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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Wednesday, July 8th, 2015

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Date: July 8, 2015
Guest: Karen Tumulty, Eugene Joseph Dionne, Juan Cartagena, Eric

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: For hours, if you look at Donald Trump`s own
website on Trump web, it works the same way. Show your support for Donald
"laziness is a trait in blacks" Trump.

Now, there is a way to undo this app if you get tired of seeing it, but
honestly, the internet is more useful if you keep this thing installed.

God bless fusion and the Trump web. It is the best new thing in the world
today. That does it for us tonight, we will see you again tomorrow, now
it`s time for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening,

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Rachel, thank you.

MADDOW: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Breaking news tonight, the chairman of the Republican Party
called Donald Trump to ask him to tone it down.


DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People like what I say, they
agree with what I say.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Republicans fear Trump`s comments will be a drag on
the entire party.

TRUMP: I have great relationship with the Mexican people.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And will cost them crucial Latino voters.

TRUMP: And I`ll tell you something, if I get the nomination, I`ll win the
Latino vote. If you listen to Hillary, she is so weak on immigration, we
will have a crime wave like we`ve never seen before --

JEB BUSH (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I`ve already stated my views about
Donald Trump. I don`t -- I --


BUSH: I`m done.

TRUMP: Jeb Bush will never take us to the promised land.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t find a campaign that wants to have their
candidate be on stage with Trump.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No one can get any air time because everyone is
following Donald Trump saying crazier and crazier things.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The fact that he is not really talking about reality
is very annoying.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everything with him is the most, the least --


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The best, the worst.

TRUMP: I`m concerned about the country, our country is going to hell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Chairman Steele, I wonder if you think anybody can
control the Donald.

NATIONAL COMMITTEE: Oh, hell, no, that ain`t going to happen.



O`DONNELL: We have breaking news tonight. "The Washington Post" is
reporting that the chairman of the Republican Party Reince Priebus called
Donald Trump today to tell him to tone it down on the topic of immigration.

The telephone call reportedly lasted for an hour. Joining us now by phone
is "Washington Post" Karen Tumulty who co-wrote tonight`s breaking news

Karen, what else do we know about this phone call today?

telephone): Well, it comes at a moment when a lot of Republican leaders
across the country are beginning to worry that Donald Trump has moved out
of the category of being sort of an embarrassment and a novelty candidate
into the realm where essentially the whole party is going to have to own
his comments.

O`DONNELL: And Reince Priebus is in a situation where he has to in effect,
I guess, calm the investors in the Republican Party who will be investing
in some individual candidates, who they imagine can be banged around by
Donald Trump on the debate stage.

TUMULTY: That`s right. I mean, we are now less than a month away from
this first debate. The party had really hoped that what they were going to
be presenting was a field of candidates that was experienced and sober.

And, you know, had some gravitas, somewhat attractive, you know, some
attraction to voters at large.

And what they are really worried about is, again, you know, kind of the
effect of having Donald Trump up there among them.

O`DONNELL: To judge by Katy Tur`s interview with Donald Trump today and
every other interview I have seen, if Reince Priebus was on the phone with
Donald Trump for an hour, Reince got in about three minutes worth of --


Worth of human speech.

TUMULTY: Yes, and you know, I`m sitting here trying to -- myself, piece
together the timeline, and I -- it`s, yes, we think this call happened sort
of mid to late afternoon which would have been after when most of these
interviews that he did today were taped.

But you know, one of the things that most worries the Republicans we talked
to is the fact that every time he gets an opportunity, Donald Trump, you
know, not only doesn`t try to tamp this down, but he actually, you know,
throws a few more briquettes on the fire.

O`DONNELL: Is there anyone in Republican politics in Washington who
actually thinks that Reince Priebus is a match for Donald Trump on the
telephone in a situation like this?

TUMULTY: You know, I talked to a number of Republican officials today who
said that the problem is that this guy really seeks and draws sustenance
from attention and from controversy.

And that, you know, a number of people I talked to, said the best thing we
could do is just essentially ignore him and assume he is going to go away
because he`s not going to be our nominee and this would just sort of prove
to be sort of a bad dream.

But -- so there is danger in sort of, you know provoking him.

O`DONNELL: Karen Tumulty, thanks for joining us for this breaking news
report tonight, thank you.

TUMULTY: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Donald Trump may be a candidate for president, but he is not
running for president. He is sitting for president in Trump tower and
letting the campaign come to him.


KATY TUR, NBC NEWS: You are one of the only candidates who didn`t campaign
during the 4th of July. Pretty much all of them were up in New Hampshire
and you were not there.

You`ve had no campaign events really this week, no campaign events planned
for next week that we know of so far. You`re not campaigning that much.

How can anybody take you seriously if you`re not out there showing your

TRUMP: Because I`m doing television review and I am up there actually a
lot, and I watched them up there walking the streets and it didn`t mean

And I was actually getting more news coverage than anybody else by far
because I`m the one that brought up the whole situation of the whole mess
with immigration and what the Mexican government is doing to us.

So, you know, I didn`t have to be and I would have been if they wanted me
to. And I just decided that probably it wasn`t necessary.

