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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, June 16th, 2015

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Date: June 16, 2015
Guest: Sam Seder, Angelita Baeyens


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

RACHEL DOLEZAL, FORMER NAACP LEADER: They don`t know me. They really
don`t know what I`ve actually walked through and how hard it is.

HAYES: Rachel Dolezal breaks her silence and our own Melissa Harris-
Perry is asking the questions everyone wants to know.

MELISSA HARRIS-PERRY, MSNBC HOST: Are you black? Are you a con
artist? Do you think of yourself as transracial?

HAYES: Tonight, an extended conversation with Rachel Dolezal.

Plus, Donald Trump rides his own golden escalator to the 2016 stage.

you that next time.

HAYES: It was a presidential announcement that needs to be seen to be

TRUMP: I will be the greatest jobs president that God ever created.

HAYES: We will have full analysis of Trump`s political theater.

And concentration camps being set up just miles from our shore. Where
is the American response to what`s happening in the Dominican Republic?

ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

For the first since she became the center of a very heated national
conversation on the meaning of what it is to be black, the former head of
the Spokane NAACP, Rachel Dolezal, a woman born to white parents but who
identifies as black, is telling her side of the story in this exclusive
interview with Melissa Harris-Perry.


HARRIS-PERRY: I`ve heard a lot of people ask you the question, are
you African-American or Caucasian? I am not going to ask it that way.

DOLEZAL: Thanks.

HARRIS-PERRY: Are you black?


HARRIS-PERRY: What do you mean when you say that? What does it mean
to you to assume the mantle, the identity of blackness?

DOLEZAL: Well, it means several things.

First of all, it means that I have really gone there with the
experience in terms of being a mother of two black sons and really owning
what it -- what it means to experience and live black -- blackness. And --
so, that`s one aspect.

Another aspect would be that I -- from a very young age, felt -- I
don`t know if it was spiritual, visceral, just very instinctual connection
with black is beautiful, you know, just the black experience and wanting to
celebrate that. And I didn`t know how to articulate that as a young child.
I mean, kindergarten or whatever, you don`t have words for what`s going on.

But certainly that was shutdown. I mean, I was socially conditioned
to not own that and to be limited to whatever biological identity was
thrust upon me and narrated to me. And so, I kind of felt pretty awkward
all the time with that.

And I remember when Larry and Ruthanne chose to adopt my younger
siblings, and I -- knowing some of the resistance to just my independent
spirit and creative ways that I wanted to express myself, I was -- I felt
like who is going to be the link for the kids in coming to the family. And
I really felt like a mother/sister to -- from the beginning.

HARRIS-PERRY: So let me first start with the idea of being the parent
of black children. So, my mother is a white woman who interestingly grew
up in Spokane, Washington, who has raised black children, but she doesn`t
herself feel black, right? So, she`s a white woman of doing the work of
parenting black children.

Help me to understand why you see a distinction between on the one
hand being a white person raising and rearing black children, whether those
children are initially your siblings, or whether your bio children, whether
they`re your adopted children, all the different ways we make family,
versus feeling in your own skin, in your own personhood that you are,
yourself, black.

DOLEZAL: Right. I felt very isolated with my identity virtually my
entire life, that nobody really got it, and that I didn`t really have the
personal agency to express it. And certainly, I kind of imagined that
maybe at some point, especially, you know, first after the kids graduated
from high school and in their adult stride, that maybe I`d be able to
really process that, own it publicly and discuss the kind of complexity.

But certainly it`s -- you know, I wasn`t expecting it to be thrust
upon me right now. So --

HARRIS-PERRY: When you talk about -- when you respond to my
questions, are you black and your response is yes, there are listeners who
are enraged. Not confused, enraged. And many of those listeners, many of
those observers who are angry are black women.

Can understand that anger?

DOLEZAL: Yes. And I would say in a -- stepping outside of myself, I
would probably be enraged. I would be like what the -- this person, how
dare she claim this.

But those -- they don`t know me. They really don`t know what I`ve
actually walked through and how hard it is. This has not been something
that just is a casual, you know, come and go sort of identity, you know, or
an identity crisis or something to fade away. People have asked like, so,
are you going to go back to being white? If you`re rejected by the black
community, what do you do?

I`ll be me. I`ll be me. Because I -- you know, I feel like at the
same time I never want to be a liability to the cause. And I take that
very seriously and in consideration. There`s so many to just process with
sort of going from being celebrated as a black woman and loving how that
feels by all the students, my mentor and, like, feeling like, all right, I
can be me and they get me and I get them and we talk about, you know, yeah,
you know, just Iggy Azalea and cultural appropriation and all these things.
I teacher race culture classes, black feminism.

