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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Wednesday, July 22nd, 2015

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Date: July 22, 2015
Guest: Sharon Cooper, Cannon Lambert, Nicole DeBorde, Carmen Roe, April
Ryan, Jonathan Allen



O`DONNELL: As I always -- so I`m going to be taking style notes when I
watch Seth Meyers --


O`DONNELL: As I always do with you --

MADDOW: No, don`t, in this case, you are -- you are forbidden from taking
style notes, the pants and those high tops is terrible.

O`DONNELL: And you`re so right about Donald. He takes the word boring --

MADDOW: Yes --

O`DONNELL: Out of any --


Phrase involving political campaigning, it is -- it is no longer boring.

MADDOW: That`s exactly right, thanks for everything --

O`DONNELL: Thanks, Rachel.

MADDOW: Thanks.

O`DONNELL: Well, today, Rick Perry asked Donald Trump a question that
Donald has not yet answered -- have you no decency, sir?

But we will begin tonight with the arrest and death of Sandra Bland.
Sandra Bland`s sister is our first guest.


CANNON LAMBERT, LAWYER: Right out of the gate, you see from that dashcam
that this could have easily been avoided.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We start with big developments in the investigation
into Sandra Bland`s death.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: In the footage from July 10th, Bland is initially
pulled over by state trooper Brian Encinia --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see how this routine traffic stop turned so
wrong, so quickly.

SANDRA BLAND, DECEASED: Why am I being apprehended? --


BLAND: You then opened my car door --


ENCINIA: I`m going --

BLAND: Opened my car door --

ENCINIA: To drag you out of here.

BLAND: So, are you going to -- you (INAUDIBLE) drag me out of my own car?


ENCINIA: Get out of the car!


BLAND: And do you --


ENCINIA: I will light you up, get out!



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They walk around the car, out of the view of the
dashcam and according to his affidavit, she kicked him and elbowed him.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was placed in the Waller County jail where she
was found dead in her cells.

LESTER HOLT, JOURNALIST: Sandra Bland`s family and others have questioned
the official version of her death.

LAMBERT: What raises questions is why it is that age 28-year-old woman who
had received two job offers would take her own life?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, the family has returned to Chicago and she will be
buried on Saturday.


O`DONNELL: Tonight as three separate investigations unfold, the Waller
County Sheriff`s office released medical evaluation forms apparently filled
out by a deputy the day Sandra Bland was arrested.

The "yes" box is checked, next to the question, taking medication? But no
medications are listed. Next to the question, are you thinking of killing
yourself today?

The "no" box is checked. And to the question, have you ever attempted
suicide? The "yes" box is checked. To the question when? It says 2014,
why? Lost baby -- how? Pills.

A note on the form says inmate states she has epilepsy. A 52-minute video,
dashcam video showing the arrest of Sandra Bland includes her telling the
arresting officer that she has epilepsy.

The dashcam video shows Sandra Bland being pulled over simply for changing
lanes without signaling on a low-traffic road where clearly no signal seems

Especially since she knew the only car behind her was that police car. On
a -- on the dashcam video, she is heard explaining that she changed lanes
to get out of the way of that police car.


ENCINIA: Hello, ma`am, (INAUDIBLE) I pulled -- the reason for your stop is
you then failed -- you failed to signal a lane change -- that`s why I`m
going to return to the -- OK, ma`am, are you OK?

BLAND: I`m waiting on you, you -- this is your job, I`m waiting on you,
what do you want me --

ENCINIA: Oh, you --

BLAND: To do?

ENCINIA: Seem very irritated.

BLAND: I am, I really am, but that`s what I just said, what I`m getting a
ticket for, I was getting out of your way, you were speeding up suddenly,
so I moved over and you stopped me, so, yes, I am a little irritated, but -


BLAND: That doesn`t stop you from giving me a ticket.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, can sir --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, I should have a car --

ENCINIA: Are you done?

BLAND: You asked me what`s wrong and I told you.


BLAND: So now, I`m done, yes.

ENCINIA: OK, you mind putting out your cigarette, please, if you don`t

BLAND: I`m in my car, why do I have to put out my cigarette?

ENCINIA: So, you can step on out now.

BLAND: I don`t have to step out of my car.

ENCINIA: Step out of the car --

BLAND: So, am I --

ENCINIA: Step --

BLAND: No, you don`t have --

ENCINIA: Out of the car --

BLAND: No, you don`t have the right, you do not --

ENCINIA: Step out of the car --

BLAND: You do not have the right --


BLAND: To do that --

ENCINIA: I do have the right, now step out --

BLAND: I refuse to --

ENCINIA: Or I will remove you --

BLAND: I refuse to talk to you other than to identify myself and get --

ENCINIA: Step out or I will --


Remove you --

BLAND: I am getting removed for it, a failure --

ENCINIA: Step out or I will remove you, I`m giving you a lawful order, get
out of the car now or I`m going to --


Remove you --

BLAND: And I`m calling my lawyer --

ENCINIA: I`m going to yank you --


Out of here.

