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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Wednesday, April 15th, 2015

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Date: April 15, 2015
Guest: Jennifer Jacobs, DJ Dionne, Josh Barro, Jeanne Shaheen, Ziva
Branstetter, Andy Coats, Dan Smolen, Thomas Quinn

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC: That does it for us tonight, we will see you again
tomorrow, now it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good
evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Rachel, now you have me sitting
here wondering what I`m doing with all these extra fingers that --


I apparently don`t need.

MADDOW: Exactly, you know, I feel like, oh, gosh, I can`t be a senator
with ten --

O`DONNELL: Right --

MADDOW: He can do it with seven. I know, thanks for --

O`DONNELL: Thank you Rachel, thank you --

MADDOW: Thanks Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Well, Martin O`Malley took his first swipe at Hillary Clinton
today without, of course, actually mentioning her name. And the district
attorney who put Aaron Hernandez away for life will join me.

But first, there is a new report tonight from Oklahoma about the Reserve
Deputy who says he mistakenly shot and killed a suspect when he meant to
use his taser.

Sources inside the sheriff`s department are saying that the man did not
fulfill the training required to participate in arrests like that one.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In Tulsa, Oklahoma, 73-year-old Robert Bates was
formally charged with second degree manslaughter.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After he says, mistakenly he reached for his gun and
not his taser.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Robert Bates attorney says he didn`t think he should be
charged at all.

CLARK BREWSTER, ATTORNEY: A well-intentioned surgeon causes an injury that
takes the life of a patient, they don`t get charged with manslaughter.

analogy to the operating room, that`s wrong. That`s not what we call
criminal negligence.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty of murder in the first degree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Former Patriots star Aaron Hernandez was found guilty
of first degree murder --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the death of Odin Lloyd --

URSULA WARD, MOTHER OF ODIN LLOYD: My baby`s footprint is in my heart
forever, I love him dearly.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sentenced to life in prison without parole.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary Clinton wrapping up day two of her Iowa

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: I want to hear from people who
are on the front line.



Following the grateful dead or something, I don`t know.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is a moment of zealous, you know --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But Democrats and Hillary, Republicans have mayhem.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who is the Republican nominee likely to be?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, I don`t really care, I think they`re all

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Small gyrocopter piloted by a Florida postman caused
quite a scare today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming in for a landing on the lawn of the U.S. capital

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Reportedly protesting campaign finance laws.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m going to violate the night, no fly zone


O`DONNELL: The Tulsa world newspapers reporting tonight supervisors at the
Tulsa county sheriff`s office were ordered to falsify a reserve deputy`s
training records, giving him credit for field training he never took and
firearms certifications he should not have received.

At least three of Reserve Deputy Robert Bates` supervisors were transferred
after refusing to sign off on his state-required training, multiple sources
speaking on condition of anonymity told the world.

Robert Bates is, of course, the 73 the-year-old man who, in his role as a
volunteer reserve deputy, shot Eric Harris while he was being arrested and
handcuffed by Tulsa county deputies.

Eric Harris later died at the hospital.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, on your stomach, now!


Oh, I shot him, I`m sorry.



HARRIS: You didn`t -- you hear me?! I`m losing my breath.



O`DONNELL: Joining me now is Dan Smolen, the attorney for the family of
Eric Harris, Ziva Branstetter, the enterprise editor at the "Tulsa World".

And Andy Coats, dean of the University of Oklahoma College of Law and a
former district attorney of Oklahoma county and a former criminal defense

Ziva, I want to get to your report of tonight about the possible falsifying
of the training records of this reserve deputy. Tell us what you know
about that.

we started hearing, Lawrence, like one day after the shooting.

So multiple sources had called us, they were afraid to speak with their
names, but they had said that the training records for deputy Bates were
not accurate.

That he was not taking the training that he was recorded to have taken,
that supervisors who expressed concern, who refused to sign off were

This happened with the field training that they do with other officers,
this also happened with the firearms certification training, according to
our sources.

Today, we were able to get documents that corroborated this to the fullest
and we`re very, you know, confident that we have the information correctly.

The sheriff`s office says that they don`t know anything about this and that
the training records are accurate.

O`DONNELL: And Ziva, as I understand your report, he was qualified as what
they call advanced reserve, which allowed him to participate in virtually
everything that any of those regular sheriffs would do.

And there are other layers -- there are other levels of this that restrict
the participation of some of these people if they haven`t completed this

BRANSTETTER: Correct. So many states have this system of reserve
deputies, people who basically volunteer to help with things like crowd
control, you know, just sort of normal patrolling duties.

