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'The Rachel Maddow Show' for Wednesday, July 15th, 2015

Read the transcript to the Wednesday show (change to correct date)

Date: July 15, 2015
Guest: Joe McQuaid, Ernest Moniz

CHRIS HAYES, "ALL IN" HOST: That is "ALL IN" for this evening. THE
RACHEL MADDOW SHOW starts right now.

Good evening, Rachel.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Great work, man.
Excellent shows.

HAYES: Thank you.

MADDOW: I`m loving this. "ALL IN" in America water stuff is just

Anyway, all right. I want to thank you at home for joining us this
hour. It`s nice to have you with us tonight.

All right. Are you ready? Ted Cruz footage playing with Barbies,
take one.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You were like my kid brother. You know? I
think I must have done so many girly things, made you play my Barbies, made
you dress up and do all the fun things that kids do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Start the answer looking at him and then come look
at me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just got to get your hair out of your face.
We can`t see you in this camera.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Start the answer looking at him. Ted, maybe you
can set her up again.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Start the answer and then turn and look at me.


what it was like growing up in our family?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, Ted, growing up with you was unbelievable.


MADDOW: So, that was Ted Cruz footage playing with Barbies, take one.

Now, here`s take two after they reset the director interjects. She
gets the instruction about the meaningful eye contact. They moved the
hair, they positioned the hair slightly differently over the right
shoulder. So, here`s take two, which ends up having kind of a different
vibe. Also, it is weird that they`re not looking at each other.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was my kid brother. You were the guy that I
hung out with. My little side kick. And I made you play Barbies, I made
you go out to the play ground with me. We did dress up together. And it
was so much fun. I just think that --

CRUZ: You know, I still remember when I was probably 4 or 5, and you
and Miriam and Roxana and my sisters dressed me up as a bald eagle --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We dressed you up like a bald eagle.

CRUZ: -- on the Fourth of July, and stuck me on our dog jingles. I
mean, I was your giant doll and you had me walking through the house
dressed as a bald eagle on this golden lab.


MADDOW: Before you accuse me, this is not one of those bad lip
reading videos where I have created a fake thing that Ted Cruz looks like
he might be saying but I really actually invented the words and you`re
saying something more predictable.

No. This is -- this is real. This is unedited footage. This is one
portion of several hours -- several hours of footage of Ted Cruz having
conversations with people, mostly members of his family. This is Ted Cruz
in conversation with his cousin and his aunt.

There`s also Ted Cruz in conversation with some of his other cousins.
There`s Ted Cruz in conversation with his wife. At one point, they have a
long discussion, a long talk that Ted Cruz has with his nephew who he says
works at a chocolate factually. His campaign has uploaded hours and hours
and hours of footage of Ted Cruz having conversations like this, sometimes
interrupted by the director, but mostly just talking.

And they have uploaded this footage specifically at the request of the
Ted Cruz super PAC.

See, technically the super PACs and the campaigns are not allowed to
coordinate. So the pro Ted Cruz super PAC today released a public press
release calling out generically to the country to say that they believe the
Ted Cruz campaign who they can`t talk to directly, they believe the Ted
Cruz campaign really ought to upload to the Internet a, quote, "library of
creative", which means they`re telling the Ted Cruz campaign to put online
a bunch of footage of Ted Cruz that other people, like for example his
super PAC, can use to make inspirational pro-Ted Cruz campaign ads, or web
videos, or other things that promote Ted Cruz, even though they don`t come
from the Ted Cruz campaign.

I mean, if you`re not allowed to coordinate with Ted Cruz` campaign,
you can`t just ask directly for some video of the candidate. You can`t
just have them, you know, e-mail you the video. They have to put it online
publicly wherever can get to it, and then you have to pretend like you just
came across it, oh, look at this, hours of Ted Cruz talking to his cousin.

I mean, the only downside of this strategy is that, of course, once
you put it out publicly, the rest of us can all come across it, too, which
mean if you for whatever reason have any need for Ted Cruz saying this, now
you can have this for free as well.


CRUZ: I mean, I was your giant doll and you had me walking through
house dressed as a bald eagle.


MADDOW: If you need Ted Cruz saying that for any reason, personal,
political, prurient, any reason that starts with P, I mean, you`ve got it.
And you`ve got hours of this footage to choose from.

And all of the campaigns will eventually do this, or something like
this for their super PACs. Whether or not they make their super PACs go
through the humiliating rigmarole of publicly asking for this or not, all
of the campaign will basically end up doing this, they`ll be posting what
they call B-roll of the candidates so the PACs can then use that B-roll to
make ads.