BLAND: OK, you`re going to yank me out of my car?

ENCINIA: Get out --

BLAND: OK, all right --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty five, seven --

BLAND: Let`s do this.

ENCINIA: Get out or you`re going to.

BLAND: Yes, don`t touch me.

ENCINIA: Get out --

BLAND: Don`t touch --

ENCINIA: Of the car!

BLAND: Don`t touch me, I`m not under arrest, you don`t have the right to
touch me --


ENCINIA: You are under arrest --

BLAND: I`m under arrest for what?

ENCINIA: Twenty five --

BLAND: For what?

ENCINIA: Four-seven --



BLAND: For what?

ENCINIA: Two-ninety, send me another unit -- get out of the car --


ENCINIA: Get out of the car, now!

BLAND: Why am I being apprehended? You`re trying to give me a ticket --


ENCINIA: I said get out of the car.

BLAND: Why am I being apprehended? You then open --

ENCINIA: I didn`t know --

BLAND: My car door --


You then open my car door --

ENCINIA: I`m going to drag you out of here --

BLAND: So, are you going to -- you -- drag me out of my own car --


ENCINIA: Get out of the car!


BLAND: And do you --


ENCINIA: I will light you up, get out!

BLAND: Wow --


BLAND: Wow --

ENCINIA: Get out of the car! --

BLAND: Arrested for failure to signal, you`re doing all of this for a
failure --

ENCINIA: Get over there. Come over here --


BLAND: About to break my wrist, can you stop?!


You are -- my wrist -- stop!

ENCINIA: Try and move them, stop now! Stop it!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop resisting, ma`am.

BLAND: Oh, no, it makes you feel real good, you`re a real man now, you
slammed me, knocked my head on the ground, I got epilepsy --

ENCINIA: Good --

BLAND: I`m helpless --

ENCINIA: Good --

BLAND: Good?!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You should have thought about --

BLAND: Is it good --


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That before you started --

BLAND: All right --



O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Sharon Cooper, Sandra Bland`s sister, also with
us, Cannon Lambert, the family`s attorney.

Sharon Cooper, first of all, I am very sorry for your loss, I understand
how difficult this has to be for you to watch a video like that and now
discuss this situation.

That video has been around, been available to us now for about 24 hours, a
little more than 24 hours. Could you give us your reaction to having seen
it and as you continue to see it, what your reaction is to it as you watch

SHARON COOPER, SISTER TO SANDRA BLAND: Overall, my reaction to the video -
- and thanks so much for your condolences.

I am just wild at this point based off of the video, also all of the new
updates that have seemingly come out in the next -- in the last couple of
hours here.

You know, quite frankly, the decision to pull her over for her failure to
signal, you know, to utilize her turn signal is a baseless reason, in my

And I think it`s -- I think the officer was picking on her. And in terms
of the type of rhetoric and discourse that the officials have engaged in
over the last couple of hours has pretty much just wowed me.

I am just baffled by the engagement in the derogatory comments to vilify
her character and really shift the focus from what the real issues are
here, which is the level of inconsistencies in the documents that we`ve

Yes, we`ve received the documents that you`re referring to and they simply
don`t add up.

O`DONNELL: All right, I want to work backwards toward the arrest because
it is an inexplicable arrest.

And I just want to say, in a lifetime of driving, I have changed lanes like
that every single day of my driving life somewhere without that signal.

And I have never been pulled over for that, I certainly use lane changing
signals on high-speed roads with a lot of traffic and whenever it`s
necessary, but I`ve never seen anyone pulled over for that.

But I want to work backwards from this latest document that came out from
the police department today with these check marks.

And there is no -- I just want to stipulate for the moment and attorney
Lambert, I want to hear you on this.

But there`s no actual proof on this document as I can tell, about when it
was actually written, when it was filled out, was it filled out after her

I don`t think we can proof that at this point in time, no matter what it
says in terms of the handwritten date.

But it does check off the box, where it says, have you ever attempted
suicide and it says, yes, in 2014, lost baby and the method was pills.

Sharon, what do you know about that? What can you tell us about that?

LAMBERT: Well, I just want to stop you, though --


LAMBERT: Before we go into that, because the reality of it is, is that
some of the things you talked about are very significant. We don`t know
that those documents frankly are -- when they were generated.

And so for them -- I have some real concerns. I mean, there is a lot of
unusual things that are taking place right now. We`ve got unusual
circumstances that surround the dashcam tape and the glitches in the
dashcam tape.

