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The Ed Show for Monday, May 11th, 2015

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Date: May 11, 2015
Guest: Donte Lambert, Shakel Forman, Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, Jamal
Bryant, Paul Henderson, Terence Moore, Rob Simmelkjaer, Sage Rosenfels

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Americans welcome to the Ed
Show live from Washington D.C.

I`m Michael Eric Dyson in for Ed Schultz.

Let`s get to work.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight, under fire.

NANCY GORDEUK, PRINCIPAL, TNT ACADEMY: Give me your (inaudible), look
who`s leaving all the black people.

I didn`t say that "N" word.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Plus, backing his brother on Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you have authorized the invasion?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Later, morning in Mississippi.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Officers Benjamin Deen and Liquori Tate were shot in
cold blood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They made the ultimate sacrifice to protect people of
this city.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the first lady gets personnel.

name calling, the doubting, all of it was just a noise, it did not define
me, it didn`t change who I was.


DYSON: The principal of alternative schooling, Georgia is facing criticism
after she made a racially charged remark at the schools graduation
ceremony. TNT Academy Principal Nancy Gordeuk became upset after some
people begun leaving early, this is what played on the Friday.


GORDEUK: You people are being so rude to listen to this speech. It was my
fault that we missed it in the program.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She won`t know.

GORDEUK: Look who`s leaving all the black people.


DYSON: The valedictorian speech was not put in the program so people
started talking and leaving, Gordeuk has caused outraged with her comments.
She told NBC news her side of the story earlier today.


GORDEUK: My side is I`m not a racist, I did not know black people was a
racist term, I didn`t say that "N" word or anything like that because
that`s not in my vocabulary. What happened was the graduation, the
valedictorian was introduced to give his speech and a man who just happened
to be black came up in front of us, in front the podium and I was going
back and forth doing selfies with the kids and interrupting the
valedictorian, therefore disrespect to that student.

And then when I called security in, I asked the man to please sit down, he
did not, he just continued. I called security and when they came in the
audience booed and of course it`s going to be young kids because they were
getting kicked out of the sky and being disrespectful. And I said you`re
being rude and disrespectful to this young man and when looked left side,
the light as, you know, lights in the auditorium you look left, all I saw
were black people getting up and leaving.

And I said, "Oh look who`s leaving, all the black people." So I made a
statement, it wasn`t a racist remark, anybody that knows to be knows my
heart is with these kids, I`ve been teaching 30 something years.


DYSON: Gordeuk also responded to reaction over her comments.


GORDEUK: People always think the worst, you know, that, "Oh you said the
word black", you know, was I supposed to say African-Americans, were they
were all born in Africa, no they`re Americans. And, they live here and
live -- just I`m not a racist people that know me, I worked to, you know,
with disadvantage kids like this, they couldn`t get through school we help
them get a high school diploma and we`ve been doing it for it 15 years and
our hearts in it, we`re not against anyone and I never disrespect anyone.


DYSON: Gordeuk has apologize to her students and their families, she wrote
an apology letter saying, "Frustrated with the prospect of ruining the
once-in-a-lifetime ceremony the graduates have worked so hard for, my
emotions got the best of me and that is why I blurted out, you people are
being so rude to not listen to this speech. I deeply apologize for my
actions made in the emotional state of trying to let this last student
finish his speech". Gordeuk told NBC news she might take a leave of
absence following the incident.

Get your cellphones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question, do you believe Nancy Gordeuk`s excuse for her comments? Go to to cast your vote, I`ll bring you the result later on to
the show.

For more let me bring in Sarah Dallof of MSNBC. Sarah how is the community
reacting to this incident that happened that the graduation?

SARAH DALLOF, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well good evening Dr. Dyson, community
reaction really poured in fast and furious once those comments -- recording
of those comments went viral and she`s facing a lot of criticism both here
in Stone Mountain, Georgia where the school is headquartered to all across
the country. Gordeuk tells us she in fact with this hundreds of angry e-
mails and so far these apologies she offered for a lot of people, they
don`t seem to be hitting the mark.

Those people upset not only about that racially-charged remark that she
said but also about her behaviors throughout the entire ceremony. People
tell us that she was acting ugly from the very beginning making a,
individual personal comments about graduates if they walk across the stage
to the crowd often times not very flattering, calling that young man to
takes for to takes photo and video with his iPad, a coward among other
things. The end of one of the graduates put it to (inaudible) this event
is memorable for all the wrong reasons.

DYSON: Absolutely, Ms. Dallof, is it the case that...


... history of racially insensitive remarks made?

DALUFF: The parents that I spoke to, one of the graduates didn`t comment
on any racial paths. The people I spoke to, there students have had
positive remarks about the school in general in their experience there.
You got to keep in mind that this is an alternate type school. This isn`t
your traditional 7:00 A.M. to 2:00 P.M. where students come for set periods
and set classes doing the same thing everyday. In fact a lot of these
students are an independent study type courses that they may not have the
kind of contact with administrators than students in a traditional public
school might have.

DYSON: Sure, any idea what will happen to Gordeuk now?

DALUFF: That is also a tricky situation once again because this is not a
typical public school. We did talk to her this morning she said she is
considering a leave of absence. She is considering appointing as interm
principal, perhaps taking a vacation. She does vow that her work her at
TNT Academy will go on however she did found the school, she has a 30 plus
year teaching history, she has had TNT Academy for about 15 years now.

