updated 6/8/2015 11:30:59 AM ET 2015-06-08T15:30:59

Show: HARDBALL
Date: June 5, 2015
Guest: Barney Frank, Matt Schlapp, Gregory Angelo, John Carney, Jonathan
Allen

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: A new charge against Speaker Hastert.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

A Montana woman has come forward today with new allegations of sexual
misconduct against former House speaker Dennis Hastert. Last week, Hastert
was indicted on charges he evaded federal banking laws to pay $3.5 million
to an unidentified man. Federal officials told NBC News that those
payments were made to conceal an illicit sexual relationship they had while
the man was a student at Yorkville High School in Illinois, where Hastert
was a teacher and wrestling coach.

Well, today Jolene Burdge has come forward with a second allegation of
sexual misconduct. She told ABC`s "Good Morning America" that her gay
brother, Stephen (ph) Reinboldt, told her before he did in 1995 of that
he`d been sexually abused by Hastert when he was a student.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOLENE BURDGE, SISTER: I asked him, Stevie, when was your first same-
sex experience? And he just looked at me and said it was with Dennis
Hastert. And I just -- you know, I was stunned. I said, Why didn`t you
ever tell anybody, Stevie? I mean, he was your teacher. Why didn`t you
ever tell anybody? And he just looked at me and said, Who is ever going to
believe me? In this town, who is ever going to believe me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And was it your sense that this happened more than
once?

BURDGE: Uh-huh.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: More than once. She also told ABC that she confronted
Hastert himself at her brother`s funeral.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BURDGE: I just looked at him and I said, I want to know why you did
what you did to my brother. He just stood there and stared at me. And
then I just continued to say, I want you to know that your secret didn`t
die in there with my brother, and I want you to remember that I`m out here
and that I know.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: NBC News has not independently confirmed Burdge`s story.
It did speak to a friend of Steve Reinboldt`s, though, who says that
Reinboldt told him he had sexual conduct with Dennis Hastert. NBC News has
made repeated attempts to reach Hastert himself but without success.

I`m joined right now by NBC`s Gabe Gutierrez, who joins us live from
Yorkville, Illinois. Gabe, how does this story work? How is this
developing? Are there people coming forward? It looks like there`s more
to this story than it started with.

GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC CORRESPONDENT: Oh, certainly, Chris. There`s a
lot more to this story, it seems, than what was originally laid out in the
indictment. Still a major question, however, is who is "individual A"?
That is the person that is named in the indictment, as you mentioned, and
Hastert is agreeing to pay "individual A" to conceal some sort of past
misconduct.

And the law enforcement officials tell NBC News that that misconduct
was sexual in nature and involved a student while he was a teacher here at
Yorkville High School. But neither the sister of Stephen Reinboldt that
spoke with ABC News or the friend and former classmate of Reinboldt that
spoke to NBC News knows who "individual A" is. So that is the big question
right now.

Now, that friend did tell us that Reinboldt confided with him back in
1974 and said that he had had a sexual relationship with Hastert. That
friend said that he was flabbergasted. He did not want his identity
revealed, but he said that he believes that this relationship had multiple
encounters and that -- he even told us that while Reinboldt did not go into
detail, he did say that the encounter began with massages, and he wouldn`t
say anything more than that.

As you mentioned, Hastert has not commented on these allegations since
the indictment came out, and really, his attorney has not said anything
either, and the firm won`t even officially confirm that he`s being
represented by that firm.

So he will be scheduled to be in court to make his first public
appearance next week -- Chris.

MATTHEWS: So there`s no way Hastert can run away from this because he
faces these, you know, oddly connected banking charges. The only legal
threat -- is that the only legal threat he faces, is this criminal action
by the federal government against him for breaking the banking laws about
how much money you can spend or withdraw at a certain time?

GUTIERREZ: Well, that is what he`s charged with. And yes, we should
be very clear he is not charged with any count or any charge of sexual
abuse. These are just allegations that are coming to light from the sister
and the friend at this point.

But here in this town, there is complete and utter shock at these
allegations. They did not expect the indictment. They certainly didn`t
expect the separate allegations regarding sexual abuse. And Hastert -- it
is -- a lot of people have been commenting on it`s bizarre that he has not
responded at some level. It`s been more than a week now since this
indictment became public and we have not heard anything from Dennis
Hastert.

Of course, he was a prominent figure in this community. He coached --
he was a teacher and coach here from 1965 to `81. Then he went on to,
obviously, the career in the state legislature, and then on to Congress,
becoming one of the most powerful politicians in the country, and then
becoming a very prominent lobbyist in -- after he left Congress.

So really, there are a lot of questions here in this community and
also on Capitol Hill on what else could come out in this case. But right
now, Hastert is only charged with that -- that bank fraud, as well as lying
to the FBI -- Chris.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you so much for this report, NBC`s Gabe
Gutierrez out there. Thank you so much on this Friday night.

In light of these allegations, Hastert`s record is under renewed
scrutiny, of course, his public record. Hastert led the Republican Party`s
efforts against gay rights. He supported the marriage protection act that
stripped the federal courts of power over same-sex cases. He helped lead
the drive for a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, and he voted
against the employment non-discrimination act which would ban employers
from discrimination against workers based on their sexual orientation or
identity.

I`m joined right now by former Democratic Massachusetts congressman
Barney Frank and "Washington Post" opinion writer Jonathan Capehart.