We`ve got unusual circumstances in the jailhouse tape, where there is
actual time missing from the tapes. We`ve got unusual circumstances where
all of a sudden we have booking records that pop up out of nowhere.

And now, not -- I just got a text from the Waller County ADA telling us --
and this is the day that we bring Sandy home to Chicago from Texas.

I just got a text telling us that they now are going to need to do a second
autopsy because their first autopsy was defective.

How is this family supposed to feel confident in the way that this is being
handled and in the suggestion as to how Sandy died?

O`DONNELL: And did the family conduct its own autopsy? Did you contract a
separate autopsy?

LAMBERT: We absolutely did, Lawrence, we did that. And what`s most
disturbing to me is, is that we couldn`t do so until after Sandy was
released to us.

And she was released to us from the Harris County Coroner. They did their
own -- they told us it was a full, fair and complete autopsy.

But now, today, just a few moments ago, we received a text, saying we are
going to need a second one because our first one wasn`t good enough.

O`DONNELL: So, this is a -- this is a breaking news situation right now
that this county, this district attorney is asking you to cooperate in
delivering Sandra`s body back for a second autopsy.

LAMBERT: Three days before she is to be put to rest. Her funeral is
scheduled on the 25th. This family has gone through the process of going
down and bringing her back and when they brought her back, started -- and
they had -- even before they did that, they started planning for her home

And now, today, a few moments ago, we get faced with a text saying, well,
our first autopsy was not sufficient. We are going to need another one.

It`s very unusual and it`s really challenging --

COOPER: That`s true --

LAMBERT: For me to be able to say and appeal to her better angels and
saying to her family`s better angels and say, let`s let this process take
its course because we have to have faith that they`re going to do what
they`re saying they`re going to do.

It`s -- you know, we`ve got requests out right now for records and so forth
that haven`t been met or addressed or responded to.

And instead, things are getting trickled out and I don`t know where they
came from or when they were generated.

I mean, the reality of it is that there are a whole host of things that are
very unusual as to how they are playing out.

O`DONNELL: What is the FBI`s involvement in this investigation at this

LAMBERT: As I understand it, they are observing the investigation, I don`t
quite -- I`m not quite clear as to whether or not --

O`DONNELL: Have --

LAMBERT: They forced --

O`DONNELL: Have you --

LAMBERT: Their own --

O`DONNELL: Have you considered -- I know you`ve only had minutes now to
consider this request for a second official autopsy.

But have you considered the possibility of asking basically for a third
party, a justice department, a federal version of that autopsy to be
supervised in Chicago so that you won`t have to move Sandy`s body again?

LAMBERT: Well, the practical reality of it is that, we have absolutely no
intention of moving her body. We are going to see her homecoming and her
home going go into effect.

The reality of it in -- again, we wouldn`t have even been able to perform
our autopsy, had it not been for the fact that they had done their full
autopsy and then released her to us.

It would have been unlawful for us to obtain Sandy and bring her home.
This family flew home with Sandy on the same plane.

And the solace that, that brought, as much as it was tearful, the solace
that, that brought to this family, I observed myself personally.

And I have to tell you to now be faced with a situation where we are being
told that we didn`t do a good enough autopsy. Is -- it just -- it really
is not something that you see.

You just don`t see this type of thing.

O`DONNELL: Sharon, tell us what it`s been like to have to go to Texas like
this to -- in a situation like this, and, you know, even if this was a
natural causes death, to go down there and to bring your sister`s body

And we know it was not a natural causes death and we know that the cause of
her incarceration is demonstrably unlawful.

There isn`t a single legal observer who has watched any of that videotape
that I`m aware of anywhere who has said that, that was a lawful arrest.

COOPER: It`s extremely challenging. It`s like ripping a band-aid off.
For two weeks, I have to be frank and honest with you, it is challenging,
it is long, it is painful and in light of the new information that we have
just received quite honestly, it`s making it extremely difficult for us.

For our concerns and our fears not to be heightened by the fact that
something unusual happened to her. Due to the amount of errors and
inconsistencies that we continue to see.

O`DONNELL: And can I go to that -- the questions that are raised by this
form that was released today on the question of -- did your sister lose a
baby in last year?

COOPER: Yes, she did, she did.

O`DONNELL: And what can you tell us about that? How old was the baby?

COOPER: It was a very early pregnancy, a painful experience and that`s as
much as I know.

