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The Ed Show for Friday, June 19th, 2015

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Date: June 19, 2015
Guest: Heidi Beirich, Bob Shrum, Caroline Heldman, Jon Ralston, Jay

ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: About the shooting of becoming public. The wife
and daughter of Reverend Pinckney were in the church office at the time of
the shooting. After hearing the shots they huddled under a desk and called
911. A stunning scene earlier today as the South Carolina shooter Dylann
Roof appeared in front of the judge for bond hearing. We heard him speak
for the first time as he answered standard questions from the judge.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your age?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re 21-years-old. Are you employed?

ROOF: No, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re unemployed at this time?

ROOF: Yes, sir.



SCHULTZ: During the hearing we also heard victim`s family members address
Dylann Roof directly. The sister after DePayne Middleton made this
heartfelt statement to the court room.


DEPAYNE MIDDLETON: DePayne Doctor was my sister. And I just thank you on
the behalf of my family for not allowing hate to win. For me, I`m a work
in progress and I acknowledge that I`m very angry. But one thing DePayne
always joined in my family with is that she taught me that we are the
family that love built. We have no room for hate. We have to forgive. I
pray God on your soul. And I also thank God I won`t be around when your
judgment day comes with him and may god bless you.


SCHULTZ: Dylann Roof has been charged with nine counts of murder and a
weapons charge. The judge set bail at $1 million for the weapons charge.
The judge said his bail today at $1 million for the weapons charge. A
separate court will set his bail for the murder charges. Roof has been in
protective custody and is currently in isolation. Police official say Roof
is in the cell right next to police officer Michael Slager. Slager is
charged in the killing of Walter Scott. Scott was shot after being stopped
for a traffic violation back in April.

We also learned today Roof reportedly told police he almost didn`t go
through with the shooting because everyone was so nice to him at the bible
study Wednesday night. Two days later we are learning must have much more
about the killer.

NBC`s Gabe Gutierrez has the latest.


GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC`s CORRESPONDENT: Now a clearer picture is emerging of
Dylann Roof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stayed to himself. Really lucky. He wasn`t -- he was
under the radar.

GUTIERREZ: This middle school friend says Roof recently reached out to him
for the first time in five years and made some troubling comments about

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was just saying how he didn`t agree with the Trayvon
Martin case. How he wanted segregation. He wanted white with white and
black with black and he didn`t believe with what the black race was doing
to the white race.

GUTIERREZ: Pictures on social media show Roof sitting on the hood of a car
with a confederate license plate and wearing a jacket with the flag of
apartheid-era South Africa. The family member says the 21-year-old Roof
was a good student when he was younger but while repeating ninth grade at
he`s high school he dropped out and never returned. In February police
arrested Roof outside this Columbia mall after security reported he`d been
going into stores asking employees how many people were working and what
time they closed.

When they approached, police found a bottle of narcotics use to treat
opiate addiction and booked him for drug possession. That case is still
pending but now he is the suspect in a church massacre. A woman who spoke
to a survivor said one of the victims tried to talk to Roof while he was
reloading his gun.

SYLVIA JOHNSON, REV. PINCKNEY`S COUSIN: He just said "I have to do it", he
said "You rape our women and you`re taking over our country and you have to


SCHULTZ: If convicted Dylann Roof will face the death penalty in South
Carolina. Earlier today South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley had these
comments to say.


GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: These are nine families that are
struggling. This is a state that is hurt by the fact that nine people
innocently were killed. We want absolutely will want him to have the death
penalty. This is the worst case that I have seen and this country has seen
in a long time. We`ll fight this as hard as we can.


SCHULTZ: A memorial service is planned for the victims which is expected
to start within the hour. President Obama is addressing a conference of
mayors and is expected to address the shooting and we of course will cover
that for you live here on MSNBC.

For more let`s turn to NBC`s Gabe Gutierrez who was in the courtroom today
in South Carolina. Gabe, this was a rather unusual hearing procedurally.
Tell us about it.

GUTIERREZ: He there Ed. Good afternoon. Yes, extremely unusual. Roof is
still in the Charleston County detention center behind me. He is being
held on $1 million bond. As you mentioned the judge set that bond a
million dollar for the weapons charge. Said that he could not set them on
the nine murder charges. But there was a highly unusual hearing. First,
because the media was put in overflow rooms because so many victim`s
families showed up to this hearing. Bond hearing as you know Ed, many
times are procedural.

