updated 5/6/2015 9:00:23 AM ET 2015-05-06T13:00:23

Date: May 5, 2015
Guest: John Brabender, Wes Moore, Cokie Roberts, Nedra Pickler

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: The enemy within.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Philadelphia.

It`s one thing to watch the map and see ISIS in Iraq and Syria. It`s
another to see two men in Texas open fire and have ISIS take the credit.
To what extent is it ISIS as an organization and to what extent is it
people living in our country who decide to do its terrorist work? And what
will the presidential candidates offer between now and 2016 to defend us?

I`m joined now by MSNBC political analyst David Axelrod, former senior
adviser to President Obama, and Republican strategist John Brabender.

The history of terrorist attacks on American soil certainly includes
the 1968 assassination of then presidential candidate Robert Kennedy. The
killer, Sirhan Sirhan, was a Palestinian who targeted Kennedy for his
support of Israel, and he carried out the attack as retribution on the
first anniversary of the Six Day War.

Twenty-five years later, in 1993, terrorists detonated a truck bomb at
the World Trade Center, intending to take down both towers. The explosives
killed just six people, but the towers remained. Then, of course, there
was the tragic event of September 11, 2001, perpetrated by al Qaeda.

More recently, there was the case of a U.S. major, an Army major,
Nidal Hasan, who carried out an al Qaeda-inspired shooting at Ft. Hood in
2009. In 2013, the Tsarnaev brothers self-radicalized then (ph) before
carrying out the Boston Marathon bombing. Last year, a Muslim convert
attacked four police officers in New York with a hatchet. And now ISIS has
claimed responsibility for the shooting Sunday in Garland, Texas.

David Axelrod, this question, it`s a conundrum for most people who
want to be safe, want their families to be safe, their countries safe. Is
this an organized set of events, or is it a splinter operation where some
people get inspired by these calls to Islamism and act as terrorists
without any call from overseas?

question. But I think we should separate out September 11 from some of
these other actions because September 11 was obviously planned overseas.
It was a major operation.

We haven`t seen one of those since that time because through two
administrations, there`s been a big effort to -- and we`ve gotten much
better at interdicting those kinds of episodes. And of course, al Qaeda
central has been pulverized in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

But there is this problem, Chris. The great threat, the great worry,
are lone wolves and people who slip out of the country and get back in with
now having been trained to do -- to perform terrorist acts. And this is --
this is the era in which we live, and it calls for vigilance. I don`t
think it calls for panic, and it -- and we shouldn`t do that, but we have
to be vigilant and keep an eye on people who show a propensity for this
kind of action.

MATTHEWS: You know, John, what I do one, every time there`s one of
these incidents -- and I did it the other day -- is when I hear the names
of the people, I wait to see if there`s some evidence that they come from
another country, they have loyalties through their families to somewhere in
Mideast, and that would explain it to me, and it gives me a little sense of
confidence that this thing`s rational.

And then when I hear, like, one of the other guys yesterday was a
convert, an American -- African-American guy who became a convert, I go,
Oh, my God, this thing could get out of hand because it becomes an
ideology, a theology that could go pretty much anywhere.

real important thing with the whole distinction with, say, Sirhan Sirhan.
They were lone wolves in the sense that they weren`t tracked, like
eventually, the 9/11 and others, but they were doing it not just for their
own self-service but to also -- for motivations and for the pleasure of
others and to impress others.

And what this signifies to me is that we have now taken this to a new
level, but I don`t think anybody in this country realizes how serious this
is, and I think there`s two reasons.

I think the failure in Iraq is now when we say something is very
serious, we don`t always believe it, and frankly, I think that it was a
mistake when President Obama called ISIS the JV team because that was to
give comfort that we don`t have to take them as serious as I think we

MATTHEWS: Well, you`ve just done what I thought you would do, and
David has done the same thing. You are giving me a sense of terror as
working, that we should be afraid, and David is saying Keep this thing in
proportion. So tell me why you think it`s a -- it`s a danger to our
country in the near future, ISIS. Just take that example you mentioned.

BRABENDER: Well, the first thing we have to do is look overseas and
see that they have had success. They have grown significantly. They`ve
executed very sophisticated operations. So we see this isn`t just a bunch
of hoodlums gathering together. This is an organization.

Second of all, this is in our back yard, and fortunately, it was
derailed yesterday, but it...


MATTHEWS: What is in our back yard?

BRABENDER: Well, this was down in Texas. I`m saying it -- we believe
this was part of this. They`re claiming -- ISIS, if nothing else, is
claiming that this was part of their operation. We don`t know for sure.

But the point is, nothing bad happened, fortunately, because we -- we
spoiled it, but it could have. And I guarantee you if there was one injury
that was serious, one death, this would be over the news like it should be.
And I just think that all the candidates running for president and this
administration has to understand this is not the JV team.

MATTHEWS: How do you know that ISIS was behind the shootings
yesterday, the other day?

BRABENDER: I don`t know, but...

MATTHEWS: You just said that they were.

BRABENDER: But what we do know is that...

MATTHEWS: No, you said they were. Why do you say they were?