I`m going to tell you, I don`t even know what the relevance of his
public record is on issues of gay rights, for example, or generally his
views on sexual identity tolerance. I don`t know how relevant they are.
The producers here think they`re relevant. What do you gentlemen think?

I want to start with you, Congressman Frank. How do you reconcile any
kind of public position, conservative, liberal or somewhere in the middle,
with these charges against this guy? Are they relevant or just another
problem?

BARNEY FRANK (D), FMR. MASSACHUSETTS CONGRESSMAN: The charges have
two aspects, Chris. One of the charges is a serious one, that as a coach,
the wrestling coach, he took advantage of his position with all the
coercion that that gives him -- whether there was any physical coercion or
not, we don`t know, but certainly, there was this moral coercion of the
coach over the teacher (sic). That was in violation of basic rules.

Ironically, he was leading the charge as speaker in his first week to
impeach Bill Clinton for having had sex with an intern who was much older
than a high school student. But there was another aspect to this,
obviously, that titillates people, and that is that it was gay sex.

Now, obviously, I don`t believe that there was anything wrong with
that. I think, increasingly, the public understands that. But the fact
that this man, who as the Republican speaker initiated any gay activities
is directly relevant because of an issue of hypocrisy.

It`s directly relevant because the Republican Party for the past
couple of decades has tried to use opposition to legal equality for LGBT
people as part of their platform. And now to know that one more hypocrite
was there, one more man who was having same-sex activity on the side
himself, in fact in inappropriate ways, that he was one of those leading
this effort to deny these rights to other people does go to the argument of
the hypocrisy that the Republican Party has been showing.

MATTHEWS: It`s interesting that the laws out there -- we checked it
today -- that you can have sexual relations with somebody above the age of
18, I guess it`s 18 or older, even if you have a in loco parentis
relationship with them, but not -- but normally at 17 because they raise
it, but only a year.

It just seems -- Jonathan, this is tricky business, obviously, because
if it is same-sex relations, it`s one thing, but it`s a violation of the
trust relationship on another basis. You know, it`s not pedophilia. It`s
not having sex with a pre-pubescent. We got to get that term out of play
here. But it is something that most people, in fact, the law says is
wrong.

JONATHAN CAPEHART, "WASHINGTON POST," MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Right. You
know, Chris, I want to push back on Congressman Frank in this regard. The
hypocrisy here is not the congressman`s opposition to gay rights. I really
think that we should separate gay rights from what the congressman stands
accused of, not legally but morally.

He`s accused of child abuse, molestation. I mean, you cannot equate
LGBT issues and being gay to pedophilia and child abuse. So I want to make
sure that viewers understand that the two are completely separate.

But where the hypocrisy is, it`s a moral hypocrisy. As Congressman
Frank pointed out, it was Denny Hastert who was part of the -- part of the
crowd of people haranguing President Clinton at the time of impeachment
because of his moral failings in the Oval Office.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CAPEHART: And so that I think is where the real hypocrisy here is.

FRANK: Chris, can I...

MATTHEWS: Go ahead, Congressman.

FRANK: I know my diction is garbled, but I`m surprised that I was
unable to make myself clear, apparently, to Mr. Capehart. I specifically
said that there were two aspects of this, and that one of the aspects was
the illegitimate, inappropriate use, the other was the gay sex piece.

(CROSSTALK)

CAPEHART: I just want to make sure it`s clear.

FRANK: Well, and you said you were pushing back against me as if I
didn`t make it clear. The fact is that there is in the public reaction,
let`s be honest, a titillation not simply that he was doing this to a
student but that the former Republican speaker turns out to have had at
least a significant element of bisexuality.

And I disagree with you that that`s not relevant. The Republican
Party didn`t just impeach Bill Clinton for having sex with Monica Lewinsky.
They have for decades now been using sexual relationships as a political
tool, as a wedge issue, until the country outgrew their fascination with
that.

Dennis Hastert didn`t just vote against gay rights. As speaker, he
twice put before the U.S. House a constitutional amendment to ban all same-
sex marriages, even those that had already happened retroactively. And for
a man who was himself engaging in same-sex activity to have done that as
speaker of the House is a degree of hypocrisy that I think ought to be
talked about.

Yes, I agree it`s separate from the other activity, but they are both
problems.

CAPEHART: Well, Congressman...

MATTHEWS: Well, just remember, though, just to...

CAPEHART: ... I agree with you in your political analysis.

MATTHEWS: ... umpire this a little bit, Bill Clinton got in big
trouble with the House. He was impeached by the House because of
heterosexual behavior with a person who was under his charge. Monica
wasn`t even an intern at the time. She was 22. So you can argue there --
and clearly, it`s not a case of adult male this -- I`m sorry, male-child
thing. It was abuse of power position, I think you would agree, right,
gentlemen?

(CROSSTALK)

FRANK: But Hastert did even moreso.

MATTHEWS: Yes. These are power -- anyway, Hastert helped lead the
drive to impeach President Clinton. Here`s Hastert`s floor speech -- boy,
I love tape -- attacking the president`s, quote, "misconduct" during the
impeachment debates back in `98. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: According to
Alexander Hamilton in Federalist 65, impeachment concerns offenses which
proceed from the misconduct of public men, or in other words, from the ap
(ph) abused (ph) violation of some public trust.

