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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, June 29th, 2015

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Date: June 29, 2015
Guest: Patricia Todd, Matt Welch, Tamika Lewis, Todd Rutherford, Michael
Steele, Jess McIntosh, Sam Seder


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: The Supreme Court re-wrote the Constitution
and threw out the marriage laws of all 50 states.

HAYES: The Supreme Court backlash hits the campaign trail, as the
movement to block marriage equality spreads across the South.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there such a thing as morality anymore?

HAYES: Plus, breaking news on South Carolina`s push to take down the
Confederate flag. The inside story of the woman who took matters into her
own hands.


HAYES: And the pro-Confederate flag rally in Georgia that ended up in
a multicar pile-up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re about to wreck.

HAYES: And as NBC ends its relationship with Donald Trump --

much different than the people at NBC.

HAYES: -- why the Republican Party`s troubles may just be starting.

TRUMP: Now, with my statements on immigration, which happen to be
correct, they are going to take a different stance, and that`s OK.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Officials in at least three Southern states have now taken steps to
defy the U.S. Supreme Court`s landmark ruling Friday striking down same-sex
marriage bans across the country, as social conservatives warn, the high
court has literally put America on a path to hell.

In Alabama, Chief Justice Roy Moore, best known for his refusal to
remove a Ten Commandments monument from the Supreme Court building said
that under a new Supreme Court order, Alabama judges are not required to
issue same-sex marriage licenses for 25 days, while parties contest the
Supreme Court ruling.

The Alabama Supreme Court order was confusing for some probate judges
who could still face sanctions if they refuse to issue licenses to same-sex

Speaking in a church yesterday, Moore said he could not accept
Friday`s ruling as correct.


ROY MOORE, ALABAMA CHIEF JUSTICE: Is there such a thing as morality
anymore? For centuries, it was declared to be against the laws of nature
and nature`s god.


HAYES: In Texas, Republican attorney general Ken Paxton deemed the
Supreme Court ruling lawless and said that state workers can cite their
religious objections in denying marriage licenses to same sex couples.

And in Kentucky, as in Alabama, some county clerks are refusing to
issue marriage licenses to any couple to protest the ruling.

There were some encouraging news today after a three-day hold out,
Louisiana and Mississippi officials began issuing marriage licenses to
same-sex couples, including this couple from New Orleans who have been
together for nearly 14 years.

But if anything, the rhetoric from opponents of the decision has only
gotten more vitriolic since Friday`s decision. Arkansas Pastor Tim Brooks
today warned that gays are demanding that Christians, quote, "come out and
have sex with us", while conservative radio host Brian Fisher said the high
court had put our souls in jeopardy.


BRIAN FISHER, RADIO HOST: On Friday, the Supreme Court made it easier
for people to go to hell.


HAYES: Joining me now, Alabama State Representative Patricia Todd,
Alabama`s first and only openly gay elected official.

Representative, your reaction to what Roy Moore appears to be
attempting to do in your state in terms of holding back this decision?

STATE REP. PATRICIA TODD (D), ALABAMA: Well, he`s on the wrong side
of history again. And it is very frustrating for those of us who, you
know, are law-abiding citizens to watch the chief justice of our Supreme
Court deny a federal Supreme Court decision that was very clear. But you
know, I think he wants to be a pastor. I think he needs to leave his
current position as a justice and start pastoring a church.

HAYES: There was some talk in the run-up to this decision, whether we
would see something like what we saw particularly in the south in the wake
of Brown v. Board, which was called massive resistance. That is outright
thumbing of the nose of the local officials at the Supreme Court, basically
saying you`re going to have come in and enforce it, and we all remember the
images of National Guard deployed, et cetera.

We`re not really seeing that. What is the temperature like down in

TODD: Well, I think a lot of people are confused. Probate judges,
many of them have been issuing licenses and they will continue to do so
since Friday without any hesitation, without any problem, but we have some
who are looking for an excuse.

And my response to them is, if you can`t do your job, then we`ll get
somebody who can. And in your next election, this is going to be an issue.

There`s a lot of young people who support this decision, the majority
of the people in this country do, and it`s time to get over it. Let`s move
on to solving the critical issues in Alabama that can help move the state

HAYES: Do you think that`s the direction that the voters of Alabama
are going, getting over it, or do you think this is going to play out,
continue to play out as a live political issue in the elections to come?

TODD: Well, I think it will be a live political issue, but our
polling shows it`s always increasing, never decreasing. It`s always
increasing. As this decision had been on Friday, more people came out to
their families, have decided to get married.

You know, unlike other social movements, we`re everywhere. We work
with you. We`re in your family. We teach your children. We`re your co-

So I think that that will help us increase the numbers, but it`s a
matter of time. The people over 40, you know, are another generation that,
you know, don`t get this, and as a younger generation take power, I think
this will become a nonissue. I think it will become a nonissue in the next
couple years. We`ll look back and go on this, really? What was the big

HAYES: I got to ask, as an openly gay woman in Alabama, as the only
openly gay member of the state legislature, what does this decision, what
does Friday mean to you?

