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All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, April 17th, 2015

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Date: April 17, 2015
Guest: Dave Weigel, Robert Reich, Michael Shelton


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Good to be back here in New



HAYES: The first big gathering of Republican hopefuls in New
Hampshire as the 2016 campaign gets under way.

Then, the first public interview with the Tulsa County volunteer
reserve deputy, who shot and killed an unarmed suspect.

ROBERT BATES: This is the second worst thing that ever happened to

HAYES: Plus, Sean Penn joins me to talk about his brand new
documentary on exposure to every day chemicals.

And the viral rant that got an ESPN reporter suspended.

BRITT MCHENRY, ESPN REPORTER: Cause I`m on television, and you`re in
a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) trailer honey.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

It is the first big weekend of campaigning and the first in the nation
primary state of New Hampshire. With every major GOP presidential hopeful
making their case in the Granite State, including at the first in the
nation Republican leadership summit in Nashua with a giant American flag as
their back drop.

Last night in what was perhaps the most ridiculous campaign moment
since all those reporters sprinted after Hillary Clinton`s van in Iowa,
journalists swarm around Jeb Bush when he abandoned his paleo diet to,
brace yourselves, eat some pie.




BUSH: To hell with the diet.



HAYES: It wasn`t all pie talk in New Hampshire, however.

Joining me now from Nashua, New Hampshire, David Weigel, reporter from
Bloomberg Politics.

David, I feel like this week is like -- it`s really -- it`s happening.
I`m watching events, I`m seeing -- we`ve gotten our feeds come in. And the
thing that happens on campaigns which is that, candidates particularly in
the Republican primary, which is contested, have to be very accessible all
the time, that`s happening.

I mean, you`ve got candidates on the ground, they`re talking to
people. They`re talking to press. We`ve kind of started for real now.

DAVE WEIGEL, BLOOMBERG POLITICS: You are. You`re already seeing
people reset their narratives or start their narratives. Chris Christie,
for example, has been doing events all around this event. He was just in
Exeter, New Hampshire, in a pool hall, in exactly the environment he wants
to be in. Marco Rubio is making his debut in New Hampshire.

Things are getting taken seriously in a way they weren`t before. I
think, so far, what I`ve seen is exposing just how little Jeb Bush has
dominated the race so far because everyone sees an opening and they`re kind
of using this weekend to find out where the opening is.

HAYES: OK. I am genuinely I think the most interesting story is the
way Jeb Bush is campaigning. Here`s my theory. This is him today on
climate change. He basically says we have to get a sort of global -- some
sort of -- work with the rest of the world to negotiate a way to reduce
carbon emissions, all right? That is really, really outside the Republican
mainstream right now. Negotiate with the world, first of all, on anything,
is not super cool, to reduce carbon emissions also not cool.

And what it says, one, Bush is massively confident they`re going to
steam roll this field, that they have the money and the establishment
backing and these people are clowns and jokers and are going to do each
other in.

And number two, let`s remember, it was the Bush brain trust that ran
the last Republican presidential campaign and they ran it to the left on
compassionate conservatism back in 2000, coming off two years of a
successful Democratic presidency, and it`s so clear to me that Jeb Bush
playbook is the W playbook from `99/2000.

What do you think about that?

WEIGEL: I think that`s right but the game is different because
frankly some of the judges that George W. Bush ended up appointing to the
Supreme Court and changing campaign finance law. Jeb Bush now lives in a
world where Ted Cruz who the establishment, whatever we -- does not take
seriously can get a super PAC together that claims it will have $31 million
ready for him to go. George W. Bush faced nothing like that.

At this point in his run in 1999, he was clearing the field by raising
multiples of what everyone else had. I think he also had a weaker field to
start with. He was running against Elizabeth Dole, who was running against
John McCain, who peaked pretty late. I think we might have all
underestimated because of Chris Christie`s problems, because of Marco
Rubio`s heresy with the bases, underestimate that these guys under the new
campaign finance laws can become credible in a hurry.

HAYES: And not only can they become credible. I think the really
interesting to look for in this cycle, which is true and changed by a
number of things, particularly Citizens United, is momentum and timing,

So, when you go back to 2000, you`re totally right, the way W cleared
the field is they posed massive numbers and everyone got scared, not unlike
what happened on the Hillary Clinton on the Democratic side, although
they`re not posting numbers, everyone assumes it will be a behemoth.

But the other thing is, in the world of essentially boutique
billionaires backing you, you can hang around, and stay in a race losing
one, two, three, four, five, six early states.

