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The Ed Show for Tuesday, June 16th, 2015

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Show: THE ED SHOW
Date: June 16, 2015
Guest: Matt Schlapp, Henry Fernandez, Jeff Gardere, Zerlina Maxwell, Lori
Wallach


ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Americans and welcome to the Ed Show
live from New York.

Let`s get to work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Tonight, the Donald is in.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENCIAL CANDIDATE 2016: I will be the greatest jobs
president that god ever created. I tell you that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had Ed Schultz around and said you were a great
candidate with your experience in business.

TRUMP: I will tell you I appreciate what Ed Schultz said and it happens to
be right.

SCHULTZ: Plus, speaking out.

RACHEL DOLEZAL, FMR. NAACP CHAPTER PRESIDENT: I did feel that at some
point I would need to address the complexity of my identity.

MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST: Are you a con artist?

DOLEZAL: I don`t think so.

SCHULTZ: And commitment issues.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She called the TTP, what she said it was going to be
the gold standard for right now trade agreements. She owned this to some
degree and now she has to try and navigate through it.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I-VT) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE 2016: I think Secretary
Clinton has not made her position clear.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Good to have you with us tonight folks. Thanks for watching.

Well, after two decades of thinking about it, talking about it. He`s
finally going to do it. Donald Trump wants to be president of the United
States. He wants to move forward. He says he can get the job done. The
unvarnished new politician has done one thing on day one. He`s made a very
boring Republican field very entertaining. So earlier I walked up to 5th
avenue, to Trump tower for Donald Trump`s presidential announcement. OK,
it`s showtime. I had the opportunity to bring Donald Trump into the Ed
Show corporate boardroom and ask him a few questions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Mr. Trump welcome to the Ed Show corporate boardroom. We`re
certainly excited to have you here. I know that you talk about applying
for this job in past and you haven`t done it. This time you have and I
think it is going to be a great addition to the field. So, here we go with
a few questions that we have. But first I do want to tell you that I
thought your daughter Ivanka was very impressive and gave a fabulous
introduction. You have got to be proud and I know that you are. We`ve had
a big discussion about jobs in this country. And your party the
Republicans have not done much, if anything, at all to create jobs in
working with this administration. So, you have also said that you think
the unemployment rate is much higher than what is being published as high
as 18-21 percent. So, how do I know that you are going to be able to
create jobs?

TRUMP: I will be the greatest jobs president that god ever created. I
tell you that. I`ll bring back you are jobs and China, from Mexico, from
Japan, from so many places. I`ll bring back our jobs. And I`ll bring back
our money.

SCHULTZ: Interesting. You are that confident. No other candidate is.
And no other candidate has spoken like that. Now let`s talk about trade.
This is something that has really cost our economy a tremendous amount of
jobs. We have lost 60,000 manufacturing jobs in this country over the last
20 years. Can you handle trade? What would you do?

TRUMP: I totally against the trade bill. For a number of reasons. Number
one, the people negotiating it don`t have a clue. Our president doesn`t
have a clue. He`s a bad negotiator. I`m a free trader. But the problem
with free trade is you need really talented people to negotiate for you.
If you don`t have talented people, if you don`t have great leadership, if
you don`t have people that know business, free trade is terrible. Free
trade can be wonderful if you have smart people. But we have people that
are stupid.

SCHUTLZ: China, you do a lot of business with China. In fact the Chinese
ought to love you. You just sold them a $15 million hotel. I can
understand how you might like somebody that has a deal like that. But it`s
been unfair trade. It`s been a serious imbalance. So, how would you deal
with the Chinese as opposed to past presidents?

TRUMP: I like China. I sell apartment -- I just sold an apartment for $15
million to somebody from China. Am I supposed to dislike them? I own a
big chunk of the bank of America building in 1290, avenue of the Americas.
That I got from China in a war. Very valuable. I love China. The biggest
bank in the world is from China. Do you know where their United States
headquarters is located? In this building. In Trump tower. I love China.
People say "Oh you don`t like China. No I love them. But their leaders
are much smarter than our leaders. It is like take the New England
Patriots and Tom Brady and have them play your high school football team.
That is the difference between China`s leaders and our leaders.

SCHULTZ: There is one thing Mr. Trump that crosses political lines as far
as Republican, Democrat, independent. Unlike your brothers in the field
who are seeking the same position that you are, you have a very different
view on social security. And I want to hear it. What would you do with
social security?

TRUMP: We got social security that is going to be destroyed if somebody
like me doesn`t bring money into the country. All these other people want
to cut the hell out of it. I`m not going to cut it at all. I`m going to
bring money in and we`re going save it.