But this one started out with the judge making a personal statement really
to the community and saying that Charleston was a very strong community and
asking the public not to think just about the victim`s family in this case
but also about the family of the defendant Dylann Roof and what they must
be going through.

So after that he did some procedural things such as set the next court date
which is for October set another court hearing for February. But then he
allowed the victim`s families to make essentially what were victim impact
statements. Statements that you really only see many times during
sentencing, but in this case they were able to speak directly through video
conference to the defendant in this case and as you played some of them
they were extremely emotional.

After that the judge adjourned. And he did set his bond at $1 million.
But the victim`s family again, they -- struck me as watching this from the
media overflow room is more than one of them said that they forgave this
accused killer as they were able to speak to him for the first time. And
for the first time as you mentioned that we were able to hear him as he
mumbled several answers to standard questions the judge threw at him. Such
as what was his age and whether he was employed or not, Ed.

SCHULTZ: All right. NBC`s Gabe Gutierrez reporting tonight from South
Carolina. Thank you Gabe.

Let`s turn now to Michael Eric Dyson MSNBC Political Analyst and also Heidi
Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center, great to have both of you with
us. Heidi, you first. What do we know about the shooter? Did the
Southern Poverty Law Center have him on the radar?

shooter beforehand. What we`ve come to learn is he clearly is involved in
white supremacist thinking to some extent. You just don`t get, you know,
apartheid-era South African flag and a confederate states of America
license plate without being expose to that - he`s comments in the church
also indicate that he -- inculcated to some extent in the standard
propaganda line that is popular in white supremacist circles which is that
black people are exterminating or genociding whites and it seems to be that
twisted logic may well have inspired him to do what he did.

SCHULTZ: Michael Eric Dyson, your reaction to the governor calling for the
death penalty. And also the development in the courtroom today.

call for the death penalty may fall in an endearing fashion for some. But
for the family that has already forgiven him, Ed, we`ve got to underscore
that. How remarkable, how incredible the humanity of those people to
already tender forgiveness to this young man and to suggest to him that
even though they suggest this that they have in their hearts already
overcome the pain and agony and the anger that they will continually
grapple with. But to offer to him a forgiveness in advance is rather
remarkable and repudiates every stereotype that he had about -- that he has
about black people.


DYSON: I mean, that he says they are murderers and rapists and the like.
And so, I think those developments alone suggest that not only with that
region lurch towards healing but it offers a paradigm of engaging issues,
pain, racial hatred in ways that can ultimately find reconciliation in this
country. Not cheap reconciliation, not rushing towards it. But
acknowledgment that if we hate as Dr. King said "It`s an obstacle for the
person who hates even more than the object of the hatred."

SCHULTZ: Well, Dr. Dyson I want to approach this subject with you. The
racial hated in this situation is clearly unparalleled and the pain and
anguish is something this community of South Carolina has probably never
witnessed. For generations.

DYSON: Right.

SCHULTZ: But yet there is a defense out there to keep the confederate flag
on state property and acknowledge it as the state flag, which we all know
what it represents. What`s wrong with this picture? What is wrong with
this picture? And where should this conversation go? And beyond that what
is it going to take to rectify it? The president said today it belongs in a
museum, not on top of the state capital. Your reaction to all that?

DYSON: The president is absolutely right. And, you know, articulating
that viewpoint is extremely helpful. Nikki Haley the governor of that
state must be challenged. The tears she shed yesterday seemed quite
credible. The feeling, we don`t need a death penalty for a young man who`s
already murdered nine people. What we need to do is engage the kind of
culture of hatred that sustains and reproduces the pathology we saw
manifest in him.

And part of that has to do with the culture that would celebrate a flag
that celebrate of death to those who are racially different and celebrate a
culture of white supremacy that continues to flow in this country to this
day. So it is easy to say "Oh my god he`s crazy, where did it come from?"
No. The real tragedy and the real danger is that this young man...


DYSON: ... was an outgrowth of a culture that produced him. Not an

SCHULTZ: Heidi, your reaction to that. An outgrowth of that culture, a
new survey from NBC News show at 49 percent see the flag as symbol of
racism and 49 percent see it a symbol of southern pride.

