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The Ed Show for Friday, June 26th, 2015

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Date: June 26, 2015
Guest: Marq Claxton, Pat Brown

ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Americans and welcome to the Ed Show.
Tonight, we start with our rolling coverage, Breaking News that is
unfolding in Upstate New York. Two senior New York State officials tell
NBC news that Richard Matt, the man on your screen right there, was one of
the two men who escaped from Upstate New York Correctional Facility, has
been shot and killed by law enforcement officials. Details of the shooting
have not been released by law enforcement as of yet. The escape took place
on June 6th. This is day 21 in a very heavily wooded area. And the
shooting apparently took place in the Titus Mountain area, which is about
15 miles south of the Canadian border.

Let`s go to NBC`s John Yang who joins us now by phone from Owls Head, New
York. John, the latest.

JOHN YANG, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Is now still going on Ed, as you state.
We now know that Richard Matt has been killed. You know, this is the first
confirmed sighting of Richard Matt since -- before he left prison almost
three weeks ago now tomorrow. This all happened very, very fast. They
were having sort of for a long time looked like they really didn`t have any
idea where these guys were. And then the big break came, started last
weekend when there was a break-in at the summer camp cabin near Mountain
View near Owls Head in this area about 20 miles from the prison. Someone
was going towards their cabin, saw it was broken into either saw or heard
someone fleeing from it. Went in found half eaten food. The police were
able to take that food and determine from DNA testing that at least one of
the fleeing inmates had been there.

Then again they searched that area. Things seem to have gone cold until
yesterday. Here in Malone they found another break-in at a cabin. More
evidence was found, sent to the state labs. Again DNA suggested or proved
that of the inmates had been there. This morning more evidence was found
in a field nearby and now this closing in on them. They have got Richard -
- I`m sorry. They have shot and killed Richard Matt. The question is, is
David Sweat far behind? They have no evidence. They`ve said all along,
they have no evidence two have split up. So the assumption is David Sweat
is somewhere in this area. They are clamping down here hoping he is still
in the area and they can now get him rather quickly. Ed.

SCHULTZ: John, do we know where the shooting took place? And do we know
any details of the shooting?

YANG: We don`t know yet. We do know it is apparently in an area around a
ski area, Titus Mountain. This has been where actually moved a lot of the
focus last night. They pulled down a lot of check points inside Owls Head
and Mountain View last night and moved a lot of the operations here or to
that area. We don`t know anymore details. This has really just happened
within the past hour or so. So it is unfolding rather quickly and we don`t
know many details yet.

SCHULTZ: John Yang with us tonight NBC News reporting from Owls Head, New
York. Let`s go to Clint Van Zandt, MSNBC Contributor and former FBI
profiler. Clint, thanks for your time tonight on this crucial story...


SCHULTZ: .... as it`s unfolding. Let`s talk about the area, the terrain.
It would seem to me that this heavily wooded area of Upstate New York was
probably one of their biggest advantages being on the lamb. I mean, to be
able to elude law enforcement. What are you thoughts on that?

ZANDT: Yeah, I this think you`re right Ed. I think what we`re going to
find out is once these individuals escaped and once Joyce Mitchell, who was
theirs get away driver, once she didn`t show up, it looks like as
complicate as their escape plan was outside of to get out of the wall, once
they got outside, they didn`t have a plan B. Plan B was let`s go from
cabin to cabin. Let`s hide from tree to tree. It looks like what these
guys have probably been doing is working their way through some of the over
perhaps 1,000 little hunting cabins, one room, two room, three room, little
cabins up there, breaking in, using the food, maybe the clothing. Getting
access to weapons and then moving on again.

And as I said, Ed, I think these two -- the relationship that may have kept
them together is obviously they needed each other. One needed to sleep.
Another needs to be on guard. They needed to protect each other. But once
they were seen, twice they were seen supposedly last week. Once running
out of a cabin and the second time their DNA was found in yet a second
cabin. Once law enforcement had that I think it confirmed what they
believed, Ed, that these guys had not been able to elude the circle of
between 800 and 1100 law enforcement officers that have kept these two
confined in this heavily wooded, thick area to move through.

And I`ve heard people say why can`t they catch them? They have planes and
infrared? Well, that those woods are so thick, Ed, that if you and I were
standing 10 feet apart we might not see each other. As well as other
things that move in the dark, be a deer, a bear, a dog, a human being is
going to give out a heat signal for the airplanes and helicopters. And
that`s been a tremendous challenge for law enforcement. And realize every
police officer, FBI agent, ATF agent moving through those woods there
woods, he or she is a potential target for these two individuals that the
state police have said are armed and dangerous and I think most of us
believe likely would not allow themselves to be taken alive.