BRABENDER: What we do know is that it was ISIS-motivated. At least,
that`s what ISIS is claiming. And this will lead others that want to join
and make -- are motivated to make ISIS happy because they want to belong to
this organization. This makes it very serious on our soil. And it would a
huge mistake for us not to contemplate that that`s a possibility.

MATTHEWS: David, is this going to be the debate in 2016 between the
conservatives, the Republicans who say that every act of terrorism, whether
it`s lone wolf or wherever, is somehow part of an orchestrated attack on
this country that`s the responsibility of this president for not having hit
ISIS harder over there in the Mideast.

AXELROD: Well, I mean, it may be a debate within the Republican
primary. I would hope -- you know, we used to say that politics should end
at the water`s edge. This is another issue on which we should just
concentrate on the fact that we have a challenge, and that is that in the
age of social media, a lot of people who for whatever reason are
susceptible to these kinds of messages are motivated to go out and do

Just as we see people going -- we`ve seen mass murders in this country
in the last 10 years by people who were motivated by other things. But
we`ve got to be vigilant about, obviously, seeing if there are any ties and
stopping anything that`s a plan. And the government`s been pretty
successful at that, but also tracking these people.

But listen, I don`t think -- the night before President Obama took
office, we were dealing with the potential of four teenagers, Somali-
American teenagers, who had gone overseas. There was a worry that they had
come back and that they were going to perform some sort of terrorist act on
inauguration day.

I didn`t blame that on the Bush administration. That`s the nature of
the times in which we live. So instead of trying to, as we often do, turn
these things to political advantage, we should have rational discussions
about the nature of the threat and the things that we can do as a country
to deal with it.

MATTHEWS: John, is it true that whenever there`s a terrorist threat,
even a lone wolf in this country, that it`s somehow the responsibility and
actually caused by the president`s failure?

BRABENDER: No, I don`t think all the blame can certainly be put at
the president. I think that there has been some successes that have been
out there. As I said, I`m deeply troubled that we decided to call this
organization the JV team when that turned out not to be true. But I think
it would also be unfair to say that everything goes bad is this president`s

What I do think, though, is that there should be an elevated concern,
and I think there should be a national civil dialogue on taking this
seriously and what we`re going to do about it.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s take a look at these interesting polls because
the difference in the two arguments, or two sides of the arguments, is very
much reflective, for better or worse, of the way the partisan line is drawn
in this country.

We got a brand-new "Wall Street Journal"/NBC poll just came out
yesterday that found that Republican primary voters, the rank-and-file
voters, put national security and terrorism as their number one priority
for the federal government. Deficit spending is second, jobs and the
economy is third, energy production is fourth.

By comparison, David, the Democratic primary voters consider jobs and
the economy to be their top issue -- jobs and the economy. They ranked
health care second, climate change third, and then national security and
terrorism is ranked fourth.

Why do you think, David, that Democrats put national security and
terrorism at the bottom, at least way down further on the list than the
Republicans do?

AXELROD: Well, first of all, I`m always suspicious of polls that give
people lists to respond to because it kind of limits the way -- the way
they -- they respond to these things. But you know, I think most
Americans, not just Democrats, fundamentally live with economic challenges
every day that are going to define this next election. I think that the
national security issue had been subdued over the last -- before the

MATTHEWS: Not with Republicans.

AXELROD: ... election because -- because of the way President Obama
hit al Qaeda very hard and took bin Laden out, and so it really wasn`t a
big issue in the last campaign. It`s now reemerged. And may be a big
issue within the Republican primary. I don`t think it`s the issue that`s
going to determine the next election.

MATTHEWS: John, do you agree? I don`t agree. I think Republicans
are going to make this a national security election.

BRABENDER: Well, I think it will. And I will tell you, I`ve seen
polls for the last four years, and it wasn`t always at the top. It was
about fourth and fifth. Now it is at the top. By way of example, in the
last presidential race, in the primaries, there were 22 debates and only
one on national policy. (sic) That`ll be completely different this time.
Republican primary voters are concerned, as you said. Plus, this is a huge
differentiation for the candidates running against Hillary Clinton, quite

MATTHEWS: I think it`s going to be a big election with the Democrats
pushing domestic issues and the improvement in the health care in the
country and better jobs and a better track record, this president on jobs,
and the Republicans are going to be talking about the very things I think
Brabender just did, which is fear of what we`re facing from the terrorism
from the Arab world.

Anyway, thank you, David Axelrod and John Brabender, a great
illustration of the debate that`s coming up.

By the way, coming up here tonight, get ready for the debates, the
real debates. The Democrats announced today they`ll hold six presidential
debates for their party candidates this fall. And one of the challengers
to Hillary Clinton will be our next guest, Senator Bernie Sanders of
Vermont. He`s coming here right now.

So what does Senator Sanders have to debate with Hillary Clinton?
We`ll try to find out where this fight`s going between the challenger and
the front-runner. We`ll find out that coming up next, as I said.

