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'Up with Steve Kornacki' for Saturday, June 13th, 2015

Read the transcript to the Saturday show

Date: June 13, 2015
Guest: Tristan Hallman, Debbie Dingell, Charlie Dent, Lincoln Chafee, Ann
Lewis, Brian Fallon


STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST: More Rodham, less Clinton.

And a good morning to you on the East Coast and in the Central Time Zone,
in the Rocky Mountains, even out on the West Coast where it is really early
right now. We are coming to you live on the banks of the East River here
in New York City, where just behind us they`re setting up on a small sliver
of land, it`s called Roosevelt Island. What are they setting up for?
They`re setting up for Hillary Clinton`s first major rally of her
presidential campaign. Now, yes, it`s true. She did announce her campaign
some time back. She`s held some events since then. She`s also made some
speeches. But the scale has been small until now.

That was the soft launch before now, then today starts the hard launch.
And just hours from now we`re going to be hearing from the candidate
herself as she makes a direct and personal case for why she should be the
45th president of the United States. And we`re going to spend the next two
hours right here looking ahead to that speech, looking ahead to the
campaign, to the challenges and to the obstacles that Hillary faces and to
the opportunities maybe that her opponents have, both Republicans and her
fellow Democrats.

We are also, though, this morning keeping an eye on the world outside of
Roosevelt Island where there is a lot going on. There is, as we speak, an
active standoff in Dallas, Texas, right now between a police SWAT team and
a group of suspects who opened fire on police headquarters in Dallas.
Those suspects are now hold up in a car, they are said to be in talks with
police negotiators. This is a developing story. Much more from Dallas on
that in just a minute.

Also happening this morning, in Upstate, New York an arrest in a not guilty
plea in connection with the prison break of those two convicted killers who
sawed their way out of a maximum security facility and who remain on the
run. More on that ahead as well.

But we begin this morning with those shots fired overnight at the Dallas
Police Headquarters with possibly multiple suspects still at large. Take a
look at how it went down.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He hit that cop car.




KORNACKI: The suspect in that armored van seen ramming a police vehicle
before the shots were fired at police headquarters, shattering windows
after the shooting at the Police Headquarters, the van leading police on a
low-speed chase to Hutchins, Texas, where police officers say that more
shots were fired. Right now police have disabled the vehicle. They are
currently engaged with a suspect via a SWAT team, Dallas police holding a
press conference on that just moments ago.


DAVID O. BROWN, DALLAS POLICE CHIEF: The suspect has told our negotiators
that we took his child and we accused him of being a terrorist and that
he`s going to blow us up, and then cut off negotiations.


KORNACKI: All right. No police officers have been injured so far this
morning. Now, on the phone with us right now we have "Dallas Morning News"
crime reporter Tristan Hallman. Sir Tristan, you`re on the scene there.
What`s the latest you can tell?

TRISTAN HALLMAN, "DALLAS MORNING NEWS": I`m actually near police
headquarters where they detonated two bags of explosives earlier. We`ve
got another reporter out in the scene in Hutchins where as far as I can
tell, the suspect have been unresponsive. Like you said, the vehicle is
disabled. But we`re all this kind of waiting for this to conclude.

KORNACKI: And what can you tell us about any word on the state of those
negotiations right now. We`re hearing, we`re not sure the number of total
suspects here. Apparently one is engaged in negotiations with the police?

HALLMAN: Yes. Well, that`s part of the thing. We`re not sure if this is
-- this could end up just being one person. Witnesses said they believe
there might be multiple people. The shots fired came from automatic --
fully automatic rifles. So that can also help you, you know, any
perspective on how many shooters there were. But police are operating
under the assumption that there`s multiple, but it could be less than that.

KORNACKI: All right. Tristan Hallman from the "Dallas Morning News," I
appreciate you taking the minute this morning. Obviously, we`re going to
be keeping an eye on this breaking situation in Dallas, Texas, throughout
the morning. Much more on that throughout the show.

Okay. Now to the business at hand, a short swim from where we`re sitting,
New York City`s Roosevelt Island, that`s right behind us, the big official
launch of Hillary Clinton`s campaign. It`s a speech that`s expected to be
more personal than just about anything we`ve heard from Clinton before.
Her aids saying that Clinton`s mother will form the emotional core of
today`s speech, if not her entire campaign. Her late mother Dorothy Howell
Rodham was twice abandoned as a child by her parents, leaving home at the
age of 14 to work as a maid. As Amy Chozick writes today`s "New York
Times," quote, "In this campaign Hillary`s mother`s story may help address
one of Mrs. Clinton`s central challenges, convincing voters who feel they
already know everything about her, that there is indeed more to know, and
she`s motivated by more than ambition."

That a political situation here for Clinton, we know all about the
advantages that she brings to this race. She`s the overwhelming favorite
to win the democratic nomination, she`s a bigger favorite really than we`ve
ever seen before for her own party`s nomination. And also right now, she`s
ahead of her potential republican opponents when you poll them. But some
red flags for Hillary Clinton. The number of voters who question her
honesty and trustworthiness, that number is up, this in the wake of
allegations about the Clinton Foundation. Today is her chance to start
changing that. Bill and Chelsea Clinton also set to join Hillary for
today`s event. This is Bill`s first time out on the trail this time

And from here for Hillary, the real campaigning is going to begin. Events
planned all weekend long in that critical first-in-the-nation caucus state
of Iowa, that state where she finished in third place against Barack Obama
and even John Edwards back in 2008. Clinton will be heading right out to
Iowa as soon as she`s finished, right behind us on Roosevelt Island. So,
to preview what`s going to happen today, what`s going to happen in the
weeks, months to come?

We have with us our panel for our first ever on location UP show, we have
MSNBC political analyst Joan Walsh, she`s the editor-at-large for Salon.
Michael Steele, MSNBC contributor and former chairman of the Republican
National Committee and E.J. Dionne, also an MSNBC contributor and a
columnist with "The Washington Post" and a senior fellow at Brookings.

Welcome, guys. Thanks for being here.


KORNACKI: Really exciting, you know? We`re not going to be on Roosevelt
Island, we can at least have the best view of it that there is, so.

MICHAEL STEELE, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: And I hope you swim across when
we`re done.

KORNACKI: You`re all coming with me, right? We`re going to do the doggie
paddle whatever it is.

So, Joan, let me start with you, you know, a couple hours away, we live in
this age now of we have announcements, we have announcements of
announcements, we have soft rollouts, we have hard rollouts. So, we`re
sitting here say, well, she`s been a candidate for two months. But it is
different today because this is supposed to be sort of, this is being
billed at least as the grand purpose speech for Hillary Clinton.

JOAN WALSH, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. And I think we all had a lot of
questions when she came out with her soft launch. And it was a lovely
video. But really what does is this mean and what is she going to run on?
She`s filled that in a lot. I think we`ve learned a lot in the last couple
of months. I think we`ve all been surprised by her bold stance on mass
incarceration, immigration action as well as voting rights. These are
amazing things. But I think, you know, when I found out where she was
going to be, what she was doing, that`s bold, too. Because it wasn`t very
long ago that Democrats were running away from New York. I mean, New York
was the laboratory -- New York City was the laboratory for the new deal.
So many amazing things happened in the way of labor protection, child
protection, that later on became the new deal.

KORNACKI: And it used to be, if you`re a presidential candidate, you go to
a swing state, you go to Ohio, you go to Virginia. You don`t go to blue --

WALSH: Which became in the `70s when the backlash to the Democratic Party
emerged, a symbol of everything that was wrong when in fact it had been a
laboratory for everything that was right. So, she, unlike her husband who
said the government is over, I`m not saying she`s embracing big government,
per se, but she is really trying to embrace that new deal legacy that too
many Democrats have run away from and I`m, frankly, really happy to see

KORNACKI: Well, much more on that contrast between sort of the Clintons of
the `90s and the message of the Democratic Party in the United States in
where they are today. We have an interesting piece coming up in that later
on the show. But E.J., let me ask you as well about what we`re hearing
about this speeches, this idea of a much more personal appeal from Hillary
Clinton. This is a woman who has not traditionally liked talking about
herself personally on the public stage, a big contrast there with her
husband who will tell you all sorts of childhood stories and everything,
this is a different role for her she`s trying to assume today.

DIONNE: Wait, but the one person she seems to have been comfortable
talking about is her mother, she talked about her at length in her book and
her mother`s struggles with a family that broke up and really kind of let
her go in the world. And in her book, she quotes her mother saying, you
know, Hillary asked her how did you do this? And her mother said it`s
because the people who showed me kindness were the people who kept me
going. And I think Hillary is trying to say I`m the person who gets your
struggle. And I think the test of today will be, if you go into your
search engine three months from now and you get more hits for the words
Hillary and fight or Hillary and middle class than you get for the words
Hillary and Benghazi or Hillary and server or Hillary and Clinton
Foundation, they will have succeeded.

And I think their whole purpose today is to begin a two-month effort to
push back on the stories that have dominated the news for the last six
months which have clearly been a hit on her. She`s feel ahead of the
Republicans. But her personal ratings are down, and to switch this to a
campaign about the voters -- bill Clinton whenever he was in trouble would
say this campaign is not about me, it`s about you, and you had about three
syllables in it. That`s what she`s going to be doing today.