Deputy Bates was basically for all intents and purposes a regular deputy.
He was going on an undercover task force, and an agent of 73, which some
people have noted is kind of surprising.

And he was conducting, and according to his statement that we obtained
today, more than 100 undercover operations with this -- with this unit.

And so he -- according to the records we were given by the sheriff`s
office, had obtained 400 hours and more of training to do this.

Then the sources that we have talked to, the documents that we have
reviewed indicates that, that is very much in question.

The sheriff said two days ago that some of these firearms certification
records have been lost or destroyed and he`s still trying to figure out
where they are and if Deputy Bates actually was certified with his

O`DONNELL: Andy Coats, as a former prosecutor there in Oklahoma, are you
hearing any potential violations of law in what Ziva has been reporting?

ATTORNEY: Well, certainly.

If there`s a real can of worms in the sheriff`s office where they`re not
doing the training that sees -- particularly the reserve deputies should
have before you put them out on the street, I think that`s a serious
problem and they need to look at that.

I mean, all of these guys that are out there doing law enforcement work,
making arrests and involving themselves in undercover operations need to be
adequately and properly trained.

And if they`re not, it`s the fault of the sheriff and the sheriff`s staff
and maybe not the individuals.

O`DONNELL: Dan Smolen, what`s your reaction to this latest report, that
the certifications that have been claimed for this man may not, in fact,
have occurred?

DAN SMOLEN, ATTORNEY: It`s not surprising to me. In fact, Ziva mentions
that she had heard it the day after or two days after the shooting.

I have been hearing from our sources over the last 12 to 18 months that Mr.
Bates had been wielding his weapon at times unnecessarily on the streets of

And that there were good officers, good deputies at the sheriff`s office
that were genuinely concerned about the situation.

O`DONNELL: And are you filing a civil lawsuit in this case?

SMOLEN: Lawrence, right now, what we`re doing is, my office and the
attorneys in my office are investigating the facts surrounding the death of
Eric Harris.

And we have got an obligation to do due diligence and to investigate all
facts and look at any and all potential claims that could be brought.

Those claims would be claims against the sheriff himself and both his
official and individual capacity as potentially the board of county
commissioners who have allowed Sheriff Lance(ph), in our opinion, to
essentially run wild with the Sheriff`s Department.

O`DONNELL: And in a -- in a civil litigation like that, I -- it seems to
me that this possible falsification of training records would both be
highly relevant and a very high incentive for the other side to settle.

SMOLEN: Absolutely, and so right contacts(ph) absolutely would be, because
there`s another layer of liability above just the liability that attaches
to Mr. Bates for the wrongful shooting.

But this is a liability that attaches to the governmental entities. In
this case the sheriff`s office, for allowing deliberate indifference with
respect to the reserve deputy program.

O`DONNELL: Now, Ziva, I want to go to your report from yesterday, which
was quite striking about the sheriff`s office accepting the officers who
were on the scene who we see in the video have -- one has his knee on Mr.
Harris` head.

Saying -- their claim is we didn`t hear him say he was shot, and we didn`t
hear the shot. Let`s watch the video one more time so that we know what
we`re talking about and then we`ll go to your reporting of what they say
they did not hear at that time.

Let`s watch this one more time.



HARRIS: Oh, yes, shot me! he shot me --


HARRIS: He shot me! He shot me! --





HARRIS: Good -- God, oh God, oh, he shot me, I didn`t do --


HARRIS: He shot me, man, oh, my God!


HARRIS: You didn`t -- you hear me?! I`m losing my breath --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your breath, good thing in fact.


O`DONNELL: And Ziva, what did your reporting show about what those
officers now claim?

BRANSTETTER: They claim that they didn`t hear the shot, that they weren`t
aware that Eric Harris was shot. There is a consultant that the sheriff`s
office has brought in.

He gave a press conference that which he discussed a syndrome from which
law enforcement officers lose their hearing and their auditory capabilities
during a stressful situation.

However, that is definitely contradicted by their own information, that
Deputy Bates said taser, which is standard procedure when you`re going to
use a taser and the both -- the deputies at the scene got out of the way.

So they didn`t get tased. So there`s a lot of contradictions that we`ve
been putting out in reporting, we`re just trying to get to the truth, get
to the truth for the people at Tulsa and Oklahoma so that they can know
what happened.

O`DONNELL: We had Clark Brewster on the program last night. He is the
defense lawyer in this case. And he tweeted this last night about what the
other officers on the scene did and said.

He tweeted saying, "the language used by the officers, not Mr. Bates was
wrong and indefensible." Andy Coats, what`s your reaction to that?

