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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, May 18th, 2015

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Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: May 18, 2015
Guest: Naomi Martin, James Quinn, Patrick Swanton, Juan Cole, Ceceilia
Munoz, Sam Seder, Michael Steele



(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO POLICE: They`re not here to drink beer
and eat barbecue. They came with violence in mind.

A Texas strip mall turns into a war zone, up to 170 now face murder-
related charges after five gangs faced off in a shoot-out with police.
We`ll go live to Waco for the latest.

Plus, the president`s new plan to demilitarize American police, the
Republican plan to kick candidates off of the debate stage, and update on
Australian politician threatening the lives of Johnny Depp`s dogs, and did
Jay-Z and Beyonce pay tens of thousands to bail out Baltimore protesters?

JAY-Z: Make some noise.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Nine people are dead. Eight injured and at least 170 behind bars
after one of the most gruesome outbreaks of gang violence in recent
American history. The bloodshed unfolded in broad daylight on Sunday
afternoon at a shopping center in Waco, Texas, where according to police,
members of at least five different biker gangs gathered at the Twin Peaks
restaurant chain. Officials said a scuffle between rival gang members
broke out in the bathroom and overflowed into the restaurant where shots
were fired. From there, a full-fledged shoot-out spilled out into the
parking lot, forcing shoppers at the strip mall, stores like Bed Bath &
Beyond, Kohl`s and the Gap to take cover.

Police officers who were already on the scene having anticipated
trouble at the gathering of 200-plus bikers. They responded in under a
minute, according to officials, engaging the shooters in a gun fight. By
the time backup arrived and the situation was under control, the scene was
littered with spent shell casings, blood stains and everything from guns
and knives to clubs, chains and brass knuckles. Police said they recovered
over 100 weapons.

McLennan County sheriff told the "Associated Press" that all nine of
the people killed were members of the Bandidos and the Cossacks, two rival
biker gangs competing for turf in Texas.

Violence between the two goes back to at least 2013 when two Bandidos
members alleged stabbed members of the Cossacks outside a roadhouse in
Abilene, Texas.

The Department of Justice considers the Bandidos one of the country`s
major outlaw motorcycle gang, citing criminal activity, such as violent
crime, weapons trafficking and drug trafficking.

The Twin Peaks restaurant where the shoot-out started is a known biker
hangout, according to police, hosting a weekly gang night where gang
members try to recruit -- gangs tried to recruit new members. And today,
Waco police accused the restaurant of failing to cooperate with efforts to
prevent an outbreak of violence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SGT. W. PATRICK SWANTON, WACO POLICE: We have a very good cooperative
spirit with our community. It was unfortunate we didn`t necessarily have
that with a particular business yesterday. And it led absolutely had some
bearing on what occurred here yesterday.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Restaurant`s liquor license suspended for a week. Its Twin
Peaks franchise has been revoked.

Meanwhile, the 170 bikers arrested in yesterday`s violence, 33 of them
pictured here are each, each being held on $1 million bond. They`re all
being charged with organized crime in connection with capital murder.

Joining me now, Naomi Martin, public safety reporter for "The Dallas
Morning News".

So, here`s the first question, Naomi. I think this news hit
nationally with people just jaw-dropping what the hell is going on down
there. Is it the same locally there or is this something that has been a
problem that therefore is maybe not as surprising?

NAOMI MARTIN, DALLAS MORNING NEWS: No, I think you`re right on with
that reaction. I think a lot of general public, you know, people are
shocked and appalled at what happened here. You`re seeing a lot of
reaction from residents in Waco and around Texas saying, you know, we
didn`t know we had such a problem with these biker gangs. Could that
happen again?

But the police, however, aren`t that surprised. They know they`re
saying that these groups are known to be very violent, criminal
enterprises, heavy into drug dealing and other criminal acts to make money.
So, the police aren`t surprised but I think the general public is pretty
shocked.

HAYES: The police have been giving updates about sort of processing
their way through the scene. They`ve charged people with organized crime
in connection with capital murder. It occurs to me that given how chaotic,
bloody, brutal the scene was, that even making cases is going to be
difficult.

MARTIN: Yes. I mean, they are using a 3D laser imager right now to
try to reconstruct the crime scene, but it`s a huge crime scene. They`ve
got the entire restaurant littered with bullet casings and blood. They`ve
got those hundreds of motorcycles and cars that they have to process
outside in the parking lot.

So, it`s going to take awhile for them to finish processing this crime
scene. But after that, the police are saying that you know, they still
have a lot of witnesses to interview. I mean, the good thing is, according
to the police that, you know, 170 defendants. So, they`re hoping they`ll
be able to get some cooperation from at least some of them and hopefully be
able to build some cases on what exactly happened.

They also have autopsies pending. So, that ballistic evidence will
help point to who fired the shots and what that led to the nine dead and 18
injured.

