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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Monday, June 22nd, 2015

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Date: June 22, 2015
Guest: Eugene Robinson, Mark Thompson, Janai Nelson, Guy-Uriel Charles,
Richard Cohen, Richard Blumenthal

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Is held for the Senator on Friday -- question
of when they`re going to do it. And whether that confederate flag will be
down in time for Senator Pinckney to lie there in state on Thursday.

We should also know that when the actual funeral is held for the Senator on
Friday, Vice President Biden and first lady Michelle Obama and President
Obama will all be there at the funeral in person.

And now we know that the eulogy for Senator Pinckney will be given by
President Obama himself.

That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again tomorrow, now it`s time
for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Rachel, thank you.

MADDOW: Thanks.

O`DONNELL: A hundred and fifty years after the civil war, and five days
after nine people were murdered in the South Carolina church, the governor
of South Carolina is now ready to move the confederate flag away from the
state capital.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You can lean on me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Charleston, this holy city continues to answer hate
with love.


NORVEL GOFF, REVEREND MINISTER: Because the doors of Mother Emanuel is
open on this Sunday.


GOFF: It sends a message to every demon in hell and on earth.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thousands marching across the city`s main bridge for
the nine victims of last week`s church shooting.

GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: He hoped his actions would start a
race war, just the opposite is happening.

GOFF: A lot of folks expected us to do something strange and to break out
in a riot. Well, they just don`t know us.

HALEY: By removing a symbol that divides us, we can move forward as a
state in harmony.

GOFF: I want you to hug three persons right next to you. Tell them it`s
going to be all right.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I won`t let you go if you lean on me.


O`DONNELL: On Friday, President Obama will travel to Charleston to deliver
the eulogy for Reverend Clementa Pinckney.

Today at the South Carolina state house where Reverend Pinckney served as a
state senator, his desk was shrouded in black. This afternoon, Republican
Governor Nikki Haley announced this.


HALEY: Fifteen years ago after much contentious debate, South Carolina
came together in a bipartisan way to move the flag from atop the Capitol

Today, we are here in a moment of unity in our state, without ill-will, to
say it`s time to move the flag from the Capitol grounds.


My hope is that by removing a symbol that divides us, we can move forward
as a state in harmony, and we can honor the nine blessed souls who are now
in heaven.




O`DONNELL: On Sunday, the Emanuel AME Church in Charleston opened its
doors again with a service which Governor Haley and her family attended.

Norvel Goff opened the service with the reading of the names of the people
who were murdered in that church just four days earlier.


GOFF: Let us remember those who lost their lives on last Wednesday
evening: Reverend Clementa Pinckney, Reverend Dr. Daniel Simmons, the
Reverend Sharonda Coleman Singleton, brother Tywanza Sanders, sister
DePayne Middleton-Doctor, sister Cynthia Hurd, Myra Thompson, sister Ethel
Lance, sister Susie Jackson.

We`re reminded this morning about the freshness of death comes like a thief
in the night.



GOFF: But I declare that Jesus said it a long time ago, he said I am the
resurrection --



GOFF: And the life. Come now, the altar is open. Bring your burdens to
the Lord and leave them there. Whether you`re praying for yourself or the
nine families, realizing that earth has no sorrow that heaven cannot heal.


O`DONNELL: The service was one of remembrance and mourning and of hope.


GOFF: For those of us who are here this morning.


GOFF: I want you to know because the doors of Mother Emanuel is open on
this Sunday.



GOFF: It sends a message to every demon in hell and on earth.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s right, yes!


GOFF: That no weapon! somebody say no weapon! No weapon formed against us
shall prosper!

No weapon formed against us -- some wanted to divide the race, black and
white and brown, but no weapon formed against us shall prosper.


O`DONNELL: We`re joined by a special panel tonight to consider the events
over the last few days in Charleston.

Eugene Robinson, columnist for "The Washington Post" and Msnbc contributor
Mark Thompson, the host of "Make it Plain" on "Sirius Xm" radio.

Janai Nelson, the Associate Director of Council of the NAACP Legal Defense
and Educational Fund, and Guy-Uriel Charles, Director of the Duke Law
Center on Law, Race and Politics.

