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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Thursday, July 16th, 2015

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Date: July 16, 2015
Guest: Robert Freeman, Jim Cavanaugh, Eugene O`Donnell, David Sterman,
Anthony Lemieux, Ladoris Cordell, Jonathan Capehart, David Corn

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: As we continue to learn more -- that it will
turn out that it was not that kind of weapon.

We`ll see, a very tight lip so far, stick a pin and not specific point
though, this is one of the important pieces of information that will
presumably come out of this investigation soon as we continue to learn

That does it for us tonight, we`ll see you again tomorrow, now it`s time
for THE LAST WORD with Lawrence O`Donnell, good evening Lawrence.

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening Rachel, thank you very much.

MADDOW: Thanks.

O`DONNELL: Today, tragedy struck in Chattanooga, Tennessee, as Rachel was
telling us, four Marines murdered before the gunman was killed.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Today is a nightmare for the city of Chattanooga.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four U.S. Marines are dead, gunned down by a lone

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a hail of bullets tore through two military centers.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All of a sudden I heard about 10 or 15 pops, you
know, just really fast pop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What we do know is that somebody brutally and brazenly
attacked members of our armed services.

circumstance for these individuals who had served our country with great
valor to be killed in this fashion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: According to the police, this gunman acted alone.

ALEX WAGNER, MSNBC: A naturalized American citizen identified as Mohammad
Youssuf Abdulazeez.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are conducting this as an act of domestic terrorism.


O`DONNELL: The FBI and joint terrorism task force are now investigating
the shooting death of four Marines today after a gunman opened fire at two
military facilities located seven miles apart in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

The suspected shooter is also dead and has been identified as 24-year-old
Mohammad Youssuf Abdulazeez; he is a naturalized citizen of the United
States, born in Kuwait and lives in -- had lived in the Chattanooga area.

At least three other people were injured, including a police officer and
another military service member.

U.S. Attorney General -- United States Attorney General Loretta Lynch said
the FBI will lead the investigation and that today`s shooting is being
investigated as a potential act of domestic terrorism.

"Nbc`s" Pete Williams is reporting that law enforcement officials are
investigating if this is a case of foreign inspired terrorism.

Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson said in a statement that officials
are enhancing the security posture at certain federal facilities out of an
abundance of caution.

In New York, law enforcement officials have stepped up security at local
recruitment centers and President Obama said this earlier today.


OBAMA: When you have an attack on a U.S. military facility, then we have
to make sure that we have all the information necessary to make an
assessment in terms of how this attack took place and what further
precautions we can take in the future.


O`DONNELL: According to the "New York Times", the FBI had not been
investigating the alleged gunman before today`s shooting and officials were
not aware of any plans for attacks in Chattanooga.

Joining us now is "Nbc News" correspondent Gabe Gutierrez who is live for
us in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Gabe, what do we know at this hour?

GABE GUTIERREZ, NBC NEWS: Hey there, Lawrence, well, as you can see behind
me, the FBI is still on the scene there, taking a lead in this

There are also investigators here from different agencies including ATF and
other local agencies. Now, this is what happened this morning.

It was around 10:35, sometime between 10:30 and 10:45, different witnesses
give a different timetable exactly, but around that time, they heard a
volley of gun fire.

At first, some of them thought it may have been some sort of construction
project, they didn`t immediately realize what it was. And they say that it
happened in rapid succession.

We know that the suspect fired more than 25 rounds here at this location.
Now, this was the first of two locations that -- where the shootings took

This one first, then the gunman took off and drove about seven miles, then
to a naval reserve center, and that is where four Marines lost their lives
and the gunman was killed.

Now, at this point, it is unclear whether the gunman took his own life or
whether he was shot and killed by police. That`s one of the details that
we`re still awaiting confirmation on.

And authorities really aren`t giving a whole lot of confirmation on exactly
what happened. We spoke with one of the sergeants who was in this military
recruiting center, just a short time ago.

And he says that there was one gunshot and then there was a pause and then
more gunshots continued.

Now, he says there were a total of five people in this military recruiting
center, himself and four people who were under him.

He was leading this military recruiting center, and then they went into an
active shooter position, their active shooter drills and stayed in there
until they got the all clear.

So, a lot of unanswered questions at this point about exactly what
happened, what the exact motive was.

And Lawrence, as you mentioned, federal officials are looking at this to
see if it may have been -- now it`s a big "may", may have been inspired by
ISIS perhaps.

