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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, July 23rd, 2015

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Date: July 23, 2015
Guest: Beto O`Rourke, Anthony Finnell, Dave Weigel, Hassan Shibly


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN --

the illegals.

HAYES: Donald Trump storms the border and holds court next to a
woman`s restroom.

TRUMP: I`m the one that brought up the problem of illegal immigration
and it`s a big problem.

HAYES: Tonight, the Republican front runner`s wild day in Texas and
why Trump`s ugly rhetoric on immigration is hardly unique to Donald Trump.

Then --

SANDRA BLAND: I`m still just at a loss for words, honestly, about
this whole process. How does switching lanes with no signal turn into all
of this?

HAYES: New questions about the death of Sandra Bland as officials
release an autopsy.

And the owner of a Florida gun shop who declared his store a Muslim-
free zone in the wake of Chattanooga and the local Muslim leader who wants
to talk some sense into him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s confident that he can sway my opinion on

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

Donald Trump, the man who is leading in the polls of the Republican
presidential race, the man who said the Mexican government is sending
rapists and criminals to U.S., Donald Trump today went to the U.S./Mexico
border, specifically to the town of Laredo, Texas, which is 96 percent
Latino, in an attempt to substantiate his claims. His non-apology tour was
exactly the sort of circus you would expect.

Trump claimed he was welcomed warmly.


TRUMP: You know, I have -- we just landed and there were a lot of
people at the airport and they were all waving American flags and they were
all in favor of Trump and what I`m doing. I mean, virtually everyone we
saw, there was such a great warm -- I was actually surprised.


HAYES: Reality, according to NBC`s Katy Tur who was there, most of
the small crowd that greeted Trump were either media or protesters you see
here who chanted things like, "dump Trump."

Trump had been supposed to tour the border with Border Patrol agents.
But shortly before his visit, the local branch of the union of Border
Patrol agents pulled out citing careful consideration of all factors
involved, as well as conversations with the union at the national level.


TRUMP: They`re petrified and they`re afraid of saying what`s
happening. And, you know, they`re the ones that invited me. They wanted
to give me an award. And the Border Patrol, they`re petrified of saying
what`s happening because they have a real problem here and I`m talking
about the whole border. And they invited me and then all of a sudden they
were told silencio. They want silence.


HAYES: Trump, who wore a hate reading "make America great again", has
been calling for a massive fence along the border that he insists Mexico
would pay for, a fence that experts say would cost tens of billions of
dollars and be a nightmare to attempt to build because of rugged terrain
and private land rights, and offer no guarantee of fewer undocumented
immigrants entering the U.S.

At one point, he called to the microphone, Laredo City Manager Jesus
Olivares, who Trump called tremendous and said he planned to steal to run
something for him. Then, Olivares, who presumably knows the border pretty
well, was asked about Trump`s planned border wall.


JESUS OLIVARES, LAREDO CITY MANAGER: We don`t think that`s necessary
at this time. I think there`s other ways that we can work together with
the federal government. I think right now, we have a process and we work
together with Border Patrol, CBP, and everybody to be able to get some of
these things done.


HAYES: As for Trump, he said he`d come to the border simply to do his
duty as an American despite what he called the great danger he faced.


TRUMP: They say it`s a great danger but I have to do it. I love the
country. There`s nothing more important than what I`m doing.

And I`m the one that brought up the problem of illegal immigration.
And it`s a big problem. It`s a huge problem. You folks know it better
than anybody.

And you look at the crowds outside. We have crowds who are all
screaming in favor of Trump.


HAYES: Joining me now, Steve Kornacki, the host of "UP WITH STEVE
KORNACKI", which airs weekends at 8:00 a.m. here on MSNBC.

Look, here`s the calculus. There is a significant portion of the
Republican primary electorate and of the American electorate. It`s not
enough to win the majority. But there`s, you know, 15 percent, 20 percent
of people who are upset about immigration.

And you can -- there is hay to be made in just catering to them.

he`s tapping into two things right now, and this is -- it`s primarily a
movement within the Republican Party. One, obviously, as you say is
immigration, and this is something that goes back a long ways on the
conservative side. We`ve seen other politician who is tapped into this
sort of thing before.

He`s matching it up, though, also with this outsiders, anti-
establishment, anti-system, anti-Washington, D.C. rage that, you know,
every politician talks about how Washington is broken. But a lot of voters
out there, a lot of the same voters, and a lot of voters sort of on the
right and certainly others outside the right too, but a lot on the right,
feel that Washington and the Republican Party has just totally sold them
out. That there are changes taking place in this country that the
Democrats are forcing on them and the Republicans will not stand up and
fight the Democrats.

So, Trump when he makes these blistering personal attacks on John
McCain, on Lindsey Graham, when he calls out by name these leaders, and
they say, oh, he`s breaking the rules of politics, well, what that sounds
like that to that base -- this is something we`ve never heard before.

HAYES: So, this is my question. When you -- OK. If we`re going to
talk about him seriously as a candidate, right, there appears to be no
campaign infrastructure as far as I can tell. No one is printing signs, no
one`s running advance, I think there`s organizers doing any work, like I
guess the question is, is it possible to run this way without those things?