HAYES: Had the police released the name of the people either in
custody or the deceased?

MARTIN: They`ve released the names of about 30 people in custody.
But they haven`t released the names of the deceased. They`re being
autopsied actually in Dallas, and they`re taking their time with it. The
police are saying that you know, it`s a very complicated process. For this
huge of a case and so they`re not releasing the names of those people.

Some of the family members in the hospital room were -- I know were
taken to a separate waiting area. They identify themselves as family
members of the biker gang members, and the hospital staff brought them into
another waiting room for safety reasons.

HAYES: There`s also some word coming from police earlier about
possible threats of -- against police by other bike members. So far, no
additional attacks or anything liking that have played out. Is that
correct?

MARTIN: That`s correct. The police said that they did hear that the
biker gangs had put out sort of orders to attack law enforcement. But that
hasn`t borne out.

However, the police are still very beefing up on security all around
here. They had a sniper on top of the roof earlier, on top of the Twin
Peaks and they have pretty heavy security around with assault rifles and
tactical gear just in case biker gang members do try to return and
retaliate.

HAYES: All right. Naomi Martin, thank you.

According to a spokesman for the Waco Police Department, 18 of their
officers were already on the scene before yesterday`s shoot-out and were in
all in uniform, were in clearly marked tactical gear. Bikers ostensibly
knew they were there and they still opened fire on each other inside the
restaurant. Law enforcement officials have been watching the Twin Peaks in
Waco for about two months, keeping an eye on biker gang activity there.

And intelligence tip according to police suggested serious was about
to go down yesterday afternoon. We still don`t know the why different
biker gangs gathered together in one location or what provoked the fight
that turned into a bloodbath.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My son`s in there, my husband`s in there, and
the Bandidos gang members always think they do whatever they want to
people, pull guns out and start shooting people. That`s what they did in
there. Nobody was doing anything and they want to start shooting people.
They don`t leave people alone. I don`t know what the problem is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: I`m joined now by Professor James Quinn who studies outlaw
motorcycle gangs at the University of North Texas.

Professor, can you give us a little bit of background about the
Bandidos, the Cossacks? What exactly -- how would you describe what they
are, these essentially like organized crime families? Are these like the
ilks? Is this some kind you have institution somewhere in between the two?

JAMES F. QUINN, UNIVERSITY OF NORTH TEXAS: It`s really a mixture of
different influences. There`s an organized crime element to most of these
clubs. There`s also a fraternal element. There`s a lot of variability
across their local chapters.

With the Bandidos, you`re talking about an international organization.
With the Cossacks, you`re talking about a much smaller statewide
organization. The Bandidos have been indicted many times for various
organized crime networks. The Cossacks have been pretty low profile.

HAYES: The Bandidos have had sort of famously a beef with the Hell`s
Angels. In fact, there was a murder in Austin of someone who was starting
a Hell`s Angel club that they were suspected of committing. I mean, how
often do we see this -- obviously not this level of violence but violence
of this kind committed by one of these gangs?

QUINN: This kind of violence is I`d say almost totally unprecedented.
Violence in a highly public area during the day or things like that is I
can only think of one or two such incidents in American history
practically. And the death toll here is much higher. Probably due to
firepower, but I`d let the police work that out.

HAYES: Do you think we are seeing these gangs grow? Have they sort
of been like this for a long time and this just was a bit of happenstance?
And do you have any idea why there were so many in this small area?

QUINN: Why there were so many there, I wouldn`t want to make a guess
on at this point. I don`t have any direct information about this incident.
These groups started out basically in the late `50s, early `60s, and they
got more sophisticated and more professional you might say in some of their
activities.

As time progressed, we started seeing really serious violence and
really serious organized crime during the `80s and `90s, it`s backed off a
little bit since the early 2000s, but smaller incidents like the one you
described in Austin are more the norm for the sub-culture usually late at
night, away from where normal citizens would gather.

And that`s what`s so unprecedented about this. The earlier incidents
were at a tattoo show and a gambling casino and the gambling casino
incident was pretty late at night.

HAYES: The Bandidos have a reputation for being fairly violent. They
are located or headquartered in Texas. I mean, Texas is essentially their
home turf. Isn`t that right?

QUINN: They were founded in Galveston in 1969. So, they consider
this their heartland and any intimation of the Hell`s Angels coming into
this state would certainly evoke a very extreme reaction from them.

Law enforcement has been quoted as saying that might have been a
factor that the Cossacks might have had some sort of talking relationship
with the Hell`s Angels. There`s a long history of violence between those
twos clubs in the United States, Canada, and Europe. They`re the two the
superpowers of the sub-culture. There are some smaller clubs that are less
sophisticated and smaller in number. But these are the two very large
international clubs that are really slugging it out with each other to run
the sub-culture, to dominate the sub-culture.