I`m going up actually next week and I`ll be in Iowa many times over the
next number of months and New Hampshire many times.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, "Nbc`s" Katy Tur who interviewed Donald Trump
today, also with us, Steve Kornacki, host of "UP WITH STEVE KORNACKI" on

E. J. Dionne, "Washington Post" columnist and an Msnbc analyst, and Kasie
Hunt, Msnbc national political correspondent.

Katy, first of all, what`s the deal with the, we do this in Trump tower in
the lobby with everybody walking by.

That`s his --

TUR: That`s his home base --

O`DONNELL: Decision about where he does these interviews --

TUR: It`s --

O`DONNELL: Right? --

TUR: His home base, it`s where he feels comfortable. And it is
interesting that he wasn`t on, on the campaign trail, but Rachel made a
really good point last hour, that he doesn`t really need to be.

I mean, he is getting more attention than anybody else and he hasn`t had to
go out there and shake hands and be in a parade. He was originally planned
to be in New Hampshire for the 4th of July, they cancelled it.

And still, he has more coverage than anybody else who is getting the
attention that he so desperately wants, and he`s making all of his opinions
known. He is having people listen to him and react.

O`DONNELL: You know, Steve, I laughed through most of every Donald Trump
interview, most of every Donald Trump statement out, because they are
really funny.

But I got to say just hearing Katy outline his campaign schedule there in
that --


O`DONNELL: Question to him was so funny to me. And I think it`s one of
the many proofs that Donald knows this is a joke. He is not running for
president, he is not going to be on a ticket, he knows that.

KORNACKI: Well, maybe, but on another level, at what point does it end? I
mean, you could say look, we`re months away from the first primary and the
first caucus.

And it`s just -- such is like white hot situation right now, it`s hard to
imagine something like this enduring for next six months and not -- and not
collapsing at some point.

On the other hand though, he is moving up in the polls as all this happens.
You see him here tonight, there is this new state poll from North Carolina
-- I know North Carolina.

Critical primary state, but this is a barometer of where Republican opinion
is, and he is moving into first place right there.

And I think, the problem that the Republican Party has right now is, the
issue that he`s chosen to focus on in this very inflammatory way is

And if the Republican Party wants to co-optimize, they want to try to make
it -- so there`s not this opening in their field for somebody like Donald

They need to say, OK, look, we`re not going to give you this tone, we`re
not going to give you this message, but we`re still going to give you this
issue, Republican base voters.

And the problem is, the other thing that Donald Trump is tapping into here
besides concern about immigration as the issue, he is tapping into it and
you hear in this interview, he is tapping into the sense of the Republican
Party is filled with a bunch of sellouts.

And so if it`s Jeb Bush or if it`s Chris Christie or if it`s any of these
other candidates getting up there on stage with Trump and saying, well,
listen, I have -- I kind of agree with him on immigration but I wouldn`t go
this far.

They are playing into his hand because they sound like sellouts. He is
taking this maximalist position and I don`t know how you can deny him that.

TUR: I think he does think that he is going to be in it for the long haul.
I think he has no plans of backing out any time soon. When we pressed him
on the financial --

O`DONNELL: Oh, yes, he can -- he can stay in this for -- you know, because
he -- by the way, he is the cheapest candidate in the race. OK, he`s not
spending a nickel on this thing.

That`s part of -- his travel budget is now close to zero. I want to go to
something you asked him about, which goes back four years ago and thank you
for asking him about this.

It goes to his credibility, it goes to what a public liar he is, and this
is the -- your question to him about being a leader of the birther
movement. Let`s listen to that.


TUR: A few years ago, you led the birther movement. You said
investigators are off to Hawaii to find out whether or not Obama -- which
you said was not born here.

TRUMP: Well, I --

TUR: And it turned out --

TRUMP: Don`t know the whole idea --

TUR: To not be true --


TRUMP: Well, I don`t know, if you -- according to you, it`s not true. I
don`t know, you know --

TUR: He released his birth certificate.

TRUMP: And you know, if you believe that, that`s fine. I don`t care, it`s
an old subject. I`m about jobs, I`m about security, I`m about fixing the
military, I`m about taking care of our vets.

I`m about things that you don`t have to bring up old subjects, whether he
did or not, who knows? A lot of people don`t agree with you on that, by the


O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, lying, public lying is normally a problem for
political candidates. His big lie of the many lies in there, one of the
provable lies are the investigators who went to Hawaii.

That was a lie, they didn`t exist, they never went to Hawaii. He cannot
prove in any way that he sent anyone to Hawaii, he never did.

He was faking that whole thing, and it is to me, classic Trump and it is to
me what this whole campaign is. The whole campaign is a fake.

It`s a campaign to maintain fame, that part of it is working, he`s never
going to be on any ticket.

never going to be on any ticket, but I think that he seems immune from all
the other things that trip a candidate up.

I mean, look at what he said about Hillary Clinton, he said he liked her,
he thought she would be a strong candidate, that was back in 2012.

Now he says, she is the worst Secretary of State in history. Normally,
complete contradictions like that would trip you up, but Trump is a 100
percent certain of whatever he says even when he is a 100 percent opposite
of where he was.