SCHULTZ: All right, Clint Van Zandt, stay with us. I want to bring the
audience up to date. In case you just joined us the two fugitives who`re
on the run, one has been shot and killed by law enforcement in Upstate New
York. Richard Matt 48-years-old convicted murderer has been shot and
killed. David Sweat is still on the loose and there is a very intense
search taking place at this moment in Upstate New York. Searching
obviously for David Sweat. They don`t have any information as to whether
these two had split up. And details of the shooting have not been released
by law enforcement as of yet. We`re expecting that I would imagine pretty

But Clint, it is very interesting that there had to be a definite strategy
by these two fugitives. Because they didn`t steal a car. And they didn`t
take anyone hostage. What do you make of that? There seemed to be a very
direct strategy by these two to elude law enforcement in a certain way
using the woods to their advantage, what do you think?

ZANDT: Yeah, I think you are right Ed. They probably decided together if
we try to steal a car, if we try to take a hostage, anything like this,
that is going to tell law enforcement exactly, to the square foot, where we
were at a given time. So I think instead they made their way along these
trails. And Ed, know there are hiking trails. There are ATV trails that
lead from Dannemora, to Owls Head, to Malone. It passes through these
trails, passes through all of these areas that we`re told these individuals
have been, been sighted. Their DNA has been found.

But, you know, when you realize there are so many guys on the inside. So
many convicts on the inside and they spend their every waking hour, number
one thinking how they`re going to escape and trying to develop information
on what is outside. So, I would assume either by hook or crook these two
found out within a 50-70 miles square area how you move from point A to
point B without a vehicle in this case on foot.

But that was a very poor plan B. It didn`t get them out of the area and
again law enforcement has reacted so quickly to every potential movement.
Even though you can`t reach out and touch them, they knew that they knew
these two were still in this area. And the tenacity that these men and
women have shown I think is terrific. Especially we`ve had these ups and
downs, Ed, for the past two weeks or so. Everybody, you know, runs to a
spot we think we`ve seen them. Then we don`t see them. And then it
happens again. But law enforcement has not given up. They`ve stayed on
the hunt and as the state police told us yesterday there was a high
probability that one or more of these individuals had secured a weapon, a
shotgun, a rifle, a handgun -- something from one or more of these hunting

So I think every one of these 1,100 law enforcement officers realized when
they finally see these individuals. If they raise a weapon knowing that
these guys likely might not want to be taken. I don`t think anyone was
going to play games with them. This was a very deadly game of hide-and-
seek. Right now we know one of the two has lost. The search continues for
the second.

SCHULTZ: And thank you Clint Van Zandt. Stay with us tonight throughout
the rolling coverage.

Joining me now by phone is MSNBC reporter Adam Reiss who has been covering
this from the start. Adam, what can you tell us tonight?

ADAM REISS, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Ed, good evening. I can tell you the
intense manhunt is probably getting under way right now. I just want to
tell you according to the sheriff of Franklin County he was shot in
Elephant`s Head. That is south of Lake Titus and that is south of Malone,
where the DNA is located that they told us about today. So Sweat is either
going north or south from there. If he`s going south it is likely he`s
going right into the arms of this large contingent of law enforcement. But
if he`s going north and if he realizes how close the Canadian border is.
We spend some time with DHS and the boarder patrol.

They have cameras all along. You are looking at the map right there. You
see how close we are to Canada. Only a matter of miles. They have cameras
on numerous trees all along the border there. They call it "BuckEye."
these are cameras that automatically take a photo when there is a sensor
activated. So they have those cameras in force should he have decided to
go north into Canada. If he`s going south he`s likely going right into the
area where there are numerous law enforcement.

So, it will be interesting to see how quickly they can capture him. I can
tell you they have swarmed that area. As every day when there was a tip or
a lead, they would just swarm the area. So I`m -- I can imagine they have
done this times ten now that they have got Matt. And so, you know, the
search for Sweat continues. And you can bet that they`re just swarming
that area.

SCHULTZ: Adam, tell us again. Your information is that he was -- Richard
Matt was shot near Elephant Head, which is south of the Titus Mountain

REISS: It is south of Lake Titus. Which is also itself south of Malone if
you look at the map. The area is called Elephant`s Head. Ed, this is just
like all of this other area of the Adirondack Mountains. Just heavily
wooded, very difficult, very hazardous to get through, you`re looking at
some of these pictures in front of you. Those officers are standing on
someone`s home grounds. But once you go back into those woods, you`ve got
brush and you`ve got all kinds of debris that`s added up over the years.
And it was described by many people to us as just incredibly difficult to
get through. So, these guys have been making their way through these
mountains through these woods for days. But at least for one of them it`s
come to an end.

