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PoliticsNation, Thursday, June 25th, 2015

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Date: June 25, 2015
Guest: Jeffrey Rosen; Jan Schakowsky; Ed Rendell, Nicholas Kristof, Paul
Henderson, Gwen Jackson, Keith Mowens

REV. AL SHARPTON, MSNBC HOST: Tonight on politics nation, Obamacare is
here to stay. A huge win for the president. A huge setback for
Republicans. They are freaking out and saying some weird things about
chief justice Roberts.

Also a stunning twist in the Tamir Rice case. The prosecutor`s revelation
about this video on what would have been Tamir`s 13th birthday.

And hate won`t win. Funerals today in Charleston as victims` families
unite to create real change.

Welcome to "Politics Nation." I`m live tonight in Charleston.

We begin tonight with a major victory for the American people at the
Supreme Court. The court upheld a key part of the affordable care act, the
subsidies to help people pay for their insurance. The justices voted 6-3
to keep the subsidies.

In his decision, chief justice John Roberts wrote Congress passed the
affordable care act to improve health insurance markets, not to destroy

The decision is great news for the 6.4 million Americans who buy insurance
on the federal exchange. It is also great news for President Obama.

Here you can see him celebrating the decision with his chief of staff.
Moments later, he spoke to the American people.


this law is working. It has changed and in some cases saved American
lives. It`s set this country on a smarter, stronger course. And today
after more than 50 votes in Congress to repeal or weaken this law, after a
presidential election based in part on preserving our repealing that law,
after multiple challenges to this law before the Supreme Court, the
affordable care act is here to stay.


SHARPTON: After years of GOP attacks, the law was upheld once again by the
conservative chief justice. So how are Republicans coping?


REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R-OH), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: The problem with Obamacare
is still fundamentally the same. The law is broken. We are going to
continue our efforts to do everything we can to put the American people
back in charge of their own healthcare or not the federal government.


SHARPTON: They`re still in denial. They just don`t get it. And when a
reporter asked if the house will hold the vote on a GOP health care plan,
here`s what Speaker Boehner said.


BOEHNER: I`m not sure -- I`m not -- we`ll see. There has been discussion
about that. But most of the discussion so far this year was if the court
ruled against the administration.


SHARPTON: We`ll see? Doesn`t sound like much of a plan to me. And over
in the Senate, Harry Reid had some good advice.


SEN. HARRY REID (D), MINORITY LEADER: Stop banging your heads against the
wall in this legislation. It passed. It`s the law of this nation. Stop
it. Move on.


SHARPTON: Stop it. Move on. Get over it. Get a hobby. They can do
whatever they want, just stop trying to take healthcare away from millions
of people.


OBAMA: This is the not an abstract thing anymore. This is not a set of
political talking points. This is a reality. We can see how it is
working. This law is working. It is exactly as it is supposed to. In
many ways, this law is working better than we expected it to. For all of
misinformation campaigns, all the doomsday predictions, all the talk of
death penal (ph) and job disruption, for all the repeal attempts, this law
is now helping tens of millions of Americans.


SHARPTON: Joining me now is Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky, Democrat of
Illinois, and Jeffrey Rosen, president and CEO of the national constitution
center. Thank you both for being here.



SHARPTON: Congresswoman, today`s ruling upheld subsidies for more than
230,000 people in your home state of Illinois alone. How are you feeling
about the ruling today?

SCHAKOWSKY: This was a great day today. Really for 17 million Americans.
That`s how many more are insured because of the affordable care act. And
in my statement alone, 19,000 people who rely on subsidies are breathing a
sigh of relief. This is a really great day.

SHARPTON: You know, Jeffrey, chief justice Roberts has now twice written
opinions upholding the affordable care act. What surprised you today?

ROSEN: Well, I was not surprised. I had predicted that this would be a 6-
3 decision written by the chief. And I think it`s entirely in keeping with
what he said when he was nominated which is that he didn`t like 5-4
decisions on partisan grounds. He thinks it`s important to put the
legitimacy of the court above the ideology. And he believes in deferring
to Congress and actually figuring out what it actually meant to achieve
rather than playing gotcha by taking words out of context.

He is not a textious like Justice Scalia. He doesn`t believe that you
should ignore what Congress is trying do and it was so striking to see him
review history of the act, congress` efforts to insure millions of
Americans and I think it was a really proud day for the Supreme Court.

