updated 6/30/2015 12:11:57 PM ET 2015-06-30T16:11:57

Date: June 29, 2015
Guest: Kathleen Parker, John Feehery, April Ryan, Ruth Marcus


Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

This is, let`s joyously agree, an unusual time for progressives,
political newbies and vintage liberals alike, a time of triumph. The
Supreme Court has validated the president`s Affordable Care Act, a national
health care program Democrats and some progressive Republicans have sought
for practically a century.

And it`s a time of equality in marriage for gay and lesbian people
that seemed to them, and those who care about them, as dreamy as Judy
Garland singing "Somewhere Over the Rainbow," and there`s the rainbow on
the White House.

And yet, and yet, here we are with victory on both fronts, health care
for the country, marriage equality for those historically denied it, and
looks like they`re taking down that flag.

I`m joined right now by Barney Frank, the former U.S. congressman from
Massachusetts and the author of "Frank: A Life in Politics," which is in
the book stores, syndicated columnist Kathleen Parker and Perry Bacon,
senior political reporter for NBC News.

Anyway, Congressman Frank, thank you for joining us.


MATTHEWS: I remember 20 years ago, you and I were in Philadelphia at
an HRC event, a lot of young men there, young people were there and they
weren`t so optimistic about anything in terms of gay rights. And you stood
up and said, Have hope, times are changing. This is, I think, 20 years

FRANK: Yes, you know, Chris, it was 19 years ago that we were
debating the Defense of Marriage Act on the floor of the House. And in the
Senate that year, the vote was 85 to 12 against same-sex marriage. In the
House, it was 360-something to 67.

But my message was that the only way to respond was politically, was
to get our people to the polls, to lobby. And slowly but surely, that
brought it about. Well, I take it back. Not so slowly. Look at 19 years
ago with the House and Senate overwhelmingly voting -- most Democrats --
every Republican but one and most of the Democrats voting to make same-sex
marriage illegal, for all practical purposes, and that`s where we are

MATTHEWS: Remember Mr. Dually (ph) who said, Methinks (ph) the
Supreme Court listens to the election returns? Right now, 60 percent of
the American people support same-sex marriage, marriage equality. Do you
think that Anthony Kennedy -- well, I think he`s a good guy in this regard
anyway, but you think they were listening?

FRANK: Not to the polls, but to the reality. I do think -- you know,
I wrote a piece about this -- some of the conservatives have said, Well,
the courts shouldn`t get into this. But it was the court, the
Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court under the great Margaret Marshall,
that broke the cycle.

We had this problem, Chris. We couldn`t get support for same-sex
marriage because people thought it was going to have terrible consequences,
and we couldn`t prove that it wouldn`t have terrible consequences until we
got same-sex marriage.

And then the Massachusetts Supreme Court in 2003 broke that cycle, and
they let us have marriage. And within a fairly short period, reality beat
the prejudice. We were then able to show that all of these fears about the
socially destabilizing effect of marriage were wrong.

MATTHEWS: Kathleen, you know, the speed of light in politics is
getting faster, people being belighted (ph) -- or not being benighted.


MATTHEWS: I mean, if you think gay marriage was the fastest thing in
our lifetime to change in terms of the public perceptions -- including the
Clintons, I mean, the big people, the big, you know, moderate to
progressive people...

PARKER: Well, in 2008, just seven years ago, the president was not in
favor of same-sex marriage (INAUDIBLE)

MATTHEWS: He didn`t say so. He didn`t say that.

PARKER: He didn`t say that, but he also didn`t say he was for it
until president -- Vice President Biden...

MATTHEWS: Yes. Well, then I saw that flag about to come down, and I,
Go wait a minute, some things are even moving faster, maybe not as
significant to some, but certainly very significant to some.

PARKER: Well, it`s not so fast. We`ve been working on this for a
very long time. The state of South Carolina...

MATTHEWS: You`re from there.

PARKER: Yes. Well, I`ve lived there for about the last 25 years, and
my mother is from there, so my family goes back many -- many -- you know,
for a long, long time.

But the flag doesn`t mean much to most people in term of even noticing
that it`s there, but we did bring it down from the Capitol dome 15 years
ago. and then it went to the statehouse ground. And then -- you know, and
there`s always been this movement among activists, white and black, to get
that flag off state property and put in a museum, where I think it does

But this event that took place in Charleston, this horrible, horrible
event, was galvanizing in a fresh way because the shooter was pictured with
this flag. And you know, most of us do understand that it has been -- if
it was once to honor our heritage, it is clearly not anymore. It`s a...


MATTHEWS: Perry, I want to respond to this surprising moment. I
wasn`t here Friday to catch this. But sometimes in politics, it`s pretty
dramatic. On Friday in Charleston, South Carolina, President Obama
delivered a rousing, forceful eulogy for the Reverend Clementa Pinckney.
He spoke about the unhealed wounds of racism that still linger in the
country, and he called the removal of that Confederate flag a modest but
meaningful step forward toward the healing. Let`s watch him.


blind to the pain that the Confederate flag stirred in too many of our


OBAMA: As we all have to acknowledge, the flag has always represented
more than just ancestral pride.

