The Ed Show for Monday, April 27th, 2015
Read the transcript to the Monday show
Show: THE ED SHOW
Date: April 27, 2015
Guest: Mick Mosby, Tessa Aston-Hill, C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger, J.C Watts,
Paul Henderson, Michael McBride
RICHARD LUI, MSNBC ANCHOR: I`m Richard Lui sit in for Ed right now.
We start with breaking news as you`ve been watching right here on MSNBC out
of Baltimore, Maryland, looking at live pictures right now, in Baltimore,
where young demonstrators are clashing with police.
Earlier, demonstrators were throwing rocks and other objects in officers.
These live pictures that you see at the moment, fire trucks arriving at
this burning vehicle, we`ve been watching it over the last hour here from
this helicam, coming from this helicopter that has been over this area
which we believe to be around the Mondawmin Mall, not too far away from
where the funeral was held earlier today for Freddie Gray, the 25-year-old
who died after being taken into custody by Baltimore police. That happen
just not too many hours ago and then right after that, about 3:00 today, we
did get a tweet from the Baltimore police saying they were concern about
threats against the police department and against officers.
Two hours later, we see exactly at this moment 5:01 P.M. Eastern Time,
violence has erupted to some degree. There, in this area, we have seen
some looting live pictures again coming out of the downtown area, again, we
believe to be near Mondawmin Mall, in west north if you`re familiar with
Joining us now is NBC`s Brian Moore who is with us at the moment. Brian,
can you hear me?
BRIAN MOORE, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Richard. You know, we just finished
speaking with Billy Murphy, the attorney for the family and he says that
this is the Gray family`s nightmare scenario. This is exactly what they
don`t want to happen.
They made an appeal to the people who out there who obviously cannot hear
this broadcast, to stop what they`re doing. He says it is counter
productive, is not helping anyone and in fact he says it is traumatizing
MOORE: ... trying to deal with a men`s lost and trying to lay Freddie Gray
to rest to that.
LUI: And the family and the Mayor have been so consistent, Brian, as
you`ve been reporting over the past few days, do not do this. They did not
want this to happen as you were just saying, yet, as we watch the live
pictures coming from the CVS pharmacy and we`ve seen waves. Its gone
quiet, we only see perhaps five or six individuals running in and out of
the CVS pharmacy with items in hand. And then after a period of time, it
will increase to what you see now, in these live pictures coming from this
chopper cam where there could be a couple of dozen not three dozen. Where
you at and what are you seeing?
MOORE: I`m still at the church where the funeral service is took place
today, where there so many calls for peace and constructive change, and
probably about five blocks away from here is the nexus of this violence.
So we`ve seen police officers, many dozens of them in sort of a defensive
posture trying to pushback crowds. We`re told, Richard, that it started
with just a couple of kids, juveniles probably just having gotten out of
MOORE: .. up to some mishap (ph) near the mall...
MOORE: ... and it very quickly escalated.
LUI: Tell me this, so you`re about five blocks away and it`s about two
hours or more or less, what have you been able to hear and see from where
you were at?
MOORE: Well, indulge me for a second. This is one thing we are able to
see which was a rock that was thrown at us and this is something they can
obviously do some real damage.
MOORE: We`ve seen people driving through the area, one person yield "Black
Lives Matter", a couple of other people were asking what`s going on why
there such a huge police presence. They literally rain into a blue wall of
officers and riot gear not sure at all why these streets were closed, but
At this point this area here this church has been an oasis of calm all day
MOORE: . but it is the city (ph) that is very tense right now.
MOORE: And, you know, this is the spark in the tinder box.
LUI: So you -- it`s fairly if we can say this, isolated in an area at
least based on your distance of about five blocks to the Mondawmin Mall
section and, again, to give you a quick summary of what we understand.
Baltimore police saying at least 7 officers have been injured in what
they`re describing as an ongoing vine of (ph) clash there in the Baltimore
area. And they have been very clear in providing the information to us via
Twitter in terms of what has been happening, do you have any information on
the injuries? We just had a press conference about 35 minutes ago, it was
short there from the captain, from Baltimore police as you expressing to us
a fairly graphically in term of what had happen yet he didn`t seemed to
make any clear ties related to what we were saying at the funeral, and what
was happening around that.
MOORE: Well, I think that`s because the two are really not related or --
I`ll walk you through that that in a second. It was Captain Eric Kowalczyk
who is the public information officer for the Baltimore Police Department.
Ge told us about the seven officers seriously injured, one of them
apparently more seriously than the rest. And we saw here on MSNBC live at
least what we believe to be one of those officers being carried out in
dramatic fashion, (inaudible)of officers in a protective posture around
this person carrying them to an armored personnel carrier where they were
loaded in and then driven off.
That`s what we saw live on T.V. We also saw what appeared to be juveniles
young men, mostly, throwing what look like it could be rocks or bottles
that`s what the reports are from the ground level there. We saw that very
clearly, there is a clash. But here`s what they disconnect is.
This service today, this church service was about Freddie Gray...
MOORE: . was about finding justice, was about changing the Baltimore
Police Department and Billy Murphy, the family attorney, said that we as a
community need tear down that blue wall of justice, that blue wall of
silence. But he said, it needs to be done through the system, it needs to
be done peacefully and the family is giving the City Police Department and
the city time to work through this investigation. And that`s something
that the people out on the street are not responding to.
Calling them protesters, calling them demonstrators would probably be
verily generous up to this point. These are young people who are joining
in a show demonstration against police and the police are, at this point,
indulging some of them but locking a few of them up. But at this point, if
the police push too hard, things can really get out of control so it`s a
very tight line that...
MOORE: ... we`re walking here. These police officers are trying to
maintain order but at the same time lot of things is out of control. Good
luck on balancing that.
LUI: Yeah. That balance that you are focusing on so well said because as
we have known from recent headlines in the last year or so, this is
difficult on both sides, no doubt as I look at what the best next steps
might be. Do we know what the next steps might be? Have we heard from
police any indication from those that you`ve spoken with in the area?
MOORE: Yeah. Well, look, this is a situation that has a lot of history
behind it. This is not just an isolated incident here. This is a
community that doesn`t trust the police, doesn`t...