TODD: It was emotionally overwhelming. I mean, I felt very confident
the Supreme Court was going to rule in our favor, very strongly, and they

But it was bittersweet. You know, I have been fighting for this for
20 years. I never thought I`d see it in my lifetime. Watching Alabama
struggle with this is painful for me.

Hearing the name calling -- we had an incident in Alabama this weekend
where a guy with an HRC sticker on his car was chased by another guy in a
car and they pointed a gun at him.

We`re always concerned about potential violence and hate speech when
this happens, but we`ve got to stay strong. And we`re moving forward. And
the country`s moving forward, and these people are going to be left behind.
The probate judges -- they`re losing money for their county. Because if
they`re not going to issue any marriage licenses. Somebody is going to go
to the next county to get it. They`re going to lose revenue.

Don`t come to me as a legislator and say, guys, I need more money for
my court system, I had to lay off a bailiff -- when you won`t provide a
basic service that`s your job.

HAYES: State Representative Patricia Todd who sounds fairly confident
this will be resolved in the right way down in Alabama. Thanks for joining
us tonight, Representative.

TODD: Thank you.

HAYES: Behind the scenes, many Republican strategists have been
quietly celebrating Friday`s ruling as a chance for the GOP to leave the
increasingly damaging issue of gay rights behind.

But in public, many of the GOP presidential candidates with their eye
on socially conservative primary voters have been trying to one up each
other with condemnations to the decision.

Ted Cruz suggested same-sex marriage and Obamacare rulings made for a
24-hour period that was, quote, "among the darkest hours of our nation."
In an NPR interview today, Cruz called on states to ignore the Supreme
Court`s ruling.

While Scott Walker railed against what he called a redefinition of
marriage and demanded a constitutional amendment to allow states to define
marriage themselves.

Rick Santorum said the president should redirect his global warming
push to focus on marriage instead and raised the prospect of state
sanctioned polygamy.

While Bobby Jindal offered a dire warning of a, quote, "all out
assault" against religious freedom right of Christians.

Perhaps no candidate went further than Mike Huckabee who said he
would, quote, "not acquiesce to an imperial court any more than our
founders acquiesced to an imperial British monarch", who chose to defend
his call to defy the court ruling by pointing to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you calling for civil disobedience?

pastors and Christian schools are going to have a choice. They`re going to
either follow God, their conscience, and what they truly believe is what
the scripture teaches them, or they will follow civil law. They will go
the path of Dr. Martin Luther King who in his brilliant essay, "The Letters
from a Birmingham Jail", reminded us based on what St. Augustine said, that
an unjust law is no law at all.


HAYES: Just one letter. Not letters.

Then there was Donald Trump whose advocacy for so-called traditional
marriage was the subject of a pretty amazing exchange.


JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: What do you say to a lesbian who is married or
a gay man who is married who says, Donald Trump, what`s traditional about
being married three times?

TRUMP: Well, they have a good point. You know, I have been a very
hard working person. I have had actually have a great marriage, a great
wife now, and my two wives were very good. And I don`t blame them, but I
was working maybe like you, 22 hours a day.

TAPPER: I`m not asking you to explain your divorces.

TRUMP: I know, but I blame myself because my business was so powerful
for me. I don`t know if that`s a good thing or a bad thing.

TAPPER: But what do you say to a lesbian or a gay man who are married
and say --

TRUMP: I really don`t say anything.


TRUMP: I`m just -- Jake, I`m for traditional marriage.


HAYES: Joining me now, Matt Welch, editor in chief of "Reason"

Well, I think the first 72 hours after this have been pretty
interesting. Do you subscribe to this notion that sort of behind closed
doors, the GOP strategic class is basically a sigh of relief, whereas GOP
primary voters and some of the actual politicians themselves are genuinely
upset about the --

MATT WELCH, REASON: Yes, and the people who work for GOP campaigns
who by and large are the people who live in Washington, D.C., which is a
super duper gay town, by the way.


WELCH: They tend to be more sort of libertarian, and more open about
this stuff.

However, I think -- I mean, the big question I think the broad one is,
is this going to be another Roe v. Wade backlash kind of thing? I don`t
think it`s going to be. But it`s clear, just because a majority of
Republicans under 50 are in favor of gay marriage. It`s over. That`s not
going to go in their direction.

But Ted Cruz is going to make a big stink out of it, as are all the
people vying for the social conservative vote.

HAYES: Right. And also, what`s key to understand I think here about
the politics is that time matters, right? So, I`m one of those people
who`s always thought given enough time, the Affordable Care Act will be
popular, will be very difficult to repeal, but I may be right, I may be
wrong, but there`s a big difference between whether it`s popular 18 months
after it passed or six years. And that matters for the elections that
happen in between.

That strikes me as the issue here. You can say, OK, projecting out 16
years from now, this is not going to be a big issue, but there`s an
election very, very soon --

WELCH: True.

HAYES: -- and there is political hay to be made among the GOP base,
who genuinely have these beliefs. It`s not made up. It`s not invented.
They believe this.