WEIGEL: Yes, what we`re seeing in this event, too, is some of the
effects of 2012 that irritated the establishment, that they`ve really
worked to prevent this time of guys who being famous on FOX News and being
taken seriously by the base, that`s not over. I mean, you`ve see George
Pataki being followed around by people for autographs. You`ve seen that
with John Bolton.

All of those people are going to choose to put stakes in New Hampshire
and they`re not going to go away or being flattened by money the way that
they have been in years past. This looks a bit more like what happened
with Mitt Romney in 2011/2012 when he built what he thought was an
advantage, and the new rules just didn`t allow it. Plus, the Republican
base had moved so far to the right they were demanding more from their
candidates, that`s lead to several insurgents rising.

HAYES: Yes, that`s right.

WEIGEL: And I think that`s a happening -- a version is happening

HAYES: It also led to Mitt Romney advocating self-deportation,
severely conservative, embracing the Ryan budget, all of which came back to
bite him in the general, and I think Jeb Bush and his people understand

Dave Weigel, thank you very much.

WEIGEL: Thank you.

HAYES: Chris Christie has been campaigning in New Hampshire, as Dave
just said, for most of the week in what appears to be an attempt to rebut
the widely held view he is too damaged by scandal to mount a serious
presidential run. On Thursday, the sitting New Jersey governor got some
attention when he called for reducing Social Security benefits for seniors
earning more than $80,000 a year, as well as eliminating those for those
more than $200,000, raising as well the retirement age for social security
from 67 to 69, and increasing the age when seniors qualify for Medicare
from 65 to 67.


CHRISTIE: Frankly, Washington is afraid to have an honest
conversation about Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid with the people
of our country. I am not.


HAYES: Meanwhile, Mike Huckabee, who has been encouraging speculation
he`ll be entering the race, including during a much-hyped appearance today
on FOX News, this morning assailed the position held by Christie and many
Republicans, including Jeb Bush, saying that when it comes to cuts in
Social Security and Medicare, his response is not just no but it`s "you
know what" no.

Now, this is a very important split in the GOP, one that may offer a
huge opportunity for Hillary Clinton, if she is the Democratic presidential
nominee. That`s because while the Republican donor class Chris Christie is
courting loves the idea of cuts to entitlement programs, most of the
Republican base, which is made of disproportionately of seniors does not.
Huckabee, who you recall, won the GOP Iowa caucuses in 2008 understands
where the base is, which is why even as he plays to the far right on issues
like gay rights and abortion, he`s breaking with much of his party`s donor
class on Social Security and Medicare.

He knows, as FiveThirtyEight points out, that the politics of
Christie`s social security plan are atrocious. In 2013, 58 percent of
Republicans over the age of 50 were opposed to raising the age of
eligibility on Social Security, according to a poll from the "Associated
Press", which means that in New Hampshire, more than half of primary voters
are 50, his stance doesn`t seem to be doing him any favor.

Joining me now, former secretary of labor, Robert Reich.

The politics of earned benefits or entitlements, whichever you want to
call them, Social Security, Medicare, are really fascinating on the right,
because the donor class loves nothing more than to talk about, quote,
"reform", cuts, raising eligibility age. But if you look at who the
Republican primary voters are, they hate it. Mike Huckabee knows that, and
I think that`s a huge wedge issue opportunity for the Democrats.

fact, not only is this a wedge issue for the Democrats, but it is a
potential split between the donor class of the Republican Party, and the
grassroots of the base of the Republican Party. It also is lousy policy
because raising the eligibility age as Christie wants and Jeb Bush is
talking about as well for Social Security is very regressive because the
working class and the poor of America, frankly, if you look at the
statistic, they don`t live as long as the wealthy, so they`re not going to
collect as much Social Security if you raise the eligibility age and also a
lot of working people, they have -- you know, their bodies are subjected to
a lot stress. And so, it`s hard on them to raise the eligibility age.

What Hillary Clinton can do is do completely the opposite. She can
acknowledge that because of widening inequality, a lot of working class
people don`t have enough Social Security and we ought to actually raise
Social Security benefits instead of getting in this debate about whether we
should cut them.

HAYES: That`s exactly right. Elizabeth Warren has proposed raising
Social Security benefits, other members of the Democratic who have
supported that. That strikes me as the way to go on offense on this issue
and really press the advantage politically. I also think it`s
substantively good policy.

REICH: Not only is it good policy but can you do it by raising the
cap on the portion of income subjected to Social Security payroll taxes,
which is now $116,000. You raise that cap, make the whole system more
progressive in terms of having the rich pay more or even the upper middle
class pay more, and that allows you to expand Social Security without
raising the eligibility age. It`s a perfect both policy issue and also
political issue for the Democrats and for Hillary Clinton.

