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The Ed Show for Thursday, April 30th, 2015

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Date: April 30, 2015
Guest: Bernie Sanders, Paul Henderson

ED SCHULTZ, "THE ED SHOW" HOST: Good evening Americans and welcome to the
Ed Show, live from Washington, D.C.

Let`s get to work.


SCHULTZ: Tonight.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I) VERMONT: I will be running in a sense as

We`re in this race to win.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The timeline, and the evidence, and the information
that we have developed in the story just not match.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know, what happened. They assume they know what
happened. We don`t need a report.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just sick and tired, sick and tired of the foolishness.


SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight, folks. Thanks for watching.
It`s an important day here on the Ed Show, a gentlemen who has appear in
this program quite often joins us tonight, backing up a big announcement.

Earlier today, Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders officially announced that he
will run as a Democrat for the president of the United States. This makes
Senator Sanders that first Democratic challenger to Hillary Clinton.

Many will view this as a good day for democracy and the backdrop of all of
this today is activism in numerous cities across America.

You`re looking live at a March in Philadelphia today, after marches and
protests in New York City last night. This seems to have taken on a life
of its own. There will be marches later on today in Baltimore but this is
the scene in Philadelphia. And we start our interview tonight with Senator
Sanders on this topic.

Senator, good to have you with us tonight.

SANDERS: Great to be with you.

SCHULTZ: Congratulations on this announcement. Certainly, it is a big
challenge for you. But I want to go right to today`s news, Senator.

You are now president of the United States. You see what`s unfolding on
American streets, what`s the problem as you see it? What`s the solution?

SANDERS: Will the problem is that, for many years, police brutality and
the killing of innocent people has not been (inaudible), that`s a fact.

The good news, Ed, is that the American people, not just the African-
American community are saying enough is enough. You can`t hold people in
custody and suddenly find out that they are dead. You can`t shoot people
in the back, you know, in South Carolina. The conservative southern state,
a police officer was charge with murder.

I`m a former mayor. I know that being a cop is not an easy job. But when
police officers misbehave, they`ve got to be held accountable.

The other good news is that, all over this country when people are
beginning to standup and say "enough is enough" change is taking about.
You ask me what I would do as president. Number one, we would fight hard
for police reform, for body cameras, for the training that police officers
need to know how to treat people who in captivity with respect.

But the underlying issue in terms of Freddie Gray`s community as I
understand that the (inaudible) unemployment rate there is...

SCHULTZ: It`s extremely high. It`s almost they`re there and they`ve lost
so many manufacturing jobs over the last 15 years, the city, the community
is not had felt the way or found the way to deal with it.

SANDERS: And, you know, you can have every police officer in America being
a Harvard Law School Graduate and you`re not going to address this issue
unless we get people some hope, unless we give people some opportunity,
that means jobs, that means education. You can`t turn your back on the
collective parts of America.

SCHULTZ: So what would you do if you`re president when it comes to
revitalizing communities like this that are having socioeconomic problems?

SANDERS: Well, I`ll tell you what we`ve already introduce legislation for
a spot. We would invest a trillion dollars in our infrastructure putting
13 million (inaudible), 13 million new jobs rebuilding a roads and bridges
or water systems, a wastewater flux (ph), that would create a whole lot of

I introduce with Congressman John Conyers of Michigan, $5.5 billion job
training and job creating program for young people. You thought employment
in America is 17 percent. African-American youth employment is totally off
the chart. We got to put young people to work, we`ve got to give them an
education rather than putting them in jail.

SCHULTZ: What did you think of the riots the other night? I want to know,
I mean, has the social structure gotten to the point where this is the only
outlet these people had at that particular time. I heard a lot of official
say, "Well, this is in Baltimore". You know, they`re peaceful for a week
until the camera showed up. But it did happen, the riots did happen and it
was in Baltimore.

SANDERS: And so, what`s the solution, what I think? I think there is a
muscles amount of anger and discontent. And I think it has more than just
what happened to Freddie Gray.

I think it is people are saying, how come we are living in the richest
country in the history of the world, our kids can`t go to college, we don`t
have trial care for our kids, we don`t have any jobs. I think that`s
significantly what it`s about.

SCHULTZ: All right. Senator, why are you running? Why are you doing this?
I`ll tell you why I`m doing it. And I feel, you know, it`s my first day
out there and I`m feeling good about it.

This country today, Ed, faces more crisis than we have faced since the
Great Depression, and then to throw in climate change, which the scientist
that telling us is the major global crisis that we faced is probably worst
than (ph) we were in the Great Depression.

I don`t see people talking about this issue, I don`t see politicians
working on this issue, and I think it`s time that we address it.

And getting back to your point, the only way that change takes place in my
view is when millions of people standup and say "enough is enough". And
it`s not just with police brutality.