WELCH: In the primary election, there`s hay to be made. But this is
a context of Republicans in a very favorable climate, even when they`re
winning elections on the gubernatorial level or retaking Congress, they`re
still losing market share, right?

They`re still -- people don`t want to register, they don`t want to
identify, and if you talk to young people, millennials who are probably not
necessarily fiscally super lefties. They`re not a bunch of Elizabeth
Warrenites out there, but they won`t consider being a Republican because of
Republican traditional views towards especially gay marriage and also
immigration. If you`re perceived to be intolerant, forget it. You can`t
even join --

HAYES: It`s a threshold issue. It was the same thing we saw on
immigration 2012, right? That before you get a hearing, right, you have to
show yourself to not be a jerk, essentially, about some key issues.

WELCH: So what Ted Cruz is doing is, I don`t care about that right

HAYES: Right, that`s right. That`s exactly right.

WELCH: I want to win this primary right now. He`s going to force the
issue because that`s what Ted Cruz does. He wakes up in the China shop and
he wants to be the bull, no matter what. And so, he is going to try to
force the issue against the Jeb bushes and Marco Rubios who are saying, OK,
I personally don`t really believe in this type of marriage, but the Supreme
Court has ruled. Let`s kind of move on, which is the note they`re

It is interesting that Scott Walker is going in the Ted Cruz

HAYES: Very.

WELCH: And I --

HAYES: And that strikes me as significant, because --

WELCH: Some kind of bellwether there.


WELCH: And it`s just disappointing on a real kind of human level, but
none of the candidates, not even Rand Paul, has been able just to say, hey,
look, even if I disagree with this ruling, a lot of people in America had a
really good day.

HAYES: Right.

WELCH: You know, I -- congratulations, it`s kind of a beautiful thing
to have a ceiling lifted on your imagination here, even if we respectfully
disagree, that no one could sound that note and no one could say, you know
what, I don`t think that the government should discriminate against, if
it`s going to be in this business, that it should discriminate against a
class of people.

Justin Amash, a libertarian congressman, he said that, but few
Republicans. It`s just not a hard place to get to. They put themselves
for 15 years in this bind, and they`re suffering from it.

HAYES: Yes, and the dynamic, the cultural disconnect I think between
say your median Iowa primary, Iowa caucus voter and your median sort of GOP
strategist who lives in northern Virginia, is really fascinating to me on
this issue, right? Because they`re in pretty different worlds,
particularly on this issue, I don`t think on other ones. There`s a sense
in which if you`re a social conservative, you can feel a little like you`re
being had.

WELCH: A little?

HAYES: Like there is a sense of, like, are these folks really
representing our interests, really fighting for us? Is this saying we`re
the rubes who show up and deliver the votes?

WELCH: I`m seeing a lot of reaction that we`re the rubes, we have
been played for all this time. And that`s what Ted Cruz is trying to play
into. He`s saying, no one is really going to fight for you on this, I am
going to fight for you.

But I would also say that the social conservatives I know, and that`s
self-selecting elite conservatives probably, but they`re more licking their
wounds. It`s not like I`m going to get my new campaign. This is going to
define my life going forward.

There are only a few people who are dead-enders on that level. Most
people are licking their wounds, thinking about religious freedom issues,
and these other kinds of things. I don`t think it will be a burning light

HAYES: The GOP is lucky in that respect.

Matt Welch, thank you. Always a pleasure.

WELCH: Thanks.

HAYES: Still ahead, Donald Trump loses his "Apprentice" position.
Justice Scalia cooks up his own pure applesauce. And a pro-Confederate
flag rally ends with a bang.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They`re about to wreck. Boom! Boom! Oh, I got
that. Oh, I got all that. I just said they`re going to wreck.



HAYES: There was a parade to celebrate the confederate flag in
Dalton, Georgia, this weekend. And here is what happened.


(EXPLETIVE DELETED) is this? And they got the roads blocked off. Look.
You all don`t think I`m (EXPLETIVE DELETED). There go the police right
now. Got the road blocked off for these (EXPLETIVE DELETED) Confederate

I don`t know what the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) is going on.

Oh, they`re about to wreck. Boom! Boom! Oh, I got that! Oh, I got
all that! I just said they`re going to wreck. I just said they`re going
to wreck. I just said that.

Damn! Damn! God don`t like ugly. God do not like ugly.


HAYES: That scene minus the wreck, played out in other cities across
the South this weekend, including in South Carolina, which is also where
this happened. An activist scaled a flag pole and removed the confederate
flag that flies on the grounds of South Carolina`s state house. One of the
people who helped her joins me next.


HAYES: Just hours after dawn on Saturday, hours after the Reverend
Clementa Pinckney was laid to rest in Charleston, two people armed with
climbing gear arrived at the base of the Confederate battle flag that flies
on the grounds of the South Carolina state grounds.

After the murders of Reverend Pinckney and nine others by a white
supremacist who posed -- I`m sorry, eight others, by a white supremacist
who posed in photos with the flag, lawmakers from around South Carolina
have called it for it to be removed from outside the capital. But a week
and a half after the massacre, bogged down in legislative procedure, the
battle flag was still there.