O`DONNELL: So, it was a --

LAMBERT: It happened in 2014 --

O`DONNELL: And just --

LAMBERT: She was arrested on the 10th of July --


LAMBERT: Two-thousand-and-fifteen, the timeline doesn`t seem to quite add
up, that you would -- you`d be able to make it every day for a year.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and --

LAMBERT: And then --

O`DONNELL: And Sharon, was this a pregnancy that we`re talking about or --


O`DONNELL: So she hadn`t given birth and then lost a baby after giving


COOPER: No, just a miscarriage --


COOPER: Yes --

O`DONNELL: A miscarriage, OK, good, I just wanted to get that -- get that

COOPER: Sure --


COOPER: Absolutely --

O`DONNELL: Were you aware of any prescriptions she was taking that would
be in any way relevant to what we`re discussing tonight?

LAMBERT: There was no prescriptions that she was taking that we are aware

O`DONNELL: And what about phone calls from the jail cell, did you get a
chance to talk to her? Do you know anyone who got the chance to talk to

COOPER: Absolutely, my older sister had the opportunity to talk to Sandra
at 1:50 on Saturday, July 11th, Sandy basically informed her that, she`d
been in jail pretty much corroborating her traffic stop, saying that she
was in jail over an improper lane change.

She`d been given this bail that she thought was a bit unreasonable, but we
assured her that we would get her out expeditiously. She knew us well
enough to call back and she never called back.

And the last time we heard from her was Saturday, July 11th.

O`DONNELL: And how long had she been in jail by the time she had that
conversation with your sister?

LAMBERT: Roughly --

COOPER: Roughly less than 24 hours, based off of what we were told from
the time she was booked to the time she got the call.

O`DONNELL: Yes, and did she sound calm in that phone call?

COOPER: Very calm, very calm, because she knows -- she knows that we`re
here for her and that if she needs something we`ll get it and she didn`t
call back on Sunday and it`s unfortunate.

O`DONNELL: It`s -- it really is tragic, and again, Sharon Cooper, I can`t
find the words to address your loss, I`m just very sorry. And --

COOPER: Thank you, I appreciate it --

O`DONNELL: Cannon Lambert, thank you very much for joining us and sharing
with us that breaking news about this request.

Is there any question that -- about whether or not you will comply with
this request for a second autopsy?

LAMBERT: I mean --


There is no question --

COOPER: At this point --

LAMBERT: There is -- yes, number one, it would be a third autopsy --

O`DONNELL: Third --

LAMBERT: Yes, you -- it`s hard to get a grasp on how you can say to your -
- to us, you`ve done a full, complete autopsy and now you can have your
loved one.

And then we come and we come and get our loved one and then we do our
autopsy and we`re ready to lay her to rest and then somehow come back and
say, we flubbed up.

O`DONNELL: What about the results of your autopsy? Do you -- did you find
anything in there that clarifies the case?

LAMBERT: Our autopsy is not complete, our results are not complete as --

O`DONNELL: Right --

LAMBERT: You can -- as you well know. We -- much of what will happen is
that our physician will look at the findings that they come to, along with
a whole host of other things.

We have to see the ligature, we haven`t been provided that yet, there is a
whole host of things we have not been provided, that all go into the
completion of our result or the result of the autopsy that was
independently obtained.

And that will probably be a couple, two, three weeks.

O`DONNELL: Again --

LAMBERT: You know --

O`DONNELL: Thank you both very much for joining us tonight. And Sharon
Cooper, again, I`m very sorry for your loss.

COOPER: Thank you.

LAMBERT: Thank you, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, Joy Reid will join us from Texas with more about the
death of Sandra Bland and the breaking news we`ve just received about the
county`s request to do a second autopsy because the autopsy they performed,
they now say was faulty.


O`DONNELL: We have breaking news here that was just made -- created here
in the last block where the attorney for Sandra Bland`s family says that he
has just gotten a text from the Waller County Assistant District Attorney
asking to perform another autopsy on Sandra Bland`s body because the
District Attorney is saying the autopsy performed by the county is faulty.

We`re going to have more on this after a break.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to leave, you need to leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can`t hear you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need to leave --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Am I on public property?


O`DONNELL: Joining us now, Msnbc national correspondent Joy Reid who is in
Hempstead, Texas, tonight, Carmen Roe, Defense Attorney in Houston, Texas,
and Nicole DeBorde, a former prosecutor in Harris County, Texas.

Joy Reid, I just want to get your reaction to the breaking news we just
developed on the show that the D.A. there has requested a second autopsy
because the D.A. is saying the first autopsy that they did is faulty.

JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that was actually really
stunning to hear, Lawrence.

Because you have to set the context here that tonight the District Attorney
for Waller County was on another network, on television, essentially
leaking portions of the autopsy that per the family and the attorney, the
District Attorney`s office itself is now saying it`s not valid.

So, you have within a two-hour span approximately, the same District
Attorney`s office leaking information about Sandra Bland that you could say
would go to the theory of suicide that`s being advanced by the Waller
County police.

