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All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, April 10th, 2015

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Date: April 10, 2015
Guest: Arne Duncan, Marq Claxton, Phillip Atiba Goff, Rebecca Traister


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Suspect being tased. Suspect being tased.

HAYES: A California horse chase turns into a police beating caught on

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s disturbing.

HAYES: Tonight, the latest from San Bernardino, the latest from South
Carolina. And the question -- how much do we know about how often police
turn violent?

Then, Hillary Clinton is ready for Hillary. But is she ready for the press

Plus, my interview with Secretary of Education Arne Duncan.

(on camera): I want you to response something Ted Cruz said. He said, "We
should repeal every word of Common Core and we should get the federal
government out of the business of curriculum."

(voice-over): And, an ALL IN exclusive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m tainted by the whole "Rolling Stones" situation.

HAYES: The incredible story of the other woman featured in the discredited
"Rolling Stone" article on rape.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s like they took my experience and invalidated it.

HAYES: Tonight, why Liz Seccuro says her true story of rape on campus is
being lost in the controversy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think that Jackie perhaps believed that your
story was hers?

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

On the heels of one of the shoes shocking instances of police violence
caught on tape ever seen, the fatal shooting of Walter Scott by Officer
Michael Slager in North Charleston, South Carolina, there`s yet another new
video seeming to depict disturbing brutality, this time by sheriff deputies
in San Bernardino County, California.

The victim`s lawyer says it`s worse than what happened to Rodney King. You
can judge for yourself.

The chain of events begun when police arrived yesterday at a house in Apple
Valley, about 80 miles northeast of Los Angeles, to serve a search warrant
in an identity theft investigation. According to police, they made contact
outside of a house of a male, later identified as 30-year-old Francis Jared
Pusok, who took off in a car, driving at high speed until the car became
disabled. Pusok then fled on foot until he found a better mode of
transportation. He allegedly stole a horse from a man in the area,
continuing for miles into the rocky desert terrain, all the while being
trailed by deputies and off-road vehicles, on foot and in helicopters.

When they finally caught up with him, a KNBC News chopper was there to
record what went down.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here we go. Here`s the deputy chasing him. The
deputy fell down. Oh, he shot him with the taser. Here we go, here we go,
suspect being tased, suspect being tased.


HAYES: At this point, the sound cuts out as you see the deputies begin to
beat on the suspect.

But it`s not just these two gentlemen. Soon, more will arrive. Keep

A third joins and kicks. A fourth joins and also appears to kick. They
continue to punch and kick the suspect, who has been on the ground now for
a good 20 seconds.

A seventh man runs up and kicks. This goes on and on with deputies taking
breathers occasionally or sitting back and watching the whole time,
uncannily the horse there. They`re just continuing to beat him on the

Eventually -- eventually they stop. And you can imagine what the man at
the center of that looked like. That was it. That was Francis Pusok`s
mugshot after what you just saw.

According to the sheriff`s department, he was treated at a hospital for
abrasions and bruising and transferred to a detention facility. The
apartment has opened an internal and criminal investigations into the use
of force by the 10 officers seen on the video who have all been placed on
paid administrative leave. And while Sheriff John McMahon said while their
actions did not appear to be in line with proper procedure, he attempted to
offer a possible explanation for his officer`s state of mind.


your adrenaline when you get to the end of a pursuit after driving at high
speeds through crazy situations, blowing stop signs, near collisions, and
ultimately running on foot after a suspect, and when ultimately, you catch
that suspect at the end of the pursuit, it is very difficult at times to
control your emotions and clearly to control the adrenaline. Not that
that`s an excuse for what occurred yesterday, but it is certainly a
challenge that deputy sheriffs and law enforcement officers across the
entire country face.


HAYES: The FBI now says it`s opening an investigation to the incident.

Joining me now, Marq Claxton, former NYPD detective, director of the Black
Law Enforcement Alliance.

Well, Marq, what the heck is going on here?

and in other cases around the nation is that, you know, videotape is really
bringing to light some of the issues that have been expressed in
communities of color for a long period of time.

And what`s sad -- what really strikes me are the comments made by the
sheriff there. He said it was not an excuse, but most definitely sounded
like an excuse. And really, what he was in essence saying is that there is
a thin line between vigilante behavior and professional police behavior,
and that`s sad. And that points to the larger need to engage in
conversation and to actually enact reforms in police and law enforcement.

HAYES: Let me just -- to be clear, the suspect in this case was white. I
think believe -- most, if not all the officers were white, so there was not
the same kind of racial issue at the heart of this. What strikes me so
much about this video is the group nature of it, and the sense that
everyone is participating in what looks clearly to be an illegal beating of
a suspect after he`s been detained with the expectation that no one was
going to know and they`re not going to have any problem explaining why this
guy and his mugshot is going to look like he just lost a boxing match.