SCHULTZ: Very interesting. You are going to have a hard time to get
Republicans to go along with you on that. Because I know they want to
privatize it but you don`t very solid. That`s going to grab. I think a
lot middle of road votes and Democrats as well. Now let`s talk about the
Middle East for a moment. You have -- this for years. What would you do
with Iraq?

TRUMP: I will tell you this. And I said it very strongly. Years ago. I
said and I love the military and I want to have the strongest military that
we`ve had and we needed more now than ever. But I said don`t hit Iraq
because you`re going to totally destabilize the Middle East. We spent 2
trillion dollars in Iraq. 2 trillion. We lost thousands of lives.
Thousands, in Iraq. We have wounded soldier, who I love. I love. They
are great. And we have nothing. We can`t even go there.

SCHULTZ: What do you think about your competition? Your competition`s out
there. You are one of the last guys to jump into this thing. And you
certainly sound a lot different. What do you think of your competition?

TRUMP: I can tell you some of the candidates, they went in. They didn`t
know the air conditioner didn`t work. They sweated like dogs. They didn`t
know the room was too big because they didn`t have anybody there. How are
they going to be beat ISIS? I don`t think it is going to happen.

SCHULTZ: Mr. Trump, there are a lot of Americans out there who are
concerned about who is financing our elections. The billionaires. You are
in that club. What are you going to do? How are you going to fund your
campaign? Are you looking for donations?

TRUMP: I don`t need anybody`s money. That`s nice. I don`t need anybody`s
money. I`m using my own money. I`m not using the lobbyist. I`m not using
donors. I don`t care. I`m really rich. I`ll show you that next time.
And by the way, I`m not even saying that in a brag -- that`s the kind of
mind set. That is the kind of thinking you need for this country.

SCHULTZ: Interesting. You can`t be bought. Now, what about Obamacare?
The rest of the field has said they are going to gut Obamacare. But you`re
the only one that has come out and said you are going to offer something
better for all Americans and the other thing I want to point to you Mr.
Trump is that your resume is clearly is head and shoulders above the rest
of the field. You have negotiated deals that are far beyond and
unparalleled to anything the other candidates have ever done. Your resume
is more than impressive. Your business experience is impressive. Your
aggressiveness is impressive. And so, we`ll see where it goes. As a
Republican as it stands right now, as a Republican I would say you`re
hired.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Donald Trump. He is in. It is only going to get better from
here. Now let`s get to the facts. I challenge any Republican candidate
for president to tell us that you have created more jobs than Donald Trump,
that you have signed more checks, that you have taken more business risks
and you have done more business deals -- at any level. You haven`t. What
Trump is going to do is he is going to force the Republicans to explain how
they`re going to create jobs. He will, they won`t. And oh by the way, he
has. That is what makes him interesting. He changes the conversation.
And he is a media magnet. How do you keep him out of the debates? You
don`t. Because if you do, he`ll create his own.

Get your cellphones out. I want to know what you think. Tonight`s
question, "As a candidate, is Donald Trump for real?"

Go to polls.msnbc.com/ed to cast your vote. We`ll bring you the results
later in the show.

For more let me bring in Jonathan Alter MSNBC Political Analyst and Matt
Schlapp with us tonight, American Conservative Union Chairman and former
White House Political Director for George W. Bush.

Well, here we go. I think the field`s been boring to this point. You have
a rich guy who`s a brazen straight talker, who Jonathan seems to have no
political calculation whatsoever. He just says it. What`s this do to the
field, if anything?

JONATHAN ALTER, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all Ed, I`m
looking for Trump button. I mean, that was the biggest south paw interview
I`ve ever seen. But look, this guy, to call him a loose cannon is an
insult to cannons. You know, he`s just going to just be firing
indiscriminately from now until the Republican convention and maybe beyond.
So more than a year of Donald Trump we have in store for us now.
Republicans might hope he`s going to go away but he won`t. He will get in
those debates. They have clear thresholds of support in the polls. And
although he`s not very high in the polls right now he is unquestionably
going to go up considerably in the polls.

I don`t think enough to actually, you know, when primaries much less the
nomination. But, he`s going to be a factor all the way. He will talk in
sound bites. They will get picked up on all the news coverage of those
debates. He will overshadow the main act. He is a side show who threatens
to swallow the Republican Party.

SCHULTZ: What about that Matt Schlapp? How do you view it? I mean, I
think Jonathan is very astute in the way he breaks this thing down. The
dynamics of the race changed because he`s going to change the conversation
by what he says. What do you think?