COATS: Well, I`m not sure it`s all that relevant. The real question here
is what is the sort of culpable negligence of the guy that pulled the

I mean that`s your -- that`s the guy that you filed the criminal charges
on. That`s the one that you would decide whether you ought to try to send
to the penitentiary or not.

And it seems to me that that issue sets apart from what anybody heard or
saw or did. I mean, he pulled a gun and instead of his taser and shot the

And you have to decide whether that`s worth criminal sanctions.

O`DONNELL: I want to go to something else that Clark Brewster said last
night about a culpable negligence, which is part of the second degree
manslaughter charge.

Let`s listen to what he said about this last night, why he thinks that the
law doesn`t apply here.


BREWSTER: The statute doesn`t say negligence, it says culpable negligence.
And the case law interpreting that means some element of mens rea, some
recklessness, some act outside ordinary negligence.

It`s not a negligence statute, that would be a civil proceeding.


BREWSTER: That`s why I thought the DA made a mistake in feeling the
pressure from the media to charge this man.


O`DONNELL: I checked the Oklahoma case law today and got the jury
instruction on it, the -- from the uniform jury instructions.

It says this, "the term `culpable negligence` refers to the omission to do
something which a reasonably careful person would do."

Dan Smolen, it seems to me like this is not a trickily phrased manslaughter
statute at all, that jury instruction seems pretty simple.

SMOLEN: Yes, absolutely not, it`s very simple. And I do want to clarify,
Mr. Bates didn`t inadvertently pulled his revolver. He carried a 357
revolver from his patrol vehicle which was unmarked.

He has a bright yellow taser on his chest and he`s got a pistol in his
right hand. According to Mr. Bates` first statement, and his initial
statement, he had a pepper ball gun in his left hand that he used his right
hand to power the valve up with.

I`m curious how that happened. If Mr. Bates inadvertently grabbed his
pistol from his truck, not pulled it out right when the -- when this event
is taking place, but literally carries it from his truck, how that`s not

He walks up to the man with a 357 that he`s not certified to use and I
doubt any deputy, whether they`re reserve, advanced, special deputies are
ever certified to use a snub-nosed 357 revolver in the line of duty.

O`DONNELL: Andy Coats, quickly before we go, as an experienced prosecutor
there in Oklahoma, I don`t see any tricky language in this jury instruction
on culpable negligence.

Do you see any merit in what Clark Brewster was saying last night, that
culpable negligence is not met in this situation?

COATS: Oh, I think not. This could have been manslaughter one. You know,
it`s an act done without intending to kill somebody with a dangerous

You know, that`s enough. So the DA used some discretion in lowering it to
manslaughter two, because I think the culpable negligence is like reckless

It`s when you`re negligent, but you`re beyond what you do. When you pull a
gun out and point at it and pull the trigger, you ought to know what kind
of gun you got in your hand.

O`DONNELL: Yes, I made that point last night that I could see this charge
going up to a manslaughter one, but we will do more of this on another

Dan Smolen, Ziva Branstetter and Andy Coats, thank you all very much for
joining us tonight, really appreciate it.

SMOLEN: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thank you --


O`DONNELL: Coming up, we have additional dash cam video of that shocking
scene in Arizona where a police officer used his cruiser to run over an
armed suspect.

You will see more of what happened before the car hit the suspect. And the
district attorney in the Aaron Hernandez murder trial will join me.

Plus, the Democrat who is running or might be running against Hillary
Clinton took a swipe at her in a new video today, and Senator Jeanne
Shaheen introduced legislation today to put a woman on the $20 bill.

Tweet us who you think that should be. Senator Shaheen will join us later.


O`DONNELL: We now have more of the dash cam video from Arizona that shows
a police car running over an armed suspect. This shows more of what
happened before the police car actually hit the suspect.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don`t want to do this. You don`t want to do this.
I got a male, Hispanic male, he`s got a gun to his neck and he is now
walking southbound towards the next (INAUDIBLE), I`m staying back at a

Put the gun down! Just put the gun down! Give me a few unit coming from
Stockton North on the frontage road, keep everybody away.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arizona patrolling police.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, one round just went out into the sky, it`s
definitely unlocked now, it`s definitely loaded. Have units be prepared --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ten-four, is it the subject shooting or did you shoot?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Negative, I did not shoot. Unit right there, just
standoff, standoff. The gun is -- gun is loaded. Unit on Quintero Park,
stay off, oh! -- man down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four-three-five, we`re up for it --


O`DONNELL: Earlier tonight, Chris Hayes asked the police chief if the
officer who drove into the suspect made the right decision.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I absolutely believe it was the right thing to do. You
have a guy who is acting erratic, he is not obeying commands.