CLAXTON: Well, see, you just clearly laid out what the problem -- how it
occurs in law enforcement. You know, there`s a theory in gang assaults and
mob behavior and riot behavior. It`s called the contagion theory.
Basically, other individuals will join into the fray, not because it was
their idea, but just because that`s part of joining or bonding with the
others who are engaged in it.

And that in essence is what`s occurring throughout the nation in law
enforcement. And it goes across the board, across racial divide, et
cetera. But that is what we`re faced with now, and that`s what happens
when you don`t expect the professional police or law enforcement agencies,
when you accept vigilantism, when you accept excuses, when you accept
misconduct, when you label and classify criminality as brutality, as
opposed to what it is, we have got to tighten down and develop a strategy
nationwide strategy, and nationwide standards to avoid this types of

HAYES: OK, let me ask you this about your own experience. You`re a police
officer for many years. Obviously, there are tussles that happened with
police officers, people who are genuinely resisting arrest, in which, you
know, force is needed to subdue them. This kind of just sort of collective
beat-down as an expression it appears of just anger and frustration that
this guy made you chase him for a few hours, is that something you had ever
seen firsthand in your experience as a cop?

CLAXTON: It`s unacceptable, it`s unacceptable. As a matter of fact, what
makes it more scary is that not one of those individual police officers
could be seen pulling his colleagues away from or trying to stop the
beatdown. As a matter of fact, more people joined in.

And what it points to is there is a culture in law enforcement, there is a
fraternity that far goes beyond law, rules, regulations, et cetera. And in
those heated situations, where your training to kick in. Of course, there
are times when you`re worked up with emotion, when your adrenaline is
pumping, when you`re in the midst of a pursuit, et cetera, but that`s when
your training is supposed to kick in.

And when your training doesn`t kick in, it`s up to your colleagues to
correct you. That`s not happening now in current day law enforcement.

HAYES: Marq Claxton, always a pleasure -- thank you.

There`s new dash cam video from the day Officer Michael Slager shot Walter
Scott from a different officer patting down the passenger who appears to
have been in the car with Scott when he was pulled over. That passenger
was interviewed this afternoon by the South Carolina Law Enforcement
Division, the state body investigating the shooting. They say he`s not a
suspect and does not want to be identified.

Even with two dash cam videos, I think it is inarguable that we wouldn`t be
here where we are now without the cell phone video recorded and released by
Feidin Santana.

According to the editorial board of "The New York Post" however, the
violence in that video is not a sign of a bigger problem, it`s just the
opposite. Quote, "Cameras are everywhere today -- even a near-abandoned
stretches of Southern towns. With easy uploading to the Internet, the
imagined epidemic of criminal cops would be all over the Web, were it

But it is all over the web. Just search police brutality on YouTube and
you`ll come up with hundreds of thousands of results. Just this week, cell
phone video emerged showing a disturbing interaction between police in
Vineland, New Jersey, and a black man named Phillip White, who had
allegedly been screaming on the sidewalk. White later died in custody.
Officers involved have been placed on administrative leave and the county
prosecutor is investigating the incident.

And then there`s this incident of a couple of teenagers in Virginia being
stopped by police who said they smelled marijuana in their car. Warning,
what happens next may be upsetting.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taser, taser, taser.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get out of the vehicle now!


HAYES: And there`s this surveillance tape, which may have seen this week,
apparently showing NYPD cops stealing more than $2,600 from a deli during a
raid. That officer has been stripped of his gun and badge, and placed on
desk duty, and internal affairs has opened an investigation.

As eye-opening as these may be, these videos do not tell the whole story
about what was happening and whether in each of these cases, the police
necessarily did something wrong. Although stealing $2,600 seems pretty
clear cut.

They don`t answer how common is police abuse and misconduct? It seems like
every time, something like a shooting in North Charleston occurs, we`re
told the overwhelming majority of cops are good, do their job well, are
professional, and there`s a few bad apples.

But it is hard to know the extent of police misconduct, thanks to a
startling lack of data on policing in America.

I`m joined now by Philip Atiba Goff, co-founder and president of the Center
of Policing Equity.

And one of the things you guys do there is attempt to collect the
statistics. So, here`s what I want to know this -- I am weary of falling
into the trap we fall into cable news, which is to spotlight the extreme
and give people the wrong sense of how likely an event is going to occur.
Airplane crash is a perfect example, right? We have this joke, we don`t
cover all the planes that land.

If you just watch cable news, or you just watch the news, you`d think that
flying is dangerous. In fact, it`s extremely safe. I can see a police
officer or someone else in the country saying, if I just watch your
program, all I see are these dramatic videos of police doing terrible
things, when there`s hundreds of thousands doing great things every single
day, and not being shown.

At the same time, there are people who argue, if these are just the ones
that happen to be caught on tape, how often is this happening when not
being caught on tape? And so the question is, what do we know about how
common abuse is?

asking questions about data, because as a social justice nerd, that fits
right in my wheel house. The sad thing is, we know very, very little.
There are a bunch of data sets that have really bad data in them, right?