HAYES: So, there`s a wedge issue that`s happening on the Democratic
side and I want to get your take on it. It sort of became a little bit of
a campaign issue today. Martin O`Malley came out and basically critiqued
the transpacific partnership, the massive trade deal being negotiated and
the fast track authority, which would essentially have Congress allowing
the executive to negotiate the bulk of the deal and just kind of an up-or-
down vote.

Hillary Clinton then was I think somewhat forced -- her spokesperson
put out a statement vaguely kind of saying, you know, not favoring it or
coming out against it but here are the benchmarks by which we evaluate this

How do you understand both the politics and policy of this?

REICH: Well, the public doesn`t really understand the transpacific
yet. But it will very soon because it`s coming up in the next two or three
weeks, maybe earlier. And it`s a lousy deal for American workers. It`s
sort of NAFTA on steroids.

I think Hillary Clinton doesn`t want to take a stand, but she`s going
to be pushed to take a stand because it`s going to be more and more
visible. Very smart for O`Malley to take a stand against it. It is on the
side of workers. If Hillary Clinton wants to be -- you know, the champion
of working class Americans, she`s going to have to be against this, it`s
abominable. I mean, it really is, if you look at it, Chris, we can get
into the details if you want, but if you look at it, it`s a terrible thing
for average working people.

HAYES: We are going to be combing through it more in the weeks to
come. I think it`s also a testament to just what a little bit of primary
contention can do. Martin O`Malley hasn`t even declared, he`s got one
thing on this and you see the Clinton campaign at least coming out of a
statement. Imagine what a contested primary would do in terms of shaking
this stuff out.

Robert Reich, always a pleasure, sir. Thank you.

REICH: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Check out his documentary, "Inequality for All" when you get a

All right. The Tulsa reserve deputy who killed a man after using his
gun instead of his taser speaks out publicly for the first time.


BATES: This is the second worst thing that`s ever happened to me, or
the first, that`s ever happened to me in my life.


HAYES: Plus, actor Sean Penn will join me to talk about his
documentary "The Human Experiment."


HAYES: If you missed our epic "Star Wars" movie trailer play by play
last night, you can see it on our Facebook page at We posted our "Hillary Clinton for
Millennial" series, too. You know, if you`re looking for some fun stuff to
watch on a Friday night after you`re done watching this show, of course.
You don`t need to thank us. Just give the page a like while you`re there
and that`s thanks enough.


HAYES: A 73-year-old reserve deputy who shot and killed an unarmed
man in a police sting earlier this month is speaking out about the incident
for the first time. Roberts Bates was charged this week with second degree
manslaughter and released on bond Tuesday morning for the fatal shooting of
44-year-old Eric Harris on April 2nd.

Bates spoke exclusively to NBC News about the incident today.


MATT LAUER, NBC NEWS: You were not supposed to be actively involved
in the arrest of Mr. Harris, you were supposed to provide support from
several blocks away but did you get involved in the struggle. You write in
your written statement that you were not sure whether he was armed and you
say that you saw, quote, a brief opening to use your taser to subdue him.
Take me back to that moment.

BATES: Matt, I was actually parked down the street at the Sinclair
station several blocks away from where the activity took place, in other
words, the drug buy of dope and the gun purchased. He decided to bolt from
the undercover`s truck and run and he came to me and two other cars that
were in front.

I was the last car as I always am. I carried the equipment that the
deputies use to clear a scene, whatever, I`ve been involved in several
hundred of these. I do clean up when they`re done, I take notes, I take
photographs and that`s my job --

LAUER: And when you got involved in the struggle, Mr. Bates, did any
of the other deputies or officers say help us, tase him, use your taser?

BATES: No, Matt. I yelled, "taser, taser" as required in training.


HAYES: Bates who can be heard saying "I shot him, I`m sorry", told
NBC`s Matt Lauer that he regrets the incident.


BATES: First of all, let me apologize to the family of Eric Harris.
This is the second worst thing that`s ever happened to me or first, ever
happened to me in my life. I had cancer a number of years ago. I didn`t
think I was going to get there. Luckily I was able to go to a hospital
where I had hours of surgery. I rate this as number one on my list of
things in my life that I regret.


HAYES: The volunteer reserve deputy told investigators he thought he
was firing his taser rather than his personal fire arm when he went, in his
words, to subdue Harris.


LAUER: Would you stand up for me for one second and show me where on
your body when you are in your uniform, you are keep your taser and where
you keep your weapon, your revolver. Can you stand up and show me?

BATES: Sure. You bet. My taser is right here on the front tucked in
a protective vest. My gun itself is on my side, normally to the rear.