BEIRICH: It is ridiculous. The flag has got to come off of all public
property anywhere. Look, this is the flag of slavery and oppression and
the Ku Klux Klan and hate groups. It is almost unconscionable to me that
anybody would support displaying it. Look, you got to remember it right to
do that if you want to put it in on your truck or in your yard. But the
fact that it would on state property, government property dispose to
represent all of us in this democracy is absolutely horrifying. That thing
has got to go.

SCHULTZ: Well, I understand how South Carolinians would say that they want
it recognized because it is part of their history and history teaches us
all something. But it would seem that it would teach us that maybe that
flag doesn`t belong there anymore on state property. Things have certainly
changed and back then it was horribly wrong.

DYSON: Yeah.

SCHULTZ: Someone and this is good. Michael Eric Dyson, this is going to
take some real leadership in the south, where these folks live, for this to

DYSON: Yeah.

SCHULTZ: I mean what is going to change the attitude?

DYSON: See Ed, there are two things here. I`m deeply empathetic with the
push to remove that flag. Because symbols of, you know, racial hostility
and ranker are real. And people rally around those symbols in a fashion
that is quite disturbing and dangerous. But the tragedy is that even when
that flag wasn`t flying, under the United States of American, our old glory
and the flag we have today, so many atrocious acts have been created as
well. So even when we get rid of that flag we`ve got to get rid of
attitudes, disposition, behaviors, habits, practices and world views that
cause some people bad and good because of the color of their skin. Those
kind of things...


DYSON: ... have to be uprooted as well. So, it`s both end. Not either

SCHULTZ: Well, I think you can make the case that the confederate flag in
South Carolina gave someone of a support system.


SCHULTZ: To the thinking of Dylann Roof. I think you could easily make
that case. Michael Eric Dyson,


SCHULTZ: Yeah, Michael Dyson, Heidi Beirich. I appreciate your time

DYSON: Thank you.

SCHULTZ: Thank so much for joining us.

And of course we`re waiting for remarks from President Obama. He is
speaking at the conference of mayors in San Francisco. We`ll bring you
those comments live and also have more panel discussion.

Stay with us. Lot`s more coming up on the Ed Show, right here on MSNBC.


SCHULTZ: President Obama is speaking at the conference of mayors in San
Francisco. We`ll bring his comments live. He expect him to comment on the
shooting in South Carolina. Also Jon Ralston Nevada political reported had
an interesting interview with Hillary Clinton, she talked about trade and
how she would vote if she were in the Senate.

That`s coming up on the Ed Show. Stay with us. We`ll be right back.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. We`re just moments away from
President Obama` speaking at the mayor`s conference in San Francisco. And
we`ll bring you those live. He is expected to comment on the horrific
shootings that took place in South Carolina. Presidential candidates have
canceled campaign events in South Carolina to allow residents to mourn.
Senator Lindsay Graham who represents the state cleared his calendar and
returned home to be with the community. Bernie sanders encouraged those to
make donations to the church. Hillary Clinton called for a national


national conversation about race and about discrimination, prejudice,


SCHULTZ: All of the presidential candidates have condemned the shootings.
The only Rick Santorum tried to convert the discussion to an assault on
religious freedom.


RICK SANTORUM, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You talk about the importance of
prayer at this time. But we`re now seeing assaults on religious liberty
we`ve never seen before. So, it`s a time for deeper reflection even beyond
this horrible situation.


SCHULTZ: There is no doubt as this country mourns what has unfolded down
in South Carolina, the folks who are running for president deem important
for them to step forward and comment on what has unfolded.

Joining us tonight. Bob Shrum Democratic Strategist, Caroline Heldman with
us Professor of Politics at Occidental College, and also Michael Steele,
MSNBC Political Analyst and former RSN chair.

This is a really hard time for those people who`re running for public
office. And you are condemned if you say something wrong and you are wrong
if you don`t say something. Michael Steele this is a pretty untenable
position to be isn`t it. Because you obviously want to say the right
things and convey your message properly. How tough is this for these

you can see just from the Rick Santorum comment how given the gravity of
the situation people feel well that is not this. And so you have to walk
that tight rope a little bit carefully. But I will say this. I think this
affords the candidates an opportunity to show the American people who they
are. How they really think and feel about these types of issues, to get
outside their comfort zone and out of the safety box of political
correctness or campaign structure.