Eugene Robinson, as our resident South Carolinian here at Msnbc --


O`DONNELL: I just want to get your general reaction to everything that`s
occurred in the last few days, and --


O`DONNELL: Including the Sunday service and what we saw the governor do

ROBINSON: How much time do we have? We never get --


O`DONNELL: We have the hour --

ROBINSON: We have the hour --

O`DONNELL: We have the hour --

ROBINSON: It was --

O`DONNELL: You`re all going to be here for the hour --

ROBINSON: Obviously --

O`DONNELL: I want you to take your time --

ROBINSON: Obviously last Wednesday was stunning and tragic and weeping. I
mean it was -- it`s just awful to think of the significance of that church,
a very important church. My mother`s side of the family came from

My great great-grandfather had a black smith shop that was kind of not very
far from where Mother Emanuel church is actually.

And at the end of Calhoun Street are the old docks where a very significant
portion of the African slaves brought to this country were offloaded.

And it`s now being turned into a museum area. It`s shocking. Today
completely different. Today, I was stunned at the -- that tableau of
Governor Nikki Haley flanked by the African-American Republican elected
senator from South Carolina, Tim Scott.

Lindsey Graham, Jim Clyburn, Haley herself and any American saying that the
time had come to take the confederate flag away, and given what I thought
was quite a good speech, actually.

Obviously, we have a long way to go in this country, and what I write about
in my column for tomorrow is racism. Racism, it`s here. It`s still here,
that`s what caused this.

That`s what birth -- that`s the rouge of what Dylann Roof did. And he
didn`t make it up, he absorbed it, he ingested it. It was in the air, it`s
still there like a -- like a foul emanation from the sewer.

And we have so much work to do to get rid of it. But I got to say that
today made me more hopeful certainly than I`ve been since Wednesday.

And maybe more hopeful than I`ve been in a long time. That was -- the
South Carolina I grew up in, nothing like that would ever happen.
Absolutely impossible. I don`t think --

O`DONNELL: You mean what happened today?

ROBINSON: What happened today --



O`DONNELL: With politicians --


O`DONNELL: Across the aisle joining in that situation? --

ROBINSON: Across the aisle, it`s the sort of multiracial picture of a
state that has either -- that`s always been the true picture of the state,

South Carolina at the time of the civil war was one of the few states where
there were actually more black people than white people.

So, it`s always -- that`s always been the true nature of South Carolina,
but you never saw it at the high councils of power.

And you certainly, to get rid of the flag on the capital grounds was a such
an issue, a contentious passion filled the issue in South Carolina, to do
the right thing in South Carolina -- amazing.

O`DONNELL: Mark Thompson, if the confederate flag does not belong at the
state capital, why did it belong there at the beginning of last week?


O`DONNELL: I mean, look what it took to change minds.

THOMPSON: No, it never did. And not only will this not have happened what
happened today, when -- Gene lived there, this would not have happened a
week ago today.


THOMPSON: Because there was no movement on this. And this has been a very
disturbing issue for a number of years, for decades.

And we know that it has been there. It started on the dome in `62, so it`s
mythical that this ever had anything to do with the confederacy.

This was in response and retaliation for the burgeoning civil rights
movement at the time. Strom Thurmond himself was one of the architects in
putting it there.

So even now, when you hear people talk about confederate pride and all of
that --


THOMPSON: That wasn`t the original motive for that -- for that flag. And
there`s still a very long way to go.

Today was an important step though, and hopefully the legislature will heed
the governor`s call and move it. That remains to be seen.

ROBINSON: Yes, it remains to be seen --



There`s still a couple of political obstacles that need to be worked out.
But you know, it has been an incredible week. It took this terrible
tragedy, the martyrdom of nine people to move that flag.

This tragedy that occurred on the day that Denmark Vesey, one of the people
who organized that church, would have had a slave insurrection.

And I don`t think that Dylann Storm Roof was unaware of that either. It
took that terrible and heinous act in order for that flag to be brought
down. There`s still a bit more to go.

As a matter of fact, money talks, too. The NAACP actually never announced
the formal end of economic sanctions as a result of that flag.

But also today, when Wal-Mart made a decision that no longer will
confederate merchandise be sold in their stores, that was also a very clear
signal to this governor, to Lindsey Graham who`s been hesitant to try to
say it`s about race, to say it`s about Christian persecution.

