All In With Chris Hayes, Friday, June 26th, 2015
Read the transcript from the Friday show
Show: ALL IN with CHRIS HAYES
Date: June 26, 2015
Guest: Rob Talmas, Joseph Vitale, Tammy Baldwin, Jelani Cobb, Joy Reid,
CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes
on a huge, historic, absolutely head-snapping news day, this Friday on one
of the most consequential weeks in the presidency of President Obama.
Today was the day that the Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage
in all 50 states. We will talk to the plaintiffs who brought the case live
from the historic Stonewall Inn in just a minute. You see them there.
Today was also the day that President Obama gave a passionate and rousing
eulogy to the slain pastor of Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, delivering
one of the great speeches in recent memory and even leading the
congregation in the singing of "Amazing Grace." We will play you that and
take you to South Carolina for reaction.
But, first, an update on the latest breaking news on this day, we have
in Upstate New York, where a nearly three-week-long manhunt for two escaped
murderers is coming to a dramatic head. At this hour, one escaped prisoner
is dead while one remains at large. Richard Matt and David Sweat escaped
from a maximum security prison 21 days ago.
Tonight, law enforcement tells NBC News, Richard Matt has been shot
and killed while authorities believe they are close to closing in on Sweat.
Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York is expected to address the situation
later in this hour. If it happens in this hour, we will bring that news
conference to you live.
Joining me now, NBC News correspondent John Yang.
John, can you give us the latest?
JOHN YANG, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Here`s what we know, Chris. We
know that New York State Police Major Charles Guess told us in a statement
that at 3:45 this afternoon, a tactical unit doing a search through a
wooded area -- through an area near here encountered someone, shot him and
killed him. They believe that man to be Richard Matt.
Now, law enforcement officials speaking on background tell NBC News
that it was a customs and border patrol tactical unit that carried that
out. We spoke, or actually, WPTZ, our NBC affiliate in Plattsburgh spoke
with a witness nearby who said they heard a single shot, which suggests it
was not a shoot-out, but a single shot, a shot from a tactical unit with a
tactical rifle taking out, they believe, Richard Matt.
The officials also tell us that there was evidence in the area that
suggested David Sweat was nearby. They have sealed off that area. They
have flooded that area with all sorts of people, New York state police,
Customs and Border Patrol, U.S. Marshals, FBI, New York state forestry
officers, now searching that area. They`re helped a little bit that
there`s a natural boundary on one side, Lake Titus. They can close in on
this area. They say that they are in pursuit.
Law enforcement officials tell NBC News that there was a second round
of gunfire in this pursuit. We don`t know what that was about. We don`t
know who was doing the firing. We don`t know much about what`s going on in
They are fighting the elements. The sun will go down at 8:47 here in
this area. There will be some daylight after the sun drops down below the
horizon, but after that, David Sweat may have a little bit of the upper
hand. They do have night vision equipment. They do have infrared tracking
technology from the U.S. Customs and Border Patrol that they can us use.
Once things cool down in that area from the daylight heating, they can
build up the contrast between body heat and the environment.
So, what we know now is they believe they have shot and killed one of
the escapees, Richard Matt. They believe they are in pursuit of the other,
David Sweat -- Chris.
HAYES: John Yang, thank you very much.
Joining me now, NBC News correspondent Stephanie Gosk, who is also in
the area, near Malone, New York, about 35 miles from the correctional
facility from which the two men escaped.
And, Stephanie, we spoke a little earlier. You had law enforcement
flooding the area. It sounds like they`re forming a perimeter and believe
they`re hot on the trail of David Sweat.
STEPHANIE GOSK, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, we have that
report that there was this second gun battle that John Yang was mentioning,
and we`re not sure right now what the outcome of that was.
But you know, we are right now on Route 30 in Malone. And John was
describing from law enforcement officials just exactly what went down with
Richard Matt. Well, they say that tactical team, actually they were coming
down on a sweep on this road when they heard gunfire at a campground, and
they went to check it out, and that`s when they came across Richard Matt.
All of this today happened very, very quickly, and there are only a
few roads that lead into this hotspot right now. A lot of people live in
this area. You know, there are multiple homes on the roads that we drove
in on. All of those roads have been shut down.
There are a bunch of residents in cars here right now who can`t get
back to their houses because they`re being told it`s just too dangerous to
get back there.
HAYES: All right. Stephanie Gosk in Upstate New York, thank you very
much. We`re going to keep our eyes on that. As I said, the governor will
probably be addressing the situation in just a bit.
But right now, today was a historic day for civil rights in America, a
day that will be written about in history books. On the same day President
Obama traveled to Charleston, South Carolina, to eulogize a slain civil
rights leader in a remarkable speech that we will bring you, the Supreme
Court found that the 14th Amendment of the Constitution of the United
States guarantees a right to marriage equality for every citizen in all 50
states beginning immediately. Celebrations and jubilation outside of the
Supreme Court when that ruling was announced this morning with the Gay
Men`s Chorus of Washington breaking out into the national anthem.