So, we`ve got the justifiable homicide database that the FBI keeps, but
that`s a voluntary thing, and it`s 750 something odd agencies. It`s not
very many folks. There was the Death in Custody Reporting Act that was
passed in 2000 and it was just reauthorized this past December. But when
it was past in 2000, it was 2005, 2006, before they really started getting
the data and it expired in 2006.

So, in terms of federal data, we`ve got basically nothing that tells us

HAYES: Wait a second, let me stop you. The Death in Custody Act, that
requires mandated reporting of every law enforcement agency of everyone
that dies in custody?

GOFF: That was kind of the goal, yes. And it started in 2000 when it was
first authorized. Then, in 2006, it expired. And it just got reauthorized
again in December of this past year.

HAYES: Right. So, we have -- we just don`t have any data between 2006 and

GOFF: We don`t have any data from 2000 to 2005 really.

The hard thing to understand is it takes a lot of energy and infrastructure
to get these data to be captured, because municipal law enforcement is just
that, it`s municipal. We have 17,000 some odd agencies all over the
country and each one does policing differently. Whether it`s 10 people in
a department and most of them are on patrol most of the time, who is in
charge on making sure your data comes in and that`s clean and that`s easy
to report to the federal government and how much of a priority is that for
you, right?

So, it takes a lot of money, a lot of commitment, and it was doing that in
the Death in Custody Act, but then it expired. So, then we didn`t have
anything, and that`s the situation we`re in, but without the act that it
really gave us anything, and those were just counting the deaths and not
the actual shots fired. And the best estimates we have, which are still
pretty bad, is that 50 percent of the time that an officer discharges his
firearm, nobody dies. So, that means that we have to at least double the
number of deaths to figure out how many times an officer discharges their

HAYES: So, wait a second. I mean, I know that we have no national
database even or we`re working to establish a database of people killed in
officer involved shootings, right, killed by police. Whether that`s ruled
justified or not. That data we still do not have comprehensively, right?

GOFF: That`s right. That`s what I`ve been trying to do with the Center
for Policing Equity with Jack Glaser and all of my colleagues this year is
to do it in a private way, because law enforcement is reluctant to give it
over to the federal government, and frankly, I`m not sure that we`ve got
things set up for the federal government to collect those data right now

HAYES: So, what you`re saying to me, is when I look at this video of this
beatdown that was administered in San Bernardino, I don`t know if that is
as rare as a plane crash or as common as a divorce, right? I mean, I --
that could be something that happens extremely rarely or it could be
something that actually happens a fair amount. There is no empirical way
to -- for me to know?

GOFF: Well, the best data that we`ve got does say that it`s far less
common than divorce in this country. And I`m mad at you for making me make
that comparison.

Every major city in law enforcement that we look at, use of force is a
relatively rare occurrence. We`re talking in the range of 5 percent is
really, really high, 2 percent and 1 percent is relatively sort of common
and low. So, we`re talking about rare occurrences. But how often does it
get out of hand when force is used? That`s a harder thing to estimate.

HAYES: So you can take the universe of application of force, and we don`t
know how often that`s being used properly, even if force -- the application
of force is actually a pretty small percentage of what police departments
do as a sort of general matter in the big departments.

GOFF: That`s exactly right. And we don`t know about disparities. Again,
there`s a lot we don`t know. I will say from the departments where I`ve
taken a look at the data, it is the case, it`s a fair thing to say, it`s
rare when folks use force, and it`s rarer still when they use excessive

So, I think we should be comfortable saying that from what we`ve seen
anecdotally. But we shouldn`t be comfortable relying on anecdote for too
much longer. We`ve relied for wage long already.

HAYES: Thank you very much, Phillip Atiba Goff.

GOFF: Thanks.

HAYES: All right. Still to come today, we`ve learned that
is the greatest 404 error page in history. This is what you got, after the
site pulled down this story, false report that Nancy Reagan is endorsing
Hillary Clinton for president. But Hillary fever causes people to do and
say all sorts of strange things and we`ll be discussing that ahead.

Plus, did Jackie, the woman at the center of "Rolling Stone`s" discredited
story of gang-rape at UVA, actually co-opt another woman`s true story? An
exclusive interview you don`t want to miss is coming up.


HAYES: At the NRA leadership forum, a number of Republican presidential
candidates, including one who has declared, took the stage, as well as the
NRA`s executive vice president, Wayne LaPierre. And there were a few
references to a certain former secretary of state and imminent Democratic
presidential candidate, Hillary Rodham Clinton.


WAYNE LAPIERRE, NRA EXEC. VICE PRESIDENT: Whitewater-gate, cattle-gate,
Gennifer Flowers-gate.

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL (R), LOUISIANA: I wonder what her slogan is going to be.
It may be, what difference does it make?

LAPIERRE: Nanny-gate, Lincoln Bedroom-gate, travel-gate.

GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: Former Secretary of State Hillary
Clinton actually gave Russia a reset button.

LAPIERRE: Trooper-gate, file-gate, Paula Jones-gate.

FORMER GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: It`s the liberal progressive world view
of Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and Eric Holder.

LAPIERRE: Vince Foster-gate, helicopter-gate, White House coffee-gate.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: You know, we had good news ready for Hillary,
had their first hire -- the head of e-mail security.

LAPIERRE: Web hobble hush money-gate, pardon-gate, illegal gift-gate,
Monica-gate, Benghazi-gate, email-gate, wipe server-gate. Hillary Clinton
has more gates than a south Texas cattle ranch.


HAYES: It`s a long, long climb for a short slide there from Wayne
LaPierre. If you`re keeping track, email-gate and wipe server-gate got two
different gates. "New Republic`s" Rebecca Traister who literally wrote on
Hillary Clinton running for the White House, and former senior adviser to
President Obama, David Axelrod, join me just ahead.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton, the leading Democrat in terms of the
2016 race.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The presumptive Democratic candidate, Hillary Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The likely frontrunner Hillary Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The likely Democratic presidential candidate, Hillary

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is the presumptive Democratic nominee.


HAYES: In what is both news and its literal opposite, Hillary Clinton is
expected to declare her presidential bid as early as Sunday, with an
announcement online. And to follow up with campaign stop next week,
including in first of the nation caucus state Iowa.

Clinton has already been subject to more raw press coverage than any other
candidate and has her first, quote-unquote, "scandal" with revelation she
used private e-mail for State Department business. Clinton has a famously
fractious relationship with the press, and her campaign staff, as well as
her husband, believe the media favored Barack Obama over Hillary Clinton in
the 2008 campaign. Clinton herself acknowledged the acrimony between her
and the media last month.


relationship with the press has been, at times, shall we say, complicated.


And when Peter asked if I wanted to spend an evening with a roomful of
political reporter, I thought to myself, what could possibly go wrong?


HAYES: Now, the amazing Clinton campaign is trying to address the problem.
Apparently, last night, Clinton`s campaign reportedly held an off the
record dinner with journalists in Washington, D.C. It was, according to
this report, "quite a scene." With Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta
hosting and cooking the dinner himself, serving pasta with walnut sauce,
which I`ve never tried, to the assembled journalists.

Tonight, another key Clinton staffer Joe Benenson was reportedly set to
host a similar event in New York. I`m sitting here but I didn`t get an

What does this mean for Clinton`s campaign and the weird reality of
distortion field that is the campaign press corps and presidential campaign
writ large?

Joining me now, Rebecca Traister, senior editor of "The New Republic", and
author of the fantastic book, "Big Girls Don`t Cry", about the 2008
presidential election. And David Axelrod, NBC News senior political
analyst, former senior adviser to President Obama, author of "Believer: My
Four Years in Politics".

All right, Rebecca, the big question, the chicken and egg question -- is
the media unfair to Hillary Clinton, therefore Hillary Clinton and people
in Hillary Land bunker down and act with this kind of like embattled
attitude towards the press? Or does the embattled hostility towards the
press produce the bad relationship in this relationship?

REBECCA TRAISTER, THE NEW REPUBLIC: That`s the chicken and the egg
question, and you sort of have to go back so far to a different generation
of press really, to the sort of embryonic stage of Hillary`s place in the
national conversation, in the national spotlight, to when she was -- you
know, in the early `90s, running as a prospective first lady alongside Bill
Clinton, and was a lightning rod at that point, and was just sort of
pummeled for all kinds of things. She was an --

HAYES: Crazy stuff, too.


HAYES: Things are just manifestly, obviously, sexist.

TRAISTER: Oh, yes. But she was really new. And we forget how far we`ve
traveled as far as first ladies go and the amount of time -- thanks to
Hillary in large part. I mean, she was a total anomaly on the presidential
scene. She had a career and education that was comparable to her
husband`s. He tried optimistically to sell it as a two for one presidency
which didn`t go over so well.

She represented a generation of women who had brought change that remained
discomforting to the nation. And so, she was treated in the press,
especially the presidential press that was unused to this kind of first
lady, with real aggression. And she, who doesn`t have, I think, it`s also
true, a natural ease with the press.


TRAISTER: Though she does have a natural social ease, but not with the
press -- responded in kind and that`s been going on for 30 years now.

HAYES: So, David, it`s now 2015. We`re seven years past that primary, so
you can be totally honest here. You guys did get better coverage than
Hillary Clinton in 2007 and 2008.

good coverage. We were a better story, frankly.

And I think we didn`t bring to it the sense of -- the adversarial sense
that seemed to consume their campaign. You know, I`m a former journalist
and I understand journalist jobs aren`t to be stenographers, just simply
writing down what candidates say.