Enough is enough when the great middle-class of this country is
disappearing, does that happen? That we have more technology and increase
productivity and people are working longer hours for low wages and we have
more people living in poverty than the most anytime in the history of
America. How does that happen?

How does that happen that 99 percent of new income in this country goes to
the top one percent, how does that happen that the top, one-tenth of one
percent owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

These are the central issues facing this country. And then on top of that,
as a result of this disaster, Citizens United, Supreme Court decision. We
are in a moment where billionaires are about to buy the United States
government and undermine American democracy.

SCHULTZ: So why would you be a better president, a better nominee than
Hillary Clinton?

SANDERS: You know, I`m going to let Hillary Clinton speak for herself.

SCHULTZ: Well, let`s talk about how she handle the big issue...

SANDERS: All right.

SCHULTZ: ... and that is trade. Today, her communications team released
an exert from here book saying that she stands with Elizabeth Warren with
it comes to trade and did an exert. I think the American people are
looking more for a direct answer which you have been very direct on this,
you are against trade promotional authority and you are against the TPP.

SANDERS: The TPA would led to a bad trade deal look, Ed...

SCHULTZ: So where do you stand on this and right after President Obama,
after there midterms took place and the Republicans took over the Senate.
This is the first thing that Mitch McConnell talked about the day after
press conference saying that there`s areas that they can work on with the
president, one of them is trade. That was supposed to be a slam dunk.
We`re not almost at May 1st, and they don`t have the votes in the house.
Does that give you an confidence that...

SANDERS: Absolutely.

SCHULTZ: ... the rest would (inaudible) can help you.

SANDERS: I`ve been going around with country. I`ve been talking about the
trade issue. I don`t have to talk about the people increasingly (ph) know
about it. And they are saying, "Look, NAFTA was a disaster, CAFTA was a
disaster, permanent and normal trade relations that China was a disaster,
why do we want to continue down a path?" We have the previous agreements
have lead to the laws of million of these paying jobs. So they asking me,
should the American work be force to compete against somebody in Vietnam
who has a minimum wage $0.56 an hour, y what the answer is? No.

We`ve got a demand that corporate America is now reinvesting in the United
States of America, not trying to -- it is a huge issue. I voted against
all of these agreements. I will help the opposition against the TPP.

SCHULTZ: What about the money? Can you raise enough money to run a
competitive campaign?

SANDERS: One of the hesitant is, I had about going forward with just that.
Clearly, I`m not going to have anyway near the same amount of money as the
other candidates who are going to be probably raising over a billion
dollars. But you know what? I think that we can raise a lot of small
donations today, we open up our website. We announce our candidacy, I believe in the first few hours, we`ve raise already
$0.5 million.

So I think there is a lot of potential out there from people to say,
"Bernie, I can give you a million dollars. I can give you a thousands
dollars. I can give you $50. I think we can raise the money we need to
run a strong campaign.

SCHULTZ: So to run a campaign, so there`s an admission here that you
certainly won`t have the television presence that Hillary Clinton`s
campaign will have. And I have to keep to bringing up Hillary Clinton
because she is the only one on the race beside you. And it might turn out
to be that just it. So what do you think it takes to run a competitive
campaign to organize?

SANDERS: I`ll tell you what it takes. What it requires is and what I have
always done in Vermont, is run strong grassroots campaign. You know, last
campaign that I run, I didn`t put a nickel, not a nickel on TV ads. We put
all of our money into grassroots organization. I got 71 percent of the

So I think what we have to do is go out there, get good organizers, build a
strong volunteer base, work with the labor movement, work with the
environment community, work with the women`s community, and mobilize people
in all across this country to standup and fight back to the billionaire
brother (ph).

SCHULTZ: Do you expect the support of labor?

SANDERS: I think we will have certainly some labor support, absolutely.


SANDERS: The thought to say at this point. I`ve talk to some of the
unions, some of them are sympathetic, some of them may not be. We will

SCHULTZ: But they`re all against the TPP.

SANDERS: Without exception.

SCHULTZ: All of them.

SANDERS: Every single union.

SCHULTZ: This is their issue.

SANDERS: Rich Trumka, the President of AFL-CIO recently reported and said
again, this is a key issue for the AFL-CIO.

SCHULTZ: How would President Bernie Sanders be different from President

SANDERS: I`ll tell you. First of all, I have lot of respect for President
Obama. He is a friend. I have disagreed with him on tax policy, I was on
the floor of the Senate few years ago, for 8.5 hours arguing that he should
not continue some of Bush`s tax rates for the rich. And obviously, we have
strong disagreement on the TPP.