Now, most of the campaigns will be smart enough to not include the
audio, but the Ted Cruz folks kept the audio in. I`m your giant doll.

So, that means the revolutionary committee to avenge jingles will have
access to all this stuff someday too. Oh, jingles.

For the first time today, we got news of one of the candidates` super
PACs doing something really smart actually that might conceivably helped
their candidate in exactly the way that candidate needs help. It`s a group
of super PACs that are all supporting Rick Perry. And those super PACs
supporting Rick Perry, they announced today that because of the way the FOX
News Channel has taken over the Republican process this year, the Rick
Perry super PACs, they are completely changing the way they`re trying to
campaign for Rick Perry. They`re getting smart about it. They`re getting
focused on what they need to focus on.

I mean, if Rick Perry is excluded from the Republican presidential
debates, effectively, he`s not even running for president anymore, right?
If he`s not in the debates, nobody is considering his nomination. If he is
not being considered for the nomination, there`s no point right in having
him tried to win New Hampshire or trying to win the Iowa caucuses.

So, the Rick Perry super PAC today decided first things first --
instead of focusing on the early states like Iowa and New Hampshire and
South Carolina like candidates always have in the past, today, they
announced they would stop those efforts. They would start ignoring the
early states and instead they`re going to put all their resources, all
their money, hundreds of thousands of dollars, as fast as they can into ads
for Rick Perry to run on the FOX News Channel, and on other national cable

Because FOX News has decided that they`re going to only allow ten
Republican candidates to compete for the presidential nomination by being
up there on that debate stage. The rest of the candidates will be excluded
from the debate. The only way to make that top 10 is to do well in
national polls.

And so, the Rick Perry Super PACs are being rational. They`re putting
all of their eggs into that basket, because they have to. I mean, Rick
Perry`s national poll numbers are now really the only things that matters.
Rick Perry`s national poll numbers are the existential determining factor
for his run for the presidency. It`s the existential thing, which
determines whether or not he really is running for president, only his
national numbers matter.

So, FOX News set that rule for the Republican primary, and now, FOX
News gets to cash in on that role, by getting all of the Rick Perry super
PAC money in the form of his national ads. It`s a nice racket, right?
Only your national poll numbers matter, your national poll numbers among
Republican primary viewers. What`s the media you want to advertise on if
you`re targeting the national primary?

But the candidates have no choice in the matter. They`ve really just
got to play along. The Rick Perry folks started doing that today and they
need to. Right now, by our calculations, Rick Perry has almost no chance
of getting into the debate. And Ted Cruz only barely does. FOX has been
really opaque about which national polls they`re going to use to decide
who`s going to be allowed to debate and who`s not.

But our calculations right now, of the ten slots available on stage,
seven of them are pretty safe for these candidates you see here. Jeb Bush,
Donald Trump, Scott Walker, Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, Ben Carson, Mike
Huckabee. The eighth slot is maybe going to Ted Cruz. It`s a little
wobbly there.

The other slots on stage, these nine candidates at least are fighting
it out amongst themselves to try to get one of those last two spots on
stage. And we have generously moved Ted Cruz up to the stage there. But
he really is sort of on the bubble. I mean, his national poll numbers are
within the margin of error on almost every national poll, and there are
still a couple weeks to go in polling before this is all decided.

So, Ted Cruz will need his super PAC to start pulling for him too the
way that Rick Perry super PACs are pulling for him. Hence, the "you dress
me up like a little doll" footage released today. Did I mention that
there`s hours of that they posted online today?

But the Ted Cruz campaign also today started just overtly organizing,
campaigning basically to get FOX News to let their candidate into the
debate. Or at least for FOX News to start explaining the exact rules by
which they`re going to make these decisions so the candidates can
strategize better about what they have to do in order to satisfy the FOX
News Channel so that they`d be allowed on stage to debate. today reporting that the director of research and
analytics for the Ted Cruz campaign has now written to at least some if not
all of the other Republican presidential campaigns today to try to organize
them to basically take on FOX News. They`re asking the other Republican
candidates to consider joining with us in pressuring FOX about the
standards for how they`re going to be letting people into the debate.

The Cruz campaign is making a number of different suggestions that the
only polls that count toward the debate ranking should be telephone polls
and not online polls, that the only polls that count should have at least
1,000 interviews with Republican primary voters, even though apparently no
polls conducted this year anywhere have included a sample size of
Republican voters that large.