And speaking of Hillary Clinton, she`s not ducking those House
Republicans who want answers about Benghazi and her personal e-mail server.
She says she`ll testify in public for as long as it takes.

And here comes Huckabee. He won Iowa back in 2008. Does he have the
muscle to do it again against people like Scott Walker, Rick Santorum and
Ted Cruz?

Finally, "Let Me Finish" with a question of weapons.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Hillary Clinton`s campaigning out in Las Vegas. She took
part in a roundtable event at a heavily Latino high school, where she
called for a full and equal path to citizenship for undocumented
immigrants. Here she is.


So I will fight for comprehensive immigration reform and a path to
citizenship for you and for your families across our country. I will fight
to stop partisan attacks on the executive actions that would put dreamers,
including those with us today, at risk of deportation. And if Congress
continues to refuse to act, as president, I would do everything possible
under the law to go even further.


MATTHEWS: We`ll be back right after this.



Clinton has been part of the political establishment for many, many years.
I have known Hillary for some 25 years. I respect her and I like her.

People weren`t so sure I could beat the richest person in Vermont to
become United States senator. So I would say don`t underestimate me.


MATTHEWS: Welcome to HARDBALL. That was Vermont senator Bernie
Sanders who is challenging Hillary Clinton in the 2016 Democratic
primaries. Sanders is the longest-serving independent in the history of
the United States Congress. He spent 16 years in the House of
Representatives (INAUDIBLE) now in his second term in the U.S. Senate. Now
Senator Sanders says he wants to be president, and he`s taking on the
Clinton machine, if you will. Senator Bernie Sanders joins us now.

Senator Sanders, thanks you so much. I salute your guts. And my
question to you is, do you have a romantic sense of memory and nostalgia
for when another senator, Eugene McCarthy, went up to New Hampshire and
challenged another senator, former senator, for the presidential nomination
of the Democratic Party in `68? Do you feel like this could be the big
challenge to the front-runner?

SANDERS: Well, I do. I do, Chris. What I was wondering about, when
I was thinking about running for president, is whether, in fact, we could
put together the kind of strong grass roots movement we needed to rally the
American people against the grotesque level of income and wealth inequality
and the absurd campaign finance system we have today.

And guess what? Five days after I announced, we have now close to
200,000 people, including many in New Hampshire and Iowa, who are prepared
to stand up and fight back, so I feel pretty good.

MATTHEWS: How do you beat big money? Because you know it`s there.
You know, I ran in a Democratic primary when I was in my 20s on the issue
of big money. I didn`t have any money. You know, it`s very tough because
you turn on the TV -- we`re on TV right now -- and you watch the TV ads,
which are paid for with money. And how do you say, I`m going to get my
message across some other way? How do you do it?

SANDERS: Well, Chris, you`ve asked maybe the major political question
of our time. Look, as a result of this disastrous Supreme Court decision
on Citizens United, the Koch brothers and other billionaire families are
buying elections. We are seeing the undermining of American democracy.

All I can say is I`m not going to have a super-PAC. Billionaires are
not going to support me. But what we have raised are tens of thousands of
people -- I think we`re over 50,000 who have contributed an average, Chris,
of $43 to BernieSanders.com, our Web site.

So can -- we`re not going to outspend our opponents. But can we raise
the kinds of money we need to run a strong campaign based on strong small
donations? I think we can.

MATTHEWS: Let me talk to -- ask you about -- I don`t know about your
ideology, and it may be developing. Mine does. Is there a connection
between this wealth and the hawkishness of the foreign policy, certainly in
the Republican Party -- and I wonder if it`s going to creep into the
Democratic Party -- whereby historically, people with big money, lots to
protect, if you will, including Nelson Rockefeller even, who was a moderate
on other issues, are very hawkish, very hawkish?

I`m not just talking about the Koch brothers. I`m talking about all
the people, Adelson, all the rest of them, and Donald Trump. They`re such
hawks, and they love talking it. You know, war, war, war, war, war.

SANDERS: That`s right.

MATTHEWS: Do you think there`s a connection?

SANDERS: I do. Look, I mean, when we talk about big money in
politics, let`s not forget what Dwight David Eisenhower reminded us. You
remember that?


SANDERS: About the power of the military-industrial complex. That
was back in 1960. That power has been magnified many, many times. These
guys want more and more for defense.

And I fear very much, Chris, that your point is right. You`ve got a
lot of Republicans -- and it scares me to death -- who apparently feel good
about perpetual warfare in the Middle East, who are trying to sabotage what
the president is trying to do in terms of preventing Iran from getting a
nuclear weapon.

That scares me very much, and I think it speaks to the power of the
military-industrial complex.

MATTHEWS: Now, you have a very strong avenue, it looks like -- you
never know what the Democratic National Committee is going to do, but
apparently, they`re going to set up at least a half dozen debates. The
party`s going to recognize those debate. Do you expect to participate in
those against the probable front-runner, Senator Clinton?

SANDERS: Absolutely. Of course.

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s a good answer!


MATTHEWS: Do you...


SANDERS: Well, I mean, you know, I...

MATTHEWS: she...