SCHULTZ: OK. And that is 48-year-old Richard Matt, confirmed dead. Shot
and killed by law enforcement earlier this afternoon.

Let`s turn now to Jim Cavanaugh MSNBC Law Enforcement Analyst. Jim, you
know, gives us a sense of the search at this point. Does it intensify now
that one has been shot and killed? And give us an idea of what we know of
the possibility of them splitting up?

spot on, Ed. I mean, these two guys were together and they were very
determined not to go back. You know, they are not people that could be
facing a trial. They are facing the absolute certainty of the cell. I`m
they are both serving live. Sweat killed a police officer. Matt a murder
here and a murder in Mexico. They with certainty they know they are going
back to the cell and they also know they are not going to the honor
building. So they are very determined to get away. And I think we may see
that Matt, as you have discussed, you know, might have had a shotgun or a
firearm and he was engaged by an officer and he was killed.

Now Sweat is alone on the mountain. His partner`s been killed. He likely
knows that. It is very hard to get your mind now set, no Matter what great
criminal you think you are, to be able to deal with all of this. I mean,
imagine you are in the north woods literally. You`ve got every officer and
agent and U.S. marshal after you. You`ve got the border face in you. It
is hard to think straight. I mean, I don`t think he`s going to last very
long. He`s not got a lot of food. He`s not going to be able to carry a
lot. And he doesn`t have a partner to encourage him.

So the good news for the citizen is, hopefully he`ll be apprehended without
anybody else getting hurt. But also he`s a very, very desperate guy and
doesn`t have a lot of options. So, you know, if he and get to somebody
there is still potential for injury or disaster to a citizen.

SCHULTZ: Jim Cavanaugh describing a very dire situation that David Sweat
is feeling right now. The anxiety, not thinking straight. The pressure
mounts, he doesn`t have anyone to lean on. Does that make him in the eyes
of the law enforcement more dangerous, more desperate? Give us a sense how
law enforcement is viewing the search right now. What changes?

CAVANAUGH: Yeah. Well, it does change for law enforcement to changes --
It`s better for them that they`re after just one, because two is worse. I
mean, they can -- one can be the lookout. One can, you know, sleep. One
can eat, one can rest. They can encourage and help each other. They can
aide each other on. They could jump somebody by one, you know, talking to
somebody and the other jumping in the back. So, they lose a lot of

When it is one guy you remember you`re dealing with one mind. And it is
the collective wisdom of all the men and women of law enforcement there.
And I like to use like they call it Ed, the collective wisdom in the
command post. I mean, there is a command post, the state police are
running, department of correction, all these sheriffs and police up in that
region. You know, federal agent, marshals, FBI, ATF. They are all there,
they are all talking and using their wisdom and saying how is he going to
move? What he`s going to do?

And they have done a great job on that so far. We don`t know of any
citizens who have been injured or killed since they escaped. But we don`t
know that, you know, anybody`s been hurt if that told true that`s good
news. Other than just Matt and it`s a law life lost certainly but just
him. Now, if Sweat can be captured tonight with nobody getting hurt, they
can go back and, you know, revisit the investigation.

I think that the real tale here is when you are in the penitentiary and you
have been tried by a jury or found guilty, and you truly are a guilty
person. Now there are a lot of innocent people that gets trapped in there
too. But if you are truly a guilty person you are not held by the walls of
the prison, you are held by the citizens of the United States and its laws.
And just getting over the walls is not good enough because the citizens and
its laws are going to track you down.

SCHULTZ: Jim Cavanaugh MSNBC Law Enforcement Analyst, stay with us tonight
as we have continuing coverage. Breaking News, Richard Matt, one of the
two escaped convicts has been shot and killed by a law enforcement in
Upstate New York.

For more let`s turn now on the telephone. With us is Marq Claxton, he`s
the director of Black Law Enforcement Alliance. 2,000 leads, 21 day, one
man down and one man David Sweat still on the loose.

Marq thanks for your time tonight. Mr. Claxton, sum up the intensity of
the search at this hour. What can you tell us?

intensity really has picked up significantly. And as previously stated and
especially on the part of law enforcement now. I mean, there are some
advantages now that just addressing or dealing with one person as opposed
to two as Jim early announce possibly. But there is also a tremendous
amount of anxiety from law enforcement. You are hot on that trail. When
you feel as if you are close to drawing conclusion to this situation. It
becomes, you know, a lot more emotion, a lot more adrenaline pumping and a
lot more focus on the obvious dangerous that exist.

And I tell you just from personal experience having been interesting (ph)
up in Malone, New York stayed in the cabin there and being lost in the
woods right alongside the Salmon River, it took the three of us seven hours
just to find an occupied cabin to be rescued from. And that was without
stress, without, you know, the feeling as if the walls were closing in on
us. But desperately trying to find our way through these thick woods and
accurately describe that at some points you really don`t see five feet
ahead of you. So, it is really dense and tricky vegetation, its tricky
maneuvering and under a lot of stress you are bound to make a mistake.