MOORE: ... trust the system to bring them justice and at the same time,
it`s the police department that says everything is fine, that there`s no
problem, that we would trust.
Let me have in our photographer swing the camera around here and, you know,
here are couple of the young people from the neighborhood...
LUI: Shall we go to that camera, is that possible?
MOORE: . no justice no peace the young.
LUI: Let`s go to Brian`s camera if we can.
LUI: OK. We cannot.
MOORE: Where are you guys going?
MOORE: OK. It`s a group of about them maybe 15 young kids, I guess,
between the ages of about 15 and 20, walking around, some of them on their
cellphones. "No justice, no peace", it`s the chant that we`ve heard
They want justice, they say they want peace. And right now, they`re
walking toward a situation that is on the verge of getting out of control.
LUI: Brian, is that the age group that you have heard reports about, that
you have seen throughout the day, at least the last couple of hours?
MOORE: Yes. It is precisely the sweet spot of young people that were
involved in this from the very moment it began according to WBAL, the local
MOORE: But what we`ve just saw was a small group of young men who are
walking toward this. You know, they know what`s happening. They want to
go see what`s going on. I`m not saying they want to get involve in it.
But it`s for a young kid, I want to see what`s happening .
MOORE: If I was that age, I would want to be checking it out myself.
LUI: But, Brian, what would...
MOORE: And the police can`t tell whose good and whose bad, whose
demonstrator and whose agitator.
LUI: Unless you`re walking in and out of the CVS without paying for items.
And let me ask you this...
MOORE: Yeah, exactly.
LUI: ... what were they saying, again, can you repeat that to me? That
you can remember, that last group.
MOORE: No justice, no peace. Before they saw us, they were chanting it.
Before they saw the cameras, so it wasn`t like they were just doing it for
MOORE: They were saying, "No justice no peace." They were smiling, having
a good time, the kind of kids you`d see walking into the baseball stadium.
You know, that sort of atmosphere, a sort of sporting, "Hey, let`s go have
some fun" kind of thing, not realizing that this could turn ugly very
If either side or the other decides to push it a little too far and young
kids like that could get caught in the middle of it. It`s a dangerous
Billy Murphy, the family attorney who was begging people, the Mayor
Stephanie Rawlings-Blake was begging people. The twin sister of Freddie
Gray is begging people...
MOORE: ... not to riot in this kind of way. I should say not to protest
in a violent way that it doesn`t do any good. But some of these people,
don`t really care about that message.
LUI: And, Brian, that`s -- the economy hasn`t -- you have -- as you are
saying, as you started the report, you`re standing there at the location of
the service and they are absolutely against what is happening, only five
blocks away from them. And the family members and the Mayor, they`ve been
very consistent in hoping this would not happen. But here, we see what is
happening within the last two hours, not the wishes of Freddie Gray`s
family as well as the elected officials.
Brian, standby for a second though because I do want to get to an
individual who was a part of the government there and that is Nick Mosby,
Baltimore City Councilman. Thank you for being with me, Councilman.
From what you have heard from the officials in the city, what do you know
that we may not have been able to have information on yet?
NICK MOSBY, BALTIMORE CITY COUNCILMAN: Well, I mean, the one thing is we
talked about what`s going on now. I attended the funeral early today to
part in. We are not there on the street the past week.
Many of the results, I would not -- I wouldn`t say all but most of the
folks, these are young folks either Baltimore City public school and high`s
school children, and what they`ve been doing all day is going to social
media and leveraging social media to do what they call encouraging and they
planning on meeting at Mondawmin, the police met them there...
MOSBY: ... knowing that they had this intel. Police met them there and,
you know, with tankers and riot gear on. And at first, it was seem to be a
little peaceful scene that would be broken up but then you know, as time
went on, over and over again, you know, it turned into a lot of violence.
I just came from North Avenue, I was driving from the church to city hall.
You know, basically saw a car, police target, you know, just (throwing)
with rocks, and debris, and broken up (inaudible) and its type of children
everywhere but either children.
And, you know what I think? What we`re seeing is just a frustration, the
anger. This is a completely different than what the family says,
expressed, and asked, and beg the city to respond as relates to fighting
for justice and it`s, you know, this is really (inaudible) time in the City
of Baltimore, specifically West Baltimore. I represent this area. I
represent this district.
LUI: You represent this area and this district, and we`re watching these
pictures coming from the CVS. Is this -- does this location, does this
corner, does this mall, hold any sort of significance to the neighborhood,
to the area and the development of Freddie Gray?
MOSBY: Well, yes. So Freddie Gray was from Sandtown in Gimor Homes which
is, you know, three- to four-minute walk away from the CVS.
The CVS is pretty close to the church, its all in the same general area of
the greater Mondawmin/Sandtown communities. You know, these areas are very
historic. I mean, you know, the birthplace of Thurgood Marshall is nearly
a couple of blocks away on Division Street.
You know, in West Baltimore has tons and tons of African-American history
and, you know, this places are very important to the community.
LUI: Now, Brain Moore, NBC`s correspondent which is telling us, as he saw
a group approaching him and he seemed to be concurring with his reporting
here and that is, we`re looking at not adults, 15 and up to 18 so just
turning into adulthood here.
MOSBY: Yes. These are children. And again, they are, you know, these
children are growing up some in adjunct poverty. This is a war. This is
an issue that not specifically type of Freddie Gray. Freddie Gray was the
culmination to kind of spark to all of these.
But these are children that are really acting up the frustration of social
economic standards that they`ve lived in, that they`ve been in part of, you
know, from police brutality, to (opposing the pipeline, to un or under
educated folks. I mean, this is a culmination of so many variables that
play in the communities in which these children come from.
You know, and again, the city officials, the legal...
MOSBY: ... representative, the family has stressed over and over again,
you know, this is not the way to see justice. You know, I think today
after amazing service, a going home service for...
MOSBY: ... Freddie Gray is truly a bad ending.
LUI: Councilman, as we look at what`s happening here from this chopper
cam, these live pictures and there are some adults clearly that are part of
this removing items from -- it appears the CVS there without payment. What
is the conversation that`s happening between you and the other council
members? Have spoken with the Mayor? Have you spoken with the police
department? What do you know?