And at the same time, texting the family and saying, by the way, we need
the body back because the autopsy was no good. Well, then, why are they
releasing selective information from it.

Why not just release the whole thing? Well, now, we`re getting the
information as to perhaps why we`re not getting the entire autopsy because
they want to -- I don`t know, replace it, retract it.

That is incredibly stunning, I`ve never heard of anything like that before.

O`DONNELL: Nicole DeBorde, as a former prosecutor in that area, guide us
through this. I don`t -- I have never heard of this kind of thing where
the prosecutor asking to do a second autopsy because they made mistakes in
the first one.

mean, and first of all, you don`t leak part of it. You either decide to
release the autopsy or you don`t. So, I`m not really sure what the theory
is there.

But it`s very unusual that you would go back and ask for yet another
autopsy, especially after you already agreed to allow the body to be

Hopefully, they`ll go up and actually allow the doctors to use a facility
there in Chicago as opposed to having her sent back here. It`s very
strange, it`s very disappointing.

They`ve already released a video that have problems, now they`re telling us
that they`ve got an autopsy that has problems. I really don`t understand
what it is that`s happening over there.

O`DONNELL: Carmen Roe, have you ever heard of one of these instances
before, where a D.A. says, oh, we`ve made some mistakes in the first
autopsy, we`d like to do it again.

CARMEN ROE, ATTORNEY: No, it`s very unusual, but you know, it`s just one
more mistake that`s been made in Waller County which is every bit the
reason why we need the DOJ.

We need the FBI to get involved and we need someone else to oversee this
investigation -- if not, take it over, so we can have some confidence in
the outcome and save this family from further furthering their pain.

O`DONNELL: And Joy Reid, I`ve been reading these police documents,
especially the one that came out today with these check marks on it.

And I just want to clarify for the audience, Sandra Bland doesn`t write
anything on these forms, her signature does not appear on these forms.

These are just boxes checked by someone there at the police station and
it`s all handwritten, there is certainly no computer code on it or anything
that would indicate an actual time stamp.

And so, to be absolutely certain as to when this form was filled out,
whether it was filled out at what -- at the time that they suggest it was
or whether it was filled out after her death, that`s not something we can
be certain of.

REID: Right, it`s not certain, and I think it`s really important that you
made that point, Lawrence, because I think that in the media, we`re
accustomed to just receiving documents from police agencies and then making
that the official narrative of the story without really interrogating it

That`s the official statement. But keep in mind the trooper Encinia who in
this case, you can see from the 49-minute video or the one they said it was
glitchy, that was a little bit shorter.

That he literally escalated that situation based on asking Sandra Bland if
she would like to put out her cigarette and when she said she would not, he
then immediately orders her out of the car.

But the cigarette part of that encounter, the part about her not refusing
to put out a cigarette, which was the reason she was taken out of the car.

And then the part about the trooper pulling his taser and essentially
threatening to "light her up", none of that was in trooper Encinia`s own
police report.

So, if you just go by the sort of blunt narrative that`s in trooper
Encinia`s police report, you don`t even get the full picture that emerges
on the dashcam video.

So, I think there are enough discrepancies here, where you have to take
everything with the grain of salt, no matter what the written document is.

And again, any leaks out of the District Attorney`s office alluding to an
autopsy that now, the same office is saying is invalid. There`s so much
here that doesn`t add up and I think you`ve got really nothing but
questions at this point.

O`DONNELL: I want to look at the dashcam video once again at the first
moment where the officer tells Sandra Bland that she is under arrest.


ENCINIA: Get out of --

BLAND: Don`t touch --

ENCINIA: The car --

BLAND: Don`t touch me, I`m not under arrest, you don`t have the right to
touch (INAUDIBLE) --

ENCINIA: You are under arrest.


O`DONNELL: Now, Nicole DeBorde, there she is, she`s in the car, she`s
behind the wheel, he tells her that she`s under arrest. He says it twice
actually when she is still in the car on the video.

In his police report, his written report, he says the arrest did not occur
until well after she was out of the car several minutes after what we just

This video directly contradicts his police report.

DEBORDE: Well, absolutely. And it also appears to contradict the facts.
I mean, he is telling this woman that she`s under arrest when really, we
haven`t seen any possible lawful reason that she could actually be under
arrest at this point.

He is actually the one escalating this circumstance as was mentioned
earlier. He should have training to deescalate this kind of a
circumstance, not to make it worse.

O`DONNELL: And Carmen Roe, as we see what is in effect, kind of an
argument about the law developing between the officer and Sandra there --
she`s right.

Everything she is saying back to him is actually more legally grounded than
what he is saying.