HAYES: I saw one photo of a few gentlemen wearing biker vests that
appeared to have the SS insignia on them, a sort of reference obviously to
white supremacist, Nazi organizations. Is there any kinds of connections
to these groups? You can`t help but notice there`s a certain uniformity to
these gentlemen in terms of their demographics.

QUINN: At a formal level, no. At an informal level, very often,
there is some interaction. There tends to be a racist bias within a lot of
the clubs. Again, you have to go chapter by chapter because each chapter
is different. Chapters being the local group.

But there is a racist bias. There is lot of overlap or contact with
white supremacists.

HAYES: All right. James Quinn, who studies these groups --
Professor, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

QUINN: My pleasure.

HAYES: All right. Joining me now Patrick Swanton, public information
officer for the Waco Police Department.

Sergeant, what -- can you describe your understanding, your
department`s understanding of what exactly was happening before this fight
broke out on Sunday at this Twin Peaks and how your department learned
about it?

SWANTON: I will tell you through criminal intelligence resource, we
were made aware of biker activity at this club, been going on for a while.
We`ve been watching it and processing information as we could. We knew
Sunday, there was a large contingent of individuals that were there at the
club. And in response to that, we had a large contingent of officers
available to deal with that.

HAYES: Let me ask you this. Obviously, this is incredibly anomalous
in the sense that we`ve never seen anything like this, but how much of
policing in Waco involves policing or dealing with these kinds of groups?
Is this something common for your officers to have to deal with?

SWANTON: You know, I will tell you I`ve been here 34 years. In the
34 years that I`ve been here, we`ve had biker gangs in and around Waco,
nothing to the magnitude of the event that occurred here Sunday afternoon.

We know they`re in the area. They come, they go. Typically it`s bar
fights between them. They kind of keep to their selves. We have seen an
increase in that in the past few years. And obviously, we`ve seen a heavy
increase in the past couple of months.

HAYES: There`s some reports at least four of these bikers were
actually killed by police in the shoot-out that ensued as police attempted
to bring this episode to some kind of order. Can you confirm that?

SWANTON: Yes, I will tell you that`s incorrect information and it has
not come from us. They have not processed the bodies yet, so that
information that`s been put out there was not from us and it is not
reliable information.

That`s a long process. I don`t know that they`ve even started the
autopsies on those nine individuals that were murdered and shot here at the
Twin Peaks. So, no, that is not good information.

HAYES: How do you go about given the sheer chaos of what transpired,
how do you go about putting together actual criminal cases here?

SWANTON: It`s a lot of work. A lot of investigative detail will go
into this, a lot of evidence process will go into this. It`s a lot of
officers feet on the ground and doing lots of interviews, backgrounds,
interrogations, evidence processing. It will be a long drawn out process.

HAYES: Can you tell the citizens of Waco that they are safe as of
this hour tonight? I mean, do you worry about further recriminations, any
further retribution from any of the gangs that they`re associated with this
event on Sunday?

SWANTON: Yes, and we`ve talked about that. I think as early as last
night, I was assuring our citizens you`ve got a very strong police force in
the Waco area and that includes not only us, it includes county, state and
federal officers that are here, as well.

We have enough officers to handle whatever we need to handle. We
don`t think the threat is directed at our citizens at all. We think the
threat is directed at rival bike gang members and law enforcement. We
believe that. We know it`s a threat towards us and awarded to handle that
if we need to.

HAYES: All right. Sergeant Patrick Swanton, who`s been working very
hard, thank you very much.

SWANTON: Yes, sir.

HAYES: Still ahead, a presidential backlash against the
militarization of police.

Plus, ISIS militants seize a key town in Iraq.

And as yet another Republican says he`s running in 2016, news the
party plans to cap the primary debates. We`ll bring in the former chair of
the RNC to figure out who might make the cut, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There we go.

UNIDENTIFED MALE: That looks good.

OBAMA: Huh?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s out there.

OBAMA: That`s out there, baby. Follow the tweets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: History was made today as the president got his very own
Twitter account tweeting as @POTUS. "Hello Twitter, it`s Barack. Really,
six years in, they`re finally giving me my own account." The Twitter world
quickly picked up on the new handle, and @potus gained over 1 million
followers including @BillClinton, who tweeted, "Welcome to @twitter,
@potus, one question, does that user name stay with the office?
#askingforafriend". To which President Obama replied, "Good question
@BillClinton. The handle comes with the house. Know anyone interested in
in flotus." Of course, @flotus as been around for years, longer than
potus.

Check out what she had to say to the president plus many of the other
tweets he got today on our Facebook page. And tomorrow starting at noon,
I`ll be on Facebook. Just head over to Facebook.com/allinwithchris, and
ask me anything. While you`re there, go ahead and hit the like button.
You know how much we love that.

(COMMERIAL BREAK)

HAYES: The black flag of ISIS now flies over the city of Ramadi, the
largest city in western Iraq and a capital of Anbar province, just 70 miles
west of Baghdad.

