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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Thursday, April 23rd

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Show: THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
Date: April 23, 2015
Guest: Eugene Robinson, Nina Burleigh, David Corn, Michael Brendan
Dougherty

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, HOST, THE LAST WORD: Hey, Steve, Tom Brady couldn`t
make it to the White House?

KORNACKI: He was busy with Gisele maybe --

O`DONNELL: He was too --

KORNACKI: I don`t know --

O`DONNELL: He was too busy there. You should have taken his place at that
thing.

KORNACKI: I`m sure that they would have loved me there --

O`DONNELL: They would have loved you, thanks Steve.

KORNACKI: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Well, there is panic, real panic in Bush world tonight, now
that there is a new front-runner for the Republican presidential nomination
and Hillary Clinton is facing new questions about the Clinton Foundation.

And on the lighter side of the news, if a two-minute trailer is any
indication, there is a new front-runner for the best actor Oscar for next
year, Johnny Depp is really back.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the secret?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s the family -- it`s the family secret.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Rubio on the rise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Florida Senator Marco Rubio holds the lead.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s listen --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, listen --

(MUSIC)

JIMMY FALLON, COMEDIAN & TELEVISION HOST: Marco Rubio`s presidential
campaign has raised $40 million in the last week. Clearly, Rubio`s
announcement gave him a bump there.

Rubio is like, any chance I could drop out of the race and just keep the
$40 million? That is it --

(LAUGHTER)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He also gets praised for effectively setting up a
"generational contracts with Hillary Clinton."

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Full of bad day in Clinton`s world on two fronts.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She faces a wide world of political scrutiny.

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES:
I think the Benghazi Committee is doing fine work.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, the GOP-led house committee is investigating
Benghazi --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That comes amid a barrage of headlines on the Clinton
family charity and its dealings.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s going to have to be held accountable like all of
us about dealings, that`s part of the process, right?

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As president and as
commander in chief, I take full responsibility for all our counterterrorism
operations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today, President Obama took responsibility and
apologized.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The U.S. drone strike killed two western hostages
including an American aid worker --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Killed in a U.S. drone strike against a suspected al
Qaeda compound in January --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This will certainly raise questions about the use of
drones.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are going to throw a lot of things against the
wall and hope that one of their arguments resonate with just one juror.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Defense lawyers began presenting their witnesses on
Monday hoping to spare him the death penalty.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A volcano in Chile dormant for 40 years suddenly
exploding six miles high, spewing a lot of ash and debris.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Witnesses say the twin blast sounded like bombs, a
fiery mix of lava and lightning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Senate will be in order.

OBAMA: I`ve been looking forward to saying this, I am very pleased that
Loretta Lynch has now been confirmed.

(CHEERS)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), MINORITY LEADER, UNITED STATES HOUSE OF
REPRESENTATIVES: At long last, this embarrassment for the Senate is over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Just ten days after announcing his candidacy, Marco Rubio woke
up this morning as the new front-runner for the Republican nomination for
president.

Fifteen percent of Republican voters say they would vote for Marco Rubio.
According to a new Quinnipiac poll, Jeb Bush comes in second with 13
percent.

Marco Rubio also does best among Republicans when matched against Hillary
Clinton. They`re in a statistical tie with Clinton at 45 percent and Rubio
at 43 percent, which is within the margin of error of that poll.

Hillary Clinton made a public appearance today in New York City speaking at
the Women in the World Summit, but she did not comment on a massive new
"New York Times" report today inspired by that new book that is not yet
released "Clinton Cash".

The report by the "New York Times" reporters Jo Becker and Mike McIntire
carried the headline, "cash flowed to Clinton Foundation as Russians
pressed for control of uranium company."

The article describes the Russian takeover of a Canadian company with vast
uranium mining holdings around the world.

The "Times" report says, "at the heart of the tale are several men, leaders
of the Canadian mining industry who have been major donors to the
charitable endeavors of former President Bill Clinton and his family.

Members of that group built, financed and eventually sold off to the
Russians a company that would become known as Uranium One.

Uranium One`s chairman used his family foundation to make four donations
totaling $2.35 million, those contributions were not publicly disclosed by
the Clintons despite an agreement Mrs. Clinton had struck with the Obama
White House to publicly identify all donors.

Other people with ties to the company made donations as well. And shortly
after the Russians announced their intention to acquire a majority stake in
Uranium One, Mrs. Clinton received -- Mr. Clinton received $500,000 for a
Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the "Kremlin"
that was promoting Uranium One stock."

In response to the "New York Times" article, the Clinton campaign said
today, "the essential fact is that Hillary Clinton was not involved in the
State Department`s review of the sale to the Russians.

While it is true that the State Department sits on the multi agency
intergovernmental panel that reviews deals like this when Hillary Clinton
herself did not participate in the review or direct the department to take
any position on the sale of Uranium One."