KORNACKI: It shouldn`t be.


KORNACKI: It shouldn`t be. Two things should not be possible here
long-term. One is what you said.

The second thing is the fact that he`s basically improvising. He`s
making this up as he goes along. So, this whole immigration kick is he`s
shooting his mouth off at the beginning of the campaign, he said some stuff
about Mexicans. The next thing he knows, he`s in hot water and he plays it
for what it`s worth.

He said, oh, no. He`s defiant.


KORNACKI: Throwing it back in their faces. Now he`s got an issue and
got a constituency.

So, typical rules of politics say this should not be able to last.

The one thing I say is different about Donald Trump, the variable here
that we really haven`t seen before is when he does something like the
attack on John McCain the other day and the entire media in the entire
political world, including the Republican establishment, comes crashing
down on him, every other politician I`ve seen will back off to some degree
there, will concede, hey, maybe my tone was off. Maybe I could have
phrased it differently. I apologize if anyone was offended.

He accepts no blame, no responsibility and immediately turns it around
and says, I have nothing to apologize. You`re the one who should be
apologizing. I`ve never seen that kind of defiance in the face of that
kind of storm. I`m curious how far he can go here.

HAYES: Do you think he has that party over the barrel with the threat
that is floating out there that to run as an independent in the actual

KORNACKI: I mean, look, July of 2015 right now. It`s hard to see --
it`s like the guy in a marathon with a great first mile and he`s got 25
more to go.

HAYES: Right.

KORNACKI: But this is one of those -- there`s two things I could see
here. What we`re really talking about is, it`s analogous to Pat Buchanan.

HAYES: Right.

KORNACKI: And Pat Buchanan had enough to win the New Hampshire
primary in 1996. The minute it became Buchanan-Dole, two-way race,
Buchanan stayed where he was and Dole is out everybody else.

HAYES: I`ll never forget being a kid and watching the footage of the
people with the hammers in New Hampshire destroying a Japanese car. Do you
remember that? That was like some crazy, crazy stuff.

KORNACKI: So, with Buchanan and Trump, it`s very similar here. You
have like nativism and economic nationalism kind of merged together. But
this is not Tea Party in the sense of -- this is Trump saying I want health
care for people, our people, is what he`s saying. But it`s a weird

HAYES: The Pat Buchanan president is a great one. I forgot. Of
course, he won New Hampshire. Oh my God. And that petered out.

Steve Kornacki, it`s always a pleasure, man. Thanks.

KORNACKI: Sure. Nice to see you.

HAYES: Donald Trump is not some outlier in the Republican Party. His
stance on Mexican immigrants is largely in line with what you hear across
the GOP, and particularly the conservative media, as well as from
Republican base.

FOX News poll last week found that 68 percent of Republican primary
voters believe Trump is right in his suggestion that the Mexican government
is sending criminals and rapists to the U.S. Indeed, Trump`s trip to
survey the supposedly incredibly dangerous border is a standard stuff for
GOP politicians, including former Texas Governor Rick Perry who despite
partially criticizing Trump`s rhetoric posed for this tough guy picture at
the border last summer with Sean Hannity.

We saw the results today when the GOP-led House passed what Democrats
derisively termed the "Donald Trump Act", a bill to withhold some federal
grants to so-called sanctuary cities, those are cities that have policies
that don`t force their local law enforcement to also police federal
immigration laws.

This afternoon, moments after he cast a vote against that bill, I
asked Representative Beto O`Rourke, a Democrat from Texas who represents a
border district, to responds to Trump`s comments today.


REPORTER: You keep saying there`s a danger but the crime on the
border is down, what danger are you talking about?

TRUMP: There`s great danger with the illegals. We were discussing
that. But we have a tremendous danger on the border with the illegals
coming in.


HAYES: Tremendous danger along the border. You live on the border.
You represent the border. Is he right?

REP. BETO O`ROURKE (D), TEXAS: No, he`s not. El Paso, Texas, the
community I represent, is the safest city in America. It has been for the
last four years. And what I try to share with people and I want to share
it with Mr. Trump is that is in large part because of and not spite of the
large number of immigrants who come to El Paso and the fact that we`re
conjoined with Ciudad Juarez in Mexico forming the largest binational
community anywhere in the world.

And we`re also not an anomaly. You look at Laredo, Texas, you look at
San Diego, California, or you look at an immigrant city like New York City,
they`re all far safer than the average American city that`s not on the
U.S.-Mexico border. So, he`s got the facts all wrong on this one. But I`m
glad he`s at the border, and maybe he`ll learn the truth while he`s there.

HAYES: Well, this is an important, too, because I`ve had you on this
program to talk about this before. How different is what Trump is saying
from what your Republican colleagues and conservatives have been saying for
years? It doesn`t strike me to be different at all.