SANDERS: Yes. I mean, of course I will participate. And I hope that
we will have as many debates as possible.

Look, Chris, this country faces enormous problems. And anyone who
knows my politics knows that I`m issue-oriented. I don`t like personal
attacks. I focus on issues like why it is that the middle class for 40
years has been disappearing, why 99 percent of all new income is going to
the top 1 percent, why we`re not addressing the planetary crisis of climate
change, why we are no doing something about this disastrous Citizens United
Supreme Court decision.

So, to my mind, there`s a lot to be debated and I look forward to
having respectful, intelligent debates with Hillary Clinton and any other
candidate who is out there.

MATTHEWS: What can be done in America about exponential wealth? I
don`t mean people, the CEO who makes too much money. That`s a problem in
itself. But when you see people making in the billions -- I have never
seen these numbers. You have never saw them, billions. There are some
people -- $20 billion, $30 billion as -- you hear about numbers like
Buffett`s money or other people`s money. I have never heard of money like
this in the world.

SANDERS: Chris, you have never heard...

MATTHEWS: How do you deal with that? It`s not just 100 times. It`s
1,000, 10,000 times what other people have.


SANDERS: Chris, You have never heard of this because it`s never
happened before. Listen to this.

According to "Forbes" magazine, in the last two years, the wealthiest
14 people in this country have seen their wealth increase by $157 billion.
That`s more wealth than the bottom 130 million people have in their
entirety. It is obscene. It is immoral. It`s grotesque.

How do you deal with it? You know what? You have real tax reforms
that says to the billionaires, that says to the largest corporations in
America, guess what? You are part of the United States of America. You
can`t avoid your taxes anymore. You are going to have to start paying your
fair share.

You do that by raising the minimum wage and rebuilding the middle
class, by a massive jobs program rebuilding our infrastructure.

MATTHEWS: Senator Bernie Sanders, we will have you on again and
again. Good luck in the race. We`re looking forward to those debates,
especially the ones headed toward New Hampshire. It`s got a lot of
nostalgia for me.

Up next: President Obama says he`s found his mission, not just for
the rest of his presidency, but for the rest of his life. It is about race
and poverty and bringing opportunity to those who don`t have it.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.



measure, the life chances of the average young man of color is worse than
his peers. Those opportunity gaps begin early, often at birth. And they
compound over time, becoming harder and harder to bridge, making too many
young men and women feel like, no matter how hard they try, they may never
achieve their dreams.

And this will remain a mission for me and for Michelle, not just for
the rest of my presidency, but for the rest of my life.



MATTHEWS: That`s a powerful statement. Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was President Obama in New York speaking to the frustrations, the
racial tensions, the protests and at times the riots that are now a focal
point of his second presidential term.

President Obama has addressed the subject multiple times and in stark
personal terms since the Baltimore tragedy. For a president that has at
times avoided racial politics, he seems to have found his voice. In those
remarks in New York, the president announced a new venture called My
Brother`s Keeper Alliance. And this is news, actually big news.

The front page of "The New York Times" reports that, staked by more
than $80 million in commitments from corporations and other donors, the new
group will in effect provide the nuclear for Mr. Obama`s post-presidency.

Today, President Obama`s new attorney general, Loretta Lynch, visited
Baltimore in the wake of last week`s rioting, where she met with local
officials, police and members of Freddie Gray`s family, including his

Here`s what Attorney General Lynch told the Baltimore police force.


LORETTA LYNCH, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: You have picked a noble
profession. You have picked a hard profession, but you have picked one of
the best professions out there today, because you have picked the one that
lets you go out every day and say I`m going to help somebody.

And despite how some of people may want to choose to characterize you,
hold on to that as you go out on patrol every day. We don`t always choose
moments. Sometimes, they choose us, and how we live with that and how we
go through with that determines what kind of officers we all are.


MATTHEWS: Wes Moore is a retired Army captain, community leader,
author and Baltimore native. His newest book is called "The Work."

Thank you very much for joining us, Wes Moore. Thank you, sir.

CAPT. WES MOORE (RET.), U.S. ARMY: My pleasure.

MATTHEWS: Sir, what do you think the president is up to here? What`s
his plan for the rest of his life, apparently?

MOORE: Well, I mean, this is an incredibly exciting news and
development to share, because I think the president, you know, knows. The
president has seen this from so many different dynamics, first as an
African-American growing up in various communities around the country,
going through the experience that he detailed in his own books, then
becoming a community organizer in Chicago, eventually state senator, now
president of the United States.

He`s seen this evolution from so many different dynamics and so many
different standpoints. And his takeaway is that in order to form a more
perfect union, we have to make sure that this conversation is more

And, unfortunately, not just statistically, but also anecdotally,
we`re seeing certain percentages of the population and specifically in this
case young men of color, young African-American men, who are not part of
that conversation.

So to see him devoting so much time and energy not just in his time in
office, but even, as he`s saying, his time out of office, is incredibly

MATTHEWS: What do you think has stopped him from having a kind of a
Marshall Plan, a major effort for young African-American men, to be
particular, as president? He`s got a year-and-a-half left, but why for all
these years hasn`t he said, you know what? I look at our cities. We all
drive through them. We know the situation they`re in.