SHARPTON: You know, congresswoman, President Obama also said today we
still have work to do on health care. Listen to this.


OBAMA: We`re going to keep working to get more people covered. I`m going
to work as hard as I can to convince more Governors and state legislators
to take advantage of the law, put politics aside and expand Medicaid and
cover their citizens. We still got states out there that for political
reasons are not covering millions much people that they could be covering.


SHARPTON: Will this ruling make it harder for states for expand Medicaid?

SCHAKOWSKY: I hope that they will do that. As he said, millions of people
could get health care and billions of dollars could be going into states
that haven`t expanded Medicaid yet. It`s really unbelievable that
governors would turn down not only insuring their open people, but all that
money that would come from the federal government. This would not even
require a state match to come to their states.

But I`m telling you, Reverend Al, these Republicans especially those who
are running for president, are doubling down and talking about repeal and
replace. And that conversation has been going on since 2010 since the law
passed and we haven`t seen one iota of replace. And you saw John Boehner
our speaker hemming and hawing about whether or not we were going to see
any action to really replace Obamacare. 60 times the house has voted to
repeal Obamacare. And as you said, it`s time for them to call it off, to
get a life, to buckle down now to make this law even better.

SHARPTON: Jeffrey, Justice Scalia wrote the dissent for this case and
let`s just say he was not happy. Among other things, he wrote, we should
start calling this law Scotuscare or Supreme Court of the United States
scare, for those that don`t know what is Scotuscare. He said the majority
interpretation means words no longer have meaning. And, quote, "impossible
possibility thy name is an opinion on the affordable care act." Seems
pretty unusual, doesn`t it?

ROSEN: Well, he had some zingers in there. As you said he called chief
justice Roberts`s interpretation absurd. And you saw sorts of other, the
very colorful adjectives. This is consistent with Justice Scalia`s
interpretative philosophy. I mean, his principled about it. He is what -
he is called a texturalist. He believes if the words are clear, you should
just look at them and not look at what Congress was trying to achieve. In
his words, the words were clear. He quoted from a bunch of different
sections of the act that talked about exchanges established by the state
being eligible for a tax break but not those by the federal government.

So there is no doubt that he meant what he said and he accused chief
justice Roberts twice not only in this case but also in the previous
affordable care act case of rewriting the law in order to save Congress
from its own impression.

But again, chief justice Roberts had some very powerful responses to all
that saying that when you look at that language in context, it`s so obvious
what Congress was trying do, it was to make the whole thing work together
and it couldn`t possibly have intended chief justice Roberts said to deny
millions of people health insurance.

So it was a fascinating debate about how you should interpret the laws and
statutes. And I think both the majority and the dissent were making it in
good faith, but chief justice Roberts made a very strong argument.

SHARPTON: Congresswoman, a lot of conservatives are pretty unhappy with
Justice Roberts over the decision. Speaker Boehner wouldn`t even comment.
Listen to this.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you expect something different when John Roberts
was confirmed to the Supreme Court? Are you disappointed in how his tenure
has turned out?

BOEHNER: I`ll let the legal beagles around the country debate the chief
justice of the Supreme Court. I`m just a mere speaker of the house.


SHARPTON: But on twitter, we saw conservatives tweeting things calling him
Benedict Arnold, W.`s biggest mistake. One person said he was being
blackmailed or intimidated by President Obama. Pretty strong reaction,
isn`t it, congresswoman?

SCHAKOWSKY: Well, it`s ridiculous. I mean the truth of the matter is that
had they ruled against the affordable care act, I think it would have been
the most political decision since Bush v. Gore.

All of the evidence is very clear. There were four words that mentioned
the states. It never had language that excluded the federal government.
And all of the decisions that have been made by the congressional budget
office, by the internal revenue service, by the Republicans themselves in
their own budgets made the intent of the Congress very clear that we meant
to cover all of the -- not just the state exchanges, but all of the states
in the union. And so they`re angry because they don`t like Obamacare. But
the court made the correct decision as our expert has said.

SHARPTON: Well, Congresswoman Jan Schakowsky and Jeffrey Rosen, thank you
both for your time tonight especially on this huge day.

ROSEN: Thank you, Reverend.