Only because of the nature of the targets, military centers, and also the
timing of all this, which is as Ramadan was wrapping up.

Now, that is what investigators are looking at throughout the evening, they
have gone to the home of the suspected gunman, which is near Chattanooga.

And they`ve also been looking at perhaps who he may have had contact with
in the last few weeks, perhaps e-mail communication, phone calls, trying to
get any idea as to what may have led to all this, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Gabe, were the Chattanooga police able to engage in any kind of
chase of the shooter`s vehicle when he was going from one location to the

GUTIEREZ: Well, earlier today, they did say they were able to engage the
shooter as he made his way to the second location. The exact details of
that is -- are unclear.

There were 911 calls that suggested after he left this location or right
after the shots were fired here and he drove the seven miles to the other
location that they were in pursuit.

And then they said they engaged the suspect, but question is, what exactly
does that mean? Engaging the suspect could mean a variety of things.

That they in given that they knew that he had fired already and he was
presumed armed and dangerous, they may have gone up to him and you know
with guns drawn and may have fired the first shots.

Or it could be that they yelled out freeze or something to that effect and
he fired and they returned fire and struck him.

But we don`t know that. Again, we don`t know if the police officers were -
- fired the fatal shot or if the gunman may have taken his own life.

So, those details are something that will, I`m trickle out over the next
day or so, in the coming days as this investigation continues. We do not
know how he obtained the weapons that were used in the shooting.

And again, that`s something that authorities are looking into at this
point, Lawrence?

O`DONNELL: We now want to listen to a video of one of the witnesses,
Robert Dodge who will describe what he heard when that shot went off.


ROBERT DODGE, MARINE: We heard one shot go off, which kind of alerted us
at that time, about a second or two went by and then we heard the first
volley of fire.

At that time, we knew it was, you know, gun fire at our location. And then
we went into what we call an active shooter drill and we moved to the rear
of our building and barricaded ourselves in and got down on the ground and
waited for it to be all clear.


O`DONNELL: We are joined now by phone by Robert Freeman, he is a retired
Marine and a former recruiter at the Lee Highway Recruiting Center where
the first shooting occurred today.

Robert, what can you tell us about that location and what it must have been
like there today?

CENTER: All I can really say is that, it`s pretty open.

I mean there is -- the doors ain`t locked, they can walk in at anytime.
It`s not -- it`s not like it`s, you know, anybody`s making sure that people
don`t have weapons or anything.

And when you walk into the door, the recruiting office is wide open.

O`DONNELL: I want to listen to something else Robert Dodge said about how
the posture that they`re in, in a situation like this and how it`s
different for them as trained soldiers in combat. Let`s listen to this.


DODGE: When you`re in combat, you`re in full gear and you have a weapon in
your hands, and you`re more ready for it. When you`re out in a civilian
community, it`s not something that you`re ready for on a regular basis.

But the additional training and experiences has definitely helped us and my
team react the way we were supposed to react today.


O`DONNELL: Robert Freeman, Robert Dodge talked about going into active
shooter training that they`ve done. Could you describe what that involves?

FREEMAN: It`s just basically a way to barricade yourself. I mean, with
the active shooter drills and the stuff that they do, it`s more so that --
like for him in the instance that he was in a different office.

So, they barricade themselves to keep the shooter from coming into their
office. As far as the Marines that were in the Chattanooga office at the
time, they didn`t really have time to get in that posture.

The guy walked up and started shooting. So, there was no active shooter,
you know, drill for someone who is actually shooting into the office. They
-- they just had to run for their lives basically.

O`DONNELL: Is this something that any of you working there had ever
discussed, especially say after the shooting at Fort Hood?

FREEMAN: It`s something that -- we do what`s called annual training every
year as recruiters, and it`s something that we do go through and that we do
talk about.

But again, it`s -- there is no real drill for someone who is -- who is
putting rounds into the -- into the room you`re in.

It`s more so to make sure that you don`t go through and take more, you
know, more lives than he could before.

O`DONNELL: Robert Freeman, thank you very much for joining us tonight, and
I`m very sorry for what`s happened to your former teammates down there
today and I really appreciate you joining us, thank you.

FREEMAN: All right, thank you.

O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Eugene O`Donnell, a professor of law in police
studies at John Jay College and a former police officer with the NYPD.