It was important even seeing him there, because that means he even had to
walk back from his original position. So today is a historic day.

But we still as Gene said, we still have a lot more to do to end racism --



And I know we`ll have a chance to talk about this, but we -- yes, but
there`s more than the flag, too --




THOMPSON: There`s more than the flag --

ROBINSON: Simple, there`s a whole lot more than the flag.

O`DONNELL: Janai --

ROBINSON: Right --

O`DONNELL: Charles, you`re with the NAACP legal defense fund which
Thurgood Marshall was running back in 1954 when he won the Brown case and
the Supreme Court and we can trace, as Mark pointed out, the resurgence of
the confederate flag to 1954.

Exactly right --

O`DONNELL: The south had -- was basically ignoring it, and then they
started raising it to say this. This was taken as an expression against
the Supreme Court ruling.

NELSON: That`s absolutely right. You cannot divorce the desegregation
efforts of the Legal Defense Fund and other civil rights organizations and
this resurgence of white supremacy that occurred in the late `50s and into
the 1960s.

And the flag was no longer this sign of confederate pride. This became a
white supremacist symbol. This was a banner of hate, a banner of
oppression and a banner that really has no place in this society.

What this really underscores for me is how difficult easy questions are for
us. How difficult it is for us to confront our history. How difficult it
is for us to simply say once and for all that, that confederate flag has no

And if you think about what just happened last week, the United States
Supreme Court, just one day, the morning after this massacre decided in a
very narrow decision, a 5-4 ruling that the state of Texas is permitted to
deny --

ROBINSON: All right --

NELSON: Individuals the right to use the confederate flag on license
plates. That was a 5-4 decision, it was narrow.

That means we have four justices on our Supreme Court who believe that it
is OK, that that`s still a valid expression of individualism that a state
can sponsor.

That is absolutely absurd in 2015 to think that we`re still debating these
issues. So to me --

And Lawrence --

NELSON: Today`s decision shows us that what should really be an absolute
obvious answer is something that we`re still grappling with as a nation,
because we are finding it so difficult to confront not only our history but
the current effects of racism in America.

O`DONNELL: Mr. Charles, go ahead.

CHARLES: Lawrence, if I may, and I agree with Janai there, one of the
things that`s also remarkable is that it still takes tragedy, the loss of
African-American lives in order to move this country forward.

And I think that is a sad commentary. As wonderful as this day is, as a
moment of progress, but one of the things that we learn from the civil
rights movement is the shedding of blood of African-American blood moves
things forward.

And I hope that that is not a legacy of what happened in South Carolina.
That is not a legacy of how we get progress forward, that getting racial
equality should not take the shedding of blood, especially the continual
shedding of African-American blood.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to take a break here, when we come back,
we will discuss that point of where did Dylann Roof learn to hate this way?
That`s coming up.


O`DONNELL: Last night, thousands gathered on the Arthur Ravenel Bridge in
Charleston, South Carolina, one of the marchers there was Stephen Colbert,
South Carolinian who walked with his sister.

Stephen Colbert tweeted this video along with the message, "peace and love
and unity in the holy city." Up next, what drove Dylann Roof to become a
racist mass murderer.



GOFF: At this time, we need to be in solidarity --


GOFF: And praying for families --


GOFF: And our communities --


GOFF: Around this state and particularly in Charleston.


O`DONNELL: The FBI and local authorities are investigating and analyzing a
racist website with a 2,444-word manifesto that appears to belong to the
Charleston church shooter Dylann Roof, Dylann Storm Roof.

In that manifesto, he writes, "I was not raised in a racist home or
environment, the event that truly awakened me was the Trayvon Martin case.

I was unable to understand what the big deal was. It was obvious that
Zimmerman was in the right, but more importantly this prompted me to type
in the words black on white crime into Google and I have never been the
same since that day.

The first website I came to was the Council of Conservative Citizens.
There were pages upon pages of these brutal black on white murders.

I was in disbelief. At this moment, I realized that something was very
wrong. How could the news be blowing up the Trayvon Martin case while
hundreds of these blacks on white murders got ignored.

I have no choice. I am not in the position to alone go into the ghetto and
fight. I chose Charleston because it is most historic city in my state and
at one time had the highest racial of blacks to whites in the country.