SCHAKOWSKY: Thank you.

SHARPTON: Coming up, a big revelation about the video in the Tamir Rice
shooting and an emotional interview with his father. Speaking out, his
father is, on what would have been his son`s 13th birthday.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It in my heart, yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is it tough feeling in there and not here?



SHARPTON: Tamir Rice would have been 13 years old today.

Plus healing and hope and challenging in Charleston. New signs tonight
that real change could happen even people far apart on most issues like
myself and South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley can find reason to hug.



SHARPTON: Lots of good cheer outside the Supreme Court today. And in the
oval office, it was all hugs. A big step forward for the president and the
country. But for Republicans who want his job, well, it was another story.
We`ll look at that next.


SHARPTON: The Supreme Court`s Obamacare decision is throwing 2016
Republicans into a tizzy. But Hillary Clinton is celebrating. She
tweeted, yes! Supreme Court affirms what is we know is true in our hearts
and under the law. Health insurance should be affordable and available to
all. And posted a photograph of herself hugging President Obama.

2016 Republicans aren`t taking the news as well.


DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It`s a total disaster. It`s a big
lie. He got by lying 28 defendant times. So it is the big lie.

Party may nominate, the one thing I can assure you is that they will repeal
and replace Obamacare with something better.

SEN. RAND PAUL (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`m really disappointed in
this. I think it`s a missed opportunity. I think it is a mistake.

decision. I believe Obamacare is bad for Americans, but for the country.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These rogue Houdini`s have
Trans more reified (ph) a federal exchange into an exchange, quote,
"established by the state." This is lawless.


SHARPTON: I`ve seen some GOP freak outs in my time, but this is a big one.

Mike Huckabee called it an out of control act of judicial tyranny. What a
mouthful. Carly Fiorina called it outrageous. And Chris Christie said the
decision turns common language on his head. I guess John Roberts won`t be
on their Christmas card list this year.

Other candidates just went back to the archives to dust off their old
talking points. Jeb Bush called it fatally flawed. Rick Perry says it`s
time we repealed Obamacare. Haven`t heard that one before. Scott Walker
called it destructive and costly. And Bobby Jindal said we should repeal
and replace. Is this deja vu all over again for Republicans, the 2016
election is already sounding a lot like 2012. And we all know how that
turned out.

Joining me now is former Pennsylvania governor and DNC chair Ed Rendell.
Thanks for being here tonight, governor.

for America.

SHARPTON: Yes, it is. We`ve seen this kind of freak out on the Republican
side before, though, haven`t we?

RENDELL: Yes, we have. And what bothers me, Rev., is that they continue
to lie about the affordable care act even in the face of new facts. Jeb
Bush said it`s a job killing mandate. Well, has he been watching the
economy ever since the affordable care act went into law, each month we`ve
added private sector jobs. It`s not a job killer at all.

Secondly, they say it will cause health care costs to rise. Well, before
the affordable care act, health care costs were rising 10 percent a year.
Since that, the increase has been much lower. And in fact in 14 states
this year, Rev., they actually reduced health care costs. No increase, a
reduction in 14 states.

And thirdly, they said it will add to the federal deficit, the CBO said
originally that it would cut the federal deficit by $100 billion over ten
years. Now that estimate is closer to $200 billion over ten years. So
they continue to sing the same song and it`s incorrect, it`s lies and they
know it is.

SHARPTON: You know, Republicans have had so many chances to stop this law,
governor. The 2010 Congress before the law passed, the 2012 Supreme Court
case, the 2012 presidential election and the Supreme Court case today. Why
can`t Republicans running for president just let it go?

RENDELL: Because I think it`s a good issue with the base in the primaries.
But each time we take a poll, the affordable care act becomes much more
popular. And I`m tell you, Rev., every one of these Republican candidates
who have been trashing the decision down deep have to be happy about the
decision. Because if they decided that the eight million people who get
health care subsidies through the federal exchanges no longer could get
them, they would have to come up with some concrete idea how to replace
health care for those eight million. And they don`t have an idea. So they
are very, very fortunate tonight that the Supreme Court decided what they

SHARPTON: Here`s what Karl Rove had to say today about the ruling earlier
today. Watch this.


replace the affordable care act, I do believe this will be a big issue in
the 2016 presidential Election. This is a victory for the president, but
it`s not the end of the battle.