(VIDEO CLIP PLAYS)
HAYES: In San Francisco and across the country, gay rights supporters
gathered in exaltation, including outside New York City`s Stonewall inn,
the iconic site of the riots 46 years ago that kicked off the modern
movement for gay equality. Celebrations are going on tonight across the
nation, and the party continues here in New York City, where in an
impeccable bit of timing, the gay pride celebration is this weekend.
We will take you live to Stonewall. You`re seeing that right now, in
just a moment. In states where same-sex marriage had been illegal until
today, couples were instantly and finally free, for the most part, to tie
the knot, in some cases after years or decades of waiting.
This Dallas couple, Jack Evans and George Harris, married today after
54 years together. The Supreme Court decision was narrow, 5-4, with
Justice Anthony Kennedy writing the majority decision and concluding that
the Constitution, particularly the 14th Amendment, grants same-sex couples
equal protection in the eyes of the law.
Kennedy sided with the court`s four liberal justices against the four
conservatives, each of whom wrote their own scathing dissent, though
Justice Roberts was somewhat more measured.
The decision was met with protests and condemnation in some quarters,
including from some elected officials. In Pike and Geneva Counties in
Alabama, judges there went so far as to vow not to issue marriage licenses
to anyone in the wake of the ruling. But for same-sex couples and their
supporters, it was a day of enormous pride.
One celebrated by a president who himself broke civil rights barriers
and who hailed all those who fought for this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Those countless, often
anonymous heroes, they deserve our thanks. They should be very proud.
America should be very proud.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now from outside the Stonewall Inn here in New York
are Rob Talmas and Joseph Vitale, a married couple who with their son
Cooper were plaintiffs in today`s case.
And, gentlemen, where were you when you got the news? How`d you get
ROB TALMAS, PLAINTIFF IN SAME SEX MARRIAGE CASE: We were actually in
MSNBC studios waiting to go on this morning. And you know, we heard at
10:01, you know, getting to the studio and sit down --
JOSEPH VITALE, PLAINTIFF IN SAME SEX MARRIAGE CASE: We won.
TALMAS: -- and we won. And so, we didn`t have a lot of time to
really digest what happened. But you know, over the course of the day, I
mean, we`re just so excited. Words can`t even say how excited we are.
HAYES: What does it mean to you that this ruling came down today?
How likely would you have viewed this ten years ago?
TALMAS: It was kind of hard to hear.
HAYES: How likely would you have viewed this as ten years ago?
VITALE: Oh, highly unlikely.
TALMAS: Yes, highly unlikely. I don`t think ten years ago this would
have even been -- the momentum wasn`t behind it, I think. The precedence
now going into this case, while we were always hopeful, you know, there was
precedent behind it, and a lot of momentum and public support on both
sides, and, you know, we are just so excited about the ruling and how it
turned out. And you know, what a great time it is.
HAYES: Hey, Joseph, your son is also part of this, part of -- one of
the plaintiffs. What does it mean for your son, what kind of America he is
going to grow up in with this decision today?
VITALE: He`s going to know nothing but equality in all 50 states.
So, it will give us the freedom to travel throughout this great land that
we call our own, knowing the fact that we are both listed as his parents,
his legal parents. We also knew that because we lived in New York and they
acknowledged that we`re his legal parents, but there were 13 holdout
states. And as a result of today`s ruling, we are free to move about the
HAYES: What is the scene down there? It was already going to be
pride weekend this weekend, which is always a big celebratory weekend.
Stonewall`s just been declared a historic site. What`s it like down there
tonight right now?
TALMAS: Well, it`s just amazing. You know, there`s thousands of
people. Everybody`s super excited and happy. The rally was fantastic.
The energy is just -- it`s electric. It`s amazing. People are just so
VITALE: You couldn`t have asked for a better weekend --
VITALE: -- to rule it out.
Obviously, we have to be very conscious of what went down in South
Carolina, but you know, we`ve reflected upon that and now we move on to
celebration and moving forward in a free and equal land that we call our
TALMAS: Everybody`s just really excited.
HAYES: Rob Talmas and Joseph Vitale, triumphant plaintiffs today on
this absolutely remarkable and historic day. Thank you, gentlemen. I
really appreciate it. Enjoy the celebration and the weekend.
TALMAS: Thank you.
VITALE: Thank you. Bye-bye.
HAYES: All right. Joining me now, Democratic Senator Tammy Baldwin
of Wisconsin, who made history in 2012 when she became the first openly gay
American elected to the U.S. Senate.
Senator Baldwin, your reaction to today`s ruling.
SEN. TAMMY BALDWIN (D), WISCONSIN: Oh, just joy. You know, love is
love, family is family, and discrimination against anyone`s love or
anyone`s family is wrong, and now the U.S. Supreme Court says it`s also
unconstitutional. This is a huge milestone in our march towards equality
HAYES: It`s just remarkable to me how quickly the politics of this
have changed. I watched then-Senator Hillary Clinton on the floor of the
Senate in 2004 talking about marriage being between one man and one woman,
about how central child-rearing was to it, which was at the time the
consensus position of not just the Republican Party, the conservative
movement or evangelical evangelicals, but the Democratic Party, of every
national Democratic leader, practically.