Weirdly, this is very strange to me. The Ted Cruz campaign is also
suggesting that the FOX debate cut-off polls should only be polls that are
conducted Sunday through Thursday, only week night polls. Polls conducted
on a Friday or Saturday are wholly inappropriate somehow and shouldn`t be
allowed to influence who is allowed to run for president in the Republican

It is so weird that this is their process, that this is how we`re
going to get who`s allowed to run for president in this country, but this
is what the Cruz pain is now lobbying the other candidates on, to try to
get them all together to pressure FOX News. Quote, "Once I hear back from
you and the other campaigns, we will put together a joint letter to be sent
to FOX."

Senator Cruz also took the train from Washington today to New York
City to try one other strategy to get himself into the debates.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you meeting with Ted Cruz today? If so, how
did that come about?

Cruz called me. And I don`t know why I`m meeting him, to be honest.


MADDOW: Donald Trump appearing on MSNBC this morning saying that Ted
Cruz called him and asked him for, asked Donald Trump for a meeting.
Donald Trump said yes. He`s taking that meeting, although he doesn`t know
why. He said explicitly he has no idea what the meeting was about.


TRUMP: I like him. He called me. He wanted to meet and we are going
to meet. What it is about, I have absolutely no idea.


MADDOW: I know. I know what it is about. I know what it is about.

In part because the existence of this meeting was leaked to the press
before it happened today.

Are you familiar with the concept of drafting? Not like drafting like
riding or drafting like being drafted. I mean, like drafting behind
something? It is a very dangerous thing to do, both on the highway behind
a big truck or behind your fellow bike racers in the Tour de France. It is
dangerous but people do it any way.

Drafting is getting behind somebody who is doing better than you and
hoping they will sweep you along in their wake.

Under the FOX News criteria of who is allowed to compete for the
Republican presidential nomination, Donald Trump is doing great. He is
definitely, definitely, definitely going to make the debates.

Ted Cruz -- he`s on the bubble. And so, Ted Cruz in this somewhat
desperate effort with all the guys at the bottom of the polls are making,
trying to get into the debates, Ted Cruz is essentially trying to draft off
the popularity of Donald Trump. Yes, sure, Mr. Trump horrifies a lot of
people in the Republican Party, but enough Republican voters like Donald
Trump that he really is a safe bet for the debate stage in three weeks and
Ted Cruz is not. So Ted Cruz is trying to get himself a little of that.


REPORTER: Senator Cruz, so on your meeting with Donald Trump today,
he says that you called for the meeting. What do you plan to discuss? Why
are you meeting with Donald Trump?

CRUZ: Oh, I`m a big fan of Donald Trump`s. I`ve spent a lot of time
meeting with all sorts of friends of mine. And I`ll say this -- I think
Donald Trump is bringing a bold, brash voice to this presidential race.

One of the reasons you`re seeing so many 2016 candidates go out of
their way to smack Donald Trump is they don`t like a politician that speaks
directly about the challenges of illegal immigration. I, for one, am
grateful that Donald Trump is highlighting these issues.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNBC: Donald Trump is one of the opponents that you
have in this race. Do you see him as a plausible occupant of the Oval
Office? Plausible president of the United States? Or are you simply
defending him because you expect him to collapse and you want to inherit
his votes?


CRUZ: Let`s be clear. I am running to win. I would like to inherit
all their votes. So, at the end of the day, I will readily plead guilty to


CRUZ: But I will also say I like Donald.


MADDOW: Ted Cruz is only slightly more likely to win the Republican
presidential nomination than I am. Ted Cruz is -- he`s not going to win.
I`m sure -- he`s not going to win.

But Ted Cruz is not even going to be allowed to compete unless he can
grab some of that Donald Trump national polling magic and use it to get
himself unto the debate stage in the first place. So, that`s what he`s
doing and that`s what FOX News has turned the Republican presidential
campaign into this year.

This is what these guys are doing now, instead of going on town halls
and meeting people and going to local campaign events in New Hampshire and
Iowa, which is what they would be doing in any other year. Iowa, and New
Hampshire and South Carolina too, they are the states being cut out of the
process in a way they really never have before. And they are vocally
unhappy about it.

It started in New Hampshire with dozens of prominent Republicans and
party officials wrote to FOX News and the Republican Party asking them on
please cut this out. Stop doing it this way, stop intervening in the
presidential primary the way they are this year. Let it happen the way it
usually does, let all the qualified candidates um to debate. Let the early
state voters make the call about who is a real candidate and who`s not
instead, of FOX News making that call on its own made up criteria that not
incidentally benefits FOX News` bottom line.