But I think the other problem Republicans have, is they`re still reluctant
to take him on and really distance themselves.

I was really struck in the post story that Karen Tumulty and my colleagues
did, that down in the story, a Republican National Committee spokesman is -
- says that Priebus had a very respectful conversation with Trump.

So, it was a very respectful conversation about not saying utterly
outrageous things about Mexican-Americans.

And if they`re going to stay very respectful of him, they`re not going to
distance themselves from him the way the party needs to.

O`DONNELL: And Kasie Hunt, among the many reasons for Reince Priebus to
make his completely futile call to Donald Trump --



O`DONNELL: Is the point that George Will has made, which is Donald Trump
is acting as if he is a Democratic plant in the Republican campaign. Let`s
listen to the way -- the way Katy asked Trump about that today.


TUR: George Will said you could be a Democratic operative.

TRUMP: George Will is another one. He was at Mar-A-Lago years ago, he
spoke, I didn`t want to listen to him speak and he`s never forgiven me for
the fact that I didn`t show up, because I find him to be a very boring guy.

So why do I want to listen to George Will for? I listen to the people. I
get the biggest crowds, I get the biggest standing ovations and I guess you
see it in the poll numbers, and I don`t even care about it.


O`DONNELL: Kasie, I noticed he didn`t deny being a Democratic operative.



DIONNE: Wait for a moment --

HUNT: Look, I think he doesn`t get the biggest crowds by any stretch, I
know that`s the point of contention that we`ve had in the past.

But what he does touch on and I think that you touch on it a minute ago
with this idea that people aren`t necessarily willing to go after him.

I mean, the Republican Party in many ways in the past has embraced him. I
mean all of the candidates in 2012 competed for his endorsement.

There was a lot of suspense around, whether he was going to go for Mitt
Romney or Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney run robocalls featuring Donald

I mean, he does happen to this thing of populist anger that`s out there in
the country and he is willing to sort of say whatever he wants to do.

And I also think one of the things that for Republicans that should be
concerning, if this is not something that they want to be part of their
process is, the more this affects his business ventures if -- you know, he
had a reason to get out of the race before January when his season of the
"Apprentice" was supposed to start back up again.

Because, you know, he could have potentially walked back into that. The
more that he loses out on all of these other business ventures, the more
skin he is going to have in this presidential game.

And the other thing I will say, Lawrence, I was just talking to someone who
is close to Trump. I think you`re going to start to see them actually try
and show a little bit of a real campaign muscle.

They`ve made a number of significant hires in New Hampshire. For example,
they`ve hired some long-time people who actually have a good sense of how
to run a campaign up there.

They`ve done a rollout, what they say is going to be a 99 county strategy
in Iowa, they`ve hired a long-time operative there who`s previously worked
with Rick Santorum, so we`ll see how much follow-through there is.

But I get the sense that he`s actually going to put some skin in this game.

O`DONNELL: Well, let`s remember, everybody they are hiring, they were all
available after Bush and all the real candidates did their hiring, too.
So, that`s how great they are.

HUNT: Well --

O`DONNELL: And I do --

HUNT: And they also maybe were happy to have a paycheck --

O`DONNELL: That`s right --

HUNT: As well --

O`DONNELL: And I see you do his paycheck --


DIONNE: Paycheck.

O`DONNELL: So, now, Katy, it was a great question today about, you know,
Trump`s harping on our jobs going to China. Of course, all the Trump
clothing jobs have gone to China.

You asked him about that, let`s listen to that.



TUR: Why wouldn`t you keep your manufacturing here? Your ties, your suits.
Why would you not have them made --

TRUMP: Because --

TUR: Here? --

TRUMP: China so manipulates their currency that it`s very hard to find
companies that can do business in the United States. I will not --

TUR: You`re a --

TRUMP: Excuse me --

TUR: Billionaire though --

TRUMP: Excuse me --

TUR: Why would you not move it here to prove --

TRUMP: Excuse me --

TUR: For having it in America? --

TRUMP: Because I`m a businessman. Let me just tell you something and it`s
very interesting. You`re not bringing up anything new. You know, you`re
acting like you`re the great reporter.

You`re not bringing -- I -- every speech I make, I talk about I always hate
that I have to have my ties made in China. And you know why they`re made
in China?

Because China manipulates their currency to such a degree, they just
manipulated it again two weeks ago. I never thought I`d see it so fast
again and again.

They`re taking our jobs, they`re taking our manufacturing, they`re
destroying us and rather we`re rebuilding China, and then you know what
they do? They loan us back the money.


O`DONNELL: So, OK, tough businessman Donald Trump is making his ties in
China because China forces him to.

TUR: You know, it`s interesting, you wonder that if he becomes president,
is he going to be the --


O`DONNELL: No, you don`t wonder that --

TUR: But you know, everybody is thinking --


TUR: Of him as a businessman-president who -- because it`s better
business, outsources to China or will he take a hit in his finances and
have them be made in America if he`s so --

O`DONNELL: He is --

TUR: Adamant about --

O`DONNELL: When he`s --

TUR: Having --

O`DONNELL: President --

TUR: In here --

O`DONNELL: He`s going to tell all those bad businessmen like Donald Trump,
you can`t get your ties made in China anymore.