O`ROURKE: You know, it`s interesting. I was at an event last night
with the wife of a senator and we were talking about Trump. And I was, of
course, saying this is ridiculous, what she`s saying about Mexicans and

And she told me, listen, he speaks for a lot of us in this country who
are genuinely afraid of Mexico, Mexicans, and the border. So, what he says
resonates. There`s a reason he`s polling at the top of the field in the
Republican primary right now.

My challenge and your challenge as a journalist is to make sure that
we share the facts and truth about the border. And that the U.S. side of
the U.S./Mexico border is safer than the average American City, that last
year we had 480,000 apprehensions. And that`s with the asylees and
migrants from Central America, 480,000 last year compared to 1.6 million 15
years ago.

The border has never been safer than it is today. We`ve never spent
more money. We`ve never had more Border Patrol. El Paso, the largest city
on the border, has never been safer.

So, any fact that Mr. Trump would choose to look at would contradict
completely the narrative that he`s telling. But unfortunately, what he
says resonates with anxieties and fears that people have about the border,
about Mexico, about Mexican-Americans, which is absolutely unfortunate.

But I think this is an issue where given enough rope, he`s going to do
far more damage to himself, to the party, and to that whole narrative than
I could ever change by the facts I`m sharing with you.

So, I think this is one where we`re happy to allow this to play out
and for Mr. Trump to continue to talk and stand at the top of the field for
the Republicans in their primary challenge.

HAYES: Final question here. He started with this comment in his
announcement about how Mexico is sending criminals and rapists. There was
a horrific murder in San Francisco shortly thereafter allegedly committed
by a Mexican immigrant. There has been the conservative media and your
Republican colleagues have taken up the torch of making this a front and
center issue.

You just came from a vote. What was vote on? And how do you
understand the continuum between what Mr. Trump is saying and what your
colleagues on the floor of the United States Congress are doing?

O`ROURKE: You know, as my colleague Luis Gutierrez said on the floor
recently, you know, Mr. Trump`s only been a presidential candidate for a
few weeks and he already has a bill on the floor of the House of
Representatives. This is an anti-sanctuary cities so-called bill that
passed largely on Republican votes. I don`t think there were any
Democratic votes. If there were, there were just a few.

And it`s a solution in search of a problem. I`ve already shared with
you how safe the border and border communities are. And immigrant-rich
communities are compared to the national average.

But when you talk to the experts on this, the sheriff of El Paso
County, for example, or big city police chiefs, they tell us they don`t
want to be enforcing federal immigration law because they want the
cooperation of every single person in the community in which they`re trying
to keep people safe, prevent crimes from happening or solve crimes that
have already been committed. When the local population or segment
thereafter fears that law enforcement is going to enforce federal
immigration law or try to determine their immigration status. They don`t
come forward as witnesses. They don`t help prevent crimes or solve those
crimes that have been committed.

So, I defer to the experts, the law enforcement officials, and they
say a bill like this one is a bad idea.

HAYES: Congressman Beto O`Rourke, always imminently sensible on these
issues, thank you very much.

O`ROURKE: Thank you.


HAYES: Still ahead, 2016 posturing for the two presidential
candidates who also sit on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Then, the gun shop owner who declared his business a Muslim-free zone
and the man trying to change that.

But, first, the latest on the Sandra Bland investigation and the heart
breaking call she made from jail.


SANDRA BLAND: They got me here on a $5,000 bond. I`m still just at a
loss for words, honestly, about this whole process. How switching lanes
with no signal turn into all of this, I don`t even know.



HAYES: While the Senate Foreign Relations Committee was holding its
first public hearing on the Iran nuclear deal today, Ted Cruz was across
the street from the White House arguing against the deal at a rally
organized by the Conservative Christian Group Concerned Women for America.


Obama`s weakness and appeasement of the Ayatollah Khamenei increases the
likelihood that millions of Americans, millions of Europeans, millions of
Israelis may die. The best way to avoid military conflict is peace through


HAYES: Now, when protesters from Code Pink showed up and started
interrupting his speech, the presidential candidate took the step of
inviting one of them up to the podium, may have gotten more than he
bargained for.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The entire world is saying this is the best deal
that we`re going to get to stop Iran from getting a nuclear weapon, to
bring about a peaceful settlement of this problem. And what makes you say
as Ted Cruz you know better than all of these countries together? You


HAYES: Fair point.

Things were no less heated at the hearing on Capitol Hill today.
That`s still ahead.


HAYES: Today, some results were released in the official autopsy for
Sandra Bland who died in a Waller County, Texas, jail cell apparently
hanged to death three days into her incarceration. The autopsy, according
to the Waller County assistant district attorney, stated the cause of death
as hanging in the manner of suicide.

There are, however, three ongoing investigations encompassing not only
the circumstances of Bland`s death, but also the incident that led to her
arrest stemming from a failure to signal a lane change.

Indeed on her first day in jail, Sandra Bland left a voice mail
message obtained by the ABC station KTRK Houston which sums up her

hey. This is me, I`m -- I just was able to see the judge. I
don`t really know. They got me set at a $5,000 bond. I`m still just at a
loss for words honestly about this whole process. How did switching lanes
with no signal turn into all of this? I don`t even know. But I`m still
here. So I guess call me back when you can.