LAUER: And people are going to look at that, Mr. Bates, they`re going
to say how could you make this mistake? How could you think you were going
for your taser on your chest tucked into that vest and accidentally pull
your weapon?

BATES: Well, let me say this has happened a number of times around
the country. I have read about it in the past. I thought to myself after
reading several cases I don`t understand how this can happen. You must be
believe me, it can happen to anyone.


HAYES: In the wake of the fatal shooting, it`s been revealed that
Bates was a generous supporter of the Tulsa County sheriff`s office. There
have also been serious questions raised about Bates level of training and
about the Tulsa County volunteer program itself. Mainly, why as a
volunteer was Robert Bates allowed to participate in an undercover sting

The Tulsa county sheriff`s office said they`re launching an internal
review of their reserve program and now, a state legislator is launching an
independent investigation into the incident.

Joining me now is that state legislator, Representative Michael

Representative Shelton, let`s start with the reporting that has come
from "The Tulsa World" on the training records. They reporting that
supervisor were told to falsify reserve deputy records. Mr. Bates denied
that in his interview today with Matt Lauer. It seems like something we`ve
been unable to confirm independently at NBC that should be determined,
because if that`s the case, we`re talking about criminal liability by the
county and if it`s not the case, they should be cleared about that, don`t
you think?

STATE REP. MICHAEL SHELTON (D), OKLAHOMA: Absolutely. Let me, first
of all, thank you for bringing the attention to this issue that you have.
I think you`re exactly right.

And that`s why I`ve called for an independent investigation by our
attorney general, by our Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigation to be eyes
on the outside. Because, first of all, I don`t think that you can
investigate yourself. But, secondly, with all the little things that are
connected to this issue, such as possible training tampering, possible --
at the relationship between Mr. Glanz and the reserve deputy, it is so
important that the community, the taxpayers and the citizens know that the
information going to the D.A.`s office is fair and ensure that it is not
bias towards anybody, that they deserve the truth.

HAYES: Yes. I think -- I`m curious to get your sense of local
reaction to this story because I think it`s obviously become kind of a
national sensation, partly because we have this video, partly because I
think a lot of people think to themselves -- well, I don`t know if I think
that a 73-year-old insurance broker should be involved in a sting and how
did this all come to happen? When Mr. Bates was asked by Matt Lauer this
morning about whether he was essentially a play cop, this was his response,
take a listen.


LAUER: Mr. Bates, in the wake of this incident, you have been
portrayed as a wealthy and generous supporter of the sheriff`s department
and a close friend of the sheriff, who has been rewarded for your financial
support with the opportunity, and this is what`s out there, to play cop and
carry a gun. Is that a fair characterization?

BATES: That is unbelievably unfair. I have donated equipment as I
saw fit. When the need happened to arise to allow the task force and other
areas of the sheriff`s office to better do their jobs on the street of


HAYES: Representative Shelton, my question to you is should the Tulsa
County sheriff immediately suspend the reserve deputy program?

SHELTON: I can`t speak specifically on if he should suspend that
program because I`m sure not everybody fits the mold of the deputy. More
importantly, there are other reserve deputies across the state of Oklahoma
that do just fine.

More importantly, we need to make sure that a 73-year-old person that
may be helping the -- helping the sheriff`s department is in the right
position. He should not be out there with the fear of something like what
occurred -- he shouldn`t be out on the street doing that because liability
is on the citizens. Most likely if this goes to court, civil court, the
citizens ultimately will fall prey to a liability lawsuit and our tax
dollars are going to be used to do it. He should have been reassigned to
do what I believe a reserve cop should do.

But let me even draw attention to a couple other things. I think it`s
important to understand that this kind of incident has happened across the
state of -- has happened across the state of Oklahoma in different
instances. We got one young man right now laying in a hospital bed in the
city of Tulsa that was shot by a security guard.

Not long ago, we`ve had multiple police shootings. So this helps us
bring attention to all that`s happening across the state.

We had a gentleman killed in Moore, Oklahoma. His name is Luis
Rodriguez, killed by five police officers. And it`s important that we
bring attention to this and we need fair justice for everybody.

HAYES: Oklahoma State Representative Michael Shelton, thank you for
your time tonight.

SHELTON: Thank you.

HAYES: All week, we`ve been bringing you our special in-depth series
"Hillary Clinton for Millennials", where we`ve been exploring the many non-
troversies she`s had to deal with over the years, and if you missed any of
them, you`re in luck. One of our favorites is next.



REPORTER: Clinton and gore are setting the trend. It`s in to be
serious about issue and legions of policy obsessed young people are
arriving in Washington. There`s even a name for them, wonks.