DYSON: All right Sarah Dallof thanks so much for your time tonight.

For more let me bring in Donte Lambert, a TNT Academy graduate who`s at
Friday`s ceremony and Shakel Forman Donte`s mother who was also at the
ceremony. Donte what was your initial reaction when you heard Principal
Gordeuk make these remarks that seem to incense the crowd.

DONTE LAMBERT, TNT ACADEMY STUDENT: Well at first I was shocked, I was
really shocked I never heard somebody be so bold in a front of a crowd of
people like that. I mean, I personally knew Ms. Nancy be, you know, say
some remarks that`s a little off putting like very much from (ph) early
about the babies but I never thought she would say something like that a
crowd of people. I never thought it was, you know.

DYSON: When you hear a respond that look should I have call them African-
American or were they born in Africa and alike, does that indicate some
kind if insensitivity on her part because it wasn`t the fact that she
called them black, it`s the fact that she pointed them out as the only
people leaving, she doesn`t seem to get it quite. Is this something that
you think is typical of what she might think in when regard to race, have
you seen other indications that she was that insensitive.

LAMBERT: I`m sorry I can`t really understand the question but...

DYSON: I`m just saying that -- has she indicated before that she was
insensitive to issues of race?

LAMBERT: Not race particularly but she has said like things -- she would
make a remark to me personally so -- not somewhere racist but she will make
remarks that wouldn`t shocked me. So.

DYSON: Right, Ms Forman what was the mood in the crowd after she made her

SHAKEL FORMAN, DONTE`S LAMBERT MOTHER: Well 30 minutes until the ceremony
she made a comment about taping the babies mouth shuts or remove it from
the crowd. So that was the very first thing that, you know, kind of
agitated the crowd. That was one of the reasons why I, you know, decided
to video tape the ceremony. The crowd was very agitated. It was just a
weird environment. We were just really trying to sit through it, get it
done, you know, see the kids walk across and, you know, be done with it.

DYSON: Right, so Ms. Forman, Principal Gordeuk said she didn`t mean her
comments to be racist do you buy her story?

FORMAN: Not one bit, and the reason I feel like that is because I have had
conversations with Nancy before she`s a very angry, bitter woman. She`s
never smiling, never happy to see anybody, very negative, you know,
demeanor period. She`s make comments to me and Donte about, you know, he`s
working and why is he paying his tuition late and things of that nature,
you know, she always digging someone`s business.

DYSON: All right.

FORMAN: So her apology does not -- it doesn`t sit well me, it doesn`t seem
genuine. You know, she`s trying to cover up the fact that, if she would
have just be quiet or let the guy start his speech, none of this would have
never happened.

DYSON: Sure. So Donte, she apologized all the students, do you accept her

LAMBERT: No, not at all. I`ve actually been nice to Ms. Nancy to like
this whole situation.

The whole time I was standing -- I attend to her school I`ve been having
problems with her nonstop. And no one else but Ms. Nancy, she would make
remarks to me about everything and I would just always, you know, tell my
mom, you know, and Mrs. Nancy said this and that and I...

DYSON: What kind of things would she say to you?

LAMBERT: Say, if I will pay tuition, I maybe two or three days late
because of when I to get paid or if I has something to pay she will come in
and be like, oh you have a really nice shoes, I don`t see what`s the
problem with you paying. She said, oh your working hard, you know that`s
what she telling, why aren`t you paying us on time?

It was like that I will pay late all the time, it would be like once or
thrice or maybe a day or two late and she would just make it a big deal.

She would talk to me if like bad in front of people and oh you`re paying
this time. Oh you`re paying on time today and, you know, you come to pick
that work are you going to do it right? And...

DYSON: In light of those demeaning remarks, Ms. Forman, what do you think
should happen to Principal Gordeuk?

FORMAN: Well, I got mixed thoughts about that. I feel like when you`re in
a teaching field you`re supposed to be more positive, you know, we`re
bright, happier. She`s -- like I said, I don`t think she needs to run the
school per say. I would never suggest going to her school. And we really
decided to put Donte into that that school at the last minute and it wasn`t
because he was a troubled kid and couldn`t get to a regular high school, it
was the point of -- we got heard that things about her school from Shilo
(ph), so that`s the reason why we put him in there.


FORMAN: And you know, someone made a comment about she`s taking the kids
in and his kids are struggling, it`s not just that. You know, we paid
money just like every other student in her school. We pay her over $3,000
this year in tuition and it`s not that she`s just really helping them to

Well, we`re paying, you know, it`s a private academy. That`s what they are
there to do. It`s not -- she doesn`t spend all time with the kids there.
Donte didn`t even -- never want to interact with her at all. He goes in
there and goes straight to the other administrators because she`s so

DYSON: Right.

FORMAN: I don`t think she needs to be teaching and/or in the education
field at all.

DYSON: OK. So she should be removed.

So Donte, is the school what you going to remember of all the sights and
sounds from your graduation, is this the very incident that will stand out
to you?

LAMBERT: Oh, most definitely because I have -- I made sure I put on my
family to come down here and see me. And, for them to witness this action
is embarrassing to me and my decision to where I attend to school.

I was very embarrassed based on that remarks that she made, my family was
very upset and I worked really hard to get them down here and, you know, to
make them proud and this is what they`re presented with.

DYSON: Right. Well, we hope certainly that your college will be, you
know, less colorful and more productive for you than your high school.

Donte Lambert and Shekal Forman, thank you so much for your time tonight.