SANDRA BLAND`S VOICEMAIL FROM JAIL: Hey, this is me. I`m -- I just
was able to see the judge. I don`t really know, they have me at a $5,000
bond. I`m still just at a loss for words, honestly, about this whole
process. How did this witching lanes with no signal turn into all of this,
I don`t even know. But I`m still here. So I guess call me back when you


HAYES: In presenting findings of the autopsy today, the Waller County
assistant district attorney discussed marks on Bland`s back that could have
been consistent with a knee to the back, but which were not conclusively
so, according to him.


consistent with somebody applying force against her back or with her
applying force against some other object. Which one of those it is, we
can`t say.


HAYES: He also addressed the issue of a possible prior suicide


DIEPRAAM: There were approximately 30 cut marks on her left wrist
which were also in a state of healing. These roughly 30 cut marks were
both in a state of scarring and scabbing indicating that they may have been
placed on her body by roughly two to four weeks prior to her incarceration.


HAYES: Now, a reminder that while Bland indicated in a Waller County
mental health form she had previously considered suicide, she stated pills
as the means of the attempt. There was no mention of cutting herself.

She also indicated on another portion of that form that she was not
suicidal that day, the first day of her incarceration.

The ADA also said marijuana was found to be in Bland`s system but the
results are preliminary and further testing is expected.

Finally, the Waller County jail failed an inspection with regard to a
different inmate hanging a few years ago. A 2012 inspection found that
Waller County did not adequately provide face to face observation every
hour as required by law prior to inmate James Harper Howell`s (ph) suicide
in November of the year.

Joining me now from Hempstead, Texas, is MSNBC national correspondent
Joy Reid.

And, Joy, there is so much about this case that I find troubling and
confusing. What did we learn today from that press conference by the
assistant district attorney?

one thing that we learned is how definitively this part of as you said the
three-part investigation because you have the Texas Rangers doing an
investigation into the death. You also have the Waller County DA, there`s
a separate investigation by the Texas Department of Public Safety into the
traffic stop.

What we learned today is that at least according to the preliminary
autopsy finding, they are saying with a fair degree of certainty that they
found nothing inconsistent with the suicide. The assistant district
attorney spent a lot of time talking about the ligature marks on Sandra
Bland`s body, saying there was nothing that they found, whether it was
looking at her soft palate, looking at the injuries to her neck, the
injuries to the rest of her body that was consistent with any kind of
forced trauma or murder. And that they were instead consistent in their
mind with or at least according to they said to the science with a suicide
-- they talked about the smoothness of the ligature around her neck.

There are a couple of things that are still outstanding however,
though, Chris. They still have to test what they said was the trash bag
that they said was used in the hanging. That still has to have some DNA
and other testing done to it. They still need to do additional blood and
other tests to hair, et cetera because they didn`t test, for instance, to
find out whether she had epilepsy or not, whether or not there were any
drugs of epilepsy in her system. Some of this is not finished yet, but
they are going out ahead with this idea of suicide.

And one other quick thing -- they really have spent a lot of time on
this issue of marijuana. But what we haven`t been able to get answers to
between them and the Waller County sheriff office behind me, I`ve been in
and out of the building, is how it is possible. Because the ADA raised the
possibility she ingested marijuana in jail.

And I`ve spoken with several law enforcement professionals today,
including one in my own family. nobody could tell me they thought that it
was credible, including the guy who`s about to head a commission here on
jail procedures, thought it was at all credible that she could have had any
kind of drugs inside that jail cell.

HAYES: I`m so glad you raised that, because I`ve been confused by
this all day.

I failed to see why the marijuana in her system is germane in any
respect knowing that as we do it stays in the system for a long time,
unless it was ingested in jail, in which case, you have to ask, what kind
of operation are they running down Waller County. I mean every single jail
that I`ve ever been in and places I`ve interviewed, you know, the thing
they do when they do intake, is make sure to search and confiscate

REID: Yes, absolutely. And I spoke with again the same person that
was going to head that commission is a local trial attorney. So, he deals
with this a lot, and essentially said, you come into this jail intake, you
are strip searched. Every person that comes in is strip searched. That`s
why you saw Sandra Bland in that orange jumpsuit. She didn`t have any of
her possessions and have been bodily searched. There`s no way she could
have snuck any drugs into that jail cell, but you had the ADA actually say
you can sneak anything into jail and that she somehow theoretically could
have gotten in jail.

But they said their investigation found none of the inmates in
adjoining cells smelled or heard anything that would indicate that any
drugs were being injected. Now, the same attorney made the point, too,
that as a lot of people who are familiar with marijuana know, it could be
in your system two days, two hours or two weeks.

HAYES: Right.

REID: So, there`s no way to definitely know, and the ADA said, they
have not done a quantitative analysis yet. They`ve done a qualitative
analysis that says that there was THC in her system and then breaks down in
your body to a second compound. They found the compounds but not the

So, they still need to do more screenings to find out what kind of
quantities we`re talking about. And then to your point, what is the
relevancy of that? Because I`ve never heard anyone say that marijuana is
either something that would make you hallucinogenic or violent or include
self-harm. They just said it`s a mind altering drug, anything could sort
of happen.