We`re joined at the round table tonight by Eugene Robinson, columnist for
"The Washington Post" and an Msnbc political analyst, also David Corn,
"Mother Jones" Washington Bureau chief and an Msnbc political analyst.

Here in New York, Nina Burleigh, national politics correspondent for
"Newsweek" and Michael Brendan Dougherty, senior correspondent for "The
Week" magazine.

So, Gene Robinson, I guess maybe tomorrow the Clinton campaign will release
the State Department e-mails that show that Hillary Clinton had nothing to
do with this decision --

(LAUGHTER)

As secretary of state. I tried to finish that with a straight face.

EUGENE ROBINSON, COLUMNIST, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yes, I know, and we`ll
wait with bated breath to see when those e-mails come out.

But my reading of the Clinton Foundation`s statement too also dealt with
some sort of Canadian -- not subsidiary, but linked foundation for which
they don`t disclose donations, it`s all very complicated.

And I think people are going to want to give it more scrutiny.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Hillary Clinton said at her confirmation
hearing in 2009 about this kind of disclosure which she then promised.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE: No president has ever
disclosed the contributions to his foundation.

So when my husband agreed to disclose the contributions to his foundation,
that was a very unprecedented event, which he was happy to do.

But the Clinton Global Initiative, which is separate from the foundation
has always disclosed the contributions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Nina Burleigh, this -- so this was not just a promise she made
to the Obama administration as a condition of employment, it was a promise
she made in her Senate confirmation hearing.

NINA BURLEIGH, NATIONAL POLITICS CORRESPONDENT, NEWSWEEK: Well, I think
that the problem with this is mainly the Saudi -- to me, the Saudi amounts
of money.

They`re gigantic. I mean they`re tens of millions of dollars from Gulf
countries that are -- have abysmal human rights records.

And the money that they`re taking from those countries, I think, is more
problematic than the Canadian -- the Canadian mining interests.

So, you know, the -- what we`re going to see are people looking into
Canadian tax records and Canadian documents for a very long time.

O`DONNELL: You were at this speech that she gave today in New York. Was
there -- was there any indirect veiled reference to any of this?

BURLEIGH: Not a bit. But I was also at Chelsea Clinton`s talk this
morning at the Council on Foreign Relations and she did field a few
questions on it.

And of course, she said that the Clinton Foundation`s transparency is
legendary, and that they have stopped taking money from foreign countries.

And again, on the -- she was asked about the Saudi -- the Gulf money and
how it interacts with their responses to these, you know, human rights
violations.

And she wasn`t really -- she deferred to the issue of American gender
inequality as opposed to the way that the Saudis treat their -- treat their
women.

O`DONNELL: We have some of what Chelsea Clinton said there today, let`s
listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHELSEA CLINTON, DAUGHTER OF BILL AND HILLARY CLINTON: We have always
partnered with no government, NGOs, foundations to believe the work we do
is important.

What the Clinton Foundation has said is that we will be kind of even more
transparent, even though Transparency International and others have said we
are among the most transparent foundations.

We`ll disclose donors at a quarterly basis and not just an annual basis.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: David Corn, everything she said is absolutely true. It`s just
that this was the only foundation where -- that had a secretary of state in
the family at the time and that has imposed unique burdens on this
particular foundation.

DAVID CORN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, MOTHER JONES: Yes, and the next
president and perhaps, you know, future president all in the family. I`m
not even counting Chelsea there.

You know, the Clintons are perhaps the most powerful, most recognizable
family and raw players we have in America.

And you know, a lot of the work of the Clinton Global Initiative and the
Clinton Foundation does is quite admirable and I`m glad they`re raising
money for it.

But at the same time, they`re also raising money for themselves, they make,
you know, tremendous money -- I mean $500,000 a speech for Bill Clinton,
really?

This guy, you know, you can see him on YouTube as much as you like, why are
they paying so much money for him particularly while his wife is secretary
of state and a future potential president of the United States.

And it seems from the very get-go, they have not really clearly thought
through what this says about their image and how they present themselves,
how they present the political message.

The same thing goes with their association with Goldman Sachs. They get a
lot of money from Goldman Sachs, in fact, they`ve held fund-raising events
for the Clinton Foundation at the headquarters of Goldman Sachs.

While at the same time Hillary Clinton is trying to be more Elizabeth
Warren-like in a populist way. All this stuff ends up cutting against each
other.

And I know -- and I think there may not be anything inappropriate or wrong
or illegal, not saying there isn`t, but there may not be.

But nevertheless, it really complicates the message they`re trying to send
politically while they`re also trying to be global actors.

O`DONNELL: Michael, I think the Clinton campaign released tonight about
Hillary did not make the decision for the State Department about letting
that deal go through.