Removing the flag from this state`s Capitol would not be an act of
political correctness. It would not be an insult to the valor of
Confederate soldiers. It would simply be an acknowledgement that the cause
for which they fought, the cause of slavery, was wrong.



MATTHEWS: He concluded his eulogy with quite a moment. The president
began singing "Amazing Grace" and was quickly joined by the entire
congregation. Let`s watch and listen.


OBAMA: (SINGING) I once was lost, but now I`m found, was blind but
now I see.


MATTHEWS: Well, that was real, Perry.

PERRY BACON, NBC REPORTER: Very little surprises me in politics.
That moment, I was really transfixed by it. I couldn`t believe he was
singing. The whole audience was there. It was like a very moving moment I
think we`ll all never forget about him.

Also, think about last week. His legacy`s always going to be, first
of all, he`s the first black president. If you think about universal
health care, gay marriage -- gay marriage being legal across the country,
the flag not only coming down in South Carolina but probably (ph) Walmart
not selling it, anyone not selling it.

He`s now not (INAUDIBLE) the first black president, but also this sort
of liberal figure, the way a Ronald Reagan has been among conservatives.
He`s really moved the country, or the country has moved while he`s been
president in a decidedly liberal direction on a lot of really big issues.
And last week sort of really cemented his legacy, I think, as this really
consequential figure in politics.

MATTHEWS: Barney, how does that sound to you? Does it sound like
he`s been able to grab the lead and lead from the front?

FRANK: I think, yes. The country is moving, as well, and (INAUDIBLE)
the president or anybody else. You know, the leader can`t move a country
that`s not ready. I liken it -- you can`t make the waves, but when you see
them coming, you can help direct them. I think he has taken very
appropriate and effective advantage of this.

And can I add one thing about the flag? I was with a friend who is a
Mississippian now living in the North, and he reminded me that in much of
the South, the flag was not as big a deal before the segregation cases.


FRANK: In much of the South, the flag came back again, into greater
prominence, beginning in the `60s as a symbol of white resistance in the
South to integration, to racial equality. So I give that repudiation of
that flag a lot of significance.

It I hope marks the end of a very bad period in America when the
reaction of the Supreme Court -- remember what Lyndon Johnson said about,
We`re losing the South for generations?


FRANK: You got the flag coming back in opposition to the effort to
make people equal across racial lines, and so it`s particularly significant
that it`s now finally going to go away.

MATTHEWS: You know, our culture, I would say, is more of a leader. I
think if you watch primetime television, it`s very pro-gay rights. It`s
very unquestioning of the fact that that should be the way it is.

And yet if you want to have another (INAUDIBLE) of history, the 1930s,
all those movies that we watched -- "Gone With the Wind," all of them --
celebrated the South. The South were the good guys. They were the noble
cause. They were the Brits, basically. And the North, on the right side,
the "Battle Hymn of the Republic," fighting at the risk and loss to their
lives, going down in the South to end slavery, were always considered
somehow interlopers.

So I don`t think the culture has always been leading us in the right
direction, but lately, I think it has...


PARKER: No, I agree with you, and I agree with Barney Frank, that
this is -- you know, the people have changed. The culture has changed.
And President Obama, rather than -- you know, this may be another example
of his leading from behind a little bit, where he just says, OK, the people
are ready, so now we`re going to come forward and we`re going to take
advantage of this moment and ride that wave all the way.

But I think in that -- where he -- when he was in that church with
those folks and singing that song particularly, think that was a moment
that was, you know, above and beyond any that I have ever experienced
covering politics.

MATTHEWS: Let`s talk hard constitutional development. George Will
once said, and blew me away with this comment, Congressman -- I was -- I`m
ready for it, but loved when I was hearing it -- he said the American
people are conservative. They wish to conserve the New Deal.

And when we have a social program...

FRANK: Who said that?

MATTHEWS: ... that catches on, Congressman -- you respond to this --
like Medicare -- remember the great guy who said -- sounded like an idiot -
- he says, Keep the government out of Medicare. What?

OK, I mean, it`s like -- now we have an ACA approved by this week the
Supreme Court, positive review by the court, and I would think politics
played a part in it, including the part of John Roberts, which was, You
know what? The people need this now. They depend on it now. Don`t take
away from the people what they clearly are getting used to and relying on.
Your thoughts.

FRANK: Yes, I think Roberts, more than any other -- he`s a chief
justice who takes as part of his responsibility maintaining the role of the
court as a respected arbiter, and I think that`s legitimate. He does not
want the court to do those things -- I forget who wrote the articles about
the self-inflected wounds of the court, like Dred Scott. I think he
legitimately, as chief justice, doesn`t want to see the court damaging
itself and being damaged.

And as for your point about the -- they want to conserve the New Deal
-- it has always struck me -- I would -- I would go through political
campaigns and legislative battles, where the conservatives were opposing
the current reform, but talking about how wonderful the past one was. And
it struck me that a lot of my conservative friends, very much like dead
Democrats. They like everything that Roosevelt did and Truman did...


MATTHEWS: I know. But better that...

FRANK: ... and Kennedy did, but they don`t like what anybody`s doing

MATTHEWS: I know. Because you know why. Because there`s a fight that`s
going on. But I`d rather like them after they`re dead...


