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'Up with Steve Kornacki' for Sunday, April 19th, 2015

Read the transcript to the Sunday show

Date: April 19, 2015
Guest: Rick Ungar, Mercedes Schlapp, Lauren Fox, Robert Costa, Karen
Tumulty, Steve Latourette, Tony Hale, Jane Hall, Tim Huelskamp

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC ANCHOR: Win free and campaign in New Hampshire.

All right, and good morning to you out there. Thanks for getting up with
us this fine Sunday morning from Republican frontrunners to little known
candidates, nine more presidential hopefuls descended on New Hampshire
yesterday hoping to distance themselves from the rest of the GOP pack and
break out in the races for the White House. We are good to have more from
the ground in New Hampshire just a minute from now. Also, Hillary Clinton
is headed to the - state tomorrow. Should we expect the same media circus
that surrounded her first full week on the trail when she reaches that
state? What has she talked about so far, by the way? We are going to take
a closer look at both the message and also what burrito did she order
madness. All of that coming up as well. Also ahead on this show, this
appears to be Miami`s moment with both Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio in the
race. Never before have two top tier candidates lived in the same place.
The lived just three miles apart. And so, we`re going to travel down to
South Florida this morning in an effort to find out whether voters there -
or how voters there are split between Rubio and Bush.

And all hail to Tony Hail, the make believe world, in which - Salina Mayer
is now president would not be the same if she didn`t have her body man Gary
by her side. Tony Hail who plays him will be here to tell us all about the
new season of VIP and whether there are any new episodes of "Arrested
Development" in the works, too. We are looking forward to that. And
meanwhile, the real world president of the United States Barack Obama is
dealing with a huge rift inside his own party. More on that ahead.

But we begin this morning in New Hampshire where a major early test for the
2016 presidential field has been playing out. Just about all of the
candidates, and potential candidates making their case to Republican
leaders. Activists, voters in all sorts of cameras from all over the world
in the first in the nation primary state. 19 in all. 19 total, 2016
hopefuls trying this weekend to differentiate themselves from the rest of
the Republican pack. Day two of what they called the first in the nation
summit combining last night with a much anticipated speech from the
surprise early front runner in New Hampshire, Scott Walker.

Yesterday also featuring Ohio Governor John Kasich, making his way to New
Hampshire, his debut there after raising expectations that he may go ahead
and launch a late starting run for the White House. Also, former Arkansas
Governor Mike Huckabee making the trip north after announcing on Friday
that he will make a final decision on whether to run in early May. Senator
Rand Paul posting this picture in front of the MarryMac town hall upon his
arrival in the state yesterday morning before greeting voters in a local
diner there. Federal Senator Ted Cruz firing up the crowd with rhetoric at
the final month of President Obama`s term will be like "The Lord of the
Flies", he said. And as we mentioned at the top, the keynote speech last
night, delivered by Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker who right now could be
considered the front runner on the Republican side.


GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI): With the only pension system fully funded in the
country. We have a debt in pension ration as one of the lowest out there.


WALKER: We took away the controversy and we no longer fund Planned
Parenthood in the state of Wisconsin. We passed major prolife legislation
as well.


WALKER: We signed concealed carry so that law-abiding citizens can have
access to firearms who protect themselves and their family and their loved


WALKER: We passed, and just about a month ago, the U.S. Supreme Court took
action to allow us to once again uphold the law I signed that said that if
you want to vote in the state of Wisconsin you have to carry a photo I.D.
to prove who you are.


WALKER: Well, people want more - They don`t just want a fighter. They
want someone who fights and wins.



KORNACKI: Walker has been at or near the top of the GOP field nationally,
ever since January. That`s when he delivered his speech at an event in
Iowa. It was very well received by the party base. Lately, he`s also been
attacking President Obama on foreign policy, a play for support from the
hawkish wing of the Republican Party. A poll out just days before this
weekend`s forum in New Hampshire showing Walker ahead by double digits in
that state, more than doubling up Jeb Bush who sits all the way back in
fourth place up there.

On Friday, Jeb Bush telling the audience in New Hampshire that he doesn`t
see a coronation in his party coming his way and you can see why. Right
now, there is a very crowded field of Republican candidates, but most of
yesterday speakers are trying to give the impression that they are less
concerned about beating up on each other than they are the former secretary
of state who`s presumed to have a hold on the Democratic nomination. And
the audience was eating up that anti-Hillary Clinton rhetoric. Take a
listen to some of the crowd pleasers from yesterday.


Ambassador Stevens is sending his own cables directly to Hillary Clinton.
"We are worried about being overrun by the jihadists. I think that her
dereliction of duty, her not doing her job, her not providing security for
our forces, for our diplomatic missions should forever preclude her from
holding higher office.


MIKE HUCKABEE (R ) CONSIDERING 2016. What most people don`t know is, that
every time I ever ran for public office, I ran against the Clinton
political machine. I ran against their money. I ran against them.
Virtually, every election both Bill and Hillary Clinton would come back and
campaign for every opponent I ever had. If somebody wants to know what is
it like running against their organization and their apparatus, come see
me. I will be happy to tell you.

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R-OH), CONSIDERING 2016: In this time, we need a strong
America to send a message to our enemies, and also to send a message to our
strength that America is back. And this can be done.


going to be a dangerous time. The next 20 months we are going to be
(INAUDIBLE) in state of nature. It`s going to be like "Lord of the Flies."
But let me tell you something, January 2017 is coming.


KORNACKI: All right. Let`s bring in this morning`s panel now, Mercedes
Schlapp, a Republican strategist who worked as a spokesperson in the George
W. Bush administration, Rich Ungar, senior political contributor with
Forbes, co-host of Sirius XM "Steele and Ungar". Lauren Fox, correspondent
with National Journal. And in New Hampshire, on the ground from where all
this happened, Robert Costa, national political reporter for "The
Washington Post". He`s been listening to everyone up there this week. And
he joins us now live from Manchester.

Robert, I`ll start with you. I guess 19 speeches - from possible or
actual Republican presidential candidates. Let me start with the keynoter
last night with Scott Walker, the Wisconsin governor. We put the polling
numbers up there. He has surged to the front of the pack in New Hampshire
and other early states nationally. So a lot of attention on him last
night, a lot of pressure. How did he do in the spotlight last night?

ROBERT COSTA, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I was inside of the room in Nashville
(ph). And Walker impressed. It was a tight crowd. He made sure to go up
to every single person in the room, shake their hand. He sat next to
former governor Sununu, a power broker up here over dinner. And he had a
blue collar pitch, talked a lot about his Wisconsin record. It seems to be
impressing the New Hampshire voters who are usually flinty and skeptical.
He seems to be the leader at this point and it didn`t change last night.

KORNACKI: What about the other speakers yesterday? So you had Ted Cruz,
we showed a clip there, you had Rand Paul, John Kasich, the Ohio governor
making appearance. Did anybody else yesterday surprise you or stand out or
cause some sort of, you know, a positive reaction from the activists up

COSTA: I think you have got to pay attention to Ohio Governor John Kasich.
I mean he`s the most intriguing person coming out of this New Hampshire
summit. He is someone - when I asked him yesterday about Secretary
Clinton, how to go after Clinton, instead of - giving a usual attack line,
he said Republicans have got to take a step back and find out how to really
- find a way to be more electable in a general election to talk about
compassion in a different way. I think he sees this field, and he sees an
opportunity. That`s why he`s looking for a late entry.

KORNACKI: And the opportunity, I guess, might have something to do with
this as well. This is a story that you and Karen Tumulty who is going to
be on the show later, wrote for "The Washington Post" in today`s paper.
The headline "New Hampshire could be make or break for Jeb Bush." Saying,
you are writing here that New Hampshire`s primary election will include
independents. In fact, there will probably be more of them voting in the
Republican primary than usual, if a Democratic race remains as
uncompetitive as it now appears.

I mean, so New Hampshire setting up is, we`d always talk about Iowa and all
the Evangelicals, maybe not natural territory for Bush. He has got to win
New Hampshire, you are basically saying here, and your early response to
him this weekend was what?

COSTA: It was pretty good. I think in some respects it was muted. Bush
is getting more loose on the campaign trail. And conquered on Thursday.
He had pie. He said he may be on a diet, but he had a slice. On Friday,
he was pretty convincing with conservative voters. But there`s still a lot
of questions from the right about common core, about his views on
immigration. In Bush`s favor is that he`s comfortable in giving his own
view. But he is not going to win Iowa, he`s not going to likely win South
Carolina. Those are tough states. Already in massive fight on the right.
New Hampshire because, as you said, there are independents who are going to
vote. This is the place that Bush needs to win. His allies say he doesn`t
need to win. He just needs to place in the top tier, but in this - in the
way this presidential elections run now, you almost have to win something
in the first three.

KORNACKI: Yeah, it`s hard to see if you can`t win one of the first three
states. How he keeps going. But let me bring the panel here curious what
you guys make of this.

On the question of Bush, it`s interesting to me watching his speech that
Robert used the term they are kind of muted in terms of the reaction. I
think back to his brother, to George W., and so much, you know, criticism,
so many jokes about George W. He mangles the English language, but George
W. connected with crowds. There was a populous sort of appeal to him. I
don`t think I see that in Jeb Bush.