LAMBERT: No problem. Thank you.

FORMAN: Thank you.

DYSON: Remember to answer tonight`s question at We`ll have the results later in the

Coming up, meet the new Bush, same as the old Bush. Jeb takes a page from
this brother`s playbook on foreign policy.

And later, we`ll have the latest details out of Mississippi where four
suspects face charges in the death of two police officers. Stay tuned.


DYSON: We`re following some breaking news from Florida. George Zimmerman
was involved in a shooting incident earlier today. Just a short time a
short time ago Lake Mary, Florida Police held a news conference.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: At this time, it appears that George Zimmerman was
not the shooter, no shots we`re fired from George Zimmerman.


DYSON: Zimmerman was acquitted on the shooting death of Trevon Martin July
of 2013.


DYSON: Welcome back to the Ed Show.

A former CIA deputy director says ISIS is ready and able to launch a 9/11
like attack. Michael Morell told USA today, if we don`t get ISIS under
control, we`re going to see that kind of attack.

Morell was with George W. Bush in 2001 when he was told a plane had crashed
crushed into the World Trade Center. He was also in the White House when
President Obama got news Navy SEAL Team Six had killed Osama bin Laden.
Morell gave a staunch warning.


mistake to have the perception that al-Qaeda died along with Bin ...


DYSON: Meanwhile, George W. Bush`s kid brother says, he would have
authorized the 2003 Iraq War also. Jeb Bush told Fox News the intelligence
provided to his brother`s administration left him with no choice but to

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS: Knowing what we know now, would you have authorized
the invasion?

BUSH: I would have, and so would have Hillary Clinton, just to remind
everybody and so with of almost everybody that was confronted with the
intelligence they got.


KELLY: You don`t think it was a mistake?

BUSH: In retrospect, the intelligence that everybody saw that the world
saw not just the United States, was faulty. And in retrospect once we
invaded and took out Saddam Hussein, we didn`t focus on security first and
the Iraqis in this incredible insecure environment, turn on the United
States military because there was no security for themselves and their


DYSON: Joining me now is Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, retired United States
Army Colonel, Former Chief of Staff the Secretary of State Colin Powell and
adjunct professor of the College of William and Mary.

Sir, is Jeb Bush trying to box in Hillary Clinton with this questions
slightly going -- doing an in and around there?

COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON, RETIRED U.S. ARMY: I think he was trying to get
out of -- his answer himself. You know, I`ve flirted with the idea of
returning to my party at least for this presidential election and perhaps
even voting for Jeb because I thought he was a pretty rational person, a
real politicker (ph) if you will. But, this kind of comment coming from
him without any more context to -- sort of like John McCain`s moment when
he picked Sarah Palin to be his Vice President or Mitt Romney`s moment when
he more or less disqualified half of the American people for any merit.
It`s not a good moment.

DYSON: Well, so you`re reaction Jeb Bush saying he would have authorized
the 2003 Iraq War also, what do you make of that? Is he is -- besides what
you just said, is it also trying to retroactively justify what his brother
did as well?

WILKERSON: It is, there is no question about that and I understand
familiar feelings, but it`s also a statement of gross era in my regard
because the intelligence was fixed. And everyone should know that the
intelligence was fixed by now.

Yes, it was a failure of the CIA and a number of other Intelligence
entities but it was also a failure of the political people who manipulated
that intelligence failure to their own benefit. And it destroyed the
balance of power in the Gulf and produced what we have today, the chaos
that we have today, al-Qaeda in Iraq, never there until we invaded, ISIS,
never there until we invaded.

The mess we have in Yemen. Everything that`s happening in the Middle East
today can be attributed to our having destroyed the balance of power that
we had carefully maintained for half a century with the invasion in 2003.
It was a disaster.

DYSON: You indicated earlier that you had been flirting with the idea of
returning to your party. Anybody on the Republican side would make you do
more than flirt, maybe have a little let`s see, maybe have a little
courtship with them?

WILKERSON: Good question. I was just in New Hampshire, looked at the 19
who had paid a thousand dollars and, obviously I think they`re going to
start the race at least with New Hampshire and maybe Iowa, maybe South
Carolina. And I looked at that list and I said, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio,
Mike Huckabee, John Bolton, Jeb Bush and so forth, and the only name that
even came close to resonating with me was Jeb Bush which is why I say, you
know, if he keeps making remarks like this, I`m going to wind up not voting
again for Republican candidate for the White House.

DYSON: Right. A Senate Intelligence Committee report said the Bush
administration presented Intelligence as fact when it was unsubstantiated.
So, why would Jeb site Intelligence as a reason for this answer?

WILKERSON: That`s my greatest concern. Anyone whose study the matter
since 2004, 2005 when more than ample information has been made available
to historians, to professors like me and others, anyone doing a research
knows that the situation was not simply an Intelligence failure, it was
also manipulation of that failure. And that bad Intelligence by political
people, by the people in the highest levels of policy-making, the
President, the Vice President, and others.

So, I don`t see how anyone can make that statement today unless they`re
trying to, you know, cover up or make things to look better for another
member of the family when they shouldn`t be made to look better.

DYSON: Sure. So, what`s your reaction to Mike Morell saying, ISIS is
ready and able to launch a 9/11-style attack?