It was New Hampshire Republicans who started lobbying FOX and the
Republican Party first to change what they`re planning to do this year.

Then, it was Iowa Republicans. Iowa`s long time Republican governor,
Terry Branstad, and lots of other Republican officials in Iowa asking FOX
to please not do it this way, please change your plans.

Then, it was South Carolina. More than 100 party officials and
activists and prominent conservatives in South Carolina writing to FOX
News, writing to the Republican Party saying please stop this, please stop
killing the early states and our role in picking a presidential nominee
which we satisfy very seriously. Don`t take this process away from us.
Who the heck are you basically?

Well, now, those complaints from the candidates who are in danger of
being boxed out simply because the FOX News Channel says they`re not going
to be allowed to compete based on FOX`s say-so. The complaints of those
candidates and the complaints of those early states, they are coming
together in a concrete plan to steal the thunder of the FOX News Channel
and take process back.

And the man who is spearheading that plan is our next guest. Stay
with us.


MADDOW: So, we have a lot more to come tonight, on what has been a
very busy news day. And I`m excited to say that we`ve got an interview
next with the man who has turned the entire Republican presidential
nominating process upside down, with one announcement today.

And tonight, here for the interview is real life member of President
Obama`s cabinet who got a huge national shout-out from President Obama
himself today.

Lots still to come. Stay with us.



TRUMP: So the total is $8,737,540,000. Now, I`m not doing that --
I`m not doing that to brag because you know what? I don`t have to brag. I
don`t have to, believe it or not.

I`m doing that to say that that`s the kind of thinking our country
needs. We need that thinking. We have the opposite thinking.

We have losers. We have losers. We have people that don`t have it.


MADDOW: Donald Trump when he announced his run for the presidency
said unprompted and unsolicited, nobody was asking but he said, while
announcing that he was running for president that he was worth precisely
$8,737,540,000. Maybe.

He also said in the same speech, in the same paragraph of the same
speech that he was probably worth more than that. Maybe. Even though he
released that very precise number, he also said at the time that he was
worth way more than that.


TRUMP: So, I have a total net worth and now with the increase, it
will be well over $10 billion.


MADDOW: Donald Trump when he announced he was running for president
said he was worth $8.754 billion. But also that he was worth more than $10

Well, today, he says he released more information to the FEC
documenting that he is worth more than $10 billion. I should be clear. He
said that his net worth, if I`m going to quote here directly, "is in excess
of TEN BILLION DOLLARS!" He said it in all capital letters. He spelled it
out in all capital letters. It`s literally a printed press release that
has a part where he screams.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One million dollars.


MADDOW: The reason that Donald Trump is screaming in print about his
net worth is more than just funny, is because as it has become clearer and
clearer, the FOX News Channel is actively intervening in the process so
they will choose which candidates are allowed to compete for the nomination
by debating. They will pick ten candidates and the rest will not be
allowed to debate. As that has become more clear that FOX is really
intervening in the process by doing this, FOX News has understandably come
under a lot of pressure from their friends, you know, from the Republican
establishment, and the media in the early voting states in particular.

And those early voting states are used to making those winnowing the
field decisions for the country rather than having some cable news channel
make those decisions. Since they`ve been getting that pressure, FOX, to my
eye, has several times changed the rules about who gets into that debate
and how the decision will be made.

Now, they never say they are changing the rules. But it`s apparent
that they have changed the rules several times. The first change is that
they said in addition to the 10 people, they`re going to let into the
debate, the other candidates who aren`t let into the debate, they`ll be
allowed into a different event, a forum, a kiddie pool pseudo-consolation
prize thing.

They said they always intend that, but they announced it late into the
process and that was apparently the first concession that they made to the
pressure they`re under for taking over the Republican political process
this way.

The second concession they made is that they said they would require
candidates to turn in their financial disclosures to the FEC before the
first debate. Now, they had said all along that candidates had to meet all
FEC requirements, but candidates had apparently not been under the
impression that by saying that, FOX News was requiring them to get all
their forms in. A lot of candidates had filed for extensions. They filed
for extensions and didn`t seem to be on track to have their forms actually
turned in before the FOX News debate.

Well, now, FOX says they`ve got to get the forms in. Extensions won`t
cut it.

