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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, July 1st, 2015

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Date: July 1, 2015
Guest: Katrina Vanden Heuvel, John Stanton, Rick Wilson, Arne Duncan,
Casey Davis


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

out, we knew we had to change the venue.

HAYES: First, Colorado, now Wisconsin. As we go live to another
massive rally for Bernie Sanders. Does Hillary Clinton have an actual
electoral challenge on her hands?

Plus, the Republican problem with more great polling news for Donald

into the country. It`s far worse than anybody knows.

HAYES: Then, Joy Reid reporting live from the scene of the South
Carolina church fire.

And as the resistance to marriage equality continues in pockets around
the nation, my interview with the Kentucky county clerk who would rather to
go jail than issue same-sex marriage licenses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think they have the right to choose however they
choose. But I do too. I have the same right.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

At this very hour we are anticipating what is likely to be the single
largest noncompulsory campaign event of the 2016 presidential election. I
am speaking, of course, of Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders appearing as you
see in a packed stadium arena in Madison, Wisconsin. Sanders, of course,
coming fresh off of a massive event in Denver, 7,000 people in attendance
for that. They had to move the venue as you see the camera pan across.

Bernie Sanders going to speak from this venue in Madison tonight.
Event organizers anticipating possibly as many as 10,000 people. That, of
course, would make it the largest event of the campaign cycle so far with
the notable exception of the 11,000 who showed up for Ted Cruz` event at
Liberty. Of course, attendance there was mandatory.

Bernie Sanders is now polling within striking distance of Hillary
Clinton in New Hampshire. The latest polling having him only 8 points
behind. He is fundraising from the grassroots at a clip very few other
candidates in the race can match. Although he will be deluged by the $45
million Hillary Clinton is expected to post in this quarter.

But people are starting to ask whether Bernie Sanders represents a
quite serious challenge to Hillary Clinton in the Democratic primary.

Joining me now from the Sanders rally in Madison is MSNBC political
reporter Alex Seitz-Wald.

And, Alex, it looks like -- it looks like quite a crowd.

quite a crowd, Chris. They are chanting, "feel the Bern" behind me.

This is the venue that you expect for a major party nominee in October
of a general election. Not in June or July of the year before an election,
and certainly not for a candidate who is a self-described socialist running
against the strongest nominee in any party`s history that`s not an
incumbent, not vice president.

So, there`s something happening here. I mean, people are very fired
up. They say Bernie is the only guy who`s talking -- the only one talking
about their issues. And the name that I`m reading a couple of times,
Barack Obama -- saying that maybe, just maybe Bernie Sanders can do the
same thing that Obama did to Hillary Clinton in 2008.

HAYES: Yes, one of the early indicators of Barack Obama`s potential
in that nominating contest was that he was drawing massive crowds. I
remember covering his announcement in a freezing cold day in Springfield,
Illinois, which drew thousands. There were thousands who came out. I
remember one event specifically in Austin, which again, it wasn`t on the
campaign trail per se at that point. It wasn`t on people`s radar screen.
But when 8,000 or 10,000 people showed up, it got the political world
thinking, something is going on.

The reason we`re looking at back to back 8,000 plus rallies for Bernie
Sanders, there is -- we don`t know how big it is. We don`t know whether
they show up, there`s a long way. But there is some base that is very,
very committed to this candidate. It is still very early.

SEITZ-WALD: Yes, that`s right. And Hillary Clinton has yet to prove
that she can generate this kind of massive grassroots support. She had
about 5,500 people at her kickoff rally on Roosevelt Island in New York,
her home town, her home state. The crowd was fired up. They were very

But this is a little bit different. This is something that is totally
grassroots, uncontrolled, people just coming together. This event was
coming together. We`re seeing it across the country.

He did it in Burlington with his kickoff rally, 5,000 there at the
lake. In Denver, another 5,000 there, 3,000 in Minneapolis, 1,000 people
stood outside. They couldn`t even get in. And on Monday, he`s got an
event in Portland, Maine. They just yesterday announced they had to move
it because there were too many. They`re moving to a bigger arena.

So, there`s definitely a lot of enthusiasm out here. I think none of
us would have expect this a few months ago. I mean, the fact we are here
in a giant venue for Bernie Sanders running for president speaks to the
level of interest there is, an enthusiasm to an alternative to Hillary
Clinton in the grassroots of the Democratic base.

HAYES: All right. Alex Seitz-Wald live there in Madison where Bernie
Sanders is scheduled to speak in just a little bit -- thank you very much.

Joining me now is Katrina Vanden Heuvel, editor and publisher of "The
Nation" magazine. "The Nation" featuring on its fourth coming issue --


HAYES: -- a cover interview with Bernie Sanders.

VANDEN HEUVEL: "Bernie Sanders Speaks".

HAYES: All right. So let`s put all this in perspective.