SHARPTON: Now Karl Rove is saying it`s not the end of the battle. It is
not the end of the fight. But Republicans have lost every battle. I mean,
what`s the strategy here, governor?

RENDELL: Well, I guess what they are talking about is let`s assume
hypothetically that in 2016, we elected a Republican president, Republican
senate, Republican house. Then would they be in position to repeal the
affordable care act? Absolutely not. Because as you know, in the Senate,
40 senators can block anything from going into law. So as long as the
Democrats had 40 senators in the Senate, and that is unlikely to ever
change, they can never get the repeal through. So really again they`re
misleading the American public and they know they`re misleading the
American public.

SHARPTON: Governor Ed Rendell, thank you for your time tonight.

RENDELL: My pleasure. Good day.

SHARPTON: Ahead, Charleston starts laying the rest of the beautiful nine
and the country starts to open a new conversation about progress.

Plus big news in the Tamir Rice case. The prosecution says there is higher
quality video of the shooting that we didn`t though about before.


SHARPTON: These are live pictures from mother Emanuel in Charleston at the
wake of Clementa Pinckney. He`ll be laid to rest tomorrow. The first
funerals were held today. I was there as we remembered Ethel Lance, a 75-
year-old mother of five. We heard from his grandson.


BRANDON RICHER, ETHEL LANCE`S GRANDSON: She was a victim of hate and she
can be a symbol for love. That`s what she was in life. Hate is powerful,
but love is more powerful.


SHARPTON: We also bid farewell to Sharonda Singleton, a mother of three
who coached track and field.


personality and character to their community.


SHARPTON: As the nation embraces nine grieving families, we face some
tough questions. Just yesterday, Alabama removed the confederate flag from
its statehouse grounds. But as the "New York Times" column suggests,
tearing down the confederate flag is just a start. It`s hard to focus on
the flag when, quote, "almost two-thirds of black children grow up in low
income families and when black men in their 20s without a diploma are more
likely to be incarcerated than employed."

There are bigger questions to confront and we`re starting to see it.
Protesters rallied in the home district of a GOP congressman blocking a fix
to the voting rights act and a bipartisan group of law makers just
introduced an ambitious new bill aimed at criminal justice reform. The
tough conversation is starting to happen. But it`s just a start.

Joining me now is the author of that "New York Times" piece, Nicholas
Kristof. Thank you for being here tonight.


SHARPTON: You know, Nicholas, I read your piece on the plane flying down
this morning. It inspired the speech I gave today. Because you talk about
taking down the flag is important, but there are deeper problems we cannot
gloss over, aren`t they?

KRISTOF: Absolutely. And you know, we in the news media, we tend to focus
on the drama, on the symbols, ad those symbols are real. I mean, that flag
was used as the banner by which people, you now, fought to extend slavery,
to fight civil rights, to led civil rights protesters. But at the end of
the day, it is a symbol. And if you - and I think it is now time both to
celebrate that triumph over that symbol, but also to pivot to matter in
real stuff sense. And if you think about the inequities in America today
there, they don`t involve as much the flag. They involve the fact that a
black boy is at birth is projected to live five years less than a white
boy. They involve profound inequities in education, in incarceration, in
criminal justice. And I think that is the agenda we now have to swivel
over to.

SHARPTON: You write, "So sure good riddance to confederate flags across
the country. And then let`s swivel to address the larger national disgrace
in 2015, so many children still don`t have an equal shot at life because of
the color of their skin." How big a role does economic fairness play into
the equal shot that you mentioned, Nicholas?

KRISTOF: You know, absolutely. But it`s complicated. And if you look at
the progress since the 1960s, then in some ways there really has been
tremendous progress. And there is a much bigger black middle class than
there ever was before. But there are an awful lot of people who are stuck
and are not getting traction. And the working class in general has
suffered. Those people who were educationally left behind, who are high
school dropouts or only high school graduates, whether they`re white or
black, face a huge obstacle and those who were African-American in

And so if we try to figure out, you know, where we go from here, then I
think we have to focus on some of these educational issues and then
providing better jobs, more economic opportunity, and there are no silver
bullets here. But in a sense there is silver buckshot. There are a lot of
things that individually will help to create more opportunity and less

SHARPTON: There was even a report today where black middle class don`t get
into the same neighborhoods as white middle class and it affects the
environment and the education and all. And today I mentioned a bipartisan
group of Congress that just introduced a criminal justice overhaul. And
earlier this week, I had a conservative named Grover Norquist here on my
show to talk about similar reforms. Listen to this.