You can take a neighborhood or two in every city and say, this area is
in big trouble and it`s getting worse. Why hasn`t he done that before?

MOORE: Well, I don`t want to -- don`t want to separate some of the
other policies that he`s made and say how the impact that this actually has

MATTHEWS: But why hasn`t he focused on this problem before?

MOORE: Well, no, but that`s what I`m saying. I think if you look at
many of the policies, even things from Obamacare to also other tax policies
put into place, there actually are things that actually have had direct
impacts particularly on communities of color.

You know, I think the president walks an incredibly fine line, Chris.
The president is our first African-American president, where he wants to be
very clear that he is not the black president, but he`s the president who
happens to be black. I think we understand that, and, you know, we
appreciate that -- the challenge that he has.

But, at the same time, to see this level of focus and specific level
of focus on this demographic right now is more than we have received from
presidents of the past. So, for that, I think we`re thankful.

MATTHEWS: Well, let me try this from another way, from a partisan

The Democratic Party has owned the big cities of this country,
especially the African-American areas, for as long as I remember. As soon
as there`s an African-American majority electorally, you get a black
congressman or woman in every city, from New York all the way down to
Philadelphia, through Baltimore, all the way down to Atlanta, to Florida
and then all the way out to the West of the West Coast cities and the
Midwest cities.

So they have all been represented, these African-American areas. What
good has it done them in terms of jobs, in terms of economic development,
in terms of training and the new industry jobs that will be available if
you are trained? Who has been leading that effort in that -- in those
communities on behalf of the Democratic Party? Give me a name of somebody
who has done that.

MOORE: Well, I think that`s been part of the frustration, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Give me a name.

MOORE: I think -- no, no, that`s been part of the frustration.

MATTHEWS: Give me a name.

MOORE: A name of who has been leading the effort?

MATTHEWS: Who has been leading -- is there such an effort as I have
just described it...

MOORE: No, but...

MATTHEWS: ... to bring economic hope to those communities represented
by Democratic members of Congress?

MOORE: No, that`s -- the point is that I`m agreeing with you. There
hasn`t been a single name that you can point towards that is going to
address these single issues, in the same way I don`t think there`s a single
issue that were going to be addressed.

All these issues are intertwined. All these issues are connected,
where you cannot talk about...


MOORE: You know, you cannot talk about economic advancement without
also talking education. You cannot talk about education without also
talking about health. You cannot talk about health without talking about

All these things are interconnected, and I think part of the
frustration that we have in so many communities, communities like mine in
Baltimore, is we have a situation where we`re continually asking the same
people to be patient, where we can say we can build up -- you know, we can
build up a waterfront and we can do that in five to 10 years, but we have
certainly communities in Baltimore that have looked the same since 1968.

And then, at some point, the same people you`re asking to be patient
are no longer going to be patient anymore. So, to answer the question,
there is no single name that I can give. There`s no single position or
policy that we have in place that`s doing this. But the thing that I know
is this, is that we have a great collection of people who are actually on
the ground who understand that -- that certain power, certain empowerment
does not come with a certain political title or does not come with a
certain business card, that everybody has to be involved.


MATTHEWS: It should.

The people elected to represent us in our government should be the
ones who get things done. Anyway, I have a simple question to narrow it
all down. You`re 18 years old, you just graduated from high school, you
got a clean record, you got a C average, you`re a regular boy, a regular
kid. What`s the world going to offer you as opportunity? Let`s answer
that question.

Anyway, thank you, Wes Moore, for coming on. The book is "The Other
Wes Moore."

MOORE: Good question.

MATTHEWS: Thanks for coming on.

Up next, Hillary Clinton, the former secretary of state, says she`s
ready to go back to Capitol Hill to testify about Benghazi and her e-mail
in open testimony, no hiding from the cameras. She`s going right in their
face. She`s facing the lions.

Plus, Mike Huckabee gets into the Republican race. Can he duplicate
the early success when he won all those primaries, including Iowa, back in

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


Here`s what`s happening.

The Obama administration has approved ferry service between the U.S.
and Cuba. If approved by Cuba, it would create a new avenue for trade and
travel between the two countries.

Boxer Manny Pacquiao may face sanctions for failing to disclose a
shoulder injury before Saturday`s match against Floyd Mayweather. Pacquiao
will have surgery this week to repair a torn rotator cuff.

And a falling tree injured two children at a Chelsea, Massachusetts,
playground. One of them is being treated for a fractured skull -- back to


have four dead Americans. Was it because of a protest or was it because of
guys out for a walk one night who decided they would go kill some
Americans? What difference at this point does it make? It is our job to
figure out what happened and do everything we can to prevent it from ever
happening again, Senator.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was of course former Secretary of State and current presidential
candidate Hillary Clinton testifying before a Senate committee about the
2012 attack on the U.S. compound in Libya where four Americans were killed.

Secretary Clinton says she will testify now before the House Select
Committee some time in May. She will also answer questions about her use
of personal e-mail while she was at the State Department.

