updated 7/7/2015 12:09:09 PM ET 2015-07-07T16:09:09

Date: July 6, 2015
Guest: Kathleen Parker, Rick Santorum, Kevin Sullivan, Jennice Fuentes,
Jonathan Allen

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Trump means war.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

There`s nothing I love as much, the great FDR, said as a good fight.
Well, now we`ve got one. Donald Trump is not backing down on illegal
immigration. He`s daring the Republicans to go take the liberal side of
the issue.

He put out a tweet with a message from someone this week, and it said
Jeb Bush is soft on illegal immigration because his wife is Mexican. Yes,
it`s getting personal. The party that likes to pick its candidate on whose
turn it is is now in a street fight.

Howard Fineman`s the global editorial director for the HuffingtonPost,
Kathleen Parker`s a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist with "The Washington
Post," Jonathan Capehart`s an opinion writer also with "The Washington

This weekend, Donald Trump went after Jeb Bush`s family. Trump
circulated a tweet, as I said, to his three million followers deriding
Bush`s Mexican wife, Columba. He read, quote, "Jeb Bush has to like the
Mexican illegals because of his wife," close quote. Well, Trump has
subsequently taken that message down after he got it across, of course.

Trump`s attack came just hours after Jeb Bush ripped into Trump for
his ugly rhetoric about immigrants. Here it is. At a July 4th event, "The
New York Times" reported that Jeb was asked if he took Trump`s remarks
about immigrants personally, given his family. Quote, "Mr. Bush became a
little cross. `yes, of course,` also, `absolutely,` he said."

Anyway, Bush then went on the attack. Let`s watch him.


JEB BUSH (R-FL), FMR. GOV., PRES. CANDIDATE: His views are way out of
the mainstream of what Republicans think. No one suggests that we
shouldn`t control our borders. I mean, everybody has a belief that we
should control our borders.

But to make these extraordinarily ugly kind of comments is not
reflective of the Republican Party. Trump is wrong on this. He`s just --
he`s doing this -- and he`s not a stupid guy, so I don`t assume he`s, like
-- he thinks that every Mexican crossing the border`s a rapist. I mean, so
he`s doing this to inflame and to incite and to get -- to draw attention,
which is -- seems to be his organizing principle of his campaign.

Politically, we`re going to win when we`re hopeful and optimistic and
big and broad, rather than, you know, Rrrr, rrrr, just angry all the time.
and this is an exaggerated form of that, and there is no tolerance for it.


MATTHEWS: "Rrrr!" Anyway, Trump responded with this statement.
Quote, "This is a very important issue which all the other candidates would
have ignored had I not started this important discussion. Today, Jeb Bush
one again proves that he is out of touch with the American people. In
fact, he believes illegal immigrants who break our laws when they cross our
border come out of love." In fact, that was his line.

So Howard, this is getting nasty, and I`m sort of enjoying it.


MATTHEWS: But the thing is -- the thing is, I`m enjoying it also
because I think it`s going to force the Republican Party to take a
position. If they really wanted to deal with immigration issue, the House
of Representatives would have gotten off their butt and signed onto the
Senate bill and dealt with this issue. As long as the American leaders,
the elite, don`t deal with this issue, there`s an opportunity for guys like
this to demagogue it.

ANALYST: Well, I that`s right, Chris. I think...

MATTHEWS: They don`t want to deal with it.

FINEMAN: I think the fact that the Republicans shied away from it,
even some other Republican presidential candidates like Marco Rubio, who
started out trying to be for reform, backed away...


FINEMAN: ... created an opportunity for Trump. Now, I just spent the
July 4th weekend in New Hampshire, and looking at it through the eyes of
conservative Republicans that I talked to there, they don`t think that
Donald Trump can win the nomination. They know there`s a ceiling on Donald
Trump, but they don`t dismiss him. And the reason they don`t...

MATTHEWS: Are these people pros or regular people?

FINEMAN: No, no, both pros and regular people. But the pros,
interestingly enough, don`t view him as a clown. They view him as a force.
And because of his message on immigration, which has a sort of "us against
the world" tinge to it, it plays in New Hampshire.

Don`t forget, in the Republican primary in 1996, Pat Buchanan...

MATTHEWS: Oh, yes!


FINEMAN: ... a similar theme of "keep the people out" won that
primary, and Donald Trump is going straight after those people...

MATTHEWS: Pitchfork. Pitchfork people.

FINEMAN: ... and he`s going straight at the pitchfork people on

MATTHEWS: I was up there, too, Kathleen, and I saw Pat Buchanan.
There is a right up there. In the case of Pat, it was (INAUDIBLE) pro-life
people. But this attitude of, We`re not Yankees, we`re not old, wonderful
moderate Republicans, we`re tough-assed people that moved up here to get
away from Massachusetts and taxes, and they`re angry -- will it work?

KATHLEEN PARKER, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, look, I don`t think Donald
Trump speaks for the Republican Party. I think he...

MATTHEWS: How about on immigration?

PARKER: I think he speaks for Donald Trump. I think what his appeal
is thus far is that he said something -- they like his brashness. They
like the fact that somebody`s at least saying something about this problem
that we have. And it is a problem. I mean...

MATTHEWS: Does anybody trust Jeb Bush is going to get tough on
illegal immigration? Just a simple question. Does anybody think Jeb Bush
will get tough on illegal immigration?

PARKER: I think Jeb Bush will come up with a conversation that...


MATTHEWS: That`s my point. That`s my point.

PARKER: (INAUDIBLE) going to put drones in...

MATTHEWS: No, no, stop the illegal hiring, which is in the bill.

PARKER: Well...

MATTHEWS: Pass the bill the Senate passed. Pass the bill (INAUDIBLE)
stops illegal hiring.