And speak honestly as Hillary Clinton sort of laid out there and other
candidates have laid out there and said we need to have this national
dialogue. Rand Paul and others are trying to move in that direction. So
while there is dangerous, there is real opportunity I think as well Ed.

SCHULTZ: Well, Caroline Heldman opportunity, that is an interesting word
that Mr. Steele uses. President Obama, the day after at the White House
gave his statement and talked about gun violence in this country. Hillary
Clinton was not coy at all about bringing up what we have to do in society
about these frequent shootings that take place. Your thoughts on how they
are handling it?

that both of these people, those elected officials or candidates are
handling it well. I think it is only a controversy if you are not willing
to admit that this is racist. This is a terrorist act driven by racist
ideology. The gunman was willing to admit that. And as presidential
candidates every single one of them needs to step up and say that in very
clear terms.

Black Americans have suffered daily micro aggressions to mass shootings for
as long as this country has been in existence. And the fact that we now
have to have this conversation again and these candidates are worried about
stepping on the toes of racists. I think says a lot about where the
parties, where their dedication is to African-Americans in this country.

SCHULTZ: Bob Shrum, your thoughts on all this? How does a candidate handle

BOB SHRUM, PROFESSOR OF POLITICS USC: Well, I think that you don`t handle
it as a candidate. I think you handle it as the human being.

STEELE: Right.

SHRUM: And I know everybody assumes that if you are running for president
your every moment talking to your pollster, trying to find the right thing
to say is. There is only one right thing to say here. This was an act of
racial hatred. This country needs to come to grips with racism that has
scar America`s throughout its history. And still curses us today. We need
to reach out and begin to have -- and everybody is using the word
conversation dialog. We need to do that. But we also need to be honest
about things.

The confederate flag should not be flying on the capital of South Carolina
or the capital grounds. That is number one. Number two, we should stop
playing to this kind of racial resentment by putting barriers in the way of
people who want to vote and who often find it difficult to do so. And
number three, we have to deal with the kind of poison that we see on the
Internet that can take somebody like this kid Dylann Roof and turn him into
a monster, which is what he was the other day.


SCHULTZ: Yeah, Michael I`ve got to ask you.


SCHULTZ: As a former chair of the RNC and as an African American, how do
you feel about the confederate flag flying in South Carolina?

STEELE: Well, I`m still scratching my head as to why. I understand how
some people feel about it. But I know how the rest of the country feels
about it. And that to me should be the standard, the greater reflection of
who we are. And that flag doesn`t represent that. Let`s put it in a
museum lets talk about as part of our history. But let`s not make it a
part of our future. And I think that that is something going to what Bob
just said that we need to be real about. I would say this. In addition to
what Bob said, I`m less interested in the argument over a flag flying over
a building. I`m less interested in whether or not, you know, this is a
political strategy on voting or not voting.

I`m more interested in the systemic issues that deal with the underlying
issue of race and how white people feel about it and how black folks people
about it. Because at the end of the day, that`s what it`s all about. How
blacks and whites look at each other and view each other in the context of
our living in this country. And then until we`re prepared to sit down and
have that conversation, all of the rest of this is really kind of noise.
And we get upset and we get, you know, we feel violated but we`re not


STEELE: To do the hard inner look, Ed, and say who are we? And why do we
feel this way about each other?

SCHULTZ: Well, the very people we`re talk about. Hillary Clinton, Bernie
sanders, the President of the United States. They are the ones Caroline
that have to lead this aren`t they, this discussion and whether we like it
or not drag this country into a different way of thinking so the Dylann
Roofs of the world aren`t produced by society.

I mean, someone taught him how to hate. Someone brought him to this level
of thinking. He had some kind of support system. And I think you can make
the argument that that flag that flies in South Carolina is part of that
support system. It is an acceptance that what that flag represents is
acceptable in society. So where do we go with this Caroline?

HELDMAN: Well, I would very much agree that he learned this. But I think
it is a myth to think that racists are unusual. We are a white supremacist
society. We are a society in society that on its face values white people,
what they do and their body, their integrity more than people of color.
Not just African Americans but all people of color. We dehumanize people
of color in this country. And so, once a white person recognizes this, if
they are given the opportunity and privilege of education, then it is a
constant struggle throughout the course of your lifetime to overcome it.