You know, I tried to impart that to the entire operation. Obama himself is
a writer. And, you know, he enjoyed interaction. I can`t say he always
loved the coverage he got. Sometimes he can be thin skinned, too, but
generally, he had a pretty good relationship with his press corps.

HAYES: The irony here is I would say, actually, I bet you if there was
some metric to measure it, Barack Obama`s attitude towards the press corps
is probably more similar to Hillary Clinton`s now having been through this
for six years than it was back in 2008. Wouldn`t you say that?

AXELROD: There`s no doubt that he`s been through some -- the relationship
has been tested over these years.

HAYES: Right.

AXELROD: You know, even though every president says they don`t read this
stuff, they read this stuff. And they react to it. But he does continue
to have off the record sessions with reporters, conversations with
reporters. He does go back in the plane from time to time.

It is not a kind of sense of embattlement that sometimes has consumed --
Hillary, I think, look, one of the encouraging things from her standpoint
is -- in terms of press relations is that she`s hired some people, Jen
Palmeri, who came from the White House, Christina Shockey, who had so much
to do with Michelle Obama`s communications, and a number of young people
who they brought with them, all of whom have good relationships with the
news media. I think that`s going to be helpful to her in this campaign.

TRAISTER: I agree that her improved relationships with young people is
going to make a real difference, including a new generation of people --

HAYES: That`s a great point. There`s actually --

TRAISTER: -- covering her, who aren`t informed (ph) of 25 years of Hillary
Clinton and view her with fresh eyes.

HAYES: Don`t have a sort of preemptive eye-rolling of, well, what`s the
story here, or I know everything about her, or have preconceived notion
that the Clinton people are difficult, et cetera.

TRAISTER: Right, and they aren`t coming with that baggage that made her
such a lightning rod in the `90s. They`re more -- they know the text from
Hillary Hillary, the new meming of Hillary as the cool, tough brood, which
was unthinkable in the early `90s. It was unthinkable even six years ago
when we were doing this the first time. There`s no easy way to sell
Hillary Clinton as the cool, tough lady.

There now is, thanks a lot of young people and their media, and that`s
going to really shift. If she embraces it and remains sort of calm and
casual and cool about it, I think could work very well for her.

AXELROD: I think, Chris, there`s another element to this, which is one of
the great challenges for her is to be more revealing of herself, to give
people more of a sense of who she is, of what motivates her in an authentic
way. That was missing for at least half the campaign in 2007. I would
argue that she got to be a much better candidate after she lost the Iowa
caucuses, and she threw caution to the wind. Her vulnerabilities were more
obvious. Her sense of identification with people became more obvious.

She has to be more like that candidate. But you have to -- that
necessarily means you also have to be able to communicate through and with
and to the media in an authentic way. That`s a challenge she`s going to
have to meet in this campaign.

TRAISTER: David is highlighting one of the real worries about her not
being primaried, which is that Hillary has always been at her best and her
most authentic and relatable when she`s down. When she feels like she has
something to lose, when she`s going in a position of power, (a), the press,
and arguably Americans view her, you know, more negatively. But also, she
is tighter, more canned, more controlled, more careful.

And when she feels like she has nothing to lose, and you could see that if
you look at the 2008 race, in New Hampshire when she was going to lose, she
let go a bit. Toward the end, as it was clear she was going to lose, she
let go again. And, of course, her greatest rhetorical moment was the
moment concession.

Hillary is great when losing, challenged, and scrappy. And the idea she`s
not going to get primary here is very worrisome.

HAYES: That is a fantastic point.

Rebecca Traister and David Axelrod, thank you both.

AXELROD: Good to be with you.

HAYES: All right. We are celebrating a very special anniversary here
tonight. I`ll tell you what it is. That`s next.


HAYES: The first show that ever aired at 8:00 p.m. on MSNBC was this:
"Internight," 19 years ago, which interviewed President Bill Clinton in its
inaugural show.

Over the court of history of MSNBC, we`ve had a lot of shows in the 8:00
p.m. hour and elsewhere. Some of them were on and off the air so fast
there is very good chance you, and even we, didn`t quite remember them.

Everything from Alan Keyes`s "Making Sense," to Jesse Ventura`s "America,"
airing on Saturday`s, to Dietl and Daniels featuring former New York City
detective Bo Dietl.

All of which is to say, cable news is an ephemeral medium. And I say this,
because while I was in Mexico last week I missed a number of things, and
one of the things I missed was the two-year anniversary of this show.

We`re two. That means we`re walking now, stumbling around like a drunkard,
but still soiling ourselves, if cable development looks anything like human

We love having you watch the show and getting your feedback. We really do.

This past year, we launched "All In America." We traveled around the
country and talked to all sorts of people and it`s something I`m incredibly
proud of. We have even more ambitious plans for the
coming year. So stay tuned.