MATT SCHLAPP, AMERICAN CONSERVATIVE UNION: Look, his voice and his
perspective in politics is unique. You know, he`s iconoclastic. And I`m
very happy he`s taking this perspective in the Republican primary process.
I`m glad he wants to be associated with the Republican Party. By the way
Ed, there are a lot of people out there in America who are frustrated as he
is. Who don`t believe America is as great as it could be. They don`t
believe that our economy is as strong as it should be. That we`re not a
manufacturing base as we should be.

And I think he speaks to a lot of Americans and what Donald Trump is
telling those Americans is your home is better in the Republican Party.
And he`s going to scrape it out in his debates I agree with Jonathan he`s
going to make the stage and he`s going to make it interesting. What is so
wrong with our politics being interesting? I have trouble wondering, what
the problem is in that?

SCHULTZ: Well look, I know, you know, this is just my opinion. Most
wealthy people think politicians are crooks anyway. And I think there is a
level of frustration out there and I`m broad brushing. Well, I think
there`s a level of frustration out there with wealthy Americans that think
there`s got to be something better, even though they have got it really
good. I think that Trump comes into this with as I said no political
calculation. And I think he`s going to have to force a reaction from the
rest of the field. Jonathan, do they take him seriously? Does the rest of
the field view him as something as a force to be reckoned with?

ALTER: Well, they are in a tough position. Kind of like when Ross Perot
ran in 1992. You know, Bill Clinton and George H. W. Bush didn`t really
know how to deal with him. Now he was running as an independent. And by
the way if Trump gets enough support in the Republican primaries but
doesn`t win the nomination, which he is not going to. Don`t rule out him
staying in.

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

ALTER: And continuing to run for president after the nominating
conventions. He speaks to a lot of people. It is not just billionaires
who are his constituents.

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

ALTER: If you watch, you know, the way, you know, his ratings have gone,
who watches his shows, he speaks to a lot of blue collar frustration in the
United States.

SCHLAPP: That`s right.

ALTER: Now I happen to think that the people who`re listening to him have
not thought deeply about the issues, because he says a lot of stuff that
just ain`t true. For instance, we don`t have any trade deals with China.
We`ve never had any trade deals with China. So, you know, much of what he
says that comes out of his mouth is completely ridiculous. But I`m not
sure that is going to stop him from getting votes.

SCHULTZ: But we have WTO. The point is we have ship jobs to China.

ALTER: Well, we have the WTO.

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

ALTER: There`s a global.

SCHLAPP: That what he`s speaking to.

ALTER: We don`t know that NAFTA with China.

SCHLAPP: Look, I think what we`re missing here is his constituency is not
billionaires. My guess is the billionaires and conservatives.

SCHULTZ: Well.

SCHLAPP: And the Republicans don`t necessarily line up behind him. He`s
speaking to Americans who`re just looking for good jobs.

SCHULTZ: That`s right. I mean, I want to see Donald Trump and the rest of
Republicans go to Lorain, Ohio where guys have been given notices that
their jobs are going to be, you know, they`re going to be furlough because
their jobs possibly are going to be completely outsourced. I mean, Matt
you have to admit this is a slice of the pie that Republicans have not done
a very good job with.

SCHLAAP: Well, look.

SCHULTZ: And if they can get those workers thinking hey maybe this guy
offers something different, it could be a problem for some folks.

SCHLAAP: Ed, I think that actually you might be wrong. But I think the
American people are going to listen to Republican candidates and hear what
they have to say. It`s not just about trade, which I know you have
criticism of the party for. But it`s also about the fact that are we
competitive with the rest of the world? Our tax rates, our regulatory
state makes us non competitive with the rest of the world and that is a big
problem. When we talk about issues with the climate change and making
energy prices higher in the country, that`s driving more energy jobs
overseas and it`s a huge mistake. America has to get real. If we want to
compete with countries all over the world we have to have competitive tax
structures...

SCHULTZ: OK

SCHLAPP: ... regulatory structures and energy prices.

ALTER: But Trump says we`re getting beaten by Mexico. I mean that just
preposterous. You know and so there is a level of the demagoguery here
which is amusing as long as he`s not actually kind of bending our political
process.

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

ALTER: But what happened today suggest that he`s moving from being, you
know, a source of humor into something that is potentially little more
worrisome.

SCHULTZ: Well, you start right here on the Ed Show fellows. You were
here, I hired him as a candidate. I think he`s ready to go, great to have
you with us, Jonathan Alter and Matt Schlapp. Thanks for joining us
tonight.

SCHLAPP: Thank you Ed.

SCHULTZ: Remember to answer tonight`s question at polls.msnbc.com/ed.
We`ll have the result right after this break. Follow us on Facebook.
Watch my Facebook feature "Give me a minute." And of course you can get
the video Podcast at WeGetEd.com.

Up next, more reaction to Donald Trump`s presidential announcement and his
policy positions.