The Iraqi government had tried to keep Ramadi in its control through a
combination of U.S. airstrikes and Iraqi forces, which apparently proved
insufficient. ISIS fighters advanced over the weekend with the remaining
Iraqi security forces reportedly fleeing the city just yesterday. Some
U.S. military hardware was left behind now in the hands of ISIS.

The State Department says the U.S. airstrikes will continue and that
the U.S. always knew the fight against ISIS would be long and difficult.
These ghostly images released by an ISIS affiliated media unit purport to
show the center of Ramadi after the city fell under the full control of
ISIS.

Now, according to a senior Iraqi security official speaking to NBC
News, about 3,000 Iran-backed Shia militia fighters are massing to retake
the overwhelmingly Sunni city, which of course has the potential to only
further escalate the violence tearing Iraq apart and fueling the ongoing
war including the rise of ISIS.

It has now been nine months since the U.S. began the bombing campaign
against ISIS in Iraq, and where exactly do U.S. efforts stand.

Joining me now, Juan Cole, professor of history at the University of
Michigan, author of "The New Arabs: How the Millennial Generation is
Changing the Middle East."

Professor, what is your reaction to the news about Ramadi falling to
the Islamic State?

JUAN COLE, UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN: Well, it`s pretty dramatic. This
city is a very large city, several hundred thousand people. And it`s not
very far from the capital of Baghdad. And so, it can`t be good news for
the Baghdad government to have its army basically run away from ISIL so
close to their home base.

HAYES: There did seem to be at the beginning I would say maybe four
or five months ago, it seemed like there were some key defeats for ISIS.
There was a big defeat along the Syrian-Turkish border largely as the hands
of Kurdish fighters there in Kobani. There have been other areas in which
they`ve lost territory.

But it`s hard to construct a narrative that -- a truthful narrative
that says they`re in retreat writ large. Would you agree?

COLE: The Iraqi army and its Shiite militia allies have more of a
base in nearby Baqubah and Diyala province and then fighting on north, they
took Tikrit and then the Kurds will defend their homeland and Kurdish area
such as Mt. Sinjar.

So the advances have come where the troops involved have been closer
to a home base. Ramadi is al Anbar province is the capital. It`s a
largely Sunni Arab area. The Shiite troops of the Iraqi government are
aliens there, they`re far away from home. And so, it seems to be more
difficult for them to make progress under those circumstances.

HAYES: There seems to be continuity in this respect, Anbar province,
of course, was the heart of the insurgency when American forces are there.
American forces are a tremendously difficult time taking territory in
precisely those areas. And there`s some evidence to support the contention
this is basically the same essentially group of people who are fighting
American troops then fighting the Iraqi government now.

COLE: Sure. Al Anbar province was a hot bed of resistance to the
U.S. military presence and to the construction of a new largely Shiite
dominated government. Back in 2005, 2006, 2007, you had hundreds of people
being killed every month there in insurgency. And the U.S. did try to get
some of the rural tribal people on its side in that area with some success.
But the Shiite government in Baghdad did not like that program, did not
want to arm the Sunnis and didn`t follow through.

HAYES: Finally, there was a raid against a key ISIS figure or people
that American sources say was a key ISIS figure Abu Sayyaf this weekend by
U.S. Special Forces inside of Syria. How big a deal is that? Is personnel
particularly notable here, or are we going to see this person replaced by
someone else?

COLE: I think largely, these decapitation strikes are strikes on
individual administrators don`t have that big an impact. The U.S. took out
Abu Musab Zarqawi in 2006 who was then the head of al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.
That group morphed into ISIL and now has 42 percent of Iraq.

HAYES: Remarkably, we sort of live in Zarqawi`s world many years
after he was killed.

Juan Cole, thank you very much.

Up next, what Jay-Z and Beyonce reportedly did behind the scenes in
Baltimore and the president`s surprising amount on the Pentagon to police
pipeline.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We`re going to prohibit some equipment made for the
battlefield that is not appropriate for local police departments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERICAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Mr. Belafonte, you had called out Jay-Z and Beyonce in an
interview you did a year ago for what you saw as an insufficient commitment
to using their celebrity in the cause of justice.

BELAFONTE: I would be hard pressed to tell Mr. Jay-Z what to do with
his time and fortune. I can only be critical what he`s not doing. Having
said that, I will like to take this opportunity to say to Jay-Z and to
Beyonce I`m wide open. My heart is filled with nothing but hope and the
promise that we can sit and have a one-on-one and let`s understand each
other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: When I spoke to iconic singer/songwriter and social activist
Harry Belafonte back in 2013 he had invited Jay-Z and Beyonce to take up
the mantle of social justice activism.