And in ten years, we`re going to watch the White House be lit up in
rainbow colors tonight. Can you get your head around what`s happened?
BALDWIN: You know, it`s very exciting to see the change that we`ve
seen just in recent years. But I have to say, this is an issue that I`ve
been working on since at least the mid-`90s. And we questioned ourselves
back then, will we ever see the day, and how incredible and exciting it is,
and also to see the progress of American public opinion and how far we`ve
come. And the history in this country is that each generation leaves to
the next an America that`s more equal, not less.
HAYES: The politics of this are not completely gone, of course. The
court issued a 5-4 decision, four dissenting opinions. And we`ve also
gotten statements from a variety of presidential candidates on the
Republican side, saying they don`t agree with the decision.
Your home state governor, Scott Walker, who many anticipate will
declare for president, saying not only does he not agree with the opinion,
but he supports a constitutional amendment that would reverse it. What do
you think about that?
BALDWIN: Well, I`m pretty shocked at his statement today on the eve
of his announcing his candidacy for the presidency. You know, just a year
ago, he said very different things about this. He said, my opinion`s not
really relevant, it`s in the Constitution. He should embrace those words
today, because the court has found that discrimination is unconstitutional.
Later in the year, he basically said it was settled, as state after
state began to recognize same-sex marriages as marriage equality. Battles
were won in the states across this country. And today`s statement was
shocking. And I think Republican primary voters ought to ask some tough
questions about his recent change in tone and change in opinion.
HAYES: Many court watchers thought that this would be the opinion the
court delivered, partly because of the way that the Windsor decision was
structured, partly because of the tremendous near unanimity in lower courts
where it required essentially states to recognize all couples. How much,
having worked on this for two decades, was there a kind of pit in your
stomach that you could wake up and be disappointed?
BALDWIN: You know, I was feeling very hopeful about this case for so
many different reasons, many of which you have just cited. But I really
believed that it was going to come out the way it did, and I can`t tell you
how delighted I am to be able to celebrate, again, this important step in
the march towards full equality and freedom.
But we do have more steps to take in that march. As we know, still
some states have not passed laws to protect people in the LGBT community
from discrimination of a variety of sorts, and there are many who fear
that, you know, you could get married in the morning and still fired in the
afternoon in too many states in this nation.
So, it is a huge milestone, and we`re so joyous, but we have more work
HAYES: Yes, it`s remarkable to wrap your head around the fact that
there are dozens of states in the union right now in which you can get
married in the morning, put a picture of your spouse up in your cubicle and
be fired for it legally that very same day. So, work left to be done.
But, Senator Tammy Baldwin, thank you and congratulations on a huge
BALDWIN: Thank you so much, Chris.
HAYES: All right. So much more ahead on this absolutely incredible
day. Stay with us.
HAYES: There are these moments in the presidency of Barack Obama,
moments when the sheer profundity, the sheer scope and scale of what it
means to have Barack Obama as president of the United States just kind of
knocks you back. It leaves you speechless.
Today, when the president walked into that church, when he walked into
that auditorium to deliver his eulogy amidst thousands of mourners, you had
a sense it was going to be one of those moments. And oh, my Lord, was it
ever. We will show you what that looked like ahead.
HAYES: Expectations were extremely high for President Obama today in
Charleston where he was scheduled to deliver the eulogy at the funeral for
reverend and state senator, Clementa Pinckney, one of nine people murdered
last week in the massacre at Emanuel AME Church.
Amid the ensuing debate about race in America, the legacy of the
Confederacy and its symbols, and with the nation turning to its first black
president to help make sense of it all, President Obama walked into the
auditorium, clapping along to a gospel song being sung, and he did not
disappoint. He began with a moving tribute to Reverend Pinckney, a
prominent figure in South Carolina who the Obamas knew personally, before
making his first comments on the confederate battle flag.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: For too long, we were blind to the pain that the confederate
flag stirred in too many of our citizens. As we all have to acknowledge,
the flag has always represented more than just ancestral pride. For many,
black and white, that flag was a reminder of systemic oppression and racial
We see that now. Removing the flag from this state`s capitol would
not be an act of political correctness, it would not be an insult to the
valor of Confederate soldiers, it would simply be an acknowledgment that
the cause for which they fought, the cause of slavery was wrong.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: One of the most stirring and memorable moments of his entire
presidency, one that seemed to be completely spontaneous, President Obama
burst into song.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Amazing grace. Amazing grace.
(singing): Amazing grace. How sweet the sound. That saved a wretch
like me. I once was lost, but now I`m found. Was blind, but now I see --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Joining me now, Jelani Cobb, staff writer of "The New Yorker,"
director of the Institute of African-American Studies at the University of
Jelani, you were there today. We all watched that in the office just
-- in total wrapped disbelief at what we were seeing. What was it like to
be in that arena?