HAYES: I do think, look, even if wasn`t Bernie Sanders, if there was
a Republican candidate whose politics I had no affinity for who was drawing
crowds like that, I would say, well, something is going on. You know what
I mean?

VANDEN HEUVEL: Alex just said there is something.

HAYES: Right.

VANDEN HEUVEL: There is something going on in this country. It`s
five, six years after the financial crisis, a few years after occupy, there
is a hunger in this country, Chris, I think, for a passionate populist
message. Bernie Sanders has attempted into that.

I don`t think even he understood what he would unleash, the buzz, the
polls, the crowds. But he is speaking to something in the psyche of
Americans when he talks about how billionaires are controlling our
politics, the inequality, you know, that we want to take back our

HAYES: Let me say, we`re looking now at people standing in line. I
have worked as a political adviser and tried to get people to come to
stuff, OK? I saw footage earlier of, earlier in this cycle when Rick
Santorum was at an event with one other person. I`ve been in rooms with
politicians with one other person. It is hard to get people to come to
stuff, OK? So, this is --

VANDEN HEUVEL: That he`s been able to do this. One thing that
strikes me, you know, Bernie Sanders, many people are meeting Bernie
Sanders for the first time. He didn`t do "Meet the Press" until after
Chuck Todd became host recently. McCain lives on that show. He has a cot

The national media has ignored Bernie Sanders for many years. People
are learning there`s a voice that deserves to be heard and they`re looking
beyond the labels.

HAYES: So, here`s the question, right? For a long time, people
wanted Elizabeth Warren to run. There was this activist base that wanted
her to run. It became clear she wasn`t. Then it became clear of who`s
going to inherit that mantle? And in some ways, Bernie Sanders makes
perfect sense. He was talking about those issues before Elizabeth Warren
was ever elected, right?

VANDEN HEUVEL: I think one strength he will draw upon and he does in
"The Nation" interview is the consistency. Whether it has been opposition
to DOMA or it is opposition to unfettered surveillance for the fight
against inequality, for participatory democracy in a real sense. Bernie
Sanders`s been there. And I think he can give it a 21 century message.

He also in "The Nation" interview, there`s talk about how he doesn`t
have relations in the African-American community. He hasn`t been speaking
out. Until now I would say in "The Nation" interview, he talks about
policing. He talks about civil rights issues. He of course comes back to
the fact, 50 percent unemployment among young African-Americans.

But he is tough on the militarization of policing in this country and
speaks forcefully to that.

HAYES: Well, if you look at this crowd, this is the issue he faces.
It is an issue that many candidates in the Democratic primary who have
captured a certain part of the liberal grassroots, which is forging the
multiracial coalition that can really catapult them.

Barack Obama was a very special kind of candidate, because he was both
the kind of insurgent candidate but he was able to expand out, right,
stitch together this coalition. Bernie Sanders has to do that if he`s
going to be serious, because right now, let`s just keep this in mine. He
is 60 points behind the national polls of Hillary Clinton. She is a
massively formidable candidate.

VANDEN HEUVEL: But, Chris, he is a classic insurgent candidate.


HAYES: Right. But they tend to rocket up and then down in --

VANDEN HEUVEL: I think we will see a continuing surge. More and more
people will get to meet him and know him.

I will say on another issue which is so vital for the 21st century,
the climate crisis issue. "The Nation" has launched something called the
climate pledge. A lot of universities` pension funds, companies are
divesting from fossil fuel companies. We`ve asked candidates in 2016 not
to accept or solicit any money from fossil fuel companies. Bernie was the
only Democrat running, Martin O`Malley and Linc Chafee said they`re against
climate crisis --

HAYES: But he sign on.

VANDEN HEUVEL: He signed on.

HAYES: All right. Katrina Vanden Heuvel, always a pleasure. Thank


HAYES: All right. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie got some good
news and bad news today on what is his first full day of campaigning since
he officially announced his presidential run yesterday. The good news was
that Christie became the first GOP candidate to win an endorsement from a
sitting Republican governor. The bad news, the endorsement came from this
guy, Maine`s Paul LePage who "Politico" dubbed America`s craziest governor.

LePage, like Christie, is one of the most unpopular governors in the
country. He is now facing possible impeachment proceedings for allegedly
withholding state funds from a school for at risk children unless it
withdrew a job offer to a political foe. The endorsement came at Becky`s
diner in Portland where he described Christie who campaigned hard as a
blunt straight talker.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: For me in the first full day of
my presidential campaign, to be able to come up here and receive an
endorsement from somebody who knows what it is like to run a blue state,
knows what it is like to make tough decisions, knows what it is like to
engage in hand to hand combat to get thing done for the people that elect
you, to get an endorsement from Paul LePage today is an incredible honor


HAYES: Joining me now, John Stanton, Washington bureau chief for
"BuzzFeed News".