The evidence in President Clinton`s case is overwhelming that he has
abused and violated the public trust. The president`s inability to abide
by the law, the Constitution and my (ph) conscience have all led me to the
solemn conclusion that impeachment articles must be passed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: What do you think, Congressman -- you were there -- of
having to go back to the Federalist papers in this regard? I thought that
was an amazing sort of play there by him.

FRANK: Well, it was interesting that he cited Alexander Hamilton
because, as Arthur Schlesinger pointed out in our hearing, Hamilton himself
was being blackmailed by a guy because he`d been having sex with the guy`s
wife, and they were going to impeach Hamilton until he explained why he was
doing it. And they said, Oh, that`s different. So Hamilton was a poor
choice for Hastert, although he...

MATTHEWS: What was Hamilton`s explanation of this behavior with
somebody`s wife?

FRANK: That he was...

(CROSSTALK)

FRANK: That he was being blackmailed and he didn`t want it to come
out.

But can we also add on the hypocrisy case that Hastert was the third
guy to be speaker. First you had Gingrich, who was having an affair with
his third wife, cheating on his second wife with whom he cheated on his
first wife. And you then had Bob Livingston, who had to quit because he
had had sex with a lobbyist.

So in that group, by the way, these people leading the charge against
Clinton, Clinton was -- was the choirboy. I would have said altar boy, but
that would have been misunderstood.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: Oh, come on! Just a few bad apples. Come on, Barney.

(LAUGHTER)

CAPEHART: The entire barrel.

MATTHEWS: The entire barrel! That`s so true.

FRANK: And by the way, the guy who was behind Hastert and the guy who
made him the speaker because he knew that he himself was too controversial,
was Tom Delay who was then the whip. And Delay was smart enough to
understand that he needed somebody to be a front man. He thought he had
somebody who obviously looked very clean.

MATTHEWS: I put Tom Delay outside of that little barrel, anyway.

(LAUGHTER)

MATTHEWS: That barrel`s already filled. Thank you, Barney Frank, for
coming on. And thank you, Jonathan Capehart.

FRANK: That was probably not a good metaphor here, Chris.

MATTHEWS: I know the joke.

Anyway, coming up, that "Vanity Fair" cover this week of Caitlyn
Jenner has conservatives running scared. It was a watershed moment for
transgender people, but to conservatives, it`s a reminder that they`re
losing the culture wars in this country.

Plus, Hillary Clinton is baiting her Republican rivals, including all
the governors, into a fight over voting rights. She`s nailing them. And
tonight, it`s safe to say they`re taking the bait.

And the big money men behind the candidates, the Daddy Warbucks out
there -- we got a list of them who are propping up the Republicans who want
to be president. Everybody`s got a sugar daddy.

Finally, an emotional farewell today to Vice President Joe Biden`s son
Beau.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Very strong jobs numbers today for the month of May. The
economy created 280,000 jobs, and that shows economists that things are
back on track after a slow start to the year. The unemployment rate inched
up to 5.5 percent, but -- a big but there -- even -- it`s a good reason --
a good reason it went up. Hundreds of thousands more people began looking
for jobs than last month.

And we`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Anyway, this is the week that
the former Olympic athlete Bruce Jenner came out publicly as a woman named
Caitlyn, and many Democrats, including President Obama, praised her
bravery.

On the right, however, this story is very different. According "The
Washington Post," quote, "Among the social conservatives, who are a
powerful force within the Republican Party, there is a far darker view. To
them, the widespread acceptance of Jenner`s evolution from an Olympic gold
medalist, whose masculinity was enshrined on the Wheaties box, to a shapely
woman posing suggestively on the cover of `Vanity Fair` was a reminder that
they, the conservatives, are losing the culture wars. Across social media,
blogs and talk shows this week, conservatives painted an apocalyptic view
of America."

While most of the 2016 Republican candidates have remained quiet,
conservatives on radio and on line have given a harsh assessment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Conservatives and Republicans
are the new weirdoes, the new kooks. And that is part of the political
objective here in normalizing all of this really marginal behavior. I
mean, if -- if less than 1 percent of the population is engaging in it,
it`s marginalized behavior. It isn`t normal, no matter how you define it!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want one snapshot of just how corrupt, how
morally twisted, how morally confused, how morally bankrupt we have become,
all you`ve got to do is take a look at the cover of "Vanity Fair" magazine!

ANN COULTER, CONSERVATIVE COMMENTATOR: Liberals are always, you know,
Science, science and conservatives don`t believe science.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

COULTER: This Bruce Jenner still has Y chromosomes in every cell of
his body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

COULTER: Do not tell me he is a girl. If it`s real, it is a mental
illness, and I don`t think we should be celebrating it and laughing about
it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, earlier this year, Mike Huckabee joked about
transgender people as such. Let`s watch him in action.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE HUCKABEE (R-AR), FMR. GOV., FMR. PRES. CANDIDATE: I wish someone
had told me when I was in high school that I could have felt like a woman
when it came time to take showers in PE. I`m pretty sure I would have
found my feminine side and said, Coach, I think I`d rather shower with the
girls today.

(LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE)

HUCKABEE: You`re laughing because it sounds so ridiculous, doesn`t
it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Well, what does this all say about social conservatives in
the Republican Party?

Matt Schlapp was a former political director in the George W. Bush
White House, and Gregory Angelo is executive director of the Log Cabin
Republicans.