So, a 30-year-old Bree Newsome and her collaborator James Tyson took
matters into their own hands with a daring act of civil disobedience. As
dawn broke over the capital, Newsome scaled the flag pole with what
appeared to be tree climbing gear. As she reached the top, she unhooked
the Confederate emblem, and after a triumphant wave, brought it back down
with her. Police were waiting at the bottom, and Newsome reciting
Scriptures throughout her climb seemed prepared for the consequences.


BREE NEWSOME, ACTIVIST: The Lord is my light and my salvation, whom
shall I fear? The Lord is the stronghold in my life; of whom shall I be
afraid? I`m going to comply. I promised you. I`m coming down. I`m
prepared to be arrested.


HAYES: Newsome and Tyson were both arrested and charged with defacing
a public monument, which carries a fine up to $5,000 and up to three years
behind bars.

Both were released on $3,000 bond later on Saturday. Less than three
hours after the flag came down, a worker put it back in place.

And that afternoon around 50 people showed up to stage a kind of
counter-protest to support the flag. That wasn`t the only one of its kind
this weekend. Confederate flag supporters near Tampa, Florida, held a so-
called drive for pride Friday night, ending up at Hillsborough County
courthouse, and in Dalton, Georgia, police actually shut down the streets
for the parade of trucks. They didn`t quite manage to figure out the whole
traffic situation.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, they`re about to wreck. Boom! Boom! Oh, I
got that. I got all that. I just said it, they`re going wreck.


HAYES: Can you tell we like playing the video?

Joining me, Tamika Lewis, a member of the activist group The Tribe,
who helped organize and was present at Bree Newsome`s actions on Saturday,
and State Rep Todd Rutherford, the South Carolina House minority, who`s now
representing Newsome as her attorney.

Tamika, let me begin with you. What was it like there early that
morning, doing that action? Were you guys -- were you guys scared?

TAMIKA LEWIS, ACTIVIST, THE TRIBE: It was a mix of emotions. It was,
we hope this goes through. Like sending all power and love to Bree while
she scaffold the pole. Just hoping the state police didn`t shoot her down
or something catastrophic happen.

It was also beautiful, almost brought me to tears seeing the flag come
off and Bree hold it above her head. As activists, people who believe in
humanity, it`s just one of the beautiful feelings of liberation and

HAYES: Tamika, what do you say to people who say I support you, that
flag should come down, but there`s a process for it and they`re debating it
in the Statehouse, and they`re going to have their vote, and you know,
don`t take the law into your own hands?

LEWIS: So, two things. One, we can`t continue to wait for our
judicial system as minority people and oppressed people in this country to
do what`s right for the minority people when they have shown us in the
past, in our recent past that they don`t really have our best interests at

Secondly, we the people have the power to make our own decisions. We
are the ones who should be governing this country. The legislators and
people in those houses should reflect what we want and not the other way

HAYES: Let me ask a member of that legislature, Mr. Rutherford, I
understand there`s some news, the "A.P." alerted that it looks like on this
contentious matter of taking the flag down, that it looks -- it appears now
that the votes are there in both the House and the Senate to take it down.
Is that what you`re hearing as well?

hearing. "The Post and Courier", which is a Charleston newspaper, they`ve
been doing a poll and polling the Senate and the House, and it looks like
in both bodies we have the two thirds necessary to vote to take it down.
In the Senate, it may actually go without going to a committee or
subcommittee and go straight to the floor, which means the House may get
this bill as early as July 6th.

HAYES: Are you surprised by that? Was this what you were
anticipating when the governor made the announcement that she made?

RUTHERFORD: Yes, it`s surprising how quickly this all happened. As I
believe you have commented before, it seems to be happening with light
speed. I`m not surprised that there`s a vote -- the vote is necessarily to
take it down. I am surprised we reached two thirds and Republican members
are willing to speak out on this and say well in advance of the vote where
they stand, that they are willing to take a newspaper and comment in the
newspaper that it`s time for the flag to come down.

But as a commentator in the Dalton, Georgia, segment said, God don`t
like ugly, and this flag needs to come down. I`m here to make sure that it

HAYES: Representative, as the attorney for Bree Newsome, do you think
she will be facing a stiff penalty? Do you anticipate a judicial system
that seeks to make an example of her?

RUTHERFORD: Well, I know that right now, she`s charged with defacing
a public monument, which carries three years and a $5,000 fine.

But you know, the most disturbing thing that happened was right after
the flag came down, two African-American workers for the budget and control
board for the state of South Carolina, then had to put the Confederate flag
back up. Talk about a hostile work environment. The African-American cops
that were forced to arrest her when she was in possession of the
Confederate flag. Talk about a hostile work environment.

The state of South Carolina has no business flying the flag of hate.
Today, right now at this hour as I sit hire, a block down the street, what
you have is the front of the South Carolina state house blocked off by
police officers because of a skirmish that happened not more than 30
minutes ago.