HAYES: At the center of a now discredited and retracted report from
Rolling Stone magazine on an alleged gang rape at the University of
Virginia campus was a woman known to readers only as Jackie. In the story,
Jackie described to the reporter Sabrina Reuben Edderly was beoynd
horrific. She said she had been raped by seven men at a Phi Kappa Psi
fraternity house while two others gave instructions and watched.

And according to Rolling Stone`s reporting, this wasn`t the first time
something so heinous had happened on the campus, I`m quoting here, "you can
trace UVA`s cycle of sexual violence and institutional indifference back at
least 30 years. And incredibly the trail leads back to Phi Psi. In
october 1984, Liz Seccuro was a 17-year-old virgin, when she went to a
party at the frat, was handed a mixed drink. Things became spotty after
Seccuro had a few sips. But etched in pain was a clear memory of a sranger
raping her on a bed."

Now, for the first time since Rolling Stone`s report was released last
November, Liz Seccuro is speaking out, sitting down for an exclusive
interview with MSNBC`s Ronan Farrow.


LIZ SECCURO: I`m coming from a singular place in this story in that I
spoke with a reporter, I gave context, it actually happened to me. I wrote
a book about it and ostensibly it had happened again. Who am I to question
the veracity of such a report?

RONAN FARROW, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Liz Seccuro was the other woman
featured in the now infamous discredited Rolling Stone article. In 1984,
she was a 17-year-old freshman at the University of Virginia.

SECCURO: I was invited to a fraternity rush party. I was offered a drink
from the bar by two men who said they were brothers at Phi Kappa Psi.

FARROW: Liz Seccuro she says she was gang raped that night at Phi Kappa
Psi, the same fraternity where the Rolling Stone article claimed Jackie`s
eerily similar attack took place some 28 years later.

SECCURO: I remember -- I remember during the night thinking I was going to
die. And I woke up in the room that I recognized from the night before,
and I`m covered in a sheet, and a filthy sheet, and it`s covered in blood.
And I look down with horror and I realize it`s my own blood.

FARROW: Years later, in 2005, one attacker wrote to Liz asking for
forgiveness. William Bebee, a man the fraternity maintains was not an
initiated Phi Kappa Psi brother, but who Liz says was no outsider, renting
a room in the house and appearing in numerous photos with fraternity

Liz turned over his letters to the Charlottsville police department who
took on the investigation.

William Bebee (ph) eventually pled guilty to aggravated sexual battery and
served time behind bars.

Liz says that`s what made her story appealing to Rolling Stone and its
reporter, Sabrina Erdely.

SECCURO: I`m sort of that rare bird who has something that is on the
public record, and can be used in the context to bolster the story she was
trying to tell.

FARROW: And that`s what you think she wanted to accomplish to bolster
Jackie`s story?

SECCURO: Well, absolutely. I think providing anything of context,
especially if you`re talking about a gang rape at the same fraternity, the
same school, at the same time of year to a first-year student, what are the
odds? It`s like seeing a unicorn, do you know what I mean?

FARROW: And seeing it twice.

SECCURO: And seeing it twice.

FARROW: And then there were those similarities between Liz`s story and
Jackie`s, similarities first learned about in a call from Erdely, the
reporter, the night before the piece of published.

SECCURO: She goes, this is going to blow you away, because it`s so much
like your case, anonymous people, blog commenters, my friends and my family
all called me or commented or wrote to me and said, this is your story.

I can`t comprehend how someone would co-op someone else`s pain and story
for this.

FARROW: Do you think there`s a chance that`s what happens, that Jackie co-
opted your story?

SECCURO: I think -- as I said, it`s been suggested to many so many times
that I have to allow it to be a possibility.

It struck me as extremely odd, because there are 38, maybe 37 now that at
the time -- but there are 38 fraternities. This one is occupying a huge
piece of real estate right right on the corner. It`s also the only one
where there`s a documented gang rape, my own. Things like that sort of
make me, you know, feel that there is some need on the part of a survivor
to make legitimate her experience and a need on the part of the publication
to then bolster it with an actual account because it matches it up and book
ends it and it makes it all meet, doesn`t it?

FARROW: They almost conflated the two stories for credibility.

SECCURO: Almost. You know, I can`t say. I was not, you know, there. But
it just seems too

FARROW: Liz says her 2011 memoir of her rape "Crash Into Me" was well
known on campus.

I understand the crisis management center there gave out your book to


FARROW: Do you think that Jackie perhaps believed that your story was

SECCURO: I think that somebody who has now told the story so many times
and stuck by her story, even after being discredited, I believe that that
person would have some mental issues and would believe -- would believe

FARROW: If this is true, if by some happenstance Jackie co-opted your
story, to use your words, what is your message to her?

SECCURO: Well, I think right now my message to her is to get some help and
to understand -- and I`m not ruling out that nothing happened to her. I
think something traumatic has happened to her in her life. And I think she
needs to get some help to address that.

It`s very easy to become enamerred with the survivor community and dive
into that. But unless you`re willing to talk to the police and to file a
complaint, you can`t level these sort of allegations.