I want to start with you, Gregory. And you obviously have a wing of
your party that goes flapping like nuts when this stuff happens.

GREGORY ANGELO, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS: Yes, but
the...

MATTHEWS: It is a wing.

ANGELO: You chose the most firebrand pundits out there.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Oh, no, no. I took out -- I took out Michael Savage this
afternoon during our meeting. That`s even worse.

ANGELO: Well, again, but you`re talking about radio hosts and
pundits.

MATTHEWS: Well, who are they? And...

ANGELO: Well, they are pundits. They`re just that.

MATTHEWS: Are you kidding me? There`s not a person in your party
that will stand up -- stand up to Rush Limbaugh? Rush Limbaugh is an
incredibly powerful person in the Republican Party. And you know it. So,
don`t say he`s just some guy off in the wings somewhere.

ANGELO: Well, I`m concerned not so much with the voices against
Caitlyn Jenner right now, but what you didn`t mention in the opening of
your segment was the Republicans that have come out in support of Caitlyn
Jenner.

MATTHEWS: OK.

ANGELO: I mean, Rick Santorum, running for president of the United
States.

MATTHEWS: Let`s go there. We have him right now. We have it all
queued up. Thank you.

As I said, there aren`t many 2016 Republican contenders willing to
even comment on Caitlyn Jenner. Perhaps surprisingly, one of the few who
did was Rick Santorum. What he said might be even more surprising. Asked
by reporters about Jenner -- Jenner`s gender change, Santorum said: "If
he`s a woman, then he`s a woman. My responsibility as a human being is to
love and accept everybody, not to criticize people for who they are."

Santorum later expanded on his position. Let`s listen.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

RICK SANTORUM (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If Bruce Jenner says he`s
a woman, then I`m not going to argue with him. I know -- I know what
anatomically and biologically he is. And that doesn`t change by himself
identifying himself.

I mean, he -- you know, his genetics and DNA isn`t changing. But, out
of respect, I`m not going to -- I`m not to -- as I said, I`m not going to
argue whether Bruce Jenner is a woman with Bruce Jenner. I`m going to
treat him with dignity and respect. And that`s what I said.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: OK.

Let me go to Matt. What is the role? Gregory says it`s not a large
role. What role do the voices we were hearing and have been hearing about
the Jenner new identity, what do they tell us about the state culturally of
the Republican Party and how you`re going to field a presidential candidate
next year who either reflects those views, challenges them or dismisses
them? I want to know how you`re going to handle this kind of talk.

MATT SCHLAPP, FORMER WHITE HOUSE DIRECTOR OF POLITICAL AFFAIRS: Well,
obviously, the nation has shifted its views on issues surrounding gay
rights rather dramatically.

You can see that just in the polls. And, you know, that`s what`s
great about living in a democracy. It will have an effect on these
parties. I think the way Rick Santorum answered the question is right.
Actually, there`s a lot -- as you know, the center-right coalition is
pretty broad. There`s a lot of libertarian voices in there.

And, you know, people have a right to live their lives. They have a
zone of privacy where they get to make these decisions. And Ms. Jenner has
a right to make these decisions. That`s -- she`s living her American life.

And, by the way, she doesn`t seem to feel like conservatives hate her
because she defines herself as a conservative, which I think is an
interesting part of the story.

MATTHEWS: Right. Is Huckabee just a joke? Do you ignore him? Both
you guys, take on Huckabee. He won the Iowa caucuses recently. I mean,
he`s still part of your party.

ANGELO: Yes, clearly, there`s more educational work that has to be
done on the transgender issue. That work not only extends to Mike
Huckabee, but also extends to Democrats.

This transgender issue has moved very rapidly here in the United
States...

MATTHEWS: I know it has.

ANGELO: ... in a very short amount of time, extremely short amount of
time.

And I look at Caitlyn Jenner`s coming out, and the voices that I heard
were not only Rick Santorum`s, but also Grover Norquist, but also
Republican Congressman Jason Chaffetz.

MATTHEWS: What did Grover have to say?

ANGELO: He said that he met then Bruce Jenner at an event for Friends
of Abe, which is the Hollywood secret group of Republican actors in
Hollywood. And he said that he found Bruce Jenner to be a strong Reagan
conservative...

MATTHEWS: Tax-cutter. Tax-cutter.

ANGELO: ... and said leave him alone. He famously tweeted -- Grover
Norquist tweeted about that the night...

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Here he is. Let him speak.

Here`s Jenner. Caitlyn Jenner told ABC`s Diane Sawyer that he was --
that`s back when he was Bruce, by the way. Let`s watch when he was Bruce.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DIANE SAWYER, ABC NEWS: Do you think that it will be a maybe
unsettling thing for some people in the conservative wing of the Republican
Party?

BRUCE JENNER, OLYMPIC GOLD MEDAL WINNER: I have thought about that.

SAWYER: But Jenner insists neither political party has a monopoly on
understanding.

JENNER: Are you going to go to Mitch McConnell and John Boehner and
ask them to help champion this cause?

JENNER: I would I would do that, yes, in a heartbeat. Why not? Yes.
And I think they would be very receptive to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Matt, what happens if your party runs somebody more
mainstream than these voices on the radio, which, by the way, I do think
make a lot of noise with the Republican side, everybody who listens to
them?