RICK UNGAR: No, I think what you see with Jeb is somebody who does a
better job connecting one-on-one. I`ve watched a lot of the video where
it`s just him with a few people. He comes across rather well. Put him in
front of the crowd, it doesn`t happen. But I have got to tell I`m watching
the reaction of those people to Scott Walker, I truly, truly hope that they
will scratch a bit below the surface. Because they react so well when he
gives the speech telling him of his accomplishments in Wisconsin. Dig a
little. Those accomplishments are not what he`s saying. I have never seen
a candidate who has twisted his record the way this man twists his record.

KORNACKI: Mercedes, what do you think? I mean you had the experience of
working for George W. Bush. When you look at that ...


KORNACKI: So, what do you ...

SCHLAPP: Right. They are very - they are two different brothers. George
Bush, the president, again, connects well with the voters. I think with
Jeb Bush where he gets so much respected on the policy angle. He`s a man
of substance, the man can tell you legislation. Can point to - He is very
involved in what it is in making decisions when he was a governor. And
that`s why he was so loved by Floridians and still is. So, I think for Jeb
Bush, it`s the matter what he`s trying to do now, is connect from the
emotional standpoint. He talked about his grandkids. He talked about, you
know, the fact, that this is not a coronation. In fact, Hillary Clinton
should take some tips from Jeb by basically saying, look, I`m here to work
for every single vote and persuade people to go with me, but, you know, he
is facing challenges. And I think there`s - to a certain extent, that`s
why they`re looking at the fresh faces and saying well, is it a Rubio? Is
it a Walker? And I actually have been surprised that Walker has actually
searched so well, because I wonder to a certain point is he going to be
ready, what it takes nationally to win this presidential election.

KORNACKI: And I think a lot of people looking at that. And Rick makes the
point about hey, you want to take a closer look here at the Walker record?
But in terms of what he is tapping into, to getting to the top of the
polls, Lauren, I want to play this. We had the clip early where he
basically says, you know, you should be looking for somebody who knows how
to win. He also talked yesterday about his idea of what the recipe is for
conservative to win in a blue state like Wisconsin. Let`s play that.


GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI): Now - win with almost universal support among
Republicans, that`s not enough to win in my state. We need to carry
independents by over 11 almost 12 points. And interesting enough, you
don`t win the center by running to the center. You win the center by
leading. What independents want, is not unlike what our base wants, and
they want people to stand up and look you in the eye and tell you exactly
what you`re going to do. They don`t have to agree with you on every single
issue. But they want someone they know every single day is going to get up
and fight hard and then win for them and their family.


KORNACKI: And so, Lauren, I mean, I`m listening to that. You don`t win
the center by going to the center. This is - I think this is the appeal.
This is the dream message for the base. You can have your cake and eat it
too. You can be as conservative as you want, and guess what, the
independents, the moderates, the centrists, they are going to be with you.
That`s what he`s telling them, and he could say, look, I have won, I have
proofed it.

LAUREN FOX, NATIONAL JOURNAL: Well, I think we also have to remember that
we need his running for governor, you know, we`re not talking about these
midterm elections, we are not talking about, you know, a lot of Democrats
who are maybe coming up to the polls. We are not talking about a trash
(ph) of Independents who are coming out to the polls. People who are
coming out to the polls are very strongly liberal or very strongly
conservative. That`s who tends to vote in this elections. And so, I think
that when we are talking about Scott Walker, you`ve got a lot more to prove
than just his record in Wisconsin because like we were saying earlier, he
scratched a little below the surface some of these, you know, things that
he`s touting are not necessarily messages that are going to win Independent
voters in Florida or win Independent voters in Iowa. I just don`t know if
that`s really the case that he`s making.

KORNACKI: The other - he did, Casey Hunt or MSNBC`s Casey Hunt did talk to
him and ask him a question after his speech last night. And she asked him
if he would attend a gay wedding. She asked Scott Walker. Let`s play what
he said.


CASEY HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Would you attend a gay wedding?

GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R-WI): Well, in terms of, that`s certainly a personal
issue for a family member. (INAUDIBLE) in our family or we had a family
member who`s had a reception and it is their wedding, but when - and that`s
certainly, you know, my position on marriage. It`s still - it is defined
between a man and woman (INAUDIBLE) the constitution of the state. But for
someone I love, we have been at a reception.


COSTA: A simple yes or no would have done, wouldn`t it? I mean ...


KORNACKI: But it does - it does show, I guess, I`m thinking of Marco Rubio
- saying ...

UNGAR: This is the right answer.

KORNACKI: This seems to be ...

FOX: They need to just answer the question. You know, you can`t really
walk around that.


UNGAR: Did I hear Walker - the state constitution?

SCHLAPP: If there`s doubt, go to the constitution.

KORNACKI: So, he`s been - he`s been at the reception.

COSTA: This is only going to continue.

KORNACKI: Yeah, Robert, I mean this is becoming the question that every
candidate is going to get I think.

COSTA: This is going to likely consume the Republican primary, at least
for a few months. Once the Supreme Court comes out with its ruling in
June, Republicans may want to avoid the social issues, but these social
issues are going to be right at the fore of the primary debate and the
party that wants to try to play for this center, it`s going to be having
this debate within the party about gay marriages, about who goes to a gay
wedding. This is something that Republicans are still grappling with. And
they don`t have a coherent response for the Supreme Court rulings on the

KORNACKI: Robert, let me just - We`re running low on time here. But I
just wanted to start to put the weekend, the whole weekend, everything you
witnessed into sort of into perspective here.

Who had the best weekend? All these candidates came, they spoke, the
activist reacted. Who had the best weekend?

COSTA: Someone under the radar, but someone you have covered so closely,
Chris Christie. The New Jersey governor. He spent the whole week doing
town hall meetings, connected inside of the room. He has a lot of troubles
with New Jersey`s fiscal problems right now. But if anyone is going to
have a John McCain style come back at this point, it looks like Christie.

KORNACKI: All right, Robert Costa with "The Washington Post", thanks for
getting up early in New Hampshire. I appreciate all the time this morning.
And coming up next, first lady Michelle Obama met a founding father last
night. Sort of. We are going to explain that on the other side of the
break. And later, Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio are three miles and how many
voters apart? We travel down to Miami to find out including whether the
very first candidate Marco Rubio who beat the public office holds the


he was entirely too young. He looked like he had just stepped out of high
school. Rubio proved me wrong and I am so happy. And I want to admit it
every day of my life.



KORNACKI: All right. There`s a lot going on this morning. Let`s get
caught up on some of the other headlines making news without panel. Let`s
go to "The Wall Street Journal" headline this morning.

Michelle Obama. The first lady catches "Hamilton" off Broadway. So, the
first lady was in New York last night to see that hip hop musical based on
the life of Alexander Hamilton. It was written - written by historian Lin-
Manuel Miranda. He actually performed part of this for the Obamas at the
White House in 2009. Now, Michelle Obama returning all these years later.
You can see her - I think one of the actors tweeted out a picture of her
backstage last night. There you go. So, that is - that is the first lady
taking in some theater.

Let`s see what else is in the news. Let`s go to Britain`s "Daily
Telegraph" headline "Royal Baby". Princess Alice could cost bookmakers
500,000 pounds as betting mounts ahead of the birth. So, look at this.
They take bets on everything in England. My kind of country.


KORNACKI: So, 90 percent of the bets - they bet the gender of the child,
90 percent of them say it`s going to be a girl.

The odds are five to four on the name being Alice. I have no idea why.
And they also think that betting favors the girl being a blond.

Anybody - nobody ...


SCHLAPP: Wait, because I have five children, I`m just going to go with the
whole - I`ve been - look at how her belly is shaping up. It`s just a round

KORNACKI: Can you ...


KORNACKI: Can you tell ...

FOX: So, it`s a picture. Let`s start ...

SCHLAPP: Exactly. So, it could be a Prince Al or it could be a princess
Alice depending on ...

UNGAR: Why Al or Alice?


UNGAR: Why not Sam or Samantha?


SCHLAPP: It`s not royal enough.

FOX: It sounds like "Alice in Wonderland."

KORNACKI: And that is Alice with the -

UNGAR: Didn`t England have a princess Alice who was mad?


UNGAR: I just made that up.


KORNACKI: Apparently, I may - there`s been a lot of Princess Alice. I
know my royal family history. Let`s go to the front page of "The
Washington Post". What`s going on in this country. Big story today. This
is the cover of "The Washington Post" today. FBI admits errors at trials.
Justice Department and the FBI - FBI are now formally acknowledging false
matches, years` worth of the false matches on crime scene hair. They have
reviewed 268 trials before the year 2000 and found overstated forensic mass
matches that favored the prosecution in 95 percent of the cases. Nearly
every examiner in the FBI - FBI leads microscopic hair compares a flawed
testimony in almost all trials, in which they offered evidence against
criminal defendants. Wow.

UNGAR: That`s bad. And I tell you what I found interesting about the
article. They don`t actually say if it was negligent or intentional. It
implies intentional. And what`s really disturbing about this, a number of
those people were convicted of capital crimes that have been put to death.
This is very serious.

SCHLAPP: Which brings a larger issue of the criminal justice.

FOX: Yeah.

SCHLAPP: I think it`s such a critical topic. Something that, you know, I
think the federal government needs to continue to address. I think it`s
going to be a big issue come 2016.