We have no skinheads, no real KKK, no one doing anything but talking on the
internet. Well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real
world, and I guess that has to be me."

The website of the Council of Conservative Citizens, the group that Dylann
Roof mentioned in his manifesto as having changed his life carries this
statement today.

"We utterly condemn Roof`s despicable killings, but they do not detract in
the slightest from the legitimacy of some of the positions he has

We`re joined now by Richard Cohen, the president of the Southern Poverty
Law Center. Richard, you write today about how this kind of venom is
spread both on the internet and worldwide.

Was it at all surprising to you to read that chronology in that manifesto
about this is how his views and as he puts it, his life were changed by
coming upon that website?

classic white supremacist dogma. You know, the website talks about, you
know, white genocide, the shooters, young men --

O`DONNELL: I knew --


COHEN: Unable to form normal relationships. He looks for answers for --
outside of himself for his failures. The Council of Conservative Citizens
website tells him it`s not his fault, it`s the fault of black people.

It`s the fault of others. He buys it, hook, line and sinker. Today lines,
we actually saw -- found another part of his digital trail where he was
posting at another website and engaging in conversations with white

And, you know, this is how it goes so often with people like this. One
thing I could add if it`d be OK about the Council of Conservative Citizens,
you know, it`s a deeply racist organization.

They`ve described black people as a retrograde species of being. Yet at
the same time, you know, Republican politicians in the `90s and up until
about 2005 routinely showed up at their fundraisers, routinely showed up at
their rallies.

And really, today, the web master of the Council of Conservative Citizens,
up until recently was a member of the Republican Executive Committee of his
county in South Carolina.

So, I mean, you know, it`s an organization with deep racism, yet, with a
foothold in mainstream politics.

O`DONNELL: And Gene Robinson, long list of contributions to politicians,
Republican -- all Republican politicians from Earl Holt, who is the
President of the Council --


O`DONNELL: Of Conservative Citizens, his favorite, Ted Cruz, $8,500
donated to Ted Cruz. Scott Walker, $3,500, Republican Governor Greg Abbott
of Texas, $3,000, Representative Steve King of Iowa, $2,500, Rand Paul,
$1,750, former Senator Rick Santorum $1,500 and so it goes.

Many of them have announced today that they are either returning the money
or better, I think, a choice, Ted Cruz has announced that he is donating
that $8,500 to the Charleston church fund.

ROBINSON: Yes, that`s a -- that`s a better response I --


ROBINSON: Think to, you know, where David began as --


ROBINSON: Maybe you know, if you look at the list of donors, you know,
obviously, you know, on the one hand it`s true you don`t control everybody
who -- you know, who gives, you know, necessarily know everybody who gives.

However, it is also true that the Republican Party has pursued what was
dubbed in 1968 the southern strategy. Since then --

THOMPSON: Right --

ROBINSON: Which was to, you know, to essentially survive and thrive by
capturing the lion`s share of votes in the south by appealing to and
providing a haven for those who feel white victimization and white
grievance in the face of demographic change, in the face of desegregation.

In the face of the first black president -- whatever. And to -- and with a
nod and a wink almost, you know, because at this point, because it`s not
that anybody has to -- anything, we don`t mind, we wouldn`t agree with

We wouldn`t, you know, openly appeal for those folks. Yet, we would
provide a home for them, a political home for people who believe that, and
that`s the sort of passive understanding.

O`DONNELL: And Richard Cohen, now, they`re saying today that actually the
only thing they disagree with is going into a black church and gunning
everyone back.

Everything else in the manifesto is OK with them.

COHEN: Yes, I mean, they are unrepentant racists, you know, and it`s
really quite incredible. You know, Gene mentioned the southern strategy.

One of the leading players in that was, of course, the South Carolinian Lee
Atwater. And so, you know, this kind of -- this thing has a long tradition
unfortunately in South Carolina, in the deep south.

And, you know, we see the danger, you know, in the Charleston shooter`s
actions of that kind of rhetoric.

O`DONNELL: And Mark Thompson, the manifesto is filled with the classic
stuff that these kinds of people have been saying for years, don`t like
Jews, Hispanics are in here, everybody you can think of who isn`t white,
and as they put it, European.