And later, Rachel breaks her silence. The Rapid Response Panel has
reaction to her views on her life.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And here we go. The numbers are coming in. Here`s where we
stand on tonight`s Bing Pulse Poll. Tonight`s question, "As a candidate,
is Donald Trump for real?"

43 percent of you say "Yes". The majority, 57 percent, no. Not for real.
Keep voting throughout the hour at polls.msnbc.com/ed.

We`ll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. OK, more Donald Trump showtime. I
also ask Donald Trump he`s thoughts on immigration earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Mr. Trump there is one other question that we need to ask you
about immigration and board security. How would deal Mexico and how do you
view that situation as it stands today?

TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they`re not sending their best.
They`re not sending you. They`re not sending you. They`re sending people
that have lots of problems, and they`re bringing those problems with us.
They`re bringing drugs. They`re bringing crime. They`re rapists. And
some, I assume, are good people.

It`s coming from more than Mexico. It`s coming from all over South and
Latin America, and it`s coming probably -- probably from the Middle East.
But we don`t know. Because we have no protection and we have no
competence, we don`t know what`s happening. And it`s got to stop and it`s
got to stop fast. I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls
better than me, believe me, and I`ll build them very inexpensively, I will
build a great, great wall on our southern border. And I will have Mexico
pay for that wall. Mark my words. I will immediately terminate President
Obama`s illegal executive order on immigration. Immediately.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: For more let me bring in Henry Fernandez, Senior Fellow for the
Center of American Progress. Mr. Fernandez your reaction to what you just
heard. First of all the wall.

HENRY FERNANDEZ, CENTER FOR AMERICAN PROGRESS: I don`t know how to respond
to that. Let me take a shot though. I think there is real question about
whether or not he would build a wall very cheaply. He did his announcement
at Trump tower. He was sued at Trump tower for employing 200 people
undocumented from Poland I believe. So he has a track record here which is
somewhat suspect. Beyond that I think we`ve already -- we know that a wall
is not going to stop people from coming here. Good policy does. And we`ve
seen that more recently.

SCHULTZ: Mr. Fernandez, your reaction to his depiction of people who come
to this country.

FERNANDEZ: Wow. I just have to say wow. I mean, talking about Mexicans
and people of Mexican decent as rapists, criminals. Let`s look at the two
large cities in the American that are consistently rank first and second in
terms of being safest. Those are El Paso, Texas, and San Diego, California
both are which are border cities. It is a complete myth. And frankly a
disturbing myth that immigrants bring crime. Quite the opposite is true.
When we look at cities with large immigrant populations, they tend to be
the safest in America.

SCHULTZ: Do you think the Republicans need to distance themselves from
that comment?

FERNANDEZ: I think anyone who has seriously wants to be president of this
country cannot be talking about a large block of the population of this
country as rapists and criminals.

That is disgusting and completely inappropriate. And I would hope that
politicians of all stripes quickly come out to disown those comments.

SCHULTZ: And your reaction to his comment saying that he would eliminate
all of the executive orders that have been signed by this president on
immigration?

FERNANDEZ: I think he`s also flipping and flopping on this issue, because
in the past he`s been both bad on immigration and good on immigration. And
particularly he said in the past, to young immigrants, that he thought
there was a place here for them. The President`s executive action.
President Obama`s executive action what`s called DACA, Deferred Action for
Childhood Arrivals has made a huge difference in the lives of hundreds of
thousands of young people. Young people who have graduated from high
school, who`re trying to go to college. Is he going to send those people
home? That is disturbing. I don`t know where that`s coming from.

SCHULTZ: Is any GOP candidate to this point solid on immigration that the
Latino community would accept and would rally around?

FERNANDEZ: Well, I think we`re actually going to see a real debate on the
Republican side with regard to immigration. I think it will be very
interesting. You`re seeing distinctions between Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio,
Scott Walker talking about candidates who are more likely to be able to
win. These folks are in real different places. With Jeb bush having a
history of being more progressive on immigration. Scott Walker having a
similar history but recently having backed off the history. And Marco
Rubio similarly having kind of flip-flopped going against his own bill in
the Senate.

SCHULTZ: So, Hillary Clinton, now let`s go to the other side, has she been
impressive on immigration? Do you think she`s on solid ground?

FERNANDEZ: I thought the speech she gave in Nevada was rock solid.
Something I think all Americans can appreciate. It is certainly where
polling says Americans are, supportive of the comprehensive immigration
reform. She says she would go further than President Obama did on
executive actions on both his DACA and DAPA program, which have been held
up by the 5th Circuit Count. I think that`s refreshing. I think it be
interesting for a lot of voters both Latino and Asian voters, but Americans
more broadly because American again of all stripes. Even Republican voters
tend to be supportive of a pathway...

