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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, June 4th, 2015

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Date: June 4, 2015
Guest: Evan Smith, Robert Knake, Gail Satlz, Matthew Breen, MyrnaPerez,
David Feige


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --


HAYES: Rick Perry returns.

PERRY: It`s not what you say, it is what you have done.


HAYES: A campaign announcement sweatier than a Vikram yoga class,
Rick Perry announces a second run for president. Tonight, why this time
could be different.

Then, Hillary Clinton goes to war for early voting.

about a phantom epidemic of election fraud.

HAYES: Plus, the Mississippi family facing arrest for cheering at a
high school graduation.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did it, baby!

HAYES: The troubling takeaway from the FOX News Duggar interview.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Again, this was not rape or anything like that.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

And Rick Perry is back.


PERRY: Each day, Americans demonstrate tremendous courage. But many
of those Americans have been knocked down and they`re looking for a second

Let`s give them that second chance. Let`s give them real leadership.
Let`s give them a future greater than the greatest days of our past.

Let`s give them a president who leads us in the direction of our
highest dreams.


HAYES: The former Texas governor entered the Republican presidential
race today inside a sweltering airplane hangar outside Dallas, making the
announcement in front of a C-130 plane, similar to the one he flew as an
Air Force pilot in the 1970s emblazoned with the words "Perry for

He was surrounded by military veterans and their families including
Navy SEALs Marcus and Morgan Luttrell, who flanked Perry during his
remarks, as well as Taya Kyle, the widow of American sniper Chris Kyle.

Many in the crowd wore cowboy hats, though Perry himself has exchanged
his cowboy boots for black loafers, now sport thick, black glasses, unlike
in his 2012 presidential campaign. This time around, Perry even has his
own country rap theme song. We`ve dropped the lyrics so you can karaoke at


PERRY: Thank you, and God bless you.


RAP SONG: Rick Perry supporter, let`s protect our border, to hell
with anyone who don`t believe in a USA, Rick Perry all the way


HAYES: It`s easy to forget how strong Perry came out of the gate in
his 2012 presidential run. Long-time governor of a large state with strong
job growth and support from both the monied establishment and GOP base,
Perry zoomed to the front of the pack for the nomination in August, 2011,
polling far ahead of Mitt Romney.

But he put in by all accounts a terrible performance as a candidate
which culminated in an iconic debate moment.


PERRY: It`s three agencies of government when I get there that are
gone. Commerce, Education, and the -- what`s the third one there?

MODERATOR: You can`t name the third one?

PERRY: The third agency of government? I would -- I would do away
with the Education, the --



PERRY: Commerce.

And let`s see --


PERRY: I can`t -- third one I can`t. Sorry. Oops.


HAYES: This time around, Perry -- oh, my god, that tape -- Perry has
to contend with the memories of his disastrous 2012 performance as well as
a controversial indictment, his home state that could require him to leave
the campaign trail to head to a Texas court.

Joining me now from Dallas, MSNBC political correspondent Kasie Hunt,
who is at Rick Perry`s announcement today.

And, Kasie, I got to say from that sort of stage craft perspective, it
seemed the event came off pretty well -- the sweltering heat and sweatiness

KASIE HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: The sweltering heat and sweatiness
aside, yes, Chris. I think they tried to be prepared for how hot it was
going to be. They had several giant air conditioners in the back, but they
weren`t getting the job done. They did hand attendees some fans, "Perry
for president." As you could see, Perry sort hear to sweat it out front
and center for everyone.

But other than that, one of the more dramatic backdrops we`ve seen for
something like this -- and a heavy focus on that military biography.
That`s something that is new for his 2016 bid from 2012. He obviously
mentioned that he was a veteran quite a bit in the last campaign. It
wasn`t really a centerpiece.

He does really have an authentic connection to many of those military
veterans who were standing up on stage with him tonight. Marcus Luttrell -
- excuse me, this afternoon. Marcus Luttrell, one of them. He actually
lived with Governor Perry and Anita Perry at the governor`s mansion as he
was coming back from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.

HAYES: Yes, it really did strike me that whereas the sort of lead
message of Governor Perry the last time around was about the Texas miracle,
so-called Texas miracle, about Texas` economic performance, this much more
focused on foreign policy, on the military and veterans, his own record as
a veteran, veterans up on stage.

That was not -- I mean, it really was not the sort of front and center
lead branding for the Perry campaign in 2012.

HUNT: Well, Chris, I think it reflects a broader shift, as well. I
think that was something that applied to much of the Republican field. You
had obviously Mitt Romney, the ultimate nominee, running on economic
issues. That`s much of what the country was focused on at the time. I
think it really highlights how the issues have shifted.

I think that, you know, ISIS has become front and center in this
campaign, talking about President Obama`s foreign policy, what Republicans
perceive to be weakness on that front. And I think that the Perry campaign
sees an opening here. I mean, there aren`t very many military veterans for
a country that had elected military veterans as president for years and
years basically up until Bill Clinton and President Obama.