And I think law enforcement has done a tremendous job of maintaining that
perimeter and kind of trying to force a mistake out of both these
individuals. One now at least in custody and reported killed. And the
second one now, I`m confident, is desperately on the run and bound to make
a mistake at some point.

SCHULTZ: OK, Marq Claxton, thanks for your time tonight. We`ll have more
on this Breaking News story out of Upstate New York right after this.

Stay with us. You are watching MSNBC


SCHULTZ: Back on MSNBC our continuing coverage tonight. Breaking News one
of the two convicted killers who has been on the loose for 21 days has been
shot and killed by a law enforcement. 48-year-old Richard Matt is
reportedly dead. David Sweat the man on the right of your screen is still
on the loose. There is an intensive manhunt under way at this hour.

Let`s go back to Clint Van Zandt MSNBC Contributor and former FBI profiler.
Clint, let`s talk about the technology of this search and what happens
right now. What about the infrared technology? How good is that in this
densely wooded area? How effective is it and how are they going to use it
at this point?

ZANDT: Well, it`s been said in searches like this that law enforcement
rules the night. I know various tactical teams. FBI, SWAT teams, the
hostage rescue teams. I`m sure ATF and marshals tactical teams. All these
have night vision capability as well as fixed wing aircraft that can do
lazy 8s for hours at a time in the air that you can`t even hear when they
are above, as well as helicopters. They all have this capability. But
again you have to have a signal, Ed. You have to be able to differentiate
from a deer, from a bear, from a dog. There is going to be a lot of heat
signals that are going to be out there. And just know, Ed, I got some
information that there has been potentially two different bursts of gunfire
that have been heard in the area. One when an encounter was made with
Matt. And then there was a subsequent burst of gunfire that`s supposedly
been heard. I don`t know what this is yet, whether this is a second
sighting. Whether it is just a second report of the same gunfire. But
there is a hope that law enforcement may be getting very close to the
second fugitive, who you know is David Sweat.

SCHULTZ: OK. And Clint, one of the things that has to be taken under
consideration here as these two were on the run, isn`t it rather amazing
that there was never really a visual by anyone? That they were never
really spotted. They left a trail of going into these cabins. But your
thoughts on that that they were able to elude a visual sighting.

ZANDT: Well as, you know, there were sights in Philadelphia. There were
sightings along the U.S.-Mexican border. There were sightings in Canada.
There were over 2,000 tips and leads that came in but most if not all of
these allege sighting turned out to be bad. You know, a cab driver in
Philadelphia suggesting the two fugitives got inside of his cab. That the
Philadelphia police were able to refute.

You know there was one or two sightings we had Ed, that may have made
sense. Up in the area of the prison there was one report these two guys
were seen walking down the street. They were cutting through a backyard.
Allegedly apologized and took off in a run. But again, every time law
enforcement would move into the area, we`ve got a hot sighting, let`s go
for it. They came up empty handed.

It wasn`t until last week when I think that the safe money that said these
guys that they were in that area, if they stayed within a 25 mile radius of
the prison or so, they had to be breaking into these hunting cabins. They
had to be getting food, water, clothing, maybe guns and ammunition by
moving from one cabin to the next, to the next. We know two different
cabins within the last week. They found their DNA of one if not both
fugitives inside of that.

So, what that did was number one confirmed for law enforcement they were
still there. Don`t be chasing leads all over the country when we think the
two are still here. And number two, that they had food, they had water and
most importantly they had perhaps firearms. We know the state police as of
yesterday voiced the likelihood that one or more of these guys may have
acquired a gun and I think that somewhat changes the perspective for law
enforcement. We assume it is a dangerous fugitive hunt when you are
looking for two killers.

But now when there is solid information that they may have a gun in their
hand, I think every officer in that area was ready to deal with a threat if
he or she saw it. And apparently, at least in one and perhaps -- in a
second case that may have happened within the last hour.

SCHULTZ: And if I may get an analysis from you, Clint Van Zandt, on what
Sweat is going through right now. Is it harder for him to elude? How does
his situation change right now, now that one of them has been killed and
he`s now on his own?

ZANDT: If he was anywhere close to the second fugitive, to Matt, at the
time Matt was shot and killed, he would have heard that gunfire. He would
be running through those woods trying to put as much distance as he could
from that location and himself as he could. That is positive for law
enforcement again. We can hear him. He can see him from the ground. We
can see him above.