ROE: That`s exactly right, Lawrence. And just like what you said earlier,
this stop was illegal. And I think that what they need to do is spend less
time worrying about how Sandra might have caused her death and a little bit
more time focusing on how Texas could have prevented it.

And perhaps, even looking into what Nicole discussed, which is the
potential offensive official oppression.

I mean, this officer suggested that he was arresting Sandra and attempted
to yank her out of the car, knowing that he had no lawful authority to do

And in Texas, that`s a crime. And so I think we might need to spend some
time looking into that as well.

O`DONNELL: All right, we`re covering the breaking news situation tonight
just revealed on this program that the District Attorney in Texas is asking
for a second autopsy on Sandra Bland.

Because the District Attorney is saying that the first autopsy that they
performed, he`s now saying that, that autopsy is faulty. We will be right
back with more on this.



telling us that they now are going to need to do a second autopsy, because
their first autopsy was defective. How is this family supposed to feel
confident in the way that this is being handled, and in the suggestion as
to how Sandy died?


O`DONNELL: We are back with MSNBC National Correspondent Joy Reid, who is
in Texas tonight. Also with us Carmen Roe, an attorney in Houston and
Nicole Deborde, former prosecutor, who is also joining us from Texas.

Joy Reid this is the breaking news that just occurred on this program that
the Assistant District Attorney texted the attorney for the family saying
the autopsy that they did is defective and they want to do a second
autopsy. Has the District Attorney`s office commented publicly on this

JOY REID, MSNBC NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: There is been no public comment
yet, Lawrence. But, I did just get off the phone with an assistant
District Attorney, whose name is Warren Diepram (ph) who said, "He is the
ADA that handling the forensic side of this investigation, saying that he
was not aware of a text to that effect.

But what they are saying is that they are attempting to convey that they
want a whole new autopsy, but that text may have been meant to convey that
there might be certain forensic material on or in the body that might be
useful to the investigation and that, that material if it is in there
should be preserved in some way.

So, we are still trying to find out what that means, whether they are
saying the body should not be embalmed, whether they are saying the body
should not be -- it was not clear. I was not able to complete the phone
call, because we were coming back.

But, that is what this particular Assistant District Attorney was saying,
not being able to tell you who texted the attorneys for the family. I
cannot tell you if it is the same person.

But this ADA is attempting to clarify, saying they are not requesting a new
autopsy that in the words of this particular ADA, the autopsy in Harris
County, Texas has been done. It is finalized. It is not faulty per this

O`DONNELL: Carmen Roe, that sure sounds like a faulty autopsy to me, even
though the ADA is trying to say it is not faulty. We just left some
material there that we should have collected and did not. That is one of
the definitions of a faulty autopsy.

ROE: Absolutely, Lawrence. I mean it would be funny if it was not so
tragic what is going on in this case. Again, you know, this Harris County
autopsy, yes, but it is Waller County officials over and over again.

And, this is why we need to have some superior individuals that are
separate, that are unbiased, that are outside of Waller County, Texas,
handling this investigation. Because you cannot have confidence in these
types of results.

O`DONNELL: Nicole Deborde, it sounds like Waller County just is not up to
handling this kind of case?

DEBORDE: It certainly does appears that they are in a little bit over
their heads at this point. And, the reality is that one of their own --
this event occurred in their county and in their jail.

I think for the public to have confidence in whatever the results are of
this investigation, there probably does need to be some outside oversight,
just so that someone can be taking part in, or leading the investigation
that does not have a dog in the hunt.

O`DONNELL: And, Joy, what about the FBI`s role in this? Is that -- might
that be enhanced after a night like this -- this ridiculous string of

REID: Well, that is, actually, one of the -- definitely one of the reaches
out that I want to make it to the Justice Department to see if this
changes, because as of now, Lawrence, this is just an observation.

And, when we see these cases happen, before what happens is the Feds will
observe and they will sort of exist parallel to the local or state
investigation. They do not jump right in and take it over. Although many
times you see the families after that.

That happened in the Michael Brown case, where the family and the community
wanted the Feds to take over. That is not usually the way it works. At
the moment the FBI is monitoring and observing the state and local
investigation. We will see if all of these kind of confusion changes that.
But, at this moment the FBI is not the active investigating party.

O`DONNELL: Joy Reid, Carmen Roe, Nicole Deborde, thank you all very much
for joining us on this breaking news tonight. Thank you.

Up next, Donald Trump versus the Republican Party.



O`DONNELL: 60 years ago, Republican Senator Joseph McCarthy was
terrorizing Washington by throwing around wild accusations about communists
working in the government.

The most memorable moment of McCarthy`s unhinged crusade, which eventually
brought him down, came to be known -- in that crusade came to be known as
McCarthyism. The most memorable moment is when Joseph Welch interrupted
the senator at a hearing to say this.