So, the connections are interesting. And I think they`re made a
little bit more I guess I`ll say odd by the fact that that is what they
leaked --


REID: -- yesterday.

HAYES: Yes, the relevance of this --

REID: About this report that we still don`t have.

HAYES: Let me just say this -- the relevance of this until proven
otherwise is highly suspect to my mind as of now.

MSNBC national correspondent Joy Reid, thank you.

When the supervisor of an independent review board in Chicago found
six cases of unjustified police shootings, was he fired because he refused
to change those findings? More on that story we brought you, next.


HAYES: Brought you a bombshell story on Tuesday night of a 23-year
police veteran who later spent seven years serving on Chicago`s Independent
Police Review Authority, IPRA, which investigates police shooting. And
that man, Lorenzo Davis, said he was fired for refusing to reverse findings
in police shooting cases where he found the shooting to be unjustified.


HAYES: So, are you saying this essentially was rigged, that basically
your supervisors at IPRA were determined to get a finding justified. And
if your team went out and did the leg work and found it to be unjustified
and came back with that, they would say no and overrule you?

LORENZO DAVIS: Yes. That`s exactly what I`m saying.


HAYES: We reached out to the IPRA chief administrator. He responded
with a lengthy statement which reads in part, "A few cases Lorenzo Davis
worked on were found to be incomplete by all three levels of management
above him, all with equal or greater experience because they did not
include all available evidence and in some cases were built on assumptions.
In addition, in some cases, Mr. Davis rejected the recommendations of his
subordinates and told them to change their recommendations."

Now, tonight we have someone else who worked there and left frustrated
with what he saw there. He now works for a similar review board in Oakland

And joining me now Anthony Finnell. He`s executive director of the
Citizen Police Review board in Oakland, California, former supervising
investigator at IPRA in Chicago.

Mr. Finnell, what was your experience of IPRA like?

-- and first let me start out by saying thank you for having me, Chris.
But initially my experience was a pretty good experience at IPRA. I
received a team of investigators and we worked our cases.

I began to have frustrations when particularly with some of our
officer-involved shootings, the evidence didn`t support the officer`s
statements. And then when the investigators tried to present those cases
to close those cases and present those cases with an unjustified finding,
the cases were never pushed through. They would be kicked back or we would
be forced to go out and find further evidence.

HAYES: Let me stop you right there. I want to make sure I`m tracking
this because this is important. When your investigators would go through,
they would look at the evidence and it would start to lead them towards a
finding of unjustified. You felt like you were meeting with resistance as
you were coming towards an unjustified shooting conclusion.

FINNELL: Well, the evidence would contradict the officer`s
statements. The officers would give a statement as to how the event
unfolded. The investigators would find witnesses that countered those
statements or the physical evidence itself would not align with that
evidence -- with those statements.

So, then, when that was presented to the bosses, it was pushed back.
When different scenarios were presented, we got pushback on that. And it
was frustrating, particularly to me, because I had investigated murders as
a police
officer for over ten years. So I -- as a police officer, I knew the
thought process of officers and I also knew how to review evidence and
dissect statements and try to make those align and when they didn`t, I
always followed the evidence.

HAYES: So ultimately you`re feeling you left IPRA was that the
process was not fundamentally independent fair, that there was some bias
throughout the process
in favor of police officers you were investigating.

FINNELL: Yes. Ultimately that was my feeling, because there were
several officers on the Chicago police department that had multiple
complaints against them, and yet they still worked on the agency regardless
of what our investigation showed.

We could not get the states attorney to file charges. We could not
get the police department to discipline them. We could not even get our
agency to support at times the findings against certain officers.

And see and then for me as a police officer, that was extremely
frustrating because I worked with great officers. And I met a lot of great
officers in Chicago. So to have these officers representing law
enforcement was very troublesome to me.

HAYES: Anthony Finnell, thank you very for your time tonight. I
really appreciate it.

FINNELL: Thank you.

HAYES: All right, still ahead, the Florida gun shop owner who
declared his shop a Muslim-free zone and the Muslim who is trying to change
his mind. He joins me live next.


HAYES: In response to last week`s fatal shooting in Chattanooga,
Tennessee, a gun shop owner has declared his gun store a, quote, Muslim-
free zone. 28-year-old Andy Hallinan made the declaration over the weekend
in front of a Confederate flag.


ANDY HALLINAN, GUNSHOP OWNER: Now I have a moral and legal
responsibility to ensure the safety of all patriots in my community. And
so effective immediately I`m declaring Florida Gun Supply as a Muslim-free
zone. I will not arm and train those who wish to do harm to my fellow

The jihadists said they would do it and they have. They said they`d
live among us and they do. We must be prepared, vigilant, and equipped to
handle any situation that might come our way.