MATTHEWS: It`s a start, at least!

Anyway, Congressman Barney Great, it is to have you on the show. I
tell you, I really appreciate you coming her. Thank you. And Kathleen
Parker, it`s great having you on the show. And Perry Back, I`ve gotten so
used to you, you`re like Medicare to me. I need you.


MATTHEWS: We`ll have much more on President Obama`s best week ever
coming up later in our HARDBALL. We`re going to get really into it and
what it means to both parties.

And up next, as good as things are right now for the president and his
party, there`s a civil war breaking out among Republicans on this marriage
equality issue. They don`t want to give it up. What was the line in
"Brokeback Mountain,"? I can`t...

PARKER: "I can`t quit you."

MATTHEWS: "I can`t quit you!" Anyway, the ones that have a better
shot at winning the White House want to move on. The ones who just want to
fight the primaries and have some fun in Iowa don`t want to. The rest,
we`re going to fight (ph) about that to the end.

Anyway, let`s get -- look at this. New poll numbers right now are
falling, and those are for Chris Christie. But tomorrow, the governor of
New Jersey is announcing for president. That`s going to be interesting.
And with all troubles, what exactly are his chances? Fair question.

Finally, "Let Me Finish" with the stunning observation -- I think it
is -- that the United States Supreme Court knows this country.

And this is HARDBALL, place for politics.


MATTHEWS: NBC Universal has cut ties with Donald Trump. A statement
released by NBC Universal today read, in part, "At NBC, respect and dignity
for all people are cornerstones of our values. Due to the recent
derogatory statements by Donald Trump regarding immigrants, NBC Universal
is ending its business relationship with Mr. Trump. To that end, the
annual Miss USA and Miss Universe pageants, which are part of a joint
venture between NBC and Trump, will no longer air on NBC."

And during his presidential announcement, Trump said Mexican
immigrants are, quote, "bringing drugs, they`re bringing crime, they`re
rapists, and some I assume are good people."

In a statement today, Trump himself said he stands by his statements
on illegal immigration, which he says are accurate, and adds, quote, "NBC
is weak, and like everybody else, is trying to be politically correct.
That is why our country is in serious trouble."

By the way, NBC is, of course, a parent company of our own MSNBC.

We`ll be right back after this.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. While Democrats have universally
praised Friday`s historic court ruling on marriage equality, the Republican
field of sweet 16`ers has splintered in every direction possible.

Scott Walker is so far leading the charge for a -- catch this --
constitutional amendment to overturn the court`s actions. In a statement
echoing the party`s 2012 platform, he says it`s, quote, "the only
alternative left" for the American people.

Lindsey Graham, surprisingly, has come out strongly against that
rallying cry. Here he was yesterday.


the platform, but it will, in my view, hurt us in 2016 because it`s a
process that`s not going to bear fruit. So no, I would not engage in the
constitutional amendment process as a party going into 2016.

Accept the court`s ruling. Fight for the religious liberties of every


MATTHEWS: So there you have it. Lindsey Graham (INAUDIBLE) real hawk
on foreign policy coming out for marriage equality. Anyway, in an op-ed
out this weekend, Rand Paul agrees pretty much. He says he wants the
government -- presumably the federal government -- to get out the heck out
of the marriage business altogether.

Now, here we go down the old ways. Ted Cruz is out there browbeating
the court. Here`s what he told Sean Hannity on his radio show after the


darkest 24 hours in our nation`s history.

Yesterday and today were both naked and shameless judicial activism.
They have undermined the fundamental legitimacy of the United States
Supreme Court.


MATTHEWS: Oh! Sometimes he amazes me. Anyway, Bobby Jindal says
he`d abolish the court altogether.


court that says, We don`t care about the meaning of words and we don`t care
about the Constitution. Reporter asked me about it. I said (INAUDIBLE)
might as well get rid of the Supreme Court and save some money. What`s the
point? They`s not a judicial body anymore. They`ve become a political


MATTHEWS: And Mike Huckabee is also talking outright rebellion. I`m
not sure what he means by this, but here it is. "I will not acquiesce to
an imperial court any more than our founders acquiesced to an imperial
British monarch." I don`t know what that means.

Anyway, David Corn`s the Washington bureau chief with "Mother Jones,"
and John Feehery`s a Republican strategist.

Out of kindness -- oh, no, I`m not going to be kind.


MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) David. What do you make of -- I mean, I just -
- this is really my list (ph) of what I think of these guys, to be honest
with you. It fits completely with my view of them generally. Jindal -- I
don`t know why he`s pandering on this thing, and I don`t know -- and Cruz
is just nasty about this.


MATTHEWS: ... nasty.

pandering for votes.

MATTHEWS: The darkest days in our history is because gays can marry?
Is that the darkest day in our history?

CORN: It`s worse than 9/11, Chris. It`s worse than Pearl Harbor,
according to people out there who`ve actually made that comparison. Scott

MATTHEWS: What about...


MATTHEWS: ... losing the revolution? What about 600,000 guys killed
in the Civil War?

CORN: What about any day of slavery? I mean, you can -- you can come
up with far darker days...

MATTHEWS: Darkest day in our history.

CORN: Listen to Scott Walker. You know, people like...