JELANI COBB, THE NEW YORKER: Well, you know, as you can hear from the
audio, people just erupted when he began singing. And it`s hard to really
convey, you know, the intensity of that moment of silence that preceded it.
You know, there`s that interminable pause, and, you know, you`re
wondering, has he lost his way in his text, you know? Has he become
overcome with emotion?
And then he returns to the theme, you know, with this song, and a song
that is so appropriate, not only in terms of the theme of grace, which had
been kind of, you know, threaded throughout, you know, his eulogy, but also
this being a gospel song, you know, one of the most famous gospel songs,
written by John Newton, a man who had been a slave trader himself, who
found God and became an abolitionist.
And so, what Obama was really talking about was that kind of
metaphorical transformation in taking down the Confederate flag, that same
type of redemption, racial redemption through, you know, Christian
fellowship and Christian love. It was an amazingly profound moment.
HAYES: The speech itself, which centered on this concept of grace.
He talked about the reverend, but then he talked about the Christian
concept of grace and how grace is something bestowed on us, even though we
don`t deserve it. We`re all fallen. We`re all sinners, according to
Christian theology, but grace is given to us by a benevolent God and then
it`s up to us to do something with it.
And he talked about this in this incredible context of what this last
week and a half has been with the Confederate flag and with guns and with
politics, about we`ve now been granted something. We have to earn our way
COBB: Right. And you know, the interesting thing about this is that
this is kind of the sequel to the race speech that he gave in 2008. And
it`s interesting to look at those two speeches as bookends, because in
that, you know, that speech, to the extent that it was a brilliant, you
know, work of craftsmanship, but it suffered from a kind of even-handedness
that many people found unsettling.
But in this speech, this is someone who has been in office for six
years, someone who -- 6 1/2 years -- someone who`s looking toward the end
of his presidency and who has, you know, been bruised in some of the things
that he`s seen. He`s gone through the point where he`s no longer the
idealistic person who talked about hope and change. And so, he talked
about race in a much more specific way. He talked about institutional
racism. He talked about the point where he brought everyone to his feet
where he said you called Johnny back for a job interview, but you don`t
HAYES: Stop right there, Jelani. I`m sorry that was amazing. Let me
just play that clip, because that moment was absolutely incredible. Take a
listen to this clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Maybe we now realize the way racial bias can infect us, even
when we don`t realize it. So that we`re guarding against not just racial
slurs, but we`re also guarding against the subtle impulse to call Johnny
back for a job interview but not Jamal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: Amazing moment, also grounded, I should say in some pretty
good social logical research that`s been done.
HAYES: In fact, by the paper, by economists sort of precisely on
racialized names and likely to call back. Devah Pager, a sociologist at
Harvard has done research on black versus white names on resumes. It`s all
very true in terms of what we know from the data.
COBB: Right, it absolutely is. And in some sense, I think what the
president was also doing was articulating the causes that had animated the
life of the man he was called to eulogize.
And that was something that you saw also throughout the service and
very much explicitly when the president began talking, when he said, "Who
was Reverend Clementa Pinckney? What did he care about, you know, what
were the things he was concerned with?" And even pushing himself and
pushing the rest of us forward a little bit, we said that we can`t simply
have a symbolic gesture, even if it is an important symbolic gesture by
taking down the flags. There are more things than that that have to be
HAYES: I thought that moment where he also says every time we have a
conversation -- he says we don`t need a conversation about race. We talk
about race all the time. There`s a lot of stuff we need to do.
HAYES: That was also just an incredibly frank, honest, incredible
COBB: Right, it was. One thing I will say, one quibble was that I
kind of hoped when he said that, that he would present at least the
symbolic gesture or something in recognition of Reverend Pinckney`s life.
I thought that at that point that he might say, oh, well, in honor of his
life, we are going to do this. And that was one thing that I was kind of
looking for in the speech that I didn`t see.
But that said, this was still a masterful work of oratory.
HAYES: Yes, and really just affecting. I would say this is one of
those times when the Internet is your friend because you can watch the
whole thing online. It`s 40 minutes. It`s worth every single second.
Don`t watch now. Keep watching our program, but afterwards, or after
Rachel`s done or after all of our programming, watch it tonight.
Jelani Cobb in Charleston, thank you so much.
COBB: Thank you.
HAYES: We`re going to bump out with a little bit more of the
president today eulogizing Reverend Pinckney. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: It was an act that drew on a long history of bombs and arson
and shots fired at churches, not random, but as a means of control, a way
to terrorize and oppress.
An act that he imagined would insight fear and recrimination, violence
and suspicion, an act that he presumed would deepen divisions, that trace
back to our nation`s original sin. Oh, but God works in mysterious ways.
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
God has different ideas!
(CHEERS AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HAYES: The sun is setting in Washington, D.C., and as it sets, you
can see that the White House is lit up tonight in rainbow colors, those
colors beginning to manifest themselves against the twilight of darkness.
The colors in celebration of today`s historic ruling granting marriage
equality in all 50 states, grounded in the constitution.