That`s the Trump position apparently. All right, we`re going to have to
take a break, when we come back, Donald Trump evaluates Hillary Clinton`s
work as Secretary of State.

We`ve had 68 Secretaries of State in American history, guess where Donald
ranks Hillary. And later, we`ll have an exclusive interview with New York
State`s Attorney General who as of today is the only Attorney General in
America officially empowered to investigate all killings by police in his


O`DONNELL: Donald Trump has contributed money to Hillary Clinton`s
campaigns, he has said in the past that she was qualified to be president.

But guess where he ranks her now as Secretary of State in the history of
American Secretaries of State, that`s next.



TRUMP: Hillary Clinton was the worst Secretary of State in the history of
the United States. Hillary was the worst in the history of the United

There has never been a Secretary of State so bad as Hillary. The world
blew up around us. We lost everything including all relationships.

There wasn`t one good thing that came out of that administration, or her
being Secretary of State.


O`DONNELL: E. J. Dionne, Donald Trump has evaluated the 68 Secretaries of
State in our history and found for us the worst ever.

DIONNE: Right, which is remarkable as you pointed out. He was a
contributor to Hillary, he praised her just a few years ago.

You know, the Republicans were reluctant to go after him for saying awful
things about Mexican-Americans, but they`re going to hit him hard for flip-
flopping on Hillary Clinton and probably not being tough enough.

She was the worst cabinet member in the history of the United States. It`s
just remarkable and I think this is where the air by the way is going to
come out of the balloon.

He has so many ties to Democrats in the past -- New York is a Democratic
state, he had to do a lot of business with Democrats, and now all of a
sudden he is this right-wing hero.

And I think if the Republicans ever have to go after him, if he ever gets
more serious, that`s what they`re going to hit him on.

O`DONNELL: Kasie Hunt, I can imagine him telling Reince Priebus in that
phone call today, didn`t you hear what I said about Hillary today, isn`t
that great?


HUNT: Distinctly possible, Lawrence. I mean, the other thing, you know,
Donald Trump invited Hillary and Bill Clinton to one of his weddings.
There`s --


HUNT: A great old photograph of the four of them all together. But yes,
you know, I think in some ways Reince Priebus calling Donald Trump just
encourages him frankly.

I mean he really likes being part of this overall conversation. I remember
talking to him the day after he announced -- or the day, excuse me, that he
announced he was running and he was on the phone with Governor Rick Scott
of Florida talking about, you know, who`s called him to congratulate him.

I mean, this is the kind of thing that really makes this -- adds energy to
it rather than taking it away. So, whether ultimately it was the best idea
on the part of the RNC, I guess we`re going to have to wait and see.

O`DONNELL: All right, let`s listen to how Trump linked Hillary to the
situation at the border with illegal immigration as described by Trump and
the Trump vision then of what a Hillary presidency would be like.


TRUMP: Hillary would let everybody come in, killers, criminals, drug
dealers, everybody. If you listen to Hillary, everybody is going to be
flocking to the nation.

They are sort of now any way. But if you listen to Hillary, she is so weak
on immigration, we will have a crime wave like you`ve never seen.


TRUMP: We will have a crime wave like you`ve never seen. So, this takes
us a few notches beyond the Willie Horton(ph) kind of campaigning
Republicans have done in the past.

TUR: You know, Chuck(ph) talked of this earlier today. He is the most
everything, the worst --


TUR: Everything --


TUR: The best everything, there`s no gray area for him --


TUR: And I think he loves being the center of attention and the way he
gets to be the center of attention is by making these very wild statements
and being very black and white about it.

O`DONNELL: But Steve Kornacki, there are people who are going to hear that
and it`s going to have an impact on the way they think about this?

KORNACKI: Yes, I think for right now, but I think E.J. is just starting to
hear this. If you want to play this out, the problem Trump is going to
have -- and like I said, just at the top.

We`re in July right now, we`re talking about primaries starting basically
in February. So, that`s a lot of time. And I kind of read the Reince
Priebus things tonight as a warning shot.

I`m not sure this is going to mean anything to Donald Trump right now. But
I think the parallel thing up here is Newt Gingrich.

Think of Newt Gingrich four years ago, when there was that moment, Newt
Gingrinch, because of this white hot moment in a debate, when he was asked
about an open marriage, and he turns the question around against John King,
the moderator.

And he takes that moment of passion and he goes from 10 percent to 40
percent in the polls in South Carolina, he wins the primary, he leaves
Romney in the dust and Republicans are forced to wake up.

In that moment confront the possibility, if they don`t stop this Newt
Gingrich becoming their nominee -- and they say, if Newt Gingrich is our
nominee, it`s disaster for our party.

That`s the consensus of the party elites. They weren`t that excited about
Romney to that point, but they definitely didn`t want Gingrich in.

What you saw in that two-week campaign in Florida in 2012 was the entire
party establishment dumping on Newt Gingrich.