What happens if you have a Houston situation like you had in `92,
where Pat Buchanan and the rest of them do this, you know, and Dan Quayle`s
wife come out and give this -- this strong jeremiad against new things?
How are you going to avoid that hurting your party, like it did back in
`92, which helped Clinton get elected?

SCHLAPP: Look, we`re a broad party with a lot of people who have
their points of views. And they`re going to be heard.

But I think we`re going to nominate someone who strikes the right tone
on this. I think there`s a whole collection of issues where conservatives
and Republicans believe that people have the right to live their lives.
And I think we`re going to nominate someone like that.

And, by the way, there are voices on the left, too. You know, Ed
Schultz talked about this on his show and he said, why are we talking about
this, when we have so many other issues? There`s a lot of pastors that
align themselves with the Democratic Party, a lot of black pastors who are
out there very vocally on these issues?

Look, America is facing these types of issues, and they are looking at
them afresh. It affects all kind of areas of politics. And I think
America`s big enough and strong enough to try to find some kind of area of
neutrality, where Christians can have their views and be respected and
people like Ms. Jenner can have her views and be respected.

MATTHEWS: Do you think Caitlyn will get a speaking chance at the
Republican Convention next summer in Cleveland?

ANGELO: I don`t know about that. But I`ll tell you one thing.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: I love the way you answer it. You don`t actually answer
it. You slip...

(CROSSTALK)

ANGELO: I don`t control who speaks at the convention, but we might
make some news here tonight.

I have been in communication with Caitlyn Jenner`s agent about setting
up meetings on the Hill with prominent Republicans, these very Republicans
Diane Sawyer challenged her to meet with and engage with and advocate with.

MATTHEWS: So, when you come on this program -- and I love you coming
on, Gregory and Matt.

ANGELO: Well, thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: I do love your guys, because your point of view is very
positive.

Do you think, when people are sitting at home out on Route 40 around
the United States, and they`re watching this show in a bar somewhere, do
you think they are agreeing with you? Do you think you are speaking for
the Republican Party when you speak with this tolerant voice?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: OK, you`re jumping in. Go ahead, Matt.

SCHLAPP: Chris, I -- well, let me just say, I watch your show and I
hear you talk about these guys in Pennsylvania, right, these labor union
guys.

MATTHEWS: No, I talk about people everywhere, but I talk about
regular people.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Yes, go ahead.

SCHLAPP: Right, but they are sitting back and looking at this, and,
by the way, the whole question about someone being -- having trouble with
their gender I think is confusing for people who don`t understand or don`t
have that problem.

But then you take the next step and you say, shouldn`t we be
compassionate and understanding? I think there`s a lot of Americans who
are like that. I think it`s wrong to assume that Republicans can`t have
that kind of view, to say, look, I don`t understand it in my own life, but
the fact that she`s making these decisions, she has got the right to do it.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: That`s great. That`s a liberal view, by the way. That` a
libertarian, but it`s also a liberal view.

SCHLAPP: I don`t think so.

ANGELO: No, that`s not.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Oh, it`s not?

(CROSSTALK)

ANGELO: Leave -- leave Caitlyn Jenner alone.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: So, when we read the Republican platform next summer -- if
platforms still matter -- you expect to hear this kind of tolerance voiced
by your party?

ANGELO: I don`t know, but I don`t know that...

(CROSSTALK)

ANGELO: I don`t know that they would have a plank in the platform
about this.

MATTHEWS: No statement of tolerance, like you have just made?

ANGELO: I would rather have a platform with less in it than more in
it. I would rather -- it would actually be important to see a platform
that did not address this at all.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Just wait. You`re not happy that the Democratic Party will
probably voice a more -- even a celebratory mood toward people who make
these kinds of personal decisions?

(CROSSTALK)

SCHLAPP: Look, the Democrats decided to take God out of their...

(CROSSTALK)

ANGELO: ... platforms, first of all.

But I`m not sure if this is even going to be an issue, if Republicans
want to engage in a culture war with this. The Democrat are trying to make
this a culture war.

SCHLAPP: Chris?

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Go ahead. Go ahead. Last word, Matt.

SCHLAPP: The Democrats took -- took the mention of God out of their
platform. Talk about something that`s extreme.

ANGELO: That`s right.

SCHLAPP: I think -- I think that`s something that goes a bridge too
far.

Yes, Republicans, the platforms is going to uphold traditional
marriage, but they would be smart to understand and to reach out to all
types of voters...

MATTHEWS: OK.

SCHLAPP: ... and tell them that they respect them and want their
support.

MATTHEWS: You guys talk like the regular suburban Republicans I grew
up with. If your party talked like you two guys, you wouldn`t have
Democrats to worry about. You would be sweeping the country.

Thank you very much, Gregory Angelo.

And thank you, Matt Schlapp. Have a nice weekend. I`m selling you
guys, so I can put you down.

SCHLAPP: Thanks.

ANGELO: Thanks, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, up next: the emotional services this week for Beau
Biden. I was up in Wilmington today with the vice president`s family, just
one of the thousands of people there.

We will be right back with that in just a minute.

And this is HARDBALL.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Today, lines mourners paid their respects to Beau Biden.
The Biden family held a religious viewing at Saint Anthony of Padua in
Wilmington today to honor Beau, the vice president`s oldest son, who died
at age 46 from brain cancer.

Those who were there could sense the breadth and death of the
mourning, that everyone in this country, in fact, cares. And, tomorrow,
President Obama will deliver the eulogy at the funeral mass.