FOX: It definitely will come up in Congress. I mean that`s something that
they are talking about constantly. I think if they can get past some of
this Loretta Lynch and trafficking business. There`ll be a ...

SCHLAPP: And it will be bipartisan.

KORNACKI: It`s so interesting to me. These sorts of stories that move
public opinion on this, because at the same time what we have this story
hitting today, which would get people saying, I`m not so sure about the
death penalty. You have the Tsarnaev`s trial in Boston. And that swings
people the other way. It`s interesting to see. And now another one here -
How about this from WBTV in North Carolina. Man`s obituary, do not vote
for Hillary Clinton.


KORNACKI: 81-year old Larry Darrel Upright of Cabarrus County in North
Carolina could be - I actually - don`t know - died on Monday at the age of
81. His obituary asked that in lieu of flowers, memorials can be sent to a
children`s hospital, and then this line. Also, the family respectfully
asks that you do not vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016. Rip Granddady.

North Carolina is a swing state.

UNGAR: There`s a guy who really likes to get the last word. And he did.

SCHLAPP: Yes. And there`s still dead people that vote. Think on that.


KORNACKI: Let`s get one more here. This is from the Guardian, Jon Stewart
opening about why he quit "The Daily Show." Guardian columnist Hadley
Friedman (ph) Interviewing Jon Stewart. Jon Stewart says I covered an
election four times. It didn`t appear there was going to be anything
wildly different about this one.

Well, if it`s Bush-Clinton, he`s right.

FOX: I think that speaks to the political system and how money in politics
and how burnt out people are on watching elections. It seems like they
start earlier and earlier.

KORNACKI: It`s true, but -

SCHLAPP: I will never be burnt out on elections.

KORNACKI: But without Jon Stewart, we said that on the show, that hour on
Comedy Central, Jon Stewart, Stephen Colbert, 11:00, 11:30.



UNGAR: It`s more for us.

KORNACKI: I guess that`s true. Up next, a closer look at the agenda
Hillary Clinton mapped out this week in Iowa. And later, how will Jeb Bush
handle challengers on the right who say he isn`t young enough or
conservative enough.


JEB BUSH: I hope you absorb the record. It`s a record, it`s a
conservative record. It`s not a Republican in name only record.



KORNACKI: Hillary Clinton is headed to New Hampshire tomorrow, the next
leg in her campaign rollout tour, which officially began this week out in
Iowa. That`s where she held a series of events with small groups of voters
and supporters.


CLINTON: I will have a lot more to say about this as the campaign goes
forward. But before I roll out my policies, I want to hear from people who
are on the front lines.


KORNACKI: There are not a lot of specifics in what Clinton has said so far
as a candidate, but here are the positions that she did take during her
first week as a candidate. One voicing support for a constitutional
amendment to change the way campaigns are financed. Also, endorsing
President Obama`s plan to make community college free. Vowing to build on
what works in the Affordable Care Act. Clinton also saying we need to
expand pre-k and paid family leave programs, make equal pay laws more
enforceable, and also carrying through on an immigration overhaul.


CLINTON: We are really missing out on economic opportunities because we
haven`t been able to agree on comprehensive immigration reform. We are
saying to all these other people who want the same dreams and the same, you
know, aspirations and the willingness to work hard, just like our families
did, that, no, we`re not going to make it easy for you. We`re not going to
make it legal for you.


KORNACKI: No real surprises so far in the issues Clinton is talking about.
They pretty much represent the standard Democratic checklist these days,
but the way she is delivering her message, with populist rhetoric, that`s
drawn some comparison to Elizabeth Warren, well, that is raising some


CLINTONI: Unfortunately, the deck is still stacked in favor of those at
the top. We need to reshuffle the cards and begin to play a different
hand, a hand that includes everybody who is willing to work hard and do
their part.


KORNACKI: Now that she`s an official candidate, it would be a lot harder
for Clinton to avoid weighing in on thorny issues that could divide her
base or alienate general election voters, so what can we expect from her?
Joining us now from New Hampshire to discuss is Karen Tumulty, national
political corespondent for "the Washington Post." The Panel back here
with me.

Karen, let`s start with that question. For the last couple of years,
Hillary Clinton sort of had the best of both worlds politically. She is
very visible, she was able to build this organization to run for president.
At the same time, she didn`t have to give a position on any of the most
divisive questions in Washington. When is that going to change? Right now
she is a candidate, but when is she going to start weighing in, for
instance, like on Iran?

KAREN TUMULTY, WASHINGTON POST: She has more time than any of the
candidates on the Republican side, because you know, by this fall they will
be in the middle of a bunch of debates. But I think the big challenge for
her, the issue that she touched on, in that last little clip, income
inequality, she needs to explain what she will do that`s different than
what is already been done. Back In the 90s, when her husband was trying to
pull the economy out of the ditch, the answer was pretty clear. You ginned
up growth, economic growth, you know, brought back the economy. Now it is
becoming increasingly clear that there are structural changes in the
economy. And that economic growth is not enough. That some people are
being left behind and you have to come up with solutions that will address
those structural things. And so it`s going to be both, as you said,
checking the box on issues that really stir the passions of Democrats, but
also explaining how the path forward will be different from the kinds of
things that are not working now.

KORNACKI: We`re also seeing some of the other things she said this week.
A different version of Hillary Clinton in some ways from what we saw in
2008. For instance, in the 2008 campaign, she got into all sorts of
trouble on this issue of driver`s licenses for undocumented immigrants. A
lot of people think her answer in the debate on that question was what
started the wheels coming off the wagon, sort of. This time around, we see
a Washington Post headline this week, Clinton supports giving driver`s
licenses to undocumented immigrants. She also said this week that she
hopes the Supreme Court will rule in favor of same-sex marriage nationally,
not a position she was advocating as a candidate in 2008. Actually, Martin
O`Malley, the former governor of Maryland, looking to potentially run
against her in the primaries, he was asked about this, her changes on some
of these positions this week. This is what he had to say. Let`s play


FORMER GOV. MARTIN O`MALLEY, D-MD.: I`m glad Secretary Clinton has come
around to the right positions on these issues. I believe that we`re best
as a party when we lead according to our principles and not according to
the polls. Every election is about the future, and leadership is about
making the right decision and the best decision before sometimes it becomes
entirely poplar.


KORNACKI: What about that, Karen? It seems these positions that Hillary
Clinton has now on gay marriage, for instance, it`s a no-brainer if you`re
a Democrat running for office right now. Does she get any points or lose
any points for having changed her position?

TUMULTY: You know she`s always been sort of a lagger on gay marriage
within her party. She finally came out in favor of it a full year after
President Obama did. She said that she hadn`t been able to speak out her
feelings because she was a public official. But that certainly did not
stop a lot of other public officials from speaking out, including her then
boss, Barack Obama, and his vice president, Joe Biden. So no, I don`t
think she gets a lot of credit, because there is a consistent pattern of
her being behind where most people in her party are on this issue. Don`t
forget, during her book rollout tour, she had a very tense exchange with
Terry Gross on National Public Radio on this issue as well.

KORNACKI: That`s right. Let me get the panel in here. Curious what you
guys make of the Hillary Clinton you are seeing this time around.

UNGAR: I wish I could sit here and say it`s been a wonderful week for
Hillary Clinton but it hasn`t. All political campaigns are contrived. But
the whole point of a good one is to contrive the campaign to not appear
contrived. I don`t think I`ve seen a more contrived appearing campaign
ever. It`s just been horrible. I think she would have been way better
served to come out and really start talking about the issues. She did
snake some issue discussions in, but they were pretty much missed among all
the crazy stuff that was getting all the coverage.

SCHLAPP: It`s been a huge distraction. The problem is we didn`t even know
she was talking about these messages because it was too busy talking about
the Scooby Doo minivan was going. You know, the server over in Chipotle,
the staged Iowa appearance with the family. It`s been a disaster for the
first week. The message is getting lost.

KORNACKI: I`m not sure it has been that disastrous. It does look
contrived. But I don`t know that she`s in a worst place today than she was
a week ago.


FOX: I would say that the message has gotten lost partly because of the
media`s coverage. Also partly because none of the messages she has come
out with so far have been surprising. These are things that are very
standard. The Democratic Party has been saying it for a long time. Even
what she said on immigration reform, we need to fix immigration. Everyone
is saying that. Republicans are saying that when they`re speaking in New
Hampshire. That is not a surprising position. And I think that, I guess,
is the more interesting part about the Clinton campaign than even the fact
that it looks maybe contrived.

UNGAR: What`s amazing to me, to me the worst faux pas of the week wasn`t
really covered much by the media. Nobody much has talked about that when
her black van came pulling into that community college, to for that
contrived meeting, there were a number of people who had shown up out on
the lawn, seniors, who wanted to get a glimpse of Hillary Clinton. They
wanted to come see Hillary Clinton. You would think you pull the van over,
you get out there and you go, thanks for coming. The van drove right past
them, she snuck into the back door, they never got a look at her.


KORNACKI: My only question is, could they see that group of senior
citizens through the 2,000 reporters who were camped out on the lawn and
running like wild animals? Anyway, thanks to Karen Tumulty with the
Washington Post for getting up early. We appreciate it.

Still ahead on the show. How Marco Rubio may be criticizing his former
mentor Jeb Bush without even mentioning his name. And next, it`s the eve
of the second Boston marathon to be held since those bombings in 2013, with
the sentencing of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev to follow not long after that. Stay
with us.