THOMPSON: Yes, this rhetoric is far too commonplace. Even with the
violence that he perpetrated, isn`t it?

That rhetoric is very common and shameless plug -- people who want to hear
that rhetoric just need to tune into my show every night. I hear that all
the time. Conservatives --


THOMPSON: Every night, Richard --


THOMPSON: They call me every night and they say these things especially
during the Trayvon Martin case. Everything he said verbatim.


THOMPSON: And I accuse them all of that being scripted. You know, they --
that there`s some place, and maybe it`s the council and other places, the
Council of Conservative Citizens, but there`s some place that scripts it
because all the language, all the rhetoric is verbatim.

Why are you upset about Trayvon Martin when it`s black and -- blacks
murdering whites or black-on-black crime --

ROBINSON: Leading --


THOMPSON: First on responsibility --


THOMPSON: I mean, all that stuff comes up, and that`s just further example
of --



O`DONNELL: Janai, there`s a passage --

NELSON: Yes --

O`DONNELL: In here, actually we don`t think enough attention has been paid
to this document which is why I`ve been reading it, but there`s a passage
in here about intermarriage where he says "a horse and a donkey can breed
and make a mule but they are still two completely different animals.

Just because we can breed with the other races doesn`t make us the same."
There`s more and more and more -- and as I read this today, the more normal
he sounded, by which I mean, the more normal he sounded in that location in

This was not outrageous, unacceptable thinking in --

THOMPSON: All right --

O`DONNELL: Nineteen-sixty --

THOMPSON: Right --

O`DONNELL: In his community.


NELSON: You know, it`s amazing. We are right now going back to the
Supreme Court where awaiting a marriage equality decision.

It was only 48 years ago, in Loving versus Virginia that it took the
Supreme Court to say that interracial marriage was in fact permissible,
that there was no stain on the nation by permitting it and to allow couples
and to freely love one other and recognize the humanity in everyone.

And the fact that we`re still fighting these same battles today, and that
some want to hold on to that old racist dogma shouldn`t entirely surprise

We see this sort of rhetoric in so many spaces. We see it in irresponsible
media, we see it in classrooms and other areas where we`re fomenting the
myth of minority rise of power.

When if we really look at the statistics of mass incarceration, of the
wealth disparity in this country of housing segregation, we would know that
quite the opposite is the case.

That Dylann Roof had no fear of losing his privilege. In fact, he owned
more of it than he cared to recognize.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re going to take another break here, Richard
Cohen, thank you very much for joining us for this segment. Thank you.

COHEN: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Charleston and the discussion about guns.


O`DONNELL: For years, Marc Maron`s WTF podcast has been the best form for
the most fascinating one-on-one interviews. Marc Maron`s interviews done
in his garage are known for being long, intimate and funny. President
Obama stopped by --


-- Marc Maron`s garage on Friday for what turned out to be the longest
interview of his presidency. But there was no room for funny the day after
the President had to, once again, address the nation about a mass murder.



MARC MARON, PODCAST HOST: Don`t you get furious. I mean, I saw you on TV
the other day and I could see the anger.

And you`re not a boil-over kind of guy. But I could feel it.

will tell you, right after Sandy Hook, Newtown, --


OBAMA: -- when 26-year-olds were gunned down and Congress literally does
nothing, yes, that -- that -- that`s the closest I came feeling disgusted.


O`DONNELL: The President told Marc Maron he does not expect the murders in
Charleston to change politicians` attitudes about gun control.


OBAMA: Unfortunately, the grip of the NRA on Congress is extremely strong.
I don`t foresee any legislative action being taken in this

And I don`t foresee any real action being taken until the American public
feels a sufficient sense of urgency, and they say to themselves, "This is
not normal. This is something that we can change and we`re going to change

And if you don`t have that kind of public and voter pressure, then it`s not
going to change from the inside.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now is Senator Richard Blumenthal of
Connecticut. Senator, do you agree with the President that nothing that
happened in Charleston is going to move this Congress.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), CONNECTICUT: In Connecticut, Lawrence, we
understand that anger expressed by the President, the grief and shock and
horror that we felt in the wake of Newtown, and the frustration with a
congress that failed to enact common sense, sense of measures like
background checks and a ban on illegal trafficking and straw purchases and
mental health initiatives and school safety.