MOSBY: I have not spoken with the Mayor although police chief, I mean,
between council members. You know, it`s just come from a leadership to
kind of really go in and you`ll saw this, you know, decades of the systemic
issues in our communities. And like I said, these children are nothing
more than byproducts of those that have come up before and the policy that
has tailed in before.
And, you know, we can focus on Freddie Gray and that`s what we`re going to
continue to talk about. But this is really a culmination of so many
different variables and, you know, we just have to really find (ph), you
know, strong leadership to really go in to talk to these children, to
settle them down and, you know. Unfortunately, healing (ph) won`t come
until they see or they understand now that folks here and folks are
listening and I think that, you know, them acting up and this violent way,
this inappropriate way as a result to all of that.
LUI: Councilman, are you able to watch the television now. Can you see
the pictures that we are showing our viewers at the moment?
MOSBY: Yeah. I`ll tell you literally, I just left North Avenue about 10
or 15 minutes ago, I jolt (ph) pass the CVS, I jolt (ph) pass the car that
was parading, I jolt (ph) pass the other...
LUI: And there`s tow -- it appears at the live pictures are showing us at
least one or two cars still burning. Tell me what you see right now on the
MOSBY: Just, you know, mobs of children misdirected, you know, acting out
very violently. And again, it`s nothing that anybody wanted to see, we had
some amazing rallies throughout the week at the Western District Police
MOSBY: ... at city hall, all throughout the streets of Baltimore and even
on Saturday where there was small amount that turned violent but, you know,
MOSBY: ... completely a different direction of...
LUI: What would this corner look like? What would this intersection look
like normally at 5:17 Eastern Time?
MOSBY: At this time, you see in this section would be crowded and very
bust. And there would be tons and tons of cars coming up, down
Pennsylvania Avenue and North Avenue.
The subway station would be completely packed. I mean, this is a huge
(inaudible) in the center of West Baltimore to help folks, you know,
transport back and forth.
I mean just an answer alone back to one of your questions. I mean,
Pennsylvania Avenue just has so much history and culture as it relates to
the past. I mean -- and, you know, unfortunately, you know, this is not
the type of a history that we want to continue and make (inaudible) like
LUI: How far is the closest police department station?
MOSBY: The closest police department to this point, it would be the police
department that they ultimately took Freddie Gray too which is the Western
District on Mount Street.
So Mount Street is probably about five to six blocks west and the actual
station is probably about 10 blocks in the south so...
LUI: It`s about 15?
MOSBY: ... blocks south.
LUI: About 15 blocks away there. Where is the closest school to this
intersection, the high school or middle school?
MOSBY: There`s tons of school, I mean, West Baltimore is highly, densely
populated area, there`s tons of school`s around here, specifically high
LUI: So very close to this corner that we`re looking at these live
MOSBY: Yes. Yes, very close. You have, you know, two high schools just
in really -- two large schools, Carver Vocational as well as Frederick
Douglas High School.
LUI: Are you worried when sunsets in about three hours?
MOSBY: Oh, I`m concerned. I`m concerned. I mean the city is very tense.
These young folks are very angry and I`m concerned how we can, you know,
calm that down. I am really concerned
I think that clearly the police in there, their approach. It should not
going to naturally calm them down. So what I`m concerned is that the
children being hurt and, you know, I know that there been reports of police
officers have already been hurt.
MOSBY: Yeah. I am extremely...
LUI: Seven are injured. Yeah.
MOSBY: I think one is really injured. They`ve said that the person was
unconscious for some time.
LUI: That`s correct. If you were down on that intersection, what would
you say to these kids?
MOSBY: It`s nothing about to say but stop. You know, Freddie Gray and
what folks are trying to do in his memory, would not want this. You can
allow him to die. And violence does not -- forget violence (ph). Violence
just brings more violence. It does not bring justice. And, you know, just
I mean, you know, it`s -- this is really sad, really extremely disappointed
especially since I`ve been on the ground, I`ve seen all the positive work
and all of this come -- I mean, it`s amazing to see so many children who
felt so voiceless and so disenfranchised from the process, you know, all
week, you know, push, and push, and push...
MOSBY: ... and act in a very peaceful way of protesting. You know, what
they know the wrongs have been for decades. And you know, to bring it to
this, you know, just completely racist. Unfortunately, that`s from the
MOSBY: ... and this is all we`re going to see over the next couple of
LUI: And, Councilman, look, I do understand when you see this because this
is your home, this is your neighborhood, this is...
MOSBY: This is my community...
LUI: That`s your community.
MOSBY: ... I live five minutes away from here. Yeah.
LUI: And when you see this as surreal that isn`t as much as the sadness
that you`ve expressed to us that you are feeling as you looked at these
pictures. And if you were down on that corner, you understand there`s the
issue of trust because you brought it up. And it`s trust of the police
department, its trust of the elected government. And therefore, it is
trust perhaps of you, who did I trust, do you believe at this moment?
MOSBY: I don`t think they know who they trust. I think that they feel
variegated then they feel very disconnected, they feel a lot of distrust,
and I think that that`s going to be the complex of a problem that needs to
How can you approach and talk to these young folks to let them truly know
that, well, we care about them and we are willing to provide them with real
opportunities to be productive citizens.
I mean at the end of the day, everybody is born in this world with the
ability of becoming whatever they want to be. But, unfortunately, we had
parted the population who failed systemic policies that has caused this
whole disenfranchised. I mean, this whole ideology that I don`t have a
voice. And unfortunately, this violence that we are seeing today, are our
children speaking to us.
LUI: Councilman Mosby...
MOSBY: I think the (inaudible) we need to wake up.
LUI: And we got to go here but I thank you for stopping by. Because I
know, you probably have a very busy evening. What are your plans for the
rest of the evening here as we see this car in the left hand side of our
screen ignited appears and perhaps, there is some gasoline in one of the
sub tanks that exploded, what is your plan in the next three or four hours?
MOSBY: Well, I am scheduled to go to the council meeting. We have plan on
calling all my colleagues...