PARKER: Well, I can`t answer that question. I don`t know.

MATTHEWS: That`s what my question is. That`s my question. And until
the Republican establishment, in the face of Jeb Bush -- forget the fact
his wife`s Mexican, all that -- the face -- he is the establishment. Until
the establishment Republican Party walks forward and says -- and John
Boehner has to do this -- We are serious about stopping illegal immigration
and regulating it in a progressive fashion, but it`s not going to helter-
skelter, who wants to get across the border anymore.

PARKER: Nobody wants to take this on. You know, it was the midterms,
and then it was -- and now it`s the national election. Nobody`s going to
do anything now.


MATTHEWS: Well, Lindsey Graham is, of all people.

been to New Hampshire. I have not spoken to anyone, but I am here to
declare that Donald Trump is a clown. Everything he is saying runs counter
to what this country is all about.

MATTHEWS: How about the Republican right?

CAPEHART: Well, the Republican right, sure. I mean...

MATTHEWS: Well, they are part of the country.

CAPEHART: Well, they are part of the country. You talked about Pat
Buchanan. Yes, he did very well in New Hampshire...


CAPEHART: But we`re not talking about President Buchanan and we`re
not going to be talking about President Trump.

MATTHEWS: How do you know?

CAPEHART: How do I know?


CAPEHART: Look, if the United States -- well, look, if the Republican
Party wants to nominate Donald Trump, go right ahead. Please do it.

PARKER: They`re not going to do that.

CAPEHART: If the American people see fit to elect someone as native
as Donald Trump...

MATTHEWS: OK, here...


MATTHEWS: Ted Cruz already has already sided up with him. He`s
standing up with Trump. Here`s Cruz on "MEET THE PRESS" yesterday. You
have spoken here. Now here`s Cruz.

PARKER: My turn.




for focussing on the need to address illegal immigration. The Washington
cartel doesn`t want to address that. The Washington cartel doesn`t believe
we need to secure the borders. The Washington cartel supports amnesty.
And I think amnesty is wrong, and I salute Donald Trump for focusing on it.

He has a colorful way of speaking. It`s not the way I speak. But I`m
not going to engage in the media`s game of throwing rocks and attacking
other Republicans. I`m just not going to do it!


MATTHEWS: Well, he has been attacking Republicans most of his Senate
career. But that`s all right.

FINEMAN: Christie called him -- Chris Christie called him on that.


FINEMAN: And I think Ted Cruz is hoping that he avoids the gaze -- he
avoids the gaze of the terminator here, and you know, the clown terminator
in Donald Trump because...



MATTHEWS: Don`t let them look at you!



MATTHEWS: Don`t let them look at you.

FINEMAN: I`m OK with you. I`m OK with you, Donald.


MATTHEWS: A month from now -- Kathleen, a month from how, we have a
debate. Fox News is having it. It`s going to be a debate with 10

PARKER: Well...

MATTHEWS: ... and Donald Trump is going to be one of them. What`s it
going to be like on this issue of immigration?

CAPEHART: Oh, my God.

PARKER: Well, he`s just going to -- you know, he`s going to force
everybody to make some kind of statement. But the fact is he`s done all
this in order to get attention drawn to himself so that he can be on that
stage. That`s what is so enraging.

By the way, the Republican Party is not going to nominate Donald
Trump. And let`s just be clear -- I mean...

MATTHEWS: Who`s going to be leading in the polls the week after the


MATTHEWS: The week after the debate, in mid-August, who`s going to be
leading the Republican polling? You say it`s never going to happen. OK.
Fine. Let`s talk about this year.

PARKER: It`s not going to happen. Look, the future for the
Republican Party...

MATTHEWS: Kathleen...

PARKER: ... is in reaching out to Hispanics and...


PARKER: By the way, the largest growth in the evangelical church is
among Hispanics.


PARKER: And the largest...


FINEMAN: He kills the party in the general election. He kills the
party in the general reelection in the fantastical chance that he would
become the nominee.

MATTHEWS: OK. Well, he`s still...

FINEMAN: However, he`s going to be a force in the primaries for a
whole lot of different reasons -- the plain speaking, the immigration, the


FINEMAN: He`s the revenge of the party on itself.

MATTHEWS: I think he`s a factor...


PARKER: That`s true.

MATTHEWS: You know why? Because it`s so weak at the top.

FINEMAN: Right. Exactly.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, Rick Perry is leading the charge against Trump.
Here`s Perry on yesterday`s "This Week."


RICK PERRY (R-TX), FMR. GOV., PRES. CANDIDATE: Donald Trump does not
represent the Republican Party. I was offended by his remarks. He`s going
to have to defend those remarks. I never will. And I will stand up and
say that those are offensive, which they were.


MATTHEWS: Well, Trump responded by tweeting, "Rick Perry failed at
the border. Now he is critical of me. He needs a new pair of glasses to
see the crimes committed by illegal immigrants."


MATTHEWS: (INAUDIBLE) this is high school!

PARKER: Now, the fighting...


PARKER: ... the tweeting arena just...


CAPEHART: I mean, this is classic Donald Trump, whether you`re --
whether you`re -- what`s her -- Rosie O`Donnell or some other person on
Twitter, he just -- he takes the flamethrower and he cooks you with his

And that`s great on Twitter, and I guess it might work when you`re
going up against fellow Republicans for the nomination, but eventually, I
hope that the Republican primary voters, as this goes along, will, you
know, take the sleep out of their eyes and realize this guy, as Kathleen
said, is only out for Donald Trump.

FINEMAN: Can I tell you something else? Up in New Hampshire, he has
worked the phones up there. He`s had dinner a couple times with the editor
of the "Manchester Union Leader," one of the most powerful Republicans...