But we can break that grip of the NRA. And we cannot surrender. We can`t
walk away from this fight. And I will never --


-- forget one of the conversations I had with some of those Newtown
families, when they said to me, "We know that there are measures --


-- that can be taken." They may not save our children. They may not have
prevented this tragedy in Newtown, but we can save lives.

We can`t stop all the violence, all the deaths, 11,000 every year, but we
can save lives. And I think we can break that grip because 90 percent of
the American people want us to break that grip.

O`DONNELL: You know, Guy Charles, in a country with the kind of virulent
racism that we know still exists and this completely free access to guns,
this is a recipe for a horrible event like this to occur.

CHARLES: It is definitely a recipe for this type of an event. When you
combine easy access to guns with vile white supremacist ideas that are
available and invite this type of action, it is not a surprise that an
individual can walk into a sanctuary, such as a church, and commit the
types of horrific murders that he did.

And the President is right. Something needs to be done about that,
something that`s sensible such as background checks that are sensible --


-- measures in order to assure that we can limit these types of actions in
the future. So, something has to be done. Combining racism, easy access
to guns, that is not a good recipe.


O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Hillary Clinton said about this.


ELECTION: It makes no sense that bipartisan legislation, to require
universal background checks would fail in Congress despite overwhelming

It makes no sense that we couldn`t come together to keep guns out of the
hands of domestic abusers or people suffering from mental illnesses, even
people on the terrorist watch list.

That doesn`t make sense. And it is a rebuke to this nation --


-- we love and care about.


O`DONNELL: Senator Blumenthal, what have we learned from the repeated
efforts in the Congress to make progress here.

BLUMENTHAL: That we have to keep fighting. Not every country has the kind
of mass massacres that we have here.

Other countries have racists. But no other country has this kind of
repeated, relentless deaths to gun violence, not only in the mass murders
but also, day by day, in our cities all around the country.

What we`ve learned is that perseverance is necessary, organizing from the
grassroots as is now being done more and more, as the NRA has done using
those same tactics, those lessons from our defeats.

And I think there`s the real prospect of progress here. Who would have
thought a week ago that the governor of South Carolina would advocate
removing the state Confederacy flag from state grounds.

Who would have thought that would have been done in the company of all of
the politicians that joined her on this occasion. You know, it took 10
years, after Ronald Reagan was almost assassinated and Jim Brady was
paralyzed, for the Brady Bill to be passed.

Perseverance counts. And on domestic violence, I`ve introduced a bill that
would close a loophole that permits estranged husbands or spouses or
partners from retaining their guns.

Even when they`re judged to be dangerous and a protective order is issued,
that loophole must be closed. Domestic violence is a scourge that results
five times more likely in debt when combined with guns.

So, there are common sense, sensible measures here. And the lesson of our
experience is to organize from the grassroots and make sure that the 90
percent of the American people, the vast majority, have their views heard
and expressed.

And their voices will be heard.

O`DONNELL: Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you very much for joining us
for this segment. Thank you very much.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, more about Governor Nikki Haley`s announcement --


-- about the Confederate flag.



Walmart has announced that it will no longer be selling products that
feature the Confederate flag. The company released a statement saying, --

TEXT: "We never want to offend anyone with the products that we offer. We
have taken steps to remove all items promoting the Confederate flag from
our assortment, whether in our stores or on our Web site."

"We have a process in place to help lead us to the right decisions. When
it comes to the merchandise we sell, still, at times, items make their way
into our assortment improperly. This is one of those instances."

Also, this weekend, Jerry Richardson, the owner of the Carolina Panthers
NFL Football Team gave $100,000 to pay for the funerals of all nine victims
of the Charleston shooting.

Up next, the impact of Governor Haley`s statement today.





GOFF: Some of us have been downright angry. But through it all, God has
sustained us.


O`DONNELL: In her statement today, urging the South Carolina State
Legislature to remove the Confederate flag from the statehouse grounds,
Republican Governor Nikki Haley said this --


GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: For many people in our state, the
flag stand for traditions that are noble, traditions of history, of
heritage and of ancestry.

The hate-filled murderer who massacred our brothers and sisters in
Charleston has a sick and twisted view of the flag. In no way does he
reflect the people in our state who respect and, in many ways, revere it.