We are also at this hour on one of the craziest news days in recent
memory awaiting a press conference from the governor of New York. He is in
upstate New York, just a few miles from the Canadian border, where earlier
today one of the two men who escaped from Clinton Correctional Facility,
Richard Matt, was shot and
killed by law enforcement.
The hunt for David Sweat continues. Law enforcement officials believe
he is in the area. We anticipate an update of some form from the governor
on all of that. We will keep our eyes posted on that.
Joining me now, MSNBC contributor Josh Barro to talk about this
And I`m fascinated by the politics of this. Substantively, I`m less
fascinated and more disheartened because it`s the right thing and it`s good
and it`s a tremendous cause of celebration.
Where do you see the Republican Party on this issue now? A lot of
people today saying behind closed doors, Republican political consultants
are very happy this is not a live issue.
JOSH BARROW, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Oh, absolutely. I think almost 100
percent of the Republican consultant class, professional staffer class,
would really very much like this issue to go away.
HAYES: In fact, I would even say a large majority of them are
probably substantively in favor of the ruling.
BARRO: Yes. Although I think also a lot of -- the sort of person who
becomes a professional Republican staffer in a blue state -- and most of
them live in blue states because they live in and around Washington -- are
people who don`t care that much about this issue. I think a lot of them
would say that they`re in favor of it, but really they just -- I think
they`re pleased to not be having to talk about it too much and to focus
more on the issues they actually care about.
In terms of the candidates, I think they`re breaking out into three
areas. You see Jeb Bush and Lindsey Graham say today that they don`t think
the Republican Party should pursue a constitutional amendment to reopen the
Lindsey Graham rather explicitly said they can`t win. They can`t get
two-thirds in congress or the states, so there`s no reason to have a
divisive fight over that they`ll lose.
A Jeb Bush spokesperson said that they won`t pursue -- they wouldn`t
pursue that. Then you saw candidates like Scott Walker saying, no, there
should be a constitutional amendment to give this power back to state
governments to decide how marriage should be regulated. And then you had
Mike Huckababee talking about how you don`t have to obey the Supreme Court
when they make a decision that`s invalid. It`s up to congress and the
president to stick up to the court when the court misinterprets the
So, you have, like, three possible different levels of resistance to
this, and I think that unfortunately for that Republican consultant class,
that`s going to end up being a live fight in this Republican primary.
HAYES: That is -- this is a really important point, because I think
everyone was thinking and hoping within the Republican strategic class,
this will take it out of our hands, it will render it a moot issue, but
with so many candidates, and particularly when you`re focusing on Iowa
caucuses, which have a very strong brace of evangelical Christians who I
don`t think feel any differently about marriage than they did ten years
ago, that it is going to be a live issue because Mike Huckabee and Scott
Walker and others can make it a live issue because they can press those
candidates on these positions.
BARRO: I think that`s true except for one thing, one reason that I
think Jeb Bush`s position may win the day even within the Republican Party
on this, which is the immense fatalism you hear from opponents of marriage
equality. They all understand this is an issue that they were going to
lose. They talk about it as something that even if they feel they have to
fight, there`s sort of this understanding that not only is the trend
against them, but increasingly, the country is against them.
And so, I think that messaging from Lindsey Graham is actually
something you will hear over and over from Republicans who do not want to
pursue a constitutional amendment. Sort of, look, we`re going to lose.
BARRO: Do you really want to have this fight if we`re going to lose?
HAYES: Right, as opposed to making this a substantive argument.
The other thing to keep in mind today, there are two ways of reading
the opinions. There are four dissents. The Justice Scalia dissent is
every bit as furious, mocking, and insulting as you might imagine. He
talks at one point about how he would rather hide his head in a bag than be
associated with the majority opinion, which he refers to as essentially
having the wisdom of a fortune cookie.
I mean, it is like -- he`s like an insult comic, basically. Even
turning it up to 11 compared to yesterday`s ACA dissent, which was already
turned up to 11.
But he also is -- it`s the most sweeping decision they could have
reached, right? Because they could have reached a narrower decision that
says states have to recognize other states` marriages, but you actually
don`t have to yourself in your state conduct them, but that`s not what they
did. 50 states, all square.
Well, I think, you know, as you mentioned there were four dissents.
It`s very unusual to have four justices in dissent, each issuing their own
particularly joining each other`s dissents. It`s like they each wanted
their own voice on the record of exactly why they were so upset about this
But I thought the Roberts dissent was very interesting in that in many
ways very similar to Roberts` majority opinion in the health care decision
yesterday, both opinions saying over and over again how we have to respect
the intent of the
legislatures, in this case talking about how it was state legislators and
voters that decided marriage would be this way, rejecting the idea that
must be just about ill intent and contempt by the voters and the
legislators who put those decisions there.
Similarly yesterday in the health care case, talking about how, you
know, obviously, did not intend to break the health care market with this.
They intended to improve it. So in both cases...
HAYES: A little bit a through line of judicial restraint.
That`s a live picture outside of the Stonewall Inn, which is, of
course, the site of a riot 76 years ago when police were busting what was
then essentially an illegal gay bar because being gay was illegal at that
The crowd congregating on the eve of what will be Pride Weekend here.