REPORTER: You know what a wonk is?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. I have no idea.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A wonk is a short little white guy with glasses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A wonk is an owlish guy in a suit with thick
glasses who never smiles. This town is filled with wonks. They`ve always
been here. We`ve just never had a name for them. We used to call them


HAYES: Might have been common wisdom at the time that the Clinton
presidency was ushering a new hour of nerd cool in our nation`s Capitol in
1993 but even a younger, wonkier Washington wasn`t prepared for the first
lady to take the lead on major policy initiative.

Now that Hillary Clinton has officially hit the 2016 campaign trail,
we here at ALL IN have been educating the youngest voters among us on the
pseudo-scandals and nontroversies of the Clinton `90s, with a new series
"Hillary Clinton for Millennials". Here is a reprise of one of our
favorite episodes this week.


REPORTER: During the campaign one of Bill Clinton`s slogans was "buy
one get one free." Americans are already getting their money`s worth.
Hillary Clinton is on the job.

HAYES (voice-over): The year, 1993. America had a new president
ready to fix stuff. Bill Clinton had campaigned on health care reform, but
needed someone to lead his efforts to fix a broken system. Who would help
bring America back from the brink?

Tonight`s episode, "The Hillarycare Wars."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When President Clinton named his health care task
force, Hillary Clinton was in the front row, that`s because Clinton put her
in charge.

HAYES: Hillary Clinton, with a top-notch resume, a sterling legal
career, and experience leading education reform in Arkansas was tapped with
leading the White House`s health care reform
legislation, a bill that would guarantee every American health insurance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Clintons are taking on the doctor, the trial
lawyers, the hospitals and the insurance industry. They know that what
they`re proposing is nothing short of a health care revolution.

HAYES: But not everyone was on board with the revolution`s messenger.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We elected Bill Clinton, not Hillary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think she has a little bit too much power for
the president`s wife.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the lady has been handed an impossible
task in an impossible time.

UNIDNETIFIED FEMALE: The power she has bothers me a lot.

HAYES: Initially both the public and elected officials thought some
type of reform was inevitable.

BOB DOLE, FRM. SENATOR: I think the president and Mrs. Clinton and
others in the administration have done a pretty good job. We haven`t
agreed on anything yet, but my view again it`s an area we can work
together. It`s the biggest single issue we`ve had in this country for 40,
50 years.

HAYES: That fall, the first lady went before congress to present the

CLINTON: Americans can no longer wait for health care reform.

HAYES: Publicly, those who opposed reform expressed a willingness to

DICK ARMEY, FRM. SENATOR: And while I don`t share the chairman`s joy
at our holdings hearings on a government run health care system, I do share
his intention to make the debate and the legislative process as exciting as

CLINTON: I`m sure you will do that, Mr. Armey.

ARMEY: We`ll do the best we can.

CLINTON: You and Dr. Kevorkian I think, right?

ARMEY: Oh, oh!

HAYES: But then things took a turn.

Enter the special interest groups.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This was covered under our old plan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yeah, that was a good one wasn`t it?

ANNOUNCER: Things are changing and not all for the better.

HAYES: The Health Insurance Association of America came out with an
that would ultimately help sink the Clinton plan.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When they chose.


HAYES: Hillary fought back.

CLINTON: Now they have the gall to run TV ads that there is a better
way, the very industry that has brought to us the brink of bankruptcy
because of the way that they have financed health care.

HAYES: But that created an opening for opponents.

having the used car salesman take you for a drive around the block and you
sort of love the afternoon and the convertible top is down and it feels
good and then you get back and have a mechanic look under the hood.

HAYES: The barrage of negative publicity eventually soured public
opinion. The 1,300 page
plan drew derision from all sides and ultimately died in a Democratic

GEORGE MITCHELL, FRM. SENATOR: There`s no way in the world a bill of
this magnitude can pass precisely as proposed.

HAYES: The Clintons abandoned their plans for health care reform.
And it would take two decades for reform to become a reality after an
equally brutal fight. For Hillary, of course, knew all along what that
kind of fight would look like.

CLINTON: It says eventually we are all going to die.

BILL CLINTON: Under the Clinton health plan? You mean after Bill and
Hillary put all those new bureaucrats and taxes on us, we`re still all
going to die? I`ve never been so frightened in all my life.

HILLARY CLINTON: Me neither, Harry.

BILL CLINTON: There`s got to be a better way.


HAYES: If you want to catch up on Hillary Clinton for Millennials,
just head over to All In with Chris Facebook page where you`ll find all
four episodes. And while you`re there, why don`t you go ahead and give us
a like.