SCHULTZ: Trump does to the Republican field?

FERNANDEZ: Well, he -- threw out onto the floor some of the ugliest
statements about immigrants that we`ve heard in a presidential election in
a long time. And so, I think it will start to draw lines. I thought we
would have to wait until September for the candidates to start to push each
other around immigration. Donald Trump threw dirt on the floor and we`ll
see whether or not some of these other candidates are willing to sweep it
up.

SCHULTZ: Henry Fernandez, Center for American Progress, great to have to
you with us.

FERNANDEZ: It`s always good.

SCHULTZ: Thanks so much. You bet.

Still to come, Rachel Dolezal speaks out. The day after stepping down from
the NAACP. The Rapid Response Panel joins me for a conversation on racial
identity.

And the trade fight continues in Congress. We`ll have an updating on the
negotiations ahead and what took place today. Stay with us

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. One day after stepping down as
President of Spokane, Washington NAACP Chapter amid a fire storm of
controversy, Rachel Dolezal has finally broken her silence. Dolezal spoke
with the "Today Show" and joined MSNBC Melissa Harris-Perry to explain her
connection to the black experience.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS-PERRY: And I`ve heard a lot of people ask you the question, are you
African-American or Caucasian. I am not going to ask it that way.

DOLEZAL: Great.

HARRIS-PERRY: Are you black?

DOLEZAL: Yes.

HARRIS-PERRY: What do you mean when you say that? What does it mean to you
to assume the mantle, the identity of blackness?

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, it means several things. First of all it means that I
have really gone there with the experience in terms of being a mother of
two black sons and really owning what it -- what it means to experience and
live black, blackness.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: We`ll unpack that and a whole lot more in our next segment in our
Rapid Response Panel reacting up next. Here on the Ed Show.

Stay with us. We`ll be right back.

KATE ROGERS; CNBC CORRESPONDENT: I`m Kate Rogers with your CNBC Market
Wrap.

Stocks gained ground ahead of tomorrow`s fed decision. The DOW climbs 113
points, the S&P adds 11 and the NASDAQ is up 25.

Housing start fell more than 11 percent in May. However, permits for
future construction surged 11.8 percent to the best levels since August
2007.

And United Continental shares finished down about 2 percent today. United
will end service at New York JFK airport this fall, where it fail to turn a
profit over the last view years.

That`s it from CNBC, first in business worldwide.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And we are back on the Ed Show. Rachel Dolezal broke her silence
on racial identity today. Dolezal says she identifies as black. Her
biological parents say she is of white European decent. She sat for an
interview with MSNBC Melissa Harris-Perry.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: From a young age felt as better as spiritual, visceral, just very
instinctual connection with, you know, black is beautiful. , you know,
just the black experience and wanting to celebrate that. And I didn`t know
-- how to articulate that as a young child.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Dolezal does not align her identity with her biology.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: Certainly that was shut down. I mean, I was socially conditioned
to not own that and to be limited to whatever biological identity was
thrust upon me and narrated to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Joining us tonight for the discussion, Dr. Jeff Gardere a
psychologist, also with us Zerlina Maxwell Contributor to Essence Magazine
and Michael Eric Dyson MSNBC political Analyst and Professor at Georgetown
University.

I want reaction from all of you without really a question. Just your
reaction to what you just heard and what you have seen in heard in the
interview.

ZERLINA MAXWELL, CONTRIBUTOR ESSENCE: Well, I think, you know, I`ve gone
from being sort of joking about the story to being very serious and a
little bit upset about the story. Because what I was looking for this
morning in her interview was an acknowledgment of the fact that her
experience even if she does identify as a black woman, where, you know,
biologically like you said she is not. Her experience is not my
experience. And so she has access to an array of privileges that I do not.
So tomorrow I couldn`t put on a blond wig and blue eyes and say I`m white
and I`m going to live my life as a white person because I identify that
way. And that is a function of her white privilege.

SCHULTZ: Dr. Gardere.

MAXWELL: Her being white.

DR. JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST: What disturbed me about the interview this
morning, look, as a psychologist I don`t judge. But a question was asked
would you do this different? Is there anything you would go back and
change? And she said absolutely not. The reality is hey for me as a
psychologist it`s OK, for you do identify or even over identify this case
with African-American culture. But at the same time if someone asks you,
are you black? And you say "Yes I am black biologically". Or you check
off the box that you are black. Then what you`re doing is your introducing
a lie into the situation. And then when you do that, now you must build a
reality around that lie. And that is where you are on that slippery slope.

SCHULTZ: Also I have to ask you. She`s living a lie. That would be the
clinical analysis here?