The state of South Carolina has no business in hate. They have no
business flying that flag. It needs to come down. And by the way, the KKK
has said they`re going to organize a rally at the state house. They have
been issued a permit.

But again, I`m here to make sure that that rally is going to happen
with the absence of the Confederate flag.

HAYES: Tamika, the KKK announcing they`re going to have a rally for
there flag July 18th, I believe it is, on the capital grounds. In some
ways that seems fitting giving the debate we`re having about the flag.
Your reaction to that.

LEWIS: I mean, it`s not shocking. What`s happening here is more than
a flag. So, when we organize and thought about taking down the flag, it
wasn`t just about removing that flag from that premise because there`s
hundreds around, there`s hundreds around that our government actually

It`s about showing people and giving people the power, regular beings,
organizations, activists, mothers, teachers, the power to feel they have
the opportunity to get up and actually act.

White supremacists are going to support their power. They`re going to
maintain what they want to hold on to. They don`t want minority people to
be able to come up above them and tell them what they can and can`t do.
That`s not the way of the land, that`s not what they know, that`s not in
their history, you know?

That flag represents their power, they continuous power. So, if we
remove that, we don`t have to replace it with anything else, but we also
start dismantling the very foundation they built and are sitting on

HAYES: Tamika Lewis and State Representative Todd Rutherford -- thank
you both for joining us here, really appreciate it.

RUTHERFORD: Thank you for having us.

LEWIS: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Still ahead, the possibility that this is a
watershed moment for Republican presidential contenders and the Confederate

Plus, the comments that cost a 2016 hopeful one of his day jobs and
could end up costing his party more.


TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they`re not sending their best.
They`re bringing drugs. They`re bringing crime, they`re rapists, and some,
I assume, are good people.



HAYES: The FBI and the ATF are now investigating a string of at least
five fires at predominantly black churches in the south, all of them
occurring since the white supremacist attack on a historic black church in
Charleston nearly two weeks ago. Three of the fires in Knoxville,
Tennessee, Macon, Georgia, and Charlotte, North Carolina are being
investigated as arson.

Investigators have yet to establish a cause for the other fires.

At this point, we have many more questions than answers and joining me
to fill in some of what we know, MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid, who
has been investigating the story.

All right, this has been something I`d have seen sort of on social
media in
the last five or six days. And you start to feel that feeling of like in
the movie when they start putting the pins in the map of the serial killer,
like what`s going on here?

But also, the south is big. There are tons of churches, and fires
happen a lot. So what do we know right now?

JOY REID, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, who is burning black churches is
now a hashtag that is all over the place and trending and people are
putting these together in their minds because of the time proximity.

So, you have the attack on the South Carolina church on the 17th of

HAYES: Charleston, yeah, right.

REID: In Charleston.

Then on the 21st of June, you have the first of these church fires
that takes place in Knoxville, Tennessee. And that is one of the three
that`s being investigated as an arson.

Then, two days later, you have a second fire, this one in Macon,
Georgia, in which I believe $250,000 of damage has been done. The church
is almost completely totaled.

Then, the next day, you have yet another fire, this one is in
Charlotte, North Carolina, that takes place.

Two days after that, on the 26th, you then have a fourth fire at a
church in Warrenville, South Carolina, and then shortly thereafter there
are two more: one in Gibson City, Tennessee, and one in Tallahassee.

Now, here`s the caveat when you (inaudible). I did email with the FBI
spokesman today. Right now, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms
is investigating each of these individually. They don`t have anything
right now to tie them together other than the obvious proximity, they`re
all in the south.

But if you go through and look, they`re different in terms of
denomination. The first church was a Seventh-Day Adventist Church that
burned. The second church is a Church of Christ church, then you have a
Baptist church and another Baptist church. So, denominationally, they`re
not similar. The churches aren`t necessarily tied in any way that`s
obvious other than they have predominately black populations.

And of course, you have this history of particularly the Klan
throughout the south sending a message to black people with two things: the
Confederate flag being a very potent symbol of hate and stay away from
here, and the burning and bombing of black churches. So, it`s very potent
in the minds of a lot of people.

HAYES: And just to be clear, because I have seen lists of five or six
or seven, there are three that we have confirmed that are being
investigated as arson.

REID: Right. And a fourth that`s a potential arson, but they`re
still too
early in the investigation.

There are two of them, one of which is thought to potentially be a
strike fire, that`s the one in Tallahassee, and there`s one that may be
electrical issues with the church itself. So, those two right now are not
being investigated as arsons, but these are for sure, a fourth could become
an arson investigation depending on what they find..

HAYES: And obviously, we should also say there`s, you bow, in terms
of the steps of what we`re looking at here, the first threshold is were
these fires accidental. And some of them, they may be. Others are being
investigated arson.

Even if they are found to be arson, definitively, right, then there`s
the question of what is the motivation? And we can imagine there would be
a lot of
motivations that are not white supremacist terror essentially being waged
against these congregations.