KORNACKI: So, Michael Steele, from the republican perspective, we look at
what she`s trying to accomplish in terms of her own party, in terms of the
general election, what are the vulnerabilities you`re seeing? When you
look at Hillary Clinton, the candidate who is presenting herself today, so
they would have had vulnerabilities that you see?

STEELE: I think history is a big part of her vulnerability. I think the
way this campaign has in itself launch handled some of these bigger issues
that they`ve allowed them to become narratives onto themselves. Where they
have not, in most cases you would want to get out in front of some of these
stories, very much like the way a Bill Clinton would have in some
instances, so I think her vulnerabilities really lie within the
organization itself. This is going to be a test to see exactly what kind
of organization will Hillary Clinton have. This is Hillary Clinton 1.0,
one point half, you know, or is this 3.0. Is this all completely a brand
new approach?

I think some of the other vulnerabilities rest in the numbers, where you
have a significant number of voters out there, a growing number saying,
well, I don`t trust her. I`m not sure about her honesty, et cetera, et
cetera. But put a little asterisk there. She is leading Republicans
despite that, number one. And number two, I think a lot of voters have
already baked that into how they feel about politicians generally. They
don`t like them. They find them to be not very trustworthy. So I think
they kind of figure that part out and those numbers, I don`t think they`re
necessarily dispositive of where the election will end up for her.

KORNACKI: Well, you can always make the argument, too, back in the 1990s,
the poll said voters didn`t necessarily trust Bill Clinton.

STEELE: Exactly.

KORNACKI: All that much and he got elected twice governor in 1996. I`ll
thank the panel for right now. But they`re going to be here throughout the
next two hours. A lot to talk about still with this speech coming with the
campaign to come. They`ll be here with us in the next two hours.

But we do right now want to pivot back to that breaking news we were
telling you about at the top of the show in Dallas, Texas, this morning.
SWAT teams surrounding the suspect or suspects in the plural near the city
of Hutchins, Texas. This after shots were fired early this morning outside
of Dallas Police Headquarters. Now, explosives were also apparently found.

More now from NBC News` Charles Hadlock who is on the scene in Dallas.
Charles, what can you tell us?

CHARLES HADLOCK, NBC NEWS PRODUCER: Hi, Steve. Well, this is still is a
very active crime scene. You see the police officers here behind me
guarding the Dallas Police Headquarters which is about two blocks that way.
The street is covered with shell casings from a massive shooting this
morning, about midnight, when this black armored van pulled up and began
firing on police officers in their cars. Police returned fire and began
chasing the vehicle. That vehicle is now 20 miles south of Dallas in the
town of Hutchins in a jack-in-the-box parking lot. Negotiations were under
way earlier this morning. We don`t know where they stand right now.

But when negotiations began with this man who police describe as a 36-year-
old white male who told police, quote, "You took my child and called me a
terrorist, and now I`m going to blow you up." They`re not sure if there
are any explosives in that van, but they did find four bags back here at
the police headquarters. One of those bags contained at least one or two
pipe bombs, and police detonated the bag earlier today. Nothing happened,
but they are still watching the situation very closely here in Dallas --

KORNACKI: All right, NBC`s Charles Hadlock on the ground in Texas. Thanks
for that update. And we`re going to continue to keep an eye on this
developing situation in Dallas, bringing you the latest as we learn it.

Also much more on the show from us as we get ready for that big Hillary
Clinton rally right behind us on Roosevelt Island in New York City.

Plus, what the Republicans in the race for president, what are they up to
this weekend? Well, here is a hint. It involves big money and also flag
football. We`ll going to have a live report. But first a stunning defeat
for President Obama. It comes at the hands of his own party. That`s next.
Stay with us.


KORNACKI: All right. We`re back here in New York City overlooking the
site of Hillary Clinton`s first big rally of the 2016 campaign. That is
set to take place on that island right behind me, Roosevelt Island a little
bit later this morning. We`ll going to be returning to that topic in just
a little bit. But now, to the big news last night in politics, a stunning
defeat for President Obama on a center piece of his second term agenda.
Members of his own party, his fellow, his fellow Democrats in the U.S.
house blowing up the big 12-nation trade deal, the Trans-Pacific
Partnership. This is a deal that has been ten years in the works linking
40 percent of the world`s economy. And there is still a chance that the
President could prevail in this fight. We`ll going to get into that in
just a second.

But what happened in the house yesterday represents nothing short of a
major rebuke of the President by some of his closest allies. And it came
after Obama made a surprised last minute trip to the capitol to personally
press House Democrats just hours before that vote yesterday. That marks
his first lobbying trip to the capitol in almost two years. It also came
on the heels of another surprise visit to the Congressional baseball game
the night before. Members of Congress telling "The Washington Post" that
the White House pushed harder on the trade deal than on any issue since
health care reform five years ago, in 2010. And yet those personal pleas
from the President fell on deaf ears.


REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: I will be voting today to slow
down the fast track to get a better deal for the American people, bigger
paychecks, better infrastructure, help the American people fulfill the
American dream.


KORNACKI: Right now, as we said, this is not necessarily the end of the
Transpacific Partnership. House Speaker John Boehner who is Obama`s ally
in the scrambled politics of trade right now is giving the President the
weekend to scare up enough votes for another shot early next week.


REP. PAUL RYAN (R), WISCONSIN: Now, the President has some work yet to do
with his party to complete this process. This isn`t over yet, and we hope
that they can get together and make sure that we finish this so that
America is back leading.


KORNACKI: That`s a tall order for the White House, though. They just have
two days now to win back 90 Democrats who defected. But the message from
the White House yesterday was nothing to see here.


another procedural snafu has emerged. These kind of entanglements are
endemic to the House of Representatives.


KORNACKI: All right. Joining me now, Michigan Congresswoman Debbie
Dingell, a democrat who opposes President Obama`s trade push. And
Pennsylvania Congressman Charlie Dent, he`s a republican who is backing the
Transpacific Partnership. Thank you both for joining us.

Congresswoman Dingell, let me start first with you. And it`s a little
complicated what happened yesterday because this fast track authority for
the trade deal actually passed yesterday. What was rejected was this thing
that had been linked to it, trade adjustment assistance. The idea of
being, if you`re going to have a trade deal, we`re going to also pass this
to protect workers who are affected by it. Now, you voted against both of
those. But there would seem to be some indications yesterday, Nancy Pelosi
seemed to hint yesterday that maybe there could be some negotiations with
Republicans to sweeten the pot a little bit for that trade -- for that
trade adjustment assistance, maybe bringing in highway funding, something
like that. My question to you is, is there anything that could be done on
that front in the next few days that would get you to reconsider your vote?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (R), MICHIGAN: I don`t think that Nancy yesterday was
talking about bringing in highway trust funding for it. I think she talked
about, it was time for the House to begin to move on to that. Quite
frankly, I know that we`ve got to compete in a global marketplace. But I
know we have got to play in a liberal playing field, I have been begging
for strong currency manipulation provisions in this bill. I come from a
state where business and labor both agree on that. And that`s why we voted
against that bill yesterday. It was a major win for the workers in this
country. And we need to make sure that their voice is at the table. When
decisions are being made that affect their life and their livelihood. And
too many trade agreements have been passed that have cost us too much.
NAFTA, a million jobs. That`s unacceptable.

KORNACKI: All right. Congressman Dent, on this issue of the trade
adjustment assistance that you voted for this piece of it yesterday. Most
of your fellow Republicans did not vote for this. It does seem, though,
the Republicans are in a bit of a spot here, too, as well as democrats. If
you support the Transpacific Partnership, if you support fast track, you
can increase the number of Republicans who are voting for this assistance
program, you could still get this through next week. Do you think
Republicans at all might reconsider their positions on that?

REP. CHARLIE DENT (R), PENNSYLVANIA: I do actually, Steve. And thanks for
having me on the show again. Trade adjustment assistance is a priority for
the Democratic Party. I supported it historically, too. Certainly workers
who have been impacted by trade or they have been displaced or dislocated,
they need some assistance. On balance, trade is a benefit. But clearly I
believe the number of Democrats and Republicans are going to need to
revisit their position on trade adjustment assistance. If they don`t, this
will seriously undermine American leadership throughout the world.
Champagne corks will be popping in China. China wants this fast track
authority to be defeated because China wants to write the rules of the road
for trade globally, particularly in the Pacific Rim. The question is, will
America lead or will China lead? I`m for America.

KORNACKI: Congresswoman Dingell, the democratic leader yesterday, and sort
of a surprise vote, Nancy Pelosi deciding to be against this in the last
minute. There were a lot of people serving in the White House who thought
they had her on their side. She basically made the argument on the house
floor yesterday, that slow down fast track, let`s get a better deal. Do
you think it`s possible to get a better deal on this or do you think just
the idea of a multinational free trade agreement is inherently a raw deal
for this country?

DINGELL: I don`t think inherently it`s a raw deal for this country. I was
somebody, I was not in agreement with my husband on NAFTA. I said, let`s
try. The trade agreement had support by the UAW and the auto industry.
But how did that work out? Well, we`ve had 20,000 more imports into Korea
and they`ve got 461,000. That`s not a fair deal. What we wanted, and the
House would not even allow, is an honest debate on the House floor and
allow amendments that would have enforceable currency provisions inside
that bill. That`s what we`re all looking for. And business is joining
with labor, this is about the working men and women of this country. Since
these trade deals have started going through, do you realize that our trade
deficit with countries that are part of these trade deals has increased by
almost 427 percent.