And I do think that that flag is very much a symbol of hatred for some it
is a symbol of heritage. But that is a heritage of hate. So the fact we
have a flag of essentially treason flying next to the flag of the United
States just doesn`t make sense in 2015.

SCHULTZ: Bob Shrum after Sandy Hook 90 percent of this country wanted a
background checks. It didn`t happen in Washington. Is this going to be
another incident where as the President says we have the power to do
something about it, or is this going to be one of the incidents that is
going to, you know, go off and spin off into history as a horrible event
and yet we do nothing about the frequent gun violence in America? I mean,
does this play into the 2016 conversation?

SHRUM: I think it will play into the 2016 conversation but I`m not
optimistic that anything will be done right now. I thought it was brave
and sensible and right of the President to talk about this issue the other
day. I think that was his decision. He inserted that into the statement.
But to think that this Republican Congress which is a wholly owned
subsidiary of the NRA is going to move on this is wrong. I mean, you had a
board member of the NRA blame the Reverend who was leading this bible study
for the fact that he was shot. Because in the South Carolina legislature
he had opposed allowing people to carry weapons concealed into a church.

Now, I cannot imagine the horror that could have occurred if people were
sitting around with concealed weapons this thing started and you had a full
scale gunfight. You might not even have three survivors. But I think in
2016, in Democratic primaries this is going to be a big issue. I think
that the NRA will try to use it in states like West Virginia and Kentucky
and the general election to try to defeat the Democratic nominee. But I
think at some point the country is going come to the place where it says we
have to do something. It`s not going to be know, it might be three years
from now, four years from now. How many more tragedies like this do we
have to endure?

SCHULTZ: Bob Shrum, Caroline Heldman, Michael Steele, great to have you
with us on the Ed Show tonight.

STEELE: Thank you Ed.

SCHULTZ: We`ll have more on the political response to this Charleston
shooting coming up.

And later Hillary Clinton talks trade but still doesn`t have what some
people are asking for, a clear answer. Journalist Jon Ralston joins me
with his take after the interview.

Stay with us. We`ll be right back.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. President Obama is speaking at the
U.S. conference of mayors in San Francisco. He`s expected to comment on
the Charleston shooting. Let`s listen in live.


Dennis Johnson would introduce me again. At the White House he had the old
bull`s theme song. And it set a very high bar. As if I was Michael Jordan
coming out. And he is a great friend and very much appreciate him as I do
so many of the mayors here. I saw a lot of you in Washington in January.
I thought I had such a good time let`s meet this summer as well. And this
time I thought I`d though I`d come to you. I want to thank our host San
Francisco Mayor Ed Lee.

He was just in the White House for the San Francisco Giants` championship
visit. I know how excited the bay area is over the Golden State Warriors
championship. I want to thank two outstanding public servants, Governor
Jerry Brown and Leader Nancy Pelosi who are here with us today. And I want
to thank this year`s leaders of the conference of mayors, Kevin Johnson,
Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake and Oklahoma City Mayor Mick

I also want to mention a few outstanding mayors who are getting ready to
step down. Michael Nutter of Philadelphia has done outstanding work. Greg
Ballard of Indianapolis an outstanding mayor. Doing great work with my
brother`s keeper. Thank you. And Annise Parker of Houston (inaudible).
And my dear old friend Michael Coleman of Columbus, Ohio.

And finally, a great mayor, one of my favorite people. And I know one of
the people all of you admire so much. A great mayor, Joe Riley of
Charleston. Joe`s back home, doing one of a mayor`s sadder, more important
duties today. Obviously the entire country has been shocked and
heartbroken by what happened in Charleston. The nature of this attack, in
a place of worship, where congregants invite in a stranger to worship with
them only to be gunned down adds to the pain.

The apparent motivations of the shooter remind us that racism remains a
blight that we have to combat together. We have made great progress, but
we have to be vigilant. Because it still lingers. And when it is
poisoning the minds of young people, it betrays our ideals and tears or
democracy apart. But as much as we grieve this particular tragedy, I think
it is important, as I had mentioned at the White House, to step back and
recognize these tragedies have become far too commonplace.

Few people understand the terrible toll of gun violence like mayors do.
And whether it`s a mass shooting like in Charleston or individual attacks
of violence that add up over time, it tears of the fabric of the community.
It costs you money. And it costs resources. It costs this country dearly.