Those South Carolinians view the flag as a symbol of respect, integrity and
duty. They also see it as a memorial, a way to honor ancestors who came to
the service of their state during time of conflict.


O`DONNELL: We`re rejoined by the panel. Guy Charles, as a professor in
North Carolina, you must hear that a lot, that the Confederate flag is a
symbol of respect, integrity and duty -- that`s from people who respect the
Confederate flag that, as Nikki Haley said, it`s to honor ancestors who
came to the service of their state during a time of conflict.

That is the most polite language I can imagine applying to ancestors who
fought, fought to the death for the preservation of slavery.

CHARLES: Of course, Lawrence, you are absolutely right. Now, think of
this -- the flag is not just a symbol. It is a flag.

It represents allegiance to something other than this republic. And not
only does it represent allegiance to something else, it also represents
some specific things such as racial inequality. It seeks to undo the --


-- Civil War, the 13th Amendment, the 14th Amendment, the 15th Amendment.
Those are the things that it represents. So, it`s not just about an
anodyne heritage, it is also about specific historical moments. And so, to
anybody --


-- who thinks that it simply represents duty, one has to think about duty
for what? Why is it called a rebel flag. It was in rebellion against the

And that is an undeniable fact that, I think, the supporters of the flag
have to come to terms with. And that`s one of the reasons why.

At least, for me, it is even more deeply problematic. It is not just about
racism but, specifically, against the very ideals that this country stands

ROBINSON: And, indeed, when it went up first at the State Capital, first
in 1961, the hundredth anniversary of the Civil War, and then a law was
passed to keep it there in 1962.

It represented, again, rebellion. This time, rebellion against the federal
government efforts to end Jim Crow segregation, a whole system of
discrimination and oppression that had obtained, really, since the end of

O`DONNELL: And, Janai, this is just two paragraphs. And what I agree with
Jim was an, otherwise, very good speech that she gave today.

But those two paragraphs had to be there. There had to be that nod, --


O`DONNELL: -- especially to the white southerner who has that license
plate frame, the Confederate flag and so forth. And this idea that it`s
something that --


-- as Walmart very clearly said, without any parenthetical about some noble
history with Confederate flag, it`s something that doesn`t belong here in
the state grounds but it`s, somehow, a symbol of respect, integrity and

NELSON: Yes. I`m not sure I`d agree that that had to be there. I think -

O`DONNELL: I mean for a politician.

NELSON: For a politician --

O`DONNELL: There was no way that politician was going to get through that
speech without the speechwriter sticking that in there.

NELSON: And particularly this politician, right.


NELSON: She did not initially think that the flag should come down. This
is a new position that is certainly in response to --


-- the massacre and the right decision that she made, but this, we should
not -- not acknowledge the fact that this was really spurned on by civil
rights groups.

The state branch of the NAACP had led a boycott for years, had sued to get
this flag to come down. Representative Clyburn was also a staunch advocate
for --


-- getting the flag down. And it`s unfortunate that these events, these
series of deaths and killings and murders, too, compelled the governor to
take this stance.

We`re certainly extraordinarily pleased that she did but, again, there
should be an unequivocal denouncement of this flag and the symbolism that
it represents.

And it`s no surprise that, given the history of this flag, that it`s used
as a cloak for terror. I mean, in fact, what it is. It`s terror against
the nation that the state of South Carolina did not originally want to be a
part of.

And it`s used in South Carolina, it`s used in Mississippi, it`s part of its
flag, it`s used in Georgia.

I hope that this will open up a discussion about the use of this sort of
imagery, of this sort of rhetoric, this dogma symbolized in this imagery,
and that we can start to crack that open, and not just South Carolina but
in other places across the south, and have a much more robust discussion
about racism.

O`DONNELL: OK, quick break and we will be right back.


Mitt Romney got one right, a big one. On Saturday, Mitt Romney tweeted
this --

TEXT: "Take down the Confederate flag at the South Carolina capital. To
many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor Charleston

O`DONNELL: We`ll be back after another quick break.



GOFF: Because the doors of Mother Emanuel is open on this Sunday.


GOFF: It sends a message to every demon in hell and on earth.