Obviously, jubilant exultation in the wake of the decision today.
We are also seeing resistance at the state level.
We are also, I should say, at this moment, awaiting a possible press
conference from Governor Andrew Cuomo, that about the developments in
upstate New York pertaining to the two convicts who escaped from Clinton
Correctional Facility, one of whom, we believe, Richard Matt was shot and
killed by law enforcement earlier. The other one remains at large.
Just keeping you abreast of everything that`s going on on this
whirlwind of a day. We are seeing some resistance in the states.
Louisiana`s attorney general
saying we`re not issuing marriage licenses immediately. Texas`s attorney
general saying the same thing, although local counties, like Tarrant
County, saying we are, the county -- Dallas County issuing.
And then Alabama has two counties that say we`re shutting the whole
thing down, no marriage licenses being issued. How long do you think that
resistance can last?
BARRO: Not very long. I mean, it`s -- while this was working its way
through the courts and while you had decisions that, you know, were issued
against one entity, one state...
HAYES: I`m going to stop you right there, because I believe Andrew
Cuomo is stepping up right to the podium right now. Let`s take a listen to
Governor Andrew Cuomo giving us the latest on the two escaped killers from
Clinton Correctional Facility at this hour.
ANDREW CUOMO, GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: Thank you. Good evening to all
of you. I want to thank the New York State Police for being here, the
Department of Corrections Services, DEC, our partners from the FBI, the
U.S. Marshals, U.S.
Customs and Border Patrol. We have the Vermont State Police here, Clinton
County District Attorney, the Franklin County District Attorney, the
sheriffs from Franklin and Clinton, Plattsburgh City Police, Malone
Village Police Department and the State Regis Mohawk Tribal Police.
This afternoon, as has been reported, there was a civil complaint,
civilian complaint in the town of Duane. There was a gunshot that was
fired at a camping trailer. The state police responded to investigate the
complaint. They came upon a cabin. They went inside the cabin. They
detected the smell of gun powder.
The law enforcement partners were then notified and the Customs and
Border Patrol tactical team helicoptered in and approached the site.
The team came upon Matt, who was an escaped prisoner from Dannemora,
engaged Mr. Matt, who was armed, and Mr. Matt was shot and killed.
We have no reason to believe that Mr. Sweat was not with Mr. Matt at
the time, but we don`t have any confirming evidence that he was, either.
There are several leads that are being tracked down as we speak about
Mr. Sweat and his possible whereabouts, but we don`t have anything to
confirm where Mr.
Sweat is at this time.
I want to thank New Yorkers. I want to thank the people of Clinton
County and Franklin County who have put up with a lot over these past 20
days. We`ve had over 2,300 leads, so New Yorkers have been very helpful in
responding to put an
end to this crisis.
I want to thank our partners in law enforcement who have done an
extraordinary job, our local partners, our federal partners who have been
away from their homes and their families to come here and help us over
these past three weeks or so.
You never want to see anyone lose their life, but I would remind
people that Mr. Matt was an escaped murderer from a state prison. Mr. Matt
killed two people who we know about. Mr. Matt killed his boss in a dispute
and dismembered him. He fled to Mexico and then he killed another person
in Mexico and was imprisoned in Mexico.
Mr. Sweat is also dangerous. Mr. Sweat was involved in the killing of
a sheriff`s deputy in Broome County, where the sheriff`s deputy had come
upon a crime. Mr. Sweat and his accomplices hit the sheriff`s deputy with
the car, got out and shot him 22 times and then ran over him.
So, these are dangerous, dangerous men. And that`s why you see law
enforcement from across this country arrayed before you today, cooperating
with one mission to bring these gentlemen to justice.
I`m now going to turn it over to Superintendent Joseph D`Amico, who is
head of the state police, which has been heading up the investigation in
cooperation with our partners.
I would remind everyone that this is an ongoing investigation, so the
amount of information that can be provided to the public is something that
we have to watch carefully.
Obviously, we don`t want to give the people we`re pursuing any more
information than we need to. With that, Superintendent Joseph D`Amico.
JOSEPH D`AMICO, NEW YORK STATE POLICE: Thank you, governor.
So, I just wanted to take a second and bring you back to how we got
into this area searching where we discovered Matt today. So, as you
recall, we had a report of a burglary last Saturday where we were able to
identify property left at the
scene by Matt, and we deployed heavily in that area. That burglary was in
a camp about three miles off of any paved roadway.
Wednesday night, late Wednesday night, we received a report of a
break-in of a cabin off Route 41 in the town of Malone. A screen had been
cut and a window was broken into.
We responded up. We recovered evidence from that break-in, which also
indicated that Matt was present at that scene.
So, late yesterday, we deployed a number of uniformed officers and
tactical teams up to that area and started to establish a fairly wide grid
Into today we were able to confirm that property recovered at the
scene was, in fact, Matt this morning.