HARRIS-PERRY: So you have a critique of racial appropriation.

DOLEZAL: Absolutely.

HARRIS-PERRY: Because you are currently being criticized for being a
racial appropriator.

DOLEZAL: Right. And I get it. I get it.

HARRIS-PERRY: In what ways have you profited directly from blackness
which is undoubtedly the question people are saying, well, you took a job.
How much do you get paid as the NAACP of Spokane?

DOLEZAL: Nothing. It`s unpaid. It`s like the NAACP is a completely
unpaid position or organization, except for the national offices. So, even
the board of directors on the national level is unpaid. So, it`s a
volunteer position.

HARRIS-PERRY: And how much are you paid for your role on the police
accountability board?

DOLEZAL: Nothing.

HARRIS-PERRY: When I asked you are you black and you affirmed, yes,
that you are, and you explained to me what blackness is, for many people,
race and I -- for more people that I expected, race is based in some set of
biological realities.


HARRIS-PERRY: And that it has everything to do with parentage.

DOLEZAL: Uh-huh.

HARRIS-PERRY: When you talk about the people who are your parents,
who are you talking about?

DOLEZAL: Well, if I`m talking about mom and dad, I don`t really have
a -- a mom figure in my life right now. I have a dad and I`ve talked about
him and -- or that`s been -- that was the three-second pause was when his
picture was pulled out, is this your father? Are you African-American?


REPORTER: I was wondering if your dad really is an African-American

DOLEZAL: That is a very -- I mean, I don`t know what you`re implying.

REPORTER: Are you African-American?

DOLEZAL: I don`t -- I don`t understand the question.

REPORTER: Are your parents -- are they white?


DOLEZAL: Everything from all the related events flooded my mind and I
was like, OK, this is not about me. Now is the time for no comment because
I need to step back and see who is really going to be affected by what I
say right now.

And so, I do acknowledge that the people that raised me are Larry and
Ruthanne. I do not feel like they are my mom and dad. And I do think that
hopefully, even if I`m -- you know, judged or be that confusion or angry
about how I identify, I hope that people can understand that family is

Those same people have probably nephews, cousins, maybe have somebody
that they identify as yes, that`s my family, but, you know, they might not
be biologically family.

HARRIS-PERRY: So you told stories about your dad and his exit from
the south. When you were telling that story, who are you telling that
story about? And is it a true story of the person that you`re telling it

DOLEZAL: Yes. Albert Wilkerson is who that story is about. And he`s
amazing, absolutely amazing.

HARRIS-PERRY: What about the stories of your birth origins? That you
were born in a teepee, that you spent time living in South Africa, that --
because what you said here, and I think it`s an interesting point, that
your racial identity becomes tied up with your credibility and your
credibility is tied up with your capacity to be an advocate.

So, I`m asking these questions in part because I want you to be able
to help us understand the credibility part.

DOLEZAL: Right. And so, some of that has gotten to be really stirred
up in a soup. So, to clarify, some of it has kind of been a little
creative nonfiction with regard to what happened and the sequence of events
and dates and so forth.

And I`m not sure, yes, I`ve never seen pictures of Ruthanne be
pregnant with me. And the birth certificate is a month and a half after I
was actually born. Yes, they were living in a teepee and building a house
when I was actually born. I actually remember where the teepee was right -
- next to the -- or across the road from the house. And yes, I had a
recurve bow and a compound bow and there was hunting involved.

HARRIS-PERRY: All Montana.

DOLEZAL: Right. In Montana. And yes, they lived -- and so a lot of
times when -- it`s true that my family, meaning my three younger siblings
and Izaiah and Larry moved from Montana to Colorado to South Africa and I
went to under grad school in Mississippi and then I went to grad school at
Howard. That`s all true. That happened.

So -- but then, you know, my family moved here and then did this.
That doesn`t necessarily mean I went each place with them through that
whole process. So, yes, it`s like yes and no on some things, but there`s -
- I get the question of credibility, right? And like I said, I will own
that there have been a few interviews, especially after having full custody
of Izaiah, it became a little complicated.

HARRIS-PERRY: I have been having fights with people in my life about
you, which is an odd thing. I don`t -- I don`t know you except for the few
moments that we`ve been talking, having met Izaiah briefly and he`s just an
extraordinary young man.

DOLEZAL: I`m so proud of him.