HAYES: The video garnered lots of attention, widespread condemnation,
but also one good faith offer. Hassan Shibly, he`s executive director of
the Florida chapter of the Council on American Islamic Relations or CAIR,
reached out to Hallinan and offered to teach him about the Koran.

Originally, it looked like the two had made a breakthrough. Hallinan
actually agreed to host the Muslim leader at his shop, even telling Reuters
Shibly is a really wonderful guy who I would consider a friend at this
point and I think he would say the same about me.

A great story of an ideological odd couple uniting to try and set an
example of tolerance and understanding. Until...


HALLINAN: I had no idea what I was getting myself into. When I was
contacted by the Council for American Islamic Relations, I offered them to
come meet at Florida Gun Supply.

Thankfully hundreds of e-mails poured in with links and information
about who this organization is. And I cannot in good faith meet with them
and certainly cannot train with them.


HAYES: Hallinan posted this video to Facebook today explaining a
conspiracy theory that you`ll find on the internet about CAIR having links
to terror groups. The meeting is officially off which is unfortunate.

What is also unfortunate is that Andy Hallinan had agreed to come on
this show with Hassan Shibly until Andy canceled on us late this evening.

But still joins us is Hassan Shibly, executive director of Florida
chapter on the Council on American Islamic Relations.

Hassan, what motivated you when you saw this video to actually reach
out to this guy and try to start a conversation?

HASSAN SHIBLY, FLORIDA CAIR: Well, the video really hurt. I mean, it
hurt as an American before it hurt as a Muslim. I would be so saddened to
hear a Jewish-free zone or black-free zone, or a white-free zone. And
especially being a practicing Muslim to hear about a Muslim-free zone. I
don`t want my children to
think that there`s any place that`s off limits to them because of their
faith. That`s why we came to America to seek religious freedom and liberty
that so many people throughout the world with denied.

And I want my children to grow up in a free and just country. And I
believed Andy`s sentiments were very hurtful and un-American. And it was
just very sad to see somebody using a tragedy like what happened in
Chattanooga to promote division and make a profit at the expense of
dividing our nation.

And I really believe it`s that fear and hatred that often divides us
as Americans and dialogue is the key to overcoming that. So we hope that
maybe Andy was simply misinformed and that by reaching out to him we can
build bridges of tolerance and strengthen the unity of our nation.

HAYES: So you guys had a conversation. And this strikes me as one of
things that happens all the time, right? People have conceptions about
each other, then they talk as human beings and you think oh wow this is
actually a person and I kind of like him, or he seems amiable enough, maybe
we can get together.

And then this sort of flood comes in, which also to me illustrates the
which is this conviction held by many people that every Muslim or any group
that`s an Islamic group like CAIR must be linked to jihadists, to violent

SHIBLY: Well, that`s no different than minorities faced throughout
this country`s history. There were times all Irish were seen as subversive
and Catholics were seen as only loyal to the pope and that they couldn`t be
trusted. This is just a new hate just facing a new target, this time it
happens to be the Muslim community.

In fact, what scared me the most about Andy`s rhetoric was that it
sounded no different than the Nazi propaganda against the Jewish community
back in Germany 70
years ago where they were promoting these conspiracy theories that Jews are
a threat, that we need to have Jewish-free zones, and that Jews seek to
take over the world and that horrible conspiracy theory that they promoted,
which ultimately led to the holocaust and that the Jewish community could
not be trusted, that they`re all liars and they`re all subversive. And
it`s the same kind of rhetoric that Andy today is promoting and what he did
is he actually brought to light the large anti-Muslim sentiment that some
in this society hold.

I mean, America is the best place in the world to be a Muslim, but
some people are trying to change that unfortunately.

HAYES: Well, so here`s my question. So, you talked to the guy.
You`re going to have a meeting. Now you just sort of referenced the Nazis
in talking about his rhetoric. I mean, is it overcomable, right? That`s
the question. Like, do you continue to hold the faith that like you can
sit down with folks that have
views of you and see you with your head cap and your beard and have
stereotypes about you and that you can have a conversation with them that
breaks through?

HAYES: Absolutely.

I mean, I often have to remind myself despite the odds that we face
sometimes, that in Islam`s history, some of the greatest Muslims were at
one point Islam`s worst enemies. And it was through dialogue and
interaction and community service that that we were able to build new
friendships and new alliances, and in fact that`s the Koranic spirit,
that`s what the Koran actually teaches us.

The Koran says that bad interaction and good interaction aren`t equal,
respond to evil, respond to negativity, respond to malice with that which
is better. And you will find your worst enemies will turn into your best
friends. But the Koran says this only happens for those who are patient.

So, I think as a community we`ll continue to be patient. We`ll
continue to be gracious and our doors will always be hope. And we still
invite Andy to come and meet his Muslim neighbors, come and see what we are
as his fellow Americans and
fellow human beings. We`re his doctors, his lawyers, his engineers, his
taxicab drivers.

HAYES: Well, I would love if and when that summit happens, I want to
be there or capture it somehow. Hassan Shibly, thank you very much for
joining us

SHIBLY: Absolutely. It`s very important that the world knows that
Andy doesn`t speak for Floridians or Americans and we have gotten a lot of
support against his hateful message. Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Up next, the campaign opportunity to good to pass
up for 2016 Republic hopefuls: a Senate committee meeting on the Iran deal.