So, but I think right now you have really got the proverbial man on the
run. And he`s got to make a decision, Ed. Because very quickly law
enforcement is going to give him two choices. Surrender or die. And he`s
going to have to make up his mind which one is he going to do. Is he going
back to prison? I mean he`s doing life. He can`t do anymore time than
he`s doing already. But obviously he`d be doing it in solitary, or does he
want to go out.

You know, we realize in blaze of glory. We realize this is a guy who
killed deputy sheriff in Broome County X number of years ago. 13 years
ago. We know is a so-called cop killer. So would he do it again? Does he
want that mark on his head stone that perhaps he shot at another police
officer? They`ll give him a choice but I guarantee you, Jim Cavanaugh and
I -- some other guests, we`ve been in these searches. We`ve been in these
hunts and there is nobody of the 1,100 law enforcement officers out there
are going take a chance with this guy whatsoever. It`s either hands up or
feet first Ed. And that is the reality of a situation like this.

SCHULTZ: All right, Clint Van Zandt. Stay with us our continuing coverage
here on MSNBC.

I want to bring in now Pat Brown, Criminal Profiler. Pat, good to have you
with us tonight. Your thoughts on what David Sweat is going through right
now. And is it easier to predict what he`s going to do now that he`s on
his own?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I want to lead but (ph). It`s kind of funny
in a way. Because obviously they completely screwed this up. You know,
they had a plan and, you know, I thought -- you know, Joyce Mitchell just
might be lying she was going to pick them up at that manhole. And now I`m
thinking that was probably the only plan A and the only plan they had and
the woman did them in. And there they were running around in circles
because I think stayed (ph) got out of there. We had Matt on the board of
Mexico now may Sweat going the other way.

But they`ve had them running around in the bushes for heck of a long time
and that chase (ph) have been very much fun. So now, you know, they just
know the police are closing in obviously Matt`s dead. And Sweat has got to
be pretty much at this point at the end of his rope. Knowing he`s
probably, you know, he`s not going to get out of this. He just knows that.
And the question is, is just how much energy does he have to fight? Maybe
just going to say, you know, OK, fine I`m just tired if there`s any just
going to (inaudible) just put his hands up and walk right there or is he
like Clint just said is he going to have one last try some kind of, you
know, last moment in the sun and, you know -- it`s hard to predict that.
But I can say again with Clint the police aren`t (inaudible) whether
because quite frankly he`s worth shooting down. So there going to -- if he
makes any move they are going to do is that.

SCHULTZ: Pat, I want you to reiterate your thoughts on the escape plan
once they got out, what the plan was. You believe that Mitchell was
clearly a big part of this and once she didn`t show that they were really
winging it and had no plan B? That is your guess?

BROWN: I really do at this point. Now in the beginning because -- Matt
had a successful run before. Got all the way to Mexico and of course he
killed somebody down there and ended up in jail. So, obviously you are
dealing with a psychopaths they change their minds quickly and they are
erratic so, you know, really can`t predict. And they are not as smart as
people do think they are. A lot of times they are bullies and are willing
to do stuff the rest of us aren`t. But still, you know, you look at this
plan they had. It looked pretty good, you know. The way they manipulated
some people or would stop them to cooperate and planned this prison break.

You would think they have some kind of plan besides completely depending on
Mrs. Joyce Mitchell. Because they should have known she wasn`t necessarily
reliable. But maybe they didn`t have no other thought. Maybe they just
couldn`t contact anybody else. Maybe nobody else would help them over heck
(ph) with it. They hope the woman shows up. And she didn`t and there you
are, because now you don`t have any way to get out the area.

And, you know, you can survive a pretty long time in the summer. I mean, I
kind of laugh when people were saying, you know, how could they survive out
there? It summer it summer all you need is water. You can go for days and
days without food. You know, and you can walk around in circles. But the
problem is you are walking around in circles if you don`t have a real way
to get out of the location. Eventually somebody is going to close in on
you which is exactly what happened. So, obviously they had no plan B. It
was Joyce Mitchell. And that was foolish but maybe that is all they had.

SCHULTZ: Are you surprised they didn`t steal a car or get access to some
kind of vehicle to get out of the area?

BROWN: Yeah. You know, I mean, I don`t know the area. And this is one of
the problems when you try to do any commentary or profiling from this.
I`ve found often times doing work on cases. Now I thought one thing and
when I got to the actual location I looked around and well oh no wonder. I
don`t know how much access they had to anything out there.


BROWN: You know, first they are thinking the police are after them, they
looking for them. And they have lost their ride. And I don`t know what
they are seeing from the ground they are at. They may see that, you know.

SCHULTZ: All right.