You know, this -- this is a field that`s devoid largely of military
experience. Perry and Senator Graham are the only two.

HAYES: Governor Perry should talk to President John Kerry, about the
-- how well that necessarily works.

Kasie Hunt, thank you very much.

HUNT: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Joining me now from Austin is Evan Smith, CEO and editor-in-
chief of "The Texas Tribune."

So, Evan, you know, we were going back to the 2012 -- we were sort of
following the clippings of the 2012 incredible rise and fall of Governor
Rick Perry as presidential candidate. What -- why was that such a
disaster, and what should lead anyone to believe that disaster will not be
repeated once he`s off prompter, knocking off prepared speech, and having
to do the kinds of things that he proved himself essentially incapable of
doing on the trail last time around?

EVAN SMITH, THE TEXAS TRIBUNE: Well, the two big issues in the last
election were that his health and preparedness was not good. Beyond that,
it went perfectly.

His record, as you said, as governor of Texas, the economic record
particularly was really very strong. And a lot of us thoughts that`s going
to be enough to carry him to the top of the pack, but he blew it.

In a lot of ways, the bigger problem was he blew it in what was a weak
field. And his big challenge in this election, Chris, I would say is not
simply being better prepared and more healthy, but realizing that in a
field of 15 or 20 Republicans, even the worst of whom is better than some
of best last time, he`s going to have to figure out how to stand out.

The veterans thing today was one thing. And I -- I would agree with
you, it was definitely interesting to see that as the focus of his speech
today. But he really needs to differentiate himself from a lot of the
people in Washington. He started to do that some today by highlighting his
executive experience as opposed to their speech making on the floor of the
Senate. That`s going to be, I think, a big feature of his campaign.

HAYES: Here`s the section of the speech when he calls out senators
for making speeches as opposed to his record. Take a listen.


PERRY: Will be this -- when have you led? Leadership is not a speech
on the Senate floor, it`s not what you say. It is what you have done.


HAYES: Now, the issue here which I think is pretty interesting -- two
things have come together. One, Kasie, alluded to -- I think the bite of
the economic issues for the Republican Party has diminished considerably
due to the performance of the economy. And due, frankly, to the fact that
they kind of got their way on the deficit and austerity for a while, and
that`s been taken away from them in some ways.

Perry harped on it today, but it just doesn`t poll or sort of charge
voters the way it, did say, in 2010, particularly. The other so-called
Texas miracle looks a little shakier. These are a few headlines. The
Texas economic hiccup complicates Rick Perry`s 2016 pitch. They lost more
than 25,000 jobs in March, according to state figures.

So, it does seem like that`s going to be there complicating for him in
terms of making the case about his record.

SMITH: Well, in fact, that March jobs number was the first negative
jobs number in 53 months in Texas.

Look, Texas survived the recession, a lot of you and the rest of the
country. We here in Texas survived as well as we did in part because of
the strength of the oil and gas economy.

HAYES: Right.

SMITH: And since oil and gas has been a little bit on the downturn,
we suffer. We benefit in good times and suffer in bad times.

Look, a president has to preside over among other things the economy.
One of the knocks against President Obama was he didn`t have any experience
running anything. And so, when it came time to -- to steady the economy in
bad times, he didn`t really have the chops to do.

And Perry`s going argue, look, 15 years, almost 15 years as governor,
the net job growth in Texas exceeded the other 49 states combined. You, by
the way, hear Jeb Bush talking about his record of creating jobs in
Florida, as well. So, I think we`re going to not hear Perry talk about

The biggest challenge as you talked about earlier is people have got
to forget about what happened in 2012. Perry said today that the most
optimistic person on Earth is the dry land cotton farmer. No, the most
optimistic person on Earth is somebody who wants to run for president again
after pratfalling the way he did last time.

He really is going to have to figure out how to have a second chance
to make a first impression. And if he can`t do that, none of the rest of
this stuff matter.

HAYES: Yes. There`s going to be scrutiny up front. The next time we
have on you, I want to talk about the sort of scuttlebutt I heard about the
war between the Cruz and Perry camps behind the scenes in Texas, just the
sort of fascinating Texas Republican politics scuttlebutt.

We`ll talk about that next time. Evan Smith, thank you very much.

SMITH: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: Rick Perry is the 10th major Republican candidate in the GOP
presidential race. And there are plenty more coming.

To participate in the first GOP debate on FOX News in August, a
candidate needs to be in the top ten in polling. Right now, Perry just
makes the cut, polling in 10th place in the Real Clear Politics average
with 3 percent support.

Joining me now, a man whom I bet -- I bet you could get 3 percent in a
national poll, MSNBC contributor -- I believe it -- Sam Seder, host of "The
Majority Report."

SAM SEDER, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: I may throw my hat in the ring.

HAYES: This is --I mean, Kasie alluded to it. Let`s remember the
value proposition of the Rick Perry campaign back in 2012 which was kind of
great. It was basically you`ve got Mitt Romney and the base doesn`t like

You`ve got a bunch of people that base loved like Michele Bachmann,
Herman Cain, who are just implausible nominees, and Rick Perry was like,
I`m the guy, I`m the Venn diagram intersection. Here I am. Everyone was
really excited.