And I`ll use Mexico. The last time and I`m very happy to be on with both
of you this morning and my colleague from Pennsylvania who I have great
respect for. But let`s talk about Mexico. Before NAFTA we had a $3
billion surplus. Now our surplus is -- deficit is $100 billion. That`s is
a problem. We`ve got to be a voice for the working men and women of this
country. My state got lost jobs that have never come back from NAFTA. So
does the rest of the Midwest including, unfortunately Pennsylvania, auto,
steel, manufacturing states. We`ve got to be their voice. We`ve got to
fight for -- we`ve got to have free trade but it`s got to be fair trade,
it`s got to be a level playing field.

KORNACKI: Congressman Dent, I just want you to respond to that. I mean,
you make the case about opposing China earlier, but Congresswoman Dingell
saying, hey, look, Michigan has gotten screwed in trade deals in the past,
Pennsylvania has gotten screwed. What do you say to that?

DENT: Well, what I say to my colleague from Michigan for whom I have a
great deal of respect, let me say this. If we fail to enact fast track,
we`re not only talking about the specific agreement. We`re talking about
Transatlantic Trade Investment Partnership. USEU. Let`s be very clear, I
can localize this if you like. The head of BMW in North America told me
that if there`s a USEU trade agreement, they will expand their operations
in South Carolina significantly. They already have 5,000 people there.
They`re prepared to do 3,000 to 5,000 more. If not, they will move, they
will do their expansion to Mexico.

Now, why is that important? Because all those car batteries are made right
in my district in Berks County, Pennsylvania near the town of Kutztown. I
can take you to a number of places in my district, small companies, very
small companies that are heavily trade dependent. We need to open up
markets. By the way, BMW is the largest exporter of automobiles, cars,
from the United States, more than any other company. So, I`m watching this
very closely. If we don`t pass these agreements we will undermine our
influence throughout the world. I don`t think we can overstate that. But
the idea is to open markets where the United States has trade agreements.

We have 20 trade agreements with nations. We run on balance A, that trade
surplus. Now, my colleague mentioned Mexico again. Let`s be very clear
about Mexico. Trade between the U.S., Canada and Mexico has increased 300
percent since NAFTA, up to $1.2 trillion in trade. To throw those numbers
around ignores the fact that trade has exploded between the three
countries. And 40 percent of what enters the United States from Mexico has
American content. So, I mean, we have to be very clear, very honest about
this currency manipulation. I agree, we`re all against currency
manipulation. But the European Central Bank is doing exactly what our
Federal Reserve had been doing, which is quantitative easing, which is
essentially devaluing the currency. That`s what they are doing. The Bank
of Japan is doing the same thing. The truth is, a lot of people are
engaged in the currency manipulation business. You know, many accused us
of doing it, you know, through our QE program. So, we can talk about the
currency manipulation, but our hands are a little bit dirty, too, with that

KORNACKI: All right. All right. Congressman Charlie Dent from

DINGELL: Can I make one more comment?

KORNACKI: Congresswoman Debbie Dingell from Michigan.

We`ve got to leave it there right now. But as we say, the Transpacific
Partnership obviously, is on life support right now, but it is not dead
yet. Another chance for the White House to rescue it. So, we will see
what happens this weekend, early next week. Thank you for both joining for
us though today. I appreciate that.

Still ahead on this show, we`re going to have more on the breaking news
situation in Dallas. Also, Hillary Clinton marking her big rollout right
over my shoulder later this morning. She`s not the only democrat seeking
her party`s nomination though. We are going to talk to one of the people
who is running against her. And next, there`s only one place in this
entire country where you can play flag football with Marco Rubio and skeet
shoot with Lindsey Graham. We`ll going to go live to that place right
after this.


KORNACKI: Okay. You`re looking there at live aerial pictures, this is
from a helicopter above the town of Hutchins, Texas, that`s about 15 miles
south of Dallas, it`s in Hutchins where that standoff is taking place right
now that we`ve been telling you about between police, and between, and
we`re not sure exactly how many suspects. But of course, as we say,
gunshots fired overnight at police headquarters in Dallas. A chase then
ensuing and now the standoff. We will keep you posted on that as we learn
more throughout the morning.

Meanwhile, back here on the scene in New York City. We`re on the banks of
the East River. There we go. As we switch the shots. You can see
Roosevelt Island right behind us. That is where we are awaiting Hillary
Clinton`s big speech this morning. It`s going to be taking place a couple
hours from now. Many of the republican White House hopefuls are spending
their weekend meanwhile out in Utah at an annual summit hosted by Mitt
Romney, Romney is calling this the E-2 Summit. "Time" magazine describes
it as Club Med for mega donors. Two hundred fifty or so attendees getting
the chance to take part in what are being called enthusiast sessions.
Things like playing flag football with Marco Rubio, skeet shooting with
Lindsey Graham or Sunrise Pilates with Ann Romney and Mark Halperin. The
threat is a mix of business and pleasure. A chance for candidates and
potential candidates to wine and dine wealthy donors who could keep their
campaigns alive.

MSNBC`s Kasie Hunt is in Utah for their threat and she joins us live from
out there right now. So, Kasie Hunt, I mean, this is politicking in the
mega donor ear. I guess you bring the candidates out to an event like
this, they try to make an impression. Who is out there this weekend? Who
is making a good impression on this crowd? How influential is this crowd?

KASIE HUNT, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, Steve, I actually would tell you
that Senator Lindsey Graham has made quite an impression with his mix of
sort of down home humor and directness. We`re actually at the range where
he`s going to be shooting skeet later today. Some of the members of the
Lions Club here told me that they typically play game called, Annie Oakley
where they all line up, and if you miss the clay pigeon, you`re done. So,
we`ll see whether or not they can rope Lindsey Graham into playing along
for that. But that club med image is not that far from accurate. And
they`ve taken over the Stein Eriksen Lodge which is this usually Ski Lodge
in Park City. And all of these donors are, essentially mixing mingling,
rubbing elbows. It`s almost like, you know, there are cocktail parties
with several presidential candidates in the mix.

You know, don`t forget that now one single donor can potentially lift the
hopes of a candidate for much longer than used to be the case in
presidential politics. So, I will say that there was a sense last year of
wonder about who exactly Mitt Romney might come down in favor of. Whether
these donors would go in a big group to one candidate. I think it`s pretty
clear that they`ve splintered a little bit among at least the half dozen or
so potential establishment favorites. Scott Walker, somebody who seemed to
stand out a little bit. Although he got himself into a little bit of
trouble. He talked about how when he met with Prime Minister David Cameron
earlier this year, Cameron expressed some concern about America`s role in
the world. And Cameron`s statement we have just confirmed with down the
streets overnight, they say that never happened and that the prime minister
did not, in fact, say that. So, a little bit of breach of protocol out
here from Governor Walker.

KORNACKI: Interesting, Kasie, also the headline coming out of there this
morning, "The Washington Post" here, Mitt Romney himself making some news
yesterday, making a very direct attack on President Obama on the issue of
foreign policy. Apparently had a PowerPoint presentation where he went
item by item through President Obama on foreign policy and then said to the
crowd, with all that bad news, is it not true that arguably President Obama
is the worst foreign policy president in history, Romney asked. "I think
he is." It`s not surprising that Romney would have that view. Although I
guess in terms of protocol, maybe a little surprising that the defeated
candidate from just a couple of years ago would be that blunt.

HUNT: Well, Steve, I think that this is an area where Romney feels
particularly vindicated and where a lot of these donors in support of
Romney, that`s a theme we`ve heard all weekend. This idea that if Ann and
Mitt Romney were in the White House right now, the United States would have
a different position in the world. And I think you`re seeing that play out
on the campaign trail with the rise of ISIS and the increased focus on
foreign policy among these republican hopefuls. I mean, that was a theme
that you heard over and over again from the podium, it`s something that`s
likely to play as you know a huge role in this race. So, Romney obviously
feeling pretty good about himself in this particular regard. And as you
say, going pretty aggressively after the President.

KORNACKI: But let me bring the panel in here, not on Roosevelt Island, but
close to Roosevelt Island. But let me bring you guys in. So Romney on
this issue of foreign policy, on the issue of ISIS, in other areas, as
Kasie saying feels vindicated, feels the last few years had sort of
validated his critique of Obama in 2012. And I hear this from Republicans
a lot, this idea that they think foreign policy, the Obama record on
foreign policy, by extension the Hillary Clinton record on foreign policy
since she was the secretary of state for the first term, that is going to
be a much more significant issue in their mind in 2016 than it was in 2012,
the idea this might end up being more of a foreign policy election. What
do you think of that?

WALSH: I find that hard to believe. I do think that there are more
issues. But this was litigated in 2012. And Mitt Romney was rejected.
Now we actually have George W. Bush is making an appearance in this race,
not just because his brother is there, but saying we need boots on the
ground to combat ISIS. I mean, there is going to be a healthy swath of the
Republican Party that`s going to say things just like that, and I applaud
their honesty. I think we should have that debate. I don`t think we
should ever be told we`re not going to do nation building and then wind up
in a terrible war. It`s great that these guys are saying that. It`s great
that they`re saying that the President should be doing that. The American
people don`t agree, and they believe we will have an election based on --

STEELE: We need to have that conversation --

WALSH: Right.