Well, I think the President has made his biggest mistake is that, after his
historic and brilliant 2008 presidential campaign in which he rally the
American people, for what young people into the political process. What he
did after he was elected as kind to say, "Hey, thanks a lot. I appreciate
it, you`re gone. And now I`m going to sit down and argue, and try to
negotiate with John Boehner or with John Boehner. I think that was a
terrible mistake because here`s the truth, Ed, and I`m the only candidate
maybe will have to say this.

No president, not the smartest, best human being in the world can do it
alone. You cannot take on this, the power that is in Washington, to
billionaires and lobbyist, the military industrial complex, all of this
money and power, you can`t do it.

You need a mass movement of American who are looking in congress and we say
directly. If you don`t make college education affordable, you`re out in
here, because we know what`s going on. If you don`t end this huge tax
breaks for the rich, you are out of here.

So what we have got to do, well I call it a political revolution is raise
political consciousness in this country, make people aware of what`s going
in Washington, the importance of politics, get them involved in the
political process and have them standup to the big money interest of today,
have so much power.

SCHULTZ: If you`re president of the United States, what would be your
policy in dealing with ISIS?

SANDERS: This is what I think. ISIS is obviously barbaric organization
has to be defeated. That I will do everything that I can to prevent the
United States getting involve in a another ground war in that country, two
wars in enough (inaudible).

SCHULTZ: Can they be defeated without a ground war?

SANDERS: No. But I think the people who have to wage (ph) the ground war
are not troops from United States of America. You have Saudi Arabia
seating right in that area which has nobody knows this. The third largest
military budget in the world, third largest. You have other very wealthy
and powerful countries, seating in that region. They have got to wage (ph)
the fight for the soul of Islam. We should be supportive along with other
European countries, give them support. I support airstrikes, special
missions. But at the end of the day, it`s going to be, have to be the
Muslim nation themselves who are leading the fight with our support.

SCHULTZ: So say you support airstrikes, what about the use of drone in the
way they`ve been handled in the Obama administration, will you continue

SANDERS: Well, I don`t think it`s a yes or no. Clearly, it has been
counter productive when we kill innocent people including Americans. But
they are one tool that I think is in the arsenal. But clearly, in many
instances, they`ve backfired on us.

SCHULTZ: So drone strikes would continue then if you are president?

SANDERS: In a very selective way.

SCHULTZ: Would the policy change, would there be a different bedding
process on...


SCHULTZ: ... on how to get to that?

SANDERS: Look, we have had some successful drones. We have had a lot of
failures with drone. I think we have to reanalyze what we are doing there.

SCHULTZ: Senator Sanders, you have been really the fighter out front and
the leader when it comes to the conversation of income inequality in

Wall Street, would be in favor of reinstating or advocating for their
reimplementation of Glass-Steagall, was that the beginning of our problems,
the breakup of the commercial and investment banks.

SANDERS: Well, Ed, if you want to go to YouTube, you could see a dialogs
that I had when I was in the house with Alan Greenspan, and taking him on.
He was talking about all of the wonderful benefits of the deregulation of
Wall Street. You know, I told him he was dead wrong then and he was.

I was in -- he is a member of the house, one of the leaders that opposition
of this deregulation. I think it was a tragic mistake but this is what
I`ll you. I would go further than just reinstating Glass-Steagall.

I think what we have got to appreciate is when you have six financial
institutes that have assets equivalent to about 60 percent of the GDP of
America, you know what? Let`s be honest. You can`t regulate that.

SCHULTZ: You breakup the banks.

SANDERS: Absolutely. Absolutely. They are -- if they`re too big to fail,
they are too big to exist. They are issuing 50 percent of the mortgages
and two-thirds of the credit cards in this country.

If Teddy Roosevelt were the president, what do you think he would do?

SCHULTZ: Well, he probably do that.

SANDERS: That`s right.

SCHULTZ: Senator Sanders, stay with us, we`ve got more to come.

Follow us on Facebook and watch my Facebook feature "Give me a minute" and
of course, you can get my video podcast at

Later this hour, we`ll have updates from Baltimore as new details about
Freddie Gray`s case emerge.

Stay tune, more with Senator Sanders on the Ed Show.


SCHULTZ: We are closely monitoring protest and marches in Baltimore and in
Philadelphia tonight. We`ll bring you the latest, coming up. But first
more with Senator Bernie Sanders, what`s he`s background, what is his
answers been like through the years, and what his focus.

That`s all coming up, stay with us here on the Ed Show.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show.

He is a public servant who have not has not had a hard time throughout his
career, telling people what he thinks and what he believes in.


SANDERS: In 1981, I was persuaded by some friends to run for Mayor of
Burlington, the largest city in our state. Nobody but nobody so that we
had a chance to win, we do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Today, is talking about Senator Bernie Sanders, but
back in 1981, Sanders won his first election by just 10 votes.