FINEMAN: ... he`s donated to the family of James Foley, the
journalist who was killed...

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s a good thing to do.

CAPEHART: Yes, it`s a good thing to do. And he`s let the word out
he`s done that quietly. You know...

MATTHEWS: Well, he got the word out!


FINEMAN: He didn`t -- what I`m saying is he didn`t send out a tweet
about it, OK? He`s operating on several levels.

PARKER: I think Trump would fizzle of his power...


PARKER: ... if we were not so attentive to him because the only
people that the Republican base would dislike more than someone like Trump,
who says these awful things is this crowd.


PARKER: And as long as we`re on...

MATTHEWS: Anyway, moments ago...


MATTHEWS: Thank you for that scurrilous (ph) comment.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, moments ago, Donald Trump spoke to NBC`s Katy Tur,
who asked him about his attack on Jeb Bush. Let`s watch. This is up to


clarify it on camera?

testament. You see what`s happening. And now they say I`m going even
higher. So I think the polls -- the country is fed up with what`s going
on. You know, in the old days, they used the term "silent majority." We
have the silent majority back, folks.


MATTHEWS: Well, you know, if you look at all the polls in Iowa
(INAUDIBLE) New Hampshire, the polls in Iowa suggest a very tough attitude
among Republican primary voters about illegal immigration. Basically,
their policy is "go home," you know, self-deport, leave. We don`t want to
make you American. It`s much tougher than most people, but it is that view
out there.

CAPEHART: No, yes, it is that view out there. And it`s disheartening
because this being a nation of immigrants, a lot of whom were illegal, a
lot of whom came here not under their own volition. And so now you`ve got
these people want to kick everybody out and keep everybody else out.
That`s not how this country grows, and that`s not what this country is


MATTHEWS: Anyway, nationwide, 62 percent of Republican primary --
nationwide say they`re opposed to a candidate who supports a pathway to
citizenship for undocumented immigrants. In New Hampshire, a plurality of
41 say they specifically will not support Bush because he supports allowing
illegal immigrants to stay in the country. Only 26 percent say Bush`s
views are not a problem for them.

In Iowa, 46 percent of caucus goers say that illegal immigrants should
leave the United States, as I said, compared to 34 percent who say they
should be allowed to apply for citizen -- compare that to a supermajority
of Tea Party Republicans who say they need to leave. Only 19 percent of
them say they should be allowed to apply for citizenship.

PARKER: Go where?

MATTHEWS: It`s a very -- Mexico.

FINEMAN: The Tea Party -- having covered the rise of the Tea Party, I
can tell you, scrape away the stuff about "Obama care" and everything else.
At the core of the Tea Party is the immigration...

MATTHEWS: That`s what I think.

FINEMAN: ... immigration issue. That`s what I saw when I was among
those crowds, and that`s exactly who Trump is appealing to. He did it on
the birther issue...


FINEMAN: ... and he`s doing it on this. And you know, we can laugh
about it, but as we said last week, there`s also a dangerous element to it
because he`s deliberately poking the bear. He`s deliberately...


FINEMAN: ... trading in the most...


FINEMAN: ... ugly stuff that`s going on in the heart of American
politics. But you`re right, since the Republicans were too chicken to deal
with the issue...

MATTHEWS: As long as you know the door`s open...

FINEMAN: ... he will...


MATTHEWS: Nobody`s moderating who comes in or checking on it,
nobody`s making people...


MATTHEWS: If that`s the case, they`re going to say...


FINEMAN: And by the way, John Kasich, the governor of Ohio...


FINEMAN: ... he`s not announcing until the 21st. He`s probably not
even going to be in the debate in Ohio. I mean, that thing on August 6th
is in Cleveland.

PARKER: Yes, Trump`s going to take his spot.

FINEMAN: Trump will take his spot.

MATTHEWS: Well, it`ll be interesting to see if anybody takes
Jonathan`s position in that debate, really challenges heart to heart and
says, This is un-American. We`ll see.

CAPEHART: I hope someone does.

PARKER: Well, it`s not un-American...


PARKER: ... to be in favor of laws that are enforced. That`s not un-
American and...


MATTHEWS: Maybe the Republicans are. Maybe this`ll gin them back
into taking it seriously and stop playing this ethnic game.

FINEMAN: Let`s give Jeb a little bit of credit.

MATTHEWS: I`ll give him a little bit of credit.


MATTHEWS: Thank you, Howard Fineman, Kathleen Parker -- but he`s on
the defensive -- Jonathan Capehart, who showing enormous passion here,
which we always like to see. It`s probably well-founded even.

Anyway, coming up -- four years ago, former senator -- former
Pennsylvania senator Rick Santorum won the Iowa caucuses. Now he`s
struggling to make the cut, believe it or not, for the first debate next
month. He`s coming to HARDBALL to tell us how he plans to turn things
around. That`s coming up next.

And the far right is bracing for the American invasion of -- catch
this, didn`t you know it`s coming? -- of Texas! Conspiracy theorists out
there are warning us again of a secret Pentagon operation which starts next
week and some fear it`s an invasion of Texas. By the way, Ted Cruz called
the Pentagon. They said it isn`t, so he`s OK on it.

Is it time for Hillary Clinton to start taking Bernie Sanders
seriously? The Vermont senator is drawing the crowds, of course, and doing
well in Iowa and New Hampshire, but we`ll see. We`ll see.

Anyway, finally, "Let Me Finish" with a very important speech over the
weekend in Hanoi, Vietnam, Bill Clinton`s wow of a speech over there.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, here`s a good sign for Democrats heading into next
year`s elections. According to the Gallup polling, Democrats have regained
their edge in party affiliation. Forty-six percent of Americans identify
as Democrats now, or Democrat-leaning independents. And 41 percent
identify as Republicans or Republican-leaning independents.