He has a high powered rifle, people say he wasn`t posing a threat, but he
absolutely, with that gun in his hand, he`s posing a threat to anybody that
he comes across and to the traffic that`s in the area.

He is a quarter mile away from the i-10, vehicles are going past there, all
he has to do is raise the weapon and start firing and you know, we`re at a
huge disadvantage.

He just steps away from -- 15 seconds away from entering one of the
businesses and if --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don`t do something and somebody gets hurt, then
clearly we`re answering a different question about why didn`t you save my
loved one?


O`DONNELL: Coming up, former Patriots star Aaron Hernandez is going to
spend the rest of his life in a prison that is so close to the stadium
where he used to play.

That he will be able to hear the cheering of Patriots fans from his cell
during every Patriots home game for the rest of his life. The district
attorney who put him in that prison cell will join me next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) 2013-9A3-A charges the defendant Aaron
Hernandez with murder -- what say you madam foreperson? Is the defendant
not guilty? Guilty of murder in the first degree or guilty of murder in the
second degree?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Guilty of murder in the first degree.


O`DONNELL: After seven days of deliberation today, jurors found former New
England Patriots tight-end Aaron Hernandez guilty of first degree murder.

As the law requires, Hernandez was immediately sentenced to life in prison
without the possibility of parole for the murder of 27-year-old Odin Lloyd
from Boston`s Dorchester neighborhood.

Odin Lloyd`s body was found at an industrial park near Hernandez`s home in
North Attleborough, Massachusetts.

He was convicted in a Bristol County courtroom in Fall River today and will
serve his life sentence at Cedar Junction Prison in Walpole, Massachusetts.

Where for the rest of his life, he will be able to hear the cheering of
69,000 Patriots fans during every home game because the Patriots stadium is
located within easy earshot of that prison.

Just before issuing her sentence, Judge Susan Garsh heard from the living
victims of this crime, the mother and sister of Odin Lloyd.


WARD: Odin was the backbone of the family. Odin was the man of the house.
Odin was his sister`s keeper.

After my daughter, Olivia had her daughter, Sonia(ph), Odin became
Sonia`s(ph) also. Odin attended every one of Sonia`s(ph) recitals.

Odin was Sonia`s(ph) biggest supporter in all aspect of her life. Olivia
and Shakila(ph) had two sons, Amare(ph) and Chancellor(ph) who will never
know their uncle Odin.

OLIVIA THIBOU, ODIN LLOYD`S SISTER: These last couple of years has been
the hardest time of our lives.

At the age of 25, I was asked to write my brother`s eulogy, were the
hardest thing I`ve ever done in my life.

And I wrote it with a smile because I got to write all the great memories
that I had of him.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is the District Attorney of Bristol County,
Thomas Quinn, who managed the successful prosecution of Aaron Hernandez.

Mr. Quinn, thank you very much for joining us, joining us on this night. I
know how long a day this has been for you. Could you tell us what it was
like to be in that courtroom today when that verdict was returned?

THOMAS QUINN, ATTORNEY: Well, it was very emotional. It had been a long
deliberation and when the verdict came in, I think we all were very happy
with it, that the jury had found him guilty and we had proven the case
beyond a reasonable doubt.

O`DONNELL: After about one day of deliberation, it seemed to me that the
second-guessing of your office, your prosecutors and your handling of this
case got louder and louder every day.

By the time we got into the seventh day of deliberations, there were an
awful lot of people thinking that the DA blew this case and they were going
to probably going to come out of there with a hung jury.

What was it like going through such a long jury deliberation?

QUINN: Well, we felt good about it. It can get tense and stressful. And
as you indicated, everybody starts talking what`s going on? What`s the

But we felt we had a strong case. Monday and Tuesday, the jury deliberated
all day, there were no questions. I think that was a good sign for us and
we felt confident.

I felt good. I mean, once the verdict is announced that they -- once they
indicate there is a verdict, there obviously is that level of excitement
and wondering what`s going to happen.

But I think the board verdict was well supported by the evidence, I think
our trial team did a great job and I think it was the appropriate result.

O`DONNELL: You had something occur in this trial that I`ve certainly never
seen, and that was in final arguments, a defense lawyer actually
introducing evidence.

Introducing it for the first time saying, well, OK, Aaron Hernandez was
there, but he is not the guy who did it.

This after a long trial in which the issue of where he was, was in effect
being contested by the defense.

QUINN: Yes, I think a lot of people seem to be surprised at that. I think
that`s a trial -- that`s a trial strategy that they felt they had to do. I
think, frankly, to argue that he wasn`t there was not credible.