Let us not assassinate this land further. You have done enough. Have you
no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?


O`DONNELL: And, today in Washington, Rick Perry took on Donald Trump and
Trumpism and asked the question of Donald Trump - "Have you no sense of
decency, sir?"


television star, is a great generator of ratings. But Donald Trump the
candidate is a sore of division, wrongly demonizing Mexican-Americans for
political sport. The sore of discord, agitation, thrives on division.
Scapegoats certain elements of society and offers empty platitudes and

He is without substance, when one scratches below the surface. He offers a
barking carnival act that can best be described as Trumpism. A toxic mix
of demagoguery and mean spiritedness and nonsense that will lead the
Republican Party to perdition if pursued.

Let no one be mistaken, Donald Trump`s candidacy is a cancer on
conservatism and it must be clearly diagnosed, excised and discarded.
Donald trump is the modern day incarnation of the no nothing movement. He
espouses nativism, not conservativism.

I will not go quiet when the cancer conservatism threatens to metastasize
into a movement of mean spirited politics that will send the Republican
Party to the same place it sent the wit party in 1854, the graveyard. As a
veteran, I took offense on his attack on Senator McCain. And, I found
lacking Trump`s defense that he had spent a lot of money on veteran`s

Donald Trump was born into privilege. He received deferments to avoid
service in Vietnam. He breathes the free air. Thousands of heroes died
protecting. And, he could not have endured it for five minutes, what John
McCain endured for five and a half years.


But most telling to me about Mr. Trump`s bombast, his refusal to show any
remorse for his comments about Senator McCain. And, was more telling to me
was his admission that there is not a single time in his life that he
sought the forgiveness of God. A man too arrogant, too self absorbed, to
seek God`s forgiveness is precisely the type of leader John Adams prayed
would never occupy the White House.

When a candidate under the republican banner would have abandoned the
traditional magnanimous leadership of the presidency; when he would seek to
demonize millions of citizens; when he would stoop to attack P.O.W.S for
being captured, I can only ask as Senator Welch did of Senator McCarthy,
have you no sense of decency, sir? My fellow republicans, beware of false
prophets. We must move past the empty calories of Trumpism and return to


O`DONNELL: Republicans versus Donald Trump next with jonathon allen and
April Ryan.


PERRY: As a supporter of socialized medicine, the stimulus package and
Hillary Clinton, Mr. Trump is quite suited to follow the Democrat example.


O"DONNELL: Joining us now, April Ryan, the White House Correspondent and
Washington Bureau Chief for American Urban Radio Networks. She is author
of the book, "The Presidency in Black and White." Also, joining us,
Jonathon Allen, Chief Political Correspondent for Vox.

April Ryan, your reaction to Rick Perry`s speech today. This was clearly a
very deliberate, written, strategic decision to go out there and just
hammer right at Donald Trump.

APRIL RYAN, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You are right. It is strategic,
but let us go back a little bit. I think it was the best thing for Rick
Perry that Donald Trump attacked him this week, talking about wearing
glasses and looking smart, things of that nature, because now Rick Perry
has able to put a little bit of the spotlight on himself by throwing the
spotlight on Donald Trump.

I mean it is like one dot follows the other. So, I think Rick Perry got
his moment in the sun to stand out and say, "OK, we do not like Donald
Trump." Now, it is time for Rick Perry to talk about what it is to be
president. What he wants to do to be president.

He got a little bit of spotlight on him now, but it is time to move on.
And, that is part of the problem with Donald Trump. We are hearing all of
these things and we are not hearing the substance behind it.

You know, "We are going to bring back business." We are going to -- but
how are you going to do that? You know, "We need to deal with illegal
immigrants and deal with the border issue." How are you going to do that
beyond saying that Mexico should pay for the fence or a wall.

O`DONNELL: Jonathan Allen, are we approaching a spot -- as I listen to
Rick Perry I began to wonder, are we approaching a spot where the test of
seriousness for Republican presidential candidates is a speech like that.

A speech that goes directly to and dismantles Donald Trump and shows that
you are not afraid of Donald Trump and in effect declares the Republican
candidate giving that speech to be a real Republican and Donald Trump is
not the real Republican.

think the silver lining for the Republican Party here a year and a half
before the actual election is that Donald Trump is by contrast showing how
serious some of these candidates for the presidency really are.

He is helping them prove that. I think a lot of them were very slow and
weak in condemning his remarks on Mexican immigrants. But, we saw from
Rick Perry tonight -- I mean earlier today was an opportunity to do that,
to show contrast, to be serious, to set himself up.

You know, there is a certain percentage of the Republican Party, that is
not a small party, that would like to see Donald Trump go away. If Rick
Perry wants to be one to be point of that spear, I think it will be
beneficial for him whether or not, he ends up being president of the United
States. I think there will be a lot of people in the party that are very
happy with him.