KORNACKI: Thousands of the world`s fastest runners are preparing for
tomorrow`s Boston marathon. It will be the second Boston marathon to be
held since two bombs were detonated near the finish line in 2013. Police
say they are well prepared to protect the 30,000 runners and hundreds of
thousands of spectators who are expected at the race tomorrow morning.
Certain items like backpacks, suitcases and strollers will not be allowed
near the starting line. The race comes one day before the sentencing phase
of Boston marathon bomber Dzhokhar Tsarnaev begins on Tuesday. The same
jury that convicted him on all 30 counts associated with the bombing will
decide if he gets life in prison or if he gets the death penalty. It`s a
question that many in the city of Boston have been wrestling with.

Meanwhile, today marks the 20th anniversary of another infamous domestic
terror attack, that was the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal
building in Oklahoma City. Former President Bill Clinton expected to speak
at today`s memorial service. More on that live from Oklahoma City is ahead
in the next hour. Also we`re going to be traveling to Miami later on the
show, focusing on three very specific miles, that`s next, stay with us.


KORNACKI: So here`s a plausible scenario. Republican voters in the key
early states, like Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, they end up being
split next year, they are unable to decide whether a member of the GOP
establishment or a younger, more conservative upstart would be the best
nominee to win back the White House for them. Let`s say those two
competing front runners end up being Jeb Bush on the establishment side and
Marco Rubio on the insurgent side. If that happens, that means that
sometime in mid March of next year, Bush and Rubio could be looking at the
Florida primary as the contest that decisively catapults one of them into
the lead. And ends the other`s chances of winning the White House. Not
only do Bush and Rubio both call the state of Florida home, they also both
call the city of Miami home. In fact, they live three miles apart from
each other. So we decided that we would travel down to Miami this week and
talk to voters on the ground there, to make sense of how these allies, they
were mentor and prot‚g‚ for years, how these two close allies could become
rivals in the race for president.


MARC CAPUTO, POLITICO: We`re in Coral Gables right now, standing in front
of my house. This is an interesting place because if you go about a mile
and a half that way, Jeb Bush lives that way and if you go due west about a
mile and a half or two miles, there is Marco Rubio`s house.

REP. CARLOS CURBELO, R-FLORIDA: It`s unlike anything we`ve ever seen
before, and a lot of people don`t know exactly how to handle it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have two good men.

fair, we`d say Jeb Bush is one of the best governors we have ever had, in
the tradition of Bob Graham and Ruben Askew (ph) and Leroy Collins. A
person that wanted to be fair to Marco Rubio would say a semi meteoric
rise. It wasn`t that many years ago, he was a commissioner in a relatively
small town of West Miami.

TANIA ROZIO, FORMER COMMISSIONER: When my term expired in April of 98,
Marco Rubio was the one that was elected and sat in my seat. At that
moment I thought he was entirely too young. He looked like he had just
stepped out of high school. Rubio proved me wrong, and I am so happy, and
I will admit it every day of my life.

when Marco was the speaker and Jeb was the governor. So I woke up every
day and went to work to argue against their policies, which were some of
the most severe conservative policies in the country. Although there may
be a generational difference between them in age, there is absolutely no
difference between them in policies.

FRED MENACHEM, GRAY ZONE MIAMI RADIO: They are two totally different
experiences. Marco Rubio comes from West Miami, working class roots.
Working class family. Jeb was a guy that was really entrenched in helping
build this community from a business perspective.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`ve detected a lot of positive sentiment especially
from the older Cuban Americans for Jeb than there is for Marco. There is
that sense that Marco should wait his turn.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I personally think that governors will have an
advantage in this election because the American people will want someone in
the White House who has had experience as an executive running an

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know much about Marco Rubio. The little bit
that I saw of him, a little radical, this situation with Cuba, for
instance, the best thing that can happen (inaudible).

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am registered as a Democrat but I always vote for
the correct person, and in this coming election it`s not Democrat or
Republican, it`s Rubio.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you will see some of us go one way and some go the
other way. The important thing for those of us who would like to see one
of them become president is no matter who wins for us all to come together
at the end.


KORNACKI: An interesting piece. The biggest fan for Marco Rubio is the
woman he beat in his first race for office. Fascinating package there.
Thanks to producer Ann Thompson for putting that together. Up next we will
break down the implications of that rivalry between Bush and Rubio,
including whether Rubio saying things like this has anything to do with it.


RUBIO: This election is not just about what laws we`re going pass. This
election is a generational choice about what kind of country we will be.




KORNACKI: Just yesterday, a leader from yesterday began a campaign for
president by promising to take us back to yesterday. Yesterday is over.
We`re never going back.


KORNACKI: That was Marco Rubio on Monday in a speech he gave launching his
2016 presidential candidacy. Making frequent use not only of the word
yesterday but saying generation or generational seven times. Of course
Marco Rubio will tell you he was referring to Hillary Clinton there, but he
could just as easily have been taking shots at Jeb Bush. And maybe that`s
the point. Rubio gets to attack Clinton head on in his speeches, while
still reminding people of his one-time mentor, Governor Bush, and the
generational difference between them, a 20-year age gap. While being able
to maintain complete deniability. Now in our last segment we reported from
Miami on the emerging rivalry between these two candidates. Now I want to
ask the panel. Is this a contest that could be fought on generational
lines? That jumped right out at me, watching that Rubio speech on Monday
night. Because on the one hand, you`re given the crowd the red meat they
want. They want to attack Hillary Clinton. He`s saying I`m the voice of
the new generation, she`s yesterday, she`s been on the stage for a
generation, without ever having to say Jeb Bush`s name. He`s making the
exact same point about Jeb Bush.

FOX: Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio are essentially foils of each other. Marco
Rubio tends to be very energetic, inspiring speaker, and is a little light
on the policy issues because of experience, meanwhile Jeb Bush has a lot of
executive experience from his time as governor, and on the campaign stage,
it`s just not as quite as energetic. The crowd seems to be lulled a little
bit to sleep by him, when you watch him speaking.

KORNACKI: That`s the other contrast, right? If you`re start pressing the
generational issues, then the question is you can be old, you can look old,
you can act old. Jeb Bush, he seems to act his age in speeches. Rubio
seems to act his age. You feel the generational difference.

SCHLAPP: I think for Rubio, he has the opportunity to say, it worked for
President Obama. In 2008, he was young, with a beautiful family,

KORNACKI: Republicans don`t want to hear that.

SCHLAPP: Right. But Rubio`s tactic is, we want to have the fresh face.
We want to make sure we`re able to bring together the establishment and the
Tea Party folks together. But the question will become again, does Rubio
have the experience? Is he able to push through, knowing there is such
division between Bush and Rubio at this time?

UNGAR: I don`t think it will be generational in the fight for the
Republican nomination. I really don`t. I think there will be different
things that will come into play there. Should Rubio get the nomination and
run against Hillary Clinton? I think it will become hugely generational in
that fight. We spoke about that earlier. Put a picture of the two of them
next to each other, and it tells you where you lean. You will look at the
pictures and say who is that old lady running against that handsome young
man, or who is that kid in high school running against this experienced
veteran of American foreign policy. Whichever way you answer that

KORNACKI: It is interesting. The last Bush Clinton race, the theme was
generational. It was Bill Clinton, the boomer, the voice of this
generation that had not yet had power, against the last World War II vet to
be president.

UNGAR: Clinton looked like a grownup. I wonder how much that`s going to
hurt Marco Rubio. Marco Rubio speaks like a grownup but he looks like a
young kid.

KORNACKI: Very youthful. The other thing too, I wonder that question of
not just experience but executive experience. We heard this from the
congressman in the package there. The point has been made to me, the
argument has been made to me, that if you`re looking at sort of what
Republicans are looking for and maybe what swing voters are looking for,
they always tend to look at the end of a presidency for the opposite of
that. In other words, Barack Obama was a senator who had no executive
experience. So maybe Republicans who might otherwise look at Rubio`s
background and say that`s not a problem, now say wait a minute. That`s the
same background as Obama.


UNGAR: First term senator, no business experience.

KORNACKI: We want executive experience.

SCHLAPP: Polls show they do want a governor rather than a senator, but
with that said, foreign policy could be very important come 2016. With
that being the case, Rubio did serve on the Foreign Relations Committee.
Is it enough to convince voters to go his way? Especially with Jeb Bush


FOX: Foreign policy is his specialty in the Senate. That has been the
thing that his staff has been very, has tried to make a cornerstone of who
he is in the Senate, he`s on intelligence. When he speaks out, he speaks
out about Cuba and Iran. These are big issues and I think he`s trying to
play like he knows what he`s talking about.

UNGAR: Yet, nobody in this country has the foreign policy experience of
Joe Biden and we don`t even talk about his name any more.

SCHLAPP: That`s a different story.

UNGAR: It`s true. When it comes to experience, we value it so much in
some ways, but in other ways we want freshness.

SCHLAPP: Senator Rubio is more comfortable talking about the foreign
policy issues than he is talking about economic issues, as opposed to Jeb
Bush, where his comfort zone is talking about jobs.