SEDER: Right. And now, he is like number three in all of those

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: Except in -- I think that`s why we saw the sort of promotion
the his military record, except in that one area. I mean, he has --
there`s no other governor who can -- who has his military service. And
that`s basically -- you know, when you`re talking about a race, there could
well be 15 people, 16, maybe 20 people in the race. And no joke --

HAYES: I can`t believe we`re at ten already!

SEDER: And -- I think that like there`s -- there`s still a couple of
people who we don`t even know their names yet. They`re actually
considering to jump in. Once -- more do and I think we`re going to see
like Donald Trump, I think that`s possible. We`re going to see --

HAYES: Do you really think that will happen?

SEDER: I actually -- I actually do. I do think this is one of those
situations where there is, you know, this is like the California recall.
We`ve talked about it.

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: He, I think, is pushing the military experience as a way of
differentiating himself. But the glass is at one point someone`s going to
say, I want to see your prescription.

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: You know, show it to us, because that is such a sort of naked
attempt to get people to forget --

HAYES: You`re talking about the pain medication in 2012?

SEDER: I`m talking about the glasses he`s wearing.

HAYES: Oh, the glasses!


SEDER: And the attempt to get away from governor oops, I mean,

HAYES: Right. You think that what`s it`s about?

SEDER: I mean, I definitely think they`re trying to project this was
not the goofball who was on that stage. Now, there may have been other
reasons why he forgot that. There were rumors --

HAYES: He was in pain medication, that back pain, yes.


SEDER: Nevertheless, when you want to get rid of three government
agencies and you can`t name them, people think that maybe your policy
prescriptions are insincere. You know, I mean --


HAYES: Why would they think that?

SEDER: Well, I mean, all it`s going to take, is you know during that
debate, if he`s there, and he tries to land a punch, someone will land a
punch and say "oops," and the entire crowd is going to laugh, and you`re
right back in that moment.

HAYES: Right. No. The other issue that he has, you`ve got this
fascinating big state dynamic emerging now with the Florida battle for
Florida donors and Florida allegiance between Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio
considered top tier candidates. And in Texas, you`ve got Ted Cruz and
Governor Rick Perry. And -- remember --

SEDER: And Jeb Bush was involved in Texas to a certain extent,
because that`s his family.

HAYES: That`s exactly right. People fund-raise from their geographic
base. If you ever had the experience as a political reporter of combing
through disclosures of someone fund-raising, they start close to home.
Literally, it`s the neighbors --

SEDER: That`s where they started.

HAYES: That`s going to be a brutal "Game of Throne-esque" war for
those fundraising dollars in just the state of Texas, just between those,
those two guys and then the Bush family.

SEDER: Everyone`s got to run around and look for their billionaire.
Nobody wants to be the one left without sort of the chair when the music
stops. And frankly, I think that`s -- you know, in some ways, it`s
interesting the way that it`s impacting our politics. I think a lot of
what we saw the past couple of weeks was a function of him striking out
with a lot of billionaires. And finding another way to raise money, and to
a certain extent, that was helpful in terms of our politics.

HAYES: There`s an interesting -- there`s always an idea that
governors have a better shot, they don`t have a voting record. You`ve got
a lot of senators who are running, 5 percent, one of 20 senators running,
but it also occurs to me that it`s a lot easier to command national
attention from the Senate in this crowded field than an ex-governor. I
mean, that`s the problem that Perry really faces is he can`t -- it`s hard
for him to make news.

SEDER: Yes. And he`s been out of politics for a while, right?

HAYES: Right.

SEDER: So --

HAYES: Not as long as Jeb Bush.

SEDER: Right, not as long as Jeb Bush, I think that`s a handicap for
Jeb Bush, as well. At times he`s rusty. I think you`re right. If you`re
a senator, you`re basically double dipping. You`ve got the people covering
the campaign, and you`ve got the people in Washington in terms of your
outlets to get your earned media.

HAYES: All right. Sam Seder, thank you very much. You`ve got a good
long-term prospect in the leader board, fantasy draft. But right now, I
think you`re third or fourth.

SEDER: I`m not worried.

HAYES: With Rick Perry now officially joining the presidential race.

It`s time for an update of the ALL IN 2016 candidate draft. First, a
reminder of the moment Rick Perry got picked.


the lowest number on the board strategy to -- you know, to explain my --

HAYES: Another prime number.

REID: Yes.

HAYES: Three. Will it deliver for Joy? Rick Perry!

ANNOUNCER: Rick Perry. He`s got three good reasons to run, but can
only remember two.

PERRY: Oh, what`s the third one there? Let`s see.


ANNOUNCER: The former governor of the Lone Star State is back. But
this time, he`s got four eyes on the prize.

PERRY: Today has been awesome, girl!

ANNOUNCER: He`s former Texas Governor Rick Perry!