Over the weekend, there reports indicating the couple might be doing
just that. First on Saturday, Jay-Z, who is not necessarily known as a
particularly political rapper had this to say at a concert here in New
York.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAY-Z, RAPPER: You know it`s (EXPLETIVE DELETED) time for equal pay,
right? You know when I work, (inaudible) slave, right? You know I ain`t
shucking and jivving and high fiving, you notice it ain`t back in the days,
right?

But I can`t tell how the way to kill Freddie Gray, right, shot down
Mike Brown, how they did Trey, right?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: And on Sunday, writer Jane Hampton (ph), who co-authored Jay-
Z`s memoir Decoded, launched a series of tweets that suggested Jay`s
support for the Black Lives Matter movement goes beyond dropping the names
of Freddy Gray, Mike Brown and Trayvon Martin. Hampton`s tweets read in
part, quote, "when we needed money for bail for Baltimore protesters I hit
up Jay as I had for Ferguson, wired tens of thousands in minutes.

She also tweeted, quote, when Black Lives Matter needed infrastructure
and money for the many chapters that were growing like beautiful
dandelions, Carters wrote a huge check.

Those tweets were quickly deleted, but not before they were captured
by Complex magazine.

None of this has been confirmed by Jay-Z or Beyonce. We called the
lawyer in Baltimore who represented some of the protesters there who were
locked up. He said he didn`t know anything about it.

But I have heard from sourcess the couple is active in the Black Lives
Matter movement and are looking to get more active.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We`ve seen how
militarized gear can sometimes give people a feeling like there`s an
occupying force as opposed to the force that`s part of a community that`s
protecting them and serving them, can alienate and intimidate local
residents and send the wrong message. So we`re going to prohibit some
equipment made for the battlefield that is not appropriate for local police
departments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Today, President Obama announced that his administration is
banning the transfer of certain military style weapons from the Pentagon to
police departments across the country.

The policy change is an about face that comes over two decades after
the federal government officially started funneling military grade
equipment to law enforcement.

Those transfers have become increasingly controversial, particularly
after, I think it`s fair to say, a shocked public was confronted with
pictures of police in Ferguson, Missouri who looked more ready to conquer a
foreign country than police a protest.

Today`s announcement about military gear is just one policy of many
that came out of a White House review initiated after last year`s unrest.

Earlier today, I asked Cecelia Munoz, assistant to the president,
director of the domestic policy council, to walk me through exactly what
the president unveiled in Camden, New Jersey today, a city that`s been site
of some promising police reforms.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CECEILIA MUNOZ, DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE DOMESTIC POLICY COUNCIL: What
we learned in December is that there are a bunch of different programs at
different federal agencies, all of them have legislative authority from
congress, to either transfer equipment or to transfer funds so that local
police offices can buy military style equipment.

And so what the president did was issue an executive order. He
created a group across the federal government that reported out today a
recommendation to
restrict -- have a prohibited list of equipment that is really meant for
the battlefield and not meant for local police forces, things like grenade
launchers or
camouflage gear. You don`t need camouflage gear in a city.

So, those items will be prohibited.

And then there`s a longer list of equipment that police forces need
under some circumstances, but in order to get access to the equipment the
local police force will have to explain what they think they need it for.
They will have to show that they have training in place including training
on community policing and constitutional policing.

So it`s new rules of the road for equipment that`s appropriate for
local police forces, and a list that`s prohibited of stuff that`s just not
appropriate.

HAYES: It`s interesting you cited camouflage, because I remember some
of the images coming out of Ferguson those first few days that really kind
of caught a lot of people`s attention were men in camouflage. And the
question arose to a lot of
us, what exactly are they trying to blend into in essentially, you know,
camo in the middle of a municipality outside St. Louis?

MUNOZ: Exactly. It`s pretty hard to communicate we`re all part of
one community and this is about keeping everybody safe when you have that
kind of dynamic.

But of course we want to strike a balance so that a police force
that`s dealing with an active shooter or some kind of terrible situation
has the equipment that they need, but they need to be prepared to use it
wisely and well, and so that`s what this report attempts to do.

HAYES: One of the things the president spoke about today in Camden
was this new data initiative which will sort of pool a bunch of resources
to try to get central repositories of data about things like use of force.

And my big question is, it looks to me like you`ve got a real input
problem right, a garbage in, garbage out problem insofar as whether local
departments are actually tracking and keeping the data to put into any kind
of system that might be supported by the federal government.

MUNOZ: Right. So if you look, for example, and Camden where the
president visited today, we have a data team on the ground to help them
organize their data. They have something like 41 different systems that
don`t always talk to each other. so we have a team on the ground for a
couple of days helping them sort through so that they collect information
that they can use internally to see when there are problem behaviors that
could lead to problems in the community and stop problems before they
start. So that`s one use of data that`s really important.