KORNACKI: Although it`s interesting the generational thing too on Cuba.
Rubio is so outspoken on Cuba, but he is with the older generation. You
see the polling on this. The younger generation is very much where Obama


UNGAR: We talked about this on the show yesterday and I was fascinated by
it. The history of the likelihood of the other party always winning after
two terms. You would think it would favor the Republicans. To me it`s
going to be the most interesting issue of this race. Will the Republicans
win because of the historic trend or have we finally gotten into a place
demographically where they can`t win?

KORNACKI: That`s the question, too do swing voters, do they still exist?
That`s what we will find out. Another hour of news and politics straight
ahead, including a look at where the Tea Party`s influence stands heading
into 2016.


KORNACKI: Has the Tea Party lost its touch?

Thanks for staying with us this Sunday morning. Another busy hour of news
and politics ahead. It is the 20TH anniversary this morning of the worst
act of domestic terrorism in American history. Two decades after the
bombing of the Murrah federal building in downtown Oklahoma City, we`re
going preview a day full of events out there including remarks by former
President Bill Clinton. Also, it is six years since the Tea Party emerged
as a major force in American politics. Is that faction of the right likely
to have the same kind of impact in 2016? Could we be seeing more Christine
O`Donnells next year?

Also it`s been one week since Hillary Clinton launched her second bid for
the presidency and what a week it`s been. Any more Chipotle security
footage in store as she heads up to New Hampshire? Also getting to be
crunch time for President Obama on a key initiative that is splitting his
Democratic party apart. We will take a look at what that issue is and
where it stands a little later this hour, and also we will take a look at
the make-believe world of the presidency and the new Selena Mayer
administration. That is where "Veep" actor Tony Hale, who plays her body
man Gary, he serves on that job on television, he will join us to talk all
about that show later this hour. But we begin with a birthday.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They huddled in the rain in Washington. Lined up in
the sun in Florida. Along roads, at city halls and city parks, hundreds of
protests with a single message.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are angry and we`re very frustrated.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was today`s national Tea Party. Tea as in taxed
enough already.


KORNACKI: So that was six years ago this week. The first mass gathering
of the Tea Party movement which over the next few months would become a
dominant player in American politics. The Tea Party`s opposition to
Obamacare helped to deny President Obama a single Republican vote for his
health care reform legislation. Tea Party helped chase Pennsylvania
Senator Arlen Specter away from the Republican Party and into the
Democratic Party. They ousted Utah Republican Senator Bob Bennett for a
Tea Party backed challenger, Mike Lee.


FORMER SEN. BOB BENNETT, R-UTAH: The political atmosphere, obviously, has
been toxic. And it`s very clear that some of the votes that I have cast
have added to the toxic environment.


KORNACKI: There were several more Tea Party wins in the 2012 Republican
primaries. Establishment incumbents being knocked out by unknown upstarts
in many cases. But that early success led to some big losses on election
night that year, both for Nevada`s Sharron Angle, whose candidacy gave a
very vulnerable Harry Reid six more years in the Senate. Also, Delaware`s
Christine O`Donnell, who with ads like this one that you might remember,
wasn`t able to convert her primary upset into success on election day.


CHRISTINE O`DONNELL: I`m not a witch. I`m nothing you have heard. I`m


KORNACKI: Fast forward to 2013 and the right wing of the Republican
conference in Congress was able to force an unpopular government shutdown.
The Tea Party`s influence over the GOP is undeniable, and there are
currently three declared presidential candidates whose early Tea Party
support helped to make them U.S. senators. But does the Tea Party still
have the strength to unseat entrenched lawmakers in 2016? Politico is
suggesting the Tea Party has lost its touch. They say what appears to be
John McCain`s clear path to victory in next year`s Republican primary in
Arizona. That path had a lot more obstacles the last time McCain sought
reelection as back in 2010 when he had to double back on his strong support
for immigration reform in this memorable campaign ad.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With all the illegals in America, more than half come
through Arizona.

MCCAIN: Have we got the right plan?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plan`s perfect. You bring troops, state, county and
local law enforcement together.

MCCAIN: And complete the dang fence.


KORNACKI: What influence does the Tea Party have today six years after it
all began and what impact is it going to have in 2016? We will discuss this
with our panel, Republican strategist Mercedes Schlapp, Forbes senior
political contributor Rick Ungar, National Journal`s Lauren Fox, they are
all back with us. We are joined now by Republican Tim Huelskamp,
Republican from Kansas, a member of the House Tea Party caucus, and he
joins us now from Wichita. Congressman, thank you for taking a few minutes
this morning. I guess I wanted to just ask you a big picture question. As
you look back, we say it`s the sixth year anniversary from the start of the
Tea Party movement. You came to Congress in that big Republican class of
2010. When you look back at the last six years and you look at the origins
of the Tea Party movement and where we are now, what would you say is the
biggest success of the Tea Party movement has been?

REP. TIM HUELSKAMP, R-KANSAS: I think we have changed the debate in
Washington. Instead of talking about bigger government and bailouts and
Obamacare, we have talked about the Constitution, smaller government,
reducing taxes. That we haven`t always been successful about making that
happen, but we changed the debate. And I can tell you from my colleagues
that when the phones light up, people start calling in and start e-mailing
in, it does make a difference on the Republican side. It does kill bills
and sometimes it presses forward the conservative alternative.

KORNACKI: On the flip side, when you look at the last six years, what is
the biggest failure?

HUELSKAMP: Probably the biggest failure is to reign in spending. We have
limited the growth, you know. There was a $1.4 trillion deficit. We
dialed that back. But at the end of the day, when Republicans and
Democrats in Washington, the insiders get together, the budget deficit goes
up. We haven`t done much about it. We still have an $18 trillion national
debut. It`s growing every day. We got to do something about it, and
people are still worried across America whether they say they`re members of
the Tea Party or not, they are worried about the future of the American
dream. And we continue to speak to that, and that`s why we`ll continue to
make a difference in Washington.

KORNACKI: What about the role of Tea Party lawmakers like you within the
Republican Party in Washington? One of the more high profile moments of the
last two years, you were very much involved and when John Boehner, the
House speaker, who does not come up through the Tea Party movement like you
did, he basically instituted a purge and you were thrown off of a key
committee post, you and several other Republicans. What is that
relationship now between the Boehner wing and the Tea Party like in

HUELSKAMP: That`s nothing new when you have Washington insiders that are
pushing back against conservatives across America. Washington is not a
conservative town. Washington is about spending more money and taking away
our liberties, and the rest of America say we have had enough. Yes,
there`s going to be a pushback. But don`t forget, the speaker said he was
Tea Party before the Tea Party was cool. He understands that the
conservative ideals, the conservative values of following the Constitution,
protecting life and marriage and liberty. Those are things that are
inherent to the Republican Party. And it seems to be an ongoing game where
insiders say on election day that they are for conservative values, and
then they voted differently. What Tea Party members believe is we should
vote the same way in Washington as we talk at home. Not everybody likes to
do that inside the Beltway.

KORNACKI: To pursue the agenda you want, though, to have sort of the Tea
Party agenda you are looking for, as you look ahead in the next couple of
years, does John Boehner need to be replaced by somebody else for that to

HUELSKAMP: I voted against John Boehner twice. He`s obviously still the
speaker. But what I hear from Americans is they`re ready for some changes,
they are ready for a Republican Party that actually does in Washington what
they say they will do on their platform. I think every Republican that I
know of said they wanted to cut spending, repeal Obamacare, roll back the
president`s illegal and unconstitutional amnesty, and what we have seen in
the last three months is going in the wrong direction. But again when the
phone lines light up, millions of Americans start calling in, that`s when
you see the Tea Party still has a major impact in Washington, D.C.

KORNACKI: All right. Congressman Tim Huelskamp from Kansas, appreciate
you getting up early. Thanks for the time.

HUELSKAMP: Thank you.

KORNACKI: And now for another perspective we are joined by former Ohio
Republican Congressman Steve Latourette in Washington. He is close to
House Speaker John Boehner. Congressman, let me just start with this.
What Tim Huelskamp was just talking about, he mentioned specific issues.
He talked about the repeal of Obamacare. There have been dozens of votes
in the House on this over the last couple of years. He talked about the
president`s executive action on immigration, and again, polling shows
strong support at least for the idea of comprehensive immigration reform.
Given that the Tea Party`s emphasis on those two issues, what do you think
that does to the image of the Republican Party more broadly speaking?

FORMER REP. STEVE LATOURETTE, R-OHIO: Clearly the Tea Party was a
tremendous force in 2010 and moving forward. I think like most successful
movements, though, despite what Congressman Huelskamp said, it`s more from
more of a national platform to a more regional in his part of the world I
guess it continues to be a very powerful force, a very powerful force in
the Republican primary electorate. But I would argue that that has
weakened and waned a little bit in other parts of the country. And while
he`s right, that these are galvanizing issues, the Republicans as a whole,
as a matter of fact, a lot of Americans are not so crazy about the
Affordable Care Act and would like to see immigration addressed but not in
an amnesty like fashion. The white hotness I would argue is not there. It
was there in 2010 and 2012. And the other thing is sometimes we`re our own
worst enemy by the tactics that are employed. We look like we`re
obstructionists rather than trying to find a way to solve some of these big
problems. And I think significantly, what he describes is going in the
wrong direction in the last three months. I would argue we`re going in the
right direction. As a matter of fact, there was a pretty good article in
the Washington Post yesterday about how now it looks like the Republican
conference has gotten it and they`re going to get whatever they can get but
without blowing the place up. And I think where Republicans begin to lose
votes is when they blow up the government, when they shut down the
government. Yes, there`s a red meat portion of the Republican base that
likes that, but that`s not what most Americans in my walk of life are
comfortable with.