I`m asking again.

Still ahead, the viral video that got an ESPN reporter suspended and
set the Internet on fire.


BRIT MCHENRY, ESPN: Maybe if I was missing some teeth they would hire



HAYES: ESPN suspended reporter Britt McHenry for a week after a video
emerged of an interaction she had with a towing company attendant in
Arlington, Virginia after having her car towed earlier this month.

It should be noted the video is edited. So, we don`t know if it shows
the whole picture, but it does not reflect too well on McHenry to say the


MCHENRY; I`m in the news, sweetheart. I will (EXPLETIVE DELETED) sue
this play.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, that`s fine. And I`ll play your video. So
careful. I`ll play the video...

MCHENRY: That`s why I have a degree and you don`t. I wouldn`t work
at a scumbag place like this. It makes my skin crawl even being here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, let`s get you out of here.

MCHENRY: Yep, that`s all you care about is just taking people`s money
with no education, no skill set, just wanted to clarify that.

Do you feel good about your job? So I could be a college dropout and
do the same thing? Why, because I have a brain and you don`t?

Maybe if I was missing some teeth they would hire me, huh?


MCHENRY: Oh like yours? Cause they look so stunning. Because I`m on
television and our in a (EXPLETIVE DELTED) trailer, honey.

Lose some weight, baby girl.


HAYES: She later posted an apology on Twitter, quote, "in an intense
and stressful moment, I allowed my emotions to get the best of me and said
some insulting and regrettable things. As frustrated as I was, I should
always choose to be respectful and take the high road. I am so sorry for
my actions and will learn from this mistake."

The video set the Internet aflame when it surfaced yesterday. I
myself got into a protracted battle on Twitter about McHenry`s behavior,
the merits of her punishment, what it all said.

And while there`s a consensus, I think, a robust consensus, that she
acted appallingly, McHenry
does have her defenders who point out the towing company, Advanced Towing,
has an "F" rating from the Better Business Bureau, once tried to tow a car
with two kids still inside. As bad as that may be, however, it`s well not
an excuse for how she treated a fellow human being.

Joining me now Dorie Clark, a branding and PR consultant who is also a
spokesperson for Howard Dean`s presidential campaign. Your reaction to
this video.

DORIE CLARK, PR CONSULTANT: I think that actually a week`s punishment
is not going to end up being enough. I think that the Internet has been
lit on fire so much, it would not surprise me if within a few days she

HAYES: OK. That is a descriptive judgment, right, as opposed to a
normative one. Now that is a prediction about how people will react. What
do you think should happen? What is justice here?

CLARK: I actually think that it is a fireable offense. First of all,
ESPN has the right to determine who their brand ambassadors should be. And
clearly in this case we have someone who is acting in an incredibly
haughty manner. It doesn`t reflect well on their brand. And I think that
distancing themselves makes a world of good sense.

HAYES: Yeah, I think the reason -- so, I have a lot of thoughts about
this. One of the things is -- on the substance of what she says, right,
the reason that people find it so odious is people lose their
temper. We`ve seen freakouts, even the Christian Bale, the famous
Christian Bale viral video where he lost it on the set. And you can see
someone losing it, right, and that`s I think we all view that as more
forgivable than kind of like calm cruelty. And the cruelty is also like
your weight, the way you look, your degree, like all these like really
disgusting, snobby garbage sort of things that are said, right.

The other question, though, I have about this is just like the role
that the fact that everything is on video plays in the way that we all now
know everything about everyone, right.

I mean, presumably there has been people doing this kind of thing all
over the place forever and just not getting caught on video.

CLARK: Yeah, the tiinternet is the great equalizer. We now have an
opportunity to see people as they really are. And people probably should

HAYES: But that`s the question, right, that is the question is like
are people -- is someone in a horrible moment as they really are? And I
don`t want to like minimize the horribleness of that moment, right, but
it`s like -- I had no idea -- I literally had no idea who Britt McHenry was
before yesterday. She probably had no idea who I am and I`m sure that
there`s lots of people that end up in the public eye in their worst moment,
right, and there`s a sense that we all have that we have, quote, seen how
they really are and I just don`t know if that`s true, right?

CLARK: If your worst moment, Chris, is someone towing your car,
that`s a problem in and of itself. This is not a high stress situation,
this is a situation of annoyance. And for her to be so cruel in a
sustained fashion, as you said, I think shows the world can forgive a crime
of stupidity. It is very hard to forgive a crime of malice, as this was.

HAYES: So, you think -- and you think they`re justified in suspending
and possibly firing her?

CLARK: I absolutely do.