MATTHEWS: ... because I thought better of him.

CORN: Listen, people like to say that he`s a brainy, practical

Thirty-six states...


MATTHEWS: But you never -- will you say one good thing about a
Republican and we will move on? Just say one good thing about a
Republican, any -- any Republican.

CORN: I loved John Lindsay.


MATTHEWS: We don`t have an hour to explain.


CORN: I like Rand Paul on criminal reform.



CORN: But let me just make this point about Scott Walker.

He says there should be a constitutional amendment; 36 states already
have legalized gay marriage. Are any of those states going to vote for a
constitutional amendment? This is just complete pandering that is


MATTHEWS: But that is a question. Are you going to take back from
the states? See, this is the problem that we`re in, the status quo.

Now 36 states have marriage equality. So, are you going to go around
and through some extralegal process take back those marriage licenses,
separate those couples? How are you going to celebrate the Red Sea? How
do you do this at this point? It`s late.

JOHN FEEHERY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Listen, my humble opinion is
that the Supreme Court did the Republican Party a big favor. We can now
turn to national security issues and economic security issues.


CORN: But they are not doing...


FEEHERY: Well, listen, I think...


MATTHEWS: They`re doing Jeb Bush a favor.

FEEHERY: The higher up you are in the polls, the better chance you
have of winning, the more circumspect you are on this, because you want to
try to get a bigger tent for the party.

The lower down you are in the polls, the more desperate you become.
And, also, listen, I don`t want to just say that for -- I think Ted Cruz
and Bobby Jindal, they have -- they believe this. I think it`s political,
yes, but they also have beliefs on this. And 40 percent of the country is
still not all in on...

MATTHEWS: Well, 60 percent for, 40 against.


MATTHEWS: But how do you pull it back?

FEEHERY: I don`t know how you pull it back. I don`t know. I think
Bobby Jindal talks about getting rid of the court. That`s kind of -- he`s
flippant and it`s ridiculous.

You see this desperation. And I have never seen an issue move this


FEEHERY: President Obama had the same position.


MATTHEWS: Did you see the crowd? I mean, I know everybody goes for
applause lines. But he`s in some kind of dinette or some kind of room and
Jindal is saying, we got to get rid of the Supreme Court. There was no
applause. People know we need the Supreme Court.


CORN: When Ted Cruz gets out there and says this is -- America
doesn`t accept this, this is bad for America, he is speaking for like the
guys that were on the island, the Japanese soldiers after World War II.

He`s speaking for people who are looking backwards. But this tide is
moving. More people in the party like John here knows that this is not
going to change.

MATTHEWS: OK. Let me -- but those Japanese guys on the island didn`t
get to the newspapers that morning.

OK, let`s take a look. Here is Jeb Bush, who always, despite his
efforts to move hard right, you never really believe him because of moments
like this. He`s trying to move the party now beyond the fighting,
including the internal fighting we were talking about. Here is Jeb
campaigning in Nevada over the weekend trying to go forward.


JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think now we need to focus on
two things. How do we create an environment where people aren`t
discriminated against, where we respect people`s commitment to long-term
loving relationships and where we also allow people to act on their
religious conscience?


MATTHEWS: Can somebody be nominated by the Republican Party, your a
party, with a view that is tolerant and accepting of gay marriage, as he
just was there? Can Jeb win with that point of view?

FEEHERY: I think he can win with the idea that it`s settled law,
let`s move on. I think he can win with that, without necessarily being
that comfortable with the whole idea, but settled law, the Supreme Court
has spoken. Let`s move on to talk about other issues and then the idea of
allowing churches to continue to operate.


MATTHEWS: The Catholic Church.


FEEHERY: The Catholic Church.


MATTHEWS: No, you can`t make the church recognize it.

FEEHERY: Well, yes, I know, but there is a lot of concern about that
amongst churchgoers, including people in the Catholic Church.

MATTHEWS: Yes. I know. I think he`s become -- he`s a converted
Catholic and he`s so Catholic and so religious and such a good family man,
I think he has some credibility on this one.

CORN: I think that`s right.

MATTHEWS: And I think -- anyway, meanwhile, the religious base sounds
like it`s gearing up for World War III on this issue. Let`s watch some of
this stuff.


level of what`s called discrimination for a new level of discrimination
against people of faith?

this ruling has happened, Hillary Clinton and others on the left are going
to be going after our First Amendment religious liberty rights. I think
there`s an all-out assault by the left on religious liberty rights.

RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Because that`s the design.
There is an all-out effort here to water down, dilute, if they could, just
eliminate Christianity as a dominant cultural religious and dare I say
political force. That`s the target.


MATTHEWS: The underwater walrus is talking to guys and the women in
their cars trying to make a buck today. They`re out in their cars on
weekdays. He`s talking to them between 12:00 and 3:00 on a weekday.

And they`re trying to make a buck. And they`re listening to this --
this point of view. Does he really think that the people in their cars
working for a living, making a buck, good people out there, does he think
they think that Christianity is going to be outlawed? What is he talking

CORN: Well, I think some of them do. I think some of them -- I think
the right...

MATTHEWS: They`re working guys. These aren`t people sitting around
with -- these are hardworking, and they believe that? I don`t think so.