SANDERS: I would like to see somebody who speaks for the underdog, for the
people who don`t have this in healthcare benefits. So I would like to see
a candidate who has the guts to opposition that America could be a land for
all people, not just the land control by the super rich.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Throughout the years, Bernie Sanders message has been

SANDERS: Go Alabama, go Oklahoma, stand on street corner and say, "Do you
believe that we should cut social security, Medicare and Medicaid and give
tax breaks to billionaires". And they will laugh you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From the start, Sanders made headlines as
unapologetic socialist and a champion of progressive causes.

SANDERS: So I think the reason that we went in and continue to win is
that, increasingly people are frustrated and angry about a two party system
which is dominated by big money and which does not pay attention to needs
of working people or elderly people, or poor people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Sanders moved up to the U.S. House of
Representatives in 1991, long before it was a hot button issue, Sanders
addressed income inequality in one of this first floor speeches.

SANDERS: At the very least, we must demand that those individuals, the
upper income people have seen their real income (inaudible) during the
1980s, start paying their fair share of taxes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After 16 years, serving as Vermont congressman,
Bernie made a run for the Senate and won.

SANDERS: The time is long overdue for the United States Senate and House
to start representing the working families Americas and not the rich and
the powerful.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In 2010, Sanders` eight-hour filibuster against
extending the Bush era tax cuts helped him storm the national stage.

SANDERS: That we don`t need to drive up the national debt by giving tax
breaks to millionaires and billionaires.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now, Sanders is running for president. In the face
of big money and big name brands, there is no doubt Bernie Sanders faces an
uphill battle. But in progressive circles, Sanders is celebrated as the
underdog. He continues to find success by following a very simple formula.

SANDERS: I think if talk common sense to the people and you say the
government is suppose to represent the needs of those people who today are
not getting a fair share (ph), you know what? They`ll vote for you.


SCHULTZ: From the Mayor of Burlington, Vermont to the United States
Senate, Bernie Sanders is taking a very interesting and clear path to this
very day. The Senator joins me again this evening here on the Ed Show.

Senator, we never talked about you that much. We`re always talking about
issues. Why did you get into politics? Why are you doing this for a

SANDERS: You know, Ed, I grew up in a lower middle class family. My dad
came to this country from Poland without a nickel on his pocket and need to
made much money. We lived in a three and a half room rent control
(inaudible) in Brooklyn before I moved to Vermont.

And it was very clear to me as a kid the impact of money had on my family
distress, the arguments that my parents had. You know, see another kids
having benefits of certain other kids didn`t have.

And so, from my earliest years, I understood the importance of income
security as a need for people to have at least the minimal standard of
living to enjoy the kind of life that they are entitled to. So that`s kind
of what`s motivated me.

SCHULTZ: That has motivated you throughout the years?

SANDERS: I`ve never forgotten those experiences.

SCHULTZ: It`s interesting, some of the sound bites that you had back in
yesteryear match to your philosophy today, is it always been that way?

SANDERS: Yeah. The people of Vermont was like, "Oh, God, not again. He`s
saying the same thing for 30 years". But guess what...

SCHULTZ: But your focus on issues is the same as...

SANDERS: But the other thing is and I think the report indicated, more and
more people are catching that (ph). I was talking about these issues 20
years ago before it was popular. But this issue of income and wealth
inequality, Ed, it`s not only in economic issue or a political issue, it is
a moral issue. It is a moral issue.

And by the way, you know the guy who speaks about that most forcefully in
this world, it`s the Pope, Pope Francis.

He raises, this is a moral issue. All we content to have the highest rate
in this country of trials and poverty and at the same time have a
proliferation of millionaires and billionaires. That is a moral issue.

And I think the American people saying no that`s not who we are as a

SCHULTZ: Now, when you go to Iowa and you say that, what`s your reaction?
What`s the reaction of the folks?

SANDERS: I got to tell you, you know, (inaudible) serve you going to --
and people who come out to our meetings.

SCHULTZ: They get it...

SANDERS: ... but the response has been really extraordinary. And not only
in Iowa, all over this country. People are saying enough is enough. Think
about all the things that we can do as a nation. Why can`t we guarantee
healthcare to all people in every other major country does it?

In Germany, many other countries, college tuition is free. Why isn`t free
in America? Why do we have the highest rate of childhood poverty when
other countries have rates much lower than we have? Why don`t we have pay
equity for women workers? Why aren`t we leading the world in transforming
our energy system in terms of climate change?

We can do that. Are we dumb? Are we lazy? Not the case.

SCHULTZ: I want to focus on college.


SCHULTZ: It is expensive. It`s exuberant at this point. Students get
out, strap with debt. The American dream escapes them early on if they
ever going to own their own home and have any kind of financial
independence. What would you do differently?