There`s been speculation on the Republican side that that new criteria
from FOX was designed specifically to kick Donald Trump out of debate
because many people believed that he would never actually file his personal
financial details with the FEC. But now, Mr. Trump has done so -- $10

The third concession that FOX is being pressured for now is from the
candidates, led by the Ted Cruz campaign. They`re trying on get the
networks to explain which polls they`re going to use, which polls they`re
going to count when they`re coming up with their magic ten candidate cut-
off number.

But as this fight continues, inside Republican politics, the early
voting states of Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina, they appear to
basically just be over it, over this whole mess.

"The New Hampshire Union Leader", the newspaper there in New
Hampshire, had previously announced they would hold a competing event to
participate in instead of the FOX News debate in August. They`ve now
announced that their event will be held in New Hampshire but it will be
three days in advance of the FOX News debate. It will be held August 3rd
in New Hampshire and it will not be just a New Hampshire event. It will be
a New Hampshire, Iowa, and South Carolina event, because it`s going to
cosponsored by the "Post and Courier" newspaper in South Carolina, by "The
Gazette" newspaper in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, and by the New Hampshire Union
Leader", which originally proposed this idea.

So, FOX News thought they were going to be first. FOX News thought
that they were going to be giving the country the first look at these
Republican candidates for president. But now, with this new announcement,
at least these candidates and ultimately probably all of them are going to
be doing a different event first. A non-FOX debate, one for which there is
not a magic ten cut off and which will put these early states, at least in
a small way, back in some bit of control in a process that they`ve been
used to running now for decades.

Joining us now is the man who spearheaded, publisher of "The New
Hampshire Union Leader", Joe McQuaid.

Mr. McQuaid, it`s a real pleasure you have to here. Thanks very much
for being here.

very welcome. You`ve been on the side of New Hampshire in the early states
from the get-go. And I appreciate that.

MADDOW: I still think that I can`t really believe that my friends at
FOX wanted to intervene this overtly into the process, that they wanted to
warp the process as much as they had by sticking with this criteria.

I wonder if you feel like you`re still pressuring them. You`d like
them on change what they`re planning or if it`s fully baked?

MCQUAID: I was sort of hoping because I do have a day job. I was
sort of hoping that FOX would listen to the entreaties from the Republicans
in the various states and do a mixed up two 90-minute debates with top
polling candidates, intermixed with some of the lower polling candidates.

And frankly, other than they are now, I think they got their back up
and their pride up. That would be a better show, don`t you think, to have
two, either on the same night or different nights?

MADDOW: And, you know, seeing, like Chris Christie is probably not
going to make the mix, as he really fun guy to have in the debate. Carly
Fiorina is the only woman in the mix in this giant field of male
candidates. It would be really nice to see her in the mix, and it would be
nice to see people like that mix it up. Not just with other people who
aren`t being allowed to run but to see them mix it up with guys in the top

Do you think you`re going to be able to get some of that dynamic at
your event that you`re holding three days ahead of FOX?

MCQUAID: Yes. It`s funny. As of right now, we have ten candidates,
which is the limit for FOX, it`s a nice base for us to grow on, and you
mentioned a couple who are in the top ten. Dr. Carson is in the top ten.
And I think the last time I looked, Ted Cruz was in the top ten as well.

And I would be shocked if FOX didn`t find a way to have Carly Fiorina
on that stage which may to go your question that what polls will be used
and win. And I was listening to your run up to this and about the
candidates and whether they had been here that much, because they have to
concentrate on FOX.

There were so many of them, it is hard to keep count how many times
they are here. The impression that the voters get here and I think in the
other states, that they`re all here all the time. They`re not. But
they`re still here quite a bit. It is interesting what you say that a pack
is now turning its focus to the national polls.

But I guess when you think about it, not only are we in advance of
FOX, but I would think that it would promote FOX`s event. And might also
bump up some of these lower polling people into the top poll and really
screw things up.

MADDOW: Well, right now, it is less like wrench in the works than a
firecracker in the works. But you in New Hampshire, and other folks in
South Carolina and Iowa who are pushing relentlessly on this stuff, I still
think you`re going to get your way and I think that proposal for two
debates instead of one held with everybody together, I still think it makes
so much sense that you will win because I believe in reason.

Joe McQuaid, publisher of "The New Hampshire Union Leader" --

MCQUAID: Well, good luck.

MADDOW: Thank you. I appreciate you being here, sir.

That voter`s first forum will be held in New Hampshire on August 3rd,
three days ahead of the FOX debate.