LUI: What is that?
MOSBY: I`m actually 22 minutes late, going in now.
LUI: Is that a...
MOSBY: ... just talking to colleagues.
LUI: Is that 6:00 P.M. you`re saying?
MOSBY: In the studio. No. It`s a 5:00. I`m late. I`m 22 minutes late.
LUI: OK. Well...
MOSBY: ... at city hall.
LUI: And then, from that, you -- a plan, we put together to handle what
we`re saying on the streets right now.
MOSBY: Yeah. I mean, and look forward to talking to the Mayor. I look
forward to talking police commissioner gaining further intelligence. But I
know that some men from the community has deployed to the area...
MOSBY: ... to talk to the children, to try to pull the children back. And
again, we just don`t want see any additional folks hurt and we do not want
to see this violence.
LUI: There are many people who agree with that statement at this hour
today, Councilman Nick Mosby. After the meeting, if you don`t mind, give
us a howler (ph) and we want to hear from you in terms of what are the next
steps if you don`t mind.
LUI: Great. Councilman Nick Mosby, there from Baltimore City. I
appreciate your time.
MOSBY: Thank you.
LUI: Well, let`s go to Tessa Aston-Hill, President of the Baltimore
Branch, NAACP. Tessa, your reaction to what you see right now, if you are
watching, what is -- on our live pictures here coming out.
We have a police vehicle here, all four doors open, clearly one of the
early vehicles that was vandalize and then, the pictures of individuals
taking items out of the CVS. And you heard what, partially, what
Councilman Nick Mosby was saying and just the hope that they can now go to
that corner and reach the youth that are there and give them a message to
say, "Stop doing this".
TESSA ASTON-HILL, PRESIDENT OF THE BALTIMORE CITY BRANCH, NATIONAL
ASSOCIATION OF THE ADVANCEMENT OF COLORED PEOPLE: Yes. I agree with
Councilman Nick Mosby. I just left -- I`ve been in that area, I did talk
to some people on the corner of Gwynns Falls and Reisterstown Road.
I, too, lived up in that district. I lived after that corner right there
where this is happening. I`ve had several people, men, called me that live
in the Sandtown/Gilmor area that where Freddie Gray was apprehended by the
police and stopped. And they called me and asked me, what that I want them
They wanted to come with me, and go 20 to 30 of them, wanted me to allow
them to go with me and go up to Mondawmin and see what they could do to
I told them no, just stand down. Because in cases like this, like I just
heard on the news, four people got locked up. And someone was saying they
weren`t doing anything.
So what`s going to happen tonight is that, there`s going to be several
young people and some adult probably, get locked up. And there going to be
people who were in the crowd, around the crowd, but when the police do
their work, and stop pulling people in, and locking them up. There`s going
to be some people who probably didn`t do anything but they are there, and
they are in the mix. And that`s going to be bad.
I am really shocked that people are doing this because as we say all the
time, and if these people look at the news, burning cars, attacking stores,
and innocent people, those store owners and people in Mondawmin, in that
area had nothing to do with Freddie Gray`s death.
We want the police indicted. We want justice but bothering other people`s
property is not going to solve the problem. I used to be a teenager. I
know what can happen. I was there in the `60s. We don`t need to devastate
our neighborhood. Sometimes when things like this happen, we have no
recovery. People don`t want to have a store there. If it`s a small mom
and pop store, it may not -- can recover.
So we`re doing damage to the community that we have to live in. Our
teenagers and people worked on some of these stores. So now, those stores
are going to be close, somebody won`t make employment tomorrow.
ASTON-HILL: So they`re going to be short on their rent. It`s a rippling
effect of all these things.
ASTON-HILL: So I wish they would understand, it`s not going to help.
LUI: And, Tessa, I know what you do not want to have to say is what you
just did because we`ve heard the story, haven`t we, so many times within
the last year, so -- and because it is their own community. When you were
there, what did you hear?
ASTON-HILL: People just running around saying, "Let`s do something". They
just being active and they think they are acting out on the behalf of
Freddie Gray. But I was at Freddie Gray`s funeral today, and it was a
beautiful service, with ministers and the family, and people talking about
love and respect. And the family was asking not for -- nothing to happen
on the day of his funeral. And hoping that maybe that would be a rippling
effect and people would be calm.
That day was the day for the family to celebrate his life, and to bury him,
and they didn`t want violence. They don`t want violence at all but they
sure they didn`t want any calm rally today because it was a day for the
family to do what they have to do, and not have to be involved in all this
LUI: Tessa, how close were you to this area, this corner close to
Mondawmin Mall? They`re close to the CVS that we`ve been watching all
these pictures. How close were you to that corner?
ASTON-HILL: Well, I wasn`t that far away. I was more on the side where
the subway stops are, where the subway, where the MTA stop (inaudible)...
LUI: Right. Right.
ASTON-HILL: ... and the patrol. I was on that area, that`s as far as I
could get with my car. I dig it out, stand on the corner with three or
four people who rode with me.
ASTON-HILL: But a lot was happening, and I saw people putting on their
When I drove back downtown, all the sheriff`s department are now, have worn
all of their active gear and helmets and about 30 or 40 to 50 sheriffs were
gearing up to come uptown, and to be involved in this, to help the police
So all the security forces and police are all coming to help, and downtown
is like isolated, and everybody has vacated downtown.
LUI: We got you for another minute and half here. What was your sense of
safety? How would you describe that?
ASTON: Well, I wasn`t fearful. I`m not a fearful person. I`m in the
community all the time. I`ve done this for a longtime. So I`m not
fearful. I usually try to talk to young people and say, "Be cool, be
careful". I don`t want them to get arrested. And most of the time they
say, "Yes, ma`am".
ASTON-HILL: So when you talk to them and engage, I mean, not in a hostile
way, they could be doing something bad but I still talk to them in a way
that I`m trying to give them respect...
ASTON-HILL: ... and talked in a peaceful manner.
They have no leader. They have situations that they`re engaging themselves
with. There`s somebody who thinks they are the leaders, some little
segments of organizations...
ASTON-HILL: ... but this is all chaotic.