HARRIS-PERRY: But people say to me, she`s a con artist. Are you a
con artist?

DOLEZAL: I don`t think so. You know? I don`t think anything that I
have done with regards to the movement, my work, my life, my identity -- I
mean, it`s an been very thoughtful and careful. Sometimes decisions have
been made for survival reasons or to protect people that I love.

And all things included, when it boils down, the entire world could
say stand down, but when it comes to being there for my kids and my sister,
I will never stand down on that. It`s been hard for me to actually have
the courage to be there for myself, because my life and kind of my -- my
past, my journey has been to be so heavily aware of the needs of other
people and trying to organize, strategize and advocate for and protect
those interests.

And so at some point, I`m kind of thrust into are you going to be
there for yourself? Or are you not -- are you going to back down, you
know, stand down, stand up, what`s going to happen? And I really have kind
of taken a personal and an organizational and -- in the last three days.

OK. Here is family. Here is NAACP. Police accountability, my
students, all these things, my work, here is my family and here`s my -- and
then there`s me. And what is in the big picture interests.

And so, my resignation yesterday, I believe -- I really came to see
that and that came from ultimately conversations with my oldest son, which,
you know, he`s like, this is getting (INAUDIBLE) -- it`s like now is the
time when he`s like, you should say something. Like this is -- you know,
and I really, as the local president, have to defer to regional, national
within my -- as I`m wearing that hat at the NAACP. I take that very
seriously by protocol.

And I feel so grateful and honored that the area conference president,
the national president really went to bat on Friday and said, we support
her and her work in the NAACP. That -- you know, that`s powerful.


HAYES: Melissa Harris-Perry is here with me. And there is more to
come of that interview with Rachel Dolezal, including her answer to this.


HARRIS-PERRY: So, let me ask you the question that every black woman
hates to be asked. What`s up your hair, right? So --

DOLEZAL: Well, I`ll talk to you about it.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s right.




DOLEZAL: If I was to drop back into a different moments of when I`ve
either been identified -- including by the police as black, white and
unidentifiable, all three, or, you know, I`ve identified as, you know, in
certain moments different -- different ethnicities.


HAYES: Much more of Melissa Harris-Perry`s exclusive interview with
Rachel Dolezal and Melissa Harris-Perry herself, next.



HARRIS-PERRY: So let me ask you the question that every black woman
late to be asked. What`s up with your hair, right? So --

DOLEZAL: Well, I`ll talk to you about it.

HARRIS-PERRY: That`s right. That`s right.

For me, for one of my producers, this was the moment, she was like, I
can do all of this, I can stretch, I can try to think about racial identity
in this more socially constructive way, but I cannot with the hair, because
hair goes to this -- even if race is not biological, the experiences of
being black girls dealing with the physiological realities of the
difficulty of black hair, man, they just -- they feel like core pain. So
talk to me about your hair, your hair choices and also the ways in which
you -- you have talked and had a kind of discursive relationship with black

DOLEZAL: Yes. Well, my hair journey has been interesting.
Certainly, I`ve gotten the whole TSA. You know, but there`s so much of it
we have to search it. You know, the twist out, the dreads, whatever.

HARRIS-PERRY: I`ve got to pause. I want more, but I want you to stop
with the TSA thing for just one second because literally my producer said
to me -- and so I want you to address this.


HARRIS-PERRY: She says -- she says every time that happens to her in
the TSA and they`re in her hair, she feels deeply, profoundly violated.

DOLEZAL: Absolutely.

HARRIS-PERRY: And she said she probably likes it because it confirms
her black or racial identity.

DOLEZAL: Hell no. Hell no. Get your hands out of my hair. And no,
like I don`t -- no, no.

That`s a personal violation. That`s a privacy breach. No.

HARRIS-PERRY: Even if it confirms your blackness in some way.

DOLEZAL: That didn`t cross my mind at that point.

HARRIS-PERRY: Would you describe what you`re doing as passing?

DOLEZAL: You know, I think it`s different than that. And I don`t
even know that I`ve had time to really put into words exactly what -- what
is going on right now, but I think that if I was to drop back into
different moments of when I`ve either been identified -- including by the
police -- as black, white and unidentifiable, all three, or, you know, I`ve
identified as, you know, in certain moments different -- different

But when -- because I do hair, I do a lot of hair for actually black
girls that are adopted into white families. And some of the girls that I
have done hair for were actually at the point where they didn`t even want
to speak to anybody at school because they were so ashamed to be called a
boy and all this kind of stuff.