Also joining us, Jim Cavanaugh, an "Nbc" law enforcement analyst and
retired ATF special agent in charge.

Jim was also the head of the ATF`s Nashville office where Jim and federal
authorities are investigating there tonight. So Jim, you know that area,
tell us what`s going on in that investigation now?

TOBACCO, FIREARMS & EXPLOSIVES: Well, we`ve got a big command post set up,
they`ve got scores of agents down there from all the surrounding offices.

And they`ve got agencies in there that are key to this; Chattanooga PD,
their homicide bureau, Hamilton County Sheriff`s Department.

The TBI, that`s the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation, the Tennessee
Department of Homeland Security, the FBI, the ATF, you know, the Tennessee
Highway Patrol, and you know surrounding communities.

So, they`ve got lots of people, Lawrence, to be able to do the
investigation that they need to do. And the scene is stopped and static
and the shooter is deceased.

So, you know, they`re at the other house, they`re doing their searches,
they`re starting to know more and more about this guy by the hour, and you
know, they`re going to have it all wrapped up, but there is going to be no

O`DONNELL: Eugene O`Donnell, you know, you hear these stories sometimes
and you listen and you think, well, maybe if they had done this instead of

I mean, this is one of those things where it`s just pure vulnerability.
They`re just in a store front and there`s -- I don`t see what they could
possibly have done about this.

OFFICER, NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT: It`s a business office and you
know, downtown, you know, on a main street.

I think the two things that are at play here is learning about him, whether
he has a network or whether it`s just simply about him acting alone.

And then I think lessons learned as to whether this guy should have been on
somebody`s radar screen.

How people like this are being grown in the country and what kind of
interventions we need to do to see if there`s anything that could be done
where people are being radicalized.

And it -- you know, this -- whether this turns out to be -- how far along
on the continuum of terrorism this is.

The fact is that we do have a very dangerous environment, now people are
trying to go overseas and have been apprehended doing that en route to the
battlefield essentially.

And so it`s no longer, you know, a question of whether we have this issue
as a serious issue, it is absolutely profoundly a serious issue at this

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what Chattanooga Police Chief Fred Fletcher
said about the investigation earlier.


FRED FLETCHER, POLICE CHIEF, CHATTANOOGA: We`re identifying spots, we`re
meeting on an hourly basis to make sure that any identified areas that
might feel vulnerable are addressed in the appropriate manner.

I can assure you that, all agencies, federal, state and local, are working
together with the common goal of keeping everybody in this community,
across this city, across this state and across this country safe.


O`DONNELL: Jim Cavanaugh, talk about the emotions in an investigation like
this. These are all people who never expected to be investigating the
murder of four Marines.

CAVANAUGH: Yes, this is heartbreaking. A law enforcement always has a
close relationship with the military, you know, because a lot of law
enforcement people come from the military.

We work with them, you know, we go to their bases, you know, ATF, we worked
closely with the CID of the army, the Naval Criminal Investigation Service,
the Air Force OSI.

So, there`s a big law enforcement military interaction. So, we certainly
feel that for the Marine Corps. And then of course, there`s a wounded
Chattanooga officer.

And you know, these foreign terrorists groups have been encouraging their
followers to kill police and military in the U.S., so that`s an ongoing
thing like Eugene mentioned.

So, that`s a real live threat to people who are in uniform. But Lawrence,
just to comment about what transpired today when you talked about what
happened, this guy might not have even got out of his vehicle.

This could have been almost a drive-by shooting at the recruit center. The
911 calls come in, a great Mustang convertible and officers are converging,
and what happens -- and I`ve done this in a patrol car and in shooting

Where there`s a shooting location, you`re responding and you encounter the
vehicle. And you know, I had a partner with me and then the guy started
shooting at us.

So, this is likely what happened. The Chattanooga PD then engages when
they see the vehicle that they try to pursue or apprehend.

And then he speeds to the naval recruit center or you know, the reserve
center and what happens is, you know, he kills four Marines somehow.

We don`t even know those four Marines were in the car. Well, they could
have been in the car and he drove right up next to them and shot them all
with his -- with his rifle.

So, we don`t quite know exactly how that transpired. Were they walking?
But you know, the officers might have been behind him just a few seconds
which would give him the ability to kill our heroes like he did.

O`DONNELL: Gabe Gutierrez, what kind of headway are they making at this
stage on the kind of details Jim Cavanaugh was just talking about?