LUI: Tessa Aston-Hill from the Baltimore Branch of the NAACP. I`m sure
we`ll be talking to you as the hours and days come at us from here. Thank
you so much for joining us here on the Ed Show. Thank you.
ASTON-HILL: Thank you.
LUI: I`m joined out by phone by Congressman C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger...
REP. C.A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, (D) MARYLAND: Yes, Dutch Ruppersberger.
LUI: OK. Thank you for joining us, Congressman.
LUI: You`re from Maryland, and what do you know and what have you heard
about what`s happening here?
RUPPERSBERGER: Well, first thing, I`m homegrown from Baltimore. I
represent the Baltimore region, small part of Baltimore but very upset.
When you grew up in a town, when you`re proud of your town or from
Baltimore that we just celebrated the War of 1812, the Francis Scott Key --
Baltimore is a great place to be and to raise a family. And this is very
disappointing what is occurred.
And you have to understand that there are many people extremely upset
because they feel that there has not been justice as far as Freddie Gray.
But, you know, when you have a small group who are setting places on fire,
you know, that are looting, that are bringing innocent people and
attempting to attack them or harass them, that`s not what we want people to
know what Baltimore is about.
So now, what we have to do is come together. We`ve got to call out to
citizens in Baltimore area especially in the neighborhoods to please stand
up and try to let, at this point, the juveniles or anyone...
RUPPERSBERGER: ... that wants to be involve in violence to stop it.
You`re hurting yourself.
And, you know, another issue too is that there was a funeral today, Freddie
Gray`s family from day one including his twin sister said, "Let`s not take
the violence route. That does nothing". And to really -- to have this
violence, the day he was buried, is not great for the family, is not great
for Baltimore and, you know, it`s got to stop because you have to have law
and order. Otherwise, innocent people will suffer and that`s not who we
are in Baltimore.
LUI: And the parallel might be, if we may for a second or an allusion
would be, of course, Ferguson as we look at Michael Brown and where he
lived. There were two or three shrines where he -- where his apartment was
at and just blocks away at Sam`s Deli, similar to what we`re seeing here at
CVS. To some degree, we`re not seeing of course fire at the CVS, what we
are seeing it appears to be looting of that location...
RUPPERSBERGER: I think one or two cars have been set on fire.
LUI: Right. There, in fact, we have pictures right now of one that is on
fire. We did see two at one point. We have the police vehicle that was
also damage and here is that picture again of this police vehicle on fire
with the van right behind it.
We have seven officers that have been injure. We believe one seriously
here in what has happen now, what we believe about two and a half hours
Congressman, have you spoken with any of the officials there in Baltimore,
the Baltimore Police Department, the Mayor, any of the council members have
got the information.
RUPPERSBERGER: In times like this, with the Mayor is extremely busy and is
she had a lot on her plate as long as the commissioner. And, you know, the
issue I think from the Mayor`s point of view is to make sure that she
communicate, you know, as much as she can or the commissioner. You know,
what we need to do, we have to, you know, we cannot tolerate violence.
I think if you look at what happen on Saturday night, we had also -- we`re
at baseball game right around the corner before these things occurred...
LUI: That`s correct.
RUPPERSBERGER: ... as if we showed a lot of restrain too, but in the end
when the people who are acting out and they`re breaking the law, that their
attacking innocent people when they`re looting stores, you know. Then, we
have to standup, that`s who we are to country, you know, and we need --
But in the other hand, solve this problem long-term. We have to understand
why there`s frustration out there in this neighborhood especially with
juveniles who live in areas that, where there`s a lot of poverty, who might
not give a future.
And then they feel that there has not been justice. You can see what the
problem is. Again, yet, you have (inaudible), you heard members of the
city council, you heard our Mayor, you heard other people talk about
(inaudible) where we have to change things, we`re going to investigate. We
have the federal government involved.
You know, we cannot continue to have this relationship between police, and
a lot of good policemen out there, put their lives in line everyday. And
that`s important to know too. And the actual, a few have cause a serious
problem and there`s a lack of distracts now and that`s what has to work
LUI: And you are alluding to Saturday, April 25th, 35 people arrested, 6
officers were hurt on that Saturday and now, we are here on the Monday ,
the 27th, two days later seven officers injured. And we were listening to
the captain earlier and he was describing to us how the injuries progress
throughout the hours.
But there was the threat, the credible threat that the -- Baltimore police
did tweet out about six hours ago. And then, there were the preparations
no doubt after they believe they have found a credible threat to law
enforcement and then began to work with local and state law enforcement
partners, they were saying, after that particular threat.
What do you know of the threat? Were you also made aware of it and did you
have to offer a guidance on that?
RUPPERSBERGER: Well, first thing, I was a former prosecutor years ago, and
I`ve been in a lot of criminal work. I`m also -- I was the front man of
past ranking member of the intelligence committee, I do a lot (inaudible)
terrorism and national security. So intelligence is extremely important to
One of my biggest fears on what`s happening now, there will be gangs coming
together and attending to -- in site and attending to attack police
officers. When you attack your police in that chaos, no one is safe.
So we have to standup and make sure that we do things the right away, that
we have our communities standup, and I think a lot are comings have said,
that it`s represents the area where is this occurring the congress
(inaudible) comings, that it`s just -- it`s about -- there`s a lot of
injustice that we`re going to deal with that. We`re going to get the facts
and there`s going to be a consequence, there`s going to be a system that`s
follow. But that`s -- that we are -- But we also have to change things
because we cannot continue to go on the way things are now because there
will continue to be a lack of trust and we will have the situations over
and over again.
But when you threaten your police officers, when you threaten your
military, you know, and what I mean by that on international basis, what
al-Qaeda is doing and that type of thing.
I mean you have to standup because you have to have justice. Otherwise, if
you allow this bad people to just went in site and will take juveniles and
try to -- have them in site, then no one is safe especially innocent people
who live in this neighborhoods who love Baltimore and they would be able to
walk, walk down the street.
A business center doesn`t want to worry about his store being looted, and
everything that he is lived for and (inaudible) for is gone. And that`s
why you have to expect that you have to get a community group and I think
the mayor is done a good job in getting together ministers who have a lot
of -- listeners who listen to them and the community leaders, you heard in
I think the mayor has reach out to this people and saying, "You got to help
us, we have to standup, and we have to stop it".