WILKERSON: I`m a little down on Mike Morell right now, having looked at
his book and seeing the many half truths and untruths, and in fact outright
lies contained in that book. I don`t know whether it`s because he want to
sell the book and wanted to make it more dramatic or whether he really
believe some of the things he said in there or whether he made some of them

But, his comments about ISIS also were a little bit disturbing. I don`t
dismiss them as a threat but we have about a chance in America, equivalent
to lightning strike hitting us, to be killed by an ISIS terrorist or for
that matter, any other terrorist. That`s what the statistic show.

And we spent somewhere between $2 trillion and $4 trillion on this threat
to this point. So, I think, it`s about time we dealt with it in a
reasonable same way and quit this hyperventilation over it.

DYSON: All right. Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, thanks so much for joining
us here tonight.

Still to come...

WILKERSON: Thanks for having me Doctor.

DYSON: As peace returns to Baltimore, the police department`s history of
injustice comes to light. We`ll have the details ahead.

And more deadly storms hit the middle of the country this weekend. We`ll
have an update from the ground, next. Stay tuned.


DYSON: Welcome back to the Ed Show. The heartland is recovering from a
weekend of severe storms, the storm system that stretched from South Dakota
to Texas and as Far East as Ohio is being blamed for at least six deaths.

Several people are still unaccounted for after a possible tornado touched
down just east of Dallas and Van, Texas. Heavy rain calls flash floods in
Texas prompting the state`s National Guard to activate to rescue residents.

NBC Correspondent Jay Gray has more on the cleanup.


JAY GRAY, NBC CORRESPONDENT: This time the wind and water targeted North

KIMBERLY COPELAND, VAN, TEXAS RESIDENT: It was all of a sudden. I mean
there was nothing you could do even if you saw it coming. It was in a
matter of minutes.

GRAY: Just minutes before the violent storm to strike leaving behind a
path of destruction that`s changed lives here forever.

At least two people are dead, more than 40 injured and several are still
unaccounted for after a tornado whipped through the small town of Van.

Approximately, 30 percent of the City of Van have suffered damages.

GRAY: Trees and power lines snapped, homes and businesses splintered, some
completely wiped away.

ALEX LOPES, VAN, TEXAS RESIDENT: This is something you only see in movies.
You know, seeing all, you know, where these home stood and, yes, they`re
not there anymore.

In Chrome (ph), North of Dallas, driving rains in some areas more than 4
inches an hour. Too much water, too fast and neighborhoods quickly
swallowed by flash floods.

COPELAND: It`s a very eerie feeling to be completely out of control. I
mean you could just stand there and watch everything being just taken away.

GRAY: Texas National Guard choppers rushed in, pulling a half dozen
residents to higher ground including Melissa Cronce and her five-month old
baby girl.

MELISSA CRONCE: I was scared but I know she was going to be OK.

GRAY: Safe on solid ground unlike so many in the strike zone now dealing
with the mess Mother Nature left behind.


DYSON: Joining me now from Van, Texas is NBC Correspondent Jay Gray.

So, Jay, how are the communities dealing with the devastation visited upon

GRAY: Yeah. Obviously, a very rough go (ph). A lot of people turning out
to try and help out those who have been hit the hardest. And we`ve just
learned, Michael from the National Weather Service, it was an EF3 tornado
with winds of 135 to 140 mile an hour that whipped through this small town.

And what`s that do, I want to show you firsthand. First of all, this is an
awning from a player that was ripped away from that spot about 100 yards
away here. You find these shingles from rooftops all over the place here.

If you move back towards the school administration building, you see a tree
lemon, there are much larger examples of that across the area. Shattered
glass here, splintered wood everywhere and this is the kind of thing as
we`ve been talking about. Not only are they dealing with here but across
tornado alley after what`s been six days of violent storms.

It has been a tough goal going to continue to be. There is more severe
weather unfortunately in the forecast.

DYSON: Well, are there any federal government resources and local
resources that are helping those who have been affected?

GRAY: Yeah, both. We`ve seen both teams on the ground, both the federal
teams and local government, as well state of Texas teams that are here.
Just trying, first of all, to get people a place to stay for the night and
many here stay with either family or friends, a very tight knit community
but then, trying to establish what they can do to move forward, making sure
they have food, making sure they have clothing.

A lot of the people in the flooding got out with absolutely nothing, they
we`re pulled to higher ground by those helicopters and so they`re basically
starting from scratch, Michael.

DYSON: So Jay, will this region finally be getting a break from these
strong storms they`ve been really battered (ph) there.

GRAY: Look the good news is the tour (ph) -- or the possibility of
tornado, it looks like it`s going to drop significantly over the next
couple of days. There`s always a chance this time of the year, the other
problem though is this rain and we expect more heavy rain. It`s in an area
that can`t take it much more they suffered with a drought for a long time a
lot of the lakes are full or near full and now they`re getting more rain
than they need.

DYSON: All right Jay Gray thanks for joining us. Stick around the rapid
response panel is next, stay tuned.

JOSH LIPTON, CNBC: I`m Josh Lipton with your CNBC Market Wrap.

Stocks end the day lower. The Dow falls 85 points, the S&P 500 is off 10
and the NASDAQ sheds 9. A deal to tell you about in the oil industry,
Noble Energy will buy Rosetta Resources for just over $2 billion and stock.
The news set Rosetta shares up to 27 percent.

And shares of Sotheby`s finished higher today, after reporting earnings
that beat estimates, revenue was also better than expected thanks to higher

That`s it from CNBC, first in business worldwide.