BROWN: Maybe we have to go hide some place. Maybe they don`t know where
the roads are. Maybe they don`t know were they can assess. And I don`t
know how close anything was. If there was a close road and houses and
cars, I would be very surprised and, you know, if that`s true. Yeah, I
would be surprised. What would be the harm for them just to go up to a
house, break in, you know, grab their keys, grab a car. Take a hostage. I
mean, they`re killers. And, you know, it`s surprising that nobody has been
injured up until now and only think thing I can think is maybe it wasn`t
that easy to access. And I don`t know from being down here in Maryland
(ph). I don`t know what it looks like up there right around the prison.

SCHULTZ: OK. Criminal Profiler Pat Brown with us here on our continuing
coverage on MSNBC to bring you up to date. 48-year-old Richard Matt one of
the two convicted killers and escapees from the Clinton Correctional
Facility in New York State on the run for 21 days until today for Richard
Matt. It is confirmed he was shot and killed by law enforcement. David
Sweat, the man on the right of your screen, is still on the loose. There
is an intensive manhunt taking place right now in upstate New York. This
all unfolded around the Lake Titus area. We`ll have more on MSNBC, lots
more to cover as our continuing coverage continues here on MSNBC.

We`ll be right back.


SCHULTZ: Welcome back to MSNBC breaking coverage here on the Ed Show. And
we are joined tonight on the phone by MSNBC reporter Adam Reiss. We need
to report again that one of the two convicts has been shot and killed by
law enforcement. Adam, I understand you have more details on that
shooting. What unfolded? What can you tell us?

REISS: Ed, I just got off the phone with U.S. customs and border
protection. Under that heading is the border patrol. It is the border
patrol tactical unit that is the team that took Matt down. Now that unit
is another version of a SWAT team, they call it the boarder patrol tactical
unit. It`s there version of a SWAT team that carries side arms. They
carry side arms. They also carry M-4 rifles. They go in four man teams
and 16 man teams. We don`t know the details exactly how he was captured
and why and how he was killed but the unit that took him down were about 10
miles from the border is the border patrol tactical unit.

We spent some time at their headquarters in Swanton, Vermont. Their base
in Swanton, Vermont and they have numerous assets in the air, on the ground
and a lot of dogs. They use a lot of dogs. And I mentioned in the last
hour they have cameras all along the border on trees. They are sensitive
and they react to any movement and they snap a picture. Those pictures are
fed back to their headquarters in Swanton. We don`t know -- that system is
called BuckEye. We don`t know if that was the system that led them to
Matt. But again, it was their tactical unit that brought him down. Their
version of a SWAT team, Ed.

SCHULTZ: OK. So, U.S. customs border patrol tactical unit is the group
that engaged Richard Matt. There was a shootout. The 48-year-old convict
is confirmed dead. And these cameras that you`re talking about Adam are
very basic cameras that a lot of sportsmen use when they go deer hunting.
And they will set them up and they`ll put them up and look at the bait and
see when the game comes in from time to time. And I`m sure that`s what
you`re talking about, isn`t it?

REISS: Yeah, exactly. They have sensors on them and they are activated,
if there`s any there`s any movement. And actually you take a picture. And
when we were in there headquarters we actually saw some of those pictures
and it look -- one of the pictures two men running. So, they are very
accurate, very sensitive. And again we don`t know if that was how they
picked up Richard Matt. But it was their unit. And I can tell you
speaking to one of their members, they are very proud men tonight taking
the credit for bringing down Richard Matt.

SCHULTZ: All right. Also Adam, stay with us. The New York Times is
reporting there`s been a second round of gunfire. Can you tell us anything
about that?

REISS: I don`t know anything about that. But I can tell you the location
again -- that`s Elephant`s Head, which is just south of Lake Titus. I
don`t know where this second round of gunfire was. But this is all in the
area near Malone where authorities did locate a second spotting of DNA in a
second location. And that was reported to us today. I don`t know about
the second situation of gunfire. But it is quite possible they are on to
David Sweat. But, I don`t know.

SCHULTZ: All right. I also want to point out that the cameras that you
are talking about that are set up on trails that would record game or
anything that moves. They are light sensitive. They are also, many of
those cameras have documentation on exactly when it happened. They are
also time sensitive. To this would be very helpful to law enforcement in
the search.

REISS: Right absolutely. And as I mentioned a little earlier, you can be
guaranteed that they are swarming this area. Now they know where Matt is
and was. They`re probably guessing that Sweat is not too far behind. If
he went south or if he went north closer to the border, they`re just
swarming that area. They`ve got numerous agencies working on this. All
kinds of assets, bringing to bear in the air on the ground, military
assets. So they are probably a lot of excitement among law enforcement
that they got one of them. They want to get the second one.