O`DONNELL: And, April, this is the -- traditionally, this is the unserious
part of the campaign for republican voters, certainly in their responses to
pollsters in 2007 in July at this point. Rudy Giuliani was way out at the
top of the polls with 34 percent, way higher than Donald Trump is now --
Last time around, the last cycle, 2011, Michele Bachmann was the front
runner of the polls. She was a point ahead of Mitt Romney at this point.
And, so, this, as we look at these polls now, the ones that show Donald
Trump on top, they just seem like the old Rudy Giuliani polls.

RYAN: You know what happens when you peak early. You peak too early and
then you kind of fall along the wayside. But, Donald Trump, I have a
feeling, he is going to be the gift that keeps giving. He is going to find
a way to reinvent himself.

And, this is a man who has done this quite a lot in his political -- in
his business career, now political career. So, I think that we are going
to see the next crucial point for these 16 contenders to include Donald
Trump will be the debates, where there are ten people standing up.

And, I believe Donald Trump will have a binder of, I guess, skeletons in
his binder for every candidate that is on the stage -- 10 candidates, to
make himself stand out and to do what he did, like he did to Senator Graham
with the phone. Giving out his phone number.

So, I believe Donald Trump will continue to reinvent himself. When he is
down in the polls all he has to do is throw out a negative bone and people
are waiting to see this reality T.V.

O`DONNELL: Jonathon Allen, every campaign strategist in the republican
campaigns knows the biggest headline the day after that first debate is
going to be who hit Donald Trump the hardest.


ALLEN: Absolutely. And, they will be looking to do it in a way that does
not show them to be angry. I mean one of the problems here is -- I sort of
liken this recently to Donald Trump trolling the Republican Party.



ALLEN: I mean he keeps sounding like he is serious, and nobody really
thinks that he thinks that he is going to win the republican nomination;
but what he is doing is baiting these guys in to anger in some cases. We
saw that with Lindsey Graham before he put out the funny commercial.

I think this is a problem for them on the debate stage. I think the debate
is unpredictable. That is going to be a mess. It is going to be a little
chaotic and somebody could emerge from that debate as being just right on.

O`DONNELL: yes. We cannot wait for it. April Ryan, Jonathon Allen, thank
you both very much for joining us tonight.

When we come back, more on the breaking news tonight about the district
attorney requesting a second autopsy on the body of Sandra Bland.



telling us that they now are going to need to do a second autopsy, because
their first autopsy was defective. How is this family supposed to feel
confident in the way that this is being handled, and in the suggestion as
to how Sandy died?


O`DONNELL: Back with us now MSNBC National Correspondent Joy Reid in
Texas. Joy, we now have the wording of the text that went to the lawyer
representing the family about this second autopsy. And, it says that they
need to have the body, quote, "Available for future examination by
qualified experts." That means a second autopsy.

REID: Or at minimum it means preserving the body, whatever the
interpretation of what that means, because as the attorney was saying, they
have a funeral planned. And, by its very definition embalming and burying
a body would wipe away any forensic evidence.

So, it seems as if even the clarification that I also got from the
Assistant District Attorney, that text from the D.A. This is the Assistant
District Attorney in Harris county was saying that they were not saying
they want another autopsy. What the ADA was saying is that they want to
have the forensic evidence on and in the body preserved.

The big question there is, does that mean that they are saying the family
cannot bury Sandra Bland`s body, because, again, by definition, they would
be destroying the evidence. So, it is very confusing at this point. But,
this A.D.A told me that the Harris County autopsy, as far as he is
concerned. He is handling the forensics was not flawed and is complete.

O`DONNELL: There is no question that what they are asking for in the text
to the attorney representing the family -- there is no question that they
are asking for a second autopsy because the words they use are, "Future
examination by qualified experts."

Now, they are in such chaos there tonight at D.As office that they have put
out a statement on Facebook saying, "We have not requested a second
autopsy. The first autopsy was conducted properly. Those statements are
false." These two things cannot be true. This text is a request for a
second autopsy. This latest statement is saying they do not need a second
autopsy. This D.A`s office is out of control tonight.

REID: Well, and then the other part of it that we need to get in to is the
idea the D.A. would go public with elements of the autopsy at all, without
releasing the full autopsy, so that the media, so that the family, so that
everyone can examine the full result.

What you have tonight was a selective leak of part of an autopsy that we
are now hearing was not enough, at least in some way, according to the D.A.
and it is complete confusion as far as I am concerned.

O`DONNELL: Well, there is going to be a lot more on it tomorrow. Joy
Reid, thank you very much for staying with us tonight. Chris Hayes is up


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