HAYES: Oh, we`re pretty happy with our four eyes on the prize line
there. That excellent pick by joy Reid means she`s up to 300 points on the
board. Second only to Michael Steele right now. But, of course, there are
many more potential candidates still dragging their feet on declaring.

We`ve got an update on one of the most egregious of those, next.


HAYES: Never let it be said that ALL IN doesn`t get results. Think
of us as ALL IN on your side.

Last night, we brought you the story of Jeb Bush`s long period of
presidential exploration was possibly in flagrant violation of campaign
finance law. The laws might classify him as a candidate with the attendant
rules and laws of being a candidate despite the fact he has not yet
declared officially his actual candidacy. Paul S. Ryan of the Campaign
Legal Center, a campaign finance watchdog group, explained this to us last
night. His group filed complaints charging Bush with violations of federal
election law.

Well, today, less than 24 hours after our segment aired, came the news
that Bush will put an end to the ruse and announce his presidential bid on
June 15th in Miami. The official word from the spokeswoman is that he,
quote, "looks forward to announcing his decision on that day."

But no one doubts what that decision will be. The announcement will
come after Bush makes a week-long trip to Europe.

So there you have. It Bush will announce his presidential bid. We
here at ALL IN, we get results.


HAYES: The federal government has suffered a massive data breach,
possibly the biggest invasion of government data in U.S. history. NBC News
chief foreign affairs correspondent, Andrea Mitchell, has the latest.


over): Officials say this could be the biggest cyberattack in American
history. The culprit, they say, China. As many as 4 million current and
former government employees have been told their personal information
including names, Social Security numbers, and birthdays could have been
hacked from the Office of Personnel Management -- the agency that screens
and hires federal workers and does security clearances for 90 percent of
the federal government.

Tonight, the Obama administration is scrambling to assess the damage
and warning millions of government employees that they should monitor their
bank accounts and will get government help with credit reports and identity
theft insurance.

Officials also tell NBC News the data breach involved a never-before-
seen cyber-indicator and could potentially affect every federal agency.

The FBI is investigating, but in the past cyber-attacks from China
have come from this Chinese army building in Shanghai. This comes after
last year`s suspected North Korean attack on Sony and reports that Russia
had hacked the White House, State Department, and IRS, including President
Obama`s e-mails. Today, before this cyberattack was disclosed,
intelligence committee member Senator Ron Wyden told NBC News --

SEN. RON WYDEN (D), OREGON: I continue to feel that it is very
important that we ramp up our effort to go after foreign hackers and
foreign threats.

MTICHELL (on camera): U.S. officials say that this breach is serious,
but it could not be the worst case scenario they hope. That would involve
the disclosure of the identities of the CIA`s covert agents. So far at
least, they do not think the CIA covers have been blown. So far, the
Chinese embassy has not responded to our calls about the hacking.


HAYES: As Andrea Mitchell reporting, joining me now by phone, Robert
Knake, he`s senior fellow for cybersecurity at the Council on Foreign
Relations, the former director of cybersecurity policy at the National
Security Council at the White House.

Robert, can you tell me, first of all, how -- how big a deal this is,
and how would you know how big a deal it is, forensically?

think this is actually that much a bigger deal than the breaches at Anthem,
Carefirst, and other commercial providers that have lost similar
information. This information is actually no different than the kind of
credit identity information that`s been stolen by criminal groups over the
last year.

What`s going on now in terms of forensics is a process that is
probably nowhere near finished trying to take the indicators that were
pulled from this breach investigation and trying to figure out who may have
been behind it. But at this point, figuring out the severity of the breach
is something that OBM can`t do yet. What they`ve said is that it`s
possible up to 4 million people may have had this information taken. But
they don`t in fact know yet whether that has happened.

HAYES: So, there`s sort of different end goals one can imagine with
hackers breaking into information. What you said just at the top there
sounds like if this is personal information, what would -- what would be
the end goal here? What would be the reason to acquire this information?

KNAKE: The reason you`d want this kind of information is to commit
fraud, to commit tax fraud, insurance fraud, or credit card fraud. It`s
the kind of information that really is going to be most valuable when
applied to a criminal enterprise. Its intelligence value is worth less. A
secondary thing you might do with this information is try and use it to
gain other accounts. To use it, for instance, to reset passwords that
might ask, for instance, where you were born, what your birthday is -- that
kind of information could be used to gain secondary account. But the value
for that is less than it would be for fraud.

HAYES: It seems the default assumption in these cases is to look
toward China, sometimes to look toward Russia. Is that justified based on
your experience, or are we seeing a proliferation across the world of these
kinds of activities?

KNAKE: Yes. I`m skeptical of the claim that this is known to be
Chinese government officials, Chinese government-sanctioned action.
Doesn`t seem like a worthwhile target for an intelligence agency. It
doesn`t seem like something that a Chinese military agency would want to
waste vulnerability going after. It`s not intelligence information. It`s
useful for trade. It`s not intellectual property.