There was very strong evidence putting him at the scene of that murder, DNA
evidence, footprint evidence, the tire marks from the vehicle and video
showing the vehicle going there.

So it did appear to take a lot of people by surprise. But as I indicate, I
think that was -- would not have been credible to argue he was not there.

O`DONNELL: Yes, it seems like your prosecution locked them in on that
point and they realized they had no choice. There`s so much more to talk
about it, about this.

We`ve run out of time for it for tonight. Thomas Quinn, thank you very
much for joining us tonight, really appreciate it.

QUINN: OK, my pleasure, thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, one of Hillary Clinton`s potential challengers used
a video to take a swipe at her today. We will have that and more campaign
news next.



offering specific ideas about how to help small businesses, how to jump
start them. I`ll have a lot more to say about this as the campaign goes
forward, but before I roll out my policies, I want to hear from people who
are on the front lines.


LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC ANCHOR: Today, Hillary Clinton`s first trip to
Iowa as a 2016 presidential candidate came to an end. The former secretary
of state did not offer specific economic policies during a meeting with
small business owners today, but her campaign did release a statement
clarifying her views on marriage equality.

Quote, "Hillary Clinton supports marriage equality and hopes the Supreme
Court will come down on the side of same-sex couples being guaranteed that
constitutional right."

Just 11 months ago, Hillary Clinton told NPR that the legality of same-sex
marriage should be left up to the states to decide. Hours after Hillary
Clinton`s campaign released her new position on marriage equality, not yet
announced presidential candidate Martin O`Malley released this video about
Hillary Clinton`s old position on marriage equality without, of course,
mentioning her name.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: History celebrates profiles and courage, not profiles
in convenience. The dignity of every person tells us that the right to
marry is not a state right. It is a human right.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is "Washington Post" columnist and MSNBC
political analyst EJ Dionne, "New York Times" reporter and MSNBC
contributor Josh Barro, and Jennifer Jacobs, the chief politics reporter
for the "Des Moines Register."

Jennifer, your coverage and Iowa media`s coverage of this trip matters more
than any of our coverage. How has it been playing out there in the Iowa
media for Hillary Clinton?

JENNIFER JACOBS, "DES MOINES REGISTER": So far so good. It seems to be
the consensus out here that she hasn`t had any major gaffes. She set out
to accomplish certain goals and she accomplished them. She wanted to
really get in touch with Iowa voters and avoid the press for the most part,
and really just focus on her message and on Iowans themselves. And it
seemed like she accomplished that quite well. So the conclusion here is,
is that it went pretty smoothly.

O`DONNELL: I want to play something she said today about her grandparents.
Let`s listen to this.


CLINTON: There are a lot of immigrant stories. You know, all my
grandparents, you know, came over here and, you know, my grandfather went
to work in a lace mill in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and worked there until he
retired at 65. He started when he was a teenager and, you know, just kept

My grandmother on my father`s side, Hanna Jones Rodham, she immigrated with
her family as a young girl to Scranton and went to work very young in a
silk mill.


O`DONNELL: So in the second one she mentioned only one grandparent, EJ
Dionne. That`s because the things she said today about all my grandparents
was, of course, instantly fact checked and it turns out, well, three of
them were born here and only one of them arrived as an immigrant which is
what these early days in Iowa are for, getting those kinds of wrinkles
straightened out.

Isn`t that what it`s about at this point, EJ?

EJ DIONNE, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, first of all, everything comes back
to Scranton. If Joe Biden runs, he`s from Scranton. So Pennsylvania is
always at the center of things.

Yes, I mean, the way we campaign now, you cannot make any mistakes or any
misstatements and obviously she was called out on that. But it`s
interesting, the whole trip -- and Jennifer had a good piece on this, this
evening. The whole trip was about sort of small ball, small is beautiful,
as Dan Balz said. It was about focusing on voters, seeming very personal.

I don`t remember hearing Hillary talk that much about her immigrant story
before. And I think on the whole, she`s a lot better off having done this
than if she had done, you know, a conventional announcement which she did
the last time and which didn`t help her very much.

O`DONNELL: Josh Barro, if this video from Martin O`Malley is what we can
expect more of --


O`DONNELL: It`s literally one day late. You know?


O`DONNELL: I mean, she`s already changed her position. The video is three
hours late. If he was going to do that, you know, why didn`t he do it a
couple of weeks ago?

BARRO: One day late and doesn`t even mention her by name.


BARRO: It`s a very strange thing, Mark O`Malley is doing, trying to run
against Hillary Clinton without saying the words Hillary Clinton.