DYSON: Welcome back to the Ed Show. We will have breaking news on Tom
Brady in just a bit.

But first, Hattiesburg, Mississippi is mourning the death of two officers
tonight. Four suspects have been arrested in connection with the fatal
shooting on Saturday night. Chris Mallone has the latest.


CHRIS MALONE, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Hattiesburg, Mississippi a city in
mourning. People hear paused Monday afternoon to remember Police Officers
Benjamin "BJ" Deen once Hattiesburg`s officer of the year and rookie
officer Liquori Tate, family member say he wanted to be a cop since he was
4-years-old. The two were shot and killed Saturday night.

GREGORY DAVIS, U.S. ATTORNEY: Made us with a heavy heart that we mourn the
heroes taken away from us too suddenly and far too soon.

MALLONE: Police said Deen stopped a car for speeding Saturday and called
for back up when Tate arrived both we`re shot. The suspects stole one of
the police cars as passers by discovered and tried to help the injured
officers. Police arrested 4 people who made their first appearance in
court Monday. Marvin Banks is charged with capital murder, Curtis Banks
and Joanie Calloway are charged with being accessories after the fact, and
Cornelius Clark is charged with rendering criminal assistance.

The mother of Marvin and Curtis Banks insist Curtis wasn`t involved and
says her other son was on drugs when the shooting happened. Why do you
think Marvin did this?

out of his mind, he wasn`t the same Marvin.

MALLONE: The Hattiesburg service coincided with the star of National
Police League and Washington`s fallen officers memorial people could only
shake their heads at the news two more has paid the ultimate sacrifice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s terrible, it`s just happening far too often.

MALLONE: As Hattiesburg prepares to bury two of its finest, people here
are left wondering why it came to this.


DYSON: Meanwhile, Baltimore is still healing after friction between its
community and police. A rally for peace concert on Sunday night included
the headline performers from Prince and an appearance from the state`s
attorney Marilyn Mosby. The city says it`s ready to welcome back the
birds, The Orioles were ordered to play their last game in an empty stadium
during citywide unrest.

Tonight they`re looking forward to seeing fans in the crowd for the first
time since April, but as Baltimore pushes forward, reports of negligent
police practices continue.

While examining the case of Freddie Gray who was fatally injured while
unrestrained in a police man, a Baltimore Sun`s survey found that police
transport vans routinely do not contain seat belts. The Sun also uncovered
a history for disregarding injuries among people in police custody. Since
2012 newly 2,600 detainees did not received medical care.

We reached out to the Baltimore police for comment but have not received
their responds. Joining me now is our rapid response panel, Pastor Jamal
Bryant of Empowerment Temple Ministries and Paul Henderson, a veteran
prosecutor and legal analyst, gentlemen welcome to the show.



DYSON: Pastor Brian you have emerge as the strong and articulate leader on
the national level but also paying attention specifically to Baltimore,
give us a sense of what the mood in Baltimore is right now.

BRYANT: I think that where in post-ops that you can still feel the residue
of the surgery, we`re still in pain but we still see recovery, there are
bright spots all over the city. People have cleaned up in large measure
but they`re still are bated breath with expectation so that America or the
state of Maryland doesn`t confuse our peace for -- really becoming idle,
we`re still waiting to see what is going to happen because we refuse to
believe that an indictment is a verdict.

DYSON: Mr. Henderson the police officers charged in the death of Freddie
Gray, want the charges dismissed what -- how do you handicapped their

HENDERSON: Well I -- it doesn`t look I`ve read the documents that they
filed in the court, it`s a 24-page document outlining their request either
to have the charges dismissed or for the state`s attorney to recuse herself
and to have an independent prosecutor to assigned to the case. You know,
they cite a number of legal arguments including the nature of the charges
for the (inaudible) being the foundation for all charges but it doesn`t
speak to the bigger picture that we have in this case where, at the end of
the day Freddie Gray is still dead as a result of something.

And so they make a lot of broad arguments talking about the state`s
attorney relationship both with her husband and also with her chief deputy
in this case. You know, one of the things I think that they fail to
recognize that I`m presume that a court will recognize when there`s a
response to these charges is that prosecutors are given why discretion in
terms of how cases get charged.

And so, I`m not overly optimistic that either of those results that are
being asked for from the defense are going to be heard and recognize from
the court. And that`s the -- either the dismissal or the independent
prosecutor assigned. I think it`s true, you know, fairly interesting legal
argument but, you know, prosecutors are always given why birth (ph) to make
the charging decisions that they make. And often times it comes at such an
early stage in a case, certainly they`re discrepancies that are built into
or -- a lot of those arguments, but I`m not overly optimistic that that`s
exactly what`s going to happen in this case.

DYSON: So, Pastor Bryant, give us a sense of Sandtown businesses if they
are recovering and then drawback a bit as you are capable of doing and give
us a kind of -- not an autopsy but you talk about post-op, at least a kind
of assessment of how the patient is doing in the future.

BRYANT: Absolutely, to your question, the city council is meeting in just
about an hour -- I`m leaving here to go there -- to give some kind of
assessment of the fiscal damage. It is an amble estimate that is about $25
million worth of damage has incurred on the city.