STEELE: -- with the President, too, because the President just yesterday or
the day before announced that, yes, we`re sending 450 advisers which is,
you know, another word for military, back into Iraq. So there is a level
of vindication that Mitt Romney and others within the GOP can speak to and
look to in talking about this issue. Whether, you know, the context in
which Iraq is being handled, vis-a-vis Syria and elsewhere or even with
Russia, our relationship with Russia and Putin. And we all remember that
so-called private conversation, it`s like, well, let`s talk and after the
election we`ll work everything out. Well, where are we? And so, I think
Romney and a lot of others have to square that with the American people for
sure, but there is some credence to their argument.

DIONNE: There`s a huge difference in the polls between Republicans and
Democrats on this question. And I think that explains a lot of what`s
going on. If you ask Republicans what are the most important issues in
2016, they put foreign policy way up there. A lot of hawkish Republicans
are very unhappy with President Obama. They would love to talk about
foreign policy. Independents and Democrats are not in the same place. And
of course Republicans want to talk about it more now because in 2012, Obama
really held the high ground on this. Osama bin Laden had been killed, we
were out of Iraq. Now the world is more disorderly. And it`s only natural
the party out of power is going to blame the party in power for some of
that disorder in the world, and they have real differences. But I still
don`t think that barring a big catastrophe, this will be the dominant issue
in 2016, but it will be in the Republican Party.

KORNACKI: All right. And MSNBC`s Kasie Hunt out in Park City, Utah, I
want to thank you for taking a few minutes, getting up extremely early out
there. You`re always doing that for us, I appreciate it.

And still ahead, obviously much more from Dallas. We`ve been telling you
all about it this morning. That standoff between police and a suspect in
an armored van after shots are fired outside police headquarters in Dallas.

Plus, an arrest now is made in connection with that maximum security prison
break in Upstate New York. Why authorities believe the fugitives had help.
We`ll be on the scene of that developing news story in just a little bit.

But first the hard work for Hillary Clinton begins right now. We are live
overlooking the site of her big speech this morning. Stay with us for more
coverage of that.


KORNACKI: We are about an hour away from the crowds starting to pour onto
Roosevelt Island for Hillary Clinton`s launch rally just across the East
River from where we`re sitting right now. Clinton making her first
appearance on the big stage. This campaign the first official event of her
campaign, the first official major event. As Hillary gets set to take the
stage this morning, her competitors for the democrat nomination are already
hot on the campaign trail.

One of those challengers joining us right now, presidential candidate and
former governor and Senator from Rhode Island, Lincoln Chafee. And he
joins us this morning from Providence.

Good morning, Governor Chafee. Thanks for taking a few minutes. So, we`re
sitting here, getting ready for this --


KORNACKI: -- this big Hillary Clinton rally and we`re talking a lot about -
- a lot about the position she`s taken in recent weeks, in recent months
leading up to this today that bring her in a lot of ways closer to the
democratic base on issues like immigration, on issues like voting rights,
on issues like sentencing reform. So, you`re running against her in the
democratic primary, where do you see the opening, where is the case for you
to make the voters and say everything she`s offering is not enough? What`s
it -- what`s different about Lincoln Chaffee?

CHAFEE: Well, the big question I would say is that, here, is the chance
for her to say whether she`s for or against President Obama`s Transpacific
Partnership. And she`s been silent on that. She`s been hiding on this
issue. So, you mention she`s been coming out on a number of other issues.
But completely silent on this big issue of the day.

KORNACKI: What`s your position on it, Governor?

CHAFEE: I`m in favor.

KORNACKI: Governor, what is your position --

CHAFEE: I`m in favor.

KORNACKI: -- on the TPP?

CHAFEE: I`m in favor of it.

KORNACKI: You`re for it?

CHAFEE: I`m with President Obama on this. And a trade is going to happen.
Let`s set the rules, on the environment, on labor, on currency
manipulation, on intellectual property, abuses. So, I`m in favor of what
President Obama is trying to do. And Secretary Clinton has been very
silent on this. So, maybe in this rally she`ll tell the people how she

KORNACKI: I wondered too about, we talked about this in the last block.
The President this week, it was reported yesterday in "The New York Times"
and elsewhere, obviously, more troops, more American troops now in Iraq.
They`re not calling them boots on the ground. What we`re talking about are
more American troops, another American base being built, another sign of a
longer term U.S. presence there, the administration trying to say this is
very modest, this is about sort of trying to preserve order there. What is
your view of the idea of creating another American base and sending a
couple hundred more American troops there to work with the locals?

CHAFEE: Well, the key question here is the question that General Petraeus
asked during the invasion back in 2003, 12 years ago. And things were
going well. He turned to a reporter and he said, "Tell me how this ends."
I mean, that`s the same question. "Tell me how this ends." Here we are 12
years later and there`s no exit strategy, there`s no planning for how we
end this. And I`m opposed to more escalation in the region unless we have
that exit strategy, tell us how this ends. And I would say this in my
announcement speech, this has to be an international effort with the Saudis
and with the Iranians, with the Israelis, with the Jordanians, with the
Turks, the Egyptians, Europeans, Russians, all of us getting together and
trying to have an exit strategy here. Let`s end the conflict here in the
Middle East instead of escalating it.

KORNACKI: And Governor, I want to ask you something about your campaign
here. If you look at the state of Rhode Island right now, the Democratic
Party in Rhode Island, I took a look, the two U.S. senators both endorsing
Hillary Clinton, the two democratic members of Congress both endorsing
Hillary Clinton. The governor of the state, the democrat Gina Raimondo
endorsing Hillary Clinton. Your hometown newspaper, "The Providence
Journal" had this blistering editorial about you when you announced you
candidacy, they said that Mr. Chafee, a republican turned independent --

CHAFEE: All right, all right. Well, the same thing is true, Steve --


CHAFEE: -- the same thing is true with the --

KORNACKI: Well, I just, Governor, I --

CHAFEE: -- Senator Sanders --


CHAFEE: Same thing is true with Senator Sanders. Look, the establishment
is all lining up with Secretary Clinton. But I`d like to say about my
record as governor, over my four years, we had one of the best drops in
unemployment of any of the states in the country over my budgets, my budget
is still in effect. We had one of the best drops in unemployment of any of
the states in the country and we implemented the ObamaCare, the Affordable
Care Act, one of the best in the country here in Rhode Island. So, I`m
very proud of my record as governor. I have some critics that take their
shots, but then they are not accurate, the criticism is not accurate. I
had a good tenure as governor.

KORNACKI: All right. Governor, sit tight if you will, for one second. We
want to squeeze a quick break and you`ll get one more question in with
Governor Lincoln Chafee, former Governor Lincoln Chafee from Rhode Island,
democratic presidential candidate right in the other side of this break.


KORNACKI: All right. Back here with our live coverage just across the
river from where Hillary Clinton is going to be holding her first big
campaign rally a few hours from now as presidential candidate. And Hillary
Clinton`s opponent, one of her opponents from the democratic side, former
Rhode Island Governor Lincoln Chafee sticking with us. And Governor, I`m
going to turn it over to here to Fall River, Massachusetts` own E.J.
Dionne. He has a question for you.

DIONNE: Right over the line. Governor, good to talk to you.

CHAFEE: Thanks, E.J.

DIONNE: A lot of Americans, and I`m one of them, greatly admire your dad.
And he was a progressive republican who stayed in the party for a long time
even as it moved steadily right. I`d like to ask you two questions
together. What was the final straw? Why couldn`t you stay in the
Republican Party, what changed, and how do you assess their side of this
fight in this election. You can be a pundit for a moment for us?

CHAFEE: Well, my dad was very concerned about the changing priorities of
the Republican Party, especially after the elections of 1994. And he even
was threatened with his chairmanship of the environment and public works
committee just because he wasn`t 100 percent on the republican agenda. And
they were trying to take away his chairmanship. So, I know he would have
supported my move out of the Republican Party to an independent. I know he
would have supported my move into the Democratic Party that better
represents his feelings and our priorities that we grew up with, fiscal
responsibility, environmental stewardship, aversion to foreign
entanglements, building the middle class, protection of civil liberties.
These are bedrock principles that have gone away from the Republican Party,
more into the Democratic Party. So, I know he would have been supportive
of what I`ve been done politically. Does that answer your question, E.J.?

KORNACKI: All right. Former Rhode Island Senator Lincoln Chafee.

DIONNE: Yep. I`d love you to attest the other side of the fight, but I
don`t think we have time.

KORNACKI: I would too. But unfortunately, we are -- we are flat out of
time. We`ve just got a lot of breaking news this hour.

But Governor Chafee, I really appreciate you taking a few minutes this
morning. Thank you for that.

And still ahead in the show, more from Dallas, Texas in that standoff
between police and one armed suspect in an armored vehicle. Also, here in
New York City, we`re getting ready to hear as we`ve been telling you, from
Hillary Clinton about why she wants to be the 45th president of the United
States. Stay with us.


KORNACKI: Okay. Back here live on the banks of the East River overlooking
Roosevelt Island. A lot more to come this morning as we get ready for
Hillary Clinton`s first major campaign speech.

But now, to the other big breaking news this morning, the latest on that
prison break in Upstate New York. The two men who have managed to evade
capture now for more than a week. Two very, very dangerous men. Last
night authorities arresting a prison worker who allegedly helped the
convicted killers to escape from that jail. Criminal complaints say that
the woman provided the prisoners with some of the tools that they would
need to break out. The two men making their way out of the Clinton
Correctional Facility in Upstate New York sometime in the overnight hours
last Friday night. Authorities continuing their search in a rural area
near that maximum security prison.