Yesterday, at state capitol, Beau Biden`s family laid in honor. There
it is. The Biden family`s grief was on public display, of course, and
Beau`s 11-year-old daughter, Natalie, 9-year-old son, Hunter, his wife,
Hallie, for hours, in the state capitol, whose halls he had walked,
greeting a long line of mourners.

Anyway, watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JACK MARKELL (D), DELAWARE: A model for what a brother, uncle,
nephew and cousin should be. The Biden family is Delaware`s family.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: That`s the governor of Delaware, of course.

Anyway, the speaker of the Delaware Statehouse remembered Beau and the
deep impact he had on his home state of Delaware. Here he is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETER SCHWARTZKOPF, DELAWARE STATE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Just say one
word, Beau, anywhere in this state, everyone would know immediately who I
was talking about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Beau Biden, an Iraq War veteran, was posthumously honored
by the military and awarded the Delaware Conspicuous Service Cross.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Biden, Joseph Robinette, III, major, Joint Force
Headquarters Detachment, Newcastle, Delaware, the following award is
announced, State of Delaware Conspicuous Service Cross.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Beau smiled for many reasons, but his biggest
smile was for his family. Hallie, Hunter, and Natalie brought him joy
beyond words.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Congressman John Carney is the Democratic representative
and the representative for the whole state of Delaware.

Congressman, you know, this was something learned for the occasion.
It seems like there`s something about Delaware, where, despite the natural
competition of politicians, there`s something that you all get together on.

(CROSSTALK)

REP. JOHN CARNEY (D), DELAWARE: Well, you`re right, Chris.

I think the governor said it right. It`s all about family. This is a
very small place. Everybody knows one another. Everybody knows the
Bidens. Of course, Joe served this state for 36 years as our senator. We
first met Beau after the accident, when Joe was first elected in `72.

And because of that, I think people just wrapped their arm around this
little guy. We watched him grow up through high school, become a lawyer.
We elected him twice to be our attorney general, and he -- he really turned
out to be everything that his father wanted him to be, just a really fine,
generous, kind, humble person.

So, you were up here today. I`m sure you sensed the just really deep
hurt that people are feeling. I was in the church. I brought my mother
over. And she went up to Joe and she said, "Joe, how are you doing?"

And, of course, Joe said, "I wasn`t doing too good, Mrs. Carney, until
I saw you come up to me," which is the way Joe is, and everybody knows and
loves Joe and, of course, we had that same love for Beau.

MATTHEWS: You know what struck me? You know, a lot of countries have
only their aristocrats who run their countries and the big shots.

And Joe Biden, that neighborhood is so middle-middle, so regular.
It`s like where I grew up as a kid, as a very young kid, before we moved to
Northeast Philly, that -- the row houses, the people sitting on their
porches watching what was going on. It was -- to me, it was so familiar,
this regular neighborhood.

And here`s the vice president of the United States, goes to church
there every week.

CARNEY: And it was a little bit eerie, Chris, because, if you
noticed, as you went up to the church, they were getting ready for the
annual Italian Festival, which is a festival that is held every year there
and they raise money for the school.

That`s the old Italian National Parish in the Wilmington Diocese.
That was the old Little Italy neighborhood, still the Little Italy
neighborhood.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

CARNEY: Not as many Italians live there these days, but it was
special to Joe, that festival. It was all about Joe. It was family,
ethnicity, church, religion.

And -- and Joe thrived there. So to see him today up there in the
front that church was just heartbreaking.

MATTHEWS: God, that`s so neighborhood, the way you describe it,
because it reminds me in Philly oft -- they have a parish where the --
saint whatever, and it would say Polish or Italian. It was the way it was
in those days.

Thank you so much. You`re a great guy to come on. Thank you, U.S.
Congressman John Carney of the state of Delaware.

Up next, back to politics, and Hillary Clinton luring the Republicans
very effectively into a fight over voting rights. This is a good field for
her to be fighting on, good turf, smart turf for her. And we will get to
that with the roundtable.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Hillary Clinton, boy, she called out Republican governors the other
day in her party`s effort to strip minorities -- the Republican Party`s
efforts on voting rights.

Well, today the GOP`s cavalry fired back. Clinton had four
Republicans target her in her sights. Let`s take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Here in Texas, former
Governor Rick Perry signed a law that a federal court said was actually
written with the purpose of discriminating against minority voters. In
Wisconsin, Governor Scott Walker cut back early voting and signed
legislation that would make it harder for college students to vote. In New
Jersey, Governor Chris Christie vetoed legislation to extend early voting,
and in Florida, when Jeb Bush was governor, state authorities conducted a
deeply flawed purge of voters before the presidential election in 2000.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: That`s what we call today calling people out, calling them
out by name.

The roundtable: David Corn is the Washington bureau chief for "Mother
Jones", Michelle Bernard of the president of the Bernard Center of women,
still the president, by the way, and Jonathan Allen is chief -- she got re-
elected again -- the chief political correspondent with Vox.

Anyway, first up, is the big guy in Trenton who was loaded for bear to
go after Hillary, go back. Here`s Chris Christie firing back today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Secretary Clinton doesn`t know
the first thing about voting rights in New Jersey or in the other states
that she attacked. And my sense is that she just wants an opportunity, you
know, to commit greater acts of voter fraud around the country. So, you
know, I`m not worried about her opinion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: That`s pretty direct. He`s accusing her of finding ways
for her people to cheat. I mean, that`s pretty direct.