It was hard for me, and we had evidence. You can`t make these sort of
things allegations that live on forever, because look at the mess we`re in


HAYES: Liz Seccuro says that while the Rolling Stone story has set sexual
assault survivors back, she will keep fighting for accountability.

Still ahead, my interview with U.S. Education Secretary Arne Duncan.


HAYES: This is a very polarizing, controversial issue. Jeb Bush is going
to have to go to town hall in Iowa and defend himself in the face of people
who say this is Obamacare for education.



HAYES: OK, another very big anniversary happened yesterday, more
significant I would dare say, the 150th anniversary of the south`s
surrender at Appomattox, which more or less brought an end to the American
Civil War.

And here we are 150 years later with no end in sight to how strongly people
still react to the Confederate Flag, and more importantly, what it
represents to so many people. About 100 activists rallied against the Klu
Klux Klan yesterday in Tallahassee, Florida, according to the Tallahassee
Democrat, the rally came in response to leafletting of Leon and Jefferson
county neighborhoods with Traditionalist American Knights of the Ku Klux
Klan recruiting flyers last monght. And the arrest last week of two
Department of Corrections employees and one former employee linked to the
group in a plot to murder the black foreign inmate.

The activist burned a Confederal flag on the steps of the old capital,
which was fitting, because it was the veterans of the Confederate Army who
founded the Klan during reconstruction and udsed it as a terrorist
organization to murder the south back in the hands of white control

If only that surrender at Appomattox had been more enduring.


HAYES: Mark my words, the sleeper issue of the 2016 campaign is not
something anyone would have guesssed a few years ago. It`s not immigration
or abortion, it`s Common Core.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R) FLORIDA: We do not need a national Common Core
curriculum that the federal government uses and forces on our states.

DONALD TRUMP, BILLIONAIRE: Common Core is bad. Bad.

GOV. BOBBY JINDAL, (R) LOUISIANA: We must repeal Common Core.

money and give the states the flexibility to use that money as they see
hit, not how Arne Duncan sees fit.


HAYES: Republican 2016 hopefuls are lining up against the voluntary
national education standards with one very notable exception: Jeb Bush who
steadfastly supports the guidelines and has encouraged their national

But it`s not just Republican politicians that are coming out strong against
Common Core: parents, teachers and students are in open revolt against the
standardized tests that have come out of the guidelines or have been
tailored to fit them, which have been adopted by 43 states. And that puts
them directly in conflict with the Obama administration, which has urged
states to adopt the voluntary standards as part of its Race to the Top

I got a chance to sit down with one of Common Core`s biggest advocates, the
man who crafted Race to the Top, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan. And
that interview is next.


HAYES: Much of the controversy over Common Core has been due to its
conflation with a controversy over high stakes testing, the type of testing
spawned by No Child Left Behind which linked school funding to testing and
testing results.

I sat down with the Secretary of Education Arne Duncan. And I asked him
what, if anything, was achieved in the 13 years since President Bush signed
that bill into law.


ARNE DUNCAN, U.S. SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: The one thing that did work was
the focus on achievement gaps and looking at are black children improving
each year or not, the Latino what`s happening there. But No Child Left
Behind is fundamentally broken. I lived on the other side of the law when
I led the Chicago public schools. It`s been broken for a while. Sadly,
congress has been dysfunctional as well. So we`ve done is we`ve partnered
directly with states to provide wavers and provide flexibility to move away
from the most onerous, the most disappointing parts of the law.

HAYES: But on the equity, my reading of the data -- and obviously one of
the issues here is there are so much data, there are so many statistics you
can find things that are good and things that are discouraging, so it`s
sort of this soup, right.

My reading of the data is that at this basic level, we`re talking about
testing gap and we`re talking about issues of equity, we have not seen much
of a narrowing at all, certainly not the narrowing that we were promised
back in 2001.

DUNCAN: No, we have a long way to go. And I say every single day how far
we have to go. Te fact of the matter is, we have seen gains over the past
20, 30 years, but we are not getting better fast

And again, at its heart, this law has to be about equity. And so what
we`re pushing very hard in congress, put politics, put ideology aside, you
know, Democrats, Republicans have to work together, this law has to focus
on early childhood education, that has never been in there. That`s the
best investment we can make to level the playing field and give every
single child, particularly disadvantaged children, a chance in life.

And we have bring more resources, more dollars to poor communities and to

And in too many states, the children of the wealthy get more spent on them
and the children
of the poor get less spent on them. The children who need the most get the

So we think there`s a chance for congress to fix this law. Have a huge
focus in equity. That is so critically important.

HAYES: I want to talk about Common Core for a second, becuase it`s -- are
you surprised by how controversial Common Core, which is kind of a fairly
obscure issue, how much of a lightning rod it`s become?