MAJ. CHARLES GUESS, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: We have a message for David
Sweat and Richard Matt. We`re coming for you and we will not stop until
you are caught.


KORNACKI: All right. NBC`s John Yang has been covering this search. He
joins us now from Morrisonville, New York, that is near the prison where
that search continues.

So, John, what was the alleged relationship between Joyce Mitchell, the
woman who was arrested, and these prisoners?

JOHN YANG, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Steve, investigators tell NBC
News that Joyce Mitchell told the investigators that she thought she was in
love with one of the prisoners, Richard Matt. She also had previously been
investigated for an improper relationship with the other prisoner, David
Sweat. She pleaded not guilty last night to smuggling in hacksaw blades,
chisels, a punch and a screwdriver bit into the prison five weeks before
the escape and within the past few minutes we`ve gotten a statement from
Paige Mitchell, who is Joyce Mitchell`s daughter-in-law.

Paige Mitchell said, of her mother-in-law, "She is taking responsibility
for the actions she is being charged with. We will love and support her no
matter what. Not even that situation will bring our family down. That`s
all we have to say about this." Joyce Mitchell also told investigators,
we`re told that she was supposed to be the getaway driver, but then, in her
word, Erin, what we`re told, chickened out. That`s why the focus is still
in this area. They still think they did not get very far -- Steven.

KORNACKI: All right. Thank you, John Yang live in Morrisonville, New
York. I appreciate that. Much more on all of the morning`s big breaking

Plus, here on New York City`s East River, we`re just a short swim from
where Hillary Clinton is going to give her first big speech of the 2016
race. Stay with us.


KORNACKI: Hillary`s big day.


KORNACKI: All right. Thanks for staying with us this Saturday morning.

A big morning of news and politics as we await Hillary Clinton`s big speech
from the park that is right behind us here on a small sliver of land in the
middle of the East River in New York City, Roosevelt Island they call it.
Clinton getting ready to make her case for why she should be the 45th
president of the United States -- what we didn`t necessarily hear from her
when she kicked off her last presidential campaign eight years ago and what
we expect to hear from her today in just a moment.

But we begin this hour with the police standoff in Dallas, Texas. It`s a
standoff that followed this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He hit that cop car.




KORNACKI: What`s believed to be an armored vehicle colliding into a police
car multiple times as gunshots were fired outside Dallas police
headquarters this morning. Explosives found nearby also causing
evacuations in the area.

After the skirmish, police pursuing the suspects over ten miles to the town
of Hutchins, Texas, where SWAT teams are currently engaged in a standoff.

NBC`s Charles Hadlock is live for us in Dallas -- Charles.

HADLOCK: Hi, good morning. We`re just at the outskirts of the Dallas
police headquarters building, just south of downtown Dallas where a
dramatic shootout took place around midnight last night. It was captured
on cell phone video. It lasted long enough for people to grab their phones
and record some of it.

You see police firing on the black armored vehicle, the armored vehicle
ramming other police cars before it sped away. Police gave chase to that
vehicle down Interstate 45 about 10 to 20 miles south of here to the town
of Hutchins where it has pulled into a Jack in the Box hamburger restaurant
parking lot. Police have surrounded that, closed the interstate and are
trying to negotiate with the man.

Now, about three hours ago, the Dallas Police Department`s police chief
said they were negotiating with the man, believed to be a 36-year-old white
male who told police, quote, "You took my child and called me a terrorist,
and now, I`m going to blow you up."

Those were the -- that was the start of the negotiations. Police are
beginning to learn more about the man. He was arrested three years ago
here in Dallas for assaulting his wife -- I`m sorry -- assaulting his
mother and his uncle at their home before speeding away. Their brother --
he has a brother that lives in Paris, Texas, apparently notified
authorities three years ago that the man came there and grabbed a bunch of
weapons and bullets and took off. He alerted police that his brother has
trouble. That`s the last we know of that.

We`re waiting to hear from a police news conference at the bottom of the
hour to get more details on what is developing here in Dallas at the
headquarters of Dallas police.

Back to you.

KORNACKI: All right, NBC`s Charles Hadlock in Dallas, thanks for joining
us with that update this morning. Appreciate that.

And, of course, we will be returning the Dallas ahead for that police press
conference as soon as it starts.

In the meantime, though, turning back to Hillary Clinton, the first big
campaign-style event of her 2016 campaign set to take place later this
morning from Roosevelt Island in New York City`s East River. It`s a speech
in which the former secretary of state, former first lady, former
presidential candidate is expected to answer that simple but important
question, that question that famously tripped up Ted Kennedy all the way
back in 1980, why do you want to be president? It`s a question that
Clinton herself didn`t really address eight years ago, the last time she
rolled out a presidential campaign.


Let`s start a dialogue about your ideas and mine.


KORNACKI: Now, that entry into the race by Clinton in 2007 was a fairly
sharp contrast with her opponent in that race who defined his candidacy
with grand purpose.


not happen. Divided we are bound to fail. But the life of a tall, gangly,
self-made Springfield lawyer tells us that a different future is possible.

He tells us that there is power in words. He tells us that there`s power
in conviction. That is why I`m in this race, not just to hold an office,
but to gather with you to transform a nation.


KORNACKI: All right. Joining us now from Roosevelt Island where that
rally is going to be held, Ann Lewis. She was a senior adviser to Hillary
Clinton`s last presidential campaign, as well as the White House
communications director in Bill Clinton`s administration.

And joining us from Chicago, David Axelrod, NBC News senior political
analyst, former senior adviser to President Obama.

So, David, let me start with you. We ended on the clip of now President
Obama starting his campaign back in 2007. You were sizing up Hillary
Clinton in 2007 as a potential opponent.

You saw an opening. You saw a possibility for Barack Obama to defeat her,
to win the presidential nomination. What is different about the Hillary
Clinton you`re looking at now eight years later at the start of this

getting all Dewey-eyed looking at that old clip. That was a -- that was a
fun day.

Look, it`s a different time than it was then. It`s a different kind of
election. I think the people are looking for something a little different
than what they were looking for then. I`ve always said that the current
president defines the terms of a succession election, and people never
choose the exact replica of what they have. They always look for the

So, people -- they look for different qualities than they got in the person
who is leading. I think she`s better positioned now.

Let`s just start with two reality checks. Reality check number one,
Hillary Clinton remains the most prohibitive open seat favorite in my
lifetime. Her standing among Democrats for all this talk about polling has
been very consistent at about 80 percent favorable. I know you`re a
student of numbers, so you know this. Her ratings on things like strength
and tenacity and, yes, fighting for people like me are quite high.

So, she starts off in a much stronger position than she did eight years
ago. But she ran into problems because she didn`t have a rationale for her
candidacy that was clear and compelling. And, clearly, she`s trying to
remedy that now.

The second reality check is it`s quite early for the rest of the world. We
in our world, we think of every day as Election Day. The rest of the world
is not really focused yet. This is a good chance for her to establish
exactly what her candidacy is about, so every position she takes doesn`t
appear to be a tactical one-off position.

KORNACKI: And, Ann Lewis from Roosevelt Island, we`re hearing one of the
differences maybe is Hillary Clinton in this speech today and in this
campaign maybe talking more personally, specifically about her late mother
Dorothy Rodham, about her mother`s life, about their relationship.

Is that something that Hillary Clinton has had -- has that been a challenge
for her, opening up personally on the public stage?

question, Steve. I think you`re right. As I look back to the differences
between 2007, 2008 and today, and I think this campaign is really being run
so well.

One of the issues, I think problems we had and made for ourselves in 2007
is we talk more about credentials and not enough about connection. If you
want to ask people to trust you to be president to fight for them is what
Hillary is talking about, make the connection. Talk about what you believe
in, how you got here and then why you`re going to be -- and she says, that
fighter for every Americans.

So, I think this is first about connections. That`s what the last month
and a half has been, the ramp up period as the campaign said. Today, with
this big speech, she enters the second stage.

But I will tell you people who listen to her know this is why she`s
running, as she says, because as she says, everyday Americans need a
champion, I want to be that champion. What you`ll know about me is I fight
hard, I don`t give up, I will get it done.

KORNACKI: Ann, you were quoted this week, I think this was Friday in the
paper in "The New York Times" about Hillary`s relationship with her late
mother. You said I think for Hillary it`s about learning. And her
mother`s story is one of the big motivators about who she is. She couldn`t
do much for her mother but she can do more for other children who need
protection or who need a better chance.

I tink that`s a relationship a lot of people aren`t necessarily that
familiar with. Could you tell us a little bit about who her mother was and
what that relationship was?

LEWIS: I think that`s a very important question. Imagine being a 14-year-
old girl raised in this happy suburban home and then learning your own
mother was close to being an abandoned child, was put on a train when she
was 8 years old and sent across the country to live with relatives. When
she got there, they didn`t want her. And basically she survived by
becoming a maid in somebody else`s house, a home where fortunately people
were good to her, gave her an extra blouse perhaps.

So, now you know, and again if you`re Hillary Clinton, you`re 14, you know
there are children who are so vulnerable, who need protection.