So, I think there`s a rush to jump and say it`s China, but I`m
skeptical of the voracity of the claims that government officials created
that. That`s not an official U.S. government position.

HAYES: Robert Knake, former director of cyberspace at the NSC, thank
you very much.

KNAKE: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Still ahead, Hillary Clinton, the Democrats
declare war on voter suppression and litigation as a weapon of choice. The
details on that bold move, next.



CLINTON: Today, Republicans are systematically and deliberately
trying to stop millions of American citizens from voting. What part of
democracy are they afraid of? I believe every citizen has the right to
vote, and I believe we should do everything we can to make it easier for
every citizen to vote.



HAYES: Hillary Clinton delivered a fiery speech today to Texas
Southern University, historically black school in Houston, calling for at
least 20 days of early voting in every date.

Texas is now at the epicenter of the country`s ongoing battles over
voting rights. Four years after becoming law, the state`s voter ID rules,
which are some of the strictest in the nation, are under review by the
fifth circuit court of appeals. The Supreme Court just decided last week
to hear a conservative challenge to Texas` redistricting plan.

Meanwhile, the Clinton campaign and its allies have already fired the
opening shots in what promises to be a very aggressive, perhaps
unpecedentedly aggressive, legal strategy against voting restrictions

A lawyer whose clients include the Clinton campaign filed lawsuits
last month in Ohio and Wisconsin, two key presidential battlegrounds

The New York Times reports that Georgia, Nevada and Virginia could be

Joining me now, Myrna Perez, deputy director of Democracy Program at
the Brendan Center for Justice. Brendan Center has done a lot of
litigation around these issues. You`re from San Antonio, Texas.


HAYES: Which in Texas really is the battleground now. She went down

Before we get to the litigation, the Clinton laid out a real policy
today on voting access that the most radical far-reaching sweeping sort of
expansion of the ease of the franchise that I`ve heard from a major

PEREZ: Right, no, it was really exciting because for many years, you
and other reporters and the Brendan Center have been indicating that we are
in the middle of a war on voting. This used to be a bipartisan issue where
it was agreed people should have free and fair access to the election
system, but in 2010 we saw that dramatically change.

And it`s really encouraging to see a politician of a very high stature
say enough. We are not going to put unnecessarily barriers in front of the
ballot box and all politicians should be saying things like that.

HAYES: And not just we shouldn`t be putting barriers, we should be
expanding. 20 days of early voting across the nation, talked about
Oregon`s automatic voter registration. And she said that`s a model policy.
I mean, this would pretty profoundly change the franchise in America were
we to see this happen across the country.

PEREZ: Right. One of the things that we have been advocating for at
the Brendan Center for years is something called voter registration
modernization, which is a way of trying to get all people who are not
registered on the rolls. And Hillary Clinton endorsed such a proposal.
She wants to have a policy such that if you`re eligible and if you`re
American, you are getting on the rolls and it would -- the important
concept is the idea of shifting the burden to the government to get people
registered to vote instead of putting all these hoops in front of people to
be able to register.

HAYES: So, now we get to this -- what I think is going to be one of
the most
fascinating dramatic high stakes subtexts of this election, which is going
to be the litigation battle over individual states laws particularly at a
time when the
Voting Rights Act, key provisions of which have been rendered essentially

So, it`s going to be up to the campaigns in a lot of ways, either the
Department of Justice or the campaigns to be the plaintiffs in the
lawsuits, right?

PEREZ: Well, there is a lot of private parties. For example, we
represent the Texas NAACP and the Mexican-American Legislative Caucus in
the Texas...

HAYES: In the suit in Texas.

PEREZ: In Texas, right.

So, we need voter advocates out there making sure that unnecessary
restrictions to the ballot box are pushed back. It is a risky move given
the court did to the preclearance provision and what the court did right
before the elections allowing certain restrictive laws like the one that
happened in Texas and the one in Ohio to go forward for the 2014 elections.

HAYES: The Supreme Court did that. They refused to step in and say
actually you can`t put these into operation before election until we`ve had
a chance to hear
whether these are actually constitutional.

PEREZ: Right. And the Texas case, we feel like we`re on very strong
ground because we found a finding of discriminatory intent, which means
that the legislature was purposely trying to discriminate against minority

But at a time when it`s not clear that the Supreme Court will always
step in to protect voters to have these lawsuits out there create -- you
know, it`s going to create something to watch. It`s to create something
for people to be paying attention to

HAYES: And it`s also to going to create this succession of sort of
high stakes down to the wire battles because what you get when you are
litigate under active campaign are last-minute motions for changes,
injunctions, those get appealed up, right? Because you can`t turn back the
clock, right? So having this, you know, having a litigation battle over
voting restrictions in 2015 is very different than having a litigation
battle over voting restrictions in say September 2016, which is what we`re
going to see.

PEREZ: Well, the hope in the Texas case at least is that it will be
resolved before then, because it is at the appellate stage. The Fifth
Circuit certainly knows what kind of the clock we`re talking about.