Every bit of -- remember the Romney campaign ad, they took Gingrich down in
Florida, what was it? They took 30 seconds, the lead of the "Nbc Nightly
News" from January of 1997 when Gingrich got hit with a record ethics fine.

They run just the 30 seconds of Tom Brokaw giving the news. Take -- do you
want to nominate this man? The cover of the drugs report, a sort of an
Oregon for conservative --


KORNACKI: Opinion, it was all anti-Newt stuff. So, that -- look at the
material they have against Trump, if it comes to it.

This is a guy who said he was for single pair of healthcare at once, he
called himself totally pro choice. He talked about the Hillary
connections, there is a lot of ammunition here.

They`re not going to use it right now, but if we get closer to the fall,
closer to these primaries and they`re still worried, there`s a lot they can
dump on him.

O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne, I think if they want to use it, they should use it
earlier to get rid of him faster. I by the way, don`t think he`s ever
going to get into the -- up in the polls the way Newt Gingrich did.

I don`t think he -- this thing is going to go that far. But the trouble
with him is, he does get the microphone, he will be heard.

And so, if you want to stop him from being listened to when he makes these
noises, you might want to start doing those ads earlier.

DIONNE: No, I agree with that. I agree with what Steve said about how
they`re going to go after him.

But if he ever gets to the point where Newt Gingrich was after South
Carolina, it`s way too late for the Republican Party.

Because that will mean that the party has really been trumpified(ph). That
his voice will be so important in defining the party that all their fears
about losing Latino voters, plus a lot of other rational people in the
country will be realized.

And so yes, I think that they`re going to have to stop him earlier. What
you might start seeing are critical pieces in conservative opinion
magazines, saying wait a minute, he is not really a conservative, he`s not
really one of us.

But I think they`ve got to push him aside earlier or he`s going to make a
much bigger mess for them.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what he said to Katy today about Jeb Bush and
Hillary Clinton tying them together. Let`s listen to this.


TRUMP: Hillary will never take us to the promised land. Hillary will be a
disaster as a president. Jeb will be very poor as a president. No energy.


O`DONNELL: And Kasie Hunt, I can imagine that would be one of Reince
Priebus` talking points on the phone today to Donald is, why don`t you just
-- when you`re talking about Hillary, why don`t you just leave Jeb out of

Stop saying Jeb will be a terrible president because he`s probably going to
be our nominee.

HUNT: In many ways Jeb Bush is the person who has the most to lose from
this Trumpmania that we`re experiencing.

Because Trump is lighting up the very parts of the Republican Party that
everyone has been concerned.

And the establishment has been concerned, won`t ultimately get excited
about Jeb Bush. These are the -- that`s the sort of reactionary kind of
the red meat conservative base.

You know, whether or not -- there`s always been this big question about
whether or not Jeb Bush is going to be able to appeal to those people.

And so to have somebody out there every day beating the drum against him,
and that`s what Trump has done in almost every one of these interviews.

It`s just something that at the very least poses a challenge, and imagine
if they`re standing up on that debate stage next to each other.

And I think that`s the next question for Reince Priebus and the Republican
Party. They almost intentionally stayed away from deciding who was going
to be on this debate stage.

They left it up to the TV networks and that might be coming back to bite
them pretty hard here.

O`DONNELL: E.J. Dionne --

DIONNE: And that`s why Jeb --

O`DONNELL: Go ahead, E.J. --

DIONNE: Should -- yes, that`s why Jeb should be the guy who uses Trump on
his own behalf. That I think he has a lot to gain here. He`s never going
to get the voters who say right now that they are for Donald Trump.

But he can win support from the parts of the party that say we want to stop
this, we want a reasonable nominee. And I think he`s been surprisingly
reticent in taking Trump on.

And I think he is going to have to be more aggressive, partly because he is
going to have to look tough against Trump, as Trump says these awful things
about him.

KORNACKI: Can I -- can I just --

O`DONNELL: Let me -- let me just -- we`re going to have to break it there,
E.J. gets the last word on this segment. E.J., thank you very much for
joining us tonight. Really appreciate it --

DIONNE: Good to be with you --

O`DONNELL: Well, Donald Trump is pushing the Republican Party in a
direction they don`t want to go.

And finally, one Republican presidential candidate has found his voice in
opposition to Trumpism(ph), that`s next.



TRUMP: I will make that wall impenetrable, OK, impenetrable. You`re not to
worry about how high it will be and Mexico will pay for that wall.


O`DONNELL. Finally, a Republican candidate for president has found his
voice in arguing against Trumpism.


with the Hispanics. The first rule of politics when you`re in a hole is
stop digging. Some of these take a shovel out of Donald Trump`s hands when
it comes to casting a shadow over all these people to put them in the group
of being rapist and drug dealers.

Not only is it wrong, you`re dealing -- you`re digging a bigger hole and I
hope every Republican candidate would say the following.

We disagree with Ronald -- Donald Trump in this regard, that most of the
people here illegally are good hard working people and if we`re not willing
to say that as a party, we`re going to lose in 2016.


O`DONNELL: Now, if you don`t believe everything Donald Trump says, you are
not alone. Even Donald Trump doesn`t believe everything Donald Trump says
especially when he says things like this.