And I think what Hillary throughout her life took from this is, there are
children who are in need. I can`t do anything now about my mother`s
childhood, but I can reach out and do whatever I can to see that other
children get the protection, the love, the affirmation that they need.
That`s been a really motivating factor throughout her career from, as you
say, going to college, going to work for the children`s defense fund, going
door-to-door looking for children who weren`t in school, being head of
working on children`s health when she was first lady, a whole string of

Look what she did in the Senate again on children`s health insurance.
These are the programs she believes in it. But it can go back to that
searing personal experience of what children need.

KORNACKI: All right. And, David Axelrod, before we led you go, I want you
to weigh in on something else, your world sort of colliding on a way. This
week you were out in Utah at that summit that Mitt Romney organized.

Mitt Romney then made news last night at that summit attacking President
Obama on foreign policy, calling him arguably the worst foreign policy
president in history, giving a PowerPoint presentation critiquing his
foreign policy.

I just want to get your thoughts on that.

AXELROD: Let me say two things. First of all, on Ann`s points, I want to
go back for one second and say I think biography is very, very important in
terms of authenticating a message.

And this is an issue for Hillary. She needs to be -- she needs to be
authentic, and she wasn`t in the first half of the campaign last time.
After she lost to Iowa, she became more connecting with people, much more
revealing of herself. I think this is an important element of being
successful in this campaign.

As to Utah, I left before Governor Romney`s speech last night. I was on a
panel with Arthur Brooks from the American Enterprise Institute and Mark
Halperin was the moderator.

I deliver my point of view about where I thought the country ought to go
and what needed to be addressed in this presidential race.

Governor Romney, this is not a new thing, Steve, as you know. Governor
Romney has been on attack on this foreign policy issue. I think he`s wrong
about it. And I think a lot of it is rooted in the same failed dogma that
led us into a lot of these problems that we have today in the first place.

So, you know, I don`t agree with him on that, but I do believe we ought to
have dialogue, Democrats and Republicans, and share our ideas and not be
afraid to share our ideas. So I went there in that spirit. He, in fact,
came to my institute on politics at the University of Chicago a couple
weeks ago and was very generous in terms of sharing his thoughts with
students and spending time with them. I think we`ve got to do more of

KORNACKI: Well, something not too surprising to me that he waited until
after you were gone to talk about Obama and foreign policy I guess.

But anyway, David Axelrod in Chicago, thank you for joining us. Ann Lewis,
from Roosevelt Island, former senior adviser to Hillary Clinton, thank you
for taking a few minutes as well. We will see you in a little bit on the
island. We`re heading there after the show to cover that speech.

But still ahead at this hour, keeping an eye on the police standoff in
Texas. Police press conference expected in a matter of minutes. We`ll
bring it to you live.

And next, a leading voice in the Clinton campaign joins us live from
today`s big event to tell us what to expect.

Stay with us.


KORNACKI: All right. A big day here on the banks of the East River in New
York City. We are awaiting Hillary Clinton`s formal campaign kickoff.
She`s going to be speaking just behind us at Roosevelt Island`s Four
Freedoms Park, the venue alone invoking President Roosevelt`s New Deal call
for freedom from want and hear.

Reports that Clinton set to channel her personal hero, First Lady Eleanor

Back with me on the panel this morning, we have with us, MSNBC political
analyst Joan Walsh, editor at large for "Salon", E.J. Dionne, also an MSNBC
contributor and a columnist with "The Washington Post", and Michael Steele,
MSNBC contributor and former chairman of the RNC.

And joining us now from Roosevelt Island, we have Brian Fallon, he`s -- oh,
we don`t -- I`m sorry, we don`t have him. He`ll be joining us in a minute

But before we get to him, let me bring the panel in here. So, we`re
talking about what to expect from Hillary Clinton in a speech today. Here
is one thing that I`d be surprised if it came up.

But we heard one of her opponent say in the show earlier, Lincoln Chafee
when we had him on, he said Hillary Clinton should take a position on the
major thing that happened in Washington yesterday, this vote on the Trans
Pacific Partnership, basically down in the House yesterday. Lincoln Chafee
says I`m for it. Bernie Sanders has been saying the same thing, be for it,
be against it, but have a position. Bernie Sanders says I`m against it.

And we haven`t heard, Joan, a position from Hillary on this.

WALSH: I would be shocked if we heard it today. I don`t know why anyone
would expect her to do that. I think it`s getting to be past time for her
to weigh in.

She`s not going to use this beautiful backdrop to weigh in on the most
divisive issue on her own party which is otherwise quite unified. Why
would we ask her to do that? That`s an example of something her opponents
would want her to do and media would want her to do. But it`s just not
something that`s going to happen on a day when she controls the story.

KORNACKI: Well, we have Brian Fallon I think now is miked up and joining
us from Roosevelt Island.

So, Brian, thanks for taking a minute. Let me -- well, let me put the
question to you.


KORNACKI: I don`t know if you saw earlier, but Lincoln Chafee, who`s going
to be one of Hillary Clinton`s opponents in the Democratic primaries was
on. He said, look, she should take the position on the Trans Pacific
Partnership. He says I`m for it, what`s her view? Bernie Sanders says I`m
against it. She should take a position.

So, what is the position?

FALLON: So, here is what you`ll hear from Hillary Clinton today. She`ll
lay out a bold progressive agenda that mentions a whole range of economic
issues important to everyday Americans and their families. She`ll name-
check a series of issues, including college affordable, wage growth, paid
leave, early childhood education.

And in the coming weeks and months, over the course of summer and into the
fall, you`re going to hear her expand on those issues and lay out bold,
progressive specific approaches on those issues. In the course of doing
so, we think that she`ll be identified by voters in the Democratic primary
and also the potential general election as a clear choice for who is on
your side who are will fight your you, who will lift up middle class
families so they cannot just get ahead but stay ahead.

KORNACKI: So, it sounds like you guys don`t want to go near this question
on the TPP. I understand in the speech this is sort of a long playing
thing. But it is coinciding this major development in Washington, D.C.
And as I say, her opponents are out there saying, what`s her position on
it? And what is the answer to that?

FALLON: Well, Steve, what she has said and she`s been very clear about
this, she wants to see the final language of the underlying TPP agreement.
She`s laid out tests that she would apply once there`s a finalized language
to look at. She`s said that, number one, she wants to make sure it`s going
to protect American workers. Number two, she wants to make sure it`s going
to protect our national security.

She cares about other issues related to this including China currency
manipulation. But she wants to see the finalized language. The issues
debated right now in Congress are related but separate issues dealing with
fast track authority for the president, trade adjustment assistance for
workers. There`s going to be a procedural back and forth between the
Senate and House. She`s focused on the underlying agreement, which we
haven`t seen yet. The final language is still outstanding.

KORNACKI: How much pressure -- I`ll bring the panel back in here, E.J. and
Michael, how much pressure do you think there will be on Hillary Clinton?
In a way as Brian is saying, a lot of moving parts, a little wiggle room
not to come down as definitively as Sanders and Chafee have.

STEELE: I think for progressives, they want to know where she stands. I
mean, the other candidates in the battle have declared at least a position
or a sense of where they would go as president on this issue.

Hillary is not going to be able to -- to Joan`s point -- skirt one of the
issuing broiling within the Democratic Party. This is not just about a
national discussion. This is an internal discussion between progressives
and others within the Democratic Party.

If she wants to assume leadership of the party as its nominee, she`s going
to have to declare at some point -- it may not be today and I agree with
Joan on that one, but at some point in the next succeeding days, I think
she`s -- her campaign at least is going to have to speak to the underlying
issue. You don`t need to see the bill to let me know where you stand on
the idea of what this bill is about.

DIONNE: You know, I remember the 1992 campaign when the issue was NAFTA,
and Bill Clinton didn`t really make his position 100 percent clear until a
couple weeks before the election. It was a funny speech where he sort of
endorsed the idea of NAFTA and said a lot of critical things about NAFTA.

This is an issue that foreign Democrats really splits the party. Hillary
Clinton wants to be the person who stands over the party, uniting its
various wings, but you can bet as you saw today, Lincoln Chafee from one
side, Bernie Sanders from the other side, Martin O`Malley presumably, will
all be at her saying she`s fudging this issue.

So, I think she may get pressure -- she may, in order to respond to this,
have to be somewhat clearer earlier than she might like.

KORNACKI: As the vote showed yesterday, right, I mean, this is at one of
those rare issues right now, where you see, the story is not the Republican
infighting. The story is the Democratic infighting.

Anyway, Brian Fallon from the Clinton campaign, appreciate you taking a few
minutes and joining us on a busy day for you.

And up next, we are awaiting, as we`ve been telling you, a press conference
in Dallas, Texas. It`s expected in moments about the police standoff.
You`re looking live at our Dallas affiliate`s coverage right now. We`ll
have that for you as soon as it begins.


KORNACKI: All right. Looking live at pictures of Roosevelt Island here.
This is an island between Manhattan and Queens in New York City. Hillary
Clinton is going to be speaking very soon out there. More live coverage of
that ahead.

Plus, of course, all the latest on that developing story, the breaking
story of the standoff just outside Dallas. We`re awaiting a police press
conference. You can see them setting up for it right there. We will have
live coverage of that for you as soon as it happens.

Back right after this.


KORNACKI: All right. We`re back here live in New York City. Right behind
us, Roosevelt island, the island between Queens and Manhattan. Hillary
Clinton is going to be speaking there shortly. Her first big kickoff

Joining us now live from that island is Mark Murray, NBC News` senior
political editor. He joins us feet away from where Hillary Clinton is
going to be speaking.