All right. We got lots more ahead including a member of the
president`s cabinet who is here live for the interview. Please stay with


MADDOW: So, tonight at the end of the show, we`ve got one of the
greatest public corruption stories of all time coming up. It involves
taxidermy, Wyatt Earp, fossilized pine trees. It`s like nothing I`ve ever
seen before.

We`ve still got the interview ahead. We have a report on President
Obama`s big testy press conference today. But the fossilized pine tree,
Wyatt Earp stuff, wildlife corruption story is truly, honestly nuts. It
has received no national attention and we`ve got that on deck, too.

Please stay with us.


MADDOW: July 15th, 1971, 44 years ago today, President Richard Nixon
went on TV to make a genuinely startling, totally unexpected address to the
American people. And for all the other stunning historical importance of
what he announced that night, 44 years ago right now, it was probably also
the last most consequential announcement in American history in which the
American president referred to himself by name. Sort of by necessity, he
had to talk about himself in third person as he made the announcement.



RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT: Good evening. I have requested this
television time tonight to announce a major development in our efforts to
build a lasting peace in the world. There can be no stable and enduring
peace without the participation of the People`s Republic of China and its
750 million people.

The announcement I shall now read is being issued simultaneously in
Peking and in the United States.

Chou En-Lai, on behalf of the government of the People`s Republic of
China, has extended an invitation to President Nixon to visit China as an
appropriate date before May 1972. President Nixon has accepted the
invitation with pleasure.


MADDOW: President Nixon saying that he, President Nixon, personally
would travel to China for direct talks with the Chinese government. And
that was not just a surprise because no American president had ever been to
China. It was a surprise because nobody thought that that particular
American president would ever go to China.

This was the middle of the Cold War. Richard Nixon was the coldest of
Cold Warriors in terms of his anti-communist rhetoric and all the rest of
it. Nobody thought Nixon of all people would extend a hand to China.

His own party was absolutely furious with him about it. Conservatives
called at this time liquidation of the anti-communist stance of the
American government. They said this was the same thing as appeasing Adolf

And yes, of course, China is not Iran, right? China then is not Iran
now. But if you hum a few bars, the way this diplomatic victory with Iran
right now is being greeted here in the United States sounds a little bit
like the way President Nixon`s own party greeted his overtures to China
more than 40 years ago.

Republicans in Congress now, Republicans running for president in
particular, they immediately came out yesterday, calling the Iran deal,
wait for it, appeasement. Just like Nixon, right. A disaster, delusional,
dangerous, before it was humanly possible for anyone who have actually read
the deal, Republicans were all over uniformly talking about how they knew
they hated it and they didn`t to have read it to know.

President Obama today gave a long press conference where he took
questions on the deal, reporters asking him about criticism of the deal,
about concerns about the deal. The president addressing those concerns as
put forth by reporters, one after the other.

Then at one point, I guess the president didn`t feel like the
reporters` questions were hard enough or that they had lobbed enough of the
range of possible critiques of the Iran deal at him. And I`ve never seen a
president do this before in a press conference, but he actually took out a
piece of paper from his pocket on which he had jotted down even more
possible critiques of the Iran deal and then even though he hadn`t been
asked about those critiques, he went to address the ones he got out of his


questions here? I think there`s a helicopter that`s coming, but I`m really
enjoying this Iran debate. The -- well, topics that may not have been
touched upon, criticism that`s you`ve heard that I did not answer. OK.
I`m just going to look -- I made some notes about the argument that I`ve
heard here.


MADDOW: Give me your talking points. I will knock down your talking
points as you give them to me. If you don`t remember your talking points,
I brought more. I brought more things that you might object to me about
that I can knock down right there. I`ve got them in my pocket.

I have never seen a president do that before.


OBAMA: There are only two alternatives here. Either the issue of
Iran obtaining a nuclear weapon is resolved diplomatically through a
negotiation or it is resolved through force, through war. Those are the


MADDOW: When pollsters asked the American people if we as Americans
support our government trying negotiate a diplomatic solution to the
Iranian nuclear issue, Americans say yes by very large margins.

But the political response, especially from Republicans, has been this
is terrible, the end of the world.

Today, President Obama challenged critics of diplomacy. He challenged
them to speak up, to explain their side. He basically said, if you`d
rather resolve the issue of Iran through a war, rather than talking, then
make your case that that`s what you want.


OBAMA: I challenge those who are objecting to this agreement to
explain specifically where it is that they think this agreement does not
prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. And why they`re right and
people like Ernie Moniz, who`s an MIT nuclear physicist and an expert in
these issues, is wrong.