CORN: Not them. But the conservative base has been fed this right-
wing paranoia about Obama, about gay marriage and everything for eight
years now.

And so it`s not about gay marriage. There is always a secret agenda,
the left always wants something else. They want to undermine Christianity.
How many Christian denominations support gay marriage? Many do now. So,
this isn`t about undermining Christianity.


MATTHEWS: Let me tell you something about church.

CORN: But he`s fueling paranoia.

MATTHEWS: If you`re late for a mass in Washington, you can`t get a
seat. The churches are filled. This idea that churches are dying, that
they`re disappearing and that the government is outlawing them is on its
face absurd.

CORN: Yes, and so is that Obama is a Muslim, that he`s a socialist
dictator, and all that crap. But you get these e-mails all day long.

MATTHEWS: Are you worried about our religion being outlawed, being


FEEHERY: I`m not worried about the state outlawing religion.

I do think that many church leaders are concerned about this ruling
and think it`s going the wrong way. And I think they have a legitimate
right to have that concern.


MATTHEWS: Well, they disagree with it.


FEEHERY: And I think you have to respect those opinions.

MATTHEWS: I disagree with Citizens United.

CORN: Yes.

MATTHEWS: And I disagree with the gun decisions of the court, that
everybody should have a gun. I think some of those decisions are -- well,
I will talk about it at the end of the show. I`m teasing the end of the
show, because this court...

CORN: Good job.

MATTHEWS: ... is not reliable if you`re a progressive. I can tell
you that.

David Corn and John Feehery, and I know your names, and I don`t have
to read them.


MATTHEWS: Up next, we`re learning more about just how those two
convicted killers broke out of that prison in New York in the first place.

David Sweat, the inmate, shot and captured, there he is, by policemen
yesterday, is now talking, which is fascinating, about how he got out and
everything. Stay tuned for that and those tidbits.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.



GOV. ANDREW CUOMO (D), NEW YORK: This was "Cool Hand Luke" meets
"Shawshank Redemption."

You had a worker who falls in love with one or two of the men,
believes they are going to escape, kill her husband, and then live happily
ever after.



That was New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, of course, who will be
overseeing a complete top-to-bottom review of just how those two murderers,
Richard Matt and David Sweat, could escape from a New York state maximum
security prison and remain on the loose for weeks, three weeks.

Richard Matt was shot and killed by a U.S. border agent on Friday.
David Sweat was shot and taken into custody just yesterday. According to
authorities, the pair used pepper to avoid detection by the bloodhounds
searching for them, the same tactic used in the classic film "Cool Hand


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: You want to see something really funny?


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Well, you go on in there and you get me chili
powder, and pepper and curry and the like, a lot of it, all right?




MATTHEWS: Well, I think the idea was to throw the dogs off.

Anyway, authorities say Sweat is now talking and prosecutors want to
know how much help the two inmates may have received from inside the


apples in the bunch, and we need to weed those out.

I think how business is conducted on a daily basis is going to change.
I look forward to working with the governor. I look forward to working
with the inspector general to make a determination on what changes need to
be made.


MATTHEWS: Looks like Senator Bob Kerrey there.

Anyway, Joyce Mitchell, who worked in the prison tailor shop, remains
in custody and has pled not guilty to charges, including felony, promoting
prison contraband. And prison guard Gene Palmer was in court today charged
with promoting prison contraband, tampering with physical evidence, and
official misconduct generally. He remains free on bail.

Joining us right now with the latest from Constable, New York, is
NBC`s John Yang.

John, let me ask you about this. What can they get from this guy they
caught, and what would be the joy of him telling them anything? I mean, he
is going to go into solitary for awhile. What is their negotiating
strength here?

JOHN YANG, NBC CORRESPONDENT: That`s a really good question, Chris.

This is the field where they took him down last night. He apparently
has been in a talkative mood. His condition has been upgraded to serious.
He has had no surgery. They are not telling us any other details of his
treatment, but the governor -- Governor Andy Cuomo has been saying that he
told them that he split from Matt five days ago because Matt was slowing
him down. Apparently, he had blisters.

He may have been sick from drinking bad water. He also has told
investigators, according to Governor Cuomo, that the plan was to drive to
Mexico. The three of them were going to drive to Mexico and, as the
governor says, apparently live happily ever after.

What is his advantage to talking? He`s already sentenced to life in
prison without the possibility of parole. The district attorney, Andrew
Wylie, said that he`s going to be in solitary for a very long time and
really is not -- it is a good question, what leverage do they have with
him? What is in it for him to tell the story, which they desperately would
love to hear, about how all this happened, what help he got from inside the
prison, what help he got -- may have gotten from outside the prison?

As they conduct this review, the FBI, as NBC News has learned, is also
looking into possible irregularities in that prison, as they do a top-to-
bottom review. A lot of things have come out about the practices there,
employees going out without -- in and out without being screened, without
their bags being checked.


YANG: And two of the guard towers unarmed, unmanned during the
overnight hours -- Chris.

MATTHEWS: Wow. By the way, that`s great reporting all this time,
John. Thank you so much.

By the way, those cows have come up to you from behind and have moved
off to the right. They have heard enough. They got all the information
they wanted tonight.