Late morning, we discovered through search teams what we believed to
be a camp where maybe somebody had laid down. We found candy wrappers and
some other things that were left behind. That was all seized.
And so, we had a fairly aggressive search in the area today.
And about 1:51 today, we received the report that a camper, a person
towing a camper, believed that their camper had been shot. Originally,
they had heard a sound. They thought maybe they had a flat. They got
out. They realized they didn`t have a flat. They drove on about eight
miles. And when they pulled into a camp site, they examined the trailer
that they were towing and realized that there was a bullet hole through the
back of the camper.
So, based on that, they notified state police. We responded and
realized that the location of the shooting was probably about eight miles
back. And as the governor indicated, we deployed teams from multiple
agencies to that area.
We were able to get into the cabin where we discovered the smell of
gun powder and realized that a weapon had been fired. Also, there was
someone recently had been there and had fled out the back door.
As we were doing the ground search in the area, there was movement
detected by officers on the ground, what they believed to be coughs, so
they knew they were dealing with humans as opposed to wildlife. And a
team, a tactical team from Customs and Border Protection met up with Matt
in the woods, challenged him, and he was shot dead by border patrol at that
We recovered a 20-gauge shotgun from Matt`s body at the location.
Based on that, we continue to search. We have a lot of people in the
area. We have canines and we have a decent perimeter set up, and we`re
searching for Sweat at this time. We have no actual sighting of Sweat by
law enforcement, but we have no indication that Sweat wasn`t accompanying
Matt at the time that he was shot and killed, so we`re going to maintain
the perimeter that we have, continue to do a good ground search, just as we
have in the last couple of days, a tactic that`s been successful for us in
And until such time as we receive other information, you know, we`ll
be doing a very thorough search.
We`ve followed up on in excess of 2,400 leads at this time. We take
every one of them serious. We thank the public for the tips that they`ve
called in. And just as the governor said, I`d like to thank all my law
enforcement partners who stand here with me today. A tremendous effort on
the ground over the last three weeks, 24 hours a day, you know, in the
We couldn`t have done it without the people who are standing here. We
truly appreciate it. I would also like to extend my personal thanks to the
people of the communities where we`ve been searching.
You know, we know that it`s very intrusive to have...
HAYES: Update from the governor and law enforcement about the
situation in upstate New York, basically confirming what we already know --
Richard Matt has been killed by law enforcement. David Sweat remains at
large, although law enforcement officials believe they have an area.
They will continue to search for him. And if we get any more news
about that search, we will, of course, bring it to you here live.
When we come back, MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid and Kenji
Yoshino, who literally wrote one of the books on gay marriage.
HAYES: Joining me now, MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid, sand
still with me, MSNBC`s Josh Barro. Kenji Yoshino, who is a phenomenal
scholar on this, who we had booked for tonight and then the breaking news
interrupted. And so I apologize to him and to you viewers, who were
looking forward to him.
This week, this week. Today was so insane and head-spinning, and we
many moving parts, you could lose sight of what this week meant. I mean,
if you just took the 48 hours of the ACA decision and the marriage ruling
that 48 hours, the Obama presidency is one of the most monumental shifts in
American society and social life and policy of any presidency,
particularly, you know, in the last 100 years, let`s say.
And that`s just the two things that happened...
JOY REID, MSNBC CORRESPONDETN: Not even with the singing in the
HAYES: That`s not even with the singing in church.
REID: Not even with the song in church. Full stop. I mean, since
the Johnson era, I don`t think there`s been this concentrated amount of
really dramatic policy change that moved the country significantly in a
So, we`re talking at least a 50-year span between the LBJ era, which
was incredibly productive for what progressives want the country to be, and
now. And the irony of it, Chris, the irony is, in the first 18 months of
the Obama presidency, he was being assailed by the left, who didn`t think
he was being aggressive enough in pushing the conversation to the left.
And what did he say? He said he wanted you, the us, the people out
there in the world to be the change, to push the change. The LGBT
community did that in spades. They pushed the president, pushed the White
House, pushed the policy in congress and succeeded mightily.
HAYES: And let`s be clear, right, in terms of how this dynamic works.
I mean, there was a transimmigrant woman heckling the president in the
White House the other day.
HAYES: And I saw lots of people posting this thing about, like the
president shut her down or whatever. But you know who else was heckling
the president? Gay folks were heckling the president on marriage and on
don`t ask, don`t tell, and were right and the White House came to those
REID: Came to them.
HAYES: And there has been a synergy, the places where the most
progress has been made, there has been both the White House threading the
needle and also activists and organizers` pressures.
BARRO: And it was activists kicking and screaming that don`t ask,
don`t tell had to be done before the end of the congress in 2010...
HAYES: It`s so funny, because don`t ask, don`t tell was such a huge
deal at time.
It`s like, oh, right, yeah, we did that. That was like a huge fight.
BARROW: Yeah, but it -- there were a number of things that the White
House had on its list that they did not do in that congress. I think not
properly anticipating how they might not be able to do them again during
the rest of the presidency.