The two parties were neck and neck for much of the past year,
including the 2014 midterm elections, when Republicans had a slight

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. Rick Santorum, the former
senator from Pennsylvania, made a strong showing when he ran for the
Republican nomination in 2012. He outlasted everyone except Mitt Romney.
He won 11 states, including a win in the Iowa caucuses. Polls showed he
had the strong support in that campaign of conservative.

And yet four year later, he`s struggling to crack the pivotal top 10
in a crowded GOP field. According to the average of the five most recent
national polls, the criterion Fox News is using for that first debate in
August, Santorum ranks just shy of the cut-off point. But is Rick Santorum
being underestimated?

I`m joined right now by the former senator from Pennsylvania, Rick
Santorum. Senator, thank you for joining us. Boy, you got a tan! So let
me ask...

Good to be with you.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you this. Are you going to take the little
kids` table? You going to go to that he forum that Fox has offered the
people that don`t make the top 10, sometime in the afternoon between 1:00
and 3:00?

SANTORUM: Yes, I`m really not going to worry about that, Chris. I
mean, I`m going to...

MATTHEWS: Well, are you going to do it?

SANTORUM: ... work hard, have been working hard. I`ll take every
opportunity, like coming onto HARDBAR (sic) for example. I`ll come on...

MATTHEWS: Well, that`s a good attitude.

SANTORUM: ... every place to get our message out there and to try to
win, you know, voters over. That`s what we did last time. You know, it`s
a marathon, not a sprint. And we`re building a good solid team across --
I`m here in South Carolina. We got a great team down here. We`ve had some
great events since I`ve been here. and we`ll just keep doing it the grass
roots way.

National polls, as you know, Chris -- when I ran and won the Iowa
caucuses four years ago, I was at 4 percent in the national polls and I won
the caucus. So I don`t really pay much attention to those.

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s talk about your bracket. You represent the
cultural conservative aspect of the Republican Party`s traditional values.
Where do you stand on the issue of same-sex? It looks like -- I mean, I
look at the party platform. It was pretty strong last time around, when
you were running again -- constitutional amendment defining marriage as a
union between one man and one woman. If that goes, do you go?

SANTORUM: Well, I don`t think it`s going to go. I think we`re going
to -- we`re going to make sure that that stays in. I don`t know of a
single Republican running who is going to run against that -- that platform
of traditional marriage. So I don`t anticipate that going.

And I think there`s a strong case to be made that the court decision,
you know, was really bad on a lot of fronts.

Number one, whether you`re a Democrat or Republican, set aside the
issue, for example, of gay marriage, and look at the fact that the United
States Supreme Court just basically, as Justice Roberts said, out of
nowhere, out of -- completely without constitutional basis, created another
right, is that really the role of the court?

Have they taken over from, as Justice Scalia said, to -- we have -- we
gotten rid of our democracy when nine people can decide what the rights are
in this country, instead of the collective will of the American people.

And so you have got a real issue there of the role of the judiciary,
whether you`re a Democrat or Republican. And you have a real serious First
Amendment issue here, Chris. The fact that the justices said you`re
allowed to teach what we in the Catholic Church -- you`re a Catholic, as I
am -- they`re saying to you and me, Chris, you`re allowed to teach what you
want, but they didn`t say you could practice what you want.

I mean, that`s a very clear sign that the court is open to having
churches being told how to practice their faith. This is really serious...


MATTHEWS: Do you think that`s coming? Do you think they would --
then, do you think the court would ever take the overreach of saying, you
have to have gay marriage in the Catholic Church? How would they do that?
How would that ever actually happen?

SANTORUM: I think, if you would have said 10 years ago, would we --
well, 15 years ago, maybe -- that we would be in this position, most people
would have said, you`re crazy.

In fact, when I offered the constitutional amendment on marriage back
in 2004, everyone said, oh, this is premature. This will never happen.
There is no reason for us to be concerned about this.

So, I would just say that you don`t know what is going to happen until
you look at the tea leaves.


SANTORUM: And you look at the tea leaves in this decision, they left
it very wide open for, for example, the government to say that if you`re a
church that doesn`t allow this kind of marriage, we`re not going to give
you your 501(c)(3) status, which is your nonprofit status.

And even the solicitor general of the United States said that that`s
an open question. So, yes, I think they could be bullied into doing
something that they don`t want to do.

MATTHEWS: Well, that could mean they could force the Catholic Church
into having female priests, too. I don`t think they can go that far. I
just don`t think they can.


SANTORUM: Well, I don`t think that`s the -- I don`t think that`s the
same issue. I think this is a very different issue.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, this weekend, Jeb Bush responded to comments that
Donald Trump made about Mexican immigrants in this country being rapists
and bringing drugs and crime and all that. We know that quote.

Let`s watch.


JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: His views are way out of the
mainstream of what Republicans think.

No one suggests that we shouldn`t control our borders. I mean,
everybody has a belief that we should control our borders. But to make
these extraordinary ugly kind of comments is not reflective of the
Republican Party.


MATTHEWS: Who wins this argument within your caucus, within the
Republican Party?

SANTORUM: I mean, does anybody really think that Donald Trump isn`t
going to say some outrageous things? I mean, that`s what Donald Trump

I mean, the idea that we`re now going to police Donald Trump`s speech
is almost ridiculous on its face. You know, he`s a flamboyant guy who says
things that are edgy and marginal.


SANTORUM: And you know what? As you know, Chris, everybody has the
right to say those things. I think we have got a lot of speech police that
are going around saying, oh, you can`t say this, you can`t say that.