MATTHEWS: Thank you, my friend, my colleague...

YANG: They`re tired of it.

MATTHEWS: ... for joining us from -- from Constable, New York.
Anyway, that`s John Yang in the field there, anyway, where the guy was
taken into custody, David Sweat.

Anyway, up next, so much for being a lame-duck president. Don`t you
think about it? With a week like none other in his presidency, President
Obama not only proved he`s still relevant. He secured his legacy. It`s
been a heck of a week, so fast, it`s been hard to absorb. But we are going
to absorb it in the next five minute, when we get back here.

What is going on with this guy right now and his role in the history

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.



A wildfire in Washington State is partially contained, but it
destroyed hundreds of homes and consumed 3,000 acres. Hundreds of people
were forced to evacuate. A Coast Guard helicopter made a hard landing
during a training exercise in San Francisco. No injuries there.

And a New Jersey man is under arrest for allegedly plotting to travel
to Syria to join ISIS.

And a U.S. official says nuclear talks with Iran will extend past a
self-imposed deadline. However, negotiators are hoping to complete a deal
during the current round of talks -- now back to HARDBALL.


entering the fourth quarter. Interesting stuff happens in the fourth
quarter, and I`m looking forward to it.



Welcome back to HARDBALL. That was the president, of course, in his
year-end press conference -- well, his year-end press conference last
December, predicting what was coming, he hoped, this year.

At the beginning of last week, however, much of President Obama`s
domestic agenda was in doubt, but, by Friday, everything had changed,
capping off an historic week of victories in what he called the fourth
quarter of his presidency and proving that he`s anything but a lame-duck.

He helped facilitate a blunt decision about race after the tragedy in
South Carolina. And we saw a new bipartisan consensus on the Confederate
Flag, we hope. And then the president won Senate approval of the bill
giving him fast track authority to advance his trade agenda after a brutal
fight on Capitol Hill with the Democrats mainly. And after a key vote was
finished, the president was caught embracing Vice President Joe Biden there
in a moment of victory after the Oval Office.

By the way, that was not a photo-op. That was an accident they caught
that picture.

The next day, the Supreme Court upheld the Affordable Care Act,
validating President Obama`s key domestic achievement, after years of
uncertainty after -- about its fate. Once again, a triumphant president
and his team were captured after another big win.

And here is the president.


50 votes in Congress to repeal or weaken this law, after a presidential
election based in part on preserving or repealing this law, after multiple
challenges to this law before the Supreme Court, the Affordable Care Act is
here to stay.


MATTHEWS: And again on Friday, in a 24-hour period, a landmark
decision by the court. Again, it delivered yet another victory for the
president and his allies on same-sex marriage, marriage equality.


days like this, when that slow steady effort is rewarded with justice that
arrives like a thunderbolt. It`s a victory for gay and lesbian couples who
have fought so long for basic civic rights.


MATTHEWS: Well, there is no question President Obama is on something
of a roll right now, historic roll.

On the roundtable tonight, we`re talking about April Ryan is White
House correspondent for American Urban Radio Networks, Howard Fineman is
global editor of "The Huffington Post", and Ruth Marcus is opinion writer
with "The Washington Post".

I want to start with you, Ruth, because you covered Washington, we all
covered Washington. But the processes do not always work. And yet, I get
the feeling that the Supreme Court follows election returns, it follows the
American culture, it obeys the culture base, at least in the middle with
people like Anthony Kennedy. They are not oblivious to what the American
people value.

RUTH MARCUS, THE WASHINGTON POST: They are not oblivious and they`re
concerned also, many of the justices, the chief justice in particular,
about the court as an institution. I`ve always thought of the court having
its own internal gyroscope. It doesn`t want to tilt too far one way or
another, and get people too riled up. And so, it was a remarkable --

MATTHEWS: So, the people are for same-sex marriage.

MARCUS: You know, the court ruled --

MATTHEWS: Right? Yes or no?

MARCUS: The people are for same-sex marriage.

MATTHEWS: And the court is for it.

MARCUS: And the court is for it. The court could have reached into
this issue a few years ago. I think it caught the wave at exactly the
right time.

The chief justice warned in his dissent that they were forestalling
democratic acceptance of this. I think he`s totally wrong. I think the
country, the court ruled at exactly the moment that the country is ready
for it.

MATTHEWS: You know, George Pataki once said, don`t get so far ahead
of the parade you can`t hear the music.


MATTHEWS: I`ll tell you -- I know you don`t like him, do you?

RYAN: I didn`t say that, Chris.

MATTHEWS: The way you did that. You did it with no effect.

Let me make my point, I`m not telling you who told me, but somebody
said don`t get so far ahead of the parade you can`t hear the music. I
think the court is just about a few steps ahead of most people in the case
of the flag coming down, a few steps ahead of the South Carolina white
people, but -- that`s interesting that`s what a leader is, probably, you
get ahead of the parade.

RYAN: Yes, you got to get ahead of the parade.

And the interesting thing is, this was a major week for this
administration, but they said that this, it`s not over yet. You know, they
said they still got a lot of things to do.