GROVER NORQUIST, AMERICANS FOR TAX REFORM: Locking people up and throwing
away the key does not necessarily get you less crime and safer communities.
You can keep safety, you can punish crime without some of these mandatory
minimums, very long sentences that a number of laws have mandated.


KRISTOF: Yes, I mean, mass in-incarceration is actually one issue --

SHARPTON: So, this is gaining momentum, this criminal justice issue even
across party lines. How could major changes to our criminal justice system
improve the bigger problem that you wrote about today?

KRISTOF: Well, you know, I think indeed we will going to see progress on
criminal justice reform for a simple reason that mass incarceration is
expensive. And the argument that has resonated, I mean, for example one of
the leaders in moving away from mass incarceration is Texas. And that`s
not because of a social justice argument or because of an equity argument,
it`s because mass incarceration is expensive and Texas has been spending a
lot of people of money, locking up a lot of people and they can let some
out of prison and crime rates won`t go you. So, I think that we`re going
to see some progress on criminal justice reform as it relates to mass

I think the heavier lifting is going to be issues of educational equity,
job equity. And I think more broadly, you know, we`re certainly seeing
less of the hard, you know, flat out old fashioned KKK racists. And
everybody recognizes that. But I think it`s much harder conversation to
talk about unconscious racism. You know, not the principal who doesn`t
want any black kids in his school, but rather the principal who believes in
equal rights and yet unconsciously when he sees as black boy misbehaving,
he`s more likely to expel that kid than a similar white kid. And these are
much harder issues to address together, heads around. I would love to see
some kind of a truth and reconciliation commission in this country partly
to raise these issues to help put them on the agenda to start some of these
really difficult conversations in white America.

SHARPTON: Nicholas Kristof, thank you so much for your time tonight.

KRISTOF: My pleasure.

SHARPTON: Coming up, new higher quality video of the Tamir Rice shooting.
But will it speed up the investigation?

Plus, lots of people were surprised when Governor Haley and I shared a hug
today in Charleston. But they shouldn`t be. I`ll tell you why, ahead.


SHARPTON: Big news in the Tamir Rice investigation on a day with special
significance. Today would have been his 13th birthday. The prosecutor now
saying the investigation will be done, quote, "in a matter of months." The
family has criticized the pace of the investigation, the prosecutor also
revealing a video of the shooting captured by a security camera is of much
higher quality than previously thought. Those images showed Tamir Rice
playing with the pellet gun last November before officers shot him less
than two seconds after arriving on the scene. Police say officers didn`t
know the weapon was a pellet gun and that they warned him before shooting.
A sheriff`s investigation found no evidence of a warning.

And Tamir Rice`s father is speaking out with MSNBC`s Trymaine Lee.


TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: What kind of memories do you hold on to
about Tamir?

LEONARD WARNER, TAMIR RICE`S FATHER: Ranking on each other, talking
laughing about that, playing video games.

LEE: Where do you feel him most?

WARNER: In my heart.

LEE: In your heart.

WARNER: Uh-mm.

LEE: Is that tough to it feel him in there and not here?

WARNER: Real tough.


SHARPTON: Joining me now is veteran prosecutor Paul Henderson. Thank you
for being here.

PAUL HENDERSON, VETERAN PROSECUTOR: Pleasure to be here, Reverend.

SHARPTON: Paul, prosecutor says the investigation could be finished in a
matter of months. What is your take on that?

HENDERSON: Well, obviously what he`s talking about is his decision to use
the grand jury. And we`ve talked about this before, the prosecutor at any
time can charge on his own initiative and proceed by way of preliminary
hearing for charges like this. And so saying that it`s going to will be
extended by a matter of months means that he`s going to present the
evidence to a grand jury to seek an indictment and to seek criminal charges
rather than just filing the charges himself and presenting them in front of
a judge.