SEN. MARCO RUBIO, (R) FLORIDA: The next president is under no legal
or moral obligation to live up to it. The Iranian regime in the world
should know that the majority of members of this congress do not support
this deal and that the deal could go away on the day President Obama leaves



JOHN JENKINS, NASA: In my mind this is the closest thing that we have
to another planet like the Earth. We do know that there`s at least one
experiment in biology that succeeded and is the reason why we`re all here.
So, that`s why I`m particularly excited about this discovery because it is
the closest thing that we have to another place that somebody else might
call home.


HAYES: NASA today announced the discovery of so-called Goldilocks
planet, 1,400 light years away, that has the potential to sustain life.
Known by the, well, unromantic name Kepler 4525-b, the planet is about 60
percent bigger than Earth, it orbits a star at a distance similar to the
Earth`s distance from the sun,
which could mean it could sustain liquid water and it might be the best
match for our own blue marble yet.


HAYES: It was a big day for the senate foreign relations committee
today because all of its members were actually present, and that`s rare
with two of those members, Rand Paul and Marco Rubio, running for
president. They`ve both been caught skipping out on important hearings and
briefings, as Buzzfeed has documented extensively.

But today, knowing the cameras would be there to cover an issue that
will inevitably take center stage in the presidential campaign, senators
Paul and Rubio were both present and accounted for and ready to go at the
three cabinet secretaries testifying in favor of the nuclear deal.

And Rand Paul, whose dad Ron supports the deal, said he favors
diplomacy with Iran, but he didn`t pass up the chance to grill Secretary of
State John Kerry.


SEN. RAND PAUL, (R) KENTUCKY: I want a negotiated settlement. I want
to believe that we could have an agreement, but it troubles us that
immediately the Iranians say the opposite...

JOHN KERRY, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: No. I`m not saying the opposite
of this. In fact, the supreme leader`s quote is in this document that
Iran will never go after a nuclear weapon and the Iranians happily put that


HAYES: And in an intense exchange, Kerry and Rubio sparred over
whether a
future president would, in fact, be able to walk away from the
international agreement.


RUBIO: The Iranian regime and the world should know that this deal is
your deal with Iran. I mean yours, meaning this administration. And the
next president is under no legal or moral obligation to live up to it.

KERRY: I am confident that the next president of the United States
will have enough common sense that if this is being applied properly, if
it`s being implemented fully, they`re not just going to arbitrarily end it.

Nobody has a plan that is articulated that is reasonable as to how you
are going to strengthen this, do something more when the supreme leader of
Iran and president of Iran and others believe they`ve signed an agreement
with the world. And the rest of the world thinks it`s a good agreement.


HAYES: Joining me now, Senator Chris Murphy, Democrat from
Connecticut, who`s a member of the foreign relations committee, took part
in today`s hearing.

And senator, I`ve got to say, I think there are two categories of
critics of this deal. I do think there are some folks who are good faith
critics who basically really do object to certain things that are in the
agreement. I think a lot of the critics are bad faith critics who
basically would not be happy with any negotiated deal, didn`t like the
negotiation from the moment they started, and are now essentially
pretending to have issues with the document as opposed to the entire

Is that a fair characterization?

SEN. CHRIS MURPHY, (D) CONNECTICUT: Of course it`s a fair

And how do we know that? Well, a number of the presidential
candidates came out in opposition to this complex hundred page-plus
agreement within hours of it being announced to the world. It is
impossible to have actually reviewed in a thoughtful way this agreement in
the course of about 90 minutes which about how long it took before a
handful of presidential candidates and my colleagues in the senate came out
and said they would never vote for it.

And of course now you have the sort of fictions of standard review
being set up over and over again. Republicans claim that we were told
there was going to be any time anywhere inspections. Well, that was never
the standard that anyone should have expected here. We never should have
thought Iran is going to let international inspectors walk onto their
military sites without any good reason, without any just cause, without any
process for working it out.

And so there`s just a number of red herrings here that are disguised
for the fact that a good number of my Republican colleagues were just never
ever going to support something that President Obama agreed to.

And for Republican presidential candidates, because of their own
primary politics, they have to trip over each other to seem more
oppositional to this deal
than the next because it`ll draw the extreme right of their party to the

Yeah, there are a handful of Republicans who are looking legitimately
at this, but I wouldn`t trust that we`re going to have many of them voting
for it on the floor of the senate later this summer.

HAYES: Well, that`s my question to what you just said. How much are
presidential primary politics playing into how this is going? Because it
is already is very clearly at the center of that race. It`s the most kind
of concrete
point of unanimity and distinction on policy in the presidential race thus

MURPHY: Well, think about this proposition that has been floated by
virtually every Republican presidential candidate, and Senator Rubio talked
about it today that a Republican president would promise today that they
would walk away from this agreement when they became president
notwithstanding the operation of it for the first year and a half, not only
is that absolutely foolish in that Republicans are saying today that Iran
won`t live up to the agreement. Why wouldn`t you test that proposition
over the next year and a half?