And I -- in the grocery store, I`m like, excuse me, here is my card.
I do black -- you know, I do hair. If I`m -- you know, it looks like I
will get it from a certain -- it`s just like, oh, of course, because her
hair, her hair. And so, when I`m doing the hair and braiding -- I`m a
braider. At the end of the day, that`s my main.

But for a girl to smile for the first time, to throw her braids and,
you know, she was gone from having her haircut all the way off and just the
trauma, to -- if I can do anything that`s healing, even to one single
person --


HAYES: All right. Joining me now, MSNBC`s own Melissa Harris-Perry.

I have a lot of thoughts. The first thought is you sat across from
her, you interact with her and there is this question of what are we
dealing with here?

HARRIS-PERRY: Well, I don`t know. I mean, I have a PhD in political
science. So, unless you have a voting problem, I don`t want to diagnose
you. I`m not that kind of doctor.

HAYES: You can say as a person interacting with another person who
actually talked --

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure, yes.

I guess what I would say is my experience with her -- and I just want
to be clear. We talked for about an hour. I had some conversations with
her sons who are lovely.

For me, when I meet the children of a parent and the children are like
fantastic and lovely and smart and engaged, that is always going to be me a
positive valance towards their parents. And so, I certainly had that.

And I didn`t experience from her any malice of any kind. There were
moments when I thought, OK, that`s not how I see the world. But honestly,
I have lots of different conversations with many people where I see the
world quite differently from them.

What I experienced from her more than anything was a deep sense of
familiarity. And I think that, for me, is maybe part of why I`ve
approached this story a little differently than some folks. So, again, my
mother is a white woman. She was from Spokane.

I get how one could be raised in a family with black siblings and have
two white parents and yet not experience your whiteness in the way that you
believe that other people are experiencing whiteness, because I have a
sibling with two white parents who was raised in a household with black
siblings whose experience with whiteness -- I don`t think she would ever
say she was black, but it`s a different kind of whiteness.

HAYES: OK, that gets to the nub of the issue here, I think, right?
And part of it, I mean, what you said in the interview, there are people
are enraged at you. There are people enraged in here. There are people
enraged at you for not being sufficiently enraged at here.

HARRIS-PERRY: They told me I gave away my daughter`s blackness. And
I was like, I`m sorry, because I don`t feel threatened by Rachel`s crossing
of the boundary. But parts of what I`ve started to learn and understand is
that -- so, I`m very disturbed by a lot of things we were reacting to in
terms of this biological, if you can`t wave your black parents in a
picture, then I`m not -- if you can`t show me one drop of black blood,
you`re not black. That disturbs me.

Here is what I like. I am so invested in my black womanhood, I am so
proud of the struggle and the joy and the hair and the self-expression that
I am going to police this space because it matters to me. And so, the more
that I can see that policing not as a kind of narrow biological concern
but, rather, as a, like, this is my space, and you have to prove to me that
you deserved to be here.

HAYES: OK. But there`s also -- to me, the issue and I`m an outside
observer in a certain sense in this. And there`s a certain sense of --
like when you asked a conduct, there`s the deception. I mean, my read on
this situation is, as we learn more about the background of this family and
this has now been reported, so I`m not -- you know, her brother is about to
face trial with very serious allegations of child molestation.


HAYES: She has fallen out with her family, it appears, over exactly
whatever happened in that home.


HAYES: It strikes me that we`re also dealing with someone who has
very deep trauma around her family that has taken this emanation.

HARRIS-PERRY: Sure. But I also think that the idea that wanting to
pass into blackness as inherently crazy is something we need to question,
right? Like the idea that oh, my gosh, only a crazy white woman would want
to be black should disgust us. So, let me say --

HAYES: That`s a fair point. You must be nuts because you did this

HARRIS-PERRY: Because who would want to be black? Let me say this.
If I can look at you and say, are you white? And you`re going to say to me
yes, and everyone would be in agreement.

If I go and swab the inside of your mouth and sent it off and they
find a drop of black blood, are you lying?

And I guess the question for us is whether or not we think she`s
holding one set of beliefs about herself while saying another. If you`re
asking, what did I experience across from her, it`s not that, it`s not that
she`s holding one belief of herself while expressing another. It`s that
she legitimately experiences herself as a black woman.

HAYES: Can I ask you about the Howard thing?


HAYES: You talked to her about it. We didn`t play it there. That --
a lot of people -- for a lot of people, that was the aha moment, right?
You sued Howard because they were discriminating against us because you`re
white. This shows that you`re essentially a hustler and a con artist.