SANDERS: I`ll tell you what I would do exactly and we`re going to
introduce legislation to do it.

Ed, it will cost us about $70 billion a year of federal money or money in
general, to provide free tuition in every public college and university in
American. $70 billion a year.

The Republicans want to give $269 billion and tax rates to the richest,
5000 families by eliminating the state tax. We lose $110 billion every
year because corporations stash their money in the Cayman Islands and pay
nothing in federal taxes.

I happened to believe if we`re going to be competitive in the global
economy, we need the best educated workforce, we need to encourage kids to
go to college, graduate school, regardless of their income. We can come up
with that money and that`s what I would be fighting for.

SCHULTZ: What`s on your schedule on the next week?

SANDERS: We`re going to be speaking to the AFL-CIO on Saturday in New
Hampshire. We have a branch in Manchester, New Hampshire. On Sunday,
we`ll be doing a national TV show. We`re going to be working very hard on
the United States Senate. I`m the ranking member on the budget committee.

This Republican budget is beyond belief. Tax breaks to billionaires, cuts
for working families throwing 27 million people off the health insurance.
We`re going to be raising hell about that issue as well.

SCHULTZ: All right. Senator Bernie Sanders, obviously, will visit again.
Good to have you with us tonight. Thanks so much.

SANDERS: Thanks. Great to be with you.

SCHULTZ: Still to come on the Ed Show, new information on the death of
Freddie Gray, we`ll have the updates from our reporters in the field in

Stay tuned. We`ll be right back on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. Thanks for watching tonight.

The official charging documents for Freddie Gray`s April 12th arrest have
finally surfaced.

MSNBC`s Joy Reid is in the crowd in a protest in Baltimore tonight. She
obtained the report earlier today and joins us.

Joy, what are the new developments? First of all, where are you and what
are the new developments?

JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT : We are in the middle of a very
big march that started from two different points. One from the east side,
one from the west side of Baltimore, and then, that sort of converge

We are walking towards city hall. The march stretches quite away down in
the other direction. So we are on our way to city hall with a lot of very
enthusiastic Baltimore residents.

SCHULTZ: OK. And what are the new developments? What surface today?
What was in those arresting documents?

REID: So, this was documents -- the documents aren`t exactly new that it
just not widely circulated. And there`d been a lot of people who`ve been
asking the basic question what was Freddie Gray being arrested for?

The charging documents which has circulated some of the local media but
we`ve just obtain them for ourselves at MSNBC today. They indicate that
the charge that was going to be made against Freddie Gray was possession of
a switchblade.

It is illegal in the state of Maryland to possess a knife with a spring

The question is though how did police know to stop him for that because
they arrest -- the charging document said that the knife was found at the
inside of his front pocket. So that means it would have been something
that was exactly visible.

The document also indicate that he was transported to the police department
with no incident, and then he was injured at some point during the ride.
It doesn`t mention the stuffs that we`ve heard about, and it doesn`t
mention any details about those injuries, Ed.

SCHULTZ: OK. As you see in our screen tonight, exactly what the charge
would have been. What is the reaction to that information that is come out
today from the folks in Baltimore so much police force for a such a minor

REID: Yeah. I mean everything about this case elicit extreme skepticism
of people who are marching, people who are part of this growing movement
here in the city. Very skeptical about the police account, very skeptical
about sort of the rumors, and report, and leaks that are going to news
organization like the Washington Post essentially blaming Freddie Gray for
the injuries that he suffered. So there`s a great deal of skepticism and
the I think a lot of people are anticipating that there won`t really be
what this marcher want as justice. So I think we`re all the sort of
waiting for the information that filter out to those who are part of this

SCHULTZ: All right. Joy Reid reporting on the Ed show tonight from the
streets of Baltimore, where the marches are taking place. Thank you, we`ll
be back to you later in this broadcast. We`ll have more from Baltimore
with MSNBC Reporter Trymaine Lee right after this stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed show.

We continue our coverage from Baltimore tonight. And we have some breaking
news in the new details in the investigation surrounding Freddie Gray`s
death after being reported.

ABC`s Washington affiliate WJLA is reporting Gray`s fatal injuries were not
cause during his video tape arrest. WJLA is citing multiple law
enforcement sources who say his injury was caused when he slammed into
something in the police van that he was traveling in, apparently breaking
his neck. Sources also say a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in
the back of the van.

Meanwhile, NBC affiliate WBLA`s Jayne Miller had an interview with a
prisoner who is in the police van with Freddie Gray.


DONTE ALLEN, BALTIMORE RESIDENT: By that morning, 8:00 to 12:00. I went
in the basement store right here on Penn-North Avenue to get a cigarette,
you know, what I mean.