Now presumably, that`s something the AFT and FBI are going to look

REID: They`re going to look at it. I don`t know if you recall not
long ago in Colorado, there was an NAACP incident where the building was
shared by the tax
office that turned out to be the actual target, so the federal

HAYES: And that`s a good cautionary tale, because when you hear
explosion, sort of unexploded improvised explosive device happened outside
the building of the NAACP and there was federal investigators worried about
this could be that, it proved to be a different target.

REID: Right. And federal authorities are very, very notoriously
cautious. And then we were just saying in the break, I was thinking of the
fire that is
still under investigation as a potential arson of Michael Brown, Sr.`s
church, and that took place in Ferguson, Missouri. And of course Missouri
is known to have at least four very large active Ku Klux Klan
organizations. We also know that South
Carolina has a pretty large Klan organization that is actually planning a
march as you reported earlier.

So, we know that there is plenty of hate activity. I spoke with
someone from the southern poverty law center. They are looking at it,
because there is tons of hate activity.

And by the way, groups don`t necessarily have to be actively colluding
physically, because you have so much online manifestations of sort of hate
behavior. And if you compare what they`re trying to do now with what they
used to do back in the 20s and `30s when these things would happen, back
then you could locate it almost all in the Klan. You had one organization
that metastasized across the south. Now you have these all little atomized
organizations: The Council of Conservative Citizens is here, you have
another white nationalist group there, so people like Dylann Roof can
actually organize themselves lone wolf style almost the way ISIS does using
social media or online.

So, it`s going to be really a complicated investigation to piece
together even if you figure out who all of the culprits are.

HAYES: All right, Joy Reid, thank you for that very illuminating.

Still ahead, another Republican hopeful looks to officially enter the
2016 race as Donald Trump appears to be caught unaware by the news that NBC
dropped him.


strong immigration stance, and I`m very strong on borders, and I`m very
strong on crime, that maybe I`ll lose NBC along the way, and if that
happened, that`s fine. I`ll just have to probably bring a lawsuit against


HAYES: Today on the final day of its term, the Supreme Court issues
several opinions. One of which blocked one of the most significant pieces
of clean air regulation from the EPA under the Obama administration.
Although the decision was
cheered by conservatives, which governors mercury and other toxic emissions
from coal and oil fired power plants was not actually struck down, but
because of the ruling, the EPA must rewrite it in light of today`s

Now, Justice Antonin Scalia, who has garnered must attention the last
few days for his fiery descents got to write the majority opinion on this

But a funny thing happened between his descent in the Affordable Care
Act case, and his majority opinion today. And it appears to be a complete
reversal in how he thinks judges should interpret the text of a law.

You remember on Thursday, Justice Scalia was horrified by the
majority`s interpretation of the Affordable Care Act. Words no longer have
meaning if an exchange that is not established by a state is established by
a state, he wrote in his descent.

Scalia was incensed with the way the majority looked at the context of
the disputed words in the entire law to reach its decision.

Let us not forget, however, why context matters. It is a tool for
understanding the terms of the law, not an excuse for rewriting them.
Scalia called it jiggery pokery and pure applesauce.

So Scalia, the proud textualist, the jurist who looks at the letter of
the law, had the opportunity to apply that principle to today`s decision.
And the question was whether the EPA must consider cost before it decides
to enact a new regulation.

The EPA may regulate power plants, and I`m quoting here, if the
administrator finds such regulation is appropriate and necessary after
considering the results of the study required by this sub-paragraph.

Now, I`m quoting the law at issue here.

And you`ll notice, if you read that carefully, look at it, it`s up on
the screen. There`s absolutely nothing in the text there about costs.

Now, there are other sections of the Clean Air Act that talk about
cost. And in fact, the EPA did consider cost in how it would implement the
new regulation.

Scalia said that wasn`t enough. Read naturally in the present
context, Scalia wrote, the phrase appropriate and necessary requires at
least some attention to cost.

Huh, so context matters to Scalia in interpreting the Clean Air Act,
but context befuddled and enraged him when the majority used it in
interpreting the Affordable Care Act.

It`s easy for a justice to hold on to a principle right up until the
principle requires an outcome that doesn`t really align with that justice`s
preferences. So maybe Scalia should shelve his whole insult comic schtick,
until he stops exhibiting the very same hypocrisy he finds so galling in
his colleagues.


HAYES: Summer is traditionally a quiet time for news. But this first
week of summer has been anything but.

When the Supreme Court`s historic rulings, the reverberations from the
massacre in Charleston, to the euro crisis unfolding in Greece, it`s been a
very busy time in the news cycle. So, tomorrow as I do every Tuesday, I`ll
be answering your questions, just head on over to, and ask me anything. Staring at noon, eastern
tomorrow, see you there.


HAYES: Some bad news if you`re a fan of the Donald Trump Apprentice
show on NBC. It appears to be no more.

Some worse news if you`re Reince Priebus and the rest of the
Republican Party. The daily Donald Trump for president show is still going
strong and it is all anyone can talk about.

News today from NBC, which announced it will cut its ties with Trump,
saying in a statement, due to the recent derogatory statements by Donald
Trump regarding immigrants, NBC Universal is ending its business
relationship with Mr. Trump.