Now newly minted Republican presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, the
former CEO of Hewlett-Packard, has pounced on Hillary Clinton and Benghazi.
Here she goes.


about Benghazi, in fact, just the opposite. She peddled a fiction about it
for months. She hasn`t been transparent about her server and her e-mails.


MATTHEWS: Well, that salvo from Fiorina launches a presidential race
with two strong women opponents.

Joining me right now is our roundtable, Cokie Roberts, NPR
contributor, of course, author of "Capital Dames," the story of the women
of Washington during the Civil War, and also tonight AP White House
reporter Nedra Pickler, and NBC political reporter Perry Bacon.

Cokie, it`s so great to have you on.


MATTHEWS: Can you tell me, do you think Fiorina, Carly Fiorina, has
this notion in her head that she can get away with even scurrilous attacks
on Secretary Clinton because she is a female? Do you think there`s
something going on there or not? Open question.

ROBERTS: I think she can -- she thinks that she can say just because
she`s a woman is not a reason to vote for her; I say that as a woman.

And she`s got this whole riff she does about hormones and hormones in
the Oval Office and all of that. So...



ROBERTS: ... I think that -- yes, she says -- she says, you know,
that if -- that women -- people women shouldn`t be president because of
their hormones. She says, as if men`s hormones never got in the way in the
Oval Office, wink, wink, nod, nod.

MATTHEWS: Oh, my God, wink, wink.


ROBERTS: And so she is -- she is clearly going to a place that I
think men would not go to.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask. Let me go -- Nedra, what do you think of that
success rate there?

I mean, I do think she has kind of a strong attack theme here. And it
seems personal, perhaps more than some of the others, although the others
are pretty darn personal.

NEDRA PICKLER, THE ASSOCIATED PRESS: You know, they are all trying to
land blows on her. But she`s doing it in a way where she says, hey, she`s
not going to be the only woman in this race who would make the first woman

That`s kind of the underlying argument. And also she is,
interestingly, not attacking her fellow GOP candidates. She`s trying to
show the field that she can do a service here, right, by taking on Clinton
and maybe even angling for a different spot on the ticket.



MATTHEWS: Perry, is this -- is this an attempt to show that I can win
the general, so I should win the primaries?


I think it`s an attempt to be vice president, as Nedra said. I don`t
think Carly Fiorina imagines she is going to be in the Oval Office as the
president. But I think she`s the only female candidate that is going to be
-- and I think there is potential for her to be the vice president if she
runs a really strong campaign during the primary.

I think that`s where to opening is. She will be the only woman on
stage in all these Republican debates talking about Hillary Clinton. So,
she has a great opportunity to raise her profile, make different points,
and just be a bigger figure in the Republican Party than she is right now.

COKIE ROBERTS, AUTHOR, "CAPITAL DAMES": I think everybody who gets
into these races thinks that they are going to be in the oval office. They
all suspend disbelief, for at least a period of time see they will seems
right behind the desk with the rug of the seal of the presidency on the
floor in front of them.

NEDRA PICKLER, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Anything can happen. She is barely
registering in the polls --


CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC HOST: I`m sorry, go ahead.

PICKLER: She`s barely registering in the polls. But anything could

MATTHEWS: Well, no, not anything. Not anything.


MATTHEWS: Not anything. Let me --


BACON: No --


MATTHEWS: I`ll bet. Never mind. I don`t want to say she can`t win
because I might be wrong, of course.

Let me ask you, the only guy in the group here tonight, Perry.
According to this new poll by the Shriver Report -- I never heard of
Shriver Report -- 64 percent of men are comfortable with having a female
president of the United States.

I just wonder what kind of question that is. I mean, are they
supposed to say I`m not comfortable with that? I mean --


MATTHEWS: This is a setup question, Perry. What are you supposed to
say, no, I`m a man of yesterday, I don`t like women and I don`t want them
in the White House? Who is going to say that?

Go ahead. Your thoughts?

BACON: I agree with Cokie. It`s like one of the questions, like, do
you want a black president, or a Hispanic president, female president?
You`re not going to get -- there are may be some people in the electorate
aren`t for that but they won`t say that in a poll. But I think we will get
a good sense of how the electorate and for that matter the media views
female candidates. We`ll have Carly Fiorina on the Republican side and
Hillary Clinton.

Hopefully, we`ll have less articles about their clothing and
appearance than in 2008. That`s what I`m hoping for myself.

ROBERTS: You know, in 2008, the "Los Angeles Times" tried to do a
poll to get at that question without saying would you vote for a woman
president or is the country ready for a woman president because everybody
is going to say yes. And they basically asked something like, you know, do
you think your neighbor would vote for a woman or an African-American?

MATTHEWS: I know that one.

ROBERTS: And given that way, 75 percent said yes to an African-
American and only two-thirds said yes to a woman. So there was a gap in --
even in the poll.

PICKLER: Well, apparently from this poll, a third of the respondents
didn`t say they were comfortable with a woman president. I find that
pretty horrifying in the headline from that.