There are almost always elections, so -- and you`re entirely right
that once an election happens and you`re disenfranchised, you can`t undo

So, it`s really important that voters are able to have free and fair
access to the ballot box and we need to make sure that all politicians are
talking about how to implement common sense reforms to make sure it`s
easier for people to vote.

PEREZ: All right. Myrna Perez, thank you so much.

PEREZ: Thank you.

HAYES: Up next, why people who cheered during a graduation
celebration are NOW facing jail time. and later, the incredible details
from the Duggar family
interview. We`ll be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did it, baby.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He said you did it baby and waved his towel and
went out the door.


HAYES: OK. A high school graduation in Mississippi has for all
intents and purposes turned into a crime scene. At least three people are
facing disturbing the peace charges and possible $500 fines and six months
in jail after, get this, cheering on a family member after her name was
called at the Senatobia High School graduation last month.

According to the New York Times one woman, Ursula Miller, was charged
yelling and clapping while inside the building after an announcement had
made for all to hold applause in celebrating until after the end of the

Her loud, boisterous noise, the affidavit said, was against the peace
and dignity of the state of Mississippi.

Jay Foster, the Senatobia school superintendent said that not only did
he tell the graduation crowd before the ceremony to hold their applause
until the end, but that there was a warning in the graduation program,
which was obtained by the NBC affiliate in Memphis. It reads in part,
quote, persons responsible for any disruption by loud cheers, shouting, or
the use of noise makers may be promptly escorted from the coliseum.


LINDA WALKER, MOTHER OF GRADUATE: When a child do all they can to
graduate, it`s an honor and a privilege for them to walk that stage. It`s
privilege for me to clap and applaud for mine. I kept quiet. I let my son
and them did it because they are younger. I was crying, because I was so
happy for her.


HAYES: Foster told a local paper The Clarion-Ledger, that there were
four people who disturbed the ceremony. He was able to get the names of
three of them and press charges, but still hasn`t been able to identify the


message that everybody desires a right to hear their child`s name called,
see their child walk across stage. We`re talking about a ceremony that
lasts about 55 minutes to an hour.


HAYES: Joining me now, David Feige, former public defender and
professor at the National Criminal Defense College.

All right, I want to play this one more time just so we can watch the
crime/ And a warning to viewers, this is graphic, OK. If you have young
children around, you may want to shield their eyes, take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did it, baby!


HENRY WALKER: To think that I might have to bail out of jail, or pay
court costs or a $500 fine to express my love is ridiculous, man, it`s just



HAYES: Are you kidding me?

FEIGE: It`s ridiculous, but not even that surprising.

HAYES: Not that surprising.

FEIGE: Well, it is and isn`t. I mean, obviously the application of
this absurd law to this absurd situation is in a way surprising, but it`s
completely indicative of way, way larger problem.

HAYES: And what is that problem?

FEIGE: I would say this, that at this point our laws, our criminal
laws, are so vast, they cover such an extraordinary expanse and the
definitions are so elastic, that we can essentially criminalize everything.

HAYES: First of all, let me just say this, I`ve been to some
graduation in my day, this is how every graduation...

FEIGE: Well, I hope you didn`t say a word.

HAYES: Well, this is how every graduation I`ve ever gone to has gone,
been this way, administrator gets up very sternly and says for the sake of
everyone, please hold your applause until all the names have been read.
Everyone nods yes.

Three kids in, everyone is cheering after every one, because no can
help themselves.

FEIGE: Cheer for everyone. It`s wonderful.

HAYES: So, this to me is a key point, right, this wasn`t unlawful
behavior, this was disorderly behavior in the eyes of the superintendent.
And the key is that the law allows people in power to essentially prosecute
violations of order as violations of law.

FEIGE: that`s exactly right.

And that is in a way, right, the krill of the criminal justice system.
It`s just omnipresent, it`s everywhere and you can just find it pretty much
wherever you want to look. The question is where do you look? And it`s in
that use of discretion that I think people find discriminatory policing and
things that upset them.

HAYES: Let me just read you offenses against public order here in New
York that just sort of serve -- disorderly conduct, unlawful assembly,
loitering, criminal nuisance in the second degree and harassment in the
second degree.

I mean, the point is that if a police officer or some force of the law
wants to say that you are breaking the law in a given circumstance, there
is no -- they will be able to do so. The criminal code exists to give them
the ability to do that.

FEIGE: But it -- and let`s just speak about New York, because as you
know, I have a bunch of years of experience in the system here. Not only
can they, they do. And it is utterly shocking.

You can go to arraignments pretty much tonight from here. We can walk
down to criminal court arraignments and you can find people charged with
disorderly conduct. And it is one the things, I`ll tell you what it
accompanies all the time, it accompanies assault on police officer cases,
resisting arrest cases, obstructing governmental administration cases.
You`d be amazed at how quickly a violation of public order materializes.

HAYES: And those are -- those tend to be cases of people essentially
mouthy, being loud and disruptive, right.