Do I agree with everything that Donald Trump says? Of course not. I
wouldn`t be running for president if I agreed with everything that
everybody said and wanted to do. But Donald Trump brings up a very
important issue, which is the issue of immigration. And if you look at...


MATTHEWS: I agree. I wish your party had dealt with it.

Why didn`t your party deal with it in the House of Representatives and
get it behind us, put in teeth in terms of illegal hiring and that kind of
thing, move ahead, instead of just letting it sit there for a guy like him
to exploit? Isn`t that the problem; the House hasn`t acted?

SANTORUM: Well, I agree with you that -- well, I always go back to
the president, when he had two years of a Democratic Congress, and could
have done anything he wanted, and never even introduced an immigration

So, to point to the Republican Congress, when the president had 60
votes in the Senate, was able to pass a health care bill, but he didn`t
even propose an immigration bill...


SANTORUM: ... and to blame Republicans on that, I think, is just a
little bit disingenuous.

The bottom line is, though, you`re right. We do need to do something
on immigration. And if you look at my position on immigration, it says
that we do need to use E-Verify and we do need to eliminate folks...

MATTHEWS: I`m with you.

SANTORUM: ... who are working here illegally.

And we have to enforce the law when it comes to the border. I mean,
these are just sort of basic things that enforcing the law and protecting
American workers -- and that`s where I come from, that we have -- we have
seen wages flatline for the last 20 years for most workers in this country.

And we have seen a record number of immigrants come into the country.
And it`s not a coincidence that the two are tied together.

MATTHEWS: Let me think. You`re thinking aloud and smart on this.

Let me ask you a couple questions on the Supreme Court. You have
questioned it. I think what you said about the Supreme Court coming up
with rights that were not written in the Constitution is fair, except the
Supreme Court in the Brown case back in `54 said there was something
essentially unequal about separate but equal.

They found that there was, you know -- in Roe v. Wade, they found a
penumbra of privacy. This isn`t the first time the Supreme Court has found
something in the Constitution that they say is inherent in our rights, in
our Bill of Rights that, they could then illustrate or bring to life.

But what are you going to do about it?


MATTHEWS: I mean, Trump is out there -- I`m sorry. Rick -- Ted Cruz,
who is a lawyer, went to Harvard, whatever law school, and he`s coming out
saying retention elections.

I mean, damn it, these elections are now costing presidential
candidates $1 billion a year, and you`re talking about judges running for
reelection? I think -- well, I`m going to have him on Wednesday. I think
it`s ludicrous. How can we have judges run around the country running for
reelection on the Supreme Court?

What a hoot. Your thoughts?

SANTORUM: Yes, I don`t support what Ted has proposed.

But the bottom line is, the first time this substantive due process
argument was used, as you know, Chris, because Justice Roberts talked about
it at length in his dissent, was during the Dred Scott case.

So this is -- the court can do things that you like using these kinds
of unconstitutional creation of ideas of what -- what -- these penumbra of
rights, this sort of mystical clause that Justice Kennedy likes to use.


SANTORUM: They can do things you like, and they can do things you
don`t like.

The point is, they shouldn`t be doing either. That should be up to
the American public to make this decision. And whether you`re a liberal or
a conservative, don`t you want the republic, the democratic process of this
country to make these kinds of decisions?

And when we have seen the court step in and short-circuit the debate,
it doesn`t end up well. And you can talk about Roe.


SANTORUM: But Roe still is a very divisive issue in this country 40
years later. The court didn`t settle it. And I don`t think they are going
to settle it here either.

MATTHEWS: You`re right. They didn`t settle it. And Ruth Ginsburg
and some other people agree on the liberal side of things.

Let me ask you about that flag flying down there still. You say
you`re not a South Carolinian and you don`t want to get involved. But, as
a flag, what does it say to you, as an American? What does that stars and
bars say to you?

SANTORUM: Well, you know, I was in Charleston at the time this all
came down. In fact, I sat in Mother Emanuel Church on the Sunday following
the shooting.

And what I saw was something incredible, remarkable, which was a
healing process going on, where faith and the people...


SANTORUM: These people of faith reached out and used reconciliation
and forgiveness to bring a community together.

And everybody wants to talk about what is going on two hours away in
Columbia, instead of what went on that really did bring this country
together and bring this community together. I have been in Charleston a
lot since then.

And the sense and the feeling in this community is stronger than it`s
ever been, unified. And I -- I don`t know. I guess I`m a little bit
discouraged that the media wants to focus on a flag, instead of the
tremendous reconciliation that`s occurred here in the city of Charleston.

MATTHEWS: But if they keep that flag up, you won`t get
reconciliation, will you?

SANTORUM: I don`t know. I mean, what I have said, I think...

MATTHEWS: I think you will have more trouble.


SANTORUM: ... the people of South Carolina -- I think the people of
South Carolina will make the right decision and, you know, they will go on
from there.

I`m not concerned at all about what happened in Charleston having a
positive effect, not just in South Carolina, but throughout the country.


Yes, well, I think that flag is coming down this week.

Anyway, Rick Santorum, thank you so much for coming on. You`re always
welcome here, sir...

SANTORUM: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: ... even if you`re not welcome over at that other place,
when they`re just limiting it to 10 guys.


MATTHEWS: You know, we -- we have more room over here.

SANTORUM: I will be happy to come back, Chris.


SANTORUM: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: Thank you, Rick Santorum.

SANTORUM: All right.

MATTHEWS: Up next: Some on the far right are bracing for the U.S.
invasion down there of Texas, Texas. The military training exercise starts
next week.