John, I have to say from a branding perspective, I guess it is kind of
a peas in the pod, like we`re tough talking eastern Republican governors in
blue states. But I mean, this guy is absolutely as politically toxic, Paul
LePage as politically toxic as they come in the gubernatorial ranks right

JOHN STANTON, BUZZFEED NEWS: Yes. And they`re kind of peas in the
same pod of being nailed for having scandals and trying to go out against
their political foes, you know? So, I think that`s a bit of a problem.

And politically, it makes me question, I don`t know, do these people
do any vetting of him? Did they figure out he`s got this problem before
they decided to take Chris Christie with bridgegate faced similar
accusations? He is now getting an endorsement from a guy who`s -- it is
all very weird to me. I don`t understand.

HAYES: This is a really important point. They`re basically parallel
in the sense of, in both cases, in the case of Paul LePage with threatening
to revoke funding from the school, unless a political rival had a job offer
withdrawn. That is precisely the same asymmetric misuse or allegations of
the gubernatorial office`s power to pursue a petty political vendetta that
is precisely the issue that Chris Christie faces in bridgegate.

STANTON: Yes. I mean, even if you give them both the benefit of the
doubt and say none of this happened, they never did anything bad, the fact
that they`re both facing these accusations, you might say why don`t we wait
to have this endorsement six months down the line or a little further into
the campaign. But, you know, his campaign seems to be, for a guy who has
seemed to be running for however many years now, it seems a little bit rush
asked off the cuff maybe, you know?

Now, we`re going to announce we`re going to run. We got this guy
giving us an endorsement who`s got scandal problems. I think it is all
very odd. I don`t understand why they`re doing this.

HAYES: Well, it also strikes as this, it strikes me that at a certain
point, they had pick of the litter. They had everyone clamoring for them,
knocking down their door. Donors begging him to run, he could have gotten
a ton of endorsements. This is where he is now. I mean, this is just like
he`s got to start building on what he has.

And what Chris Christie has right now is a governor that he campaigned
hard for who won twice with less than 50 percent of the vote who might be
facing impeachment, that`s where he is in terms of who he has to rely on
politically at this point in his career.

STANTON: I mean, you know, when you put it like that, I guess there`s
nowhere but up to go. So, it`s not necessarily a bad thing, I guess. But
yet, it`s odd. It`s very odd.

HAYES: Do you think that Trump is a problem for him? Having Trump in
this race?

STANTON: You know, I think it could be. He certainly is the guy who
wants everyone to think of him as the straight shooting blunt guy. And
Donald Trump is nothing but straight shooting and blunt. And, you know,
so, he takes up some of the oxygen.

He is also the sort of brash northeastern persona which is definitely
Christie`s thing. He eats up that persona little bit. And then it draws
attention away, having -- you know, the one thing that it could help him
with is that the bigger the field, potentially that could help Christie
push himself back into the top ranks. You know, in a couple of months, if
there`s 30 people running.

HAYES: My dream is to moderate an all eastern seaboard dialect
competition debate with Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump and Chris Christie.
That`s just putting this on the record if anyone -- if you people want to
call me, I`ll moderate any time, any place.

John Stanton, thank you very much.

STANTON: It`s good to be here.

HAYES: Still ahead, an unsung victory in one of the most successful
weeks in the Obama administration history.

Plus, the one thing that unites Jeb Bush, President Obama, and the
Republican Party of Texas.

And the runaway liability of Donald Trump on full display as he loses
yet another company`s support for comments like this.


TRUMP: The border is a disaster, Bill. People are pouring in and I
mean illegal people, illegal immigrants. They`re pouring in, 300-some-odd
thousand are in your state jails right now, according to Homeland Security.



HAYES: There`s a scandal brewing that has crossed all partisan
divide. It started when "The New York Times" told its Twitter followers to
add green peas to your guacamole. Trust us, the reaction was swift and
blunt. Presidential candidate Jeb Bush who had already voiced his dislike
of peas and guacamole on Jimmy Fallon last month succinctly tweeted, "You
don`t put peas in guacamole." While the Texas Republican Party accusing
"The New York Times" of declaring, quote, "war on Texas" when they
suggested adding green peas on guacamole. Possibly although hyperbolic.

Even President Obama weighed in during a #askPOTUS Twitter chat today.
When asked, "Do you agree with the NY Times about putting peas in
guacamole? If yes, why?" The president responded, "Respect the NYT, but
not buying peas in guac, period. Unions, garlic, hot peppers, classic."

Now, I`ve never tried peas in guacamole. It could be delicious. I
don`t know why people are so upset or obsess with it. But we`re going to
try to settle this controversy tomorrow. During the first ever "All In the
USA" cookout, we`ll be serving up both kinds of guacamole, peas and peas
free to our guests to see which is best. You do not want to miss it.


HAYES: More huge news for Donald Trump`s presidential aspirations.
Two new polls put him in second place both nationally and in Iowa where he
is tied at second with Ben Carson. Those are at least the fourth and fist
polls since he announced, either nationwide or in an early primary state.