Michael, what is very critical is that the riot or the uprising that
happened in 1968 after the assassination of Dr. King cost D.C. a $113
million in `68 to rebuild. In Baltimore in 2015, you`re talking about $25
million. The focal point of the uprising in Baltimore has been one store,
a CVS store where as in those riots in 1968 or the uprising, what happened
in Los Angeles in 1992, you`re talking about blacks (ph) and so really
comparatively it`s a very small number but its being blown grossly out of

What it really says to is how much this enfranchisement is taking place
that they could only find one anchor store in that neighborhood and in that
community, and that`s what the community is crying out, almost like Freddie
Gray did in the back of that police vehicle to no aid, no assistance.

We need jobs, we need business, we need opportunities. The police union
here is moving vehemently trying to remove Atty. Mosby from the case but
the reality is, Michael, the prosecutor`s job is to do that, to prosecute.
You`re not supposed to be non-partial.

But we in the police feel as if, in the words of Michael Max (ph), "The
chickens are coming home to roost". Now, they`re trying to find somebody
else not as non-partial but as partial to their side. In the last 10 years
only 12 police officers have had full prosecution, and I think that what
America is crying out and all the more black America is crying out is if
there`s going to be justice, if there`s going to be a penal system it
should not just be tinted and tailored just to African-Americans but blue
people are going to have to be justice accountable as black people.

DYSON: There`s no doubt about that. Jamal Bryant and Paul Henderson, we
thank you so much for joining us here this evening.

BRYANT: Thank you.

HENDERSON: Thanks for having us.

DYSON: We have some breaking news on Tom Brady. We want to turn to that
right now to discuss with our, you know, viewers here what is going on, so
we will come back with this breaking news on Tom Brady after this break.


DYSON: As promised we got breaking news. The NFL has penalized the New
England Patriots following last week`s deflate-gate report.

Tom Brady will be suspended without pay for the first four games of the
2015 season for conduct detrimental to the integrity of the NFL.

Brady will also be able to participate in training camp in preseason games.
The NFL is also penalizing the Patriots for violating rules and failure to
comply with the subsequent investigation. The Patriots will be fined $1
million and forfeit their first round 2016 draft pick. They will also be
forced to forfeit their fourth round pick in 2007.

Joining me now by phone is Terence Moore, National Columnist for Sports on

Terence, this is pretty remarkable because all of the people who were
handicapping this was saying, look, they maybe give them two games, some
say it on the outer edge, if they give them four games, Tom Brady and the
New England Patriots will then argue against that and then will reduce to
two games. What do you think is going on here? Is this going to be
absolute, will it stand or do you think that the Patriots will come back
and try to appeal?

there`s good news here and there`s bad news. And the good news is, they
actually did something and I am somewhat shocked that they did something
and they did something pretty significant here.

Because when you start taking away a first round draft pick, that`s nothing
to ignore, and to suspend the great, his almighty Tom Brady for four games.
I mean that`s a miracle in itself.

Here is the bad news, they didn`t go far enough. You cannot suspend Tom
Brady without suspending Bill Belichick. These two guys are attached at
the hip.

Bill Belichick being the coach in guru or the New England Patriots and
remember now, back in 2007 for spy-gate when there were narrowed (ph) for
that, the thing that Roger Goodell said, emphatically, he said that, Bill
Belichick is the New England Patriots, he should be aware and he is aware
of everything that goes on in that organization.

You can`t say that back then and then all of a sudden come up with this
report and claim that Bill Belicheck and everybody else in the hierarchy is

DYSON: Well, didn`t -- the Ted Wells report suggested that was more likely
that not that Tom Brady was involved but it also exonerated if you will,
Bill Belichick and Mr. Kraft, the owner of the New England Patriots, are
you suggesting that the Ted Wells report did not do due diligence to
suggest that there`s a relation between them? Are you suggesting based on
history that Bill Belichick must have known what was going on?

MOORE: Well, I got a follow up, and let`s just go with something that just
recently happened. Just a few weeks ago, the NFL nailed the Atlanta
Falcons for pumping illegal crowd noise into the Georgia Dome.

DYSON: Right.

MOORE: And after the investigation, they said that Rich McKay, the
President of the Falcons was not involved yet they suspended Rich MacKay
from the NFL competition committee.

So there is already hypocrisy here within a matter of weeks. You cannot
suspend Rich McKay when you flat out say in your report that he knew
nothing about that illegal crowd noise but because Rich McKay who was the
president of the Falcons that he has indirectly guilty yet, come back with
this report which is more serious and say that you`re going to let Bill
Belichick off scot-free.

DYSON: OK. Terence, stay with us please. I want to bring in Steve
Kornacki, host of MSNBCs Steve Kornacki, "Up with Steve Kornacki."

Let me say this, Steve, this has been a shock to some people. Terence
Moore is saying, look it didn`t go far enough but some people have
suggested that, because the New England Patriots had been so untouchable
that anything like this, the first round draft picks as well as the
suspension of Americas quarterback Tom Brady in the case of the NFL is
pretty serious, where do you come down on this?

pretty big deal. I mean just -- take a few different pages of it, you look
at the fine, so you got a $1 million fine for the organization here. You
go back to the spy-gate thing in 2007, the fine back then -- there were
couple of them, they totalled $750,000, so this goes bigger than that.

A first round draft pick next year, that`s a big deal, fourth round pick in
2017, I just caught the tail end of your previous conversation but I know
the guest is -- it sounds like the guest is saying this doesn`t touch
Belichick, I guess it doesn`t exactly but, you know, Belichick is picking
the players for this team. Belichick is not going to be able to have a
first round pick next year.