And then the other one that a lot of police agencies have also signed
up for is to release data publicly on things like pedestrian stops or
traffic stops or uses of force. And when you make that information
transparent and available to the public you can engage the whole community
in the exercise of making sure that the police have the practices in place
to do their job well, to do their job safely and to keep the whole
community safe.

HAYES: You know I`ve got to say these seem like extremely worthwhile
initiatives, but taking a step back there does seem a little bit of a
mismatch between the scope of the problem we`re talking about here and the
kinds of activity we are seeing from the White House, and part of that has
to do with what congress can -- will or won`t do, et cetera.

But I mean, we`re talking about a mass incarceration system, a system
of policing that has been built up over decades. I mean, are we going to
see more
aggressive action from this White House, maybe things statutory in nature
to go at this problem?

MUNOZ: Well, statutory things have to come from the congress. So
what you`re seeing us do, is if the president appointed a task force of
police experts but also young people, organizers and activists that came up
with a set of recommendations, we are looking at that set of
recommendations as a blueprint for what we should be doing, but also what
local police should be doing, so the police data initiative came out of
that.

Right now, we`re working with 21 communities. That list grew by about
seven communities in the last week. We`re hoping that list is going to
continue to grow.

At the end of the day, it feels like a veil has been lifted from a
problem that has been going on for a long time in some communities. What
the president highlighted today is a community like Camden, which is really
doing a lot that`s right. They are investing in opportunity, they`re
investing in community policing. They`re looking at data internally.
They`re going to release data publicly. And crime has gone down and the
police officers in Camden have not discharged their weapons in two years
despite doing policing in often very dangerous circumstances where people
have weapons.

So, there is good news here and we want to see more of it around the
country.

HAYES: So, I just want to come back to this decision one more time,
though, because obviously any laws need to be written by congress, they
need to pass by congress but when the president really wants something,
when he -- it`s really a priority he`ll go to congress. I mean, right now
he`s trying to get trade promotion authority from them. Obviously, there`s
been a huge amount of legislative successes this White House has gotten out
of both Democratic congresses and Republican congresses.

So, the question is if this is a priority, are we going to see
anything put before congress in the next two years?

MUNOZ: Yes, in fact the president has already put to the congress a
budget proposal to dramatically increase the resources to help local police
purchase and use properly body cameras. So, yes, there is a congressional
approach.

But at the end of the day there are 18,000 local police forces around
the country and they are governed locally. They are not governed by the
federal government. And so these are local practices that need to be put
in place.

One of the things we are doing is making sure that the federal
resources that go to those local communities are lined up with this task
force report and its recommendations. So, that if you want money from the
cops program at the Department of Justice, you need to show what your
community policing strategy is.

So, we`re using the tools we have in the federal government. And
frankly, we are inviting local police forces who want to get this right to
join us because there are a lot of good practices and a lot of good
strategies that they can put in place that we can help them put in place.

And places like Camden show that this is possible, this is achievable
and frankly it`s preferable. This community is safer because the local
police adopted these practices. We want to see more of that happen.

HAYES: Cecelia Munoz of the domestic policy counsel, thank you very
much. Appreciate it.

MUNOZ: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HAYES: Still ahead, as more and more Republicans run for president
who will get kicked off the debate stage? But first, as Johnny Depp`s dogs
flee Australia, the official who threatened to euthanize them comes under
fire at home.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KYLE SANDILANDS, RADIO SHOW HOST: What I`m saying is, you sound like
an absolute clown telling the guy to bugger off back to Hollywood or we`ll
kill his dogs. You sound like an idiot. You`re a government minister, not
some idiot off the streets mouthing off to a news camera.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Last week we brought news of the daring escape from certain
death made by Johnny Depp`s Yorkshire terriers Pistol and Boo. The fled
Australia with just hours left before the country`s agricultural minister
Barnaby Joyce had promised to have them killed.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARNABY JOYCE, AUSTRALIAN AGRICULTURAL MINISTER: Now, Mr. Depp has to
either take his dogs back to California or we`re going to have to euthanize
them. So, it`s time that Pistol and Boo buggered off back to the United
States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Mr. Joyce accused Depp of sneaking Pistol and Boo into
Australia without getting the proper permits. And he actually gave the
dogs a get out or die deadline. But he`s encountered a bit of a backlash
for his tough on dog crime stance. For example, when Mr. Joyce appeared on
a popular Australian radio show late last week, the shock jock host did not
mince words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SANDILANDS: you sound like an absolute clown, telling the guy to
bugger off back to Hollywood or we`ll kill his dogs. You sounds like an
idiot. You`re a government minister not some idiot off the street mouthing
off to a news camera. Have some decency.

JOYCE: Jeez, Kyle that seems interesting coming from you, mate.
You`re the number one...

SANDILANDS: Oh, shut up, Barnaby. You`re an absolute joke, Barnaby.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: That`s how they do, Down Under apparently.