And one thing I remember, I talked to President Obama going to Selma
and I asked him are we post-racial, are we post-Obama? He said, you know,
April, he said, I don`t want to, you know, look at my presidency as
something to equate to what is it, emancipation proclamation, voting rights
or the Civil Rights Act. He said, but what I`m here to do is close the
remaining gaps.

And that`s what we`re seeing right now, him trying to close the
remaining gaps and one thing I was told by administration official over the
weekend, they still have got a lot of work to do and it`s not over yet.



MATTHEWS: So who doesn`t?


FINEMAN: But he in particular among --

MATTHEWS: That`s my sport.

FINEMAN: -- among presidents.

MARCUS: So, he doesn`t play anymore.

FINEMAN: Yes. But I`m going to use a basketball analogy here. He`s
like the guy on the team who`s really not that flashy most of the time.


FINEMAN: But who gets in there and works hard, he gets the rebounds,
he doesn`t miss the open shots. At the end of the game, he scored 24
points and has nine rebounds and five assists, and you`re not quite sure
how he does it.

MATTHEWS: You don`t notice --

FINEMAN: That`s Barack Obama. He -- I`ve always thought of him and
from conversations know him to be a guy who takes the long view, who
doesn`t get too high, doesn`t get too low and seizes the opportunities when
they`re there and knows how to ride the wave. I ascribe that to Hawaii.
You know, he`s a body surfer, so he knows how to get on that wave. He
knows just the right time --

MATTHEWS: Why do we end up --

FINEMAN: His persistence has paid off here.

MATTHEWS: Why do we have this conversation every couple years about
this guy?

FINEMAN: Because --

MATTHEWS: But we don`t have the conversation most of the time. Most
of the time, he`s very frustrating, because he`s so passionate in public.

FINEMAN: Because he doesn`t care --

RYAN: He`s cool as a cucumber, he`s as cool as a cucumber but he`s
very analytical. And you never know -- I mean, you can`t figure out, he
will call your bluff all the time. He is as cool as a cucumber and you can
watch him and you never know what --

MATTHEWS: Now that you talk about cool hand Luke here.

No, seriously. How did he get David Boies and Ted Olson to bring that
case to court so effectively as these two, it`s bipartisan, and how did
they find Anthony Kennedy, this guy who believed in the Lawrence case, who
believe in the liberty clause and all that stuff, who totally believed --


MARCUS: I want to say something about this.

FINEMAN: One thing he did on gay rights is that he stopped defending.
He ordered the Justice Department to stop defending the Defense of Marriage
Act. It wasn`t a big grand thing, as I recall. They just stopped doing

MARCUS: It was a very controversial decision and the right decision
for the country and administration but, you know, he has not been, other
than that, and that was a big move, the gay marriage victory was a victory
for, in my view the country, but not necessarily a Barack Obama-led

RYAN: What he did two years back --


RYAN: And he believes in all America having equality. That`s what he

MATTHEWS: OK. The roundtable is staying with us.

And up next, from cool to red hot. Is there room in the Republican
presidential field for this big guy? Chris Christie, he`s getting in the
race tomorrow, a little late, but he`s getting in. This is interesting --
a late entry that might be a lot of fun.

The place for politics coming back.

FINEMAN: Just thought he doesn`t do it.


MATTHEWS: We`ve got some new poll numbers in the 2016 general
election. And for that, we check the HARDBALL scoreboard.

According to the FOX News poll, Hillary Clinton and Jeb Bush are all
tied up, 43-all. That`s what I think it might end up, anyway, if they`re
both in it. Hillary will.

And Clinton, by the way, holds one-point lead over Marco Rubio, 45-44
there. Against Rand Paul, Clinton is up by four. It`s Clinton, Paul, 46-
42. She has a five-point lead over Dr. Ben Carson 46-41.

And Clinton lead grows to six against a trio of Republicans starting
with Scott Walker. She leads Walker 47-41. She`s ahead of Cruz 48-42.
She`s leading Carly Fiorina, 45-39. Wow is that close?

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with the roundtable, April, Howard, and Ruth, of

New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, as I said, is battling low poll
numbers back in New Jersey, and some of his top aides are facing charges in
the George Washington Bridge scandal. But none of that is stopping him
from formally announcing his candidacy for president tomorrow.

Among the many challenges for Christie`s campaign is his
characteristic bluntness, of course, which has festered the -- or fostered
the perception that he`s bully to some. A Monmouth University poll last
month found that 69 percent of New Jersey voters do not believe Christie
has the right temperament to be president.

In a preview of his campaign, Christie released a video to mitigate
that perception, in which he describes himself and his blunt style as a
product of his outspoken Sicilian mother.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Did I stay on topic? Are you
stupid? On topic. On topic.

Next question. Thank you all very much, and I`m sorry for the idiot
over there.

After you graduate from law school, you conduct yourself like that in
the courtroom, your rear end is going to get thrown in jail, idiot.

It`s people raise their voices and yell and scream like you that are
dividing this country. We`re here to bring the country together, not to
divide it.

What`s her name?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s her name, guys? Real quick, because the
governor is talking.

What is it? Gail. Talk to Gail.

CHRISTIE: Hey, Gail, you know what? First off, it`s none of your
business. I don`t ask you where you send your kids to school. Don`t
bother me about where I send mine.