It`s a pretty big deal, not exactly from Brady`s stand point. He`s going
to miss the first four games next year, that`s a quarter of the entire
season. So I mean, I think not just for Brady himself for the Patriots as
an organization. It is a pretty big blow with what the NFL is aiming in

DYSON: Well, there is no, there is no doubt that the New England Patriots
are taking over from the Dallas Cowboys as America`s team, that is
engendered quite a bit of resentment in millions of fans who think that
look, the New England Patriots often get away with murder so to speak. Has
their reputation been irretrievably tarnished here or do you think that
there`s some kind of come back in the offing because, you`ve already
mentioned spy-gate. There`s the sense that Belichick exist outside the
rules, that Mr. Kraft is too chummy with Roger Goodell.

Do you think all of that plays out in a way that we`ll hold them
accountable or is this like a slight slap on the hand and they`re going to
move on?

KORNACKI: I mean, look, I think when it comes to the Patriots and then
what the world thinks of them, I think opinion was sort of set in stone a
long time ago.

Because that`s majority of fans out there outside of New England with the
spy-gate thing, you know, now eight years ago decided this is sort of a,
you know, sort of an outlaw organization.

Facing (ph) New England obviously going to have a completely different, you
know, completely different take on that. But, you know, the only thing you
mentioned sort of the supposed chumminess between Kraft and Goodell, you
know, Kraft has been in the waterways from Goodell`s stand point a model
owner in terms of what you`ve done for the league.

I do wonder though if that sense played into Goodell`s decision to come
down, in my view, so hard of the Patriot here to sort of prove that his
chumminess wasn`t making him go soft in the Patriot.

DYSON: Right.

KORNACKI: To sort of sways (ph) some of the concerns of other owners that
he was too sort in the Patriots. You know, again, we`ll see if the
Patriots spend (ph) and get that knockdown but four games for Brady, I
think is a pretty and deal.

DYSON: All right. Let me turn it back to Terence Moore. Terence, look,
Tom Brady was the latest win in the Super Bowl. In the minds of many
people moved into first place or at least a tie with Joe Montana as the
greatest quarterback ever. What does this do to his legacy?

MOORE: Oh this kill it. And I`m going to talk about that in a minute. I
just want to point on one thing. This $1 million fine is nothing in a
grand scheme of thing. The New England Patriots are worth $1.5 billion
according to Forbes Magazine. Robert Kraft could find a $1 million between
the seat cushions of his car, all right?

Now as far as the Tom Brady thing goes, this kills his legacy because you
cannot look at this thing singularly as the just deflategate and not just
spy-game. Remember too that New England was found guilty or indirectly the
last few years of their substitution patterns and -- the way they were
putting players in and out of games to the point that the NFL changes the
entire rule book in regard to that because of the Patriots. And they spent
years monkeying around with the injury report.

So, if you start connecting the dots here, and you`d -- and it all goes
like to Tom Brady, it all goes back to Bill Belichick, anything these guys
have done over the last 15 years deserves a huge asterisk.

DYSON: OK. So, joining me now is Rob Simmelkjaer, NBC Sports Senior Vice
President. Mr. Simmelkjaer, Terence Moore has indicated that look this is
going to sully their entire reputation, that the Kraft organization, that
Bill Belichick as head coach and Tom Brady as the exemplary quarterback of
America will now all stand in bold relief against the kind of obvious
cheating that is gone on here. The -- Are you that cynical or do you think
-- or that skeptical about how their reputation will play out in the coming

not going to be helpful to their legacy, there`s no denying in that. This
is not a first offense. I think that clearly went into the NFL`s decision
here on the type of punishment that was handed down.

This is a little bit harsher than most of us observing this, expected it
would be. I thought Brady would get two games, maybe three. Four is a bit
on the high side. What really jumps out to me though was the punishment
given to the organization. A first round draft pick is a lot more, I think
and most people thought the organization would be penalized.

And I think that really does go to previous incidents that this
organization has have, the Spygate affair when the Patriots were found a
few years back to the videotaping other teams signals and trying to get an
unfair advantage through doing that.

The substitution patterns which were mentioned, they`ve done things like
that -- many of which were found to not be illegal under the current NFL
rules but rules had been changed and adjusted in order to keep up with the
Patriots and the things they do. But I mean, the bottom line is this is
obviously damaging to the reputation of the organization. It damages Tom
Brady`s reputation.

Do I think this makes him a complete fraud or a persona non grata around
the NFL? No, I don`t think so. I think he still has six Super Bowls, four
wins. I think a lot of that still is meaningful in terms of his record.

DYSON: Well, speak to us about the broader context here because after
Adrian Peterson and Ray Rice and many of the charges of domestic violence
have played themselves out on the television screens of American society.
America`s game has taken a huge hit.

Do you think that the context of those kinds of troubles played any role in
the perceived harshness of the penalty here? Because Ray Rice got two
games, Tom Brady has four. One for domestic violence, one for cheating in
terms of footballs

SIMMELKJAER: Well, I think that the initial Ray Rice penalty, of course,
Roger Goodell has come and said, he got it wrong in that case. They ended
up extending that Ray Rice penalty to indefinite, a full season,
essentially before he is reinstated earlier this year.

I don`t think that the two really correlated. I think, on one hand, you`re
talking about off the field, unrelated to the game conduct. We`ve seen
Greg Hardy and other player who was recently suspended for 10 games because
of a domestic violence incident. I think that`s now the new standard for
domestic violence. Things that are happening of the field is much harsher

I think, this was more an issue of the integrity of the game, the way the
game is played and the fact that you`ve got a team and individuals working
for a team trying to skirt the rules of the game.