LUI: Yes. What...
RUPPERSBERGER: ... because tolerate injustice and...
LUI: Congressman, we are watching clearly a limited group of dozens that
have decided to hit the streets and go to the CVS and also attack vehicles,
police vehicles, in the area and we will see what happens in the coming
Maryland Congressmen Ruppersberger, thank you so much for...
RUPPERSBERGER: OK. Take care.
LUI: . for spending some time with us. And again, what is happening right
now at 5:37 P.M. Eastern Time, there was a council meeting happening at
this moment where they, as we`ve been told by one of the council members,
they are determining what the next steps are as we watch some pictures of
what appears to be looting at this CVS pharmacy which is in a center part
there, West Baltimore.
Also what we understand according to an official, the White House is
monitoring this situation in Baltimore. We are also hearing that the
Baltimore Police Department is asking parents to take their children home
or get their children home. That is what we know at the moment.
Seven officers have been injured according to the Baltimore Police
Department. That`s what we know at this time at 5:37 P.M. This incident
what is now two to three hours old.
I want to get now to former Congressman J.C Watts of Oklahoma. I want to
thank you for being with us, Congressman. You represent Senator Rand Paul
who went to the Ferguson area before, do you expect him to come to
FMR. REP. J.C WATTS, OKLAHOMA: Well, Richard, I`m on outside looking in, I
just kind of stared to monitor the situation over the last hour. So when
I`ve seen what the T.V. screen had shown me, we did encourage Senator Paul
to go to Ferguson and talk to the community. And I suspect in this
situation in Baltimore. I think what Rep. Ruppersberger said that I know a
lot of you coming, I know that he will be on top of it but I pray for great
wisdom for the community leaders, the Mayor, the police department as a
navigate through a very, very sensitive situation.
LUI: Have you spoken with any of the officials in the area and the reason
why I ask if all our guest is, you know, this is a developing a breaking
story obviously and we`re trying to get the most information to do
understand what is happening here.
We heard just a moments ago, for about 15 minutes ago, that the council,
the city council was meeting starting at 5:00 P.M. and they will determine
what will be next.
We have new pictures that we`ve been looking at, mostly pictures out of the
CVS, the pharmacy. Now, it looks like we`re looking at a group more than -
- a larger group here, if you can see this, Congressman, on the screen that
is in front of looks to be a check cashing...
LUI: ... location.
As you look at this pictures, what is the reaction that you have heard from
those that you speak with?
WATTS: Well again, Richard, I want to be responsible and I`m not spoken to
anyone at this point. I heard what the representative said prior to me
coming on. I was actually supposed to be on the show tonight and talk
about presidential politics, but this is obviously unfolded and we`re focus
But I would say, what`s going on to CVS and the, you know, the check
cashing place there, you know, that`s never good.
And if there has been an injustice, if there has been a wrong, you know,
that kind of takes away from what the injustice allegedly was or what the
wrong was because people tend to focus on, you know, the CVS.
So I hate that to happen that that`s unfortunate but nevertheless, the
community and leadership, the community itself, you know ministers, city
council, the Mayor, I know she`s got her hands full and she`s got more than
she can say grace over on her plate right now minus this but this has
Again, I just pray for great wisdom for all of the community as they
navigate through a very sensitive situation.
LUI: Did you expect this to reach this level? Did you expect to see,
well, when you are looking at Baltimore, Maryland. But did you expect to
see another Ferguson and as we see this sort of drumbeats happen, you know,
is we just had at least that the NBCUniversal state of race conversation
last week in Washington D.C.
And the big question was, you know, what is that relationship between
police and community, government and community and community leaders and
community, and the expectation was that there were some solution here so
that we would have to see these live pictures coming out of Baltimore,
Maryland at this check cashing location, and of that CVS. But maybe, the
answer cannot be had, what`s your thought about the answer to this?
WATTS: Well, Richard, what we saw in Ferguson with the Justice
Department`s report that came out and even what we see here tonight for
whatever reason. It`s never a good situation when it becomes an "us versus
them", that just leads to more chaos and, again, great wisdom is required.
Again, how we`re make the assessment here as I have traveled around the
country this year, as I often do. I have the chance to go in and out of
I was in South Carolina about three weeks ago or three to four weeks ago
when the situation happened with the police officer and Mr. Scott. So have
traveled around the country, talk to a lot of people and I made the
statement here about two months ago to some friends of mine, I said, "We
could be looking at a long hot summer and more ways than one".
And so as we have this discussion I think, Richard, one of the problems
with it is we saw -- we get so embedded in talking points and we get so
embedded on a 30,000-foot level that we never peel the onion really. They
get down to a 300-foot level and say, "Hey, how do we resolve this?"
It`s not the police officers. It`s not the community. It`s not Black.
It`s not White. It`s all of us. We all have a role to play in this and
trying to bring some civility to what I believe is, in my personal opinion
in traveling around the country, somewhat sensitive situation and that`s
the very reason that we encourage Senator Paul to go to Ferguson. And
don`t go there thinking that you have all the answers.
Go there with more ears than mouth, and listen, and hear the hearts on what
people are saying. Good, better and different right or wrong, people need
to be heard in times like this on both sides. Police, community, et
cetera, et cetera.
So I hope that, again, the Mayor and her team and the city officials are
largely comings, you know, the representative before me that, again, the
third time, I say, I hope they will use great wisdom or God would give them
great wisdom in this difficult time.
LUI: Congressman, we`ve got to go but I want to ask you this because you
were to be on the Ed Show tonight, to talk about Presidential politics,
you`re just talking about how you`re proud of the country discussing issues
very much related to this. What do you want and how do you see it as part
of the platforms for the presidential nominees as we get closer to 2016?
And how high on that list do you want to see these sorts of issues on their
WATTS: Very high. And that`s the reason that I am supporting Rand Paul
because as I have had his ear over the last two and half to three years,
we`ve talked to him about not just getting the economy cranked up again and
turning it all to our (ph) cylinders, but also targeting communities,
underserved communities with opportunities and growing jobs. I don`t think
we need more taxes, Richard, I think we need more tax payers.