John Oliver`s HBO show Last Week Tonight decided to take this saga as
an opportunity to issue a threat of his own in hopes of riding America of
unwanted Australian things.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: You can start by taking your disgusting Vegemite, which
tastes like a kangaroo (EXPLETIVE DELETED).

We`re also going to need you to take back Rupert Murdoch and Mel
(EXPLETIVE DELETED) Gibson. And while we know, Mel Gibson was technically
born in Peekskill, New York, but you raised him so he`s your fault.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: No word yet on what efforts are being taken to remove Mel
Gibson, Rupert Murdoch and Vegemite from U.S. soil.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: I`m running, because I think
the world is falling apart. I`ve been more right than wrong on foreign
policy. It`s not the fault of others, or their lack of this or that that
makes me want to run. It`s my ability in my own mind to be a good
commander-in-chief and to make Washington work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HAYES: Republican Senator Lindsey Graham hasn`t formally declared
he`s running for president. He`ll be announcing his plans on June 1 in his
home state of South Carolina, but Graham left little question today that he
is in fact in.

There are already six candidates who formally declared they are
seeking GOP presidential nomination: Ben Carson, Ted Cruz, Carly Fiorina,
Mike Huckabee, Rand Paul and Marco Rubio. There`s another nine
Republicans, including Graham, who are widely expected to run. Among them
of course: Jeb Bush, who mistakenly stated the obvious last week,
accidentally letting slip that he is, yes, running for president.

The shear number of candidates is making it very difficult to plan GOP
presidential debates. Republicans have never had more than ten candidates
on a televised presidential debate stage. And you might remember how
unwieldy 10 was.

But by this August when the first scheduled GOP presidential debate
will take place, there are expected to be at least 15 major candidates in
the race, 15.

But you can`t have 15 people on a debate stage. It doesn`t work. So
who do you cut and why?

When we come back, we`re to try to come up with a defensible set of
criteria for which GOP candidates get to be on stage. Here to help is a
guy whose job it used to by figure this sort of stuff out: Michael Steele,
former chairman of the RNC. Stick around, this is not going to be easy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HAYES: Political report on Friday, a consensus is taking hold among
Republican to cap the first GOP presidential debate so that there is a
maximum of 12 candidates on stage. The problem is that at least 15
candidates are expected to be in the race by the first debate in August,
which would mean three candidates would need be cut. But who?

One obvious choice would be Carly Fiorina who is polling at just 1
percent in national polls. But Fiorina is the only woman in the GOP field,
so is the party really open to cutting her out?

RNC spokesman Sean Spitzer telling reporters Friday that, quote, just
because of your gender you`re not going to get on the debate stage.

Joining me now MSNBC political analyst Michael Steele who, as RNC
chairman, used to be very involved in these kinds of decisions, MSNBC
contributor Sam Seder host of the Majority Report, of course both
competitors in our 2016 Fantasy Candidate Draft.

All right, Michael, this is a real problem. How -- if you -- and I
should be clear that the first debate I believe is Fox and they actually
are the ones that end up making the call. But put yourself either in their
shoes or Reince Priebus`s shoes, how would you make the cut-off?

MICHAEL STEELE, FRM. RNC CHAIRMAN: You don`t make the cut-off. You
cannot make the cut-off in the first debate given that the margin -- or
difference between the person at the bottom and the person at the top can
arguably be somewhere between seven, maybe eight points depending on the
poll.

So, you want to devise a system that allows everyone at least that
first shot out of the box to have -- to be a part of the conversation.
This is something we tried to do when we changed the rules back in 2010 for
the 2012 race to allow more
candidates who didn`t have the cash to still be able to play.

So I think the opportunity here is maybe look at restructuring outside
of the traditional debate format and debate style where you get 30 second
for this and 20 seconds rebuttal and all of that craziness, just have an
open conversation to -- I mean seriously, because otherwise...

HAYES: It`s going to look like...

STEELE: You`re not going cut Carly Fiorina off the stage. You`re
just now. I understand what Spitzer is saying, but guess what, you`re
going to have a gender
requirement here, folks.

HAYES: That is -- I think Michael Steele speaks truth, Sam.

SAM SEDER, HOST, MAJORITY REPORT: Yeah, I think there`s probably
like, I don`t know, 30 or 40 Republican staffers trying to reverse engineer
this thing. They`ve got a list of people and they`re trying...

HAYES: That`s the funny thing, it`s coming...

SEDER: Wouldn`t you say, okay, nobody whose last name doesn`t start
with an "F" and everybody who is over 5`7".

I mean, look...

HAYES: Because let me stop you there for one second. The point is
look at the polling, right? Usually the thing that uses polling, but you
can`t use the polling there.

SEDER: Right. And they`re talking about using cash. You can`t use
cash.

HAYES: Right, that`s even more. That gets even more obscene, right.

SEDER: I mean, you know, first come, first serve? I don`t know...