More than 11,000 Americans were killed by gun violence in 2013 alone.
11,000. If Congress had passed some common sense gun safety reforms after
Newtown, after a group of children had been gunned down in their own
classroom. Reforms that 90 percent of the American people supported. We
wouldn`t have prevented every act of violence or even most. We don`t know
it would have prevented what happened in Charleston. No reform can
guarantee the elimination of violence but we might still have some more
Americans with us.

We might have stopped one shooter. Some families might still be whole.
You all might have to attend fewer funerals. And we should be strong
enough to acknowledge this. At the very least we should be able to talk
about this issue as citizens. Without demonizing all gun owners who are
overwhelmingly law-abiding but also without suggesting that any debate
about this involves a wild eyed plot to take everybody`s guns away.

I know today`s politics makes it less likely that see any sort of serious
gun safety legislation. I remarked that it was very unlikely that this
Congress would act. And some reporters I think took this as resignation.
I want to be clear, I am not resigned. I have faith we will eventually do
the right thing.

I was simply making the point that we have to move public opinion. We have
to feel a sense of urgency. Ultimately Congress will follow the people.
And we have to stop being confused about this. At some point as a country
we have to reckon with what happens. It is not good enough simply to show
sympathy. You don`t see murder on this kind of scale, with this kind of
frequency in any other advanced nation on earth. Every country has
violent, hateful or mentally unstable people. What`s different is not
every country is awash with easily accessible guns. And so, I refuse to
act as if this is the new normal. Or to pretend that it is simply
sufficient to grieve and that any mention of us doing something to stop it
is somehow politicizing the problem.

We need a change in attitudes. Among everybody. Lawful gun owners, those
who are unfamiliar with guns. We have to have a conversation about it.
And fix this. And ultimately Congress acts when the public insists on
action. And we`ve seen how public opinion can change. We`ve seen it
change on gay marriage. We`ve seen it beginning to change on climate
change. We`ve got to shift out we think about this issue. And we have the
capacity to change. But we have to feel a sense of urgency about it.

We as a people have got to change. That is how we honor those families.
That is how we honor the families of Newtown. That is how honor the
families in rural (ph). Now, the first time I spoke at this conference in
2008 I said that Americans -- can be succeeding despite Washington, they
should be succeeding with some help from Washington.

And as President I`ve made it a priority to partner be mayors like you.
That`s why I named three former mayors to my cabinet. That`s why I asked a
former president of this conference Jerry Abramson to be one of my top


SCHULTZ: President Obama speaking at the United States conference of
mayors in San Francisco. Clearly his most extensive remarks since the
horrific shooting in South Carolina. The President making the case that
legislation can be passed and it will save lives. He talked about Newtown
and talked about background checks. And of course we need a change in
attitudes in this country and that is how we`re going to honor those

Let me bring back in Bob Shrum Democratic Strategist, Caroline Heldman
Professor of Politics at Occidental College, and Michael Steele MSNBC
Political Analyst and Former RNC Chair.

Mr. Steele, I`ll start with you. It seems like the President is pleading
with this country to stop the political divide. Change attitudes and move
forward. Do you think it can happen? Do you think Washington might be

STEELE: No, to be honest I don`t think they are. And I think the evidence
of Washington not really listening or really caring about this issue
Democrat of Republican his Newtown. His references to Newtown were
poignant. When the president said Congress acts if the pubic insists on
their action. Well, 90 percent of the public said we wanted action. And
what did the Congress do? They avoided, they obfuscated, they didn`t
address the issue.

Now, it doesn`t matter at that point whether you`re for gun control or
against it or second whatever. It`s what action are you prepared to put on
the table so we can have a national conversation. So, my question to the
President and there was a lot that I took the heart to what he said. So
propose the bill like you did on healthcare. Propose the legislation to
force the Congress into the conversation and see if the public rallies
around that. See if you can motivate and inspire that type of energy
within the public so that we can begin this conversation.

SCHULTZ: Yeah. Very strong words by the President. Caroline Heldman,
what do you think the president`s next move is on this?

HELDMAN: Well, I assumed he will actually propose some legislation. And
this is a big shift for him, right. For the first six years of he`s
presidency he has not actually spoken about any sort of gun control after
one of these mass shootings and there have been six major mass shooting
that have received this sort of attention since 2008 but actually over 20
have occurred on American soil during that time. And I think it is
illustrative to look at Australia. They had a mass shooting in 1996. They
passed major reform in terms of gun ownership laws and have not had a
single mass shooting in the intervening years. So it can be done. It can
be effective.