That relationship also includes the Ms. USA and Ms. Universe pageants,
which are part of a joint venture between trump and NBC. NBC Universal is,
of course, the
parent company of MSNBC.

So, as of right now, it looks like Trump will not be returning to the
Celebrity Apprentice, although the show itself has not been canceled..

At first, Trump seemed to take the news in stride.


TRUMP: I think NBC, frankly, you know, I`ve had a great relationship
with them. But they didn`t want me to run because they wanted to do The

As you know, they renewed The Apprentice, but I just told them I
cannot do The Apprentice because of the fact that I`m running. And as long
as I`m running for president, they were not happy with it.

And now with my statements on immigration, which happen to be correct,
they are going to take a different stance, and that`s OK.

I think as far as ending the relationship, I have to do that, because
my view on immigration is much different than the people at NBC.


HAYES: A little later, however, Trump released a new statement that
said, quote, NBC is so weak and so foolish, and that, quote, Mr. Trump --
this is a statement that Trump released -- Mr. Trump stands by his
statements on illegal immigration, which are accurate.

In case you have forgotten, these are the statements he says are


TRUMP: When Mexico sends its people, they`re not sending their best.
They`re not sending you. They`re not sending you. They`re sending people
that have lots of problems, and they`re bringing those problems with us.
They`re bringing drugs, they`re bringing crime. Their rapists. And some,
I assume, are good people.


HAYES: At this point RNC chairman Reince Priebus who said on Friday
that Trump`s comments on immigrants were, quote, not helpful, was probably
hoping for
some news that will knock Donald Trump out of the headlines.

And he just might get it with Chris Christie planning to announce
tomorrow he is running for president.

We`re going to talk to someone who had Reince Priebus` job and ask him
his thoughts next.


HAYES: Joining me now, a man who thanks his lucky stars he no longer
has the job as RNC chairman. He is now an MSNBC political analyst.
Michael Steele.

Jess McIntosh, vice president of communications for EMILY`s List.

Sam Seder, host of the majority report and MSNBC contributor.

All three, of course, you will recognize as contestants in our 2017
fantasy draft.

Michael Steele is currently the leader with 500 points. And I will
come to you first, Michael.

OK, this I genuinely think this is a problem for the Republican Party
and for Reince Priebus, the Trump factor. He is a magnet for attention.
He is an expert troll. He is saying things that are genuinely offensive.
And at a certain point, like, what do you do about this if you`re Reince
Priebus? I`m serious.

nothing you can do.

A presidential campaign is separate and apart from the Republican
National Committee, as all campaigns are. You can sit down and say, look,
this is -- he said on Friday, not helpful, but by and large, these
candidates will run their campaign the way they want to. They will say, as
we saw in 2012, as we have seen in other presidential races, they seem to
take on a life of their own.

And the party is largely helpless to really deal with it. The only
thing you really do is have to answer for it because when these statements
are made, microphones are placed in front of every presidential candidate,
is placed in front of every party official, to respond to it.

And so then his message will be, just walk past it, ignore it, keep
going, just don`t respond.

HAYES: Sam, it strikes me that there is ground to be made if you`re a
Republican candidate to just go hard at Trump, particularly on the
immigration issue. I mean -- and this is why it`s such a nightmare for
Reince Priebus, for the GOP -- it`s like this is an issue that they did
horribly on in 2012, it`s an issue that is one of these threshold issues,
which if the substance of the policy, but then it`s also like is this party
filled with people who are bigoted against people like me? You don`t want
that to be the thing.

So like someone`s got to step out and say, no, this is not an OK thing
to say.

SAM SEDER, HOST, MAJORITY REPORT: The problem is, is that if they did
that, they wouldn`t be a Republican presidential contender.

I mean, look...

HAYES: Do you think that`s true?

SEDER: The problem that Trump has for the Republican Party is that he
actually articulates the subtext. And so the Republicans can say, like,
hey, it`s inappropriate for you to talk about the subtext of what our
policies are, but that`s about it.

So the only thing they can say, like, it`s really inappropriate for
you to describe the exact policy that I have in that manner.

And so this is the problem that they have with Trump, is that they can
go at him for being rude, but just Trump turns around and says, I`m just
telling it like
it is. Don`t you want to build a wall?

Yes, Mr. Trump, I do.

Well, I`m going to build a bigger wall. What`s your answer?

And that`s the end of the conversation.

JESS MCINTOSCH, EMILY`S LIST: Once you start defending the Mexican
immigrants as being not necessarily the worst of all humanity, then the
question becomes, why would be not want to help them earn some sort of
legal status?

SEDER: Right. It`s a slippery slope.

HAYES: Trump did say -- Trump did add very quickly some I assume are
good people. So that`s always the protection.

Yeah, Michael.

STEELE: No, I was going to say, the problem I have with Sam`s
argument is that that is not the subtext of the Republican Party. Jeb Bush
has a very clear
separate and distinct view from Donald Trump, as does Marco Rubio on this

SEDER: Policy wise, though, what`s the difference?