GUTIERREZ: Well, as you can see behind me, I mean, this is a very active
scene right now with the FBI on scene. You know, forensically, trying to
figure out what happened here.

Twenty five, at least 25 rounds fired at this location. And then the other
location is actually even more blocked off.

So, the media hasn`t really been able to get a great -- you know, been able
to see exactly what transpired there.

But what Jim was saying was -- it was exactly right. We don`t know a lot
of things. We don`t know if these, you know, the four Marines who were
shot, what their proximity was to this convertible.

If he somehow managed to, you know, get out of his convertible and approach
the facility or if they were in the parking lot of the facility.

And I go back to -- we don`t know if it was the officers that fatally shot
him or if he decided to take his own life. Authorities have not revealed
that as well.

Now, this investigation is not just looking at the logistics of what went
on here. There is also -- you know, they`re trying to piece together his

He was arrested for driving under the influence earlier this year, that was
really his only reason he was known to law enforcement. He was not in any
federal watchlist of any sort.

The FBI did not consider him a terrorism suspect, they had briefly,
according to federal officials looked at his father years ago for perhaps
having some type of connection to a terrorism organization.

He is from the Palestinian territories, but that investigation was closed
and he was not put on any sort of terror watchlist. So, now they`re
looking to -- how perhaps this gunman acquired the weapons.

We don`t know exactly how he acquired them. We`ve heard witnesses say that
automatic weapons were used, but were they semi-automatic? Was it -- you
know, what type of gun was used? We don`t know the answer to that.

So, there`s still a lot of unanswered questions at this point, as to not
just how this transpired, but why this transpired, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Gabe Gutierrez, Jim Cavanaugh and Eugene O`Donnell, thank you
all for joining us tonight.

CAVANAUGH: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, President Obama makes a historic trip to a federal
prison, and we will have more on the investigation in Chattanooga.


O`DONNELL: An affiliate of the Islamic State has now taken credit for that
group`s -- what they`re calling their first naval attack.

The Islamic State says it attacked an Egyptian naval vessel with a rocket
in the Mediterranean Sea near the coast of Israel.

The Egyptian military says its coast guard did exchange shots with
terrorists and the boat was set on fire, but no one was killed.

Up next, more on the threat of terrorist violence in America.



OBAMA: We know that -- what appears to be a lone gunman carried out these
attacks. We have identified the name, and at this point, a full
investigation is taking place.

The FBI will be in the lead working closely with local law enforcement.
We`ve also been in contact with the Department of Defense to make sure that
all our defense facilities are properly attentive and vigilant as we sort
through exactly what happened.


O`DONNELL: According to the "New York Times", the gunman was not on the
government`s radar, but law enforcement officials say that his father had
been under investigation several years ago for possible ties with foreign
terrorist organization.

At one point, a law enforcement official said that the father was on a
terrorist watchlist and was questioned while on a trip abroad, but that he
was eventually removed from the list.

The official cautioned that the investigation of the father was old and did
not generate any information on the son.

Joining us now is David Sterman, a Program Associate at the New America
Foundation and an expert in American terrorism, and Anthony Lemue, the
Associate Director of the Global Studies Institute and lead researcher of
the Trans-Cultural Conflict and Violence Program at Georgia State

David Sterman, your reaction to what we`ve seen today?

having me. I think that what we have seen today is a horrible tragedy.

And the FBI is doing exactly what it should be doing, opening a terrorism
investigation while cautioning people that there`s no evidence so far, at
least publicly that this is actually an act of terrorism.

O`DONNELL: And Anthony Lemieux, what is your -- what is your reaction
about what you`ve seen as this story has developed today?

first thing is, you know, certainly, in my kind of sense of, you know, just
being really upset for the victims and their immediate families.

And, you know, thinking about it, as David points out, really kind of
understanding, you know, getting at some of those underlying motivations.

So, I`ve been very curious about trying to see what becomes available about
the perpetrators background.

And so far, we don`t know a lot, but we have seen certain things that have
come out, some statements that he`s posted only very recently on social
media which have been of interest.

O`DONNELL: Let`s listen to what James Comey said last week about how the
Islamic State is trying to target young people through social media.


message which is two-pronged.

Come to the Islamic State and join us here in this -- you know, our version
of paradise -- which is a nightmare, but their version of paradise.