SCHULTZ: All right, MSNBC reporter Adam Reiss who has been covering this
from the start with some vital information tonight. U.S. customs border
patrol tactical unit is the unit that engaged Richard Matt, who has now
been shot and killed. For more let`s go now to Clint Van Zandt, MSNBC
contributor and former FBI profiler. Clint, what can you tell us about the
U.S. customs border patrol tactical unit? I have to say I did not know
that U.S. customs had a tactical unit that did this kind of work. Your

ZANDT: Yeah. Well, again, you know, obviously they do and they train with
all the other agencies and this is kind of their forte too, Ed. Anything
along a border, this is something they train for. As we know they have
issues along the U.S.-Mexican border they deal with all the time. And even
though we don`t have people necessarily running across from Canada into the
U.S. We know that we`ve had fugitives cross back and forth across. We`ve
had terrorists come back and forth across that border. And I guarantee you
because they are so close right now, Ed. They are only about 10 miles away
from the Canadian border. We have long sensed this 4:30, 4:10 shooting
that took place this afternoon.

Canadian authorities have flooded that area on their side of the border
too. I mean, they are standing there waiting to see if this guy had got
any way whatsoever to try to work his way across. So the state police put
out information yesterday suggesting their belief that the two fugitives
were likely trying to flee north up into Canada. If in fact Sweat
continues this path, if the information was correct and they were going
that way, he`s in a panic now. He`s running. He is relying on just
adrenaline. And the adrenaline very well might drive him to keep going the
same direction he was going.

So between the Canadian authorities north of the border, the U.S. authority
south of the border and as your correspondent says, the 1,200 U.S. law
enforcement officers that are flooding that area right now, our hope is
that he can`t be too far ahead of us.

SCHULTZ: OK. Clint Van Zandt, stay with us. We`re following the Breaking
News out of Upstate, New York. And of course U.S. customs border patrol
tactical unit has been credited with the kill of Richard Matt. 48-year-old
man on the left of the screen. And of course David Sweat still on the
loose. New York Times reporting there was a second round of gunfire. So
that is the latest and newest information that we have and we`ll continue
coverage here on MSNBC, stay with us.


SCHULTZ: We are back on MSNBC with breaking coverage. The two convicts
that have been on the run for 21 days, one of them has been shot and killed
by law enforcement. 48-year-old Richard Matt is dead. David Sweat, the
other convict, is on the loose. There is an intensive manhunt taking place
at this hour.

Let`s go back to NBC`s John Yang who joining me now on the phone from Owls
Head, New York. John, what can you tell us?

YANG: Well, actually Ed, I`m in Malone at the state police barracks. We
are anticipating a briefing. They are really flooding this zone where they
encountered Richard Matt. All sorts of activity. All sorts of state
police. Their customs and border patrol car I saw go by me. New York
State forestry service officers also involved in this. The assumption is
that David Sweat is not far behind. They have said all along they had no
evidence that these two men had split up. That they were working on the
assumption that they were together. So that now that they have gotten
Richard Matt. They had shot him, killed Richard Matt, they believe David
Sweat is in this area. They are really closing down on this area. This is
the closest they have come.

You know, whoever is got Richard Matt in their cross-hairs is the first guy
to make a confirmed sighting of Richard Matt since he was last seen in his
last check in the prison three weeks ago tonight. So this was the first
time that they got them. They are not hot on the trail of David Sweat.
And I`m optimism that they -- having gotten Richard Matt but they`re going
to David Sweat tonight.

SCHULTZ: All right, John Yang, NBC reporting at Malone, New York. And we
well keep following the Breaking News out of Upstate New York.

We`ll have more right after this break. Stay with us.


SCHULTZ: Back on the Ed Show on MSNBC. We`re covering Breaking News as
one of two of the escaped convicts has been shot and killed by law

Let`s go back to Clint Van Zandt who has some information on that shooting.
Clint, what can you tell us tonight?

ZANDT: Yeah, Ed, a couple of things. Number one, I think the reason the
state police suggested these individuals were armed, and as you had talk to
one of your correspondents about trail cameras, evidently state police had
a trail camera of the two fugitives earlier this week in which Matt was in
fact holding a shotgun. That allowed them to suggest that they were armed
and dangerous. And the shooting of Matt today by at least one person that
I`m getting information from suggests that at least Matt, if not Matt and
Sweat, attempted to hijack a vehicle in the vicinity of Malone.

When the driver eluded them they shot -- or Matt shot at the driver. That
driver was able to get away, called the police, state police and border
patrol swarmed into that area and then a shootout took place between Matt
and the authorities that resulted in his dead. That`s the early
information that I have right now, Ed

SCHULTZ: So, there is a very brave and a very lucky citizen out there
tonight who was shot at, reportedly, by Richard Matt, and that of course,
then he went and told law enforcement where this guy is and they closed in
on him. I mean, that`s quite the drama, isn`t it, Clint? That`s really
unusual how these things unfold, isn`t it?