This is more of a football issue to me. As oppose to a life issue and
bigger than what`s going on the field such as the Ray Rice situation.

DYSON: All right. Rob, stay with us. Joining me now by phone is former
NFL quarterback Sage Rosenfels.

Mr. Rosenfels, what do you think about this? Is A, does Tom Brady take a
huge hit in terms of this reputation? Nothing like this, of course
surrounded Joe Montana manipulating the rate of air in a football to gain a
competitive advantage. Do you think, A, it besmirches his reputation and
B, do you think the organization was held to account insufficient manner?

reputation just a little bit, and as the guy who played the position for 12
years in NFL, I think so highly of Tom Brady and his ability as a
quarterback to lead that football team.

But it`s pretty obvious with information that came out that he did cheat
and he did try to get pass the rules that everything else was abiding by.
So, you know, I think, his punishment is fair. I think, it`s actually was
probably extended a little bit because he was not as cooperative as the NFL
would have liked.

He didn`t hand over his phone or text messages. He didn`t really want to
make himself guilty with anything. So -- and secondly, I think the
Patriots were given a really harsh punishment.

I was really surprised by this. I, you know, this was not something that
was rampant during the organization. It wasn`t something at the GM level
or head coach level or I mean of the front officer. This is a very low
level employee served at the bottom of the ring, in the organization out
that he and Tom has something working together to break the rules. And so,
it does surprise me -- not necessarily the $1 million fine because we`re
talking about billionaires here, but it does surprise me the first round
draft pick and the fourth round draft pick over the course the next two

DYSON: Well, do you think it`s indicative of the fact that there`s a
perception out there whether well-earned or not, that the Patriots are
above the fray (ph) so to speak, that they don`t get the same kind of
treatment everybody else`s gets. I bet Sean Payton in New Orleans right
now was saying, hey, finally somebody is treating them like they treated

So, do you think that the perception is, that there`s a upper class and
that the Patriots occupy that and this is kind of compensatory justice
making up for all that other stuff that they get a way with?

ROSENFELS: There might be that. And I think Belichick isn`t really well
that well liked probably amongst, you know, the ownership of the NFL and he
makes things very difficult for a lot of the upper management -- people in
the NFL.

So, you know, they`ve been caught a few times in the past obviously,
everyone knows about Spygate and I think, you know, the NFL and Roger
Goodell and his people are trying to come down on them and say, "Hey,
enough is enough. We got a very certain rules in place." We`re talking
about billion dollar organizations here and going to the playoff and not
going to playoff is a of money and a lot of things that are posing negative
in the organization.

So, there`s a lot of rules in the NFL. And they`re trying to make things
as black and white as possible. And it seems like the Patriots have done a
great job over the course with the last, you know, 10 or 15 years of taking
advantage of all the gray area and the black and white.

DYSON: Right.

ROSEFELS: It looks like is this situation, they stepped over the line and
the NFL came down pretty harshly on them

DYSON: Well, look. You were -- for more than a decades, 12 years a
quarterback in the NFL. That`s the key position. The point guard so to
speak of the team, so is this going to change the modus operandi of
quarterbacks because they are ones who determined, this feels good to me,
this ball is good, I want to go with this, will this alter in any way the
practices of typical quarterbacks?

ROSENFELS: I really hope not, I think the system they have in place was
perfectly fine. I think it was all about how they police the system and
it`s pretty obvious that -- from when the balls are check by the official
before the game, an hour and a half or two hours before the game, those
balls should never leave that official side.

And my guess is that whoever been in control of those footballs on the
sidelines now, it`s going to be a little more lock and key and things can
be a little bit tighter. So, (inaudible) I think is better. I do think
it`s important that NFL quarterback have a chance to work in those
footballs because there were balls that are best -- that they like the best
for the game because I think it helps their product out (ph).

Nobody wants a brand new slick football. You`re going to have any act of
passage. You`re going to have lot of drafts or you can have lot more
stumbles. I do think that end so. The work in footballs does help the
league and help the -- helps the play.

DYSON: All right. Let`s go back to Sport`s Columnist Terence Moore. We
got about a minute left. Terence, do you think this is going to change in
any way how quarterbacks to go about their business and how much we have
put them on the scrutiny?

MOORE: Well, not really. Not in the sense that what they`ve been doing in
the past but, you know, everybody that I`ve talked to and I`m talking
about, you know, I`ve been covering the NFL for 40 something years. No one
has ever seen anything at -- to this level.

I talked to Dan Reeves. Dan Reeves is like the fourth Gump (ph) of the
NFL. He`s not -- he`s either played coach or administered a Super Bowl
more than anybody in the history of the NFL. He said he`s never seen
anything like this to point. You know, this is just beyond anything and

DYSON: All right, Terence. I got to run. You got a lot of stuff you

MOORE: Sure.

DYSON: We got to run right now. But, I thank you so much for that. And I
appreciate the comments that you`ve made here tonight.

I thank all of you for your time tonight. Just a recap, the NFL has
suspended Tom Brady without pay for four games. The Patriots have been
fined $1 million and they will be forced to give up their 1st round draft
pick in 2016 and 4th round draft pick in 2017.

That`s the Ed Show. I`m Michael Eric Dyson in for Ed Schultz.

Here`s a quarterback of PoliticsNation.


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