HARRIS-PERRY: Yes. Well, she might be a hustler and a con artist.
Let me just say -- that`s completely possible.

HAYES: Right, right.

HARRIS-PERRY: But let me say this. What she responded to me about
Howard was a general discrimination case. So, my little married to a civil
rights activist kicks in. And what I know is that discrimination cases are
way harder to demonstrate than racial discrimination cases, particularly we
know that federal courts really like reverse racism and discrimination

HAYES: Right, right.

HARRIS-PERRY: So if I am a woman who is pregnant with -- and I am in
a financially difficult situation and I get an attorney and the attorney
says, you know what? We`re not going at this on gender, honey, we`re going
to go on this after race -- I don`t know if that`s what happened. I`m just
saying, she`s a bit of Rorschach test.

If you look at her and you want to believe she is a hustler, you will
see a hustler. If you look at her and you want to see somebody struggling
through the complexities of life for a lot of us struggle through, you
might see that.

HAYES: Melissa Harris-Perry, thank you for being here. And thanks
for the fantastic interview.


HAYES: Great to see you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Thank you. Good to see you.

HAYES: I missed you.

HARRIS-PERRY: Very, very nice to see you. Come back weekend, hang
out with us.

HAYES: He`s been flirting with the idea for 25 years and today,
Donald Trump finally made it official. His remarkable pitch to be
president of the United States.


TRUMP: I would build a great wall -- and nobody builds walls better
than me, believe me. And I`ll build them very inexpensively. I hire

They do a website, it costs me $3. I`m really rich. I`ll show you
that next time.




DONAL TRUMP, REST ESTATE MOGUL: I am officially running for president
of the United States and we are going to make our country great again.


HAYES: Now, your first question after seeing Donald Trump officially
toss his hat in the ring today may have been who has Donald Trump in the
All In 2016 fantasy candidate draft? The answer is no one.

But that is not for lack of trying. Trump, along with Sarah Palin
were drafted as kind of a joke. There was a Whammy candidate and players
who got Whammy
candidates had to option to trade them away.

So Sam Seder, who initially traded Donald Trump, traded for a
different candidate, someone originally chosen by Jess McIntosh.


JESS MCINTOSH, EMILY`S LIST: I`m going to go right smack in the
middle and start with four.

HAYES: Number four.

No big names out yet. No big names out yet. It might be a big one.
Let`s see who we got. Oh, familiar territory.

ANNOUNCER: Jeb Bush. His father was President Bush, his brother was
President Bush and now he wants to be President Bush.

BARBARA BUSH, FRM. FIRST LADY: We`ve had enough bushes.

ANNOUNCER: Sorry, mother, it`s time for another.

He is former Florida Governor Jeb Bush.


HAYES: No, because Sam Seder was able to steal Jeb Bush, he`s the one
who scored 100 points on the fantasy draft after Bush`s official
announcement yesterday, and Jess McIntosh was left with Donald Trump, that
was the Whammy situation, who she eventually traded away for Oprah which
now appears to have been a big mistake.

So the All In 2016 Fantasy Candidate Draft Committee was left with a
conundrum. Should Jess McIntosh be punished for her mistake of swapping
for Oprah if that was caused by our mistake of not taking Donald Trump
seriously enough?

No. Tonight, the committee has ruled that Donald Trump will now be
restored to the draft roster of Jess McIntosh, which means she is awarded
100 very unexpected points.

Sam Seder may have a problem with this ruling, so the committee has
awarded him the opportunity to watch the Trump announcement speech with me
in the All In the Movies theater, next.


HAYES: This morning, the Democratic National Committee released a
statement written with seriousness and gravitas the subject demanded.
Quote, today Donald Trump became the second major Republican candidate to
announce for president in two
days. He adds some much-needed seriousness that has previously been
lacking from the GOP field and we look forward hearing more about his ideas
for the nation. Almost made it through.

Maybe the slightest hint of sarcasm right there, but yes, Donald
Trump, real estate developer, reality TV star, unrepentant birther Donald
Trump, answered the prayers of cable news producers and entered the race
for the Republican presidential nomination today, rising to the occasion
with a rambling 45-minute speech was a glorious display of pure
unadulterated Trumpiness.

It was amazing political theater, the kind that makes you want to go
to the movies. That`s exactly why I`m sitting here with friend of the
show, fantasy draft competitor, MSNBC contributor Sam Seder.

SAM SEDER, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you. I`m very...


TRUMP: Wow. Whoa. That some group of people, thousands. So nice.
Thank you very much. That`s really nice. Thank you.