And second, if you can`t come, kill somebody where you are, videotape it,
you can cut their head off and videotape it, great. Please try to kill law
enforcement or military.


O`DONNELL: David Sterman, do we see any pattern in the young people who
are susceptible to that kind of material?

STERMAN: It`s very difficult to determine pattern within people charged
with Jihadist terrorism crimes. They tend to be middle class, but you see
other classes, both men and women, although they tend to be overall men.

They have a wide variety of ages, although they tend to be younger at the
moment in this particular cohort. And they have a wide variety of
educational levels.

So, it`s very hard to generate any kind of profile. And again, we have no
information on this particular individual and whether he was connected to
Jihadist terrorists at all, let alone ISIS.

O`DONNELL: We`re going to now hear a very short forum from a young person
who has been susceptible to this.

This is the son of a Boston police captain who was arrested for illegally
buying four firearms from an undercover FBI informant.

This is video of him being questioned by the FBI after he was arrested on
July 4th. And here he is talking about the people who we have seen
beheaded by the Islamic State.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The people that you -- people that you see being
executed are criminals. They`re criminals.


O`DONNELL: Tony Lemieux, what does it take to take an American kid -- now,
that -- this kid`s had a lot of mental problems in his history that we know

So, that`s certainly a factor in this. But to hear a young American
talking the way about these people who were beheaded, what is that road
that gets them to that space?

LEMIEUX: Well, there is -- there is a lot of different pathways that get
you there. I think one of the key things is that, you know, he went on to
say they`re the lowest of the low.

And he really kind of has that sort of essentializing dehumanizing aspect
of it. So, they`re not even actually considered as people.

Now, to kind of bring that back even to the Chattanooga attacks, you have
here, you know, targeting of a military recruiting station.

So there is an extra layer of that kind of dehumanization and really kind
of labeling the out-group as an enemy that is, you know, that you need to
go out and kill.

And so, that I think is part of it. But it also has that sense of, you
know, here is someone who is trying to kind of fit in, and certainly in the
case of Boston.

You know, to try to kind of be part of something bigger and that is part of
the appeal certainly that ISIS is trying to do.

I would say, the only thing that would really kind of lead me to kind of
sway towards that, and as David points out, we don`t really know
definitively yet.

But there have been, you know, specific calls for attacks and especially
now. I mean, especially because we`re about to, you know, end Ramadan.

So, we`re kind of in that period where ISIS had been calling for those
particular sorts of attacks and military recruiting stations have been
targeted in the past, even 2009 in Little Rock.

I mean, so, this is not unprecedented. It just happens to tragically be
the worst we`ve experienced thus far.

O`DONNELL: Tony Lemieux and David Sterman, thank you for joining us on
this sad night. Thank you.

STERMAN: Thank you.

LEMIEUX: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, President Obama makes history. The first sitting
president to visit a federal prison.


O`DONNELL: Today President Obama made history by being the first president
to visit a federal prisoner.


OBAMA: The United States accounts for 5 percent of the world`s population.
We account for 25 percent of the world`s inmates. And, that represents a
huge surge since 1980. I just took a look at a cell where because of
overcrowding specifically, we might have three people housed in a cell that
looks to be, what, 15 by --




OBAMA: 9x10. Three full grown men in 9x10 cell.


O`DONNELL: Later President Obama started to walk away from reporters when
one shouted a question and the president`s answer got personal.


OBAMA: Visiting with these six individuals -- and I have said this before,
when they describe their youth and their childhood, these are -- these are
young people who made mistakes that are not that different than the
mistakes I made and the mistakes that a lot of you guys made.

I think we have is a tendency sometimes to almost take for granted, or
think it is normal that so many young people end up in our criminal justice
system. It is not normal. It is not what happens in other countries.
What is normal is teenagers doing stupid things.

What is normal is young people making mistakes. And, we got to be able to
distinguish between dangerous individuals who need to be incapacitated and
incarcerated versus young people who are in an environment in which they
are adapting.

But if given different opportunities, different vision of life could be
thriving the way we are. That is what strikes me. There, but for the
grace of god. And, that I think is something that we all have to think


O`DONNELL: More on President Obama`s historic visit next. And, later, a
few words about Donald Trump.


OBAMA: For non-violent drug crimes we need to lower long mandatory minimum
sentence or get rid of them entirely. We should pass a sentencing reform
bill through congress this year.