STEELE: Well, Marco Rubio and Donald Trump -- I mean, and Jeb Bush,
aren`t talking about building a wall and electrifying it and keeping people
out of the

SEDER: They`re not?

MCINTOSH: They haven`t talked about electrifying it.

SEDER: I mean, no, they haven`t said electrifying it.

HAYES: No, but wait a second. Wait a second. Wait a second.

STEELE: Look, this is the problem, everyone wants to put all these
guys in one little box and say that they`re all the same. They`re not.
And so you`re just not going to get away with those types of arguments that
sort of lump Donald Trump and everybody else together.

HAYES: But Michael, if that`s true, right, so let`s separate out two
things. There`s one, the question on the table resolved Mexico sending its
worst people who are criminals and into drugs and rapists, right, and
there`s what should we do about comprehensive immigration reform?

So, let`s even table the comprehensive immigration reform. Just the
thing that Donald Trump said, it just seems like the easiest thing in the
world for me, it would appear, for Jeb Bush or anyone to say, yeah that was
a terrible thing to say sand it`s not true and the vast majority of people
that come to this country from Mexico, whether legal or undocumented, are
probably great people trying to do the best for their families.

Like, it`s a very easy way to resolve this debate.

STEELE: Agreed.

But, OK, two things. One, it likely will get resolved on August 6th
in Cleveland, because I`m almost certain that that will be a question
that`s raised or one of the candidates will raise it.

And number two, why would you engage at this stage as you`re ramping
up your campaign to get into, you know, a fight with Donald Trump on
something that everyone in the country knows is just not correct?

So let it go. As I said before, let it go.

HAYES: Right.

STEELE: You`ll deal with it in time. There`s no need to engage when
you don`t have to.

MCINTOSH: I think the person who should have said it was Rand Paul.

I mean, he had -- Rand Paul had a whole week to come out and
differentiate himself as the Republican who was going to talk to African-
American voters, who
was going to talk to Latino voters, who could have said something
incredibly libertarian on gay marriage, and he was quiet all week.

I mean, I think Michael`s point that everybody is not in the same box
totally correct, but we know that the Republicans need to do dramatic
rebranding in order to appeal to younger voters, and none of these 15

HAYES: And I`m also curious, I`m very curious to see what happens on
August 6th. Because Rick Perry, remember what happened to Rick Perry?

SEDER: Well, listen, I get the fact, OK, that there`s going to be a
lot of
fear of Trump on August 6th because they`re looking at the polls in New

But I`m sorry, the idea that the Republican candidates on that stage
going to spend time arguing with Donald Trump that Mexicans don`t deserve
his insults towards them is just beyond the pale.

I mean, I can see...

HAYES: You don`t think they will?

Some of them will, absolutely some of them.

STEELE: Some of them will, absolutely.

HAYES: That`s a layup.

STEELE: Yeah, absolutely.

SEDER: But they`re not going to spend a lot of time on it.

STEELE: Exactly.

SEDER: And he can come back and he`s going to say how is your policy
different than mine? And then they`re in a problem just like Michael was,
because the fact is, they might say electric, but he didn`t say electric.
He just said he was going to make the best wall ever. And they want...

HAYES: Also, let`s just be clear, Donald Trump is running to make
America great again, and no one can argument with that. Basically, that`s
an argument ender.

Michael, we`re going to get Chris Christie tomorrow. A lot of people
are saying -- I had an argument today with someone who was like why is he
doing it? And my feeling is, people forget that Chris Christie is a
genuinely talented retail politician that as low as his approval ratings
are, as bad shape as he is politically, then thing is if he comes in second
or first in New Hampshire, if he lives in New Hampshire for eight months
and shakes the hands of every primary voter, you never know what happens.

STEELE: You never know. And New Hampshire becomes a big X-factor not
just for everybody, but particularly for someone like Christie who can go
in there and upset the apple cart and make people have to play a different

That`s really what his strength is going to be going into this. He`s
going to bring baggage in. You know that. You`ve talked about it on this
show. And we have heard the stories.

But how he manages that is important. But how he is able to engage
New Hampshire voters is even more important, which as I suspect he`s going
to do.

I think you`re right, he`s going to just put the camp there and just
live and
camp Hew Hampshire for as long as he can to turn that narrative around on
the ground through that vote.

MCINTOSH: If this hinges on Chris Christie being able to make a state
of voters like him, personally...

HAYES: He did it twice in New Jersey. This is the thing, he is good
at it.

MCINTOSH: It`s New Jersey.

He insults a school teacher.

HAYES: No, he is genuinely good at that. People like that schtick,

SEDER: You know, tell it to Rudy Giuliani, I`m sorry.

I think New Hampshire would have been his last primary, if he didn`t
have this whole specter of being under investigations at this point. I
mean, if he finishes in the top five in New Hampshire.

HAYES: The big question about Chris Christie is can he do flinty?
That`s the question.

Michael Steele and Jess McIntosh -- I love that word -- Jess McIntosh,
and Sam Seder, thank you all.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts right
now. Good evening, Rachel.


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