TRUMP: And I`ll tell you something, if I get the nomination, I`ll win the
Latino vote. I will win it because I`m going to create jobs. Hillary
Clinton is not going to be able to create jobs I will tell you right now.
Neither is Jeb Bush going to be able to create jobs. I will create jobs
and the Latinos will have jobs that they don`t have right now and I will
win that vote and everyone thinks, "Oh gee, Trump is not going to do well
with that vote." I`ll do better with that vote than anybody.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Juan Cartagena, President and General Council
of Latino Justice. So there, you know, there`s Donald pretending that he`s
going to win any of those votes. But the voice of Lindsey Graham today is
stepping out of the Republican crowd and finally making that statement. He
is the first to do that with any kind of force and authority the way he did
to that.

it`s about time. I think we`ve been hearing these incredible
representations by Donald Trump and what he`s going to do, what he can do,
how he feels about Mexico for the days now. It`s about time that this
reaction and this notion that catering to the most extreme being the
Republican Party is actually going to count the Latino vote is ludicrous
and it`s going to be the opposite. Donald (inaudible) remember this and
that we favor very well.

O`DONNELL: And what about the issue that Republicans are worried about
that this is Trumpism factor will in fact hurt the Republican candidate no
matter who it is even if that candidate hasn`t been saying what Donald
Trump`s been saying.

CARTAGENA: This isn`t true to that of course but, you know, there`s a long
time between now and what happens next year, you know, and people tend to
figure out these things and things can really dive down to some extent.
But I think the way he -- Mr. Trump has come out against so hard, against
these notions about who is coming across the boarder and what they do when
they get here, is fascinating. This incredible surge unity move in to let
the community, and move in to nationality that compose, you know, TNT has
not been seen that often, and this is a guy organizing for us and this will
not be for Donald.

Katy, there`s many great moments in the interview today. This is one of my
favorites, when you asked Donald Trump when is the last time expert on the
southern border, Donald Trump was actually at or near, anywhere the
southern border. Let`s listen to this.


TUR: When was the last time you were at the border?

TRUMP: I`ve been to the border probably three or four times over the
years, and I have many people that live around the area. I`m going to
Arizona this weekend where they want to talk to me because Arizona is in
some time, the most popular person in Arizona because of my stance. And
I`m going to be there this weekend.

TUR: But when was the last time that you were there?

TRUMP: Probably three years ago.

TUR: So how do you -- if you haven`t been there in three years, how do you
that it is such a problem.

TRUMP: Because I knew it may have been as worse now. It was terrible then
and it`s worst now. It`s worst now than it`s ever been. We don`t even
have a border. People were just flowing through like water. There is no
border right now.


O`DONNELL: Katy, politics doesn`t use social science. It uses anecdote.
It lives by anecdote. And so, these killing that we have in San Francisco
were Juan Sanchez illegal immigrant who apparently have been sent back five
times and convicted of felonies in the past. He killed Kate Steinle there.
He was accused of felony, state Kate Steinle in San Francisco. That`s all
Trump needs. He needs the one example. And in politics, in the world of
anecdotal politics, the one example proves the case and that`s what he`s
trying to do now. He mentioned that in your interview today.

TUR: Yeah. He`s using that as a rallying point for his word. He`s using
that as his prime example of what he`s talking about with immigrants. But
the fact is, according to Pew research is that the more immigrants come in,
the crime rates in this country go down. So his facts don`t line up with
what he`s trying to prove.

But it is -- and this is a terrible way of putting a good timing in some
sense to have an example like this that he can rally around. Of course,
it`s a tragedy and nobody would wish this upon anybody. But he is using it
as something to galvanize the -- his base essentially, to say that these
illegal immigrants are here and they`re dangerous, and they`re going to
hurt people, and they should be sent out immediately.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what he -- let`s see -- actually this is Bush
and I want to listen to Jeb Bush today in New Hampshire talking about this,
and the different tonal qualities which I`m not sure are very helpful to
Bush and he`s communal about. But there`s no red meat in anything he says
for republican voters here.

Let`s listen to what he says.


BUSH: Why not create a path to legal status where you have a provisional
work permit. You pay a fine. You learn English. You work. You work.
You don`t get federal government`s support. If you committed a crime,
you`re deported. But if you don`t, you earn over an extended period of
time, legal status.


O`DONNELL: Steve Kornacki, there`s someone trying to talk a form of sense
to a party that`s getting carried away with Trumpism.

KORNACKI: Right, and I think about how that plays that in the debate stage
a month from that.


KORNACKI: This is a debate we`re having over immigration and that is the
statement that Jeb Bush is making up on that stage, and Donald Trump is on
that stage. And then Donald Trump is probably interrupting in the middle
of that and saying "Jeb, Jeb"

O`DONNELL: Right, right.