FEIGE: Or cheering for their kid as they graduate. It`s whatever you
want it to be in a certain way.

HAYES; There is obvious I think racial subtext here, which we should
note, right, which is like this is a white superintendent. This is in
Mississippi. This is a town that is...

FEIGE: A place of great dignity.

HAYES: Yes, that does not like to have their peace offended. This is
the superintendent was -- my point is not that I want to pay money, but I
want them to know there are consequences for their behavior -- stern
father-figure here -- and I want us to have a dignified service.

FEIGE: OK. Well, I`m all for the dignified -- actually, I`m not even
for the dignified service, I`m for the enthusiastic congratulatory service.

HAYES: I`m from the Bronx, people cheer in the Bronx.

FEIGE: But let`s talk about the other bit of this, which is bonding
out of jail and the $500 that it costs to secure your freedom after
violating the dignity and public order of the state of Mississippi.

HAYES: There was just a survey about -- something like half of
American households can`t come up with $500.

FEIGE: Well, what is amazing is -- and that`s right -- and tonight,
tonight, at Riker`s Island, there are 1,000 or so people sleeping at
Riker`s Island pretrial, convicted of nothing because they cannot come up
with $500 bail.

HAYES: David Feige, always a pleasure, thank you for joining us.

FEIGE: My pleasure.

HAYES: All right, still ahead tonight, we take a look at what exactly
was revealed in the first post scandal Duggar family interview.


HAYES: While public sector unions have withered under attacks from
the right over the past few years, a whole different segment of the economy
may now offer hope to this country`s struggling labor movement: online

Editorial employees at Gawker media, which runs websites like Jezebel,
Daedspin and Gizmoto, just voted to join the Writers Guild of America
making Gawker the first ever digital media company to organize its labor

It`s nothing short of a landslide with 75 percent of the Gawker
employees who voted opting to join the guild for the purpose of collective

In a post that went up this morning, Gawker staff said the next steps
will be, quote, determining what we want to bargain for, forming a
bargaining commit, and negotiating a contract. We are unionized.


HAYES: The first time since acknowledging that their son Josh Duggar
made what they call some very bad mistakes as a young teenager, his parents
are speaking out on television.

Last night, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar took to the friendly outlet of
Fox News to tell their story.


MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Did he explain why? I mean, was
that a question that you asked?

JIM BOB DUGGAR, FATHER: He said he was curious about girls and he had
gone in and just basically touched them over their clothes when they were
sleeping. They didn`t know he had done it.

MICHELLE DUGGAR, MOTHER: It was so important for us as parents to
talk to our girls and make sure that nothing else had happened and so...

KELLY: And what did they say?

MICHELLE DUGGAR: Well, one by one, as we talked with them, none of
them were aware of Josh`s wrongdoings.

KELLY: So they learned about it from you?




HAYES: According to Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar they closely
monitored their son`s actions after he came forward the first time. They
did not at this point get him any professional help or contact authorities.


JIM BOB DUGGAR: We thought, you know, at first that Josh, you know,
was on the road to mend at first, but he was still a kid and he was still a

All these, again -- this was not rape or anything like that, this was
like touching somebody over their clothes.


HAYES: It was only at least two other incidents where Josh Duggar
told his parents he inappropriately touched two more of his sisters and a
non-family member that the family sought outside help.


JIM BOB DUGGAR: At that point that`s when we pulled him out of the
house and said he can`t be here. And so we pulled him out and he went
through that working with that man...

KELLY: Yes, he goes to the counseling.


KELLY: And then when he was done with the counseling -- this is not
like a licensed therapist, it`s somebody, a Christian-based...

JIM BOB DUGGAR: Christian-based, but I tell you what...

KELLY: Treatment facility.

JIM BOB DUGGAR: It really had a huge impact on his life. And it
really -- that was the turning point in his life. And this man really
reached his heart.


HAYES: After Josh Duggar returned from the Little Rock Christian-base
treatment facility, his parents say they brought him into the Arkansas
State Police headquarters where he spoke with the state trooper.

No charges were ever filed. The next year, the Duggars starred in
their first big national TV special. Today they sit atop one of the most
popular reality TV shows of our time.

Are there other ways the Duggars might have handled this situation?
We`ll talk about that next.


HAYES: All right, joining me now Dr. Gail Saltz, psychiatrist, and
Matthew Breen, editor-in-chief at The Advocate.

I`ve got to say, it was hard to not watch -- I mean, it was pretty
riveting this interview. It was upsetting. Reactions as a psychiatric

DR. GAIL SALTZ, PSYCHIATRIST: Yeah, I think you can stand in the
shoes and imagine that one of your children has done something horrible to
the other of your
children and you still love both your children and I think that came
through that you`re in a really terrible situation, but what was mystifying
is your reaction to handle that.

I think most people -- I would like to believe that most people
understand that that is abuse, and that abuse -- in a situation where one
of your children abused the other, they both need immediate mental health
intervention. That is just...

HAYES: Like we`re getting in the car right now, like I`m calling, I`m
finding the person, the mental health professional for each of these
children of mine.