We need to ask prosecutors to use their discretion to seek the best
punishment, the one that is most effective instead of just the longest
punishment. We should invest in alternatives to prison, like drug courts
and treatment and probation programs.


O`DONNELL: Joining us now David Corn, the Washington Bureau Chief for
Mother Jones and an MSNBC Political Analyst. Also with us, Jonathan
Capehart, opinion writer for the "Washington Post" and an MSNBC
contributor. Also joining us, former Judge Cordell, who is now the
Independent Police Auditor for the City of San Jose. Judge Cordell, your
reaction to what you heard the President say today in that prison.

Lawrence, by the president going to a federal prison and then two days ago
delivering a speech the NAACP about criminal justice reform, this was a
game changer. This is a game changer for reform of the criminal justice

No president before him, who has -- and all of them have pushed for
criminal justice reform but in the opposite direction. They have all
pushed for more prisons, tougher sentencing laws. This president has done
a 180 and it is just remarkable. This is a huge deal.

O`DONNELL: Jonathon Capehart, that personal moment that came down for him
there but for the grace of God. How did you react to that?

JONATHAN CAPEHART, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I mean, it is something the
president has talked about before. I mean he mentioned it during my
brother`s keeper launch last year. He brings it up every time he talks to
young people, particularly young men of color.

Remember when after the acquittal of George Zimmerman, there in the White
House press briefing, where President Obama said that, you know, he -- 30-
something years ago, he could have been Trayvon Martin and that because he
grew up in an environment where second chances were allowed, where he was
allowed to make mistakes his path was different.

And, so he recognizes very strongly and very well that a lot of the young
people he has met during his presidency. A lot of the people who are in
that prison in Oklahoma that he visited today and who are caught up in the
criminal justice system, that he could have been them, and those are the
folks who are in prison for, you know, low-level drug offenses and who
could have been diverted to other programs.

That is what he is trying to -- that is what he is hoping to change. I
mean I hope he is right that he would like to get a criminal justice reform
package done this year. But as we know in this town, the president wants
it. It is hard to see how he is going to get it. Even with bipartisan
support that there is for criminal justice reform right now.

O`DONNELL: Yes. There is some surprising bipartisan support right now.
But, David Corn, before we get to that, I want to just linger for a moment
on the fact that he did not just say that it could have been him.
President Obama did not just say this kind of thing could have happened to

He pointed it to all of the press corps there and said, "You know, a lot of
these are the kinds of mistakes that we all made, that you all made. And,
that is, you know, certainly applies to me and everybody I grew up with at
some point did something trivial or not so trivial that I could have gotten
us arrested and most of the time did not."

DAVID CORN, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST: He was, basically, saying we live in
a rigged system, where some people get treated a different way than others
for doing essentially the same thing. You group in a middle class, upper
class, suburban area, and you get in trouble with the cops, the law. You
have an intact family. You have friends. You may be a lawyer. And you
can get off pretty easily.

You know, and it has been true for decades. It happens in an urban area.
You are poor. You do not have those resources, and you pay a heavy price.
And, politicians -- and this is I think the big break here. Politicians
for decades starting really with really, you know, in some ways with
Richard Nixon but even goes back before that have played politics with

They have used all of these poor kids as, basically, cajole and try to go
against the other side and say, "I am going to keep them longer. We are
going to throw away the idea of rehabilitation. It is all going to be

Even though Clinton did that with the crime bill in 1994 and Barack Obama
has finally come around. Thank God for second terms and saying we need to
rethink fundamentally how we deal with crime from a political and a policy

O`DONNELL: Let us listen to what Bill Clinton said today, not today but
this week about what he got wrong when he was president.


BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I signed a bill that made the
problem worse. I will not admit it but in that Bill, there were longer
sentences. And, most of these people were in prison under state law, but
the federal law set a trend and that was overdone. We were wrong about
that. The bad news is, we had a lot of people who were essentially locked
up who were minor actors for way too long.


O`DONNELL: Ladoris Cordell, talk about what that Clintoneer. I do not
mean to begot to him, because all of Washington was very excited every
chance they could get to introduce a new harsh, federal penalty.

I once heard a senator jokingly say about the Clinton Health Care Bill, "We
could get this passed, if we just put a death penalty in here somewhere."
And, that was the spirit of Washington at that time.