SCHULTZ: And Bob Shrum, the President noted how we`ve had a change in
attitudes when it comes to other issues in this country, such as gay
marriage. And of course changing of attitudes is something that is hard to
do when you mentioned earlier you have the backdrop of the national rifle
association fear mongering and targeting those who don`t see the world the
way they do. So, how heavy of a lift is this going to be?

SHRUM: I think it`s going to be a very heavy lift. I think Michael Steele
right. 90 percent of people wanted action after Newtown. And by the way
to be fair the President favored those gun safety measures like background
check and did talk about them. But right now I think he can`t really be
the legislator in chief. This Congress is not going to pass this kind of
gun safety and legislation. But he can be the educator in chief. He can g
out and talk over, and over, and over again to the country about this.
Make sure this is part of the 2016 dialogue and hopefully in 2016 if we can
have a real debate about this, maybe in the years after that we`re going to
be able to act.

SCHULTZ: Well, the President is saying that we lost 11,000 lives last year
to shootings in this country. He says if we had legislation, maybe some of
those folks would still be with us. The president believes that
legislation such as background checks will save American lives. Let see if
our elected leaders do something about it. I appreciate the conversation.
Bob Shrum, Caroline Heldman, Michael Steele. Thanks for joining us here on
the Ed Show.

We`ll be right back. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Still ahead on the Ed Show. Hillary Clinton still won`t get
specific on TPP. And NASA has troubling new data about our planet`s water

We`ll have the details just a straight ahead. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. So far candidate Hillary Clinton
has refused to say where she stands on the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The
Democratic frontrunner has become expert on dodging the question as I see

Meanwhile on Thursday Hillary Clinton kind of told political reporter Jon
Ralston where she stands on fast track.


JON RALSTON, HOST "RALSTON LIVE": Last question and hopefully it`s a
simple yes or no, but I`m not that optimistic. If you were in the Senate
still, would you vote for TPA when it gets there?

CLINTON: At this point, probably not because it`s a process vote and I
don`t want to say it`s the same as TPP. Right now I`m focused on making
sure we get trade adjustment assistance and I certainly would not vote for
it unless I were absolutely confident we would get Trade Adjustment


SCHULTZ: For more let`s bring in Jon Ralston journalist and host of
"Ralston Live" on PBS. Jon, good to have you with us tonight. Did you get
a sense that Hillary Clinton was uneasy about this subject? What do you
make of it?

RALSTON: I thought her body language and her answer showed exactly that.
Ed, you rarely can catch Hillary Clinton off guard. She is a very
difficult person to interview. But if you watched her body language and
how she answered that last question that came after a fairly lengthy
discussion of trade and TPP and TPA. She paused. She did not expect me to
ask what she would have done, because now there`s a vote coming up in the

So, she essentially all but took a position she did not want to take.
Before that Ed, she did exactly what you described earlier in that she
essentially dodged the whole question of TPP. She wants to essentially be
able to say to her Democratic constituencies that she needs running for
President, I`m with you. I`m against this. But she has a record as
secretary of state of making many comments in favor of TPP, which she now
trying to massage.

SCHULTZ: Do you get a sense this is becoming a real problem for here
because you can talk process, you can talk authority. The American people
are viewing this at the end of the day it`s a rotten trade deal and she
won`t really say whether she`s for or against it, she gets talking about
process. Your thoughts?

RALSTON: Well, I think by talking about process and you`ve seen others do
this, too. They can confuse what is a pretty complicated issue, Ed, when
you take TPA and TAA and TPP and that`s will explain all those different
things and you have the White House press secretary talking about it being
a process issue, but there`s more to it than that. And Hillary Clinton...


RALSTON: ... is clearly uncomfortable with it. Whether or not it becomes
an actual problem for her is more difficult to say, Ed.

SCHULTZ: John Ralston, always a pleasure. Good to have you with us
tonight. She did a sit down interview with you. That`s more than she`s
done with anybody else. Good to have you with us.