And we`ve heard commentary from side judges talking about what they think
might could happen or could happen on the evidence. But I think it`s going
to be evidence watching how this evidence unfolds specifically with
potential charges against the driver, the field training officer in this
case. Because it`s not just the shooter that we`re examining. There could
be negligence homicide charges against with field investigating officer
coming to that location. And coming up so close in an isolated part for
someone that they`ve fought was a suspect with a gun. So, that`s going to
be part of the analysis and part of what the grand jury is going to be
evaluating as they determined charges in this case from a criminal

SHARPTON: But this seems to be taking so long. In fact, you had one judge
that the family`s attorney went to to get an advisory and in a week he came
back and made some very clear remarks here. Tamir Rice`s mother, she spoke
about the pace of the investigation six months after the shooting. Watch


SAMARIA RICE, MOTHER OF TAMIR RICE: Less than a second, my son is gone and
I want to know how long I got to wait for justice.


SHARPTON: It`s now been seven months since Tamir Rice was shot. Is there
pressure within the community to get this done sooner?

HENDERSON: There is absolutely that pressure from the community. And
again, this is a terrible tragedy and we see again another African-American
that has been killed after an encounter with law enforcement. And so, the
analysis now has shifted on to the prosecution yet again to make a decision
as to how they are going to proceed and that`s with the criminal analysis.
Because they always have the option of charging independently aside from
the grand jury, but we still have the civil charges to contemplate, as
well, and that`s a whole separate analysis and separate track.

SHARPTON: Well, what is your take on this new so-called enhanced video?

HENDERSON: Well, the enhanced video is going to be used when they analyze
what a reasonable officer would have done under those facts and
circumstances. And so what is going to come into play is the information
about whether or not they had the information from the caller themselves
that made the call initially that said there was a suspect that could have
been a kid with a fake gun. Did they know that? Did they analyze that?
How and when did he make the decision to shoot in under two seconds? Was
that reasonable. Was there a zone of danger?

These are the questions that are going to be asked. And now as the
prosecutor has indicated are going to be presented to a grand jury for them
to determine whether or not a reasonable officer, not just this officer, a
reasonable officer under those facts and under those circumstances would
have acted the same way and would have truly believed that he was either in
danger, the officer, or that Tamir was a danger to others. And that`s
going to be a tough question I think from a defense perspective to try and
defend because we`ve all seen the video. If the video is even clearer than
the video that we`ve already seen, that doesn`t help us answer those
questions any easier.

SHARPTON: Paul Henderson, thank you for your time tonight.

HENDERSON: Thanks for having me, Reverend.

SHARPTON: Coming up, millions of people have something to celebrate after
today`s ObamaCare decision. Here is just one of them at the court. I`ll
talk to her, next.


SHARPTON: The Supreme Court`s decision to uphold the Affordable Care Act
is a huge relief to the 6.4 million Americans who were at risk losing their
subsidies to pay for the insurance. Today jubilation outside the Supreme
Court as people celebrated the ruling. Including Gwen Jackson from
Sugarland, Texas, whose husband was able to have lifesaving surgery for a
pre-existing condition. Thanks to the ACA, without the subsidies, the
family would not be able to afford insurance or the surgeries her husband
has needed.

Joining me now is Gwen Jackson and Keith Mowens (ph) whose family went
without health care for two years before the got subsidies to enroll in a
plan. Thanks for being here tonight.

GWEN JACKSON, ACA SUBSIDY RECIPIENT: Thank you Reverend for having me.

KEITH MOWENS, ACA SUBSIDY RECIPIENT: Thank you, Reverend Sharpton.

SHARPTON: Gwen, let me go to you first. You were at the court when the
ruling came down. It sure looks like you were pretty excited.

JACKSON: I was so excited. I couldn`t believe it. I stood in line with a
lot of law students and they all said that it wouldn`t be, it was going to
be a negative decision. And I sat in the Supreme Court and heard it, and
it was so positive. So, yes, I was very excited.

SHARPTON: Now, tell us, Gwen, what would have happened to your family if
the court struck down the subsidies.

JACKSON: So right now we`re being subsidized with our insurance because we
were out of the network and my husband had a pre-existing condition. So
what subsequently would happen is we would have to come up with that
additional amount per month for that subsidy.

SHARPTON: Keith, how important would ObamaCare subsidies be to your

MOWENS: Well, it`s the difference between having insurance and not having

SHARPTON: Well, what would have happened if the court`s decision went the
other way, what would have happened in your situation, Keith?