DAVID CORN, MOTHER JONES: Yes, yes, and -- I think this was a great
opportunity for Chris Christie to sort of talk about something that wasn`t
bridgegate or how come your state --

MATTHEWS: It sells with Republicans.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Democrats cheat in the big cities.

CORN: This is one of these issues good for both sides for their base.
Hillary Clinton talks --

MATTHEWS: You`re so smart. You`re so smart.

CORN: Hillary Clinton comes and talks about this, and African-
Americans and progressives and others say she`s out there fighting, she`s
taking it to the other side and the other, I think, strategic advantage
here is we do know that in the coming election there will be operations in
this country where Republicans try to rig the rules again or screwing
around with the Electoral College.

MATTHEWS: Or the places where the Democrats in big cities, ward
leaders steal votes, will there be such cases?

CORN: Probably lesser that be there used to be.

MATTHEWS: Were can agree. Less than there used to be.

JONATHAN ALLEN, VOX: There`s a lack of parity here in this way. This
country has a history of institutionalized voter suppression, whether
you`re talking about poll taxes.

MATTHEWS: No, making you register to vote.

ALLEN: I mean, the whole --

MATTHEWS: Why do we register to vote. Why don`t we just let people
vote?

MICHELLE BERNARD, BERNARD CENTER FOR WOMEN: Why isn`t it automatic?

MATTHEWS: Yes, why doesn`t it come with your birth certificate?

ALLEN: Well, that`s what Hillary Clinton just suggested.

BERNARD: Look, I think this was Hillary Clinton seeing her at her
brightest and best. Not only did she do this --

MATTHEWS: Fine tuned.

BERNARD: She told us what she stands for. She did it at a
historically black college. Imagine if she were to go to historically
black colleges and universities all over the country talking about this --

MATTHEWS: I would say get off your butt and do something about it.

BERNARD: In 2008, before African-Americans decided to back Obama,
Hillary Clinton --

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Is this something that a white woman presidential candidate
can do that an African-American president can`t do? I mean, why didn`t
Obama give this sterling point-by-point scold you, you, you, Christie, Rick
Perry, calling them out?

BERNARD: She can do it. Obama could not do it, for example, like he
couldn`t have done it in 2008 or 2012 and he can do it now because he`s in
the last quarter of his presidency.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

BERNARD: But remember, we`ve talked about over and over again. The
image of the quote, unquote scary black man was something that Obama had to
deal with.

MATTHEWS: But she can morally indict these guys, the other white
people.

BERNARD: Absolutely.

And if you go and look at their numbers, the people she selected to
talk about, Chris Christie does well with African-Americans. Rick Perry,
Jeb Bush do well with Hispanics.

MATTHEWS: Yes, they do.

BERNARD: And these are two groups of --

MATTHEWS: Her playing the game.

Anyway, I don`t think they are doing it because they don`t like black
people. They do it because they like more Republican votes.

BERNARD: Exactly.

MATTHEWS: Former Texas Governor Rick Perry is also firing back at
Hillary Clinton. Let`s take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RICK PERRY (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it makes sense to
have a photo ID to be able to vote. When I got on the airline to come up
here yesterday I had to show my photo ID. Now, Hillary Clinton may not
have had to show an ID to get on an airplane in a long time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s in a private jet.

PERRY: Yes, if she will fly commercial, you show that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: I think you should put your glasses on, Jonathan, when you
make these important points.

(CROSSTALK)

CORN: Look how smart you became all of a sudden.

MATTHEWS: IQ up 20 points, you know?

I think Perry said oops, now he`s wearing glasses. Pretty serious.

BERNARD: And he`s smart, right?

MATTHEWS: With the glasses.

BERNARD: He`s accepting --

ALLEN: Dumber, smarter, dumber.

MATTHEWS: Just couldn`t see the name of the agency he wanted to get
rid of.

BERNARD: You know, the thing is, I mean, Hillary Clinton, she made a
great point yesterday when she pointed out in the state of Texas, in Rick
Perry`s Texas, could you use your concealed weapon ID as ID to vote but you
can`t use a student ID.

MATTHEWS: OK. Here`s the difference that somebody pointed out, one
of our brilliant producers. There`s a difference to showing an ID to get
on an airplane and there`s a difference to showing an ID card to vote. One
is a right.

BERNARD: Yes.

MATTHEWS: A constitutional right to vote, like guys who are for the
Second Amendment and women. Remember that? A right. It is your right.

CORN: Whatever happened to, you know, that very legendary --

MATTHEWS: You don`t have a right to get on an airplane?

CORN: Postmortem autopsy that the GOP did.

MATTHEWS: That we`re going to fix this thing.

CORN: We`re going to fix our relations with black and Latino voters.

MATTHEWS: That`s history.

CORN: It is so history.

They are playing to the base, and the base --

ALLEN: They will do it after they deny people the right to vote.

MATTHEWS: You know, you get to pick the leaders and they get to pick
the voters.

CORN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker returned fire
saying, quote, "Hillary Clinton`s rejection of efforts to make it easier to
vote and harder to cheat not only defies logic, but the will of the
majority of Americans. Once again, Hillary Clinton`s extreme views are far
outside the mainstream." What staffer writes that?