Still ahead, water worries. NASA scientists say the planet`s water supply
is drying up. We`ll have the detail next right here in the Ed Show. Stay
with us big story, the globe needs to pay attention to.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to the Ed Show. This is a story the world has to
pay attention to. New satellite data and NASA on Earth say scary reality.
The world is running out of water. Data from the gray satellite system
shows more than half of the earth`s 37 largest aquifers are being depleted.
However, scientist at UC Irvine says there is barely any data about how
much water remains in the aquifers.

Underground aquifers supply 35 percent of the water used by humans
worldwide. Demand on the underground basin says even higher during
drought. Rain-starved California is tapping aquifers for 60 percent of its
water use. Scientists say water from aquifers could account for nearly
every drop of the state`s fresh water supply by the end of this year.

Experts say the aquifers under the most stress are in poor densely
populated regions where alternatives are certainly limited.

Joining me now is a Jay Famiglietti. He`s a Professor of Earth System
Science at the University of California Irvine and Senior Water Scientist
at NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory.

Mr. Famiglietti, I appreciate your time tonight. This is staggering data.
In fact if I have this correct, this hard data really is the first picture
we have of what we actually have as a water supply on earth. Is that

the first picture, contemporary picture that we have of all of the
aquifers, the world`s biggest aquifers at the same time that allows us to
see how rapidly they`re all being depleted at the same time. It`s mostly
concentrated in the mid-latitude are regions of the world and the arid and
semiarid regions where we need our ground water most.

SCHULTZ: All right. This is a ten-year study. Is this date that that
we`ve just never had before. Is this groundbreaking stuff that NASA is
providing the world?

FAMIGLIETTI: Yeah. Yes, it`s absolutely is. These are data from the NASA
Gravity Recovery And Climate Experiment mission otherwise known as GRACE.
And GRACE has given us a first look at Ed, a few very key our earth system
parameters. How fast the ice sheets are melting, how much mass is being
added to the oceans and now how much water we`re losing from the world`s

SCHULTZ: Professor, is there any other data out there that would parallel
this, that would even come close to its accuracy an impact?

FAMIGLIETTI: Well, not satellite data but certainly data on the ground.
But the problem with data on the ground is that it`s very expensive to
collect and it`s not shared internationally. So meaning there could be
existing monitoring wells in the Middle East or in India or in China, but
we as scientists really all over the world are not likely to see that data.
So, in addition to the technological achievement of being able to monitor
these ground water storage changes, the ability to see all the aquifers
across political boundaries at the same time is really revolutionary.

SCHULTZ: Well, it is, as I see it and read the story surrounding all of
this. I mean, I think Joe average on the street when he sees a weather map
and sees a satellite, we can tell a storm is coming. I mean, to parallel
that, is this pretty much absolute the same thing to scientists?

FAMIGLIETTI: It is. The storm is definitely coming, but it`s a slow --
you know, it`s a slow burning storm. It`s more, you know, the decades of
not quite drought but the decades of perennial water shortage are on the
way and they`ll be exacerbated by the increasing frequency of drought due
to climate change.

SCHULTZ: And this is not a political debate. This is an absolute,

FAMIGLIETTI: That`s right. Now, this isn`t a debate. We can see, we can
tell from the wells on the ground that the water table is falling. We can
see in California the streams being depleted and the ground subsiding at a
foot per year some places. So no, it`s not up for debate. It`s an

SCHULTZ: I need a solution. Our audience wants a solution from an expert,
and that is you, sir. What`s the future?

FAMIGLIETTI: Wow, thank you for putting me on the spot. So you know, the
biggest solution that we have really is to conserve, is to use a lot less,
and we do have to start with agriculture because that`s a biggest user of
water around the world, not just in the United States. 80 percent of the
water that we withdraw from rivers or aquifers is used for agriculture.
And you know solutions like desalination that we hear about all the time
and sewage recycling are very important but they`re really only going to be
effective in metropolitan regions.

So we really need to be thinking about how we are allocating our water to
agriculture looking for more efficiencies with irrigation, maybe changes in
water pricing, changes in crop selection and we can manage our way through
it. We`re not going to be reversing the depletion. We`ll only be slowing
it down.

SCHULTZ: All right, Professor Jay Famiglietti. I appreciate your time on
the Ed Show. Thanks so much.


SCHULTZ: We`ll certainly follow the story, no question.

And that`s the Ed Show. I`m Ed Schultz.

PoliticsNation with Reverend Al Sharpton starts right now.


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