KORNACKI: . all he was doing is tell us the same things we`ve been hearing
for 30 years and guess what, it`s worst that ever. You are elusive. He`s
-- that`s the pit and the problem is when you strip away all the rhetoric,
when you strip away all the theatrics in Donald Trump, and you look at the
actual policy issues, he is aware that the sort of the guts of the
Republican Party is an emphasis on overwhelming border security first is
bashing sanctuary cities and it`s basically shunning any politicians who
says they support any kind of pathway to legalization, pathway to

And so, that puts down something a very commanding position on the issue.
If you`re going to try to argue new ones with him, new ones is hard to win
on. The one thing that I would say is I don`t know if Jed Bush is the guy
who is equipped to do this. We talked about which of these Republican
candidates on the stage might be willing to sort of go toe to toe with

Somebody in Chris Christie`s over this told me, he is looking forward to
being on that stage with Donald Trump and the whole Christie strategy, the
whole Christie comeback strategy rests on having one of those debate
moments. Like we were saying new Gingrich had back in 2012 where he`s poll
number were tripled or quadrupled over night, and I think there is some
thinking in Christie. Well that Chris Christies, with that personality,
that blustery, in your face, sit down and shut up personality, that he
could be the guy who gets into a spot with Donald Trump on the stage.

And Trump starts calling him a loser and tell him to -- and Christie goes
right back at him and get offs that line that quiets Donald Trump. I think
there`s some thought he could do that.

CARTAGENA: And get Trump (inaudible).

KORNACKI: Yeah. But, yeah, there`s one out there who could, right?

TUR: Doesn`t New Jersey, New York and two of.

KORNACKI: Along with that, you know.

O`DONNELL: Mike, let`s get a last work in here in from Kasie. Go ahead,
please, quickly.

HUNT: The only thing I would say Lawrence is that, when it comes to that
debate stage, I would challenge you to nail down Donald Trump on any...


HUNT: ... policy -- concrete policy issue at all. And this immigration
thing is really good example because he`s actually said, we`re going to
have to wait and see whether or not I would support a path to citizenship
for undocumented immigrants. And that`s puts him potentially in a more
moderate place than Jeb Bush.

O`DONNELL: Yeah, I mean one thing Kasie seem to be sure today, I think
it`s how difficult it would be to debate Donald Trump because it`s like
debating Jell-O, it`s like you can`t even...

HUNT: You can`t take him down.

O`DONNELL: . he`s all over the place. Juan Cartagena, Steve Kornacki, E.
J. Dionne who joined before and Kasie Hunt and also Katy Tur, thank you all
for joining us, I really appreciate it.

Coming up, a historic move in New State today, the governor has empowered
the Attorney General to investigate every killing by police in every police
department in the state. New York`s Attorney General will join us for an
exclusive interview.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let`s just sit over here and see what`s going on. Are
we opening? OK, wait a minute. Panels up and, are we up? We`re up.
We`re getting trades? It looks like we are up.


O`DONNELL: That was the confused scene at the New York Stock Exchange at
3:10 P.M. this afternoon, nearly four hours after trade was shutdown.
Tonight the New York Exchange says that, "Conflict configuration issues
were to blame for the disruption." That glitch was just one of three major
technical issues wrecking havoc today at roughly the same time that the
Stock Exchange shutdown.

Visitors to The Wall Street Journal`s homepage were greeted with this error
message. And if you plan to fly tomorrow or even Friday you may still feel
the effect of this morning`s nearly two-hour grounding of all United
Airlines flights. 59 united flights were canceled and more than 1,000 were

The New York Stock Exchange, The Wall Street Journal, and United Airlines
all insist that today`s very coincidental outages were all internal
problems and not any kind of cyber attack.

Up next, a historic move by the governor of New York can change the way
killings by police are investigated.


O`DONNELL: For weeks America watched the video of Eric Garner being
arrested on Staten Island on suspicion of having committed the misdemeanor
of selling cigarettes without a license.

We learned that the chokehold that Officer Daniel Pantaleo used to subdue
Eric Garner was a maneuver band by the rules of the NYPD. We learned from
the autopsy report that when Eric Garner said, "I can`t breathe," he was in
effect announcing what would be his cause of death. The autopsy report
said the chokehold eventually killed him.

And then, we learned that the grand jury run by the district attorney on
Staten Island refuse to bring any charges against any of the police
officers involved in that arrest in that video. And everyone across the
political spectrum was shocked.

One of the people who was upset was Governor Andrew Cuomo who said, "If
there are improvements to be made and lessons to be learned, we at the
state level are ready to act to better the system."

And today, with Eric Garner`s mother sitting beside him, the Governor acted
signing an executive order assigning a special prosecutor in district
attorney general`s office to investigate all killings by police of unarmed
people and the cases where there is a question about whether a person was


GOV. ANDREW CUOMO, (D) NEW YORK: It`s a day of action. It`s a day of
fairness. It`s a day of justice. It`s a day that I think should go a long
way toward restoring people`s trust in our system of criminal justice and
trust in our system of criminal justice and trust in government.


O`DONNELL: New York`s attorney general Eric Schneiderman now has a duty
that none of the 49 other attorneys general in the United States have,
investigating the killings by all the police departments in his state.
Attorney General Schneiderman will join us for an exclusive interview next.


O`DONNELL: New York`s attorney general will join me next to discuss his
new power to investigate killings by police in New York State.