Anyway, Rick Perry also defended voter ID laws because, quote, "They
are highly popular." Here`s Perry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PERRY: The people of the state of Texas is who she is taking on
because that was a law that was passed by the people of the state of Texas.
She just went into my home state and dissed every person who supports
having an identification to either get on an airplane or to vote and that`s
highly popular.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: According to a FOX News poll he`s right. Last year 70
percent of the country said voter ID laws are needed to stop illegal
voting, 27 percent said voter ID laws are unnecessary and discourage legal
voting. I think it may be a vote about majoritarianism. Not popular vote.
Most people have driver`s licenses, but the people that don`t, let them
vote.

Is it easier for you to vote without a license? If you don`t have
one, you can`t vote and what`s the crime in not having a driver`s license.

CORN: It`s also not a problem. Let`s say this again and again and
again. GOP keeps saying, Rick Perry keep said, we have to stop all the
illegal voting. They have like 23 cases a year and so, it`s a fake problem
to suppress a vote that doesn`t benefit the Republicans. That`s what this
is.

BERNARD: To suppress it and it`s perfect again for the Democrats
because Hispanics and Asians don`t typically vote in the same numbers as
whites and this is perfect plucking for Hillary Clinton.

MATTHEWS: Why don`t they spend more time trying to find cases of
really bad vote cheating and people would have a different attitude?
Either there isn`t or they are just too lazy to go find it.

CORN: It doesn`t exist.

MATTHEWS: It seems like tease a prima facie argument.

BERNARD: Or telling the American public what they stand for.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, the roundtable is staying with us.

And up next, the Republican Daddy Warbucks, we got the rogues gallery,
the big money. Everybody has an uncle sugar to use somebody`s phrase,
putting up the cash for the 2016 candidates. I call them Daddy Warbucks
because they are almost always hawkish.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Well, here`s a tough one for conservatives and moderates
actually. Jeb Bush is doing worse with conservatives now than Mitt Romney
was doing at this point in the 2012 campaign. Only a third of
conservatives say they have a favorable opinion of the former Florida
governor, 40 percent say they had a favorable opinion of Mitt Romney four
years ago. Granted, Romney wasn`t really facing viable alternatives when
he ran than Jeb is.

Still, as John Kasich said yesterday in New Hampshire, no one`s afraid
of Jeb.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JOHN KASICH (R), OHIO: I thought that Jeb was going to just suck
all the air out of the room and it just hasn`t happened. No hit on Jeb.
No hit on you, Jeb.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: That`s going to be a fight, my prediction in New Hampshire
next year between him and Jeb. That`s going to be the fight for who gets
to be the real candidate. Jeb struggling out there for Kasich, looks like
Kasich`s getting in.

We`ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We`re back with our roundtable, David, Michelle and
Jonathan.

Well, 2016 is expected to break previous spending records for
presidential campaigns. And the crowded field of Republican presidential
hopefuls are coming to the race armed with their own brand of conservative
politics, and in many cases, their own billionaire backer or two.

Florida Senator Marco Rubio has millionaire, Miami car dealer, Norman
Braman. Behind him, Rubio is supported by Larry Ellison, the founder of
software giant Oracle, and perhaps by casino tycoon, Sheldon Adelson.

Texas Senator Ted Cruz has hedge fund magnate Robert Mercer in his
corner.

Even Rick Santorum has been out of office a long time has mutual fund
financier, Foster Friess, remember him, as a benefactor.

As for Chris Christie, Home Depot co-founder Ken Langone, is actually
an impressive guy, has offered his support to the embattled governor.

So, everybody`s got somebody rich. And this isn`t the idea of
McCain/Feingold, of your $2,700. This is about men, generally, who can
write checks, they can write a check, I went a little Southern there, they
can write a check for almost any amount of money. And they can keep a guy
running, like they did with Newt Gingrich.

CORN: This has a couple of impacts on the race. One is that you may
see this with Jeb Bush as well, that people are going to start outsourcing
all their activities to super PACs. Which are going to spend, you know,
get $1 billion --

MATTHEWS: Explain why.

CORN: What happens is --

MATTHEWS: Because you can spend all you want.

CORN: A contributor billionaire can give as much as they can to a
super PAC and only $2,700 to a campaign. If the super PAC starts doing the
work of your campaign, your campaign doesn`t have to do that. And as a
candidate, you can just not raise money.

MATTHEWS: What`s this going to start killing our political process?
When are people going to say, this stinks?

BERNARD: It started right after Citizens United. It is killing the
political process. People get it, but I think it`s also important to
remember, it doesn`t matter how much money you have. The American public
is not that stupid.

MATTHEWS: So we`ll still see through it?

BERNARD: $100 billion is not going to --

MATTHEWS: I think it can help, but it can`t win it.

ALLEN: I think you`re absolutely right.

MATTHEWS: You think I`m right?

ALLEN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Hey, it`s Friday night!

(CHEERS)

ALLEN: Hey!

CORN: How long can it keep you in the race, though?

MATTHEWS: Until the end.

BERNARD: No, but close, though.

ALLEN: Money comes from viability, and viability also the to some
degree comes from money in terms of staying in the race for a while.
Nobody wins a race because of the money.

MATTHEWS: Yes, we`ll see. That`s good for America. We`ll be right
back.

Thank you, David Corn. Thank you, Michelle Bernard. Thank you,
Jonathan Allen.

We`ll be right back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: That`s HARDBALL for now. And thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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