So, Mark, we`ve been talking all morning about what to expect from Hillary
Clinton. It seems to be a more personal speech today than we usually, a
speech where she lays out more of a grand purpose to her campaign,
potentially to her presidency. Just as you look at Hillary Clinton right
now as a presidential candidate both on the Democratic side but also in the
general election, how do you rate the state of her campaign right now?

the Democratic field, it`s important to note, you know, you have Bernie
Sanders on the field, Martin O`Malley, who`s competing, even Lincoln Chafee
now. But Hillary Clinton is almost in an unprecedented state when you look
at her position as a Democratic candidate in this invisible primary. She
has endorsements from about two-thirds of sitting U.S. Democratic senators.
She`s ahead in the polls by 40 or 50 points.

And, you know, people often say she was ahead in the polls back in 2007-
2008. But she in our NBC/"Wall Street Journal" poll from back in June
2007, her lead was about 10 to 14 points. Now, she`s ahead of this field
by 40 or 50 points.

So, some of the political scientists I`ve chatted with say that her
position right now at least in the Democratic field is unprecedented we`ve
seen from somebody who`s a non-incumbent.

Your other question was about the general election. Steve, and that`s kind
of anyone`s game right now. Of course, we have 17 months until the general
election. But so much is going to be impacted --

KORNACKI: Mark, I`m sorry to have to do that to interrupt you. We are
standing by as we`ve been saying for that the press conference in Dallas,
Texas, with Dallas Police Chief David Brown. He`s speaking now. Let`s
listen to him.

picked up a bag, a suspicious package, at our Jack Evans police
headquarters on 1400 South Lamar. This bag contained pipe bombs. And as
the robot picked up the bag, the bag exploded, detonated.

At 4:35 a.m., at the location in Wilmer-Hutchins where the suspect`s van is
parked, our SWAT snipers shot out the engine block of the suspect vehicle
with our .50 caliber sniper rifle disabling the van.

At 4:38 a.m., a suspicious briefcase was reported in the dumpster in our
northeast police substation. We dispatched bomb techs to this location and
this package was cleared and was not a bomb.

Between 4:45 and 5:00 a.m., we began calling additional bomb tech resources
from the FBI here in Dallas and our ATF partners here in Dallas. And we
called state resource bomb techs for additional bomb technicians to report
to this area.

At 5:07 a.m., our SWAT snipers shot at the suspect in Wilmer-Hutchins
through the front windshield -- excuse me, through the front windshield of
the van striking the suspect.

Since that time, we have sent the bomb tech robot that has a camera to try
and confirm whether the suspect is deceased.

Because the suspect during negotiations expressed that the van he was
traveling in was rigged with explosives, our officers are not approaching
that vehicle but instead our bomb technicians are deploying the robot and
plan to detonate specific areas around the van to ensure that it`s not
rigged to explode.

So, we have a planned detonation occurring at that van in Wilmer-Hutchins
with firebomb techs.

The FBI has been called in to assist us in this very complex investigation.
And they will relieve DPD resources as necessary. DPD is also coordinating
with Mesquite bomb squads at the last known address of the suspect.

We also are responding to a caller who called in to WFAA, disguising their
voice and claiming to have a bomb. Our detectives at WFAA headquarters are
trying to figure out ways to track that phone call.

All of our seven patrol stations have been searched and they have been
cleared of any suspicious packages at this time. Police headquarters is
now transitioning to a crime scene. And we are partnering with crime scene
techs from our staffing and we`re reaching out to help for other crime
scenes in the area to help us collect evidence, shell casings, some of the
bomb detonation materials. There`s video images that are both online with
cameras in the area that we are trying to retrieve video images from and
then will begin to talk to witnesses. And so, there`s a very complex crime
scene at police headquarters.

And soon after the robot clears the van and we`re able to identify the
deceased, what we believe is the deceased, inside the van, crime scene
techs will then transition to Wilmer-Hutchins to collect evidence. Just
looking at and listening to our officers who were responding to the
gunshots at headquarters and gunshots at them at Hutchins, some officers
say we are very lucky.

I believe we are very blessed that officers survived this ordeal. There
are bullet holes in squad cars where officers were sitting. There are
bullet holes in the front lobby where our staff was sitting. And one staff
member just walked away to a get Coke, if they had stayed there during the
ordeal, they would have been shot, we believe and killed based on the

Looking at the front parts of headquarters there are bullets in -- there`s
a police helicopter inside as a museum piece, it`s shot up. The second
floor has bullet holes in it. The information desk has bullet holes

Just preliminary, we believe this suspect meant to kill officers and took
time to discharge that weapon multiple times to accomplish their wanting to
harm our officers. When the van rammed the squad car, that officially --
second, the movement by our officers in seconds saved their lives. If they
had stood still and not shot in response, they wouldn`t have survived.

We have been concerned with security measures at our police facility for
some time. We have just increased over time to $300,000 to make sure we
have enough staffing at the front desk.

But this brings up a completely new perspective on what might need to
happen to ensure that our police officers and passers-by, people coming to
and from our police facilities to seek out help, get their reports.

We need to rethink and relook at security measures in all our police
facilities as a result of that incident. And we`ll be doing that in the
coming days and weeks.

With that, I`ll take questions.

Let`s do it this way, you raise your hand and I`ll get to all of you. I`m
going to try to work my way from right to left if that`s OK.

So -- you raise your hand, sir.


BROWN: As we mentioned initially at the first briefing, witnesses have
told our officers that there might have been four suspects. What we
believe to be true now is that this one suspect shot from different parts
of the front of the headquarters. And witnesses may have seen different
views of the same suspects shooting from various locations in front of

So, again, we`re still in the early beginnings of our investigation. But
right now, that`s our belief, that this was one suspect shooting from
different angles, different positions. Making it appear from witness
perspective depending on where they were standing, that it was multiple

Yes, sir?

REPORTER: Chief Brown, under the FBI or PD`s radar for a while or --

BROWN: What we are learning now and just what we learned earlier is that
there were three family violence cases against this suspect. And there
apparently was some type of custody issue as a result of these family
violence incidents involving this suspect.

We had no other indication of him -- this suspect threatening police
officers or threatening police facilities, although there have been
expressions of threats toward the judges in these family violence cases.
And if you go online and look at his social media footprint, awfully
concerning. But no indication that this would happen from looking back
now, hindsight is 20/20, but looking back at it, we still don`t see yet any
indication that he was planning this type of assault on a police facility.

REPORTER: Do we know if he had a background in explosives or the military?

BROWN: We don`t know that yet.

Yes, sir?

REPORTER: Did he leave any notes or any sort of indication or through the
conversations that he had with your negotiators, any sort of indication
about why he would have done this? And if you can talk about the reports
that they were talking to the suspect, when did those conversations cease
and was there indication to his level of injury from those conversations?

BROWN: This was an on again/off again negotiation. He would get angry
during negotiation and just hang up and stop talking. He would rant for a
while and not really have a conversation with us and rant during
negotiations in Hutchins. And at some point, negotiations just ceases.

REPORTER: On his end, or --

BROWN: On his end.

So, we don`t yet know motive. And, of course, as I mentioned earlier,
we`re not going to send our officers up to that van at this point until we
are sure that it`s not rigged with explosives and would explode upon
sensitive touch, much like the bag at headquarters.

So, we are very, very cautious with the approach. And so, of course, we`re
going to get as much information as quickly as we can, but not at the
expense of officers` safety.

Yes, sir.

REPORTER: Can you tell us more about the van that he used in this? Where
did he get it from? And how difficult was it to get it to stop?

BROWN: We don`t yet know that. The van stopped on its own. And the
engine was continuing to run until our snipers took out the engine block,
because we were concerned he might take off based on his agitation with us
during negotiations.

So, we had to make a call to disable the van. The best way for us to do
that was the shoot out of the engine block.

Yes, sir?

REPORTER: Can you confirm that this is the same man who was arrested in
Paris, Texas, in 2011, I believe? Could be 2013? It could be.

BROWN: We have not confirmed the identity of this suspect. What we do
know is it`s a white male. And we`ve got a height/weight description.
We`re not approaching the van until our bomb techs ensure that it`s not
rigged with explosives.

Yes, sir?

REPORTER: Regarding his claim that police accused him of terrorism, do we
know now, is he referring to a charge of terroristic threatening that was
related to a domestic violence call or do we know, has he been accused of
actual terrorism?

BROWN: We have been, from the very beginning, coordinating with the FBI to
ensure that if there were a terrorism nexus, we would get that information
quickly. We have yet to confirm any of his rants of being accused of being
a terrorist. He doesn`t show to be in our databases on any terrorism watch
list or anything like that.

So, it may have just been a rant. We are continuing to research his
history and so in the coming hours we hope to finalize that he`s not on
there, but there could be something out there. As of right now, we don`t
have many nexus to terrorism with this individual.

REPORTER: Just to be clear, you are researching the identity of the name
he gave and you have not confirmed that is correct.

BROWN: Yes. That that is him, that`s correct.

I`m going to work my way back around again, OK. So, I`m going to start
from the right and go right back around, OK? Yes, sir. You didn`t ask one
on the first round.

REPORTER: So, you haven`t confirmed the name. How was the contact
negotiated with this man on the van? Did he call the police? Did you call
him? And if you called him, you`d have to have a number, and how did you
get that number?