Even down there -- there`s the nut balls down there thinking they`re
going to be invaded. And so what does Ted Cruz, the U.S. senator, does?
He calls up the Pentagon and asks, are we going to be invaded down here, or
is this a training exercise? And they assure him that it is just a
training exercise.

Why would you make a call like that? If it was a push or some kind of
invasion, they wouldn`t tell you. Anyway, it`s bringing out the very worst
of the anti-Obama conspiracy crowd.

This is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

When the U.S. military announced a routine training special operations
mission last March, they sent right-wing conspiracy theorists into a
frenzy. It began when the U.S. military released this map showing the area
of operations for the exercise in the Southwest United States, labeling the
state of Texas and other areas hostile territory.

While the map depicts a fictional scenario, some Texans believed it
foretold a military takeover of their state led by President Obama. At a
public hearing in April, the military sent a spokesperson to Bastrop County
to quell fears about the exercise. Here`s what happened.


LT. COL. MARK LASTORIA, U.S. ARMY: First and foremost, we`re truly
invested in everybody`s personal rights and their privacy. That`s what we
live for. We live to support the Constitution of the United States. And
that`s what everybody wants to live by. And that`s what we`re here to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would the court be offended if I told the colonel
that I didn`t believe a single word that he just said?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When we have a federal government that cannot tell
the truth, how do we know that what you`re saying is true?


LASTORIA: You may have issues with the administration. So be it.
OK? But this institution right here has been with you for over 240 years,

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a preparation for martial law.

LASTORIA: That`s because it is not a preparation for martial law,

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s what you say.



MATTHEWS: "That`s what you say."

Anyway, the military training exercise is set to begin next Wednesday.

I`m joined right now by Kevin Sullivan, a Pulitzer Prize-winning
journalist at "The Washington Post" who broke this story.

I guess I don`t know where to begin. Is this Texas, or is this any
part of the United States, or is this some Texas thing in the water where
they think the U.S. government is coming down to -- not just to annex
Texas, which has been done, but to take it over as a military operation?

KEVIN SULLIVAN, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I don`t know. I had e-mails
from people in Tennessee today saying that they have had people there
thinking the same thing. So, you just don`t know.

We went to Texas to find out how we got to a point in this country
where people so distrust the president that they could actually believe
that he would send the United States military in to take them over. And as
you saw from that clip, this isn`t just a -- it`s very easy to dismiss this
as a handful of nuts and wackos. But this runs fairly deep.

There are people there who, for a long time -- Texas has a long
tradition of distrusting the federal government, as we know, but it`s
really crescendoed now. And people think that he`s actually capable of
sending in the military to establish martial law. They think that he might
even try to...

MATTHEWS: So it`s he?

SULLIVAN: Well, it is -- it is...


MATTHEWS: It`s about Barack Obama.

SULLIVAN: Because they`re saying that one of the things that he wants
to do with this is to cancel the 2016 election and to end-run the
Constitution and give himself another term.

MATTHEWS: Oh. Why only a term?



SULLIVAN: Well, who knows? Maybe he will get a lot more out of it.

MATTHEWS: Anyway, you spoke -- Kevin, you spoke to the former Mayor
of Bastrop, Texas, Terry Orr.

And here`s what he said -- quote -- "The truth is, this stems a fair
amount from the fact that we have a black president. People think the
government is just not on the side of the white guy."



MATTHEWS: Did they actually speak that language to you, racial

SULLIVAN: Yes, he did.

And I should say, in fairness to Mayor Orr, he was trying to -- he
doesn`t believe this stuff himself.

MATTHEWS: Oh, no, I could tell that.

SULLIVAN: He was explaining this, this situation there.

But he said, yes, this -- they -- people are upset that we have a
black president. There is kind of smoldering embers of racism in that part
of the country anyway. And you throw in a recession, people are having a
hard time getting jobs, and now you have a black president. And people
there kept telling me, we have a guy who only cares about blacks and
minorities and, as they say, illegal aliens.


SULLIVAN: They`re very concerned about Mexicans coming across the

MATTHEWS: Well, I understand that.


SULLIVAN: But he doesn`t care about the white guy. That`s what they



Well, back in May, Senator Ted Cruz, who we`re going to have on this
week, said the Pentagon assured him that the operation was in fact a
training mission, but he appeared sympathetic to those who remain


the concern that`s been raised by a lot of citizens about Jade Helm. It`s
a question I`m getting a lot.

And I think part of the reason is, we have seen for six years a
federal government disrespecting the liberty of the citizens. My office,
we have reached out to the Pentagon to inquire about this exercise. We`re
assured that it is a military training exercise. And I have no reason to
doubt those assurances.

But I understand the reason for concern and uncertainty, because, when
the federal government has not demonstrated itself to be trustworthy in
this administration, the natural consequence is that many of the citizens
don`t trust what it`s saying.


MATTHEWS: Well, there is a lot of pandering in that, obviously.

Why did Senator Cruz, who is a smart guy, why did he say, I checked
with the Pentagon, they are not invading? First of all, if they were
invading, they wouldn`t say so.


MATTHEWS: And why did he have to go through the pander of saying, you
know, I took seriously your concern, so I called the Pentagon and they said
this is not a push or an invasion of any kind?

It`s mindless. But do people believe that stuff from him?

SULLIVAN: Well, I have no idea why he did it. But I will tell you --
I will tell you...

MATTHEWS: You know why he did it. He did it to pander.

SULLIVAN: I will tell you that, in Texas, people hear a dog whistle.
They hear him kind of appealing to a constituency, trying to say the right
thing, but just leaving the door open just wide enough so that people can
think, see, Senator Cruz...


MATTHEWS: Well, they got Louie Gohmert down there. He`s a birther,
and a couple birthers down there in that state.

SULLIVAN: Well, there`s another example.