Is one of those funny pieces of honesty in politics where you actually do
admit or forced to admit, and the office holder doesn`t really do these
things, it`s all done at the staff level.

MICHAEL BRENDAN DOUGHERTY, THE WEEK: Right --

O`DONNELL: The office holder is flying a plane around somewhere having
meetings with people.

And so I completely accept, I will be very surprised to discover that no,
Hillary was really hands-on on, you know, certified in this kind of deal.

Thus this stuff is delegated -- there`s usually and I`ll bet they will turn
out to be a very large e-mail pile in the State Department, not hers, but
others, advisory e-mails saying yes, this is what we should do with this
deal.

DOUGHERTY: Right, and of course, but the conflict of interest that`s
inherent in the Clinton Global Initiative and the Clinton Foundation and
Hillary Clinton in Secretary of State also extends to subordinates.

I mean, Hillary Clinton is also the boss of those people under her making
those decisions who may be aware of her interests or whether -- or her
feelings on any particular matter if they`ve been expressed to them.

Whether that`s been in a written document or not, whether that`s in one of
the thirty thousand e-mails that somehow caught on fire in Chappaqua
beforehand, or whether that was -- it was just a wink and a nod.

Either -- the -- what we`re going to see, I think for a long time is the
media sorting through the post presidency of Bill Clinton, which has not
been painting pictures of his feet in a bathtub --

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: Right --

DOUGHERTY: Right?

O`DONNELL: Right --

DOUGHERTY: But going from being dead broke as Hillary Clinton said, to
becoming a very rich family in league with the Bushes and other major
families, not quite at the Romney level yet, but they`ve received this
money practically from friends as practically been donated to them.

So this is going to be a campaign of sorting through Clinton ethics rather
than ideology.

O`DONNELL: Here is my prediction on this. That I don`t believe that we
are going to find that the bottom of one of these stories a decision made
by Hillary Clinton as secretary of state that was affected by any of this.

That in the conflict of interest, you can choose the right interests. That
-- you know, there are two interests and one of them is right and one of
them is polluted and it is entirely possible to choose the right one.

And I suspect that`s what she did, especially with the advice of the State
Department staff. Eugene, before we take a break here, Jeb Bush finds
himself in second place now.

I said to a former Republican --

ROBINSON: Right --

O`DONNELL: Congressman from Florida this morning on this network, who is
on this network three hours every morning, Joe Scarborough --

ROBINSON: Yes --

O`DONNELL: I said, you know, when this poll came up in the show this
morning with Joe, I said, hey, Joe, does Jeb Bush go into panic mode over
this?

And he said they are going to be very worried. We now have this report
from "POLITICO", that special meeting of the Bush campaign, emergency
meeting, what do we do?

This is happening fast now.

ROBINSON: Yes, it is happening fast. And, you know, he wanted to just --
the shock and awe, right?

O`DONNELL: Yes --

ROBINSON: He just wanted to get --

O`DONNELL: Yes --

ROBINSON: Everybody else out of the way, raise all the money, scare
everybody else out who could possibly get the --

CORN: It`s working as good as --

ROBINSON: First establishment thought --

CORN: It`s working as good as the Iraq invasion did --

ROBINSON: Well, exactly --

(LAUGHTER)

It`s working just that well. He did, and in fact, until now you`ve got
flavor of the week or the month potentially, Marco Rubio who, guess what?

Also potentially gets you Florida which you have to have if you`re a
Republican running for president. So I think -- I think this plane is in
trouble.

I know, I wouldn`t say yet this is going down, but it`s -- you know, one of
the engines seems to be fluttering.

O`DONNELL: All right, everybody just stay in place, we`re going to take a
quick break here, when we come back, the drone attack that President Obama
took full responsibility for today and had to apologize for.

And late breaking details from the "New York Times" about how that drone
mistake killed two hostages.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: President Obama went to the White House briefing room today to
announce the tragic, unintended consequences of a drone strike on an al
Qaeda compound in Pakistan, the death of two humanitarians, American Warren
Weinstein and an Italian aid worker Giovanni Lo Porto.

Who were unknown to U.S. authorities being held hostage there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: As president and as commander in chief, I take full responsibility
for all our counterterrorism operations, including the one that
inadvertently took the lives of Warren and Giovanni.

I profoundly regret what happened. On behalf of the United States
government, I offer our deepest apologies to the families.

It is a cruel and bitter truth that in the fog of war generally and our
fight against terrorists specifically, mistakes, sometimes deadly mistakes
can occur.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: A "New York Times" article posted tonight describes in chilling
detail how U.S. counterterrorism forces discovered the deadly mistake.

"The first sign that something had gone terribly wrong was when officers
from the Central Intelligence Agency saw that six bodies had been pulled
from the smoldering rubble instead of four.