West Baltimore resident who is picked up by city police the morning of
April 12th on suspicion of a minor offense, it happened at the corner of
Pennsylvania North Avenues. The city`s camera system recorded the van that
arrived to pick up Allen the same van that at the very same time was
carrying Freddie Gray.

Allen did not know a man was already in the van Freddie Gray was on the
right side Allen was loaded on the left side, a solid dividers separated
them. In an interview Allen describe what he heard.

Once you got in the van what did you hear?

ALLEN: When I got in the van, I didn`t hear nothing. It was a smooth ride
we went straight to the police station. All I heard was like a little
banging for about four seconds, you know, what I mean.

MILLER: You actually heard.

ALLEN: . I just heard little banging, you know, just as just little, you
know, I mean "boom-boom" just little banging, just little banging.

MILLER: Allen described what he told homicide detective when questioned.

Did you tell the police that you heard him banging his head against the

ALLEN: I told homicide that. I don`t work for the police. I did not tell
the police, nothing.

MILLER: According to the autopsy on Gray, there is no evidence that Gray
hit his head against anything on his own. His fatal neck and spinal injury
was a kin to the (inaudible) suffered in a car accident. It needed that
amount of force and energy.

Sources have old us that by the time Allen was loaded Gray was
unresponsive. You can see officers at that stop looking into the Gray`s
side of the van with its doors fully open.

Medical experts said as Gray`s condition deteriorated after the injury
occurred. He may have suffered seizures. Allen told us what he did hear
when the van arrived at the Western District.

ALLEN: When we got to the police station, they said he didn`t have no
pulse or nothing. They called his name, "Hey, Mr. Gray, Mr. Gray?" then he
wasn`t responding


SCHULTZ: And joining us tonight on the Ed show is Jayne Miller who is an
investigative reporter for NBC affiliate WBAL.

Jayne, thanks for your time tonight.


SCHULTZ: What did you learn from the other prisoner?

MILLER: Well, I think what we learned from the other prisoner is that is
the -- what is account to an investigator ends up in this search warrant
affidavit which was reported by the Washington Post which becomes the
headline, you know, that Freddie Gray may have injured himself. And you
got to kind of walk that back.

The second prisoner Donte Allen can`t see Mr. Gray and he said to us you,
he don`t even know he was in there.

I think what`s important is to understand that what we have reported, we
get to put all these pieces together what we have reported is that prior to
Mr. Allen being picked up as the second prisoner there was a stop in the
van because the van driver suspected it appears suspected something was
wrong called for officers to come and check the prisoner.

At that point, according to police commanders, those officers should have
called for a medic. They didn`t. They then go one way and double back to
pick up Mr. Allen.

What we have reported according to sources is when officers open that door
which you can see them do and look in that van with the door wide open, Mr.
Gray was unresponsive.

So what is it that Donte Allen is hearing on that part of the trip.
According to medical experts when you suffer that kind of injury that
severe neck and spinal injury which is slowly taking the breath out of you
because that part in you`re the neck, the upper part of your neck in the
cervical areas what controls your breathing. As that starts to happen, you
may suffer seizures and that maybe what was -- what the noise was that
Donte Allen was hearing.

There is no evidence in the autopsy that suggest that Freddie Gray slammed
the head on it`s own into inside of the van. He would have other injuries
on him that would indicate that and they don`t exist.

SCHULTZ: Jayne, how`s the community reacting to this tonight? There are
still so many questions surrounding all of this is to what actually happen
inside that van.

MILLER: Well, Ed, I think, you know, first of all, there is video of the
initial arrest which look to be painful and it probably was because the
police -- the procedure must police use when they put you in a van like
that doesn`t feel good. So a lot of attention went to that oh, you know,
they broke his leg, they did something to him there, that our reporting
from the beginning really focus on what went on inside the van.

So the other thing that is happened here is that two weeks ago the city`s
police commissioner, you know, set that May 1st date which was taken by a
lot of people on the city domain that by May 1st, we have all the answers
and, you know, that whatever was going happen by May 1st in terms of, you
know, who, what, when and where and who, all of that what`s going to happen
by May 1st.

That was an unreasonable expectation. It doesn`t mean that something
couldn`t happen by then. But certainly, the end of this case is not going
to happen on May 1st.


MILLER: So that expectation, yet they really try to back down from that
but I think there are people that are really concern about what is the
expectation is in the community versus what the reality is of an
investigation like this.

SCHULTZ: All right. Investigator reporter from WBAL Jayne Miller with us
tonight here on the Ed Show. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

I want to bring in Trymaine Lee MSNBC National Reporter who is joining us
live from Baltimore.

Trymaine, this story that`s developing now about what may or may not have
happen in the back of the van, this has to be spreading through the
community, what kind of reaction are you hearing?

TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC NATIONAL REPORTER: Oh that certainly, one part is this
relief, people from the very beginning didn`t believe that Freddie Gray in
anyway cause his own injury. Many said that they believe the police are
trying to kind of see the ground and they expected that.

But the one thing that I`ve heard over and over again was that Freddie Gray
should never been in police custody in the first place. They wonder why he
was detained in the first place, he shouldn`t be in that. From the report
they said they initially made eye contact and he ran off.

And so that`s the problem for many people out here who were saying that the
police routinely stop black people and young black man particularly for
petty offenses. And he said, you know, one thing we don`t know all the
facts but we do know is that Freddie Gray is dead and he shouldn`t be.

SCHULTZ: What is -- you had a chance to go out on the street today and
talked to some people, what did you hear?

LEE: You get the whole range of emotions. One is that they want the
process to be transparent. They want answers. They want this process
again to move smoothly so that everyone can move on because, again, a
motions are still very much on edge, even though we`ve had a few days of
calm, people are anxious and concern. They want justice and they want

Let`s take to listen now what some of these folks had say on the ground.


SCHULTZ: All right. We did not have that videotape. They had it queued
up but it didn`t run, Trymaine. So, if you could just tell us.

Are the emotions starting to ramp up now that, you know, the police did not
release investigated details and there seem to be some discrepancies from
what`s in the report and also what folks, or eyewitnesses are saying. What
about that?

LEE: I`ll tell you what, Ed. I don`t get the sense that emotions are
necessarily ramping up any differently that they`ve been for the last few
days but what you see in this kind of more coordinated effort in this

Just now, we walked our way from the west side, several hundred people and
we joined another group of -- a couple or several hundred from another

Now, we`re headed towards city hall. And so, you don`t see a flaring of
any emotions that are any different than they`ve been a last couple of
days. But you`re seeing a more concerted effort to unify and push for

So individually, people are upset about the way things are playing out.
But again, they`re more determined than ever to keep pushing, keep
protesting. Again, these crowds continue to get bigger, more organized...


LEE: ... from yesterday`s very diverse crowd of college students, so this
which is a majority black crowd today.

SCHULTZ: And finally, Trymaine, the National Guard presence, is that still
the same as it`s been in the recent nights, what about tonight?

LEE: I think, what`s been very interesting is that even though we know
there effort of 2000 and so National Guard troops here, their presence is,
you know, you don`t really see them out there. You don`t see a certain

It doesn`t seem like they are impacting the general environment at all
aside from, you know, a few streets here, a few streets there being close
off with their weapons but their presence isn`t necessarily even be unfelt.

And what`s also interesting with this march all the way from the west side,
it was led by police and back by police but you didn`t see any real
amassing along the side and again, this kind of a far walk.

There is a few miles -- few miles walks but their presence is little to
none but the crowd has been...


LEE: ... peaceful, large and exuberant but peaceful, no problems.

SCHULTZ: Trymaine Lee, MSNBC National Reporter with us from Baltimore this
evening. Thanks, Trymaine. I appreciate it.

We`re keeping an eye on Baltimore. We`ll have more on the latest details
and news in the Freddie Gray case coming up next. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: And marches continue on the East Coast. You`re looking live at
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania as a large crowd as gathering to protest. And,
of course, we`ll have more coverage on this here on the Ed Show and on

When we come back, Paul Henderson, Veteran Prosecutor will give us his
legal analysis on the latest developments and discrepancies that seem to be
coming out of this entire ordeal.

Stay with us. You`re watching the Ed Show on MSNBC. We`ll be right back.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show.

There are continuing coverage of the protest and the marches that are
taking place on cities around the country. You`re looking live at

The Freddie Gray case obviously has taken on a life of its own and it`s
ignited a debate in this country about so many facets of our society.

And as far as the case is concern, there is leaking information, there`s
more private cameras that are supplying information to law enforcement and
we do not know for sure what happened inside that van.

Fore more on this, let`s go to Paul Henderson, Veteran Prosecutor and Legal

Mr. Henderson, good to have you with us tonight. Can we...


SCHULTZ: Based on what has unfolded today, a new information out there,
isn`t trust an issue right now in a big way with the public when it comes
to these investigator reports over the details or basically leaking out?

HENDERSON: It absolutely, especially because we are dealing with an
information vacuum. The only information that we have are the videotapes
that have come from the community and none of the agencies that are
involved in this incident.

And at this point, now that we`re starting to receive these leaks, it`s
raising more questions than it provides answers, specifically because now
we`re getting information that he may have injured himself, Mr. Gray, which
I find a little incredulous, since he was bound and handcuff. But that
raises the question, again, of should he have been had his seatbelt on
while he was in the van, and what difference that would have made if any,
and how is any of this information going to be corroborated without more
information from the officers that were involved. Which, again, this leads
to the bigger question of what is going on with the officers that were
involve because they are being evaluated from the state attorney general
who is investigating whether or not their charges should be brought.