CUOMO: The attorney general will be a standing prosecutor to handle any
case where a law enforcement officer kills an unarmed civilian or kills a
civilian and there is a question as to whether or not the civilian is armed
and dangerous.

This situation that we`re addressing is a crisis. It`s a crisis in this
state and it is a crisis nationwide. It is a crisis of confidence in the
criminal justice system.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now in exclusive interview with New York attorney
general Eric Schneiderman. So did you need the governor`s authority or to
do this kinds of investigations, could have taken this on your own?

authority under New York`s law and constitution to designate the attorney
general special prosecutor to supersede district attorneys for any purpose.
The order today was of unusual scope. I mean, really it was a ground
breaking order empowering me to investigate and if necessary prosecute, any
situation in which a civilian is killed by a contact with a law enforcement
officer. Civilians unarmed or as noted, there`s a question to whether they
are unarmed.

So this encompasses all the counties of the state, all the district
attorneys, all the other law enforcement officers and we`re setting up a
special investigation and prosecution unit. But this is the first time if
something like this has ever happened in New York.

O`DONNELL: And there`s a history to this going back to the Garner case.
But the governor actually tried to get the legislator to do this
legislatively, they failed to do that and then he just took executive
action, as we saw today.

SCHNEIDERMAN: Yes, so the governor and legislative leaders try to workout
a bill that would provide a more comprehensive solution, because I think
everybody recognizes on a lot of different parts of political spectrum.
This is not just a liberal versus conservative thing.

Even a lot of conservatives recognize their criminal justice system is not
working, it`s not trusted. But the public has lost their confidence in a
system that requires the public trust the function. You can`t have a
functioning criminal justice system if the public won`t cooperate with the
police, if they don`t believe in the process. If they don`t think the
justice system is just.

O`DONNELL: So, let`s walk through a theoretical case sort of frame it on
an Eric Garner case. A case like that occurs in, you know, three months
from now, OK. What would we see happened that is different?

SCHNEIDERMAN: Well, as soon as the death is reported, my office would step
in, my special investigation unit and would take over from the district

O`DONNELL: Take over. You`re superseding you use that word. You`re
taking it away from the district.



SCHNEIDERMAN: This is an order for that to require us to supersede the
D.A. We would be in communication with the district attorney because
they`re the first one on the scene and they would -- have to work with us
to determine if this in fact is a case that comes within our jurisdiction.
But we`ve moved in, we participated in the questioning of the witnesses if
necessary to convene a grand jury. Our office would convene a grand jury.

So, we would have a special unit that essentially serves as the prosecutor.
For this narrow set of cases unfortunately it`s not that many cases...


SCHNEIDERMAN: . where an unarmed civilian is killed through a contact with
a law enforcement officer and we hope we`re not going to have very many of
them. We hope we have none of them. But we`re prepared to thoroughly and
impartially investigate with the goal of restoring this confidence that you
can see people all over the state and a travel state.

They`ve just have lost the sense that there`s one set of rules for
everyone, that the system just provides the justice that were promised us,
sort of fundamental part of being in America.

O`DONNELL: I think was the Eric Garner video here in New York that sort of
broke down the wall on this because it use to be some people saw this as a
problem, some people didn`t but it was hard to find people who weren`t
stunned that the grand jury watch that video and found absolutely nothing
to charge anyone with in that video.

And so, what kind of manpower do you expect to devote to this in attorney
general`s office?

SCHNEIDERMAN: But we`ve already set up a unit with a group of very
experience prosecutors. We have investigators. We -- the local law
enforcement officers and the local district attorneys are supposed to
cooperate with us. The governor has directed them to do so.

But we`re confident that we have the experience prosecutors we need to take
over and one of these cases. If we need more resources we`ll get more
resources. It`s not something that really is that expensive in a context
to the state budget.

The most important thing is to get it right. And we have to be transparent
about the process. We have to show impartiality, we have to show that
there`s one standard for everyone.

O`DONNELL: Does this change the composition of the police investigators
who would respond to a scene. Well we now see state police officers
responding to a scene in addition to the local police department.

SCHNEIDERMAN: The local police departments are always the first on the
scene. We`ve been working with them. But investigators from our office
and perhaps from the state police could be participating. It`s really
depends on the case-by-case basis.

And larger police departments like the New York City Police Department.


SCHNEIDERMAN: They have the resources to handle this on their own. They
have a special unit that does nothing but look in to these sorts of cases.
And smaller jurisdictions they do need help from the outside. We`re
prepared to put whatever resources we need in to serious responsibility.
But we got to get the trust back in the criminal justice.

O`DONNELL: How does it feel to be the only attorney general out of the 50
in the United States who has this power?

SCHNEIDERMAN: I think it`s going to be state by state solution. But I
think other states are going to take action as is goes for. This is a
national problem. This lost of confidence is a national problem. And this
is -- there`s nothing more fundamental to America than the notion of equal
justice under law and that sense to the public that we have equal justice
has to be restored.

O`DONNELL: Attorney General Eric Schneiderman and get tonight`s last word.
Thank you very much. Really appreciate it.


O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.


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