GARDERE: Well, let`s look at the flip side of this. There have been light
skinned African-Americans who have passed. They`ve done it for financial
reasons, in order to escape being persecuted and so on. And we don`t give
them much of a hard time about it. But when we do look it from a
psychological point of view we do say it is not the healthiest way to do
this and how healthy and integrated can you be if you are denying the color
or the culture that you come from in order to be fully ensconced in another
culture?

And that is what she says. She says listen I`m not into my European
culture at all. And I know this is a big issue for her parents and herself
and that`s why I think there is a real psychological overlay with this
situation.

SCHULTZ: Dr. Dyson your thoughts on what you heard today.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: Yeah, it is a very
complicated situation. On the one hand, you know, I have empathy for
anybody who makes a choice self consciously to identify with another group
of people especially one that has not historically privileged economically,
financially and certainly racially in this country. So, we`ve got to
acknowledge that.

On the other hand there is an over investment, it seems to me of her
parents in the establishment of her Caucasian identity, which may supply
the backdrop against which this young lady developed and therefore chose
her blackness in interesting ways. And I think both Zerlina and Dr. Jeff
are pointing out, you know, what a lie versus a truth is. But the reality
is Joanne Kapp (ph) said today in the New Yorker "It`s a lie about a lie".

MAXWELL: Right.

DYSON: Race is a social construction a fiction that we generated. And
then she`s lying about the fiction we`ve all adhered to. So, the question
is how do you talk about the truth of one`s own identity and how one
develops an identity? Flip the script. Are there black people who for all
intents and purposes are white? And how is that signified. Well, their
black skin might give then away. They may be culturally eviscerated by
biologically and physically represent as black. So, there is a certain
kind of privilege for Rachel to move in and out of these communities at
will that really underscores the difficulty for black people do the same.

SCHULTZ: OK, I want you to listen all of you do how Rachel Dolezal
addressed discrepancies in stories she`s told about her past. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOLEZAL: Some of it has kind of a little bit of creative non-fiction with
regards to what happened in sequence of events and dates and so forth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Doctor, does this weaken her credibility when discussing what
shaped her identity?

GARDERE: And this is where I think it really hurts her. It would have
been one thing to say this is what I identify with. This is what I believe
I am. But when you start going now into a realm that is certainly a
fictional in this particular case, now you have to build one lie after
another in order to protect the first lie. And it begins to form a layer
of lies. So we`re seeing there are so many, you know, inconsistencies in a
story. So it is hard how genuine she really feels even though I feel that
she is genuine -- really believes that she is African-American.

SCHULTZ: All right.

DYSON: But you think.

SCHULTZ: Go ahead, doctor.

DYSON: Is there a difference between a lie and a mask? Now, I know that
both of them are representations of truths that are being somehow
submerged. But today is the birthday of Tupac Shakur. One of the greatest
rappers ever. And he presented himself as a certain figure in public. In
private he studied Shakespeare and knew range of literature`s that he
wasn`t necessarily able to present in his public as persona as "Fact". So
the question is all of us who manipulate masks self represent in ways that
are deceptive to create a non fiction element that she talk about that
makes us uncomfortable.

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

DYSON: Many people do the same thing. So, the question is how do we the
question is how do we distinguish between a lie and mask and how do we talk
about self representations when it comes to race?

SCHULTZ: Zerlina about the question.

MAXWELL: I mean, I just, so I think that you don`t lie. I mean, I think
that, you know, saying that you are biologically black when that`s not
true, when we can see your parents and look at the DNA and say these are
your two European ancestors who are your parents. I think that`s one
thing. But I also want to just point out.

GARDERE: Sure.

MAXWELL: That one of the things that bothers me the most about this story
is the fact that black women are deemed invisible in so many circumstances.
And so, just last week we were talking about McKinney, Texas and judiciary
belt back then. And talking about the fact that black women are brutalized
by the police officers and bystanders in the same way black men are. And
that story has basically been supplanted by this woman. Who is claiming
blackness as well and so, I think that the privilege she is using to take
up all of this space as we talk about black women, we are talking about her
and we`re not talking about what it`s like...

GARDERE: But in some ways Zerlina.

MAXWELL: ... to experience being a black woman.

GARDERE: But in some ways we fed into that the media. So, you know, I
wouldn`t point fingers at her just for that. But and your point does have
good credibility. But I would say again, the psychological overlay of
this, this is a woman who said in that interview this morning on "Today
Show", my being African-American and I`m paraphrasing, is about my journey,
which I understand, but also my survival. And so, as a psychologist, when
I hear about survival, it tells me did something traumatic happened to you
as the child, regarding your race, regarding your upbringing, and we`re
starting to see the cracks in the story with her parents, with her family
around those issues.