MOWENS: In our situation in our house, we do have four of us that are
under the ObamaCare now. And what we would do if it was an adverse
decision is that we -- three of us who are relatively healthy would have
dropped our insurance and we`d have retained my wife who could not get
insurance before because of a pre-existing condition. And we would have
kept her on the plan. So what would have happened in any way we would have
covered her premiums. So what would have happened is the healthy people in
our house would have dropped our insurance and the one that needed it would
have kept it.

SHARPTON: Now, Gwen -- let me ask you something though before I got back
to Gwen Keith. What was life before you got the subsidy? What was that
like before you got these subsidies?

MOWENS: Well, we didn`t have insurance. We could not get insurance
because of pre-existing conditions. And it was an incredible mental
strain, very hard thing to take day to day on whether or not you were going
to be able to cover medical costs should they occur.


MOWENS: And my wife needed simple thyroid medicine. She was a West Nile
patient. And she needed the medication for that that we were very hard to
purchase. Just for one blood test was about $700 and it was prohibitive.
And so you`re just living under this strain of whether or not you`ll ever
meet your medical costs if they should come up.

SHARPTON: Gwen, what do you say to people who continue to call for the
repeal of this law?

JACKSON: Until they`re directly impacted by this decision, they can`t
understand the importance of such a ruling. So, it`s sad to me that people
still feel that even after the decision came down, that potentially they
could go back in and appeal it. It`s just sad that they don`t understand
the 6.4 million people that it was impacting. It`s just not me and my
husband. It`s 6.4 million people. There had to be a reason for this
insurance. There had to be a reason for the lawsuit. There had to be a
reason for the policy. So, I don`t know what to say but it`s sad that they
don`t understand how important it is to more than a small group of people.
It`s the masses.

SHARPTON: Gwen Jackson and Keith Mowens, we thank you both for your time
tonight and good luck to both of you and your families.

JACKSON: Thank you, Reverend Sharpton.

MOWENS: Thank you, Reverend Sharpton. The best to you.

SHARPTON: Coming up, my hug today with Governor Nikki Haley. Why the
tragedy in Charleston is sparking some important conversation and at least
bringing us in the same room to talk about serious things.


SHARPTON: It was a tough day for everyone here in Charleston as we laid
two of the beautiful nine to rest. But I also had a surprising moment with
the republican Governor Nikki Haley at one of the funerals. Why that has
me cautiously hopeful, next.



SHARPTON: There are moments (INAUDIBLE) is when we find out who we are.
We`re not just about what`s easy. We`re tested about what brings out all
this in us.


SHARPTON: Earlier today, I had the privilege of speaking at the funeral
for one of the beautiful nine, Sharonda Coleman Singleton. This terrible
event is testing us, but it`s also bringing us together in the same room.
And today I talked about the words I shared with two South Carolina
Republicans, Governor Nikki Haley and State Senator Paul Thurman.


SHARPTON: This morning at another service, I walked over and spoke to
Governor Haley. (INAUDIBLE) She usually sees me out the window watching.


And I spoke on the phone with Mr. Thurman whose great grandfather owned my
family, the Thurmans, my great grandfather owned by Anna Thurman. And
Alexander Sharpton. We will going to keep disagreeing, but a conversation
has started.


SHARPTON: When it was Governor Haley`s turn to speak, she responded.


GOV. NIKKI HALEY (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I do want to respond respectfully
and with great humility respond to the Reverend Sharpton.


And to Reverend Sharpton I would like to say that if you were protesting
outside my window, if you would have come inside and head out your hand, I
would have hugged you.


SHARPTON: I`ll hug you back.

HALEY: And I will hug you.


SHARPTON: And then we did hug. It`s a step in the right direction, but
only a step. We need to build on it and we need to learn from the victims`
families. One victim`s granddaughter started a social media campaign
around the #HateWon`tWin. My challenge is, as people now start taking down
the confederate flag or calling on it, as Mr. Kristof said in his column in
"The Times," don`t just take it down, change the policies, let`s have real
conversations about the criminal justice system, about voting. Let`s take
this moment and make real change happen.

Thanks for watching. I`m Al Sharpton. "HARDBALL" starts right now.


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