When six bodies were taken from the wreckage and hastily burned, it was a
clear signal that the spy agency had made a deadly mistake.

It took weeks for the extent of the disaster to be revealed, that the two
additional bodies were those of an American and Italian hostage."

David Corn, the price, the inevitable price of drone warfare.

CORN: It is. It`s the price of our warfare, there`s collateral damages, a
lot of people have been killed, a lot of Afghan civilians have been killed
from the very beginning of the war and even without drones.

And I mean I think it was, you know, a bit of a -- of a change to see the
President come out and make just an outright apology for this, which is
something we`re still waiting for from, say, George W. Bush and Dick
Cheney.

I don`t think it`s going to come anytime soon. But it does lead to this
question about the ethics and legality of using drones and whether, you
know, the -- basically the accountability and the controls we have are
sufficient.

While at the same time, anytime you send a tactical team in, a
counterterrorism team in a situation like this, the exact same thing could
happen.

But it`s a very perplexing issue. The President did not use the word
drones in his statement today, but you know, more and more of this is
coming out in the public and I think a full public review and a public
review of drone policy is now certainly called for.

O`DONNELL: Michael, your reaction.

DOUGHERTY: I mean, I may sound like a radical on this, but this is the
kind of war that terrorists want to draw us into, where we make mistakes
like this.

And this is the price we`re going to pay as long as we follow the policies
set by Bush and even somewhat by Clinton before him, of not treating
terrorism as a law enforcement exercise, but treating it as a global war.

You know, the statements originally came out and said near the Pakistan-
Afghanistan border which is code for in Pakistan --

O`DONNELL: In Pakistan --

DOUGHERTY: Where we --

O`DONNELL: Yes --

DOUGHERTY: Haven`t actually declared war. But these authorizations and
military forces are going to use a sort of a kind of an unending blank
check for strikes like this against known terror targets and signature
strikes against people that we don`t know, but that they`re terrorist-
looking from the skies.

So we are paying a very heavy moral price for this policy, and I hope that
eventually this do cause us to debate it.

O`DONNELL: And Nina, this is a point that John Kerry raised years ago got
condemned for what Michael is just referring to.

The notion of do you militarize this response to terror or do you -- do you
basically heighten your policing?

You basically -- the techniques you would use to go after these people in a
much narrower way?

BURLEIGH: Well, I mean before 9/11, that`s what we were doing. We were,
you know, approaching this with a police thing.

I mean, they had the original bombers of the -- original bombers of the
World Trade Center on trial here in New York.

Mary Jo White, the federal prosecutor was prosecuting them. The FBI was
over investigating and treating it as a law enforcement matter.

And, of course, after 9/11, thousands of people dead, it became a different
story.

ROBINSON: But the -- what --

BURLEIGH: It was unfortunate because they should -- they -- I think they
should be treating it as -- personally, I think they should be treating all
of it as a law enforcement issue.

And furthermore, you know, it`s nice to see the President come out and
apologize. But as David mentioned, these drones are killing children and
women all the time over there.

And --

ROBINSON: You know, Lawrence --

BURLEIGH: And we don`t --

ROBINSON: You know --

BURLEIGH: We don`t hear about it.

O`DONNELL: Gene, go ahead.

ROBINSON: Yes, now the issue is that we can do things now that we could
not do before. We can send flying robots up to track, identify and kill
specific individuals.

It`s kind of war by assassination, essentially. And, you know, there`s a
powerful incentive for this president, who has vastly expanded the drone
war from where George Bush left it.

And for future presidents to use this technology as opposed to sending in
commando teams and special forces teams because that would be putting
American lives in danger.

And if you have that choice to make, chances are you`re going to send in
the robots. And so, you know, there are -- there are -- there are moral
and ethical questions here.

There are precedent setting questions here, drone technology is not that
complicated, and certainly within, you know, there are dozens and dozens of
nations now that fly drones.

They have not all militarize their drones, but they have the capability of
doing so. And we all need to talk -- to think about this and we all need
to talk about this because you can imagine a rather dystopian future.

CORN: Well --

ROBINSON: You don`t have to go all the way to terminator to imagine --

CORN: We`ll be targeted by drones as well. I mean that`s -- that`s how --
you saw the gyrocopter that made it to the capital.

ROBINSON: Exactly --

CORN: It doesn`t take a stretch of imagination for a drone built at home
with some military component to do a lot of damage. And I don`t know how
our policy in Afghanistan is going to affect what happens here.

But, you know, the future of warfare is rather frightening. And it`s very
tempting to use to get out of some of the more complicated decisions, you
know --

O`DONNELL: You know, I -- before we go on this, I just want to offer that
I don`t think we should think that there`s an alternative to this that
eliminates collateral damage.