KORNACKI: That seems to be, just watching this the last few years, there`s
a sort of tension that seems to drive whether it was the government
shutdown or the showdown over the debt ceiling back in 2011 that seems to
drive this dynamic that I`ve noticed, that if you try to do any kind of a
deal, whether it was the deal that Boehner was going down the road with
Obama, you know, on entitlements back in 2011. Any kind of deal to keep
the government open. It opens up room on the right for somebody to say
this is a sellout. This is a sellout of conservative principles. They are
- they are selling us out again. These are the RINOs. And there is -- I
guess what the Tea Party has shown me is there is a big audience for that.

LATOURETTE: There is a big audience. I would argue that it`s not as big
as it was 2010. And I think that`s why you`ve seen the first three serious
Republican candidates jump into the presidential, Rubio, Paul and Cruz. I
would argue that white hotness is about 30, 35 percent of the Republican
electoral base primary vote, and they can`t wait to jump in that, because
the guy that comes out of that with 10 percent and not 35 percent, it`s
very tough to take that 10 percent and turn it into a workable plurality or
a majority. I think that`s where the competition early is going to be. To
see who can sow up the Tea Party support in the primary and then move

KORNACKI: We just have a few seconds left. I did want to ask you, though,
yesterday up in New Hampshire, the governor of your state, Ohio, looking at
maybe a late entry into this Republican race. He was speaking up there
yesterday. What is your take on John Kasich as a Republican presidential

LATOURETTE: I served with John Kasich, and if you talk to him, he balanced
the budget in 1997. He`s - I think he`s looking for that lane. You have
three governors. I would have argued until recently the Pence business in
Indiana over that piece of legislation, but you have Christie, Kasich and
Pence, where they are all sort of waiting for that lane to open up of the
outside governor. They don`t think that Bush can claim it, so they are
looking to be that dark horse that runs up the inside lane as the governor
with the experience. And I think John Kasich, he sort of delayed making an
announcement, maybe he`s going to say something this weekend. I know he
formed an exploratory committee, and I think he`s trying to euchre Christie
and Pence out of the way and claim that lane for himself. We`ll see.

KORNACKI: All right. Former Congressman Steve Latourette from Ohio,
appreciate you joining us this morning. And still ahead in the show, we go
to the White House. Not the real White House. "Veep" actor Tony Hale is
here, he`s up next.


KORNACKI: Hi, there`s a lot going on this morning. We get caught up on
some of the other headlines making news with our panel. Let us go to "The
Hill" newspaper down there in Washington, D.C. The headline Lindsey
Graham, Clinton campaign tour "something out of North Korea.

So, Lindsey Graham who says he is looking around for president, up in New
Hampshire at that big summit. We were talking about earlier, he was there
yesterday. And he made a reference to Kim Jong-un. Let`s play this clip.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM: This listing to something out of North Korea.


GRAHAM: Would you like to meet the dear leader and ask him anything you
would like?


GRAHAM: How does she get away with this? I don`t know. If you want to
meet her, you`d better be able to run 35 miles an hour ...



KORNACKI: Well, there`s - there`s Lindsey Graham. I don`t know if he`s
running but that does show you, I mean, you know, Ted Cruz was making -
taking shots at Hillary Clinton yesterday. The first speakers on Friday, I
wasn`t hearing many attacks on Hillary Clinton. I certainly was yesterday,
though. This is this ...

SCHLAPP: It`s this one unifying factor of the Republicans right now, which
is going after Hillary. And they are having a lot of fun because there is
a lot to go after.


KORNACKI: Well, there`s the second unifying factor. They also don`t like
Barack Obama. I noticed that one.

UNGAR: That was actually classic Lindsey Graham.

FOX: It was.

UNGAR: He actually had a point in there, but he went over the top as he
always does.

KORNACKI: Yeah, let`s see - let`s see if he stays in this race through the
actual starting time. What else do we have here? This is the Associated
Press email, Affleck asked PBS to not reveal slave owning ancestors. This
comes from the stolen Sony emails. And one of them reveals that
representative for Ben Affleck insisted on censoring the fact that one of
his ancestors owned slaves. He was participating in the PBS show "Finding
Your Roots." That`s hosted by Henry Louis-Kate`s junior. And the email on
July 22, 2014 shows host Gates (ph) writes to Sony USA chief Michael Lynton
asking for advice saying to do this would be a violation of PBS rules,
actually, even for Batman.


KORNACKI: The show put out a statement saying that more interesting
ancestors of the actor emerged, and Gates chose to highlight them in
October`s episode.

UNGAR: I think Ben`s taking himself a little too seriously these days.

FOX: Do you think he`s going to run for Senate?


UNGAR: Not if he behaves like this.

FOX: I agree.

KORNACKI: Yeah, look, I mean and that`s a tough situation. I mean we
would all be ashamed to have that in our family`s past, but ...

UNGAR: Not us.

KORNACKI: It`s in our country`s past, too, in a lot of ways.

FOX: To ignore it I think, you know, makes more out of the issue.

KORNACKI: Yeah, no, they shouldn`t be - if you find that and that`s the
nature of the series then you better put it out there. Well, see, have you
slate from "Slate", "Scary Smart, Do Intelligent People Worry More?" I
like this one, because I`m a chronic worrier.


KORNACKI: So, David Wilson writes, the idea has been around for a while.
The adage that ignorance is bliss suggests the reverse. That knowledge
involves anguish. And now it`s starting to get some scientific validation.
A recent study surveyed more than 100 students at Lake Head University in
Ontario, Canada, asked them to report their levels of worry. The
researchers found that students who agreed with survey statements like I am
always worrying about something scored higher on a verbal intelligence

UNGAR: And here I thought I was just neurotic.


UNGAR: I hope my wife does watch it. See, see, it`s because I`m
supposedly smart.


KORNACKI: It is. I live my life in a perpetual state of terror.

UNGAR: Right.

KORNACKI: I`m calming down my things, but maybe - maybe I`ll wait for the
- Anyway, we`ve got to be catching up right now. Still ahead, the moment
we have been waiting for all morning. Very excited about this "Veep" Tony
Hale joining us right on the other side of the break to discuss the
intertwined worlds of entertainment and politics like this spoof from last
year`s White House correspondents` dinner.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, Lina, what are you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh my god. I thought you were really the president.
Hey, do you want to come and pick me up?




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m your calendar, I`m your Google, I`m your Wilson the

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s a little American.

You know, people want to know who I am and I want to tell them.

There are literally no words.


KORNACKI: That is a moment from the trailer for season four of HBO`s hit
political satire, "Veep." These days the show could be called Potus. In a
real world, we are still 19 months away from the possible election of the
nation`s first female president, but in "Veep," that has already happened.
Selina Meyer is now president of the United States. And helping her every
step of the way is her dedicated body man Kerry Walsh played by the
hilarious Tony Hale. You might also know Tony Hale from the equally great
show "Arrested Development." I`m excited now to have Tony Hale join us
live from L.A. where he has gotten up at an ungodly hour this morning.
Thank you for doing that. I really appreciate it. So, let`s just - let me
start with this. The character that you play on "Veep," the body man for
the vice president and now the president, this is a real role in politics.
You know, presidents, major leaders have a body person. Tell us about that
role and did you have any research that sort of required to do that?

TONY HALE, ACTOR, "VEEP": Yeah, it`s called the body man. He`s a guy who
always carries around a bag and has pretty much anything that his person
needs, his representative, and typically people do this in their 20s. And
they are -- with a politician, 24 hours a day. They have no social life.
They never see their families and then they go on to do other stuff. My
character has stuck into his 40s because he has no identity outside of
Selina Meyer. And he, you know, worships her - I mean she is his queen.
So, pretty much if she ever leaves office he`s still going to be carrying
her purse to the grocery store because that is his life. He loves it.

KORNACKI: Now as - the show is "Veep." The first three seasons she`s the
vice president. Now she`s the president. How has that transitioned for
her going from that - you know, number two position to leading the country?
How has that affected your character`s relationship with her, your role on
the show?

HALE: Yeah, I mean, well, her being president alone, is the country`s in
trauma. Let`s acknowledge that. But I think, you know, she`s obviously
had to bump up her game. And Gary is - my character is not great about
bumping up his game. Like he was very content with just being by her side
as vice president because with president, he doesn`t have as much access to
her. And Gary would rather her scream obscenities at him than distance
herself from him. That`s like emotional suicide for Gary. So, he`s not in
a good place. He`s having a really difficult time.

UNGAR: Tony it`s Rick Ungar, a very loyal fan of your show. I notice the
last - in last week`s episode, the first one of the season, your character
is really being pushed out of things.

HALE: Yes.

UNGAR: You talked about not having access. He`s being purposely left out
of the room. What is he going to do about that going forward?

HALE: Oh, what is poor little Gary going to do about it? Well, this
episode coming up tonight, he breaks.


HALE: He breaks. And something comes to the surface where I think it does
draw them a little closer.
But again, he has - this has been his nightmare that. He thought this
might be coming with her as president and this has surfaced. And it`s not
a good day for Gary.