SCHULTZ: Well, the question begs it goes to her upbringing, does it not?

GARDERE: Or I think there is something there...

SCHULTZ: I mean the parents have got hand in this don`t they.

GARDERE: Where there is a smoke there`s a fire.

MAXWELL: Sure, yeah.

GARDERE: The way the parents are handling this now. And I`m not throwing
shade (ph) on the parents.

SCHULTZ: No.

GARDERE: But the fast is there some real dysfunction there.

DYSON: Their accusation of (inaudible) with children as well I think in
there somewhere.

GARDERE: Yeah. And there is some real dysfunction there. And because of
that I wonder if being African-American, I don`t know. I`ve never examined
her, is more about a defense or coping mechanism versus just a healthy
integration of African-American culture. A lot of questions. Very complex
as Reverend Dyson said.

MAXWELL: But I just still think that if she actually is saying I am an
ally to the movement, I am someone who cares very much about the plight of
African-American women. Then I think there needs to be acknowledgment of
the privilege she literally embodied because he can literally go into a
white space and say I`m white or going to black space and claim blackness
in her skin.

SCHULTZ: In her world she`s a black woman.

DYSON: Well, but look.

SCHULTZ: I mean, in here she is a woman.

MAXWELL: But I couldn`t tomorrow wake up and saying I`m.

SCHULTZ: And she has done absolutely nothing.

MAXWELL: Walk around the (inaudible).

GARDERE: And it`s OK for here in her mind to be a black woman but then
don`t take it further and say biologically by checking off the boxes I am a
black woman, because now we go from something that is a reality in her mind
to something that becomes delusional when it comes to fact and biology.

SCHULTZ: All right. Dr. Jeff Gardere, Zerlina Maxwell and Dr. Michael
Eric Dyson, great to have all of you with us tonight. Thanks so much.

GARDERE: Thank you.

SCHULTZ: Still to come, Hillary Clinton takes a page from Nancy Pelosi on
trade. And the cardinals could be caught stealing off the field. Details
coming up. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And the numbers are coming in on the Ed Show. That Donald`s got
some work to do. Here are the results of tonight`s Bing Pulse Poll.
Tonight`s questions, "As a candidate is Donald Trump for real?" Keep
voting until the end of the hour at polls.msnbc.com./ed.

35 percent of you say "Yes", 65 percent not buying it.

We`ll be right back. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And in tonight`s Two-Minute Drill, now there are political hacks
but also baseball hacks. How about this one. The FBI is investigating the
St. Louis Cardinals for allegedly hacking a computer database owned by the
Houston Astros. Law enforcement officials say internal trade discussions,
statistics and scouting reports were compromised after cardinal officials
allegedly hacked the Astros ground control database. Law enforcement
officials believe the hackers were vengeful front office employees in St.
Louis who hoped to wreak havoc on the work of Jeff Luhnow. Luhnow was the
cardinal executive until 2011. And now he`s conveniently the Astros
general manager. So there`s a history.

No, Cardinal employees have been named in the hacking. It is not known
whether high ranking officials were involved in or aware of the hacking.
The investigation began last year after the Astros trade discussion leak
online. The FBI found the database had been accessed via computer at the
home of some Cardinals officials. St. Louis Cardinals released the
statement saying they are aware of the investigation and are fully
cooperating authorities. The teams were, of course, national central
division rivals until Houston moved to the American league in 2013.
Cardinals have made the playoff nine times since 2000 winning the World
Series in 2011.

Meanwhile, the Astros have struggled. They haven`t finished a season over
500 since 2008 and had three straight 100-loss seasons from 2011 to 2013.
Go figure. Stick around, lot more coming up on the Ed Show. We`ll be
right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCHULTZ: And finally tonight on the Ed Show the trade fight in the House
of Representatives will continue for six more weeks. They worked on it
again today. In fact House leaders voted 236-189 on a procedure to extend
the deadline for a second vote until July 30th. Congressional Republican
leaders have been trying to resurrect trade legislation by saying that
they`re willing to work with the President.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER, (R-OH) HOUSE SPEAKER: Bipartisan majority in the House
passed trade promotion authority. A free trade is good for jobs, it`s good
for the economy and we`re committed to getting TPP done as soon as
possible. The President and I had conversations yesterday. Matter fact
did several conversations yesterday. I`m trying to find a way the move
ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Key player to the Democrats is House Minority Leader Nancy
Pelosi. She was largely responsible for helping defeat Trade Adjustment
Assistance on Friday, which of course, the Republicans have never like.
Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Clinton seems to agree with Pelosi.
She said Pelosi`s name twice on Sunday in Iowa. However, Clinton still has
not taken a firm position on trade promotion authority, the authority of
the President. Here`s what she told reporters on Monday in New Hampshire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I have said from the beginning, the TPA is a process issue. The
issue for me is what`s in the deal? And I think now there is an
opportunity for the President and his team to reach out and meet with
people who said on the floor, like Nancy Pelosi did, that we need a better
deal, not I`m against it no matter what`s in it or as many did, I`m for it
no matter what`s in it. I will wait and see what the deal is, and then I
will tell you what think about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULTZ: Lori Wallach Director of Public Citizen Global Trade Watch joins
us tonight. The deal, your thoughts on Hillary Clinton`s positioning
herself on this? Is this about the deal or about the authority?