O`DONNELL: I mean, he couldn`t be more polite.


O`DONNELL: Actually releasing it after she`s changed her position.

BARRO: We saw this interesting thing, Lincoln Chafee, flirting with the
race. Now obviously Lincoln Chafee, the former Republican senator from
Rhode Island, will not be the Democratic nominee for president, but he at
least, when he flirts about, he talks about what`s wrong with Hillary
Clinton and why he would be better than Hillary Clinton.

It goes to show, I mean, Hillary has this nomination in the bag, it`s
interesting for her being in Iowa, the state that tripped her up so much
eight years ago, it seems like if I`m in Hillary`s head, I just have to be
thinking, I just have to be as careful as possible to make sure nothing
gets screwed up in Iowa again. But it`s really difficult to see how
somebody can trip her up there or -- anywhere else on the way to the

O`DONNELL: Well, Chris Christie thinks he can trip her up. Chris Christie
is a firm believer that Christie can beat Hillary Clinton. Let`s listen to


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me ask you about Mrs. Clinton`s campaign. Can you
beat her, Chris Christie?

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: If I run, I will beat here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And which blue states do you take away that Mitt Romney
could not get and why do you win there?

CHRISTIE: Let`s start in Pennsylvania where folks have seen me operate as
governor of New Jersey over the course of the last 5 1/2 years. And I
think have a real economist level with the type of leadership that I
provide. So if I were to run, I think Pennsylvania is a state that is very
much in play. I think New Mexico is a state that`s very much in play. I
think the same that I`m in today, New Hampshire, is a state that would be
very much in play.


O`DONNELL: And Jennifer Jacobs, speaking of changing positions, today in
New Hampshire, Chris Christie changed his position on vaccines. He says
there should be absolutely no exceptions, everybody should have to comply,
no parents getting to make up their own minds about it.

Chris Christie says he hasn`t decided, which I think I believe in this case
because it`s just hard to imagine him going into Iowa in this field with
his problems making any headway at all.

JACOBS: Right. He hasn`t been here in about a month. He`s kind of faded
off the radar for Iowa Republican caucus goers. They`re really interested
in people who come here quite often and are really, you know, dedicated to
earning their trust, which is interesting because Chris Christie was
talking today about Hillary Clinton earning trust.

And, you know, let me go back to the marriage thing. As far as Hillary
Clinton and her marriage evolving, her thoughts evolving on that, keep in
mind, same-sex marriage has been legal in Iowa for almost six years now.


JACOBS: And the last time Hillary Clinton campaigned here in 2008, the
majority of Iowans believed that marriage should only be between one man
and one woman. And it`s -- we`ve had a pretty dramatic change in public
opinion here in Iowa. Now the majority say that same-sex marriage should
be legal, that they`re proud of it or that they don`t care. So that`s not
an issue.

But they -- they don`t seem to mind of that issue, if -- you know, but
others, for the Republicans, for those caucus goers, they don`t like to see
any sort of changing or evolving on those sorts of issues. So going back
to Christie, that could come back to bite him.

O`DONNELL: All right. Let`s look at the Republican side of that issue.
Let`s listen to Marco Rubio answering the question, would he attend a gay


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You believe that a marriage should be between a man and
a woman.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But if someone in your family or your office happens to
be gay and they invite you to the wedding, would you go?

RUBIO: Yes if there`s someone that I love that`s in my life, I don`t have
to agree with their decisions to continue to love them and participate in
important events.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The question is, if you would attend to a gay wedding.

RUBIO: Yes. But somebody in my life that I love and I care for, of course
I would. I mean that`s -- of course I would. I mean, that`s -- I`m not
going to hurt them simply because I have to disagree with the choice
they`ve made or they disagree with the decision they`ve made or whatever it
may be.


O`DONNELL: EJ Dionne I think Ted Cruz is working on a very different
answer to that right now.

DIONNE: Right. Although, you know, he gave the only answer you can
plausibly give and sound like a human being. And if you -- if Ted Cruz
really wants to go at him on that, not on gay marriage as a principle or
any of that, I don`t think even among pretty ardent evangelicals that would
help him very much. I think that was by far the safest answer he could
give. And as Jennifer suggested opinion on this has moved so rapidly, so
rapidly that Martin O`Malley`s ad makers can`t even keep up with.

O`DONNELL: It`s moved rapidly in the last 24 hours. But Josh Barro, I can
imagine Ted Cruz saying, you know, look, I would get on my knees and pray
for this couple, I would hold their hands. I would beg them not to do it,
all that stuff.

BARRO: Well, I mean, we`ll see. I`m sure Ted Cruz will be asked this
question. We`ll be able to see how he responds to it.