BROWN: Right, so initially he called 911, and left a long rant on our 911
tapes. And from that 911 call, we got a phone number, because we can get
the numbers that`s calling in to 911. And then our negotiators called that
number and that began our negotiations at the scene in Hutchins.

REPORTER: Can you identify him by that number?

BROWN: No. We`re going to have to get ID on his person, fingerprint, at
this point. Yes, sir?

REPORTER: Was there a threat to the PD or --

BROWN: Yes, yes. The rant was about what we mentioned in the first

First of all, that we had police that caused him to lose custody of his
child. Secondly, we accused him of being a terrorist and that he, as a
result, was going to blow us up. And that was the extent of the threat.
There was no mention of the gunshots toward the police facility or the
attempt at killing an officer who had pulled up in front of him ramming the
car during that rant. But that had already happened when he called 911.

So, again, he was just rambling quite a bit. You could tell quite a bit of

REPORTER: Speaking of the officers, was anybody injured at all?

BROWN: No. That`s been the saving grace of this. Where you see bullet
holes where the officer was sitting in squad cars, you see bullet holes in
the doors where officers were standing behind, but no officers injured.
Just been a blessing.


BROWN: No civilians at all. If you are particular with this area, it`s a
nightclub or a bar right nearby, a hotel right nearby, people coming and
going pretty much all night long most nights. And no one injured at this
point other than the suspect.

Yes, sir.

REPORTER: On the detonation, keeping in mind he may have been going off in
this rant, what was he saying he had? And in terms of the detonation, have
you scheduled it yet and is there any concern for public safety of the
people nearby or any need to potentially push back the perimeter and create
some sort of evacuation before you detonate that van?

BROWN: Sure. We have done all of that. He expressed he had C-4 in the
van. And so, that`s been our biggest concern. We don`t want to call his
bluff. Particularly on what`s happened in police headquarters with the
pipe bomb that we knew. He expressed the pipe bomb was there as well at
police headquarters, and how sensitive it was to touch to explode.

Yes, we have taken due care and caution with insuring proper distance
before we do the planned detonation and no, we are not going to be able to
release that information at this time. That`s all based on the bomb techs,
our plan to do it. And so that`s within their purview, we don`t dictate
that nor are we going to try to micromanage that.

Yes, Chris?

REPORTER: How did you make the decision for the snipers to finally fire on
the suspect?

BROWN: This suspect had already shot at our facility, had rammed a car,
shot at officers, two officers narrowly escaping, being shot by the

Then the suspect fled in a vehicle, we chased him, once he stopped, he
swung open a door and began shooting at officers again. Narrowly missing
them again at Hutchins. We exchanged gunfire with him. And the car was
still running.

So, the initial thoughts were, if we were negotiating with him, maybe he
would give up peacefully. I think I mentioned that in an earlier briefing.
But he quickly became agitated. It was on again/off again negotiation.

But when the negotiation was on, it became increasingly angry and
threatening, such that we were not only concerned with our officers there,
trying to contain this scene being shot by him, at a moment`s notice and
the nearby neighborhoods. Taking rounds, based on his violence. And so
our, our SWAT team is very good, the best in the country.

And we depend on them to make the call to protect officers and citizens,
and they made the call and I believe it`s the right call to take the
correct action to stop his violence.


REPORTER: A couple of follow-up questions. One on the 911 call that he
made just to clarify, it was after the initial shooting and two, can you
give us a sense of how advanced the armored vehicle is? The tires
bulletproof? Just as best can you. Can you describe what y`all were
dealing with in terms of the vehicle?

BROWN: Right. I`ll put that out in the press release. I don`t have that
handy with me as far as the descriptive nature of the van. But that`s very
good information, we`ll put that out, definitely.

Yes, James?

REPORTER: Chief, I`m sorry, the 911 call, he made that immediately after
the first shooting? And how long was that particular call?

BROWN: It was fairly long, four or five minutes, it`s a long phone call
when he`s just talking. We`re not engaging in the conversation with him.
We`re just asking, who is he, what is he talking about? It was very high-
pitched anger toward the police department, to our police officers.

And so, he was very expressive of his intention on committing violence
against our officers, against our facility. And he had planted packages to
explode upon touch.

One of our officers who were searching, we identify five different
packages, only one which was planted with pipe bombs and our officers
really, that were doing the searching, just almost tripped over it. It was
in the middle of the night. It was still dark. If he would have touched
it, he wouldn`t have survived.

So, another one of those things that happen, throughout this whole ordeal
where there but for the grace, we barely survived the intent of this

Yes, James?

REPORTER: OK, Chief, you talk about pipe bomb in one, was there anything
found in the others, as a pipe bomb is relatively crude. C-4 is typically
a weapons-grade military explosive. The Joint Terrorism Task Force we
have, you have officers assigned. Are they here, is this guy on the radar?

You say you know who he is. Just not naming him right now?

BROWN: No. We`ve as much as we have been able to give out all the
information we know. And we try to add a caveat that we may be unable to
determine or is preliminary, might change. So, initially, he told us a
name. But we have yet to confirm. He could have just given out a name and
that not be him.

So, we`re not going to confirm that that`s him until we`re able to get into
that van, and get some ID off of him, get his fingerprints and actually
confirm through that evidence that that`s who he is.

So, we`re not holding back anything. You can criticize that both ways.
But we would rather be more transparent with the public than withholding
information from the public. That`s --

REPORTER: How sure are you that there may be something else out there that
you don`t know of yet? And what are you doing in light of that

BROWN: We`re doing some follow-up investigation. We`re transitioning to
from an active shooting bomb scene to an investigative crime scene where
we`ll come up with those answers to those questions.

But we`re in the transition of that happening. So, we can`t -- know
everything at this point. But when we find out more information, we will
definitely release it to the public as soon as we find out that

Yes, sir? I think somebody --

REPORTER: Yes, you had mentioned this is an area that`s open to civilians.
This was relatively early for a Friday night. How close did we come to any
civilians being caught in the crossfire? And is it clear that the suspect
was specifically targeting officers? Or was he shooting wildly and could
have very easily struck a civilian?

BROWN: He could have easily struck a civilian. But we think he was
specifically targeting police officers. There`s video of people who took
online and put it online, people taking video and bullets whizzing by their

So, it was very helter-skelter for a long while. It was a long period of
gunshots and changing magazines and more gunshots. So, it was a very
active shooting scene when he was at police headquarters.

And he didn`t care that officers, when officers confronted him. He shot at
officers just as freely as he was able to. We believe, at least if our
officers` accounts, that he initially started out shooting at officers with
an assault weapon, transitioned to a shotgun. That`s how determined this
man was to hurt one of our officers.


BROWN: No, we believe at this point -- again, it`s a preliminary and we`re
doing an investigation. But we want to give you information that we think
we know now. We believe he shot first, then called 911.

REPORTER: Shot first at?

BROWN: Police headquarters.

REPORTER: At police headquarters?


REPORTER: And then called 911?


REPORTER: Shooting through the lobby.

BROWN: Yes, yes.


Chief, I was going to ask you, what type of weapon did he use?

BROWN: We don`t know.

REPORTER: You don`t know?


REPORTER: Rough estimate, how many rounds?

BROWN: We don`t know, that`s part of the investigative process. We`ve
been transitioning to that. We hadn`t picked up shell casings yet.


REPORTER: This is far from over.


REPORTER: How relieved are you that you`re having this press conference

BROWN: This has been a very chilling moment. Particularly as you start
transitioning to the investigative process and start looking at bullet
holes in cars and bullet holes in lobby, information center where officers
were sitting just seconds before this person shot. It raised the hair on
the back of your neck pretty quickly. Just thinking what could have
happened, his intent and how we dodged literally dodged bullets.

Thank goodness we`re here talking about all officers are OK.

REPORTER: Do you have anybody else in custody and given the fact that he
potentially sent five or more packages over a couple of locations. Is
there any indication that he may have had, there are potentially other
suspects out there that need to be brought in?

BROWN: At this point, we don`t have that feeling. Again, this is still
early. This is still eight, nine hours into this ordeal, we hope that
that`s the case and that there`s nothing else out there.

But we can`t close that loop at this point. We have to continue to do our
due diligence in the investigative process. Particularly as we look at
trajectory. Look at whether or not people were in elevated positions, or
were they all shooting from all the shots coming from street level.

So we just are not at the point where we can rule out all of the potential
for other people. Other things have happened. We just can talk about what
we do know now. We got this one suspect in this van based on a robot
viewing inside of the van in Hutchins.

REPORTER: And no one else is in custody?

BROWN: That`s right. Nobody.

REPORTER: Had he made threats to judges? Have you all taken steps to --

BROWN: We have.

REPORTER: Make sure --

BROWN: Yes, we have.

Last question?

REPORTER: What`s -- in terms of security, what is (INAUDIBLE) budget
trying to balance not looking too militaristic and security of the
community. I know that was a challenge (INAUDIBLE)

BROWN: Right, that`s way more reflective than I`m willing to be right now.
I`m still concerned about the well-being of officers having gone through
this ordeal. I`m still concerned with the investigative process, making
sure that we close all the loopholes, all -- we run all the trap (ph), make
sure there`s nothing else out there that we haven`t uncovered.

So, at some point soon we`ll be in that conversation. But right now, it`s
not the right time.

Thank you all so very much. We appreciate it. We`ll update you as soon as
we know more information, OK? Thanks.


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