They pretty much make it official. Donald trump is as of this moment,
at the front of the pack in the Republican presidential race. He made a
pretty colorful campaign stop last night in New Hampshire where he is now
polling at 11 percent, just a few points behind Jeb Bush.


TRUMP: The American dream is dead but I`ll make it bigger and better
and stronger than ever before.

Oh, would China be in trouble. Oh. Oh, the poor Chinese.

Who has done more than me? I`ve employed tens of thousands of people
over my life.

It is hard to believe I`m second to Bush, because Bush is not going to
get us to the promise land, folks.

We`re stupid. Our leaders are stupid people. They are incompetent.
Did you know I had an uncle who went to MIT who was a top professor? Dr.
John Trump, a genius. It`s in my blood. I`m smart.

I see people at NBC and other networks that are so bad, I would be a
great programmer. I know what sells. Sleepy eyes Chuck Todd, you know,
"Meet the Press" dying, going down the tubes. They won`t say what a big
crowd this was. This was a record setting crowd for a house. Like record.


HAYES: Performances like that are exactly why the Republican National
Committee tried to rein in the primary process for 2016. After the 2012,
when a long and open debate season fueled some of the most marginal
candidates and turned into a kind of sort of firing squad among the front
runners, the RNC moved to reform the debate rules.

The first debate hosted by FOX News over a month from now is being
limited to the candidates who place in the top ten in the most recent
national poll. As of this moment that includes Donald Trump who is
spending most of his brand new campaign alienating the exact constituency
the GOP set out to woo after its last defeat, Hispanic voters.

In an interview last night on FOX News, Trump continued to defend his
incendiary assert that many Mexican immigrants in the U.S. are rapists, who
bring drugs and crime into the country.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS: Would you take any of that back? Or
rephrase any of it if you could?

TRUMP: No, because it`s totally accurate.

The border is a disaster, Bill. People are pouring in and I mean
illegal people. Illegal immigrants and they`re pouring in, 300 some odd
thousand are in your state jails right now according to Homeland Security.


HAYES: Responding to a Move On petition that`s gotten over 700,000
signatures, Macy`s announced it is discontinuing its work with Trump and
phasing out his men`s wear line which is an actual thing.

In a statement, Trump effectively claimed that he dumped them first.
Quote, "I have decided to terminate my relations with Macy`s because of the
pressure being put on them by outside sources. Later tweeted, for all
those who #, want to #makeAmericagreatagain, boycott Macy`s, they are work
on border security and stopping illegal immigration."

Joining me now, Republican media consultant Rick Wilson.

OK, Rick.


HAYES: I don`t know. I`m Reince Priebus or Jeb Bush, I hire you.
This is what you do. You dispense political advice to Republican
politicians. What do you tell them to do about this situation?

WILSON: Day drinking.


WILSOIN: No. Look. You`ve got to bring Donald Trump into this
process in a way that takes him out of the celebrity mode and into the
political mode, because this is a guy who right now believes that he can
float above the mechanics and the grit and the grime of regular campaign
and rely on the press being lazy and being easily baited into covering
ridiculous statements every day. And you have to drag hill to the point
where he has to go do the work, where you have to do the mechanical things
in a campaign, show up to town hall meetings and show up to sit down with
some guy in New Hampshire at a diner for an hour to ask for his support.

HAYES: But how do you make him do that though?

WILSON: Look, this is not an easy question. This guy right now,
because of a very, look, I get that he`s good television. I get that he`s
fun you guys to cover.

HAYES: No, no. Come on. That`s not, come on.

WILSON: On the other hand, Chris, the minute you guys start
complaining that, oh, we never talk about big issues, we never get on
substance, we never talk about policy, Donald Trump exhibit A on why this
country never has serious discussions about meaningful issues.

HAYES: Let me tell you something.

WILSON: So, this is the media`s fault in a lot of ways. You guys
have to take some credit for this, or some blame for this, rather.

HAYES: Let me say two things about this. One is, what he said about
Mexican immigrants was I thought pretty odious. What he is saying about
the border and illegal aliens pouring into the country, that is a fairly
standard view among a lot of people in the Republican Party. It`s a view
that is a big obstacle to getting immigration reform through, the belief
that there is an influx. That influx is fundamentally a kind of invasion
that people bring crime with them.

I`ve had Republican principals like Jan Brewer, other folks, say
precisely that. I mean, this is not a crazy view. So, in that respect he
does have tangible effects in terms of how immigration policy goes.

The second thing I`ll say is this. One of the unintended consequences
of this cut-off rule is that you now have to maintain a certain national
level in the polls to get on the debate stage which ends up, yes,
essentially giving him a kind of celebrity premium as opposed to doing
nitty-gritty work in an early state.