LORI WALLACH, PUBLIC CITIZENS GLOBAL

TRADE WATCH: Well, I think that they`re hard to separate. So if you don`t
like the TPP, which would make it easier to offshore jobs and push down our
wages, then you can`t be very keen for Fast-Track authority because the
whole purpose of that is to grease the skids for enactment of the TPP.

SCHULTZ: What is this extension to the end of July accomplished? Does it
darken the door of those who don`t want the TPP?

WALLACH: Well, this whole fight has been a situation where in the face of
the public polling shows a majority of Democrats, Republicans and
independents opposing Fast-Track, the folks in Congress and the corporate
coalition in the White House have resorted to a bunch of unbelievably
byzantine gimmicks. And the most recent one basically was this business of
splitting up the vote into three pieces which, you know, they got hung by
their own petard. That went down.

So this newest gimmick is basically for the first time in the history of
the United States House of Representatives to take a kind of resolution,
which typically is like putting a vote you don`t like the results of, you
can put it basically in the freezer for two days. It`s called a motion to
reconsider. And that`s a two-day window to come back and vote.

Well, it didn`t get any better in two days. Congress, Democrats and
Republicans and White, are still saying "No thank you". So, what they did
today is they did, unprecedented a deal to have this two-day resolution
stretched all the way to July 30th so they can keep the option open.

But Ed, I would predict the thing that`s more likely to happen and what
folks should be working on their members of Congress, they may just come
back to the House with the straight up vote on Fast-Track without the
worker adjustment assistance that was attached to it. And so, particularly
if you are in one of those districts of those 28 Democratic House members
who voted yes on Fast-Track or if you`re in the districts that one of those
150 plus Republican members who voted yes, you got to get to those members
and say "hey, that was a bad idea when you did it the first time".

SCHULTZ: Yeah

WALLACH: Here is your moment to reverse.

SCHULTZ: Well, that`s a great point. Holding those votes on the second
time around, the pressure is still going to be there. A lot of people are
going to be vocal towards those Democrats who voted, there were 28 of them.
The President got his votes. But the bottom line is I think that they were
loyal to him giving him Fast-Track, knowing that he wasn`t going to have
the authority because of the adjustment assistance.

WALLACH: Exactly.

SCHULTZ: Was that used as a political tool to give them some wiggle room.
But now this narrows it down.

WALLACH: Yup.

SCHULTZ: If it`s into one vote. That means that there`s going to be a
whole bunch of Republicans who are going to go along with helping out
displaced workers and they don`t have a history of doing that.

WALLACH: But they`re not going to vote on the displaced workers. What
they want to do next is just the Fast-Track. So here`s the deal. For all
those members of Congress who voted on the Fast-Track, the 28 Democrats who
voted yes, the 189 Republicans who voted yes. When they voted yes on
Friday, they already knew that vote.

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

WALLACH: Was not going to send Fast-Track to the President`s desk because
the first vote, which failed had already tanked (ph) it. So this is our
chance to go back to them and say "Hey, this isn`t the do-over, this is the
real vote."

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

WALLACH: If you are for my job, vote no.

SCHULTZ: So you`re banking on some of those 28 reversing course?

WALLACH: and or some of the 189 Republicans. Because a bunch of them are
very conservative members who told their constituents that they were not
going to do this...

SCHULTZ: Yeah.

WALLACH: ... blank check authority. And then, you know, it didn`t matter
any more. Like an advisory vote. So if they voted yes after they had
basically brought down the bill, it could not have so much heat on them.
When it comes it`s going to matter.

SCHULTZ: The fear here is that all of these minutiae could get lost in a
long hot summer. That`s the danger in all of this, so

WALLACH: No on Fast-Track so we have to tell our members of Congress over
and over.

SCHULTZ: Lori, good to have you with us tonight.

WALLACH: Thank you.

SCHULTZ: Lori Wallach here on the Ed Show.

That`s the Ed Show. I`m Ed Schultz.

PoliticsNation with Reverend Al Sharpton starts right now.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
END

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