MATTHEWS: Isn`t it amazing that 36 percent said point blank said no

All right. Last question, everybody. You know, my mom -- I didn`t
find this out until -- I grew up in a Republican family I`ve said before
and I have to tell you -- my mom didn`t tell anybody she voted for Jack
Kennedy until a couple years before she died. She told my brother Jim and
he just told me. He kept it secret all this year.

ROBERTS: Didn`t want you to have the satisfaction.

MATTHEWS: You don`t know. Anyway.


MATTHEWS: Cokie, let me ask you, my friend. Is it possible that
there will be a lot of women saying their husband is making a ton of money,
they live in the suburbs, they have always voted Republican, come Election
Day, Hillary Clinton is a credible candidate for president, she may be a
bit to the left of some of these Republican women, they`re going to sneak
out and vote for her?

ROBERTS: Sure. In fact, right now in the polls --

MATTHEWS: Without telling hubby.

ROBERTS: Absolutely. But the reason she`s doing well now is because
she is getting white women, and that`s unusual for a Democratic candidate,
so you have to figure that that`s already going on.


PICKLER: Yes, I mean, that`s what the Clinton campaign is banking on,
right, that this is going to be the year of the woman, and they`ll be able
to pull over some of these voters who otherwise may not vote for a
Democratic candidate.

MATTHEWS: There`s going to be a lot --

ROBERTS: But, you know, a lot of Republican women vote Democratic


ROBERTS: I mean, there`s a lot of cancelling out each other`s votes.


BACON: Yes, go ahead.

MATTHEWS: My question is how much wasted gas is there going to be on
Election Day when the husband and wife go to vote? A lot of wasted gas
there, right?


ROBERTS: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: When they vote opposite directions.

Anyway, the roundtable is staying with us.

And up next, Mike Huckabee gets in the race. Will his brand of
evangelism, economic pluralism and hatred of the Clintons sell? Why would
an evangelist go with hating the Clintons?

Anyway, HARDBALL coming back in a minute.


MATTHEWS: Hillary Clinton is still looking strong against the top
tier Republican candidates for 2016. Let`s check the requested HARDBALL

According to our new NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll, Clinton leads
Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky by three points nationally, Clinton 47, Paul

Secretary Clinton leads Jeb Bush by six points, 49-43. Isn`t that
interesting? Leads him by more.

Against Senator Marco Rubio, Clinton`s lead is also six, 49-43.

Finally, Clinton leads Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker by 10, 50-40.
He`s got some name ID to pick up though.

We`ll be right back.



because I know there`s a difference between making a speech and making
government accountable to the people who have to pay for it.

I`ve walked away from my own income to do this, so I`m not asking you
for some sacrifice I`m not willing to make. I don`t have a global
foundation or a taxpayer payer funded paycheck to live off of it. I don`t
come from a family dynasty but a working family. I grew up blue collar,
not blue blood.


MATTHEWS: That`s Mike Huckabee today in Hope, Arkansas, announcing
his bid to run for president.

When he ran back in 2008, he finished first in Iowa, thanks to a
strong support among evangelicals. But this year, the evangelical vote to
be split among Ted Cruz, Bobby Jindal, Rick Santorum and Rick Perry. The
new NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll shows Huckabee in the back of the pack
with only 5 percent of the vote. His message, by the way, makes his
hawkishness on national security and strong socially conservative views
with economic populism. He also has delivered some particularly harsh
attacks on President Obama and, of course, the Clintons, the fellow

How his message sell in 2016?

We`re back with Cokie, Perry and Nedra.

Let me go back to Cokie on this one.

Evangelicals, I just don`t think this is going to work for him this
time. Your thoughts? I think it`s over.

ROBERTS: You`re quite right. He`s got a huge amount of competition,
including Ted Cruz who is appealing to the evangelical vote, and, you know,
in Iowa it is huge, but if they all split it up, then we`re on to New
Hampshire and Jeb Bush.

MATTHEWS: The only person missing in this crowd is Marjo right now,
Nedra? Remember him?

PICKLER: I don`t remember him.

MATTHEWS: I mean, there seems to be a lot of evangelical talking
going on in that Republican Party. It`s almost like you`ve got to very
right wing on marriage equality, you`ve got to be right wing on abortion
rights. You`ve got to be right wing on hawkishness. I mean, there`s a lot
of rules now to put all these people in that same sort of rightward column
that gets pretty crowded over there.

PICKER: Well, I will say that Mike Huckabee seems very comfortable in
that column over there. And I will predict his attention will be probably
disproportionate to his poll numbers because he is such a good sound bite.
He has a way with words. He`s also a serious policy person, but he`s a
person who knows how to get attention and say something that can grab the

MATTHEWS: Well, here he is doing that, backing hawkish positions on
national security, he opposes nuclear talks with Iran, opposes the talks,
supports military action against ISIS. He also has been critical of
President Obama`s policy on Israel.

Here he was today in Arkansas. Let`s watch him.


HUCKABEE: When I hear our current president say he wants Christians
to get off their high horse so we can make nice with radical jihadists, I
wonder -- I wonder if he can watch a western from the `50s and be able to
figure out who the good guys and the bad guys really are.