WILSON: Look, the debate rules were the correct decision but you have
an outside force now that has built-in name ID from 20 plus years on
television as a celebrity. And this is the sort of thing where at some
point, there`s going to have to be some leadership at the national level
where they look at this thing and say is this person a serious candidate?
Or is he here as a fluke and an outlier and do we really want to turn
national debates. You may not agree with their philosophies but you have
to say, Chris, there are four or five very, very substantive serious people
in this race who are the "A" tier candidates who want a serious national
discussion and Donald Trump is never going to be one of them.

This guy as I put it today. This is like the spittle fleck populism,
and this is leadership by bellowing. I`m sorry, as a Republican that`s not
the sort of thing that I want to post up against Hillary Clinton. If write
Hillary`s team and I had a billion dollars to throw at somebody, I would
pay Donald Trump to do exactly what he`s doing now.

HAYES: Yes, and you`re right. I mean, the fascinating thing to me,
when he does get on the big debate stage which seems all but inevitable,
can you pull him into doing what you`re go saying, right? Which is, what`s
your tax plan? Like, do you know anything? Have you read anything? Is
there an actual agenda here and will that matter in the debate?

No, I`m serious. It seems like that he can really be exposed in that

WILSON: Well, this is the kind of moment where my friend Hugh Hewitt
and some of other folks at these first debates are really going to have
some stones and hold Donald Trump to account, and not let him get away, I`m
sure the Chinese -- I`ll make a huge difference. They`re going to have
stop him, they`ll have to check him hard and make sure that the debate
doesn`t turn into the Donald Trump clown show, and is instead where he has
to response to the substantive criticisms of other Republicans who have
actually thought about these issues.

HAYES: All right. Rick Wilson, I reiterate my desire to moderate a
Donald Trump, Chris Christie, Bernie Sanders debate. Thank you very much.

WILSON: Thanks.

HAYES: Up next, amid the celebration of last week`s Supreme Court
decision comes news that some county clerks are refusing to issue marriage
licenses to same sex couples. I will talk to one of those clerks, next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today is Linda Barnett`s last day as circuit clerk
in Greneda county after 24 years. She is resigning over the Supreme
Court`s decision
legalizing same-sex marriage.

issuing the license. So, it would be like I would be approving of this
lifestyle and I do not.

I just believe that the bible teaches that marriage is between a man
and a woman. And I stand on that no matter what man says, that what`s
god`s word and that`s the final authority.


HAYES: Grenada County in Mississippi still awaits its first same-sex
couple to get married, but the circuit clerk Linda Barnett would rather
resign than issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

Five days after the U.S. Supreme Court made marriage equality the law
of the land, there are several counties in the country still refusing to
follow the court`s order.

In Alabama, where a federal judge ruled today that Alabama counties
must abide by court decisions allowing gay marriage, where the governor
said following the Supreme Court decision that, quote, we will follow the
rule of law, there are still, according to Freedom to Marry, an advocacy
group for marriage equality, 17 counties not issuing marriage licenses to
same-sex couples.

Things appear so muddled in Alabama partly because the Alabama Supreme
Court on Monday issued an order that said Alabama judges are not required
to issue same-sex licenses for 25 days. According to a report from
today, a lawyer who works for Alabama Supreme Court Justice Roy Moore wrote
a letter seemingly directed at the governor, essentially scolding Governor
Bentley for saying that Alabama will obey the law.

It reads in part, quote, "public official, what will you do? Will you
stand up for the law of Alabama or for the people, for the law of god? Or
will you capitulate? Will you become complicit in the takeover by the

In Kentucky, the Courier Journal, the largest newspaper in the state,
reported Monday that clerks in at least five Kentucky counties are refusing
to issue marriage licenses to any couples to avoid having to grant them to
gay and lesbian couples to avoid having to grant them to gay and lesbian

By this morning at least two Kentucky county clerks who refused to
issue marriage licenses to anyone will resume handing them out, those
Counties are Lawrence and Montgomery County.

But clerks in Rowan, Owsley and Casey County are still holding out
with Casey
County clerk, a man named Casey Davis saying his conscience will not allow
him to issue a same-sex marriage license, that he would rather go to jail.

Joining me now is Casey Davis, the Casey County clerk in Kentucky.

And Mr. Davis, thanks for joining us.

I wonder what you think of the example set by Ms. Barnett in
Mississippi which is, her conscience says she doesn`t allow her to do her
job. Her job is to issue marriage licenses and so she resigned. Isn`t
that the honorable way to proceed?

CASEY DAVIS, CASEY COUNTY CLERK: Not in my mind`s eye, Chris.

HAYES: Why not?

DAVIS: I think that if quit at this point, then I`ve quit my belief.
I`ve quit my heart. I`ve quit what I have deeply, deeply rooted inside.
And I can`t go that direction.

HAYES: But your belief isn`t really the issue here. I mean, you play
an official function. Right now there are people gay and straight who
can`t get married. The law has been pretty definitively established. And
your job, if your conscience doesn`t allow you to do your job, you have to
get out of the way.