But I understand that for someone like you, it`s never enough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, that`s not true.

CHRISTIE: It`s never enough.

If what you want to do is put on a show and giggle every time I talk,
well, then I have no interest in answering your question.

You know, Tom, you must be the thinnest skinned guy in America.

If she wants to get on a plane and come here to New Jersey, and ask me
if she wants to examine me and review my medical history, I`ll have a
conversation with her about that. Until that time, she should shut up.

So, listen, you want to have the conversation later, I`m happy to have
it, bubby. But until that time, sit down and shut up.


MATTHEWS: So, if you`re riding across the country all alone at
midnight, you probably want to listen to that guy as a radio shock jock.
How about president of the United States?

FINEMAN: Well, I love the fact he`s explaining her character because
he`s half Sicilian.

MATTHEWS: That`s the cover story.

FINEMAN: So, that`s the defense, so that means he`s basically running
a sopranos campaign.

RYAN: Oh, my gosh.

MATTHEWS: So environmental.

FINEMAN: All right. So, if you want -- if you want Vladimir Putin`s
head in a bowling ball bag, he`s your guy.

MATTHEWS: A lot of people are going to be thinking it`s their head.


MARCUS: I`m a proud Jersey girl from Chris Christie`s hometown, and
let me tell you, that is not going to play -- it doesn`t play that well
inside New Jersey as that poll showed. It`s not going to play well in Iowa
or New Hampshire.

MATTHEWS: Why did it play for a while?

MARCUS: Because people crave authenticity. So, in the beginning, the
first couple times you hear him tell it like it is, it`s really attractive.
When you string it all together with the sit down and shut ups, really,
people in America, the real America outside New Jersey, sorry, my
compatriots, don`t like it too much. I think it`s going to -- he`ll keep
it down, and then he`ll get rattled and he`ll let it show and it will come
back to bite him.

FINEMAN: He`s proud of it. What do you mean? He`s proud.

MATTHEWS: He said you`re going to put my box in your store and you`re
going to like it. I mean, a bully. That`s what it seems like.

RYAN: He is. He`s been running for president for three years and
it`s one thing to say tell it like it is. He needs to be more euphemistic.

MATTHEWS: But he ain`t going to change.

RYAN: Yes, that`s the problem. It`s playing out words.

MATTHEWS: OK. Years ago, my wife, a TV station in town here, Channel
7. Channel 7 hired a big heavy set guy, overweight guy, and he used to
tell jokes. So, after a while, they said, lose weight and stop telling
jokes. They hired that guy and now they`re saying don`t be that guy. How
can he change?

RYAN: Well, Chris Christie lost --

MATTHEWS: How can he change?

RYAN: He needs somebody to get --


FINEMAN: Whoa, whoa.

RYAN: You know how he does debate prep? He needs someone to do a
prep every day, because he`s a loose cannon.

MATTHEWS: Is there another Chris Christie besides that guy?

MARCUS: You know what, you can lose your weight, but you can`t lose
your personality. And people`s personalities don`t change.

FINEMAN: As Ruth knows, New Jersey in the legislature are very tough.
He was liked for a while because he took on some people.

MATTHEWS: He got reelected.

FINEMAN: He took on some people.

RYAN: Washington is tough. There are a lot of towns that are tough.
That doesn`t excuse that.


MATTHEWS: Here`s the video the Christie campaign put out today. This
is up today, the Christie campaign put out this.


CHRISTIE: I know if my mom were still alive, she would say to me, I
taught you that in a trusting relationship, you don`t hold anything back.
And if you`re going to run for president of the United States, and you`re
going to ask these people for their vote, that is the single most trusting
thing they can do as a citizen, is to give you their support. So, you
better tell them exactly what you`re thinking and exactly what you`re
feeling. And when you ask about my moral compass, that`s it. That`s it.


MATTHEWS: I want to see him up against Donald Trump in that first
debate. That could be wild stuff. Look out, Jeb.

April Ryan, Howard Fineman, Ruth Marcus, thank you all.

We`ll be right back after this.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with a stunning observation I think
it is that the U.S. Supreme Court knows this country. It`s not just
following the election returns as Mr. Dooley prophesized a century ago.
It`s following the American character.

Americans want it their way. They want the person they want -- pick
the house, pick the car, pick the church, pick the vacation, pick the
clothes, pick the restaurant, pick what they want on the menu, the bigger
the menu, the better. Pick the president. That`s us.

And here`s what this is giving us right now. You pick your partner
when it comes to marriage. You do. You can buy all the guns you want no
matter who you are or how nuts you are. You can spend all the money you
get your hands on and, if you want to get involved in an election, spend it
there. Who`s counting?

It`s libertarian as hell, and it fits the American mindset, the "leave
me alone" attitude, the "get out of my face" attitude. And for those men
and women on the Supreme Court also believe in something very conservative.
They believe in leaving things alone, that that the government has
established -- health care, Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act.

As the wildly conservative mind, George F. Will, once noted, the
American people are conservative. They want to conserve the New Deal, or
like the guy who said "I think the government shouldn`t get involved with
Medicare". I think that`s what the Supreme Court just said about
Obamacare. Leave it alone.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


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