HAYES: Maybe you do the thing like they do for school sign-up in New
York City. Midnight there`s a deadline and like nervous parents are there
at 11:59 in front of their computers hitting refresh. Maybe you just do
that.

SEDER: Well, just say, look, we`re going to give 500 grand to the
first five people who drop out.

(LAUGHTER)

SEDER: I mean, honestly like I don`t...

HAYES: You`re like an airline.

STEELE: We`re going to pay you not to run.

SEDER: They`re going to have to have more debates. They`re honestly
going to have to have more debates. And I wouldn`t be surprised if they
figure out like let`s draw lots. We have a squad "A" and squad "B" and
we`re just going to do two different debates.

HAYES: Michael, I actually there is -- I think actually not a
terrible idea. If you`re trying about, OK, we`re not going to cap it,
because I think you`re right. I think trying to cap it is very hard to
see...

STEELE: It`s a problem.

HAYES: Yeah, it`s a real problem, particularly a problem because of
the Fiorina problem, because she`s not going to be -- she`s going to be
polling near the bottom. She would be someone that would be a natural
person to be on the wrong side of cut-off and yet....

STEELE: Well, you have got the Bobby Jindal and the Ben Carson
problem as well.

HAYES: That`s right. Although Ben Carson -- let`s just be clear,
Ben Carson, if you just did a polling cut-off is going to be in the clear.
Ben Carson is in the top of this field from a polling standpoint. Bobby
Jindal is more problematic.

But what do you think about that idea, if you split it up and you had
-- you just added more debate and you had like -- you know, you did it like
the NCAA, like you just had different mini brackets, right, so like there`s
a group of six.

STEELE: Yeah, I think you do -- you draw the short straws, and you
figure out who goes the first night, who goes the second night. I think at
least with the first debate, possibly the second debate that is the format.

The idea, though, of adding additional debates will obviously have to
be in play, because this is the bottom line if I still have money and I`m
still arguably in this fight I`m just going to find some place else to have
a debate.

Now, the RNC wants to control that by penalizing you with your
delegates and the like, but you know if I wind up getting the nomination,
guess what I`m going to have all of my delegates seated.

HAYES: Right, right.

SEDER: And the thing is that there is going to be a lot more people
who are going to have a lot more money to go through this thing, because I
think there are going to be a lot more billionaires who are just going to
pay to have an advertiser out there talking about their one topic.

I mean, you know, I think that`s why Pete Peterson is like helpful
with Christie. Just talk about cutting Social Security. I know you don`t
have a chance to win.

HAYES: It`s genuinely useful, right. I mean, at no period is there
more
attention being paid to politics, being paid to issues than this moment at
these
debates. If you get someone who picks up your cause.

SEDER: Well, you`re already paying for ad campaigns anyway. Why not
have a spokesperson out on the campaign trail. And then, also, I`m
convinced that more people who actually enter this race, it will actually
end up having more people -- because now the costs of losing are much less
because you`re one of literally 15 people.

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: So you`re not the focused loser.

HAYES: So, you think there`s actually a kind of tipping point in the
direction of more people getting in? The more people getting in, the
more...

SEDER: This is like the California recall.

HAYES: Yeah, you think -- that`s a great point.

Michael, do you think that`s true?

STEELE; Yeah. There`s no downside to getting in. In fact,
gentlemen, I think we should go ahead and get our super PAC and get
started, because this is where we are. This is the new...

HAYES: Michael, you would be a -- Sam, I don`t know how well he would
do, frankly, in the Republican primary -- nothing against Sam.

SEDER: It would help my podcast.

HAYES: Like that`s a Minority Report...

SEDER: Majority.

HAYES: Right, Majority Report. Yeah, you`ll probably get it right
when he actually advertises his podcast.

So, here`s another problem with the polling, right is that the polling
this early is basically nonsense and will be for a long time.

Here`s polling on Republican primary voters favorable and non-
favorable opinions of Emily Farris, OK, this was included in a public
policy polling did this. Emily Farris doesn`t exist. I mean, I`m sure
there`s a person named Emily Farris, but 20 percent view her unfavorably
because people are just answering things because there`s so many names
floating around that the polling is essentially meaningless this early on.

SEDER: Yeah. I think that`s the thing, there`s really going to be no
-- there`s no objective way of doing this. And so I think they`re going to
have to add more debates.

HAYES: Yeah. Well, Michael Steele, interesting that you say that`s
ultimately going to be what`s, and the other important point that Michael
you made also is the rules matter less than the power of who is winning or
who is going to be behind it, right. The rules are -- they`re just the
dressing that we put on power.

All right, Michael Steele and Sam Seder of the Majority Report, the
Majority Report.

SEDER: That`s right.

HAYES: Listen to it, which is a great podcast.

That is All In for this evening. Rachel Maddow show starts now. Good
evening, Rachel.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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