DAVIS: Well, my conscience will not allow me to do this. I believe
that my job when I took it and the oath that I swore to, the law said that
marriage was between one man and one woman. That`s what I held my hand to
in the oath.

I`ve always tried to treat people the same all my life. I don`t want
to ever be discriminatory to anyone. And if I`m not able to because of my
belief, my heart, my conscience, issue a same-sex marriage license then I
don`t think that I should issue to anyone. And I think that`s being fair
to everyone.


HAYES: Mr. Davis, let me stop you there. Let me first say that I
agree that it is in some senses noble that you`re not issuing to anyone.
But what isn`t fair to the people -- what isn`t fair -- your county, it
strikes me, is that there are people who want to get married in your
county. This is an important event in their life. They are dependent on
the state.

DAVIS: They can still get married in my county, Chris. They can
still get married in my county. They just have to go to another county and
get a marriage license to do that.

I am asking at this point and I`ve asked this since Monday. Actually
I`ve asked this since the 26th, Friday, when the governor sent the letter
that he sent. I`ve asked simply that he show me the same consideration
that he showed our attorney general, Jack Conway when Jack Conway said
about a year ago that what he wanted to do was because of conscience` sake,
step aside from his job and let someone else do it or put it in the
governor`s hands.

And the governor at that point, he hired outside representation to
defend the state`s constitution, which says marriage is between one man and
one woman.

HAYES: Mr. Davis, let me ask you this.

DAVIS: And I believe that I and the rest of the county clerks should
be granted the same consideration since our conscience which is on the
other side of the coin in this matter, has not allowed us to issue a
marriage license. It seems to me...

HAYES: It`s quite a different situation with the attorney general.

DAVIS: It`s a very unfair thing by a governor that has allowed the
attorney general this kind of leeway. He ought to give something to us
county clerks.

HAYES: Mr. Davis, let me ask you this, who do you answer to if people
in your county can`t get married, if you can`t do your job, who do you
answer to?

DAVIS: I have done my job for five and a half years. And in the last
three days, I`ve answered to people from all over this country. And my
answer to them is at this present time, I cannot issue any marriage

The governor, I would like to add this, too, Chris, the governor just
a few days ago said that I along with the other county clerks took an oath
that I would lay down my personal beliefs to do my job. That`s not true.
That is entirely not true.

HAYES: You took an oath to the United States constitution, didn`t

DAVIS: That would deny my personal feelings for anything, anything,
and I
did not take an oath that said I would lay my personal feelings down, my
personal beliefs down to do this job nor will I ever do that.

That oath did not, as a matter of fact, that oath said that I would do
this job to the best of my ability, so help me god. And the best of my
ability does not go beyond what my conscience will allow me to do. Do you
understand that?

HAYES: I do -- I understand what you`re saying. I think that the
authorities will have something to say about that. And I think that was it
Jesus who said render to Caesar what is Caesar`s and to god what is god`s?
This seems to me like the domain of Caesar. Casey Davis, thank you very

When we come back, breaking details on a devastating church fire in
South Carolina. We`ll go live to the scene for the latest.


HAYES: We have breaking news tonight on a fire last night at Mount
Zion AME church in Greeleyville, South Carolina. Historic black church
that was burned down in 1995 by two members of the KKK.

In an interview tonight with NBC`s Craig Melvin, South Carolina
Governor Nikki Haley said unequivocally the fire was caused by lightning


were four lightning strikes, and one of them hit the steeple of the church.
And so it burned from the top down.

CRAIG MELVIN, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDETN: So at this point, there`s no
reason to

HALEY: There is absolutely none. No.


HAYES: Now that tracks with radar images of a thunderstorm in the
area last night with lightning strikes peaking around 6:30. It corresponds
to the church pastor`s first reaction when he heard what happened.


Florence, South Carolina. And we were in a storm over there, me and my
wife, and we had to kind of wait it out to get back, a bad lightning storm.

So actually when I heard that the church was on fire, I kind of really
thought that wow, the lightning must have hit it, because they were talking
about storms all afternoon.


HAYES: But a source close to the investigation tells NBC News, he`s
not sure where the governor got her information. While there was lightning
in the area, he says, there is no confirmation it actually hit the church.

Now, last night`s fire was the seventh to occur at a predominantly
black church in the south since the attack on Emanuel AME in Charleston.
Now only three have been determined likely arsons at this point and none
has been ruled a hate

Joining me now from South Carolina, MSNBC national correspondent Joy.
And Joy, what is the scene like down there?

JOY REID, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: Well, essentially, Chris, you just
kind of encapsulated it. There is a huge disconnect tonight between
governor Nikki Haley and the local officials that we`ve been talking to
here at Mount Zion AME Church.

The governor definitively saying we saw that it was a lightning
strike. Number one, we`re not sure who the we is. We haven`t been able to
get an answer to that. And the mayor of Greeleyville as well as the state
senator representing this area and the fire chief, all of whom we spoke
with here tonight, all said the investigation is still open. It`s

In fact the fire chief told me because of the extensive damage to that
building, because the roof literally fell in, there`s so much debris inside
of it they can`t really determine yet what the cause is.