SALTZ: Correct.

HAYES: The perpetrator and victim.


HAYES: And we`re going to go now.

MATTHEW BREEN, THE ADVOCATE: To, the bible-based home schooling
technique that they subscribe to.

HAYES: Which they did not get into in the interview.

BREEN: Which they did not discuss in the interview, true.

Suggest that you handle it at home and it has this long set of
worksheets about how do you determine the factors in the household or the
school that contributed to this abuse? Was there anything that the victim
did to provoke abuse? It`s this real blame the victim mentality that in
the context of this Quiverfull philosophy can be super isolating to the

SALTZ: Actually, worst than isolating, I think perpetuates guilt and
shame that is already a real issue for victims of abuse particularly sexual
abuse when they have no guilt that they often question themselves. Did I
do something?

And so to have your home schooling endorse that and to be also in a
family where the women, where the model is that the women are sort of there
to support the men, what choice do you have in forgiveness? Really? What
-- I mean, I...

BREEN: Support the men. All of the women support all of the men in
their lives, the older brother included.

SALTZ: That`s it. That`s it.

HAYES: And let`s also be clear here. I mean, whatever was like,
whatever was done initially was manifestly ineffective, because this
happened with five different individuals, right. So, the intervention --
now there are a lot of people I think when the story first broke who said
you should have called the cops. What do you think about that?

SALTZ: You know, I`m not a lawyer so I`m really not addressing the
legalese of this. I really think that the first thing you should do is get
mental health care and that also -- first of all, you have to understand
abuse, it`s really a
public health issue. It happens unfortunately often enough that it is.

HAYES: Incredibly widespread, often the majority of are either family
members or people in the close circle of the victim.

SALTZ: Correct.

And that`s why we have to understand that the first line people are
pediatricians, emergency room doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists,
because those are the people who are authorized to, and when they deem
correctly need to be reporting the family so that child protective services
can come in so that an objective third party can decide is it safe to have
these people together in the house?

And I think that the matters the most.

The question of, you know, should you be arrested and charged and so
on, you know, I think what is disconcerting about this particular case, and
I know the that the Duggars said differently, but the difference between 15
and 16-year-old and
molestation of a 5 or 6-year-old I think that`s splitting hairs and it
concerns me about issues of pedophilia. It does.

HAYES: I`ve also got to say that my other feeling watching this was
this happened the year before you go on television. I just, you know, the
year before you decided to -- you decided, you the adults decided to put
your minor children on
television, invite the world into your home, make your world public, open
them all up to prying eyes. You made that decision for your kids, you the
parents and you`re going to go on television and talk about how other
families are to be judged, how other families are less than.

SALTZ: This is a classic case of the psychological term called
splitting, which is you split off the urges that are occurring to you or to
your family of I want to do this heinous thing, you split off and say no, I
am not that at all. I am the opposite of that. I am the pillar of right
and moral and everything good, you know, think Mark Foley abuse children, I
protect them.

BREEN: Well, clearly the family used that to demonize others and they
been really virulent in terms of demonizing gay and lesbian parents via
Josh Duggar as executive director of the Family Research Council.

His job was to go around promoting junk science saying that gay and
lesbian parents could be child molesters...

HAYES: And a threat to children.

BREEN: And a threat to children, exactly.

In addition to that, the family inserted themselves into Arkansas
politics. In Fayetteville, Arkansas, when an LGBT civil rights ordnance
passed there, they got involved. They donated to the campaign to repeal
the ordnance.

Michelle Duggar got -- recorded a robocall that went to voters in the
area and said transgender people are going to molest your children, you
little girls, in bathrooms.

HAYES: And she did that again, let`s just be clear, she did that
knowing what had happened.

SALTZ: That`s why I say it is unconsciously about that, you know.
This isn`t my family. This didn`t happen to me. I`m going to -- it`s
those people. You`re all bad people, and I`m going to protect other people
from those bad people.

HAYES: It`s also to me what was so striking about this whole thing,
particularly the fact that it happened in the venue of Fox and it was a
very kind of empathetic interview is that like you know like Michael Brown
stole some cigarillos and he`s a thug and this young man molested five
different girls.

Now, I want to live in a world where we find humane compassionate
interventions for the victims and for this young man so that he can get
right and healthy and have a productive life and he shouldn`t be called and
thrown in the
scrap heap of the criminal justice system. He shouldn`t be, you know,
tossed out as someone who is irredeemable, but it`s just like this bubble
of compassion that
existed in that interview, it`s so constrained, right?

BREEN: Absolutely. It seems like you can`t have that sort of -- that
sort of intervention, that therapeutic intervention in an environment like
Quiverfull, or an environment like the school teaching program that they
use at home.

It doesn`t -- it doesn`t allow for any scrutiny from your community.

HAYES: Right, because it is fundamentally antagonistic to outsideness
because of the way it`s constructed.

Dr. Gail Saltz, Matthew Breen, thank you both for being here.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts now.


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