And so, what we encourage him to do at Detroit, and Chicago, and Atlanta,
and, you know, more house college and new Howard University and, you know,
we`d like to get him down the Florida, A&M University. And so I think
there is ways that the people want to work together and want to get some
things done but as I said, that the outside we got to get beyond the
talking points and somehow another get beyond this Republic and Democrat
thing or the liberal conservative wing.
You know, we`ve got the liberal wing and the conservative wing, and the
poor bird is dying. And so somehow another we`ve got to get beyond that
and we`ve got to get out of our comfort zone and do what I`ve been
encouraged Senator Paul to do and what he has gone over the last two and
half to three years.
LUI: Thank you so much for joining us on this story today. Former
Representative J.C. Watts, thank you so much for your perspective.
WATTS: Thank you, sir.
LUI: If you`re just joining us here on MSNBC, on the Ed Show, I want to
get you up today in terms of what we know about this moment.
Live pictures coming from a chopper cam that we have, we show you in
several location`s key was the CVS pharmacy, there`s also a check cashing
location that we are watching where we`ve seen the energy ebb and flow
where there were dozens, sometimes none.
You saw at the live picture. It looked to be pretty quiet now. This is
from a little bit earlier where there were individuals flowing in and out
to or three dozens at the cash checking location that seem to have a lot of
activity at this 5:46 P.M. hour on the East Coast.
We have heard from the police department there in Baltimore. Seven
officers have been injured in violent clashes there.
We are also hearing according to the Baltimore Police Department, they
received a credible threat to law enforcement. Their intelligence unit
saying that they received credible information that members of various
gangs including the Black Guerrilla Family, Bloods and Crips have entered
into a partnership to takeout law enforcement officers that has what the
Baltimore Police Department has said.
They believe they say that is, it was a credible threat and that is a
credible threat and that the agency is there in the area. They are
suggesting that they all take appropriate precautions to make sure that
their officers are safe. And perhaps that is why we see at this moment in
at least in these pictures in they are limited certainly because we`re
looking from this chopper cams so just three locations at the moment.
They want to make sure that their officers are safe. And then, this of
course based on the number that have been reported injured seven so far
from the Baltimore Police Department.
But again, from the Baltimore Police Department saying these three groups,
three gangs, various gangs but including the Black Guerrilla Family, the
Bloods and Crips, they believe that in a partnership was formed to takeout
law enforcement officers in the area and that at around 2:00. They begin
to tweet that there was activity happening in the area that`s about two to
three hours, almost three hours ago, we can see what vehicle here still on
fire, we`ve seen two or three at a time in this live picture that we`ve
been able to show you.
There has been some response from the White House, from an official saying
the White House is monitoring the situation in Baltimore. President Obama
is back at the White House at the moment and there are several other police
departments that are watching this of course. New Haven is one. The New
York Police Department is also watching what is happening there on the
ground as well as Connecticut and various other states.
I want to also let you know that we just heard from the Baltimore Orioles
and they have a game tonight at 7:05 and that game with the Chicago White
Sox at this moment from what we`re hearing will be happening now. That
ball park is very -- is somewhat close to the locations that we`re watching
here at the CVS pharmacy but at this hour, that is what we know in terms of
the very latest happening in Baltimore, Maryland.
I want to bring in now, Paul Henderson, Veteran Prosecutor and Legal
Analyst, Pastor Michael McBride, the National PICO Network, Jim Cavanaugh,
MSNBC Law Enforcement Analyst and bring back Tessa Aston-Hill, President of
the Baltimore Branch of the NAACP.
Paul, as we were just discussing, you know, the issues of the case and what
is happening there on the ground inter linked as witnesses, I`ve said,
Tessa told us moments ago that, you know, they were saying the name of
Freddie Gray. This was what`s for Freddie Gray and if recent experience or
recent events give us any indication. The discussion might be happening.
Can local law enforcement handle what is happening right now? What`s your
PAUL HENDERSON, VETERAN PROSECUTOR AND LEGAL ANALYST: Well, here`s the
thing. And I just want to point out even as we`re looking and watching
these unfold, I just have to say we have to recognize that the majority of
these rallies and the majority of these gatherings that we have been having
and hearing about in association with this tragedy, have been utterly and
And so, it`s certainly disappointing that we see the behavior today but I
think it`s bigger and it`s beyond just Freddie Gray.
It`s disappointing that it`s happening on the day that we had his funeral
and also, the day that we have the first day where Loretta Lynch is being
sworn in as Attorney General.
But let`s take a step backwards because Freddie Gray represents the latest
controversy in association with a series of African-American man who have
encounter with law enforcement and I`ll even say security officers as well
because I want to wrap in (inaudible) into that as well, that results in
death. And that`s the bigger problem. And that`s the issue.
Now, certainly, these controversies as they are evolving, and it is very
similar, and it is tied to the anger and the frustration from business
franchise communities that we`ve seen in Ferguson in the past.
I`ll tell you, one of the things that does not help is that the police
department has made excuses and has given defenses there on a local level,
and that is not what communities want to hear.
Here is what I think would be most helpful for elected officials and for
agencies to be doing, is to come out and give as much information as they
can early on.
LUI: Paul, stand by for a second...
LUI: Paul, hang on. One second.
LUI: We simply watching a live police chase from one of the chopper cams
that we`ve been streaming live video from...
LUI: ... in the downtown area. Now, that is ongoing and we see the
activities there in the area. And I just want to -- one last beat here,
Paul, as -- from your legal perspective, and I was noting just a moment
ago, and that was the credible threat.
They believed there were three gangs, and they put out in that statement...
HENDERSON: ... that they had formed some sort of pack to act out against
the officers. What do you make of that?
HENDERSON: An alliance?
LUI: Right. What do you make of that?
HENDERSON: And I think that`s always a problem. Anytime that you have an
alliance to engage in criminal conduct against anyone, that`s a problem.