DUNCAN: It`s actually very simple. The goal is to have high standards.
And what we saw, Chris, udnerneath -- under No Child Left Behind, and this
was horrible, we had about 20 states dummy down standards, reduce
standards, to make politicians look good. And what happens then is kids
are working hard and think they`re on track to go into college and be
successful, far too often they weren`t even close and they would graduate
and they would have to take remedial classes. They wren`t prepared and
burned through financial aid. It was one of the worst things that

So what you saw was tremendous leadership from governors and educators in
many, many places saying we have to stop lying to children. We have to be
honest here. Let`s have true college
and career ready standards for every single child.

HAYES: So when you describe it that way, it sounds like OK, well that
seems like sort of a common sense notion. But then to go back to my
original question, this is a very polarizing, controversial issue.

I mean, Jeb Bush is going to have to go to town hall in Iowa and defend
himself in the face of people who say that this is Obamacare for education.

DUNCAN: It`s only polarizing to the politicians that you talk to. If you
talk to parents, if ou talk to real parents....

HAYES: I disagree. I strongly disagree.

DUNCAN: Well, let me just say -- if you talk to parents and say do you
want your children to be truly college and career ready, do you want them
to be able write well, do want them to be able to think critically, do you
want them to have a real chance in life through education, the overwhelming
majority of paretns say that`s exactly what we want.

HAYES: That`s right. But if you go in and you say, what parents are
getting -- and it`s happening from New York to Louisiana to California,
their kid comes home with some homework or they go to some test, they`re
stressing, and in their head, the thing that is the source of their kid`s
anxiety is Common Core. That is what has happened is that Common Core has
come to be the name for all testing related stress.

DUNCAN: So there`s misinformation, there`s whatever. Again, it`s being
high standards are being implemented with differing degrees of success or
not. And so we need to work with parents
and communicate very carefully with them and work with students.

I`ll just give you a quick example. Tennessee was one of the states that
arguably had the lowest
standards in the nation. They were given an F, it was embarrassing. And
when they raised standards, theywent from saying -- my numbers won`t be
exact, but saying about 91 percent of fourth graders
were proficient in math to like 30 something. So from 90 to 30-something.

Children weren`t any less smart, they just were finally telling the truth.
And from that point, them having the courage, first the Democratic
governor, and then a Republican governor, to raise the bar, Tennessee is
now the fastest improving state in the nation. That`s the kind of progress
we need.

HAYES: I want you to respond something Ted Cruz said. He said we should
repeal every word of Common Core. We should get the federal government out
of the business of curriculum.

DUNCAN: He`s already one. We`re not in the business of curriculum. In
fact, we`re prohibited. There`s nothing to repeal.

HAYES: The last thing on Common Core, from a Democratic standpoint, right,
I mean, if you say to me we should have high standards, they should be
universal so that we don`t have this gaming, all this sounds...

DUNCAN: We never said universal. So you have many states we`re working
with who are doing their own thing. But our only question is, have your
local universities there say that if students are hitting this bar they
don`t have to take remedial classes.

So the goal here is not common, the goal here is high.

HAYES: But there is a question of like who makes those standards, right?

DUNCAN: Absolutely.

HAYES: And I think part of the concern is or part of the fear is that some
nefarious actor somewhere is making them.

DUNCAN: Again, this is where the truth is important. And there`s no
nefarious actors. This has been led at the local level on a voluntary
basis by governors from both parties, fantastic teachers and educators who
said our children deserve better than what we`ve done.

HAYES: All right, finally, I want to ask you about higher education.
There`s a for profit school
called Corinthian. It was a disaster. The federal government essentially
cut it off from access to federal loans. It has left people with thousands
of dollars of debt, while going under and not really giving them much to
show for it.

You have nine attorneys general calling on the Department of Education to
forgive those student loans. Should the department do that?

DUNCAN: So, we`re looking at this stuff very closely. And just to be very
clear, way before this, we had difficult battles with congress. We put in
place something called gainful employment. This was to all for-profits
accountable. we took tremendous heat from both sides of the aisle, quite

HAYES: It was one of the best things that this Department of Education --
no, I`m serious, it was politically risky and it was one of the most
impressive things.

DUNCAN: It`s the right thing to do.

But we continue to be very concerned with these issues. We have met with
some of these young people as recently as the past two weeks. And we`re
going to continue to look at this very closely and see what the right thing
is to do, not just in this situation, but more broadly.

HAYES: I mean, that`s a non-answer. But your answer is you are looking
into whether you should.

DUNCAN: We`re looking at this very, very closely and again talking to
young people who
have been negativity impacted. And for me, it`s not just about those
individuals, it`s about where you have bad actors for far too long, they
were allowed to do just what they wanted. We have tried to be very, very
clear that we will not tolerate that. And whatever political pushback we
get, we`re fine with that.

HAYES: Arne Duncan, secretary of education, one of the originals, been in
there a while.

DUNCAN: Thank you so much.

HAYES: Great to see you, thanks a lot.


HAYES: All right, that is All In for this evening.



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