And if the alternative is that we should bring Iran to heel through
military force, then those critics should say so. And that will be an
honest debate.


MADDOW: President Obama there giving a shout out to our nation`s
energy secretary, Ernest Moniz, if you`re the president, you can call him

Secretary Moniz had the difficult job of nailing down the technical
difficulties of this incredibly technical deal during these long and
exhausting talks. He has spent many months, and just recently, the past 18
days working on this. And he`s our guest for the interview here next.



OBAMA: I challenge those who are objecting to this agreement, number
one, to read the agreement before they comment on it. Number two, to
explain specifically where it is that they think this agreement does not
prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon. And why they`re right and
people like Ernie Moniz, who`s an MIT nuclear physicist and an expert in
these issues, is wrong.


MADDOW: Yes. Explain how MIT-trained nuclear physicist and U.S.
Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz is wrong. Go ahead.

That`s high praise from the president, also probably a lot of pressure
if you are U.S. Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz.

Let`s find out. He joins us now for the interview.

Mr. Secretary, sir, thank you so much for your time tonight. I have a
feeling you got to be pretty exhausted after what you`ve been through over
the last past few weeks.

ERNEST MONIZ, U.S. SECRETARY OF ENERGY: It`s been a grind but it`s a
pleasure to be here, Rachel.

MADDOW: How long was it before the deal was done that you actually
had confidence that it would be? Were you an optimist? Did you believe
that there always would be a final deal? Or did it seem shaky to you
toward the end?

MONIZ: Well, I think I thought we would get to a deal several days
after I felt we would not get to a deal, and that was just a couple days
before we finished. I did feel that come Sunday, we had a few issues to
resolve. But I thought we would come out with a very good deal and I
believe we have.

MADDOW: Let me ask you about criticism that`s resonates with me. A
lot of the criticisms of this deal seem to me to be things that people
wrote and prepared and put in bumper sticker form before the deal came out.
They were the kind of objections that were going to be raise no matter what
was in the deal.

But now that we`ve seen the deal, one of the ones that resonates with
me is this 24-day window. If the West suspects that Iran is cheating, Iran
has as far as I understand it, a 24-day window, a three and a half week
window before international inspectors will be able to get access to a
potential nuclear site to go check and see if cheating is happening.

How -- where did that 24-day window come from? Is that a potential
way that they could hide cheating from international detection?

MONIZ: Well, first of all, let me emphasize that I have always said
that it is anytime, anywhere in the sense of having a well-defined process
and a well-defined time to go in and inspect anywhere that we have a
suspicion of nuclear activity.

So, that`s not new that we have a time window. It is new to have such
a time because up until now, when the IAEA does these requests for
inspections, frankly, it`s quite often dragged on and on and on.

So, 24 days is the time that we have for the process to work out. Let
me assure you that when it comes to nuclear materials activity, I am not
concerned about the 24 days in terms of our ability or I should say,
really, the IAEA`s ability to detect that material.

MADDOW: You think that is not a long enough time that something could
essentially both hidden and cleaned up in time for to it look innocent by
the time the inspectors got there. It just seems like a long period.
Obviously, I`m not a nuclear physicist and you are. It seem like that`s a
long time to cover up the crime.

MONIZ: Trying to -- trying to disguise the fact that you have dealt
with nuclear materials is not simple. It is not exactly washing your
dishes at home. And again, there are very, very sensitive techniques for
detecting the use of such nuclear materials.

MADDOW: Let me ask but a contentious exchange that the president had
today during press conference with a reporter who questioned in provocative
terms why American citizens who are being held in Iran were not exchanged
as part of this deal. Major Garrett raised that with this issue of
Americans being held there. Other people have raised other issues about
Iran`s support for terrorism around the world and Iran`s treatment of its
own people, other Iranian civil rights and national security issues. There
are lots of things we still don`t like about Iran as a country.

How do you explain to people? How do you square the sort of morality
of this deal with its narrowness? With the fact that it is just about the
nuclear program and it leaves all the other elements of our relationship
with Iran still out there, even though we`re talking to them about this one

MONIZ: Well, I think it all starts with the fact that the president
and I as well feel that if we can take nuclear weapon issue off the table,
it makes it easier for us to deal with all the other issues. And there are
many that we have at issue with Iran, specifically, with regard to the
Americans unjustly held or in fact missing in Iran.

The feeling was that making that a quid pro quo in this discussion
would only put us at a disadvantage. But at every opportunity -- and I can
assure you that Secretary Kerry right at the moment of the deal raised once
again the issue of our resolving these issues about Americans that are held
or missing in Iran.