And charges can also be brought against whomever has leak some of this
reports because this is private and confidential information associated
with ongoing investigation...


HENDERSON: . so whomever is behind this reports could face misdemeanor or
felony charges depending on what they`ve released and what they`ve leaked
if they can identify who is responsible.

So I think it`s a big deal and I know that the community is upset his
community and others they`re demanding more from our justice system and
really they`re demanding two things, they want transparency and they want
accountability. And so far and this case, they`re getting neither.

SCHULTZ: As a veteran prosecutor looking at this how would get a
conviction when it`s here say inside the van we really don`t know.


SCHULTZ: . what happen inside the van.

HENDERSON: You don`t know what went on inside the van. You`ll get around,
some of the hearsay restrictions by having witnesses testify to -- excited
other (inaudible) that they hear.

So if they hear someone screaming, if they hear someone yelling out, if
they someone in pain, those are excited other (inaudible). And then you
will have the direct testimony from the officers who -- were involved who
are able to articulate and say what they did and what they saw, and that
won`t be hearsay.

And again, remember there three groupings of those officers specifically
those that were involved in the initial detention, be subsequent arrest and
then in the transportation. And then you`ll overlay all of that evidence
and all of that testimony to really find out what happened and then, we`re
bring in side evidence form the medical examiner that should cooperate some
version of the story. We don`t know because we don`t have any consistence


HENDERSON: . again, because we`re operating out of informational vacuum.
There`s no information really being release that`s helpful.

SCHULTZ: And quickly, I want to get your take on the private cameras that
reveal that there was another stop made by the van and to my knowledge, it
was not revealed by the police officers. It was a video tape that show
that there was yet another van stop, doesn`t this undermine, if that`s the
case, undermine the credibility of the police officers and I don`t mean to
pick of them.

HENDERSON: Yes. Absolutely.

SCHULTZ: . but how do you appease that together I mean why wasn`t that in
the report?

HENDERSON: Absolutely. That could be a real problem. So if in fact the
outside evidence form the community shows that there were stops that were
not indicated or clarified or recorded in the police report that means.


HENDERSON: . something. That`s not something that is inconsistent are
just a mere inconsistency or a mistake it would be made and a big case like
this. So yes that will come in and it will challenge testimony or
someone`s report.

SCHULTZ: All right. Paul Henderson, thanks to your time tonight.

Coming up in the Ed show NBC`s Rehema Ellis will give us an update on what
do we expect from Baltimore tonight as the marches continues.

Stay with us, you`re watching the Ed Show on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ: And finally tonight, crowds are peacefully marching in the
streets of Philadelphia and in Baltimore.

For more on what is going on Baltimore, let`s go to NBC`s Rehema Ellis for
a snapshot of what is expected tonight. Rehema?

REHEMA ELLIS, NBC REPORTER: Ed, what`s happening out right here now, the
weather is tuned. It`s got windy and there is also rain falling at the
same time. We had about 500 people, you can see them behind me. Here,
right by the steps of city hall.

They`ve got signs that say "Justice for Freddie Gray", "Black Live Matter"
and their hands are up.

People have said to me that -- what they want is to know what`s going on,
they want information. A woman I was just talking to said, the lack of
information is creating anxiety among the people. And they would rather
know than not know. If you want to have people calm down she says, tell
them what`s going on. Ed?

SCHULTZ: So there`s a level of frustration a growing amongst the
protesters that they want more information forth coming. Are you hearing
that through the crowd? I mean is this seem to be a theme that is taking
on right now the last 24 hours?

ELLIS: Absolutely. But I don`t think it`s only in the last 24 hours.
I`ve been hearing this ever since I got here at the beginning of the week
people were saying they want to know.

As you know, Freddie Gray, this situation with him happened at the
beginning of April 12th. We`re now looking at April 30 and so. This is
been a while that people are saying tell us what is happening. And the
lack of information to them is something that makes them feel
uncomfortable, suspicious, weary of whether or not they`re going to get
information when they`ll get it, and what kind of information it will be.
Will it be the truth as one person said and everything as far as the truth
is concern.

SCHULTZ: Faith leaders in the community are certainly pleading with the
people to remain peaceful for the third straight night.

Rehema Ellis reporting live from Baltimore tonight here on the Ed show
thanks so much. The faith leaders doing all they can to make sure that
this night of marches comes off without incident.

That`s the Ed show I`m Ed Schultz, PoliticsNation with Reverend Al Sharpton
starts right now.

Good evening Rev.


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