KORNACKI: There`s a good tease. Well, let me put a couple of quotes on
the screen. These jumped out at me looking at what real politicians say
about your show. So, Martin O`Malley, the former governor of Maryland,
he`s running for president or might be running for president, he was asked,
"Veep" or "House of Cards?" His answer, "Veep", it`s more realistic.
White House senior advisor Dan Pfeifer was - who`s has to - he said the
more you know about politics in Washington, the funnier it is talking about
your show. Take us if you would, maybe just sort of behind the scenes
about how this show comes together. How do you guys - What do you guys do
to try to get politics right?

HALE: Well, thank, but someone says it`s right like - we are in trouble.


HALE: But I do think - interestingly enough, the man who created, like
Armando Iannucci and the writer Simon Blackwell and Tony Roche, they are
all - they are all British, and it`s interesting their perspective of
American politics.

However, what I - and we kind of have this interesting process where you
rehearse about two or three weeks before we shoot. Just the kind of - and
find the chemistry, but what I love about the show is in politics people
are kind of put on this pedestal, and you hear these perfect soundbytes and
the posturing, but you know they have to go behind the scenes and lose
their minds. You know they have to get insecure. You know they have to
look at each other sometimes to go I don`t know what the hell is going on.
I don`t know what I`m going to say. And so, I love that we show a glimpse
of that because they`re human beings. And there`s - and people forget
that. They forget that humanity.

KORNACKI: And you also - I mean obviously now that she`s the president is
different, but just sort of the indignity of playing that number two roll.
Either vice president who in her cases is overlooked by and is just sort of
- just ignored by, you know, the president and now she`s in a position
where she has to decide how she`s going to treat her own vice president.
It`s interesting to watch. You know, she is sort of - oh, I would never
want him to endure what I`ve gone through before, but then, of course,
she`s subjecting him to it already, I can see.

HALE: Yeah, and I love that chic. There`s a line where she goes, she says
yeah, I wouldn`t want him to endure it, but she`s like - but you know what,
the precedent`s been set.


KORNACKI: Nothing you can do about it I guess.

HALE: There`s nothing you can do about it.

KORNACKI: Let me just - I - to ask you this question, before - because
there`s a lot of viewers who would probably kill me if I don`t. There was
a rumor on the story that came out in "The Entertainment Weekly" a couple
of weeks ago about a possible return of "Arrested Development." You`ve got
to run the air for a few years. You guys did the 15 new episodes about two
years ago. Anything to this?

HALE: Yeah, I, of course, get all of my news from the Internet. So, that
was the first I heard, too. I do know that whether it`s, you know, seven
episodes or 17 we would all jump at the chance to do it again because we
have such admire ration for Mitch`s writing and the surprises that he
brings up.
So we would all just at the chance.

KORNACKI: I love to hear that, because I am one of those people that if
you put 7 episodes or 17 episodes up, I will watch them within hours, it`s
such an incredible show.

HALE: I have to say really quickly that you guys have had a plate of
donuts in front of you for the past hour and I`ve been watching and not one
person has touched it.

KORNACKI: You noticed that.

HALE: And that is some serious discipline.

KORNACKI: You`re giving me ideas. Tony Hale, we will send one of these
donuts out to you. Thank you for your appearance on our show today. Tony
Hale from the HBO series, "Veep." It`s on tonight. Thank you for joining
us. Appreciate it.

And still ahead, President Obama and Republicans agreeing on something that
most Democrats oppose. It actually happened this past week in Washington,
and we will tell you what it was all about. And next.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the Scooby van is coming up right here behind our


KORNACKI: Any time a presidential candidate travels in a vehicle called
the Scooby van, you know you`re in for a wild ride. A look at the over
the top coverage of Hillary Clinton`s first week on the campaign trail.



KORNACKI: And the Scooby van is coming up right here. Right behind our
camera. Here it is. There she goes. And Secret Service following behind
her. Okay. They`re going around to the back. So we`re not going to --
You can see the media running behind me here to chase the Scooby van.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she`s going around to the back.


We will see her very soon. We will see her very soon.

The guy in the orange pants is pretty quick. Alex, I`m looking at these
people. Wow. Orange pants is really outnumbered now by all the people
that are racing around the back. I am glad you have not taken off from
your live shot and you remain with me.


KORNACKI: Welcome to the media circus that was the opening week of Hillary
Clinton`s presidential campaign. That is what it looked like Tuesday, on
the first day of campaigning in the Hawkeye State. Just getting to Iowa
turned out to be a highway of hype as well. Clinton stopped at a gas
station in Pennsylvania, made national news. So did the chicken burrito
bowl she ordered at a Mexican restaurant in Ohio. As you can see in this
tweet from the New York Times` Amy Chozik (ph), her events attracted five
or six times as many reporters as there were participants. With Hillary
headed to New Hampshire tomorrow, so far this is not your father`s
presidential campaign. Or your mother`s.


JON STEWART, HOST, DAILY SHOW: What are we doing here, people? There are a
lot of good reasons for you to be chasing the van. If the van was perhaps
the good humor truck. And you were five. If Zane (ph) was in the van, and
you were five.


KORNACKI: Jane Hall joins the panel now. She`s a journalism professor at
American University`s School of Communication focusing on media and
politics. So Jane, we talked earlier about Jon Stewart opening up about
why he is leaving "The Daily Show." I think that clip maybe explains it.
He is sick of having these sort of media circuses every night on his show.
I`m curious. That scene we showed at the beginning of those reporters
running across the lawn in Iowa, when the Clinton van appeared, and there
are like hundreds of reporters there to cover her for an event where she
will talk to maybe ten people. Is this excessive?

JANE HALL, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Yes, it is. It`s also irresistible. I
can`t tell you how many times I`ve seen that video replayed. It`s very
funny. We do have to draw a distinction. If you`re a camera crew and she
goes to a different entrance, you are forced to chase her. They have been
forced into celebrity sightings. It`s political theater TMZ celebrity
sightings. But her goal is different. Her goal is to get to people and
have them hear her positions on things in a controlled setting with
friendly people. I disagree with the fact that she didn`t make news in a
sense, because some of the positions she staked out are more like Bernie
Sanders and the progressive agenda. She said some things in a very
controlled settling, but of course the media who are on the trail are
really reduced to looking pretty ridiculous. I think a lot of people don`t
even mind the fact that the media look ridiculous. She`s almost playing to
that, I think.

KORNACKI: What about one the one hand, it`s incredibly trivial, and it
certainly seems like the easiest example of overkill there is, the Chipotle
stuff this week. I think we can show some of the headlines that were out
there this week. This is just a taste of the kind of coverage that this is
a candidate for president stopping to get lunch, and it became -- yet at
the same time I have to tell you, I read the whole story about her visit.
I looked at the surveillance footage, I was kind of fascinated by it. On
another sense, you recognize she`s a former first lady. She has not driven
a car I think in 20 years, she is removed from the day to day scene, so to
see her standing in line at a fast food restaurant is kind of something.

HALL: It reminded me of that feature in celebrity magazine. Celebrities
are just like us, they go and get groceries and eat lunch. I think the
celebrity factor for her is enormous. She is trying to back off and her
advisers -- and she wanted to back off. She apparently from what I read is
the one who wanted to drive as opposed to descend from a plane. She`s
trying, and they are setting up these situations for her to connect with
the people. And the media are sort of different from that. They want
something more substantive, but if they don`t get it, they`re going to fill
the vacuum, and that is what I think happened. News abhors vacuum in a lot
of ways. We will get to the more serious stuff, but I think the media lost
this round pretty badly.

KORNACKI: Let me get the panel in here. I am curious, just watching this
unfold this week, watching it through the media, I`ll tell you one thing,
when I saw the Chipotle thing, my initial reaction was, I`m a pretty
cynical person, my initial reaction was the campaign had to coordinate
this. This is the ultimate sort of viral thing.

UNGAR: Probably the one thing they did not coordinate.

SCHLAPP: We live in a different time. There is the Twitter, the Facebook,
the Instagram. It`s in an instant, anything that is on a surveillance
camera can end up, and we saw that with the ESPN reporter Britt McHenry.
Yes, the candidates have to be cautious everywhere they go. It`s just the
times we`re living in.

UNGAR: I do have an idea where the four of us can make some good money.
We will take the Scooby van and we`re going to mat it against all these
different places in America, because if that`s all she`s going to show,
we`ll just license that to the newspapers. We`ll save a fortune in travel
for the reporters and we will make money. What do you think?


FOX: People analyzing what was in her burrito bowl. What does that say
about what kind of candidate she is going be? It`s a little ridiculous.
But there is a point too if she`s not making news in other ways, you know,
editors expect stories. What are we going to write about? I guess it will
be her visit to Chipotle.

KORNACKI: Jane, that`s a really good point. We have got 19 months of this
campaign ahead of us, and there are so many people covering politics, so
many outlets covering politics right now. They need fresh content
basically constantly throughout the day. This is probably what we can
expect for 19 months.

HALL: It is. And the networks all have young people who are charged with
getting everything. And if they miss something, if she trips, and you
didn`t get it, you don`t have a job or a career going forward. So there is
an element where in a way I think I wish we`d all back off, let her do her
thing, why do we have to chase her. That would be a radical notion.
Everybody is chasing the trivia. She is going to have to speak
substantively. She is going to have to do interviews. As I said, I think
there are things that journalists in the Washington Post and "New York
Times" did write about. They weren`t chasing her. They were trying to
analyze what she was saying, so we shouldn`t beat up on the media too much
I don`t think about this.