CORDELL: Sure. The political wins were such that Bill Clinton grabbed on
to them. And, I will tell you, you know, he should apologize, but that is
not enough. If he really wants to make amends for I think the great harm
that he caused in pushing forward the passage of that legislation. He
needs to be out front.

I think he should be out front on criminal justice reform. When President
Obama pushed for all this, this is for the federal system. This is not
about the states and the hope is that the states will follow on the
tailwinds of the federal system here as we reform it. And, I think that
Bill Clinton, if is truly apologetic, he should really take the lead in
seeing these reforms happen throughout the country.

O`DONNELL: Listen to what John Boehner said today about the possibilities


believed that there needed to be reform of our criminal justice system.
Chairman Goodlatte last year put together a working group that had

And, I supported his recommendations and they are by and large embraced in
the bill that Mr. Sensenbrenner has with Mr. Scott. We have a lot of
people in prison frankly, that really in my view, really do not need to be

It is expensive to house prisoners sometimes, frankly. So many of these
people are in there under what I will call flimsy reasons. And, so, I
think it is time that we review this process they have and I am looking
forward to putting those recommendations on the floor.


O`DONNELL: John Capehart, I do not know how to handicap that legislation
and where it that is going but to hear a Republican Speaker of the House
saying, that has to be encouraging.

CAPEHART: Yes. I, actually -- I am going to walk back what I said in my
original answer just a little bit. On the one hand, I noticed that he
talked about how much it costs to house these prisoners. And, that is
where you have some republicans on Capitol Hill who are latching on
criminal justice reform because they see it as a way of bringing down
government spending.

But Speaker Boehner went the extra step by talking about sort of the moral
part of this problem, and that is, as he said, people in prison for quote,
"Flimsy Reasons." And, so that actually did give me -- I am very,
actually, more hopeful than I was when this segment started.


O`DONNELL: All right. Well, that is the perfect note to end on. David
Corn, Jonathan Capehart and Ladoris Cordell, thank you all for joining me

CORN: Sure. Thanks, Lawrence.

CORDELL: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up next, a verdict in the Aurora, Colorado theater
shooting. And later, I will address Donald Trump`s big challenge to me



a weight lifted that I did not even know was there.


O`DONNELL: That is Jansen Young, a survivor of the Aurora Movie Theater
shooting after a Colorado jury announced a verdict today. James Holmes is
guilty on all counts. Jansen Young was able to witness the trial but her
boyfriend Jon Blunk was not.

Jon Blunk was one of the 12 people killed when Holmes opened fire within
that crowded movie theater in July of 2012. The jury spent 13 hours
deliberating before rejecting the defense`s claim that Holmes was legally

The case will now proceed to the penalty phase, where the same jury will
decide whether to send Holmes to life in prison or to death row.

Coming up, next, the republican presidential campaign has a new


O`DONNELL: A new Fox News Poll released tonight shows the Republican field
has an officially new frontrunner. Donald Trump is at 18 percent. Scott
Walker is at 15 percent. Jeb Bush is at 14 percent. Rand Paul is at 8.
Marco Rubio 7. Ben Carson is 6.

Fox News Poll last month shows Jeb Bush leading with 15 percent. Donald
Trump with then only 11 percent, then Carson with 10 percent. Scott Walker
and Rand Paul with 9 percent. Tonight`s poll has a 5 percent margin of
error. I have a few more words to say about Donald Trump next.


O`DONNELL: And, now for a few words about Donald Trump. I like him. I
know how shocking that sounds to faithful viewers of this program. So, let
me explain. When I was a kid, the first columnist I ever read was "The
Boston Globe`s" great George Frazier who once said he never wanted to meet
politicians because he was afraid he might like them, and then could not
write about them object ively.

I understand what the he meant. Here is the moment when I met Donald Trump
just three months ago. Donald was making his grand entrance in the
ballroom of the White House Correspondents` dinner, and I was sitting alone
at a table minding my own business.

He spotted me, called my name and watch what he did. He stretches out his
hand for a handshake. That, he does that to a guy, who savaged him four
years ago when he was talking about running for president. I bothered him
so much back then he threatened to sue me, but he did not care about any of
that when he saw me. He just wanted to shake my hand and wish me well.

Now, that moment was not going to happen if it was up to me. I was not
going to go out of my way to say something nice to Donald Trump and shake
his hand, because on that night, in that moment, Donald was a bigger man
than I was and I liked him for that.