I just don`t want that to diminish. The significance of the problem that
the community is frustrated about, the individual bad actors that are
engaging in criminal behavior, certainly, it`s easy to be very judgmental
of that, and we all should be judgmental of that.
I just don`t want the bigger message lost. I don`t want there to be a
desperate treatment focused on the looting that we have...
HENDERSON: ... the vandalism that we have. Those are problems as well.
No one is going to agree that that`s what should be taking place but we do
have a bigger problem, and that`s what I want to focus on.
I want to make sure that we`re still all paying attention to the bigger
picture and not just addressing that CVS got broke into.
LUI: Right. And Paul...
HENDERSON: I`m very concern about...
LUI: That concern has been very consistent, and I think that those
watching this understand there, is this umbrella or this foundation
whichever way you`d like to say it. That is having this sort of a fact,
and it`s not the core of that umbrella or that foundation but it`s
certainly a symptom of it and that you -- so we`ll put it there.
Jim Cavanaugh, MSNBC Law Enforcement Analyst, one last question then,
again, on what we`re looking about, what we got from the police department
saying that there is this alliance, this pack between three gangs on the
ground there. And that, therefore, is why we might be seeing what`s
happening today, and why seven officers according to the police department
What do you know about that? What your reaction to that report?
JIM CAVANAUGH, MSNBC LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, Richard, the police
department has to take that threat serious, and they said they thought it
was a credible threat. You know, gangs like the Black Guerilla Family and
the Crips and Bloods are, you know, widely known for violence. You know,
in ATF, we worked on those gangs all the time. They had guns. They`re
involved in shootings. They`re involved in violence.
So when the police say that`s a credible threat, you know, in the heels of
the two NYPD officers killed in Brooklyn. They have to take it seriously,
and they have to take the appropriate measures to keep the officers safe.
But I think, we`re all concern of, you know, one officer was severely
CAVANAUGH: ... and was unconscious, and others may be suffered some broken
bones. So the department has to do the right things, and looks like a
measured response. So we`re not seeing, you know, them pressing too hard
right here but they`re gathering a forces, you know, darkness is coming.
CAVANAUGH: But when you start seeing arson, you know, things can get bad
LUI: What we are hearing from WBAL, our affiliate there, that they will
begin using tear gas tonight. We -- and there had been some reports of,
perhaps, that happened but at least the WBAL is saying that police
(inaudible), they will plan on using tear gas tonight, our affiliates
Tessa Aston-Hill, President of the Baltimore Branch of the NAACP, what do
you know of these three groups that I just mentioned?
ASTON: Well, I know all of them. I have done some work with a few members
of the Black Guerilla Family that I met accidentally, and most of the time,
they have not done anything to harm others as usually within the group that
they have some arguments which they call family arguments. And the ones
that I`ve accidentally met when I was in court helping some other people,
and they were members.
And I`ve talked to him just to see, you know, to try to engage him to see
how we could be of help to try to change some people`s minds about where
the direction they were going. And I have not in my years of working in
the community seeing them attack anybody outside of their own environment.
I have not seen where they`ve come and attack. And we have not have a lot
of incidents where police have been attacked in Baltimore City in my
LUI: Live pictures again out of Baltimore, Maryland, and some distressing
pictures if you`ve been watching for our viewers here as cars have been
That`s undetectable in terms of whether or not they`re law enforcement
vehicles but individuals in the streets chasing them and appears to be
throwing items at these cars as they`re going by, and then this police
vehicle which we had several shots of so far today.
And it appears just strictly based on these pictures because we`ve been
looking at for the last hour on MSNBC. You`ve been watching these pictures
for several hours.
It doesn`t seem to be dissipating as we see the evening come and we heard
from our affiliate at WBAL that they do intend -- the police department,
they are to use tear gas, and the police department also is saying,
"Parents, please bring in your children. Get your children home faster".
Michael McBride of the National PICO Network, I can imagine what you are
thinking as a leader of the community there, as a leader of faith.
MICHAEL MCBRIDE, NATIONAL DIRECTOR OF PICO NATIONAL NETWORK: Well,
certainly, my heart goes out to family of Freddie Gray and the traumatized
You know, I`m not in Baltimore been, I am in California, I have been in
conversation with the number of our clergy colleagues on the ground, and
I`ll just say this. We need to historicize (ph) the kind of trauma that`s
happening not just in Baltimore but all across the country in black, and
brown in poor communities.
And when get also realize that just this week, we saw in other cities like
Chicago, Rikea Boyd`s killer was not held accountable, Aiyana Jones in
We have these things just bubbling up all over the place. And it is a
historical reality for black and brown communities all across the country,
and that`s why the anger is palpable that`s why it`s blowing over.
One of the longtime civil rights leaders, NAACP said in 1941 when he was
born, his mom enrolled in the NAACP and the number one issue in 1941 for
NAACP was police brutality. So how long -- Dr. King says, riots are the
language of the unheard.
Of course, we should denounce all these troubling demonstrations on
people`s overflowing anger, fear and pain but if we want to understand it,
so we can get some solutions, we can`t speak in platitudes, and we can`t
muddy the waters. The truth is the young people and the families are
reacting in various forms of grief and outrage because another young men in
their community was mutilated, body was broken by the police department,
and they`re continues to be no accountability in real-time, and that is the
issue that we must keep our focus on or we will risk not solving the
LUI: And Pastor, Dr. King also said that peace comes in small bits.
Finish it all, of course, we have -- they need 30 seconds here, Pastor, if
you can. What would be your prayer tonight for this? What would be your
MCBRIDE: My prayer would be that we all would react with great peace, with
our best intentions that everyone would be safe, the young people and the
people in the communities, the law enforcement officers, public officials,
that everyone would be safe. That peace would be seen but that justice
will come swiftly, that people will -- be held accountable, that the rage
will dissipate. And tomorrow, we will wake up with the renewed effort and
focusing commitment to solving the problems that are facing our country and
LUI: Pastor Michael McBride, Paul Henderson, Jim Cavanaugh, Tessa Aston-
Hill, thank you for your time tonight as we watch this breaking story out
That`s the Ed Show. I`m Richard Lui in for Ed Schultz.
PoliticsNation with Reverend Al Sharpton starts right now.
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