HAYES: Here`s my -- I basically, you know all these people who work
for public facing place like ESPN, right, they all have what`s called
morality clauses in their contract, which is this big kind of opening to
get fired for something like that, right?

That said, my concern is how these norms work their way down the labor
market, right? So someone who has got an Instagram post that their boss
seen, you`re fired, right. Most people are at-will employees. And so
there -- it becomes this question of when is what do you do outside work
relevant to your employer, particularly in the panopticon world of social
media where everything you do is going to be seen and posted by someone?

CLARK: It`s true. We`re all under heightened scrutiny these days. I
think the real question is what is the line? If there is someone who is an
ambassador for a large company, like ESPN, you want that person to be
likable, relatable, OK, we can understand. If Britt McHenry was an
accountant at a small firm, should she be fired for that?

HAYES: Let me tell you this, if she was an accountant for a small
firm and that went viral that, video, she would absolutely get fired for
it. I guarantee you. And I think that`s the thing that I kind of worry
about ultimately.

Dorie Clark, thank you for coming in.

Sean Penn is going to be here to talk about his new documentary on our
exposure to every day
chemicals ahead.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t even know what`s in our furniture, what
in our cleaning
supplies, what`s in our shampoos, our body washes, our lotions, our make-
up. If you`re not outraged, you`re not paying attention to what the hell
is going on.



HAYES: An Irish woman along with her two friends set out last month
to find their own dopplegangers by way of social media. They called the
campaign twin strangers, posting their photos on social media and asking
people to help them find their lookalikes.

Just two weeks into the contest, 26-year-old Niev Jeannie (ph) hit the
jackpot. She met up with doppleganger who just so happened to live about
an hour away. After changing into similar clothes and makeup the results
were pretty incredible.

The contest is still going on to the end of the month. So who knows,
maybe Niev will find someone who looks even more like her if that`s even

Now people are always telling me recently that I look like James
Wesley, he the character in "Dare Devil." Personally, I don`t really see
it. I do think I`m a dead ring for the Vinklevoss`s twins long lost third


HAYES: In the coming days, a jury will decide whether Dzhokhar
Tsarnaev should be sentenced to death in his role in the Boston Marathon
bombing two years ago. Now, the parents of the bombing`s youngest victim,
8 year old Martin Richard, are asking the Justice Department to take the
death penalty off the table.

Their plea appears on the front page of today`s Boston Globe. In an
op-ed, William and Denise
Richard describe the anguish they have felt since the tragedy, not only
burying their son but also carrying for a young daughter maimed in the

Quote, "we know the government has its reasons for seeking the death
penalty, but the continued pursuit of that punishment could bring years of
appeals and prolong living the most painful day of our lives."

It`s incredibly rare for the federal government to administer the
death penalty. One of the last people to be executed for a federal crime
was the man behind one of the nation`s worst acts of domestic terrorism
Timothy McVeigh. Now this Sunday marks 20 years since the Oklahoma City

On the morning of April 19, 1995, McVeigh parked a rented truck in
front of the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in downtown Oklahoma City.
At 9:02 a.m. that truck exploded. The blast killed 168 people and injured
hundreds more.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As night fell on downtown Oklahoma City, the
search continued for victims of the car bombing that ripped through the
nine story federal building shortly after 9:00 this morning. More than 500
people were already in their offices and 35 to 40 children were in a day
care center on the second floor.


HAYES: For 21 children at the day care that morning, only 6 of them
survived, one of them was 20-month-old Joe Weber. Here he is standing in
front of President Clinton a year after the tragedy. Today, he`s 21 years
old and bears a scar on his face from that day. He does not remember the
day`s event.


true. For the longest time I`ve just thought it`s a thing, you know, I`ve
been told this but often times I forget just how real it is.


HAYES: The grim reality of that day and the man behind the bombing is
the subject of a special one-hour documentary tonight presented by Rachel

MSNBC obtained 45 hours of audio tape interviews with McVeigh in which
he describes the planning and the motivations behind the terror attack.


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC ANCHOR: He begin business describing what drove
him to choose the Murrah building as his target.

TIMOTHY MCVEIGH, OKLAHOMA CITY BOMBER: There had to be at least two
law enforcement agencies in the building, criteria was vulnerable but
isolated from other buildings to minimize collateral damage.


HAYES: The McVeigh Tapes: Confession of an American Terrorist, airs
tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern. "



SEAN PENN, ACTOR: Most of these chemicals are not tested for their
safety because industry in America does not have to prove a chemical is
safe before it gets on to the market. Instead, like a defendant in an
American courtroom, a chemical is innocent until proven guilty.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The biggest concern that I have is our
astounding ignorance
really about the effects of most of the chemicals that are in commerce.