Governor Abbott, he has asked the State Guard, the Texas State Guard
to monitor this operation.

MATTHEWS: Monitor?

SULLIVAN: So you are going to have Texas State Guard monitoring a
U.S. military operation.

MATTHEWS: Watching the guys in fatigues.

SULLIVAN: And as Governor Abbott says, this is simply to make sure
that everyone`s property rights and every other kind of rights are

But, again, it`s the dog whistle issue. People -- some people hear
that as, as one former Republican state senator said, pandering to idiots.

MATTHEWS: Well said, whoever said that.

Anyway, thank you, Kevin Sullivan.

Up next: Chris Christie is trying to shake the George Washington
Bridge scandal that engulfed his administration. He wants the media to
apologize. That`s ahead with the roundtable.

You`re watching it, HARDBALL, the place for politics.



MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

I forgot to mention that Kevin Sullivan, who`s just on, is the author
of "Hope: A Memoir of Survival", in Cleveland, with his wife, Mary Joy.
You ought to take a look at that.

Anyway, you got a lot to be -- I`m reading the prompter here. There`s
a lot going on in the Republican field that`s getting louder right now and
here comes Chris Christie.

The New Jersey governor is trying to break from the pack or the back
by blasting the press and going after his opponents. Earlier today on
"MORNING JOE", Christie made a defiant return to show in 18 months, said he
wants an apology from critics in the coverage of bridgegate -- the
political payback scheme on George Washington Bridge that`s led to criminal
charges against three of Christie`s top people.

Here he is.


nightly specials on this network for five months, you know, calling me
Attila the Hun, how about, you know, relentless attacks from "The New York
Times" and media. Remember, in the beginning, it was he did this. He
directed it. He`s this kind of guy. Then, all of a sudden, you`re not and
then say, OK, now what do we do?

So, instead of just standing up and saying, what they should say was
just, we`re sorry, Governor, for having jumped to conclusion, we`re sorry
for having prejudged this, we`re sorry for not only having accused you but
convicted you, they say, all right, now it`s a culture.


MATTHEWS: OK. The roundtable tonight, David Corn is the Washington
bureau chief for "Mother Jones" and MSNBC political analyst, Jennice
Fuentes is a Democratic strategist, and Jonathan Allen is the chief
political correspondent from Vox.

You know, I don`t know. I don`t know. I thought he was rather
prosecutorial when it came to the fact he fired and indicted basically
bridge and Kelly on television. He basically wasn`t exactly being nice.

DAVID CORN, MOTHER JONES: This thing is not over with --

MATTHEWS: Her trial is in November and I can`t wait.

CORN: Right. And there are other investigates still on going. The
guy whose most famous phrase is "sit down and shut up" has now gone on and
saying, boo-ho-ho, I need an apology.

I think it only plays because the one thing that the conservative
Republicans like above anything else is when you go after the media. And
so, he wants to make -- he was never a favorite of the conservatives and
his numbers went up when he started being attacked by the media. So, going
out there and playing the media victim may get up him to 5 percent in the

MATHEWS: You know what? I don`t know.


checked, anyone who needs an apology is somebody that`s a victim and I find
it very hard to believe that he`ll be a victim in anyone`s eyes. I think
that for him to say that this is in the past when there`s somebody who`s
been actually, you know, admitted guilt and two who are under nine count of
criminal indictment, this is not in the past only. This is the past,
present and future, and it will get vigorous. You`re right. We`re looking
forward to that.

MATTHEWS: The trial is up and coming, he says he`s clean.

JONATHAN ALLEN, VOX: The people that need an apology are the people
in Fort Lee, New Jersey, stuck in the traffic, not Chris Christie.

But the problem for Chris Christie with bridgegate is not the scandal
itself, but what reminds everybody of, which is exactly what David said,
the "sit down, shut up", bully governor of New Jersey. I mean, this is a
guy who was all about him, all about his own political advancement and his
aides obviously thought that it was all right to hurt constituents in
service of his political goals.

MATTHEWS: Who here hasn`t covered politician, look at politicians,
you`ve been one. Here is the story -- does anyone think that the fish
doesn`t rot from the head, as Dukakis used to say. If all the people in
your office seemed to think the job here is to intimidate, punish,
whatever, Democratic mayors, if they don`t play ball, where does that come

Bridget Kelly worked right across the hall from the governor. They
weren`t 60,000 employees out there.

CORN: There are no e-mails here that have come out yet that say we
better not tell the governor about this because we know he`ll be really
upset. That hasn`t been part of the story yet.

MATTHEWS: What I`m seeing in politics is you end up looking like the
boss. You don`t end up wearing. You dress like him. Kennedys had narrow

You know, I don`t think you act like these people come along and got
the idea I was a tough customer and I was bully and I should bully these
mayors who are doing stuff by cutting off their traffic. Where would you
get that idea except for the boss?

FUENTES: And to think that you can actually carry. I think it`s
hilarious that he says that he`s not really responsible but he`s actually,
that`s a war of words. And, really, you`re right, either he is in charge
or he`s not in charge. And he wants to be in charge of this country, it
gives me no, I have no --

MATTHEWS: That`s an old game in politics. I accept no responsibility
except specific responsibility.

FUENTES: Exactly. It was not my fault.

MATTHEWS: By the way, the worst thing he said was 60,000 employees
because everyone knows he`s not talking about people collecting tolls out
in Ocean City, or Summer`s Point, you know, cut off there, he`s talking
about people working in his office, all the people in that crowd that got
indicted. They`re all his appointees.

ALLEN: They are very, very close. I mean, the idea he`s got some
distance from this, I mean, it`s a finger`s worth a distance.