KORNACKI: Still, it is one of those indelible scenes that I think we will
play back a few times. That lawn chase. Anyway, thanks to Jane Hall of
American University. Appreciate the time this morning.

HALL: Thank you.

KORNACKI: And up next, we will go live to Oklahoma City. That city, this
nation remembering 20 years since one of the worst terrorist attacks in
American history.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A massive car bomb exploded outside of a large federal
building in downtown Oklahoma City, shattering that woman, killing
children, killing federal employees, military men and civilians.


KORNACKI: That was Tom Brokaw on the NBC Nightly News 20 years ago
tonight. The day of the bombing of the Alfred P. Murrah federal building
in downtown Oklahoma City killed 168 people. 19 of them were children. A
ceremony to mark the anniversary began moments ago. NBC`s Kelly O`Donnell
covered the bombing`s aftermath back in 1995. She has been following the
survivors` recoveries, all of these years since, and she is back in
Oklahoma City. That`s where she joins us from this morning.

Kelly, obviously a somber anniversary. Can you just give us a sense of
what`s going on there, what we can expect today.

KELLY O`DONNELL, NBC: Good morning, Steve. There are families here
numbering about 4,000 people who have come back to gather together. I`ve
been talking to some of them this morning, and many tell me this is the one
day a year where they all come together, and some of the memories are happy
memories. And for many, 20 marked a very difficult year. I`ve talked to
many families this morning who say this one was particularly hard, I think
in part because it marked such a span of time, really a generation has

In the last few days, we have been meeting off with some of the families
who have lost so much, some who were part of the original bombing and have
been recovering for years, some who lost a loved one that day. They all
come together here and the ceremony has just begun. It is a quiet place
here, very serene. President Clinton, who was in office at that time, will
be the final speaker today. But we will also hear the names read of all
168 who were killed by those who loved them, some of their family members,
some including siblings who were born after the events of 1995. This is a
way to honor their lives, to mark this day, not just for the families and
those immediately affected but the broader Oklahoma City community. Here
they talk about the Oklahoma standard and they are asking people today to
do something as an act of kindness, to honor those that were killed here,
and to do some form of service as a way to say that this is a community
that has done a lot of healing, even through much pain and much sadness
here. There are friendships that have been formed. There are certainly
memories that are very rich, and today they come together to remember.

KORNACKI: All right. NBC News` Kelly O`Donnell in Oklahoma City. Thank
you for that. You will be able to hear President Clinton`s remarks at that
memorial service once he starts speaking. We will carry that live for you
here on MSNBC. That`s coming up in just a little while. But first,
President Obama making headway this week on historic agreement. But
members of his own party aren`t necessarily on board. Why he says he`s
willing to defy them next.


KORNACKI: A lot of what happens in Washington seems pretty easy to predict
these days. If President Obama supports something, chances are the
Republicans will reject it. The GOP`s own bills will be dismissed by the
Democrats as too far to the right. But there was news this week that
seemed to break those well worn notions. An agreement struck by key
congressional committee leaders to move toward completing a long delayed
trade deal called the TransPacific partnership or TPP. The Democratic and
Republican leaders of the Senate Finance Committee, along with Chairman
Paul Ryan of the House Ways & Means Committee agreeing to allow President
Obama to pursue an agreement that would be fast tracked through Congress
with an up or down vote without any changes to that agreement. But the
rift this time isn`t between President Obama and congressional Republicans.
It is a schism within his own party, within and among Democrats, labor
unions, environmental groups, liberal activists, are coming out against the
deal. That puts them at odds with President Obama. The president firing
back at the critics within his own party at a press conference on Friday.


OBAMA: Being opposed to this new trade agreement is essentially a
ratification of the status quo, where a lot of folks are selling here but
we are not selling there.


KORNACKI: NBC White House correspondent Kristen Welker joins us live.
Kristen, in terms of what the White House does here, they are at odds with
their own party. Will they get their way on this?

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS: Well, look. I think you will continue to see
President Obama try to sell this deal to the American people in an effort
to harness political support from members of his own party. That could
include some road trips, I`m told. The president`s main message here to
his critics is that the deal has labor and environmental provisions to
protect U.S. workers. He also notes that, and you heard him reference that
in his comments, that 95 percent of the world`s markets are outside of the
U.S. Essentially he`s arguing if the U.S. doesn`t have a role in these
type of trade deals, American businesses, American workers are going to be
left behind, ultimately. The president brushed aside as you noted, Steve,
the notion that this is going to divide the Democratic Party somehow
heading into 2016.

But the reality is it is a very divisive issue. The labor unions are
firmly against the deal. They say it`s going to cost jobs. Progressive
Senator Elizabeth Warren, who as you know is getting a lot of pressure to
run for president has been vocally criticizing the deal. And standing
firmly with unions, all of that`s putting pressure on the Democratic front
runner Hillary Clinton, who of course needs the Warren branch of the party
in 2016. So it is politically divisive, but I think you will continue to
hear President Obama defend this deal to the American people. By the way,
he`s also getting some pressure to show progress on this before the prime
minister of Japan visits in just a few weeks. Steve?

KORNACKI: Kristen Welker live at the White House. Thanks for that. The
debate on this trade deal, as Kristen is talking about there, spilling over
to the 2016 race. Former Maryland Governor Martin O`Malley, who has hinted
that he might run for president against Hillary Clinton, he calls the
TransPacific Partnership a bad trade deal. He`s against it. Hillary
Clinton this week issued a statement saying she will be watching details of
any agreement before deciding whether to support it or oppose it.

Warring Democrats isn`t what President Obama is looking for nor Hillary
Clinton as she tries to build a broad coalition at the start of her

Let`s turn back to the panel now, looking at how Democrats move forward on
this. We talked about it earlier in the show. We talked about Hillary
Clinton and what position she`s taking. This to me is a perfect example of
something. Clearly she doesn`t want to weigh in on this right now. You
have Elizabeth Warren and the labor unions on one side, you got the
president on the other. If you`re a Democrat running for president, you
don`t want to be in the middle of this. How long can she sit it out?

UNGAR: She`s smart. I listened to Governor O`Malley say it is a bad trade
deal. Tell us, Governor, what`s in the trade deal? I don`t know. None of
us know . We are all forming opinions based on how we reacted to NAFTA.

KORNACKI: That`s a big thing, right? The past trade deals have really
animated the Democratic base of today against these things.

UNGAR: Why won`t anybody say let`s wait and see what`s in this deal.

SCHLAPP: For Hillary Clinton this could be a flip-flop moment. In 2012
she came out and said the TPP is a gold standard for trade agreements.
Again, she`s walking a very fine line when it comes to the trade agreement.

UNGAR: You had to remind us.


KORNACKI: What do you think?

FOX: I think the president has to be very careful. It is a rare
opportunity to work with congressional Republicans. When Mitch McConnell
was re-elected, in his speech he gives this big moment where he said I will
work with the president on trade. This is the president`s big moment and I
think he has to be careful. And I think Hillary Clinton is smart to maybe
wait out, see where the details are. Because she can`t win with her base
before her primary if she comes out for this. She also might look like
maybe she won`t negotiate with Republicans on Capitol Hill, and we`ll have
a repeat of the dysfunction we have seen over the last eight years in the
Obama administration.

KORNACKI: Right. If you are Hillary Clinton and you have to be strategic
about these breaks with the administration on anything. That`s a good
point. If you are breaking with the administration, it happens to be the
one time they have agreement with Republicans. Maybe that`s not the
message you want.

UNGAR: Mercedes, you have to listen to what she said. She`s right.
Hillary did come out in favor of this deal in a major way going back a few
years, so she is in a tough spot here.

KORNACKI: In terms of the room on her left, it`s interesting, Martin
O`Malley coming out against this and Elizabeth Warren being against this.
Rick, you`re saying NAFTA. That`s an agreement from 20 years ago. That
was the signature trade deal under Bill Clinton in the `90S. That is
something, Bill Clinton had to fight his own party, the labor unions to get
that through. And the legacy of NAFTA is amazing. 20 years later how it
affects the Democratic base of today. They are skeptical of any trade

UNGAR: I don`t know about you. I have yet to see data that really shows
us how much impact -- positive or negative -- it had on American workers.
There is a built in concern level. If you`re a Democrat as I am, your
tendency is to side with the unions and all that, but we don`t really know
what we`re talking about.

KORNACKI: We will leave it at that for right now. Thank you for getting
up with us today. Thanks to the panel for joining us this morning. Also,
you can catch more of me not on the weekend but during the week with
special guests every Monday night on meerkat. Haven`t heard of it? Google
it, get the app, and check us out. Tomorrow night we`ll be joined by Alex
Witt, host of MSNBC`s (inaudible). Ask us anything you want.

Plus, we have to say good-bye this morning to one of our own. Producer
Jack Bohr (ph) has been instrumental in everything this show has done and
become in the past two years. He`s headed off to greener pastures. We
want to thank him for that. You`re looking at him. There`s his "UP" debut
on screen now. Thank you, Jack. Enjoy getting up at 1:00 in the morning
for your new job. You will have a blast with that.

Anyway, up next is Melissa Harris-Perry. Stay tuned for that. We`ll see
you next weekend. Have a great week.


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