It`s great to be at Trump Tower. It`s great to be in a wonderful city
New York...

HAYES: Plug right away.

TRUMP: And it`s an honor to have everybody here. This is beyond
anybody`s expectations. There`s been no crowd like this. And I can tell

HAYES: No crowd like this.

SEDER: No. Exactly, this is a fully paid for crowd.

TRUMP: ...air conditioner didn`t work. They sweated like dogs. They
didn`t know the room was too big because they didn`t have anybody there.
How are they going to beat ISIS? I don`t think it`s going to happen.

HAYES: All right, well so first of all, you`ve got to start -- first
of all, the knock at Rick Perry, I guess, you know, you want him to knock
at Rick Perry.

But he literally starts off by saying untrue things. He says
thousands. There were not thousands of people in the room.

No crowd like this. Hillary Clinton literally had 10,000 people in
New York City three days ago.

SEDER: I think he was saying no crowd like this for any New York
politician in the Republican Party. And that`s true. If you look at what
Pataki had -- how many people showed up for the Pataki rally? Very small

HAYES: This is -- are those real? What`s the deal?

SEDER: I can tell you there`s been a report -- there has been a
report that there were paid actors, literally a talent agency that does
extras had put

HAYES: God, please let that be true. I have no idea. Standards,
we`ll talk about later.

SEDER: I mean, I don`t know. And I can tell you that there`s been a
report that I think is fairly credible and, you know, so -- but we don`t
know and it
doesn`t matter at the end of the day. Because I think, look, this is an
election that is going to be won by somebody who spends a lot of money. And
whether it`s putting people in an audience or buying TV time if it works.

You know, maybe that`s the way he`ll defeat ISIS.

HAYES: Okay. So let`s look at the entrance-- can we roll the
entrance? We`re just going to talk over this amazing entrance. There he is.
He starts. He rides an escalator of glory down.

Now he has-- this has been a perennial thing with Donald Trump, right?
He clearly likes the attention, he threatens to run for President and he
never does it.

The McKay Coppins wrote this great BuzzFeed profile about his sort of
perennial testing the waters just so he gets the attention, and then, of
course, he doesn`t do it.

Why is this happening?

SEDER: I have to say, in the spirit of Donald Trump running, I got to
say, I told you so.

Because I mean, here it is, I mean, the bottom line is sort of, look,
his celebrity career is a little bit on the wing and he has a situation now
where there`s 15 other people there.

HAYES: Wait, wait. Hold on a sec. I love this part.


President of the United States and we are going to make our country great


HAYES: Wait, is this where he does the -- and sound two down.

But I mean here it is. He`s got-- there`s 15 other people who are
going to be running at least. He can`t lose, he`s just going to be one of
15 people.

And I guarantee you when he does drop out of the race, it`s going to
be the Republican party`s fault.

This is a Sam Teeter marginal rewards hypothesis which you have been
The more people that get in, the more incentive there is to get in.

Under Donald Trump.

It`s hard to argue with that.

SEDER: That`s the amazing thing. I don`t know what any of the
Republican candidates can argue with him about except that there`s one
policy that he has that is out of step with the Republican party.

Everything else in his speech could have come out of virtually the
mouths of almost every other Republican running.

The only difference is, he`s not in favor of cutting social security.

HAYES: Okay. But I missed our sort of jovial ridicule, which is

He also is pretty odious in many ways.

SEDER: Yeah.

HAYES: And so let`s listen to this. This is him talking about Mexico,
which is probably his most venomous, odious rhetoric.

Take a listen.


TURMP: Mexico sends its people, they`re not sending their best.

They`re not sending you.

They`re not sending you.

They`re sending people that have lots of problems and they`re bringing
those problems with us. They`re bringing drugs, they`re bringing crime,
their rapists.
And some, I assume, are good people.


HAYES: Really got the nose up on that. Drugs, crime, rapists, some
good people.

But I mean look, just so we`re clear, that`s a disgusting thing to
say. It`s offensive and it`s --

SEDER: It`s demented.

HAYES: Not sending their best.

SEDER: He`s spending something like half a million dollars to write a
full page about the central park five, five kids at the time who ended up
being vindicated. He resented the fact that even though they spent years in
jail that they would be a payout from the city.

This guy is an odious person. There`s no doubt about it.

I don`t have great thoughts about a lot of Republican candidates. He
is an individual is particularly odious. But if you look at his positions,
he`s just saying essentially what the Republican base wanted to hear.

