that the money has been used in all of
different locations. But what we want to make sure that people are doing is
getting quality of life services that the state of Kansas provides.

Degree completion program was the main impotence of this. We, last year,
had over 6,000 recipients get off TANF get off of TABF and into the
workforce. 6,029 Kansans, that didn`t have a job last year, have a job
today, thanks to some of these reforms and these policies.

HAYES: I notice that firearms are not on the list, can you buy a gun with
TANF money?

O`DONNELL: No, you cannot buy a gun with TANF money. We do not restrict
everything that you can and can`t buy, but really, what this is trying to
do is nail down what TANF is made for, to get more people off of government
assistance and into the workforce.

HAYES: The final question about government assistance, $16 billion in farm
subsidies have gone to Kansas between 1995 and 2012, that`s government
assistance, is it fair to ask all those recipients to abide by this same

O`DONNELL: I believe that those recipients on the Farm Bill, that have CRP
or whatever, that they`re receiving that, Chris, and they`re abiding by the
rules set in place by the federal government.

I thank God every day. We have Pat Roberts in Washington, DC, agricultural
chair, Senator Roberts is a friend of mine, and I know that he cares about
people of the state.

HAYES: I look forward to the Kansas state legislature restricting those
farm subsidy dollars.

Kansas State Senator, Micheal O`Donnell, thank you for coming on, you`re a
good sport, I appreciate it.

O`DONNELL: Well, thank you very much, Chris.

HAYES: After Edward Snowden made a surprise appearance in a Brooklyn park
yesterday and was was hastily removed by authorities, he showed up again.
An explanation, next.


HAYES: Alright. What if i told you that Obi Wan Kenobi made an appearance
in a Brooklyn park recently? You might be skeptical. But, it was almost an
Obi Wan Kenobiesque appearance in a Brooklyn park recently, and I`ll
explain all that, ahead.


HAYES: Alright, I just said Obi Wan Kenobi, but it was Princess Lea,
sorry, sorry. I`ll explain.

We brought you the story last night. A group of artists installed a 4 foot,
100 pound museum quality bust of that of say whistle blower Edward Snowden
in Brooklyn`s Fort Greene Park early Monday morning.

Since the bust was unauthorized, authorities quickly covered it with a tarp
and took it down Monday afternoon. The unknown artist who created the
statue, which clearly took a lot of work, a lot of websites to document the
installations, which meant the media reported on it, probably precipitating
the bust getting taken down in the first place. Following, if the artists
hadn`t told anyone, maybe the bust would have sat up there much longer.

But, after we got off the air last night, another group of artists had
something up their sleeves. The replaced the bust of Edward Snowden with a
hologram of Edward Snowden projected onto the same pedistol.

This new group of artists, who collectively call themselves The
Illuminators, said in a statement, quote, inspired by the actions of these
anonymous artists, our feeling is while the state may remove any material
artifacts that speak in defiance against incumbent authoritarianism, the
acts of resistant should remain in the public`s consciousness.

No word yet on whether NYPD`s intelligent division is investigating the
hologram incident like they are investigating the bust incident.

All right, activists scale an oil rig in the Pacific Ocean and set up camp
to block Arctic drilling. We`ll talk to one of them on the phone, in the
middle of the water, next.


HAYES: As we covered extensively on this show, environmentalists in
Seattle have been trying to stop a deal to allow Shell to use the Port of
Seattle as a staging ground for its Arctic oil drill.

Shell has reportedly spent more than $4 billion on it`s efforts to drill in
the Arctic, but its Arctic drilling has been suspended since 2012,
following a series of costly and embarrassing accidents.

Last week, the Obama administration reaffirmed Shells right to drill in the
Arctic, paving the way, finally, for Shell to resume exploratory drilling
in the Chukchi Sea of the coast of Alaska this summer.

Early last month, Shell began transporting one of its Arctic drilling rigs
from Malaysia, in route to the staging ground in Seattle in preparation for
the resumption of drilling.

But Green Peace was not going to let that happen without a fight. Six
environmental activists traveling in a Green Peace vessel called The ship
the rig, and yesterday when The Esperanza, followed the ship carrying the
rig across the Pacific Ocean, and yesterday, when the rig was about 750
miles Northwest of Hawaii, the activists boarded inflatable boats, and
approached the rig, where, in the dramatic scene, they used climbing
equipment to get inboard.

The six activists are now effectively camping on the rig as it continues to
travel across the ocean, its now North of Hawaii. In a statement to All In,
Shell says that it filed a complaint against Green Peace in federal court
in Alaska and that it is seeking an injunction to, quote, end the illegal
boarding currently taking place on the Pacific Ocean, and to prevent such
actions in the future.

A short time ago, I spoke to one of the activists currently on the rig,
Aliyah Field, and asked her to describe the scene.

ALIYAH FIELD, ENVIRONMENTAL ACTIVIST: Well, we are, as you said, in the
middle of the Pacific. It is a clear, sunny day and the ocean is incredibly
The wind is picking up a bit.

I`m here with my five teammates from all over the world, and at the moment,
we also have a small (inaudible) inflatable in the water with a handful of
more crew from The Espiranza.

And, it looks like we have a deck crew out for The Blue Marlin.

HAYES: Have you communicated with the deck crew? What are those
interactions like? You haven`t precisely hijacked their vessel, but you`ve
made yourselves uninvited guests.

FIELD: Yes, we invited ourselves to the rig, that`s for sure. We actually
haven`t set foot on The Blue Marlin itself.

We haven`t had any direct contact or any communications with the crew
ourselves, but they certainly have been out and taking an interest in us,
and from the body language it`s been fairly friendly.

HAYES: Do you guys have -- I want to ask sort of what the end game here is
in a second. But just, do you have enough food and water to last for a
while? I mean, are you going to make it to Alaska in the, just out in the

FIELD: Well, we came on board with about 24 hours of provisions. We have
since gotten two resupplies from The Espiranza. We are able to take on more
gear from the smaller inflatable boats to the anchors, similar to the way
we boarded the vessel, so, in theory, we could stay here for quite a while.

HAYES: Oh, I see. Okay. So, then the question is, what is the end game
Are you anticipating you`ll be arrested or apprehended? Are you going to
stick on this rig until what?

FIELD: Well, it is really hard to say what -- we`re certainly are
prepeared to stay here for any number of days, but really we`re just here
and committed to being here until Shell hears a message loud and clear that
people do not want drilling in the Arctic this summer.

HAYES: Shell has invested millions and millions in Arctic drilling. Do you
think that you can stop them?

FIELD: Well, it definitely is a large opponent and that`s why we really
need the voices of everyone to join with us and show Shell just how many
people are there are standing against them.

We already have 6.8 million people saying that very thing, and I know there
are many, many more.

HAYES: Aliyah Fields, somewhere in the Pacific Ocean, latched to a Shell
oil drilling rig. Thank you very much. Stay safe.

FIELD: Alright, thank you.

HAYES: That is All In for this evening.

Some news, breaking at this moment on the big story that we brought you at
the beginning of the hour, the family of Walter Scott, the man shot and
killed by a police officer in North Charleston, South Carolina, will be
conducting a press conference this evening, that`s after video was made
available of the shooting. Now, that has lead to murder charges against the
officer in question.

The Rachel Maddow Show will be covering you that, live. Starts right now.


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