MADDOW: U.S. Energy Secretary Ernest Moniz, thank you for explaining
it to us. And you have earned your jet lag in an honest way, sir.

MONIZ: Thank you.

MADDOW: And I hope you get some rest now that you`re back. Thank
you, sir. I appreciate it.

MONIZ: Thank you.

MADDOW: All right. I don`t really how to say it, this coming out of
an interview with the United States secretary of energy. So, I`m just
going to say it -- up next, we`ve got a stuffed coyote wrapped in plastic
being held by a cop.

Stay with us.


MADDOW: OK. Visual cue. Ready?

When you see this mesmerizing picture, see this picture, tell me you
do not feel a burning desire to know more. To understand what`s going on
in this picture, to -- what does this mean? Who is this man? How is --
what is going -- if you stick around for one of the most astonishing
politician corruption stories I`ve ever seen in my life, all will be
revealed including the mystery of that thing.

Please stay with us.


MADDOW: You have waited for it and you deserve it. This is one of
the greatest public corruption stories I have heard. It is certainly the
only public corruption story that ever made me have to learn that this is
the state fossil of the state of Arizona. It is the petrified version of
like a big pine tree or something.

I know. It`s probably not actually a petrified pine tree. I`m sure
it is much more nuanced and important than that. But honestly, I spent
half of the day trying to figure out how to pronounce the thing. I will
not even try. I spent a long time. I can`t do it.

But, apparently this fossil, this petrified thing, while it is the
state fossil of Arizona, you can buy one, it is not a protected thing. You
can purchase one. The reason I know this is because the taxpayer dollars
of the people of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania were used to buy one in 2001.

In the year 2001, $277 were spent on a petrified pine tree. It was
then dumped in a storage space in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, along with a
chuck wagon dinner bell $75, and a 36-inch wide child`s bathtub from the
West Cliff Ranch, that was $300. Also, rolled of old barbed wire from the
Eastern Plains Company purchased with $56 in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania,
taxpayer dineros.

Not everything was so cheap, though. There was $19,000 bronze cowboy
on a bucking bronco. Also, a $14,000 suit of Spanish armor. Almost
$15,000 spent on what purported to be a Ford`s theater billed from the
night of the Lincoln assassination. Wow. Really? Who knows but that`s
what the people of Harrisonburg paid for it whether it`s fake or not.

They also paid $6,500 for a vampire hunting kit, which was definitely
fake, because there is no such thing as a real vampire hunting kit. But
there is a robust trade in fake ones that are gullible.

All of these things, and thousands of other things, pistols, saddles,
anchors, anvils, stage coach harnesses, cross bows, bowie knives, strong
boxes from stagecoaches, sheriff`s badges. All of this stuff, apparently
millions of dollars for this stuff was bought by the former mayor of
Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, with taxpayer money.

The attorney general of Pennsylvania just unveiled a 499-count
criminal indictment against Harrisburg`s former mayor, alleging that over
20 years, as the city of Harrisburg was brought to its financial knees as
it became the first city in Pennsylvania history to be taken over by the
state because it basically went bankrupt, as that was happening, perhaps
not coincidentally, the city`s long-time mayor, Steve Reid, ran a scheme in
which he would have the city take on huge loans for one civic purpose or
another and then take some of the money involved for himself and he would
use that money to do on Wild West memorabilia buying sprees.

So, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, is now treated to this astonishing
visual spectacle, can we drop the bug there? This astonishing visual
spectacle of the search warrants executed on the places where their mayor
stashed his stuff, where the mayor stashed their stuff actually since he --
look, since he bought it with public money.

This thing, I think, is a taxidermied coyote. But I might be wrong.
There`s a saddle. This is -- I don`t know what this is. I don`t know.

So, the mayor has been arrested now. He says he`s done nothing wrong.
He is vowing to fight the charges. But he has just been hit with a 499-
count criminal indictment. If he is convicted of the 499 charges, he is
looking at a maximum prison term of 2,439 years in prison.

But, hey, whatever happens to him, at least the good people of
Harrisburg get to decide what to do with their full suit of armor, their
three butter churns, their ram school, their full body buffalo, also
stuffed presumably, of course, their petrified pine tree.

I mean, there`s public corruption trials and then there are public
corruption trials. Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, just graduated to the big
leagues with this one. Very impressive.

That does it for us tonight. We will see you again tomorrow.


Good evening, Lawrence.


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