I mean the John Kerry notion of years ago, we were talking about tonight of
the kind of very heavily armed policing response that is very targeted.

I mean, look, we are seeing unintended consequences by American police
officers everyday and far less pressurized circumstances than trying to go
into a spot in Pakistan and find the right four people to kill instead of
six people.

The idea that we could ever come up with a method in which there wouldn`t
be people who will be killed in these processes who shouldn`t be, I think
is a pipe dream.

But we`re going to have to break it here, we`ll come back to that subject
I`m sure many times in the future. History maker Barack Obama made more
history today with history maker Loretta Lynch.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC ANCHOR: Starting next week, the United States of
America will have its first African-American woman attorney general after
the Senate confirmed Loretta Lynch today, 56-43 with 10 Republicans voting
in favor. Cheering is not allowed in the Senate chamber. But President
Obama got a cheer for it today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am very pleased that
Loretta Lynch has now been confirmed --

(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Coming up, more protesters took to the streets in Baltimore
today and some officers there are now talking to investigators about what
happened the day Freddie Gray was taken into custody and then died.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: No justice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: No peace.

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: No justice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: No peace.

UNIDENTIFIED PROTESTER: No justice.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: No peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Yesterday, the head of the Baltimore police union released a
statement about the people protesting the death of Freddie Gray in police
custody saying, "The images seen on television look and sound much like a
lynch mob in that they are calling for the immediate imprisonment of these
officers without them ever receiving the due process that is the
constitutional right of every citizen, including law enforcement officers."

Later that day, he held a press conference and said this --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GENE RYAN, PRESIDENT, BALTIMORE FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: Maybe I should
reword that. I don`t want it turn into a lynch mob because when you`re
trying to put somebody in jail before all the facts are in, the
investigation hasn`t been completed, I mean, that`s wrong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Today, Baltimore City Police Commissioner Anthony Batts met
with the family of Freddie Gray. And after the meeting, the Baltimore
Police Department tweeted, "Police Chief Batts met with members of the Gray
family, listening to their pain and expressing his sympathy. He updated
them on the investigation."

Joining us now is Jayne Miller, investigative reporter for NBC affiliate
WBAL in Baltimore. Jayne has been covering this investigation from the
start.

Jayne, what is the latest tonight?

JAYNE MILLER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, WBAL: Well, Lawrence, first of all,
the protests, we had more protests today. Probably not quite as many
people today as we`ve had in previous days. But they were scattered around
the city. But tonight, all is quiet. We`ve had very orderly -- you know,
a few scuffles here and there with police, but certainly mostly just very
organized, strong message from the organizers.

There`s been the demonstrators. So all is quiet tonight. The
investigation goes on and, you know, there are little bits and pieces that
are, you know, developing. But this is an ongoing criminal investigation
of what happened to Freddie Gray while he was in custody on April 12th.
He, of course, died a week later.

O`DONNELL: Eugene Robinson, the police department has promised a -- and
Jayne has been making the point about this, this is so unusual. A May 1st
deadline for them to kind of go public with a report or some presentation
of some kind about what they think happened here. So, you know, end of
next week.

EUGENE ROBINSON, THE WASHINGTON POST: Yes. One thing they may have
learned from the string of awful incidents we`ve seen over the past month
is try to get it out and try to get it out quickly rather than, you know,
just let everything fester and resentments build up and anger build up and
everything. You know, the kind of interesting thing here is, of course,
Baltimore is a city with an African-American mayor and a history of
African-Americans political leadership.

Yet the issues are not dissimilar and the real issues are not so much the
race of those doing the policing as how African-American communities are
being policed. And specifically how African-American men and boys are
treated by police.

O`DONNELL: Jayne Miller, is there a different feeling in Baltimore under
this mayoralty than under Martin O`Malley`s mayoralty?

MILLER: You know, that`s a very complex question, Lawrence, because there
are differences in the policing strategy, significant differences. In
fact, the mayor, Stephanie Rawlings-Blake and former mayor and former
governor Martin O`Malley had kind of a war of words over this within the
last 18 months.

O`Malley, when he was mayor, set forth a zero tolerance policing. He
introduced that to Baltimore in the years that he was -- in which he was
mayor. We had -- averaged 100,000 arrests per year. Now the number of
arrests is about half that. But it`s still very high. But the mayor,
Stephanie Rawlings-Blake, she was asked this very question the other day,
Lawrence, by a reporter who`s been watching the post at her weekly
briefing, does it make a difference that you are an African-American mayor?

And her answer was, I look at this situation as an African-American female
who has grown up in Baltimore. And she went on to say what we have heard
her say many times over the past two years as she has tried to introduce
reforms in the police department, and that is people hate crime, but in
many communities, they hate the police more.