And in addition to that, the lead investigation, the lead
investigators both state and federal ATF are all saying that it is

So, I think Nikki Haley may be way ahead. It is not clear that there
is anybody marching behind her in terms of her definitive statements.

HAYES: Now, obviously the context here for this is both the fires
that we`ve reported on which again in the south, predominantly black
churches, it very hard at this point to determine whether we are seeing
something happen that doesn`t normally happen or whether the microscope of
national media attention means we are sort of he creating a category
between a bunch of particular circumstances.

Some of those fires that people have been talking about on social
media were pretty clear are not arson. We just got to be clear about what
we know and don`t know.

At the same time, obviously, this church has a real intense historical

REID: Absolutely. This church was burned to the ground in 1995 by a
Ku Klux Klan group here along with a second church, that second church
wound up sewing Macedonia Baptist and got a $37.8 million settlement.

But as you said, Chris, the context is that we have three fires that
known to be arson. One in Macon, Georgia, one in Knoxville, Tennessee, and
one in Charlotte, North Carolina one. Those three have been determined to
be arson, not necessarily hate crimes.

Then you have three more which are undetermined, one here in South
Carolina in Warrenville, not far from Charlotte. A second fire that`s also
in Tennessee. And then one in Tallahassee, which the Tallahassee one is
thought to may be electrical.

But the question that some people are asking is when is the last time
any church you heard of is burned to the ground? It`s such an unusual
circumstance. Even the ATF official who spoke with our NBC colleague said,
yeah, this is not normal.

There`s one additional fire in Ohio that has been ruled -- arson has
been ruled out, But because there were so many disparate causes, because
all of them happened within a very confined space of time between the 22nd
of June and the 27th of June, two of them on the day that President Obama
eulogized Clementa Pinckney, the state senator and reverend from here,
there`s a lot of anxiety and that anxiety is playing out here on the

Church members are nervous. People are worried. And I think that`s a
feeling that goes across the country, because again, it is unusual.

HAYES: Yeah, Joy Reid live at site of the fire at Mount Zion AME in
Greeleyville, South Carolina. Joy, always so great to have you at the site
on the road doing the reporting. Thank you very much.

REID: Thank you, Chris.

HAYES: Up next, the quiet war between New York`s governor and New
York`s City`s mayor explodes out into the open. Details ahead.


HAYES: You are looking at pictures of the newly renamed Comcast
building at 30 Rockefeller Plaza, the building I`m in right now.

And you can`t quite see it in this shot, but there`s a really sweet
little spot with a nice patch of grass down there. And tomorrow night, we
are going to have the first ever All In the USA cookout show. Be sure to
tune-in. We`re going to have special guests, hot dogs and burgers. And
we`re going to spend the hour talking about the very best of America on
this 4th of July week. Please join us.


HAYES: So, yesterday the nastiest fight in all of politics exploded
into the open in an unprecedented way. The long simmering tension between
Democratic mayor of New York City, Bill de Blasio and the Democratic
governor, Andrew Cuomo, has been building for a while.

Recently the governor knocked down the mayor`s number one priority, an
affordable housing expansion, and not only that, around the same time as
the battle was brewing in Albany, anonymous sources close to the governor
started bad-mouthing the mayor saying for example, the mayor was, quote,
"bumbling and incompetent."

Another example, speaking of mayoral control of the school system,
which after more than a decade was only extended one year for this mayor,
quote, "how did the mayor think he was going to get mayoral control? Well,
the Assembly will support me. They didn`t. The Daily News quoted a top
Cuomo administration source as saying I think he puts himself in these

Now, some reporters were reading these quotes, and they surmised that,
well, this sounded a lot like the Governor Andrew Cuomo himself.

So last week the governor was confronted with a series of questions
about whether he, himself, was talking to the press off the record as a
Cuomo official about the mayor.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor, are you the top administration official
who yesterday questioned the mayor`s Albany strategy?

ANDREW CUOMO, GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK: I said a lot of things yesterday.
I don`t know exactly what, which one you`re referring to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you anonymously criticize him? How does
that help?

CUOMO: If I don`t believe a proposal makes sense, I say that it
doesn`t make sense.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why do you say anonymously as opposed to on the

CUOMO: Sometimes we talk on the record, sometimes we talk on
background. You know, there`s just a variety. It depends on the context.
Sometimes it is a little faster to talk off the record as you know.


HAYES: So pretty clearly not in denial that he was in fact the Cuomo

Pretty clearly an implicit nod to the fact that the top Cuomo
administration source badmouthing the mayor was, you know, Cuomo himself.

Well, now Mayor de Blasio has decided to cut the games and go on the
record in front of a camera to blast Governor Cuomo.