I thought there was something very interesting in that Rubio interview
later. Jorge Ramos asked him -- they ended up talking about divorce, and
he said, you know, look, I`m a Catholic. We have teachings against
divorced. But that doesn`t mean that if somebody in my life got divorced I
would cut them out or whatever.


BARRO: But the thing is -- the question for Marco Rubio is then --
presumably he does not think public policy on divorce should be closely
informed by Catholic teaching unless he wants to greatly restrict it in a
way that it isn`t now. That`s a divergence from what he says about gay
marriage. If he -- you know, if it`s about, you know, live and let live,
or whatever, he can have his Catholic teaching, why does he think that
should inform public policy on marriage?

O`DONNELL: DJ Dionne, Josh Barro and Jennifer Jacobs, thank you all for
joining us tonight. Really appreciate it.

DIONNE: Good to be with you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, a mini helicopter landed on the Capitol lawn today,
piloted by a protester who agrees with Hillary Clinton on something.
That`s next.


O`DONNELL: A 61-year-old man from Florida was arrested today in
Washington, D.C. and is facing federal charges. He`s under arrest tonight
facing federal charges for flying his small, personal aircraft called a
gyrocopter across Washington, D.C. and landing on the lawn of the capital
in violation of the no-fly zone there.

NBC`s Peter Alexander has the latest. Peter.

PETER ALEXANDER, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Lawrence, good evening to you.
We`re basically standing in the flight path for that gyrocopter that came
through this area just a matter of hours ago. This mailman, Doug Hughes,
was hoping to start a conversation about campaign finance reform, but
instead started a new conversation about the state of homeland security.


ALEXANDER: They say things never move fast on Capitol Hill. Today was an

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not good, people.

ALEXANDER: Coming in for a landing on the lawn of the U.S. Capitol, Doug
Hughes, on board what`s called a gyrocopter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everyone was shouting, move, get the hell, move.

ALEXANDER: The 61-year-old mailman from Ruskin, Florida, was looking to
deliver a message to Washington, demanding an end to big money and politics
and government corruption. Carrying 535 letters, one for each member of
Congress. It was a daring act of civil disobedience that also happened to
be a federal crime. Hughes made no secret of his plan, alerting the "Tampa
Bay Times" last year.

DOUG HUGHES, PILOT WHO FLEW ON CAPITOL: I`m going to violate the no-fly
zone. A non-violent intent for nobody to get hurt.

ALEXANDER: He acknowledged the risk to his safety.

HUGHES: I don`t believe that the authorities are going to shoot down a 60-
year-old mailman in a flying bicycle.

ALEXANDER: And insisted he was not a terrorist.

HUGHES: Terrorists don`t broadcast their flight path. Terrorists don`t
invite an escort to go along with them.

ALEXANDER: Hughes told the paper he took off from Gettysburg,
Pennsylvania, an hour away, rounding the Washington monument, giving him a
clear view of the White House landing at the Capitol.

BEN MONTGOMERY, TAMPA BAY TIMES REPORTER: I had no idea he would make it
this far. I mean, I thought for sure he`d be brought down or forced down
somewhere before this.

ALEXANDER: It`s just the latest in a string of security breaches including
a drone that landed at the White House earlier this year. After arresting
Hughes, authorities found nothing hazardous on board.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Capitol Police are going to have to regroup and the
airspace in the district -- everybody who`s in charge of that has to
regroup. Police helicopters should have been forcing this guy down before
he ever reached the capitol.

ALEXANDER: Right now, you can see Capitol Police are getting ready to haul
away the gyrocopter, but not until after the Capitol grounds was locked
down and this area was evacuated.

After blogging about his plans more than a year ago, the Secret Service
reportedly interviewed Hughes in Florida. Today he live-streamed his
flight but it`s not clear whether law enforcement was aware of it before he
got here.


ALEXANDER: Hughes is expected to make his first court appearance here in
Washington tomorrow and there are late reports tonight that authorities
have converged on Gettysburg Regional Airport in Pennsylvania where it`s
believed he may have taken off on this unprecedented stunt. Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Thanks, Peter.

Now that Doug Hughes is not to be confused with the Tony Award-winning
director Doug Hughes.

We`ve got a lot of good tweets tonight suggesting what woman should be on
the $20 bill, including a woman I`ve never heard of. This tweet is from
Joni. It says, "I vote for Victoria Woodhull who ran for president before
women earned the right to vote."

I did not know that.

Other great suggestions have come in. Rosa Parks, Frances Perkins, Eleanor
Roosevelt. Senator Shaheen is going to join us next with her plan to get a
woman on the $20 bill.