HAYES: It`s that, through this sort of bizarro narcissistic ego
filter, here he is giving his foreign policy prescriptions which have been
very popular at least in the sort of world that is the Fox bubble.

This is him on ISIS in Syria.


TRUMP: When we left Iraq, Islamic terrorism is eating up large
portions of the Middle East.

They`ve become rich. I`m in competition with them. They just built a
hotel in
Syria. Can you believe this? They built a hotel.

When I have to build a hotel, I pay interest. They don`t have to pay
because they took the oil that when we left Iraq I said we should have

So now ISIS has the oil.


HAYES: I will give him this. This is a consistent point of Donald
Trump`s foreign policy criticism of the Iraq war, that we should have taken
all of their

He`s been very clear on this.

SEDER: The interesting is a new twist. Of course it`s really
problematic when ISIS can build interest free.

But look, honestly, where is the daylight between Donald Trump and
Lindsey Graham on these issues, where Lindsey Graham says anything in the
Middle East with
an Al in front of it is a problem or we`re living in one of the most
dangerous times.

This is the thing Donald Trump is doing. He may be an embarrassment,
but what he`s actually doing is reflecting back on Republicans exactly what
their positions are.

HAYES: It`s the pure ID and it`s also, you`re right, with all
niceties stripped away.

SEDER: Exactly.

HAYES: And keep in mind, to make the debate, he has to make the top
ten. Right now, he`s at 4%. He would make the debate, right?

SEDER: Without a doubt.

HAYES: And he`s going to get up there. There he is, right?

I think that`s why he got in. Because he realized he`s going to make
the debate.

He`s going to get up there and he is going to absolutely be this
vortex of gravity. And this is the kind of stuff he`s going to tell the
progressive people on the stage, he makes more money than them, they should
all shut up, like he told us today.

SEDER: Absolutely.


TRUMP: Big accounting firm, one of the most highly respected.
$9,240,000,000. And I have liabilities of about $500. That`s long term
debt, very low interest rates. In fact, one of the big banks came to me and
said, Donald, you
don`t have enough borrowing. Could we loan you $4 billion?

I said, I don`t know need it. I don`t want it. And I`ve been there. I
don`t want it. I`m not doing that to brag, because you know what, I don`t
have to brag, I don`t have to. Believe it or not. I`m doing that to say
that that`s the kind of thinking our country needs.


HAYES: That is going to be in prime time on Fox with literally tens
of millions of people watching. The center of a Republican Presidential
debate, with Jeb Bush on stage, with Marco Rubio, with Ted Cruz.

SEDER: What are they going to say? I mean, how do they respond to
this? Because they can`t respond to it because everything they`ve been
saying is essentially what he is saying.

The idea that people approve that he`s in the race, what is Carly
Fiorina doing in the race? How about Ben Carson who is polling higher than

I mean, the amazing thing is he`s going to get up on stage and he`s
going to say, I`m a businessman, I have more money than all of you, I
should be President and what are they going to say? You have no
governmental experience? I mean, honestly.

Everything that he says, they are refuting themselves if they

HAYES: If he stays in this the change this will make to the debates
particularly is going to be fascinating to watch, and you know (inaudible)
us absolutely beside himself today.

Sam Seder, who still I think the front runner--

SEDER: I am still a little bit upset about this shenanigans.

HAYES: We`ll deal with it. The comity has ruled.

Up next, California Republican Senator, Judd Gregg fought the math and
the math won.


HAYES: Hundreds of thousands of people are facing being sent to
concentration camps on their way to deportation in a country visited by
over a million Americans every year.

We`ll take a look at the terrible story of what`s happening right now
this week in the Dominican Republic, ahead.



HAYES: The uninsured rate has plummeted to a 15-year low --


It`s gone from 44 million to 40 million, that`s not a plummet.

HAYES: No. Based on the Pew data, you think that`s true?

GREGG: Yes, that is true.


HAYES: Former Senator Judd Gregg and I got into a bit of a dispute
last night about how much the uninsured rate has dropped since Obamacare
was implemented.

The short answer is that I was right and he was wrong.

Polling is the best metric we have to get the overall picture, and
this is what the Gallup poll, not Pew, I spoke about that, tells us about
the uninsured rate over the past few years.

It fell to 11.9% in the first quarter of this year, down a third, a
third since 2013 just before Obamacare went into affect.

I would call that slope you see there on that part of the graph

We reached back out to Judd Gregg to show him the chart and he
responded that it quote, reflects the expansion of Medicaid which is
independent of Obamacare and could have been done without it.