MATTHEWS: Well, we`re going to come right back and talk about
something more interesting and I can`t figure out what it is here.

CORN: Bernie Sanders.

MATTHEWS: Bernie Sanders is all over this network. So, we`ve got to
get Bernie.

ALLEN: Feel the Bern.

MATTHEWS: No, we`re going to do Bernie because everyone is doing it.

The roundtable is staying with us.

Can Bernie beat Hillary or is it just "Weekend with Bernie"?

We`ll be right back.


MATTHEWS: HARDBALL is the place for politics, of course, in the 2016
presidential election.

On Wednesday this week, Ted Cruz is coming here. The Texas senator is
among the most outspoken in the presidential field. And you don`t want to
miss my interview with Senator Ted Cruz coming up this Wednesday. That`s
Wednesday here on HARDBALL.


MATTHEWS: We`re back with a roundtable, David, Jennice and Jonathan.

Democratic presidential candidate Bernie Sanders considered himself to
be a freelance journalist back in the 1960s and `70s, writing mostly for a
publication called "The Vermont Freeman", often linking topics like sexual
oppression, cancer, fluoridated water and public education in his writing.
In a 1969 article for "The Freeman" called "Cancer, Disease and Society",
Sanders writes "The manner which you bring up your daughter with regard to
sexual attitudes may very well determine whether or not she will develop
breast cancer, among other things."

In the same essay, he writes he writes with regard to the schools that
you send your kids to school, are you concerned many institutions serve no
other function than to squash the life, joy and curiosity out of kids.

Sanders is now United States senator and, of course, a candidate for
president. He`s holding his own against Hillary Clinton in the polls.
According to the latest CNN/WMUR poll in New Hampshire, Sanders trails
Clinton by just eight points. He also drew huge crowds last week to
rallies in Denver and in Madison.

Clinton campaign communications director Jennifer Palmieri responded
to the Sanders boomlet this morning on "MORNING JOE."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does your campaign worry about Bernie Sanders?
Will you begin to acknowledge and attack Bernie Sanders in this campaign?

him, sure. He`s a force. He`ll be a serious force for the campaign. I
think we don`t need to attack each other. We all -- he`ll run his
campaign, we`ll run ours.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You`re not worried about Bernie Sanders right now?

PALMIERI: Of course, we are worried about him. This is an election
and he is doing well. And we`ll have to -- you know, she`ll have to make
her case. But we knew this was going to happen.


MATTHEWS: So, is it time to take Sanders seriously? And I want go
through everybody on that because, what does that mean to take him
seriously by the press? We`re covering him. He`s getting a lot of ink,
especially in this network. So, people are taking him seriously.

But is it serious enough to go back into this oppo research on the guy
and what he wrote 40 years ago?

CORN: Well, we put out the story --

MATTHEWS: It`s your story.

CORN: -- that revealed some of that, as did "The New York Times."

And I have to say, I think it`s fair game. Everybody`s history who`s
running for president, whether it`s Hillary, or Ted Cruz, or Bernie
Sanders. And the media did a remarkable thing. If you go back and read
his history, he started out as a radical journalist and activist who then
came to believe that the way to get change is to run for local office. He
ran for mayor and he ran for Congress, and he ran a lot of times before he

This shows this guy has a lot of grit, a lot of determination and is
committed to finding the best effective way for social change. So, it`s
all piece of that. I do think that his message is powerful.

MATTHEWS: Who`s putting the story out? How did this story get out?

CORN: People say this is oppo research, is it from Hillary Clinton?
No, we decided to do this ourselves.

MATTHEWS: It`s interesting. Does it matter that a guy wrote about
how if women have more sex basically, they`re less likely to get cancer.
Does that bother people?

FUENTES: I think it will bother people for 24 hours or 48 hours. I
think at the end of the day, he brings in this economic equality
conversation and if you have a 73-year-old blunt-speaking non-Democrat
doing better and better on the polls, bringing bigger and bigger crowds and
raising more and more money you have to pay attention.

MATTHEWS: Lightning question: can he win New Hampshire?

ALLEN: He could win New Hampshire.

MATTHEWS: I think so, too.

Thank you very much, David Corn, Jennice Fuentes and Jonathan Allen.

When we return, let me finish with what Bill Clinton said over the
July 4th weekend about the big changes between the United States and the
government of Vietnam. This is an amazing little bit here.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with something former President Bill
Clinton said over the weekend in the Vietnamese capital of Hanoi. He spoke
about our country`s relationship with Vietnam, a country we were at war
with all those years.

He said, "There is no American my age who didn`t know at least someone
who was killed here." He spoke of the raging debate over that war, how
both sides arguing the Vietnam War thought so little of the other and how
the two governments actually fighting that war -- Vietnam`s and America`s -
- 20 years ago accepted each other and were set free by that decision.

Clinton called that one of the most important achievements of his
life, how it, as he said, helped to heal the wounds of war, to bill bonds
of genuine friendship and provide proof in an increasingly divided world
that cooperation was far better than conflict.

The former president described how Vietnam has gone from being a
country where people made barely a dollar a day 20 years ago when he
normalized relationships with them and has seen explosive economic growth
and how its children are among the highest in the world at basic math,
science and literature. That`s Vietnam.

Finally, he spoke of how President Obama is trying to add to this
record of economic cooperation with the TPP negotiation. He said he hoped
more than anything else that there will be as much bipartisan support for
it as there was 20 years ago for the normalization of relations between the
United States and Vietnam.

He said, "If our country can get good labor, human rights and
environmental standards, the TPP will command the support of a broad swath
of the American people."

What a difference a generation makes, a country we fought and bled for
is an economic and diplomatic partner and Bill Clinton had a lot to do with

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" starts right now.


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