O`DONNELL: And now for tonight`s "Good News." But it first requires some
scary video that doesn`t turn out as bad as it looks. A woman visiting the
west coast of Ireland was standing on a rock when she was swept away by a
huge wave.




O`DONNELL: According to "The Independent," the paramedic Shamus McCarthy
sprang into action and found a way to hoist her to safety. She was treated
for an ankle injury at the university hospital in Galway and is making a
good recovery.

Irish Water Safety will present Shamus McCarthy with their official "Just
in Time" award for his heroic actions.

Keep the tweets coming in on about who should be on the $20 bill. Senator
Shaheen will join us.


O`DONNELL: Last year, President Obama got a letter from a little girl that
reminded him and made him realize it`s time to rewrite our currency,
specifically the names and faces on our currency.


letters that we receive. We get 40,000 correspondence and then our
correspondent`s office chooses 10, sort of a sample for me to take a look
at. And it gives me a chance to hear directly from the people I serve.

Last week, a young girl wrote to ask me why aren`t there any women on our
currency? And then she gave me like a long list of possible women to put
on our dollar bills and quarters and such, which I thought was a pretty
good idea.


O`DONNELL: And now someone is finally doing something about that good

Senator Jeanne Shaheen introduced a bill today that will put a woman on the
$20 bill. If that happens, it won`t be the first time. In the 19th
century, Pocahontas appeared on the back of the $20 note. The very first
and only woman to ever appear on the front of our paper money is First Lady
Martha Washington who appeared on the $1 note in 1886.

Joining us now is Senator Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire who introduced
the women on the 20 Act today.

Senator, thanks for joining us and tell us what your bill --

SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Nice to be with you.

O`DONNELL: What would your bill do?

SHAHEEN: Well, this is -- picks up on a great grassroots effort that
suggests that we should get some women on some of our currency. And the
effort is to get a woman on the $20 bill. So we would set up the same
process that was done back in the `20s when Andrew Jackson was chosen to be
on the $20 bill. And it would set up a committee. We`re hoping we can get
a lot of support in the Senate, all of the women senators and as many men
as possible to say, this would be great. We need to recognize the
contributions of some of the women in American history.

O`DONNELL: Yes. The last time the currency got organized with all these
portraits was in 1928 and the secretary of the treasury, who has the
authority to just do whatever he wants, really, or whatever she might want,
got a panel together and your bill says let`s get a panel of citizens
together to consider this and to consider who that woman should be.


O`DONNELL: Doesn`t the bill specify that it should be a woman?

SHAHEEN: Yes, it does. And -- but it leads up to the panel, the
opportunity to collect information, to get input from people across this
country and make recommendations on who that woman should be.

O`DONNELL: Well, this idea got a big boost last year when the president
read a letter from a 9-year-old girl named Sophia who said -- wrote to him
and he talked about it publicly about why aren`t there any women on
currency, and I just want to read what Sophia`s suggestions are. The name
she has suggested since she really got a lot of attention to this. Her --
her suggestions are Anne Hutchinson, Rosa Parks, Abigail Adams, Emily
Dickinson, Helen Keller, Deborah Samson, Betsy Ross, Michelle Obama,
Hillary Clinton, Eleanor Roosevelt, Harriet Tubman, and Ida B. Wells, and
it`s a great list. And as you know --

SHAHEEN: It`s a great list.

O`DONNELL: There`s only two on there who can`t be on the currency because
one of the very few things in law about our currency is that it cannot
represent a living person on the currency.

SHAHEEN: Well, we have, as she points out in that letter, some wonderful
women who have made significant contributions to this country to choose
from and that`s what this bill would do. And I`m really hoping that we can
get people to support it. As I said, this is really coming from a
grassroots effort. You pointed out the little girl who made the
suggestion. There have been women on the Internet across the country who
have signed up saying it`s time to do this. So I`m hoping we can get
Congress to go along.

O`DONNELL: Well, there is an alternative route, Senator, if -- and that is
that the treasury secretary can just do it without a panel or anything. To
my surprise, having researched this law, it`s within the full authority of
the secretary to change all of these pictures on the currency tomorrow if
he feels like it.

So if your candidate for president wins, if we do have a President Clinton,
she`s going to have to pick a treasury secretary and I have an idea of who
that should be. I think Secretary Jeanne Shaheen should be in, should be
in charge of deciding who`s on that $20 and who`s on the rest of that
currency if that administration comes along.

SHAHEEN: Listen, I`m not willing to wait that long.



SHAHEEN: I think we --

O`DONNELL: That`s right.


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