As president, I promise you we will no longer merely try to contain
jihadism. We will conquer it.


And let there be no doubt -- Israel will know, as will the whole
world, that we are their trusted friends, and the ayatollahs of Iran will
know that hell will freeze over before they get a nuclear weapon.


MATTHEWS: Perry Bacon, I think he touched all the erogenous zones
with that baby.

BACON: He did. I mean, I think Huckabee is significant in this race,
not because he`s likely to win, but because he really did well in Iowa and
throughout the South in 2008. And that means he`s a danger to someone like
Scott Walker, who really wants to win the Iowa caucus. Huckabee has a base
support there.

So, if you`re looking at the race in terms of Walker, Rubio and Bush
are probably the leading candidates. If you`re Walker and you`re Rubio and
you think maybe you could win Iowa, Huckabee could cut into your vote.
He`d get a strong base there and that`s where he plays a big role in this
race. He has the same problem for him winning, as you intimated, that he
has a very strong base of evangelicals and very little base outside of
that, and there`s no evidence that`s going to change in 2016. In fact, I
would argue he`s in an even worse position in 2008 to win a broader base of
a vote. But he will be a player in this race.

MATTHEWS: Cokie, what happens if they hop up --


MATTHEWS: What happens, Cokie, if they hop up the hard right, and
everybody gets excited about, we`re all going to go to war on Israel side,
we`re going to take out all the Arabs, we`re going to exterminate the
Islamists, we`re going blah, blah, blah, and then they have to run a
general election and they have to take it all back?

ROBERTS: It doesn`t -- I mean, that`s what happened to them in 2012.
Mitt Romney`s problem wasn`t what everybody in the debates said about him.
It`s what he said. And, you know, when talking about the self-deportation
and all the rest of it. It`s -- you know, it`s what they themselves say in
the lead up to the elections.

You know, that`s also the same problems that Hillary Clinton could
have, the debates are now going to exist and if she`s talking to Bernie
Sanders and others, she could find herself saying things that don`t work so
well for her in the general, too.


Nedra, does it balance that way? Do you think the Democrats will go
as far left as Republicans are going right? Or have to go right with this
new crowd of people crowding on the right on the Republican side?

PICKLER: I just think these are two completely different dynamics on
these two sides. I mean, Secretary Clinton does not have to fight off
strong challengers the way that every Republican is going to have to be in
those debates.

MATTHEWS: Does she know that? Does she know that and believe that in
her soul, that she doesn`t have to tack left, she doesn`t have to worry
about that. She got 81 support --She got 81 percent support yesterday in
the party. Does she know it, though?

ROBERTS: It will depend on how it goes, you know? If she takes a hit
in Iowa, you can see that things would -- that would make a big difference.
In the NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll, her negatives are up, exactly tied
with her positives. I mean, she`s got some things to worry about here and
how she responds to it is going to depend on what comes at her next.

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s finish up with Huckabee here and I want to ask
you all -- is Huckabee a factor? Could he possibly be the Republican




ROBERTS: No. In fact, when he goes South, even though he did well
there the last time around, that`s where Lindsey Graham is coming into the
picture and why he`s getting into the race.

BACON: I would say no, he`s not -- Carly Fiorina definitely can`t
win, Ben Carson cannot win, Huckabee has a very narrow window, but he`s not
likely -- I don`t want to say never with him. He`s at least won elective
office before, but he`s a much more serious candidate than Ben Carson is.

MATTHEWS: Thank you so much, Cokie Roberts. The name of your book is
"Capital Dames". I was going to say dames, but it`s dames.

Thank you, Nedra Pickler. Great panelist.

And thank you, Perry Bacon.

When we return, let me finish with the question of weapons. You know,
choosing your weapons -- fascinating stuff in politics.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with a question of weapons, choosing
weapons. Polls show the Republicans believe that national security and
terrorism constitute the top issues facing our country. This what
Republican primary voters cite as their top priority for 2016. Who is
going to protect this country?

The candidates -- the Republican candidates seem to be on the same
page. It`s hard to see them nominated a candidate who is not a hawk
through and through, someone ready to lead the fight against our terrorist
enemies. The only dove is Rand Paul, which makes him an interesting long

On the Democratic side, Hillary Clinton opened her national campaign
focusing on domestic policy. Again, that conforms to what Democratic
voters have on their agenda. For them, national security and terrorism are
way down on the list, down past climate change -- a concern, by the way,
that fails to even score on the Republican to-do list.

So, what kind of debate are we going to have in 2016? Is it going to
be like the conversations on so many opinion shows right now, where people
talk about their priorities but ignore those of the other side? Are we
going to see more of this ships passing in the night in `16, with each side
scoring its points and pretend the other nominee isn`t there, that the
party`s concerns aren`t even there?

Well, here`s what we`re going to do here on HARDBALL -- choose stuff
from both sides of the political menu. You know, column A and column B,
security and economics, foreign and domestic issues. Why? Because every
president of the United States has to deal with both.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


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