So this -- what has happened with this situation with Freddie Gray is not a
new conversation. It`s not a new debate. There are many people in this
town that hope it will kind of blow open the conversation of the way that
policing is done in not just the city of Baltimore, but around the country
in urban areas.

O`DONNELL: David Corn, this raises so many questions about the broken
windows theory versus zero tolerance, which are actually two different
things. The co-author of the book "Window`s Theory" recently at a forum
here in New York said, it was never intended to be zero tolerance. And
what we`re seeing in this arrest -- the approach to Freddie Gray is
something that sounds like zero tolerance, meaning there was virtually no
reason, no probable cause to arrest him based on what the police had seen.
And this was something -- they didn`t see a broken window. And they still
went into this mode.

DAVID CORN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. Which I think it`s to the
point that even with the broken window theory, there still is, you know,
discretion on how -- and more importantly how the cops prosecute or engage
or implement those theories are as important as the theories themselves.
And you`re seeing, I think, a lot of this resentment boil over now on the
streets of Baltimore where they`re saying we don`t care about the color of
our leadership, of the police force or of -- in the mayor`s office. We
care about the interactions from the cops in our community.

So that`s the fundamental issue. And you have to wonder how four, five,
six cops end up in a situation with one fellow who might not have even
deserved to be arrested who ends up with 80 percent of his spine severed.
I mean, how does that happen? I hope they can tell us by May 1st.

O`DONNELL: Jayne, do you have any more information --

MILLER: Can I just --

O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Jayne.

MILLER: I was just going to add, ask the question, because I think I know
what you`re going to ask. But go ahead and ask the question.

O`DONNELL: What do we know -- what do we know about what happened inside
the van?

MILLER: We`ve done a lot of work on this. There is a lot of
misinformation out there and it kind of drives me crazy. But this is what
we have been reporting. And I have been doing this for a very long time.
The -- where this investigation focuses is on two things, is what happened
once he is in the police van.

That police van, it`s a Ford E-350 van. It`s been modified to be a police
wagon. It`s essentially a small metal box, it has a metal vents in it, and
it has a metal divider down the middle to divide the two sides so they can
put more prisoners in it at one time. And then there`s a metal divider
between the passenger section and of course the driver`s section.

This investigation, as we have reported it and as we have really zeroed in
on this investigation, this investigation is really not so much about what
the police did, although it does include that. It`s what they didn`t do.
This is an investigation that centers on negligence. Police are required
by policy to do three things. One, seatbelt in a prisoner. Make sure they
are secured. Two, keep them safe. And three, get medical attention if it
is necessary or observed. If they see that it is needed.

This commissioner himself on Monday admitted that there -- as he put it --
two or three times when we probably should have called for a medic. That
did not happen. This man suffered a broken neck. He was losing oxygen
because of the severity of his upper spinal injury. If he had gotten
medical attention sooner, who knows. That`s what is so critical in these
kinds of injuries.

Medical experts have told me what he suffered was his very badly broken
neck is the Christopher Reeves injury. When you get medical attention
quickly, you have a much greater chance to survive. This was not quick
medical attention and that is really where this investigation focuses.

O`DONNELL: Great reporting, Jayne. Jayne, you`ve had a long day.. Our
first chat today was on "MORNING JOE." Thank you for staying with us
tonight. Really appreciate you joining us.

MILLER: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: OK.

All right, coming up, Johnny Depp as you`ve never seen him. Playing the
notorious gangster Whitey Bulger, the Boston gangster. You`ve got to see
this. We`re going to show you every second of this amazing new trailer.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: On the lighter side of the news, Warner Brothers broke the
Internet today or at least broke the Boston Internet, my Internet, when
they dropped the first trailer for Johnny Depp`s version of Boston gangster
Whitey Bulger on YouTube. Here is every glorious frame of that trailer.

You`re welcome, Warner Brothers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHNNY DEPP, ACTOR, "WHITEY BULGER": What did you marinate the steak in?
Because it`s out of this world. You`re killing me with it.

DAVID HARBOUR, ACTOR, "JOHN MORRIS": No, no, no. It`s a family secret.

DEPP: Come on. You`ve got to tell me that. What`s the secret? Come on,
you could do it. Come on. That is one of the best (EXPLETIVE DELETED)
damn steaks I ever had in my life. Ever. So what`s the family secret
recipe?

HARBOUR: It`s ground garlic and a little bit of soy.

DEPP: That`s it?

HARBOUR: Yes, that`s it.

DEPP: I thought it was a family secret.

HARBOUR: It`s a recipe.

DEPP: No. No. You said to me this is a family secret. And you gave it
up to me, boom. Just like that. You spill the secret family recipe today.
Maybe you spill a little something about me tomorrow.