O`DONNELL: I want to listen to something that President Obama said to Mark
Maron in that podcast about racism in America and how we are not cured of
it. Let`s listen to this.


OBAMA: Racism, we are not cure of it. Clearly. And it`s not just a
matter of not being polite to say (bleep) in public.

That`s not the measure of whether racism still exists or not. It`s not
just a matter of overt discrimination. We have -- because societies don`t,
overnight, completely erase everything that happened 2 to 300 years prior.


O`DONNELL: Eugene, your reaction. I apologize that our network believes
that the President used bad judgment. Because that`s what the bleep is,

The bleep is you used bad judgment in using that word, not recognizing that
it is a historical word, it is an English language word in this country.

Anyway, I don`t care about the word, make a big deal about the word, but
the President`s sentiment that he was expressing.

ROBINSON: I think the sentiment is right. You know, what I`m really
waiting -- I`m waiting to hear what the President says on Friday, to tell
you the truth.

I mean, I thought --

O`DONNELL: Yet another moment where the President will take to a pulpit --


O`DONNELL: -- to address this deep American curse.

ROBINSON: Right, right. And, in a moment when any -- everyone is sort of
keyed in and wants to hear, because it`s a moment when the nation needs to

And I think it`s an opportunity to move the conversation forward and to
move us forward perhaps. For example, why don`t we treat white supremacist
terrorism the way we treat Islamic terrorism.

Why aren`t we tracking those racist Web sites the way we track jihadist Web
sites. And why don`t we think of the Confederate flag the way we think of
the black flag of ISIS.

I mean, you know, those kinds of questions. And I think we could -- we can
move the dialogue ahead, so I kind of hope he does that.

MARK THOMPSON, SIRIX XM RADIO HOST: And I think it`s very important for
this President to say it and to speak on Friday.

Because I think we`re seeing history repeat itself, the same atmosphere
that existed after reconstruction, when the period of reclamation started,
the first Congressional black caucus, which was as significant as the first
black president at the time.

These are former slaves in Congress, were met with voter disenfranchisement
and violence, lynchings of innocent people. The first black president and
what we might consider the second reconstruction after

His administration has been met with voter suppression, again, we`re
reliving that, and a more sophisticated form of lynching. Many of us see
no disparity between Emanuel and Trayvon Martin and Jordan Davis and
Renisha McBride and Michael Brown and Eric Garner.

All of that is part of the same thing. So, this is history repeating
itself. And it`s appropriate for the President to speak.

I want to remind everybody though, in the College of Charleston, the
President was the leader of the Confederate States of America. That was
his Web site.

So, they`re going to be on that very campus with someone who, probably, was
most outspoken in this regard when it comes to the Confederacy.

And, lastly, you mentioned guns law in that last segment. I hope this is
not a trade-off -- we`ll let you have the flag but we`re not going to
compromise on guns.

It`s not an either, or. It`s a both, and.

NELSON: That`s right, that`s right. Absolutely.

CHARLES: One of the things the President can do --

O`DONNELL: Go ahead, Professor Charles, go ahead.

CHARLES: Really, one of the things that the President can do is to return
America back to thinking about the fundamental of who counts as a first
class citizen in this country.

That has always been the question from the founding, especially as it
relates to African-Americans who did not officially count. And even when
they did post-1865, it only counted in name only.

And part of what this dispute shows us that it`s important for everyone to
count as a first class citizen. And the disparities that we`re seeing in
housing, in criminal justice, et cetera, have to go away.

And we need the President to speak and to take leadership on those issues
and help move us forward.

O`DONNELL: Janai Nelson.

NELSON: That`s right. I mean, Lawrence, it`s very easy to condemn a
massacre, right. That`s the easiest statement to make.

It`s much harder to have a conversation about race and racism. It`s much
harder to say that it doesn`t involve overt acts of racism but structural

And that we are all culpable, our institutions are culpable, our policies
are culpable and that this is really an opportunity to have a meaningful
dialogue about the structures of racism.

That`s the more difficult conversation to have.

O`DONNELL: And that will be the last word of this discussion tonight but
not the last word on this discussion. Eugene Robinson, Mark Thompson,
Janai Nelson and Guy Charles, thank you all very much for joining me

NELSON: Thank you.

ROBINSON: Thank you, Lawrence.

THOMPSON: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.


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