It was not the first time Donald reached out to me. A year ago when I
returned to this show after a lengthy hospitalization recovery from a car
accident, Donald watched that first show when I came back. I really did
not know how to return to the show; meaning, I just did not know what to
say about what have happened to me or if I could actually talk about it at
all. I was very unsure of myself that night.

And, as it turned out, I spent the first 15 minutes of the show thanking
from the heart all of the people who put me back together and then I tried
to move the show closer to its regular jurisdiction. The first e-mail I
read, the next day was a message from Donald Trump to me.

It said, Donald Trump`s office called this morning. They wanted to express
Donald Trump`s sentiments. He said he watched the show last night and
thought Larry was great. And that touched me deeply. And, when Donald
Trump announced his candidacy, I welcomed it in the same spirit as Jon
Stewart. This is going to be fun to cover. That is what I set out to do.
That is the way I wanted to cover Donald this time.

But I got myself hung up on the least important thing about Donald Trump,
the future president, how much money he has earned in T.V. Donald is now
bothered by my disbelief that I have expressed about how much money NBC
paid him as the star of "The Apprentice" series. And, today, Donald came
up with a better idea than threatening to sue me.

This time, he challenged me to bet 100 percent of my salary that I am wrong
about his NBC income. Now, where I come from, no one settled disagreements
with bets because none of us had any money to bet. So, no, Donald there
will not be any bet because I would never bet about anything. I just do
not bet, period.

And, I do not want to be in a story about Donald Trump. I want to cover
this campaign, and I might be wrong. I have never said, I know exactly how
much Donald Trump made for the entire series. I do not know. I have made
semi-educated guesses about it and I do not really care very much about it.
I do not really care.

And, so, after I offered my guesses about it last night on this program and
tried to have some fun with it. James Fallows wisely tweeted that Donald`s
T.V income does not matter and I immediately agreed with him on Twitter.

Then I stupidly jumped in to talking about it again on "Morning Joe" today,
where I in fact hijacked a few minutes of the show to talk about this thing
that I know does not matter. That I have already said publicly does not

And, others have expressed doubts about Donald`s claims about money.
Timothy O`Brien, a "New York Times`" reporter wrote a book about such
doubts, but no one has expressed such doubts with harsher language than I
have. And, I am not proud of that. I do not want the prize for the guy,
who uses the meanest words in a debate.

I do not want to be the angry guy about Donald Trump because I am not.
And, so, as I said, I do not want to be in stories about Donald Trump. I
just want to sit here and cover the Donald Trump campaign. I was trying to
have fun, talking about Donald`s money this morning, but when I watched the
video of that thing this afternoon, it did not look like fun.

And, when I finally shut up about this stuff this morning on the show, only
then did I realize that I had been eating up time that should have been
devoted to Joe and Mika`s interview with April Ryan, who had just joined
the panel to discuss her very important question to President Obama
yesterday in the press conference about Bill Cosby.

Now, I am really sorry that I wasted the time that should have been focused
on what April Ryan had to say. And, I want to give April Ryan a chance to
be heard again on this, because once we all listened to April this morning,
she left us all speechless.


of the reporter role and tell me what you felt as a human being about that

APRIL RYAN, AMERICAN JOURNALIST: -- You know I am not supposed to be the
story, but as a woman, as a daughter of a woman, as a mother of two
daughters, I was floored. I was like, "Wow, it was strong. It was a
statement." You know, and hearing these allegations -- I mean it is -- it
is amazing.

And, then, you know, as someone -- you know, being a kid I grew up, you
know, on Cosby, "Fat Albert." I remember my parents gave me this little --
what is it? A 45. Remember those little 45 pistons called "water water
everywhere" by Bill Cosby.

And, you know, I watched "The Cosby Show." I watched "Different World."
You know, it was interesting. But my reporter`s hat was on the taking a
look back, you know. It is just a sad situation all the way around for
everyone. And, it was a presidential issue.

Anytime you have people asking that this president revoke a medal of
freedom given by another president it became presidential and I had to ask
that question. It is not about me personally. It is about the issue.
Anything presidential, anything, nothing is beyond bounds to ask the
president of the United States and that definitely was a presidential

BRZEZINSKI: April, thank you. Lawrence O`Donnell and Cordell Crystal
(ph), both as well.


O`DONNELL: April Ryan I guess tonight`s Last Word. Chris Hayes is up


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