HARBOUR: I was just saying that --

DEPP: You were just saying? Just saying gets people sent away. Just
saying got me a nine-year stretch in Alcatraz. You understand? So just
saying could get you buried real quick. Look at his face.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: Oh, my god. Michael Dougherty.

MICHAEL BRENDAN DOUGHERTY, THE WEEK: Two thumbs up.

O`DONNELL: I`ve got to -- listen, is it just because I`m Irish and I`m
from Boston and I`m a Johnny Depp fan?

ROBINSON: Yes. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: Am I completely biased or is this thing the greatest two
minutes ever?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s pretty good. It`s pretty good.

DOUGHERTY: You`re biased. But this is --

ROBINSON: Wicked good. Wicked good.

DOUGHERTY: This is the greatest crime story of the last 50 years. And you
have one of the greatest actors playing a very charismatic, legendary sort
of -- almost beloved legend of crime in Boston. And it was irresistible.
Johnny Depp plays that scene just like Bulger played the FBI. Just --

O`DONNELL: Yes. Yes.

DOUGHERTY: It`s perfect.

O`DONNELL: Nina, is this a guy thing? Or is this --

NINA BURLEIGH, AUTHOR: It`s totally a guy thing.

O`DONNELL: OK. Yes.

BURLEIGH: I`m sorry, but --

(CROSSTALK)

BURLEIGH: I`m going to play devil`s advocate here.

O`DONNELL: You saw nothing there. Go ahead.

BURLEIGH: I see -- well, first of all, we see Johnny Depp acting well
after his last appearance. The last time I saw him, he was stumbling drunk
at the Golden Globes. But I`m just kind of sick of mob movies. I mean,
you know, just from this trailer here, you can see there`s probably one
female character. She`s probably the stripper with the heart of gold. She
probably gets kicked around a little bit and that`s it. And, you know, I`m
a little tired of these --

(CROSSTALK)

CORN: Well, I hope they ended up showing him with his wife in Santa Monica
when they`re -- he`s living the good life and far away from the FBI.

ROBINSON: I do not understand the phrase sick of mob movies. That doesn`t
compute to me.

O`DONNELL: Went over my head.

(CROSSTALK)

ROBINSON: Right. It is so great, though, to see Johnny Depp, who is a
great actor, actually doing that as opposed to, you know, kind of --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As opposed to being a pirate.

ROBINSON: Flailing around as Tonto in that awful Lone Ranger remake.

DOUGHERTY: That wasn`t so bad.

O`DONNELL: And he`s --

ROBINSON: It was really bad.

DOUGHERTY: That wasn`t so bad.

O`DONNELL: And if you -- and it`s true, Johnny Depp does not have blue
eyes, which we just saw in -- he`s got the blue eye lenses on for this.
And he`s actually kind of stepping in the shadow of Jack Nicholson here of
who in "The Departed" played the fictional version of Whitey Bulger with a
different name. Let`s listen to Jack`s version of it for a second.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JACK NICHOLSON, ACTOR: When I tell you to dump a body in the marsh, you
dump them in the marsh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O`DONNELL: You know, I got a lot of questions today on Twitter about is
Johnny Depp`s Boston accent good? And the answer is in those two minutes I
can`t be quite sure because I didn`t hear him say marsh. Now if he had a
marsh scene like Nicholas, then I could tell you. I need to hear a little
bit more. Everything I heard from Johnny Depp was good so far.

Eugene, back to the -- you know, can`t stand another gangster movie.

ROBINSON: Yes.

O`DONNELL: I can`t stand another cliche movie, but anything can be done
well. And when it`s done really well, even if it`s another gangster movie
or a western or some other genre that you`re tired of.

ROBINSON: Yes.

O`DONNELL: If they do it well, a great movie is a great movie.

ROBINSON: A great movie is a great movie. And, look, for some reason, mob
movies offer -- you`ve got a lot to work with there, right? Because you`ve
got violence, of course, but you`ve got betrayal and loyalty and, you know,
family ties and all these sorts of themes.

CORN: And food. Don`t forget the food.

ROBINSON: And food. They`re awesome. There`s always good food.

(CROSSTALK)

BURLEIGH: Robert de Niro in a restaurant in Tribeca.

CORN: This one you`ve got the FBI. This whole sordid story of the FBI
which, you know, they had a lot bit of in "Departed." They didn`t focus on
that as much.

ROBINSON: Yes.

CORN: I`d like to see how far they get into that with this one.

O`DONNELL: Nina, I want you to go back to your -- I want to get drown out
here on us guys loving the mob movies. But I don`t -- look, most of them I
hate because most of them were bad. But, you know, my feeling is, I don`t
care if it`s a musical, which I`m not necessarily inclined to. If it`s
great, it`s great.