BILL DE BLASIO, MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY: What I found was he engaged
in his own sense of strategies, his own political machinations, and what
we`ve often seen, is if someone disagrees with him openly, some kind of
revenge or vendetta follows.

And I think too many people in this state have gotten used to that
pattern and thrown a bit by it. But I think more and more of us are saying
we`re just not going to be party to that anymore.


HAYES: All right, he didn`t do just that, though, De Blasio then
summoned other reporters to a city hall office and said among other things,
that there`s been an ramp-up of state inspections of city homeless shelters
with a vigor we have never seen before that was clearly politically
motivated, Mr. de Blasio said. That revenge for some perceived slight.

Now, this is one of those cases of a political gap that consists
entirely of Mayor de Blasio telling the truth that everyone knows on the
record. As the mayor indicated, many others have put up with it. The
mayor is willing to take it no longer.


HAYES: The Obama presidency has been on such a roll over the last two
weeks, certain landmark achievements like changing a failed 54 year policy
with Cuba perhaps doesn`t get attention it might otherwise garner.

Today, the president announced American and Cuba will open embassies
in each other`s capitals later this month.

Here`s another example far more under the radar. Today, the Obama
administration has clamped down on a practice in college education that has
often turned into a big scam. In the last 10 years, for profit higher
education exploded in growth and a significant portion of that has been
akin to taking the predatory lending model and turning it into a predatory
education model.

Here`s how the scam works, you go recruit people to enroll in your for
profit college. You walk them through the loan process. You get the
federal government to loan them the money, which is immediately paid to

So, then you, the for profit college, have the money and the student.
And what happens after that is no skin off your nose. I mean, if you
educate the person well, if they get a job afterwards, who cares, you`ve
got the federal dollars.

So, your incentive once you`ve signed that person up is not to educate
them, no, no, your incentive is to go to the next student and the next
student, because if there`s one thing stockholders of for profit colleges
want to see is growth.

And that is exactly the ethos that infected too much of the for profit
college industry where student loan default rates have hit astronomical
levels. You can see there that for profit enrollment is 13 percent of all
private and public college, but for profit`s share of defaults is a
whopping 46 percent of all defaults.

And billions of federal dollars continue to flow through these places
and into the pockets of their management and shareholders as those defaults
pile up.

Now in 2009, the Obama administration proposed a pretty simple fix to
this problem, which basically said we`re going to cut off your access to
federal funds if you don`t actually have your students employed after they

But they`ve underestimated the power of the deep pocketed for profit
college industry. That industry went to war against those regulations.
Now, six years later, and after some critics have said the Department of
Education hasn`t acted forcibly enough to curtail the worst practices, the
administration enacted new regulations in which schools must demonstrate
their students are earning enough money upon graduation to pay for their
student loans or else risk losing federal aid.

Today, I asked Education Secretary Arne Duncan how that will change
the for profit college landscape going forward.


ARNE DUNCAN, SECRETARY OF EDUCATION: It is very simple. We`re saying
the debt can`t be wildly in excess of your earnings going forward. And if
the debt is manageable, that means that you`re able to pay it back, it
means you probably are doing better economically. You were able to get
skills, new skills that led to new job.

But when you just drown in debt, when it`s disproportionately high
relative to your income, again that`s untenable for the students, and
that`s untenable for all of us as taxpayers.

It`s been interesting for so long, Chris, taxpayers were on the hook,
students were on the hook, but these colleges had no skin in the game.
There is no sense of accountability there, there`s no matter about
outcomes, it was all just about enrollment, getting more students in the

And far too many vulnerable folks who were trying to do the right
thing, trying to climb the economic ladder, get to the middle class, were
taken advantage of.

HAYES: The Department of Education has announced a loan forgiveness
program. But people who have been advocating on behalf of students say
that it requires onerous steps to jump through. Why not just offer the
students of Corinthian a blanket debt forgiveness?

DUNCAN: So first of all, we were thrilled to be able to close down
Corinthian. Again, no administration has done more to challenge the status
quo despite stiff opposition from congress and some real battles in the
court. Chris, we`ve been working on this since 2009.

What we have done is we`re working with a number of students in
Corinthian through closed school discharge. We`ve also brought in a
special master. The process is not onerous to be clear.

But this is new work for us and we want to be as thoughtful as we can
with students.

At the end of the day, Chris, all of this is cleaning up a mess after
it happens. And we want to do the right thing, but we have to prevent, we
have to stop this ahead of time so more students don`t end up in this
situation. And that`s what these regulations that are going into effect
today are all about.


HAYES: You can find the full interview with the education secretary
on our Facebook page, All In with Chris.

You can also go there, or Twitter @AllInWithChris, or Chris L. Hayes,
and tell us what you love about America, because tomorrow on this July
Fourth week, we are devoting a special show to what makes this country
great. I think a lot of people are feeling pretty damn good after the last
two weeks, the last 10 days at least. So we`re going to do that tomorrow.
It`s going to be a lot of fun. That is All In for this evening.


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