ZANDT: Yeah, if this is true, as the information is coming in and realize,
you know, you and I have to take the first information and then we have to
source it multiple times. But if in fact this is true, this is something,
Ed, we`ve talked about the last three weeks. Why haven`t these guys
attempted to hijack a vehicle, why haven`t they stolen a car? Well, I
think this speaks to the degree of desperation that they have right now and
that should this be true they were willing to expose themselves. They were
willing to step out and try to steal a vehicle. They were willing to shoot
at the driver they were so upset or in such a desire to stop that driver
and, as you say, if this story is true as it`s coming out right now, this
guy was extremely lucky, number one, to elude these two, and number two, it
didn`t take law enforcement long in that area.

Once they get a report like that, you send everybody in that area crashing
into that area. That confrontation took place with Matt. A gunfight took
place between the authorities and Matt. He was shot and killed, but this
information that I have also suggests the belief that Sweat was in that
immediate area if not actually with Matt at the time this shooting took
place. If that, too, is true, Ed, that means that he`s only, best case
scenario, a few hundred feet, maybe a mile one way or the other away at
this particular time.

So what we`re going to see, Ed, is this ring that`s going to close in that
area. You`re going to see law enforcement right at the site of the
shooting that are going to be pushing out. And then there`s going to be a
ring of law enforcement officers on the outside closing in and they`re
going to try to get the last fugitive, Sweat, boxed in between them. And
again, that makes him probably the most dangerous man in America on the run
right now because he fully realizes what`s going on. He realized that he`s
only a foot away perhaps from being grabbed by law enforcement.

SCHULTZ: And Clint, we`ve got about 3 1/2 hours of light left before
darkness tonight. Does the -- does the intensity change for law
enforcement? Does it speed up their movement? What changes, if anything,
in this search?

ZANDT: They would like to be able to find him, obviously, in daylight. As
you and I discussed, law enforcement rules the night with night vision
glasses for those underground and aircraft overhead. Ed, they`re also, I`m
sure, bringing in dogs that would have the scent of Sweat, and they would
be using those dogs. So they`re coming at him a lot of different
directions, but I think anybody in law enforcement would tell you we`d
rather find him in the daylight than we would be looking for him at night.

But again, if they think he`s in that area, right now they have to press
the hunt. This is as close as they believe they`ve been to these guys in
three weeks. They don`t want to lose the ability to find him now.

SCHULTZ: OK. Clint Van Zandt. Thanks so much. We`ll have more on this
Breaking News event out of Upstate New York right after this on MSNBC


SCHULTZ: And we`re back on the Ed Show on MSNBC with Breaks News. One of
the two escaped convicts has been shot and killed by law enforcement.

Let`s go now to NBC`s John Yang in Malone, New York. John? I guess we
don`t have John Yang. We`re setting up the camera there. I`m joined again
-- I`m joined -- let`s go now to MSNBC reporter Adam Reiss. You reported
that U.S. Customs and border control tactical unit was accredited for the
kill of 48-year-old escaped convict Richard Matt. Can you tell us more?

REISS: Sure, we`re getting more details from WNBC`s Jonathan Dienst who is
reporting that tactical unit heard shots about -- this happened about
little over two hours ago, around 3:45. They heard shots around route 30.
They went to that area, and apparently Richard Matt may have raised the
shotgun that Clint Van Zandt was talking little earlier that they had known
that he had. And he may have pointed it at the officials and they
responded with gunfire.

Again that border patrol tactical unit around 3:45 this afternoon along
route 30 heard shots. They responded, confronted Richard Matt and
apparently he may have raised a gun at them and pointed it at them and they
responded with gunfire.

Now, they are in hot pursuit. Of course, they want to put an end to this
and find David Sweat.

SCHULTZ: OK. Tell us about route 30. Is that like a two-way -- two-lane
highway, a road through the woods there in Upstate New York? What do you
know about it?

REISS: I`m actually not familiar with route 30, but I can tell you
generally in the area there are two-lane roads. But it`s just open country
coming out of the mountains. The pictures that you`re looking at,
everywhere around you are mountains, woods, 6 million acres of this type of
terrain in the Adirondack Mountains.

So, whether or not he was coming in from the woods or headed towards the
woods, there was some kind of gunfire. This might have been what Clint Van
Zandt was talking about before, the confrontation with the driver. He
responded, and that`s what they heard. They went to the area and
confronted him.

SCHULTZ: OK. Adam Reiss, great reporting. Thanks for your time tonight.

And that is the Ed Show." I`m Ed Schultz.

Our continuing coverage here on MSNBC is now picked up by anchor Chris
Hayes. Good evening Chris.


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