So, I think, you know, the first two years, there were these big
legislative actions and it`s telling that the things we`re looking at this
week are not legislative actions.
BARRO; But they are big, monumental things for the president`s
REID: But the reason that the president largely couldn`t do those
things in the congress is because the singular focus of this White House
was health care.
HAYES: Right. That`s right, yes.
REID: And so, now that the Supreme Court to also ratify and really
in granite health care, huge.
HAYES: And that`s why actually the stakes on both those Supreme Court
decisions have been so high.
HAYES: Because the amount of political capital that was spent by this
president, by the Democratic Party. I mean, the Democratic Party
sacrificed a national congressional majority of the Affordable Care Act.
It has sacrificed numerous senators. I mean, that law was not popular for
a long time.
REID: That`s right.
HAYES: Whatever you say about the Affordable Care Act, you cannot say
that it was done for political expedience.
BARRO: That`s right.
HAYES: I mean like, because they have paid. They have paid and paid
spent down that political capital.
HAYES: And the idea that after all that, after the sort of political
casualties that mounted up, that a court would come in and yank it away?
That was tough.
BARRO; Although, I actually for this week for monumental changes this
week, I want to nominate the stuff that went on around the confederate
HAYES: Because that`s the other thing.
BARRO: And it`s not that the flag matters so much itself, although it
matters a great deal, but it`s sort of this decision that we`re not going
to tolerate anymore this idea that the confederacy was good and that we
should honor both sides in the civil war and treat it like it was a
reasonable dispute among
people who might disagree about things.
It`s saying, no, it`s not just -- people say the southeast to admit
its lost -- no, it`s the southeast to admit that it was wrong.
BARRO: And I think finally it`s been this decision that, no, this is
not going to be something that we accommodate both sides anymore.
HAYES: And that moment today at the funeral, when the president said
-- when he talked about the flag and he said that the recognition of the
cause for which they fought, slavery, was wrong.
Now, that`s like a moral tautology, right. That`s like the most
obvious noncontroversial statement, but in that space and in the political
seemed so defiant. And so remarkable that there was this amazing ovation
REID: And that you think about it, a black president who`s directly a
product of the 1960s civil rights movement that prompted the southern
put up that flag in defiance, in absolute ugly defiance of the idea that
the grandsons and granddaughters of the formerly enslaved could be their
equals, which is why the non slaveholders fought, quite frankly, for a
society in which they were above, even if they were at the lowest station
in life, were above every black citizen.
So, just that this president, a black president to stand in that
church that had been -- to stand in that church, giving that eulogy to nine
people who were essentially martyrs to this cause of trying to eradicate
vicious, vial racism, it`s all so dramatic and incredible.
HAYES: And there`s also this degree of this sort of tide of social
change in the country. I mean, we see -- you know, we`ve seen on gay
equality this just remarkable change in public opinion, the whiplash-
inducing change on the confederate flag just in the span of a week. And
there are times in the Obama
presidency where everything seems stuck and lodged and in a rut, and like,
the wagon is, like, can`t get back on the road.
And then all of a sudden, it`s back on the road and things are going
BARRO: I would also note with both of these something that might be -
- might make the left a little ambivalent. The outsized role of large
corporations in both of these social changes.
HAYES: Great point.
BARRO: Leaning on state governments.
Last year, Nikki Haley, when she was explaining why she didn`t want to
do anything about the confederate flag said, well, no CEO has ever called
me and said
the confederate flag is something they`re concerned about with doing
Now it`s clear that she and lots of other elected officials...
HAYES: Got those calls.
BARRO: Just like elected officials in states were leaned on about gay
REID: And now you see Walmart and all these other big-box retailers
saying we don`t want anything to do with that flag.
HAYES: And in some ways that is the big, great sort of battle yet to
be sort of won in some ways, is sort of this concentration of wealth,
concentration power, that`s been seen even through this era of tremendous
progress, which I think is giving some of the fire to Bernie Sanders.
I want to just take a second. Just take a look -- there`s the White
House, you know, in rainbow colors. Folks celebrating outside of the
Stonewall. Tonight I`m going to leave here, I`m going to go to the
retirement party of my father. He was a Jesuit and then he was a community
organizer, and he spent years as a community organizer and worked the last
20 years in the New York City department of health on health equity issues
-- lead paint, obesity, diabetes in poor neighborhoods.
And my dad is just a remarkable person who`s done remarkable work his
whole life. And I`ve been thinking about how change happens, particularly
the confederate flag and this today. And we think about it as sort of
linear thing, like you`re on a march up a hill and you know how far you
are. But it strikes me this week, it`s a lot more like getting the lid out
of a jar of jelly that`s stuck. And you pray and you pry and you pry and
you pry and feel it`s not budging at all. And you try again, and you get
frustrated, and you put it down and you come back to it. And then you hand
it to somebody else or you take it back and you give it a turn and it pops
off just like that.
And so, you know, you`ve just got to keep trying. And my dad has been
doing that for his whole career. So, thank you, dad.
Joy Reid and Josh Barro, thank you both. That is All In for this
evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts now.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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