We don`t even know what`s in our furniture, what`s in our cleaning
supplies, what`s in our shampoos, our body washes, our lotions, our make-
up. If you`re not outraged, you`re not paying attention to what the hell
is going on.


HAYES: Actor and activist Sean Penn is out with a new documentary
about the chemicals we come into contact with every day. It`s called the
human experiment. It argues we are basically all test subjects for a
largely unregulated chemical industry.

The film is now playing in select theaters and on iTunes and other
video streaming platforms.

And joining me now is Sean Penn, the film`s narrator and executive
producer, and co-director
Don Hardy.

Mr. Penn, how did you get involved in this project? What made you
want to work on this film?

PENN: Well, Don and his partner Dana Nockman (ph) and I had had some
prior films that we worked on together. When they brought this project, it
seemed sort of low hanging fruit of those things we are concerned with as
parents and citizens in a society where you`re -- the prevention is really
quite simple when it comes to the toxicology of illnesses that we bring
upon ourselves and pass on to our children and then expose in this.

So I think that like many of Don`s films and Dana`s (ph) films, this
one was another one that shined a light on something that really with any
education on what the -- the subject that there would be a lot of easy
activity to make change. And so I thought it`s imminently effective way to
do it with a documentary.

HAYES: Don, the documentary sort of tells a lot of anecdotal stories
about people with illnesses, that they have a difficult time sort of
divining the source, but there`s a sort of lack of data for making a causal
connection, and coming off the wake of the whole vaccine-autism debunked
link, there`s a certain that we leap to conclusions in the absence of
evidence. And I wonder what you think about that?

DON HARDY, FILMMAKER: Yeah, I think that`s a great question. I think
it`s really hard to
determine completely the what the causality is for any of the connection
between chemicals and their effects on human health. It`s a very difficult

But I think the worst thing we can do is fail to do anything at all.
And right now the testing on these products just isn`t done. And no
independent testing is really happening out there.

And so we just don`t know that these products are safe, and people
continue to use them and the incidents of disease continues to rise. And
many of the leading scientists out there that we spoke with really do
believe that there`s a link here and I think it just needs to just be
investigated further.

HAYES: Mr. Penn, it struck me watching this, this is obviously a
small project, you`re a co-executive producer on it, you`ve done similar
projects like this before.

Is it easier or harder now to make documentaries or make movies that
are feature films that you really believe in the quality of, is it easier
or harder now than when you first started your career several
decades ago?

PENN: Well, i think there are cyclic distribution challenges that
happen. We`ve seen it where documentaries have been able to perform very
well and other times when not. And in this case I think that the subject
is such that you don`t even make that judgment. You go forward with a
project like this because it seems of such vital importance and you know
that parents who love their children and others need this kind of
opportunity to see the things.

I think so much of what the problem is is that we are living in a
society where we believe that we are taken care of, where we believe that
federal agencies have the access to the testing and the ability to
legislate on our behalf. When we find out that in this day and age there`s
virtually no control and no transparency on the testing, then I think that,
you know, whether it be feature films doing it or documentary films, that
both have great value.

HAYES: Don, there`s this question about the burden of proof in the
track that we played before that Sean tracks, you know, this idea of is the
burden of proof on the chemical to prove it`s harmless or for the
government to prove it`s harmful to take it off? there`s some question
about legislation. There`s two different bills. There`s one by Udall and
Vitter and another by Boxer and Markey hat are working
their way through that would address this. Is there something -- is
congress essentially paying attention to this?

HARDY: Well, I think in a lot of ways it might be too early to tell.
It seems like one bill has the support largely of environmental and public
health organizations and the other one doesn`t. I think it`s over 450 of
those organizations have gone against the Udall-Vitter bill. And I think
that speaks volumes about it.

So, the best thing that can probably happen is to try to -- for people
that see this film, that care about this issue, to try to reach out to
their senator and ask them to change Udall-Vitter and make it a stronger
bill that will protect everybody, their families and friends.

HAYES: Mr. Penn, do you have other projects in this vein that you`re
thinking of down the road?

PENN: This is a question much better directed at Don because he`s
been so much the initiator
of the projects that we`ve done, he and Dana.


HARDY: Well, yeah. I mean, any -- if Sean can be here to help and be
in your corner, you know, it`s something we`d love to continue the
relationship if he`ll have us.

HAYES: Well, we`re making movie magic here live on set.

Sean Penn and Don Hardy, thank you both for joining us tonight. I
really appreciate it.

PENN; Thank you very much.

HAYES: All right.

That is All In for this evening.


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