Now, perhaps he forgot that the Medicaid expansion was passed as part
of Obamacare and his Republican colleagues in congress fought tooth and
nail to defeat it, and that it`s since been blocked around the country by
Republican governors.


HAYES: Right now on an island less than a thousand miles off the
coast of Florida, a government allied with the US is constructing what
amounts to modern day concentration camps, and preparing for what could be
an act of massive ethnic

Hundreds of thousands of Haitians living in the Dominican Republic and
native born Dominicans of Haitian decent now face being round up in so-
called welcome
centers and then deported if they aren`t registered with the Dominican
Government before tomorrow`s 7:00 p.m. deadline.

Long lines and red tape have already complicated the registration
process, and now advocates are concerned the government will simply target
people with darker skin or more African looking features.

It all stems from the 2013 court ruling that stripped Dominican
citizenship from children born to Haitian immigrants going all the way back
to 1929.

It`s the latest round in a long history of racially tinged conflict
between the Dominican Republic and Haiti, which share the island of
Hispaniola in the Caribbean Sea.

Joining me now is Angelita Baeyens, she`s program director at the RFK
Center for Justice and Human Rights.

Angelita this story is sort of shocked people`s conscious in the last
few days. It`s really entered the radar screen.

I want you to explain, there`s hundreds of thousands of people and
it`s both, as my understanding, Haitian immigrants, the one group, but also
Dominicans whose parents were born in the Dominican Republic, who simply
have Haitian parents.

Is that correct?

That`s correct, yes, Chris.

It`s very shocking, but it`s not something new. It`s just that
tomorrow is the deadline for the foreign migrant workers. It`s the last day
for them to register and to obtain work permits.

But actually, the situation also for Dominicans of Haitian decent, as
you were explaining, will also become even more critical after tomorrow
when the Dominican government resumes officially deportations.

And there`s a big group of Dominicans of Haitian decent that were
stripped of
their nationality by this decision of the Constitutional Court, and who are
effectively stateless.

So they`re neither more Dominican, but they`re not Haitians, and
they`re completely vulnerable especially to the deportation but other
rights violations, as

HAYES: I mean, this would be akin to if the Supreme Court were to
render a
ruling saying that 35-year-old insurance executive in Chicago, whose
parents were Mexican and who was born in Chicago and who`s never seen
Mexico and speaks not
a word of Spanish, that person is suddenly is no longer an American citizen
and you now must register with the government or face deportation.

That`s functionally what these folks are facing.

BAEYENS: Exactly.

I think that`s a very good example of what this amounts to.

HAYES: So, are they going to be-- there`s hundreds of thousands of
people at issue here. And, obviously, there`s been a long history of
discrimination, racial prejudice against Haitian immigrants, against
essentially black Dominicans who come from that part of the island. There
was an actual genocide committed against them.

What is going to happen to these people? Are they going to be put on
buses back to Haiti?

BAEYENS: That`s actually already happening. And that`s why I said,
you know, officially the govern rule officially resumed deportations, but
it`s already been happening.

And, theoretically, those who are being deported currently are
migrants that are trying to cross, that have reason to cross the border,
but actually, in
those buses of people that have been sent to the other side of the border,
to the Haitian side, there`s even Dominican born people, and many of them
are without documents, or, even those who have documents, haven`t really
had a chance to show proof of their nationality.

HAYES: This is part of what`s so crazy about this story to me.
Because book record keeping has been spotty for a lot of these folks, they
don`t have official

The court ruling itself referenced people`s facial features. I mean,
it basically said in the absence of documents we can make these
determinations of who stays and who goes and who`s a citizen and who is
not, based on what you look like.

BAEYENS: It`s an absurd decision, completely contrary to
international law.
And even to common sense. It`s awful. And it generated a lot of
international and domestic outrage. Which is why the state adopted a series
of measures, but these measures have not been really solving the problem,
because, as part of these group, the Dominicans who were born in the
Dominican Republic to undocumented parents, but were never able to
register, because they were not allowed to or because they were too poor to
do so, they were -- you know, the only option that was given to them was to
apply to naturalized citizenship and basically self-report as foreigners,
even though they`re Dominicans.

And many of them couldn`t do it on time, because that deadline expired
in February.

So we have now at least 100,000 people who are effectively stateless.

HAYES: I hope that folks continue to keep their eyes on this. We`ll
continue to cover it. I think the Dominican -- the government of the
Dominican Republic is going to face some serious international pressure.

Angelita Baeyens, thank you very much.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right
now. Good evening, Rachel.


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