But second, is your first act as president really going to be to thumb
your nose at the entire international community, at not only the Europeans
but the Chinese and the Russians and tell them that we`re walking away from
the most important agreement that they`ve entered into with this country in
the last five to ten years?

No, of course that wouldn`t be what you would do as your signature
opening international move as the next U.S. president. But they`re saying
it only because it speaks to a very thin slice of the Republican base that
unfortunately dominates who gets chosen for the next presidential
nomination on their side.

HAYES: All right. Senator Chris Murphy, thank you so much for
joining us tonight.

MURPHY: Thanks, Chris.

HAYES: There is one presidential candidate who`s flirted with being
honest about the Republican position on the Iran deal. And when he
reiterated it today at a conservative conference, he got a standing
ovation. That`s next.



GOV. SCOTT WALKER, (R) WISCONSIN: Iran is not a place we should be
doing business with as president. I will terminate the deal with Iran on
the very first day, reinstate the sanctions, work with the congress to put
in place more crippling sanctions, and convince our allies to do the same.


HAYES: Scott Walker telling attendees at a conference for the Koch-
backed American Legislative Exchange Council, ALEC, legislation that he
would be prepared to take action against Iran his first day in Oval Office.
He said earlier this week even if that meant a military attack.

Joining me today, Dave Wiegel, national political correspondent for
Washington Post.

Dave, here is why I wanted to have you on. You have chronicled for a
time the kind of libertarian portions of the Republican base. And it
seemed for awhile like there was a change in the center of gravity on
foreign policy in the Republican Party away from more sort of militaristic
posture. That seems gone now. Am I misreading this moment?

DAVE WIEGEL, THE WASHINGTON POST: I don`t think you`re misreading it.
There might have been more of a conversation the Republican Party had.
Rand Paul who does represent that wing stuck to his guns on the Iran deal.
He pretty immediately, as soon as this deal came out, reluctantly came out
against it. I mean, today you saw in committee him speaking more in sorrow
than in anger about it. So it`s a different tone than Scott Walker. He`s
not talking about setting it on fire.

But there`s really no one speaking to this. Even though I do think a
portion of the GOP base believes what you`re saying

HAYES: Yeah. That`s what`s striking to me too. Is that you`ve got
15, 16 people in the race. There is, I think, some portion of that primary
base that would actually go along with someone who said, yeah, I don`t want
to have a war with Iran and I stand for this. And they are not being
served despite the fact there`s this many people in the race.

WEIGEL: When I talk to the libertarians who supported Ron Paul for
the Hill, they did so because he said that. He didn`t care who it
alienated in the Republican primary, because in these early primaries, you
know, you get 20 percent, that`s more substantial than fighting for the
same pie everyone else is fighting for.

So, there`s a bit of confusion among libertarians why no one is saying
this. And they`re totally outgunned. All of the money, all of the
interest on the Republican side is going to be spent against this deal.
There`s really no one speaking out otherwise. A couple of voices like the
American Conservative magazine, but no one in politics..

HAYES: Part of that I think has to do with the kind of donor class
and funding structure on the Republican side in which a lot of the folks
that are going to be a lot of the heaviest hitters financially, Sheldon
Adelson comes to mind, but a lot of others, really, really are worried
about this deal, don`t like this deal, don`t think we should be dealing
with Iranians at all.

WEIGEL: Right. And the Kochs fund some organizations that do take
the opposite position, the Cato Institute for example. But they don`t
really throw
their money at the political action for less interventionist policies.

I mean, they fund Concerned Veterans for America, for example, which
is more involved in politics. The candidates they funded generally have
been more on the
hawkish mainstream of the GOP. And that`s a huge gulf in the libertarian
side of the Republican Party, there`s just not that much money advocating
for policies that again a giant and historically large chunk -- remember it
was of Republicans who
were the isolationists, the anti-interventionists for a very long time.
None of that`s represented in the new Republican Party, the one that`s sort
of shaped by this big money we`re talking about.

HAYES: Where do you see the rhetoric on this going? I mean, this is
going to be a huge battle. It`s going to figure prominently. Right now it
seems like
essentially a unifying theme for all the Republican candidates and
something they think they have the better argument on if and when they get
the general.

HAYES: Well, in a couple of weeks they`re going to debate. The first
Republican debate certainly with Rand Paul who I talked to this week sees
that as the start of the campaign, of the debate that the party should be

Coming back to Paul because if he takes opposite position, we cover it
and without that we don`t cover it. So I think you`re going to see in the
first debate in Cleveland whether or not this becomes an issue, whether
Paul sticks to any kind of guns -- I would say stick to his guns, but
that`s a bit generic and it doesn`t represent this subtle position he`s --
so the debate I think we`ll see.

HAYES: Yeah, we will see. I`m not holding out hope. Dave Weigel,
thank you very much.

That is All In for this evening. The Rachel Maddow Show starts now.


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