BURLEIGH: Well, no, I agree that there are great stories. I mean, Eugene
is right. The mob is -- you know, it`s filled with great stories. And,
you know, tragedy and comedy and everything. But that said, I think I got
sick of it after "Sopranos."

O`DONNELL: Did you like "The Sopranos"?

BURLEIGH: Up to a point. Up to a point.

O`DONNELL: And then get sick of it or get sick of it during "The
Sopranos"?

BURLEIGH: Somewhere during "The Sopranos."

O`DONNELL: OK.

BURLEIGH: I think after --

(CROSSTALK)

DOUGHERTY: What season, Nina?

BURLEIGH: After the -- you know, after the badabing.

O`DONNELL: A little too much badabing.

BURLEIGH: Well, yes. A little bit. Yes.

O`DONNELL: Yes. I understand that. I love every frame of the "Sopranos."
But I understand that.

All right. Coming up next, I`m going to drag some predictions out of the
panel. Their LAST WORD predictions.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIGUEL ALMAGUER, NBC NEWS: In southern Chile, the Calbuco volcano is
erupting with fury. Witnesses say the twin blasts sounded like bombs. A
fiery mix of lava and lightning. Calbuco rumbling back to life after
sitting dormant 40 years.

Thousands are on the move and in a state of panic. The fallout could
contaminate water and is causing health concerns as far away as Argentina.

Miguel Almaguer, NBC News.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O`DONNELL: All right. Just a couple of minutes left for everyone`s LAST
WORD predictions.

Eugene Robinson, who`s going to be the front runner in the Republican
presidential primary field a month from now?

ROBINSON: Oh, Lawrence, honestly.

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: Come on.

ROBINSON: A month from now, I`ll say still Marco Rubio.

O`DONNELL: David Corn?

ROBINSON: Marco Rubio is still going to be -- still going to be a front
runner a month from now. Two months from now, he won`t be. But a month
from now, he will be.

O`DONNELL: David Corn, who is going to win the World Series?

CORN: Who`s going to win the World Series? I think the New York Mets.

O`DONNELL: I just thought I`d give you a tougher one.

CORN: The New York Mets. Every since I was 10 in `69, I`d say that every
single year.

O`DONNELL: Right.

ROBINSON: That is so wrong. The Nationals.

O`DONNELL: Michael Dougherty, is Johnny Depp going to win the Golden Globe
and the Oscar or just the Oscar or --

DOUGHERTY: I think both and the Tony, too.

O`DONNELL: Yes. And the Tony. Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

O`DONNELL: Based on two minutes, two minutes of the trailer. You know,
this is all you need, it`s all the information you need.

Nina, tell me anything that`s going to happen in the future anywhere at any
time, this next decade, the next decade.

BURLEIGH: Shares of Ritalin rise as the investigative journalist at the
"New York Times" starts studying the Canadian tax code.

O`DONNELL: Yes. So where does the "New York Times" and the "Washington
Post" that`s also on this Clinton money story? Where do they go from here?

BURLEIGH: We`ve been talking about this a lot. I don`t know how much time
you have, but it`s not good that these major newspapers had to farm out
their investigative work to this right wing hatchet (INAUDIBLE).

O`DONNELL: What they`re saying is this guy gave them their book ahead of
time.

BURLEIGH: Right.

DOUGHERTY: Yes.

O`DONNELL: And well, Eugene, speaking of the "Washington Post."

BURLEIGH: They could have done that on their own. I mean, that material
is already out there.

O`DONNELL: Gene, tell us how it works at "The Washington Post."

ROBINSON: How it works is if we`re going to get a book that we think
there`s something in it and we get it early, we`re going to look at it and
see if there`s anything in it. And meanwhile, we`re going to have our
reporters out there on the money trail. So stay tuned.

O`DONNELL: And the author of this Clinton cash book says he`s now working
on the same kind of report, Michael, about Jeb Bush.

DOUGHERTY: Yes. I mean, Peter Schweizer is definitely conservative, but
he`s done books before like "Throw the Bums Out" that went after John
Boehner and other Republican figures. He has his bias, but he`s not afraid
of taking shots at Republicans for the same --

CORN: Well, there`s a lot to get into with Jeb Bush. A month ago at
"Mother Jones", we came up with a list of just 23 scandals and
controversies he had before, after and during his days as governor.
They`re all right for further exploration.

O`DONNELL: All right. I have a prediction. We`re eventually going to be
talking about 23 scandals and controversies of Jeb Bush here on THE LAST
WORD.

Eugene Robinson --

CORN: I hope so.

O`DONNELL: -- David Corn, Nina Burleigh, Michael Brendan Dougherty, thank
you all for joining us throughout the show tonight. Really appreciate it.

CORN: Sure thing.

ROBINSON: Good night. Good night.

O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.

END

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